TV - question, please don't flame me
[email protected]
OK, for fear of being flamed, I have hesitated in sending this message, but
my curiosity is getting the best of me. I am fairly new to unschooling, I have
been homeschooling for 4 years, and this is my first year of unschooling.
Around our house, TV isn't something we watch a lot of. Yes, we watch a ton of
videos, we have quite a collection of videos, and the kids usually pick videos
of interest to them from the library. My question is for the people that do
not put limits on what their kids watch, and again, please don't flame me, I
am not trying to ask a dumb question and I really hate groups that start
flaming. If your child chooses to watch something along the lines of borderline
pornography, or full blown pornography, do you put an end to that, or are you
letting them watch it or has that not become an issue in anyone's home? I guess
that is something I wouldn't want to walk in and see my kids watching and I
would hope that other parents would feel the same. Again, I am just asking a
question, not trying to start an all out war. Susan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
my curiosity is getting the best of me. I am fairly new to unschooling, I have
been homeschooling for 4 years, and this is my first year of unschooling.
Around our house, TV isn't something we watch a lot of. Yes, we watch a ton of
videos, we have quite a collection of videos, and the kids usually pick videos
of interest to them from the library. My question is for the people that do
not put limits on what their kids watch, and again, please don't flame me, I
am not trying to ask a dumb question and I really hate groups that start
flaming. If your child chooses to watch something along the lines of borderline
pornography, or full blown pornography, do you put an end to that, or are you
letting them watch it or has that not become an issue in anyone's home? I guess
that is something I wouldn't want to walk in and see my kids watching and I
would hope that other parents would feel the same. Again, I am just asking a
question, not trying to start an all out war. Susan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Norma
--- In [email protected], Irsue@a... wrote:
<>If your child chooses to watch something along the lines of
borderline pornography, or full blown pornography, do you put an end
to that, or are you letting them watch it or has that not become an
issue in anyone's home? I guess that is something I wouldn't want to
walk in and see my kids watching and I would hope that other parents
would feel the same. Again, I am just asking a question, not trying
to start an all out war. Susan<>
Susan:
Good question! My daughter has always had the opportunity to watch
movies and occasionally TV where nudity or lovemaking happens. We
have talked about pornography. Easy to do since it comes to most
free email accounts all the time. We have discussed how it uses
women and often denigrates them, turning them into pleasure objects
for men. Yes, I know there are all kinds of variations of
pornography, but 99% of what sells is men using women to satisfy
themselves. And we have talked about and watched some films in which
people make love, usually just a clip within the movie, but if it is
done very well, it can be quite beautiful. I want her to know that
good sex is beautiful and enjoyable for both parties.
So, yes, she is allowed to see these things. More often than not we
watch together. And until recently (she's 16) she did not have much
interest in this type of thing. Now she does, so we watch from time
to time. No, we do not rent adult videos, or even some of the X
rated popular films. She has never expressed an interest in these
and on a few occasions when she has been at friends' homes and they
put these kinds of videos on (mostly teen boys do this) she has left
the room because she did not want to watch. But we have watched
quite a few R movies.
One of my favorite films is a very scary murder mystery titled "Don't
Look Now" with a young Donald Sutherland and Julie Christie. Besides
being so scary my husband won't watch it, it has one of the nicest
love-making scenes in all of filmdom, I think. One of Dd's all-time
favorites is "Pretty Woman," and another is "Flashdance," and yet
another that she has watched many times is "Dirty Dancing." Her most
recent favorites are the French film, "Amelie," and "Center Stage."
All of these have sex scenes, and she loves all of them. And she is
no more inclined to go out and try sex than she was before watching
them.
On the plus side she is not inclined to be interested in any of the
very exploitative TV shows about men and women getting together,
especially these "reality" things that have men selecting women or
women selecting men.
The real bottom-line, however, is time. She really doesn't spend
much of her time in front of a TV. She is a very busy teen, with
hours of figure skating practice each day, a part-tim job at the
library, and many activities in which she is involved. Often she
will start to watch something then drift over to the piano and start
working on a piece she is practicing. Or she will have the TV on
while she is working on her clothing designs, sewing. Or she will
prefer to listen to her favorite CDs, dancing and working out. TV is
just background noise more often than not. So I just don't worry
about it. She has a good head on her shoulders and I think she can
handle whatever comes along. So, yes, we do watch many different
things on TV and on videos, but only when we have time, when we are
so inclined, which is not very often.
Norma
Nanci Kuykendall
Hi! Welcome! I've never seen any flaming on this
list, ever. We're all grown ups here.
do have some movies with pretty explicit love scenes.
Shakepeare in Love is a great example because there is
a lot of very obvious sex in the movie and we watched
it together recently. My son Thomas, who has special
needs that I just went into regarding tv in another
post, has really sophisticated taste in storytelling
and movies. He wants to be a director. He loves
Lawrence of Arabia, Fiddler on the Roof, and
Shakespeare, as well as action movies. So he
specially requested this movie and has been watching
it recently. When we get to the sex parts he hides
his face and/or asks us to fast forward. It's not
ditrubing to him, but he doesn't want to see it. He
says "I know what sex is. It's grownups kissing and
cuddling, and doing other stuff. I don't know what
other stuff, because I am just a kid." But he doesn't
want to watch it, even though he finds merit and value
in the rest of the film. When he watched Franco
Zeferelli's Romeo and Juliet, there is slight nudity
but no overt sex, so he was quite comfortable with
that and watched it about 6 times while we had it from
the library. He'll be 7 in Dec.
Nanci K.
list, ever. We're all grown ups here.
>My question is for the people that do not put limitsWell we don't have any pornography in our home, but we
>on what their kids watch, ....... If your child
>chooses to watch something along the lines of
>borderline pornography, or full blown pornography,
>do you put an end to that, or are you letting them
>watch it or has that not become an issue in anyone's
>home?
do have some movies with pretty explicit love scenes.
Shakepeare in Love is a great example because there is
a lot of very obvious sex in the movie and we watched
it together recently. My son Thomas, who has special
needs that I just went into regarding tv in another
post, has really sophisticated taste in storytelling
and movies. He wants to be a director. He loves
Lawrence of Arabia, Fiddler on the Roof, and
Shakespeare, as well as action movies. So he
specially requested this movie and has been watching
it recently. When we get to the sex parts he hides
his face and/or asks us to fast forward. It's not
ditrubing to him, but he doesn't want to see it. He
says "I know what sex is. It's grownups kissing and
cuddling, and doing other stuff. I don't know what
other stuff, because I am just a kid." But he doesn't
want to watch it, even though he finds merit and value
in the rest of the film. When he watched Franco
Zeferelli's Romeo and Juliet, there is slight nudity
but no overt sex, so he was quite comfortable with
that and watched it about 6 times while we had it from
the library. He'll be 7 in Dec.
