feeling like an idiot
nellebelle
So often when I try to explain new ideas to people I end up feeling like an idiot.
I've been reading homeschooling and unschooling books & magazines for about six years now. I don't usually say much about this reading to people unless I know they are also interested in homeschooling or alternative education.
However, I do have some people in my life that I would like to share these ideas with. These ideas are so totally changing my life that I want to share them with people who are part of my life. One of them is my husband. Others are close friends who either send their kids to public school or whose children are grown. These people are not doing the reading I'm doing. When I share the things I'm reading about, they respond in such mainstream ways, yet I can't seem to come up with the words to back up these *new* ideas. (Not new ideas to most of you on this list, I'm sure!) It is so frustrating!
For instance, a recent dinner conversation evolved to schools and standardized testing. I suggested that children would benefit more by putting money into smaller class sizes instead of into testing. *D* insisted that testing is the only way we can know if smaller class sizes or other changes in the system are working. I couldn't think of anything to say to that.
Should I just not bother talking to people unless I know they are also questioning the status quo? I hate to think that I can only have meaningful conversations with people who already think as I do.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've been reading homeschooling and unschooling books & magazines for about six years now. I don't usually say much about this reading to people unless I know they are also interested in homeschooling or alternative education.
However, I do have some people in my life that I would like to share these ideas with. These ideas are so totally changing my life that I want to share them with people who are part of my life. One of them is my husband. Others are close friends who either send their kids to public school or whose children are grown. These people are not doing the reading I'm doing. When I share the things I'm reading about, they respond in such mainstream ways, yet I can't seem to come up with the words to back up these *new* ideas. (Not new ideas to most of you on this list, I'm sure!) It is so frustrating!
For instance, a recent dinner conversation evolved to schools and standardized testing. I suggested that children would benefit more by putting money into smaller class sizes instead of into testing. *D* insisted that testing is the only way we can know if smaller class sizes or other changes in the system are working. I couldn't think of anything to say to that.
Should I just not bother talking to people unless I know they are also questioning the status quo? I hate to think that I can only have meaningful conversations with people who already think as I do.
Mary Ellen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>standardized testing. I suggested that children would benefit more by
> For instance, a recent dinner conversation evolved to schools and
putting money into smaller class sizes instead of into testing. *D*
insisted that testing is the only way we can know if smaller class sizes or
other changes in the system are working. I couldn't think of anything to
say to that.
Testing doesn't prove anything other than how good a kid is at taking tests
and how they're feeling that day.
Tia
leschke@...
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/03 10:53:39 PM, leschke@... writes:
<< *D*
insisted that testing is the only way we can know if smaller class sizes or
other changes in the system are working. >>
As far as that goes, it's true. Schools involve money and "accountability,"
and so they have to show something "quantifiable."
It's how it works.
Sandra
<< *D*
insisted that testing is the only way we can know if smaller class sizes or
other changes in the system are working. >>
As far as that goes, it's true. Schools involve money and "accountability,"
and so they have to show something "quantifiable."
It's how it works.
Sandra
Nancy Wooton
on 9/15/03 8:23 PM, nellebelle at nellebelle@... wrote:
jumped to the top of my tottering nightstand pile. It's called "What
Happened to Recess and Why Are Our Children Struggling in Kindergarten?" by
Susan Ohanian. We who are not daily in the public school trenches have no
idea what "standardized testing" really means. Your dh needs to read it.
America is being fed a load of crap, and our public schooled kids are
suffering on the altar of "global economies."
Oh, but the homeschoolers won't be left out... there's Bill "The Gambler"
Bennett's K12 for us!
Nancy, migrainey and grouchy ;-P
> For instance, a recent dinner conversation evolved to schools and standardizedI happened upon a book on the New Books shelf at the library, which quickly
> testing. I suggested that children would benefit more by putting money into
> smaller class sizes instead of into testing. *D* insisted that testing is the
> only way we can know if smaller class sizes or other changes in the system are
> working. I couldn't think of anything to say to that.
jumped to the top of my tottering nightstand pile. It's called "What
Happened to Recess and Why Are Our Children Struggling in Kindergarten?" by
Susan Ohanian. We who are not daily in the public school trenches have no
idea what "standardized testing" really means. Your dh needs to read it.
America is being fed a load of crap, and our public schooled kids are
suffering on the altar of "global economies."
Oh, but the homeschoolers won't be left out... there's Bill "The Gambler"
Bennett's K12 for us!
Nancy, migrainey and grouchy ;-P
Kimberly Fry
>>>>> For instance, a recent dinner conversation evolved to schools and standardized testing. I suggested that children would benefit more by putting money into smaller class sizes instead of into testing. *D* insisted that testing is the only way we can know if smaller class sizes or other changes in the system are working. I couldn't think of anything to say to that. <<<<<Smaller Classes = Less Reliance on Testing & the testing being looked at more as one available tool instead of the most important tool
The teachers have more time to get to know the students in a smaller class and what they are capable of vs. what they are producing. However, that is only true with good teachers. Not all teachers, even those with a small class size (15 or less / class), will take the time to get to know their students individually.
Kim
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 9/15/03 11:23 PM, nellebelle at nellebelle@... wrote:
It isn't good enough to know that one on one or smaller class sizes or
unschooling works "better". Because better in those cases means realizing
the goal of school is not as good as the goal that those can provide.
When an institution is being trusted to get kids from point A to point B
then they need a way of proving to those that are trusting them that it is
happening.
People invested in schools have a different goal than people who are
unschooling. For their goal -- getting a child from the state they're in to
a point where they can "be anything they want" -- testing is appropriate.
And that's why you're having problems presenting your viewpoint. They're on
one path and you're on another. And you're trying to tell them the
techniques they're using to navigate their path are wrong but that isn't
true.
So you need to find a way to help them question whether the path they're on
is the best one or not.
Joyce
> For instance, a recent dinner conversation evolved to schools and standardizedThey are right. The tests are necessary in that context.
> testing. I suggested that children would benefit more by putting money into
> smaller class sizes instead of into testing. *D* insisted that testing is the
> only way we can know if smaller class sizes or other changes in the system are
> working. I couldn't think of anything to say to that.
It isn't good enough to know that one on one or smaller class sizes or
unschooling works "better". Because better in those cases means realizing
the goal of school is not as good as the goal that those can provide.
When an institution is being trusted to get kids from point A to point B
then they need a way of proving to those that are trusting them that it is
happening.
People invested in schools have a different goal than people who are
unschooling. For their goal -- getting a child from the state they're in to
a point where they can "be anything they want" -- testing is appropriate.
And that's why you're having problems presenting your viewpoint. They're on
one path and you're on another. And you're trying to tell them the
techniques they're using to navigate their path are wrong but that isn't
true.
So you need to find a way to help them question whether the path they're on
is the best one or not.
Joyce
pam sorooshian