Nanci K.
Nanci K.
> One of Dd's all-time favorites is "Pretty Woman," and anotherFunny thing, but my 5 year old son's all time favorite movie (has
>is "Flashdance," and yet another that she has watched many times
>is "Dirty Dancing."
been for about 2 years) is Dirty Dancing (which he calls "Baby"
after Jennifer Grey's character.) He doesn't get squirmy or turn
away from the one real sex scene in the movie, but then it's very
implied and artfully done and not graphic at all. He often says
(like if we're reading a book or watching a show where little boys
say Ewwww! or something about kissing) "I like kissing! Kissing is
nice. So is cuddling." He's very physically affectionate that
way. We call him our Cuddlebug.
But what I think he really loves in that movie is the music, and the
dancing. He wants to sing and dance and play music. It's his
passion. How we wish we could get him a piano!! He's wanted one
since he was 2. You should see how rapt and mezmerized he gets
whenever we are around live music (a fair amount in our artsy
community) and how he makes friends with the musicians and soon has
them showing him notes scooching over on their piano bench for him.
I love the way he lays his palm or his cheek against an instrument
when they let him (bass, piano, guitar, etc) to FEEL the music.
Nanci K.
Shyrley
Irsue@... wrote:
I wouldn't know where to find it on TV (we have sattellite) and at the
moment they wont even watch people holding hands, let alone kissing.
They self-censor.
As they get older maybe they will want to watch films with sexual
content but I imagine that at that age they can make up their own minds.
They may choose never to see it. I'm 34 and have never seen any porn,
nor do I choose to watch it. I like films with plots and special
effects, porn doesn't really have either.
I imagine it will be a non-issue for several years too. When we move
home we will be back to 4 channels, 2 of which are the BBC. Cable and
satellite will be out of our financial reach (waaaaah, no more
Stargate). Maybe they will watch it at someone else's house but the
decision will be there's and not mine.
Shyrley
>OK, for fear of being flamed, I have hesitated in sending this message, butMy kids are 11, 10 and 8. To be honest the issue of porn hasn't come up.
>my curiosity is getting the best of me. I am fairly new to unschooling, I have
>been homeschooling for 4 years, and this is my first year of unschooling.
>Around our house, TV isn't something we watch a lot of. Yes, we watch a ton of
>videos, we have quite a collection of videos, and the kids usually pick videos
>of interest to them from the library. My question is for the people that do
>not put limits on what their kids watch, and again, please don't flame me, I
>am not trying to ask a dumb question and I really hate groups that start
>flaming. If your child chooses to watch something along the lines of borderline
>pornography, or full blown pornography, do you put an end to that, or are you
>letting them watch it or has that not become an issue in anyone's home? I guess
>that is something I wouldn't want to walk in and see my kids watching and I
>would hope that other parents would feel the same. Again, I am just asking a
>question, not trying to start an all out war. Susan
>
>
>
I wouldn't know where to find it on TV (we have sattellite) and at the
moment they wont even watch people holding hands, let alone kissing.
They self-censor.
As they get older maybe they will want to watch films with sexual
content but I imagine that at that age they can make up their own minds.
They may choose never to see it. I'm 34 and have never seen any porn,
nor do I choose to watch it. I like films with plots and special
effects, porn doesn't really have either.
I imagine it will be a non-issue for several years too. When we move
home we will be back to 4 channels, 2 of which are the BBC. Cable and
satellite will be out of our financial reach (waaaaah, no more
Stargate). Maybe they will watch it at someone else's house but the
decision will be there's and not mine.
Shyrley
joylyn
One of the girls on Lexie's soccer team is in special education,
diagnosed LD, has all sorts of problems in school, etc. I suggested the
mom homeschool and she said "Oh no, I couldn't ever sit with her for six
hours a day doing school work, that'd be worse than it is now." So I
spoke with her a bit about unschooling, and how it works. We were at
the pizza party for the team and I was saying how in life there are so
many opportunities to learn and that one doesn't need to learn by doing
worksheets, etc. Janene just then walked up and said "mommy I need more
money." I gave her a dollar. Janene said "No, mommy I need two
dollars, cause one dollar is only four quarters and I need eight
quarters so I need two dollar bills."
After explaining to Janene how we didn't have money to burn on buying
little bouncy balls which are dangerous to the dogs, I turned to the mom
and said 'that's how unschooling works!"
Joylyn
diagnosed LD, has all sorts of problems in school, etc. I suggested the
mom homeschool and she said "Oh no, I couldn't ever sit with her for six
hours a day doing school work, that'd be worse than it is now." So I
spoke with her a bit about unschooling, and how it works. We were at
the pizza party for the team and I was saying how in life there are so
many opportunities to learn and that one doesn't need to learn by doing
worksheets, etc. Janene just then walked up and said "mommy I need more
money." I gave her a dollar. Janene said "No, mommy I need two
dollars, cause one dollar is only four quarters and I need eight
quarters so I need two dollar bills."
After explaining to Janene how we didn't have money to burn on buying
little bouncy balls which are dangerous to the dogs, I turned to the mom
and said 'that's how unschooling works!"
Joylyn
[email protected]
I was looking for what I had written about pornography and Marty, and found
this instead. I'm still looking for the other one and will bring some of it
here rather than try to remember and write it all.
This was posted on the unschooling discussion list last summer--those who've
read it can merrily skip on by, but it will be new to some here. And as
preview, this is a kid who HAS looked at some porn, and not on TV (we don't have
cable) but computer.
---------
The first reference was, I think, about someone who had come and ranted that
our recommendations about unschooling showed us to be lazy hedonists. The
rest is me, June 7, 2003.
---------------
-=-I pretty much got sick to my stomach reading that post. If only she
could see the wonderful things that have come from this unschooling life
change.
<sigh>-=-
Well, the same day I read that we were lazy hedonists, this happened:
The final day, graduation from the Junior Police Academy, they march in like
soldiers, doing face drills and filing in and pledging allegience (we briefed
Marty on that this week; he said he knew it from a humorous version in the
bathroom, just leave out the joke parts)...
Ceremonial this'n'that, certificates, pins, Marty was awarded a certificate
as "Top Gun" (electronic target practice guns, F.A.T.S. and paintball guns)
which also came with $15 gift certificate to a sporting goods store. Seven
or
eight other kids (of 32) got awards like most pushups, most improved, most
physically fit male.
Of Marty, I thought "All that Nintendo Duck Hunt paid off."
Then we ate good local barbecue, served up by their instructors, and as
people were taking pictures and saying goodbye, I went up to one of his
instructors
and sat to thank him. He said Marty was just a joy to work with. Chit chat
you'd expect.
Then he said the big thing. (Brace yourselves. And I really like the guy.)
He said "You can always tell a kid who comes from a family with discipline,
with rules."
He said Marty was really well behaved and enthusiastic and cooperative. (I
wish I had the exact quotes there; I wish I had VIDEOTAPE.)
I said "We hardly have any rules at our house. We just tell them to always
make the best choice, to be helpful and not hurt people." (That's maybe 85%
close to exact words; I need my audio back!)
He said they had talked about a lot of things like that over the week.
I wanted to make light again, because it was maybe kinda tacky to counter
"you can always tell" with "GOTCHA! Wrong! CAN'T always tell." So I said,
"Y'know, Monday was really his first day at school of any sort. It was his
first
day taking notes or anything like that."
"Oh, right, he's homeschooled, right?"
"Yes."
"Most of the homeschooled kids I've met were not so good at social
interactions. Marty's really confident and outgoing."
I told him he had gone home and re-written his notes from Monday, and had
been really focussed on his assignments and getting ready for the next day.
He
said "Initiative! Good!"
Probably there was nobody there who was as eager and excited to be there as
Marty was. So we made some more sweet chitchat and that was it.
I could hardly wait to get into the van and close the doors so I could tell
Keith, Marty and Holly what he had said about discipline and rules. We
talked
about that most of the way home. Holly can hardly believe that some people
think that rules upon rules will make people "good" away from home. It just
makes no sense to her.
Marty said one of the kids got in bad trouble this afternoon, threatened with
being sent home, for throwing pieces of rubber at other kids, and for
throwing paintballs. One broke on the exercise track. NOT at the targets,
where the
mess was supposed to be.
Marty couldn't fathom why someone would be at such a cool place and act that
way.
But Marty had also told me there were two people there who hadn't even wanted
to be there. I didn't ask (yet) whether this kid was one of those. Marty
was exhausted when he got home and went to bed at 10:00.
This evidence is really important, that someone who works with kids a lot
(Police Athletic League volunteer), someone who's in law enforcement, sees an
enthusiastic, well-behaved, cooperative kid, and is confident that he came
from a
house with discipline and rules.
Discipline and rules? All-fired flaming hedonists? (Whatever the
accusation was.)
Neither of the above.
Sandra
this instead. I'm still looking for the other one and will bring some of it
here rather than try to remember and write it all.
This was posted on the unschooling discussion list last summer--those who've
read it can merrily skip on by, but it will be new to some here. And as
preview, this is a kid who HAS looked at some porn, and not on TV (we don't have
cable) but computer.
---------
The first reference was, I think, about someone who had come and ranted that
our recommendations about unschooling showed us to be lazy hedonists. The
rest is me, June 7, 2003.
---------------
-=-I pretty much got sick to my stomach reading that post. If only she
could see the wonderful things that have come from this unschooling life
change.
<sigh>-=-
Well, the same day I read that we were lazy hedonists, this happened:
The final day, graduation from the Junior Police Academy, they march in like
soldiers, doing face drills and filing in and pledging allegience (we briefed
Marty on that this week; he said he knew it from a humorous version in the
bathroom, just leave out the joke parts)...
Ceremonial this'n'that, certificates, pins, Marty was awarded a certificate
as "Top Gun" (electronic target practice guns, F.A.T.S. and paintball guns)
which also came with $15 gift certificate to a sporting goods store. Seven
or
eight other kids (of 32) got awards like most pushups, most improved, most
physically fit male.
Of Marty, I thought "All that Nintendo Duck Hunt paid off."
Then we ate good local barbecue, served up by their instructors, and as
people were taking pictures and saying goodbye, I went up to one of his
instructors
and sat to thank him. He said Marty was just a joy to work with. Chit chat
you'd expect.
Then he said the big thing. (Brace yourselves. And I really like the guy.)
He said "You can always tell a kid who comes from a family with discipline,
with rules."
He said Marty was really well behaved and enthusiastic and cooperative. (I
wish I had the exact quotes there; I wish I had VIDEOTAPE.)
I said "We hardly have any rules at our house. We just tell them to always
make the best choice, to be helpful and not hurt people." (That's maybe 85%
close to exact words; I need my audio back!)
He said they had talked about a lot of things like that over the week.
I wanted to make light again, because it was maybe kinda tacky to counter
"you can always tell" with "GOTCHA! Wrong! CAN'T always tell." So I said,
"Y'know, Monday was really his first day at school of any sort. It was his
first
day taking notes or anything like that."
"Oh, right, he's homeschooled, right?"
"Yes."
"Most of the homeschooled kids I've met were not so good at social
interactions. Marty's really confident and outgoing."
I told him he had gone home and re-written his notes from Monday, and had
been really focussed on his assignments and getting ready for the next day.
He
said "Initiative! Good!"
Probably there was nobody there who was as eager and excited to be there as
Marty was. So we made some more sweet chitchat and that was it.
I could hardly wait to get into the van and close the doors so I could tell
Keith, Marty and Holly what he had said about discipline and rules. We
talked
about that most of the way home. Holly can hardly believe that some people
think that rules upon rules will make people "good" away from home. It just
makes no sense to her.
Marty said one of the kids got in bad trouble this afternoon, threatened with
being sent home, for throwing pieces of rubber at other kids, and for
throwing paintballs. One broke on the exercise track. NOT at the targets,
where the
mess was supposed to be.
Marty couldn't fathom why someone would be at such a cool place and act that
way.
But Marty had also told me there were two people there who hadn't even wanted
to be there. I didn't ask (yet) whether this kid was one of those. Marty
was exhausted when he got home and went to bed at 10:00.
This evidence is really important, that someone who works with kids a lot
(Police Athletic League volunteer), someone who's in law enforcement, sees an
enthusiastic, well-behaved, cooperative kid, and is confident that he came
from a
house with discipline and rules.
Discipline and rules? All-fired flaming hedonists? (Whatever the
accusation was.)
Neither of the above.
Sandra
[email protected]
More re-tread, with apologies, from another list. The address of that list
is at the bottom, and the message # if anyone here wants to go and read more of
a past discussion on this.
Msg # From: SandraDodd@...
Date: Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:26 am
Subject: Re: Pornography and teens (long, true)
<< But boys get their curiosity blocked because there isn't any
acceptable "pornography" for boys. >>
Whether it's "acceptable" or not, there is a fair amount of written
fanfiction involving characters from comic book series, fantasy series, and
even video games. Some of it is just adventure/romance, and some is at least
as graphic as romance novels. Maybe it's for and by girls, though, I don't
know.
Two nights ago I wanted to play Destruct-o-Match on Neopets. Both Marty (14)
and Holly (11) play Neopets, and I have an account (just so I can play that
pattern-falling cascading game myself without having to ask Marty) and our
Mac Powerstrip we use to get to recent files, recent programs, recent sites
was FULL of porn stuff. I didn't open any, the titles themselves were gross
enough. OH!! I had wanted to get to Netflix to cancel getting a DVD I had
just rented (which didn't work).
Well anyway, usually I use it to get to Neopets games page.
I called Marty in, and said "Marty, this is a bit much."
He said "Most of it was pop-ups mom, I didn't really look at it all much.
Just some."
I asked him if he could cover those kinds of trails over so I didn't have to
know and so Holly wouldn't accidently see. I said he needed to open a bunch
of CLEAN websites and look at some better stuff so that would be on the
trail. He told me he could delete the trail. I said I didn't think he
could, that I had even asked Leon, one of the developers, who said it only
works on the Mac OSX version, not 9.
But Marty is a teenaged boy, so besides his porn curiosity he has a computer
facility. And he figured out a three-step process to erase that list through
Internet Explorer.
If I say "NO, never ever even look," I risk losing the communication we have
within which he will just tell me what he's seen and knows and where it came
from.
But that story has gone two days now. At first he was embarrassed and "Mom,
okay, I know, don't talk to me about it anymore." So I said I wanted to talk
to him one more time the next day, about whether he knows the reasons people
object to kids looking at porn.
The next day came and had nearly passed without me remembering, when he came
and said, "Okay, mom."
"What?"
"You wanted to talk to me about porn."
"Oh! Thanks. I hadn't remembered."
So I asked if he knew the objections. He said no. I said, "In all your
reading and listening you haven't heard objections to porn?"
"Well, that its illegal for me to see it."
I talked to him about degradation of women, about creating unhealthy and
unreasonable expectations in marriages, and that normal sex wasn't like that.
He said "Well, DUH, mom!" I said some people were messed up by WANTING it
to be. He seemed surprised that that could happen.
I told him that some of those who are filmed are not quite volunteers and
told him two stories, one of the mom of girls his age he's known his whole
life, who was photographed as a kid for posed stills which were sold out of
Oklahoma. It was shocking for him, and I don't know much detail, but naming
a person he knew who had been victimized was effective. I told him of a
drug dealer and illegal snake importer my younger half-brother had taken up
with some years back, who videod him and his then-girlfriend, and used it as
blackmail (she was from a Mormon family) to get them to deliver drugs for him.
Then I said I didn't think it was the most horrible thing people could do, to
look at pictures, but he REALLY needed to be careful because it's illegal and
I didn't want the county coming to talk to me about anything they were doing.
(I had a similar moment with Holly later that evening about going outside in
a teensy fancy t-shirt and nylon pajama pants, no shoes, in January, while
she has a sore throat. "Illegal," I told her, for parents to allow that,
and let's not draw attention to a loose lifestyle by being outside in the
cold without proper attire.)
I told Marty that women tend to prefer word-porn and so they don't get
caught, but pictures were easy to find and more offensive.
I told him one danger was obsession. I didn't go into that much, because
some of the original arguments about obsession were the cost. I did have a
friend years ago who had a large collection of porn videos that had cost him
$60 to $80 apiece. Had he had the internet, his obsession wouldn't have
ruined his finances, nor left a mountain of evidence to shock his mom.
(That friend had a sex change operation since then, so I think it was his way
of dealing with deeper psychological and biological situations, and that was
way too much to tell Marty.)
Then I asked him if he had ANY idea how much trouble some other boys his age
would get into if their parents caught them having looked at that kind of
stuff on the computer. He said "Lots?" I talked about loss of computer
accesss, grounding, and physical spanking by some big grown man.
He said he had been mostly embarrassed when I first talked to him because he
had had friends in the house. They couldn't hear us, but he had to leave
where they were, talk to me, and go back in there, and it just embarrassed
him. I said in those worst-case situations, the parents would have called
all of the friends' parents, said to come get them, told them why, and some
of THEM would have been grounded and in trouble just for hanging out with
someone who had looked at porn.
I doubt he really fully believes me on those things, or maybe he can't fathom
a parent doing that to a child.
I don't mind having a kid who can't readily imagine being hit by an angry,
grown man or can't imagine being told "You stay in your room for a month and
don't even touch a computer."
For anyone who has read this far and is offended, I didn't mean to throw this
out to offend anyone. It's a candid, current situation involving a real teen.
And usually the trail on this real teen's internet use has Neopets, AoN (a
role-playing game), humor sites, and in-person friends' journals. People
who know Marty wouldn't think of him as a nasty kid. He's not. He is coming
into adulthood, though, and he's curious.
I think similar to make-up, if it is declared "only for adults," and a girl
waits and waits and WAITS until she can use it and is then unlikely to just
let it go unused, a boy who is slapped away from any glimpse of nudity until
he's eighteen is GOING to immerse himself in his newfound access for a while
the moment he gets a chance.
Keith and I were out grocery shopping, and talking about Kirby turning
seventeen this year. I said I used to want to have a big eighteenth birthday
celebration for him, like a graduation, but I no longer want to do that. I
don't want to declare an end to his learning, nor to his living with us if he
wants to stay. Keith said he had no ideas either, but that was fine. Said
"Well, I'm not going to get him drunk and take him to a whorehouse, so
there's probably going to be no rite of passage."
Kirby wouldn't want any of that anyway. ANOTHER good thing. When he turns
eighteen, he'll have more legal rights, but there won't be the effect of huge
tension released. He'll have no restrictions suddenly lifted.
I know this won't suit everyone's belief system, but it is working with us to
produce mature, calm, considerate, communicative teenaged boys. They're not
angry with us, they're not reactionary, they're not sneaky.
Sandra
-----
quotes are other people
-------
Msg # From: SandraDodd@...
Date: Sat Jan 18, 2003 9:20 am
<< My dh has shared that he believes that when the family is
unhealthy, porn more likely beomces an addiction to fill a hole. >>
I agree. I think it's the same as other "internet dangers." If a child has
nothing else to do and no affirmation of wholeness, the internet can be an
escape from what seems a lack of life. But when life is big and real and
happy, the child will be there, in his own real life.
<<I really appreciate hearing how you've dealt with so many of the
issues I've raised. Your perspective and style of interaacting with
your kids is refreshing and gives me hope.>>
Thanks. Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry that I'll
cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE going so
well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth continuing to
share.
Sandra
--------------
anyone who wants to read the rest of that discussion can join
this list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
and go to message # 55403
and the responses, or go back two days and see the original question.
--------------
is at the bottom, and the message # if anyone here wants to go and read more of
a past discussion on this.
Msg # From: SandraDodd@...
Date: Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:26 am
Subject: Re: Pornography and teens (long, true)
<< But boys get their curiosity blocked because there isn't any
acceptable "pornography" for boys. >>
Whether it's "acceptable" or not, there is a fair amount of written
fanfiction involving characters from comic book series, fantasy series, and
even video games. Some of it is just adventure/romance, and some is at least
as graphic as romance novels. Maybe it's for and by girls, though, I don't
know.
Two nights ago I wanted to play Destruct-o-Match on Neopets. Both Marty (14)
and Holly (11) play Neopets, and I have an account (just so I can play that
pattern-falling cascading game myself without having to ask Marty) and our
Mac Powerstrip we use to get to recent files, recent programs, recent sites
was FULL of porn stuff. I didn't open any, the titles themselves were gross
enough. OH!! I had wanted to get to Netflix to cancel getting a DVD I had
just rented (which didn't work).
Well anyway, usually I use it to get to Neopets games page.
I called Marty in, and said "Marty, this is a bit much."
He said "Most of it was pop-ups mom, I didn't really look at it all much.
Just some."
I asked him if he could cover those kinds of trails over so I didn't have to
know and so Holly wouldn't accidently see. I said he needed to open a bunch
of CLEAN websites and look at some better stuff so that would be on the
trail. He told me he could delete the trail. I said I didn't think he
could, that I had even asked Leon, one of the developers, who said it only
works on the Mac OSX version, not 9.
But Marty is a teenaged boy, so besides his porn curiosity he has a computer
facility. And he figured out a three-step process to erase that list through
Internet Explorer.
If I say "NO, never ever even look," I risk losing the communication we have
within which he will just tell me what he's seen and knows and where it came
from.
But that story has gone two days now. At first he was embarrassed and "Mom,
okay, I know, don't talk to me about it anymore." So I said I wanted to talk
to him one more time the next day, about whether he knows the reasons people
object to kids looking at porn.
The next day came and had nearly passed without me remembering, when he came
and said, "Okay, mom."
"What?"
"You wanted to talk to me about porn."
"Oh! Thanks. I hadn't remembered."
So I asked if he knew the objections. He said no. I said, "In all your
reading and listening you haven't heard objections to porn?"
"Well, that its illegal for me to see it."
I talked to him about degradation of women, about creating unhealthy and
unreasonable expectations in marriages, and that normal sex wasn't like that.
He said "Well, DUH, mom!" I said some people were messed up by WANTING it
to be. He seemed surprised that that could happen.
I told him that some of those who are filmed are not quite volunteers and
told him two stories, one of the mom of girls his age he's known his whole
life, who was photographed as a kid for posed stills which were sold out of
Oklahoma. It was shocking for him, and I don't know much detail, but naming
a person he knew who had been victimized was effective. I told him of a
drug dealer and illegal snake importer my younger half-brother had taken up
with some years back, who videod him and his then-girlfriend, and used it as
blackmail (she was from a Mormon family) to get them to deliver drugs for him.
Then I said I didn't think it was the most horrible thing people could do, to
look at pictures, but he REALLY needed to be careful because it's illegal and
I didn't want the county coming to talk to me about anything they were doing.
(I had a similar moment with Holly later that evening about going outside in
a teensy fancy t-shirt and nylon pajama pants, no shoes, in January, while
she has a sore throat. "Illegal," I told her, for parents to allow that,
and let's not draw attention to a loose lifestyle by being outside in the
cold without proper attire.)
I told Marty that women tend to prefer word-porn and so they don't get
caught, but pictures were easy to find and more offensive.
I told him one danger was obsession. I didn't go into that much, because
some of the original arguments about obsession were the cost. I did have a
friend years ago who had a large collection of porn videos that had cost him
$60 to $80 apiece. Had he had the internet, his obsession wouldn't have
ruined his finances, nor left a mountain of evidence to shock his mom.
(That friend had a sex change operation since then, so I think it was his way
of dealing with deeper psychological and biological situations, and that was
way too much to tell Marty.)
Then I asked him if he had ANY idea how much trouble some other boys his age
would get into if their parents caught them having looked at that kind of
stuff on the computer. He said "Lots?" I talked about loss of computer
accesss, grounding, and physical spanking by some big grown man.
He said he had been mostly embarrassed when I first talked to him because he
had had friends in the house. They couldn't hear us, but he had to leave
where they were, talk to me, and go back in there, and it just embarrassed
him. I said in those worst-case situations, the parents would have called
all of the friends' parents, said to come get them, told them why, and some
of THEM would have been grounded and in trouble just for hanging out with
someone who had looked at porn.
I doubt he really fully believes me on those things, or maybe he can't fathom
a parent doing that to a child.
I don't mind having a kid who can't readily imagine being hit by an angry,
grown man or can't imagine being told "You stay in your room for a month and
don't even touch a computer."
For anyone who has read this far and is offended, I didn't mean to throw this
out to offend anyone. It's a candid, current situation involving a real teen.
And usually the trail on this real teen's internet use has Neopets, AoN (a
role-playing game), humor sites, and in-person friends' journals. People
who know Marty wouldn't think of him as a nasty kid. He's not. He is coming
into adulthood, though, and he's curious.
I think similar to make-up, if it is declared "only for adults," and a girl
waits and waits and WAITS until she can use it and is then unlikely to just
let it go unused, a boy who is slapped away from any glimpse of nudity until
he's eighteen is GOING to immerse himself in his newfound access for a while
the moment he gets a chance.
Keith and I were out grocery shopping, and talking about Kirby turning
seventeen this year. I said I used to want to have a big eighteenth birthday
celebration for him, like a graduation, but I no longer want to do that. I
don't want to declare an end to his learning, nor to his living with us if he
wants to stay. Keith said he had no ideas either, but that was fine. Said
"Well, I'm not going to get him drunk and take him to a whorehouse, so
there's probably going to be no rite of passage."
Kirby wouldn't want any of that anyway. ANOTHER good thing. When he turns
eighteen, he'll have more legal rights, but there won't be the effect of huge
tension released. He'll have no restrictions suddenly lifted.
I know this won't suit everyone's belief system, but it is working with us to
produce mature, calm, considerate, communicative teenaged boys. They're not
angry with us, they're not reactionary, they're not sneaky.
Sandra
-----
quotes are other people
-------
Msg # From: SandraDodd@...
Date: Sat Jan 18, 2003 9:20 am
<< My dh has shared that he believes that when the family is
unhealthy, porn more likely beomces an addiction to fill a hole. >>
I agree. I think it's the same as other "internet dangers." If a child has
nothing else to do and no affirmation of wholeness, the internet can be an
escape from what seems a lack of life. But when life is big and real and
happy, the child will be there, in his own real life.
<<I really appreciate hearing how you've dealt with so many of the
issues I've raised. Your perspective and style of interaacting with
your kids is refreshing and gives me hope.>>
Thanks. Sometimes when I write those things so plainly I worry that I'll
cause more damage than good in some families. But since things ARE going so
well with my boys (and I hope it stays that way) it seems worth continuing to
share.
Sandra
--------------
anyone who wants to read the rest of that discussion can join
this list:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
and go to message # 55403
and the responses, or go back two days and see the original question.
--------------
Kelli Traaseth
-=-I pretty much got sick to my stomach reading that post. If only she
A new member to that list couldn't believe that her son would possibly make
OK choices if he was given the freedom to do so.
I believe she was a child psychologist.
She believed he would never get off the couch, never stop eating sugar and
never do anything unless she made him do things. It was really sad.
Kelli~
> could see the wonderful things that have come from this unschooling lifeOhh, I totally remember this exchange, that was me, above.
> change.
> <sigh>-=-
A new member to that list couldn't believe that her son would possibly make
OK choices if he was given the freedom to do so.
I believe she was a child psychologist.
She believed he would never get off the couch, never stop eating sugar and
never do anything unless she made him do things. It was really sad.
Kelli~
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2003 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: TV - question, please don't flame me
> I was looking for what I had written about pornography and Marty, and
found
> this instead. I'm still looking for the other one and will bring some of
it
> here rather than try to remember and write it all.
>
> This was posted on the unschooling discussion list last summer--those
who've
> read it can merrily skip on by, but it will be new to some here. And as
> preview, this is a kid who HAS looked at some porn, and not on TV (we
don't have
> cable) but computer.
>
> ---------
> The first reference was, I think, about someone who had come and ranted
that
> our recommendations about unschooling showed us to be lazy hedonists. The
> rest is me, June 7, 2003.
> ---------------
> -=-I pretty much got sick to my stomach reading that post. If only she
> could see the wonderful things that have come from this unschooling life
> change.
> <sigh>-=-
>
> Well, the same day I read that we were lazy hedonists, this happened:
>
> The final day, graduation from the Junior Police Academy, they march in
like
> soldiers, doing face drills and filing in and pledging allegience (we
briefed
> Marty on that this week; he said he knew it from a humorous version in the
> bathroom, just leave out the joke parts)...
>
Nanci K.
>Keith said he had no ideas either, but that was fine. SaidI know, I'm chatty today. I had read this last summer, but didn't
>"Well, I'm not going to get him drunk and take him to a whorehouse,
>so there's probably going to be no rite of passage."
>Sandra
comment at the time for whatever reason, lack of time or whatever.
I wanted to mention that rites of passage are traditionally a
difficult task or challenge, performed either alone or often with
grown men, a male mentor, females for a girl, whatever. Getting
drunk and going to the whorehouse is what, Porky's? Americana?
It's pop culture, but not really a real rite of passage. I think
there is value in real rites of passage, helping a young person feel
like they are passing childhood and reaching new levels of
responsibility and a different chapter in their lives. The reason
rites of passage have appeared in so many cultures and so many eras
is because they are valuable, when done right. That's not just
rites welcoming you into adulthood, but all stages of life,
commemorating changes, growth and important events. Americans act
like reaching age 18 is a rite of passage, but then we don't
actually DO anything to make that so. So kids spend a lot of time
thinking they will feel differently after they turn 18 and then they
are disappointed.
If I wanted to have a rite of passage ceremony for a son or a
daughter (not necessarily connected with a birthday or age) I would
think it would be about something that they had not been able or old
enough to do before that showed maturity, adult capability in some
fashion. A trip taken on their own, responsibility in a challenging
situation, mastering a fear, learning something about themselves
that fosters a more adult understanding of themselves or other
people, or the world around them. Knowing that they can be capable
all on their own is an important thing. Sometimes it comes all on
it's own and you have to be able to recognize it when it happens and
help them celebrate their accomplishment. If we wanted to plan
something, I think I would talk to the person in question about
whether they would be interested in such a ceremony, how formal or
informal to make it, whether it would be completely personal, or
whether they would like a little celebration afterwards to
comemorate their accomplishment, and helping them to design their
own experience in something that is meaningful to them.
Of course this all depends on how spiritual your family is, how
interested your kids are in their spiritual and psychological
selves, or their place in society and their greater culture. It's
not a matter of religion, but how comfortable you are with the
notion that ceremony can enhance life experiences and that internal
growth is a worthy goal.
That doesn't mean that if you DON'T want to have a rite of passage
that you are some kind of empty shallow person, just that it can be
a very valuable experience and mean a lot to a young person and
their family and/or supportive social circle or mentors. It can
also give them that sense that so many of our teenagers are looking
for that they have crossed a threshold and are not seen as children
anymore. Of course you have to follow suit and not TREAT them like
children, but then unschoolers don't really treat children
like "children" anyhow. Just some thoughts on rites of passage.
Nanci K.
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/18/03 7:05:50 PM, aisliin@... writes:
<< I wanted to mention that rites of passage are traditionally a
difficult task or challenge, performed either alone or often with
grown men, a male mentor, females for a girl, whatever. >>
In some cultures.
In this culture these days, it's a high school graduation.
Going to college is one.
Going to a bar on your 21st birthday is too.
<< Getting
drunk and going to the whorehouse is what, Porky's? Americana?
It's pop culture, but not really a real rite of passage. >>
If it's traditional among any people in ANY culture then it is really a real
rite of passage in that real culture.
<<The reason
rites of passage have appeared in so many cultures and so many eras
is because they are valuable, when done right. >>
Each person has one life.
Some things are done well, some aren't. Some weddings are botched, some
funerals are botched, but those things are undeniably rites of passage.
<< It can
also give them that sense that so many of our teenagers are looking
for that they have crossed a threshold and are not seen as children
anymore. >>
Right.
Kirby is not going to need that. When he moves out, that will be a passage
he creates on his own and we'll help him out and let him come visit all he
wants. We're not sending him out against his will to college. We're not forcing
him to marry to forge dynastic ties. We're not arranging for him to be
knighted and go off to the crusades to risk his life. We're not pressing him into
military service, nor monastic or priestly vows. All those things have been
done to people in European culture for generations, and except for the college
stuff, little of it translated to the United States.
<<Of course you have to follow suit and not TREAT them like
children, but then unschoolers don't really treat children
like "children" anyhow. >>
Right. We already don't treat him like a child, so there's no big 18
privileges to look forward to.
Sandra
<< I wanted to mention that rites of passage are traditionally a
difficult task or challenge, performed either alone or often with
grown men, a male mentor, females for a girl, whatever. >>
In some cultures.
In this culture these days, it's a high school graduation.
Going to college is one.
Going to a bar on your 21st birthday is too.
<< Getting
drunk and going to the whorehouse is what, Porky's? Americana?
It's pop culture, but not really a real rite of passage. >>
If it's traditional among any people in ANY culture then it is really a real
rite of passage in that real culture.
<<The reason
rites of passage have appeared in so many cultures and so many eras
is because they are valuable, when done right. >>
Each person has one life.
Some things are done well, some aren't. Some weddings are botched, some
funerals are botched, but those things are undeniably rites of passage.
<< It can
also give them that sense that so many of our teenagers are looking
for that they have crossed a threshold and are not seen as children
anymore. >>
Right.
Kirby is not going to need that. When he moves out, that will be a passage
he creates on his own and we'll help him out and let him come visit all he
wants. We're not sending him out against his will to college. We're not forcing
him to marry to forge dynastic ties. We're not arranging for him to be
knighted and go off to the crusades to risk his life. We're not pressing him into
military service, nor monastic or priestly vows. All those things have been
done to people in European culture for generations, and except for the college
stuff, little of it translated to the United States.
<<Of course you have to follow suit and not TREAT them like
children, but then unschoolers don't really treat children
like "children" anyhow. >>
Right. We already don't treat him like a child, so there's no big 18
privileges to look forward to.
Sandra
Nanci Kuykendall
aisliin@... writes:
<< I wanted to mention that rites of passage are
or don't do them in the conventional sense? Yeah, I
recognize that those are American rights of passage, I
guess I just feel like so many of our "traditions" to
mark lives are, well, lame.
I never graduated anything except kindergarten, not in
the traditional sense, though I had 5 various years of
college, but that was later, after I was on my own. I
never went bar hopping or had any ceremonial bar trip
because by then I was already long past my wild, angry
rebel days when I was still surviving in an alcoholic
home, and I hate bars. I'm not sure what my rite of
passage might have been. I did move out of the house
and was paying my own bills and taking care of myself
fairly early, but that's all clouded up with years
still living codependent with abusive guys (like dear
ol dad.)
Tom (hubby) and I were talking about this and he says
his own real right of passage into adulthood was
moving out on his own, not with a friend/roomate. He
says knowing that he could pay for his own
necessities, eat well, not just keep from starving,
and manage work and a social life, those things had
real personal meaning for him in learning his own
adult capabilities and depending on himself and
trusting his own judgement.
I guess, in pondering it, my real right of passage was
when I made the decision to stop struggling to survive
with, and trying to win the approval from, parents who
would never be satisfied or healthy, and when I
decided to take responsibility for important decisions
in my life into my own hands. That was when I was 14
and I nearly died from long illness and something in
me changed. I decided I only get one life and I'll be
damned if I was going to let people who were so self
absorbed and abusive control it. I still made
mistakes after that, and was occassionally bullied
into giving up my own authority on important
decisions, but it was definately a turning point for
me. I forced my way out of institutional schooling at
the same time, and entered independent study and the
full time workforce. I can't think of anything else
that would qualify more for me as a rite of passage to
adulthood.
our "culture." Blech.
about an "intentional" right of passage. There are
many things in life that are challenges or that mark
the beginning of a new time in our lives, but most of
them are not intentional, and many that are, are done
with little thought to them as marking a change in
life. They're rites of passage, trials which change
us, often affecting our "status" and how others see us
or how we see ourselves, to be sure. That doesn't
make them less valuable than intentional ones, often
more so, just that I was referring to engineered and
intentional rites of passage as possibly beneficial.
<< It can also give them that sense that so many of
our teenagers are looking for that they have crossed a
threshold and are not seen as children anymore. >>
not just risking life and limb and being forced to
follow your "duty."
"privileges" when they turn 18 though. What are
those? Voting? Dying for their country? They are
legally responsible at that age, and can be held both
accountable for their actions, as well as being able
to make decisions and enter into contracts without
another authority. They can also be held accountable
for the actions of minor friends in their car, or at a
house where they are, or who are with them. There are
"privileges" that our country bestows on them for
being 18, plus many people "see" an 18 year old
differently than a 17 year old. I guess it could be
fun to make a certificate of some sort and have a
presentation at a birthday party where you emphasize
all the special "privileges and responsibilities" of
"legal adulthood" that they are now privy to (in a
humorous way,) as well as all the stuff they will not
have to do or put up with anymore. As to the later,
not so much at home because they are unschooled, but
maybe in other places and from other people. For that
matter I guess graduating HS has some merit after all,
as an escape from the institution finally. I forgot
about that because I didn't get out that way. I could
see something along the lines of a string of humorous
titles, like Bilbo's string of riddling titles to
Smaug in The Hobbit, applying to new status and/or
"responsibilities" and "preiviliges."
Nanci K.
<< I wanted to mention that rites of passage are
>>traditionally a difficult task or challenge,Hmmm....So what if you never do any of those things,
>>performed either alone or often with grown men, a
>>male mentor, females for a girl, whatever. >>
>In some cultures.
>In this culture these days, it's a high school
>graduation.
>Going to college is one.
>Going to a bar on your 21st birthday is too.
or don't do them in the conventional sense? Yeah, I
recognize that those are American rights of passage, I
guess I just feel like so many of our "traditions" to
mark lives are, well, lame.
I never graduated anything except kindergarten, not in
the traditional sense, though I had 5 various years of
college, but that was later, after I was on my own. I
never went bar hopping or had any ceremonial bar trip
because by then I was already long past my wild, angry
rebel days when I was still surviving in an alcoholic
home, and I hate bars. I'm not sure what my rite of
passage might have been. I did move out of the house
and was paying my own bills and taking care of myself
fairly early, but that's all clouded up with years
still living codependent with abusive guys (like dear
ol dad.)
Tom (hubby) and I were talking about this and he says
his own real right of passage into adulthood was
moving out on his own, not with a friend/roomate. He
says knowing that he could pay for his own
necessities, eat well, not just keep from starving,
and manage work and a social life, those things had
real personal meaning for him in learning his own
adult capabilities and depending on himself and
trusting his own judgement.
I guess, in pondering it, my real right of passage was
when I made the decision to stop struggling to survive
with, and trying to win the approval from, parents who
would never be satisfied or healthy, and when I
decided to take responsibility for important decisions
in my life into my own hands. That was when I was 14
and I nearly died from long illness and something in
me changed. I decided I only get one life and I'll be
damned if I was going to let people who were so self
absorbed and abusive control it. I still made
mistakes after that, and was occassionally bullied
into giving up my own authority on important
decisions, but it was definately a turning point for
me. I forced my way out of institutional schooling at
the same time, and entered independent study and the
full time workforce. I can't think of anything else
that would qualify more for me as a rite of passage to
adulthood.
>If it's traditional among any people in ANY cultureI suppose that's true, but unutterably sad regarding
>then it is really a real rite of passage in that
>real culture.
our "culture." Blech.
>Each person has one life.I guess by "done right" I meant when you are talking
>Some things are done well, some aren't. Some
>weddings are botched, some funerals are botched, but
>those things are undeniably rites of passage.
about an "intentional" right of passage. There are
many things in life that are challenges or that mark
the beginning of a new time in our lives, but most of
them are not intentional, and many that are, are done
with little thought to them as marking a change in
life. They're rites of passage, trials which change
us, often affecting our "status" and how others see us
or how we see ourselves, to be sure. That doesn't
make them less valuable than intentional ones, often
more so, just that I was referring to engineered and
intentional rites of passage as possibly beneficial.
<< It can also give them that sense that so many of
our teenagers are looking for that they have crossed a
threshold and are not seen as children anymore. >>
>Right.There were and are positive rites of passage as well,
>Kirby is not going to need that. When he moves out,
>that will be a passage he creates on his own and
>we'll help him out and let him come visit all he
>wants. We're not sending him out against his will
>to college. We're not forcing him to marry to forge
>dynastic ties. We're not arranging for him to be
>knighted and go off to the crusades to risk his
>life. We're not pressing him into military service,
>nor monastic or priestly vows. All those things
>have been done to people in European culture for
>generations, and except for the college stuff,
>little of it translated to the United States.
not just risking life and limb and being forced to
follow your "duty."
>We already don't treat him like a child, so there'sOur culture makes a big deal about there being adult
>no big 18 privileges to look forward to.
"privileges" when they turn 18 though. What are
those? Voting? Dying for their country? They are
legally responsible at that age, and can be held both
accountable for their actions, as well as being able
to make decisions and enter into contracts without
another authority. They can also be held accountable
for the actions of minor friends in their car, or at a
house where they are, or who are with them. There are
"privileges" that our country bestows on them for
being 18, plus many people "see" an 18 year old
differently than a 17 year old. I guess it could be
fun to make a certificate of some sort and have a
presentation at a birthday party where you emphasize
all the special "privileges and responsibilities" of
"legal adulthood" that they are now privy to (in a
humorous way,) as well as all the stuff they will not
have to do or put up with anymore. As to the later,
not so much at home because they are unschooled, but
maybe in other places and from other people. For that
matter I guess graduating HS has some merit after all,
as an escape from the institution finally. I forgot
about that because I didn't get out that way. I could
see something along the lines of a string of humorous
titles, like Bilbo's string of riddling titles to
Smaug in The Hobbit, applying to new status and/or
"responsibilities" and "preiviliges."
Nanci K.
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/19/2003 1:40:07 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
aisliin@... writes:
-=-Yeah, I
recognize that those are American rights of passage, I
guess I just feel like so many of our "traditions" to
mark lives are, well, lame. =\=
Yeah, like "you're five now you go to school" for starters!!
But if a culture just happens NOT to have good formal rites of passage, then
making some up and saying they're more "real" is just borrowing or creating,
it's not practicing a culture.
LOTS of our culture is lame, but it's still a real culture (lame as it might
be).
-=-I'm not sure what my rite of
passage might have been-=-
If you didn't have one, you didn't! "Rite" has to do with "ritual" (it's the
root of that word) and though some cultures have definite rituals, and others
have recognized traditions not always observed (the whorehouse and bar-trip
are NOT figments of my husband's imagination, though they're not NEARLY as
likely to happen now as they might have been 80 years ago, and even then they
would have been only among a subset of people, of course--it was never
recommended, it was more a traditional hazing among people who had had it done to them).
-=-That doesn't
make them less valuable than intentional ones-=-
It makes them less "rites," not less valuable.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aisliin@... writes:
-=-Yeah, I
recognize that those are American rights of passage, I
guess I just feel like so many of our "traditions" to
mark lives are, well, lame. =\=
Yeah, like "you're five now you go to school" for starters!!
But if a culture just happens NOT to have good formal rites of passage, then
making some up and saying they're more "real" is just borrowing or creating,
it's not practicing a culture.
LOTS of our culture is lame, but it's still a real culture (lame as it might
be).
-=-I'm not sure what my rite of
passage might have been-=-
If you didn't have one, you didn't! "Rite" has to do with "ritual" (it's the
root of that word) and though some cultures have definite rituals, and others
have recognized traditions not always observed (the whorehouse and bar-trip
are NOT figments of my husband's imagination, though they're not NEARLY as
likely to happen now as they might have been 80 years ago, and even then they
would have been only among a subset of people, of course--it was never
recommended, it was more a traditional hazing among people who had had it done to them).
-=-That doesn't
make them less valuable than intentional ones-=-
It makes them less "rites," not less valuable.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
averyschmidt
> >We already don't treat him like a child, so there'sMy 10yo is particularly fascinated with various age-related laws and
> >no big 18 privileges to look forward to.
rules and always has been. For instance- you have to be 14 to have
a "real" job with working papers, 16 to get a permit, 17 to get a
driver's license, 21 to legally purchase alcohol etc. Aren't these
rites of passage in a way, albeit subtle ones with not much fanfare?
He's been attending skateboard camp since he was 7, and at this
particular camp they separate the "mini-campers" (7-9 year olds)
from the 10 and up crowd which gets special priveleges like being
able to stay up much later before lights out and being able to
participate in different activities such as Paintball.
It was definitely an exciting "big deal" to him when he attended
this past summer as an over 10 camper for the first time.
I'm sure I could think of other things as well... so I guess I don't
really have a point except to say that even if we treat our children
with respect (i.e. not "like a child") all along and carefully avoid
arbitrary age related privileges, they will *still* have big
(society determined) privileges to look forward to.
And while I like John Holt's ideas of childhood as a walled garden
(meaning they can do things or not as they feel ready however old
they are rather than according to an arbitrarily decided upon age),
I must say that my son finds these little age related milestones
very satisfying. Mabye because they take the place of other rites
of passage that aren't a part of his unschooled life? I'm not
sure...
Patti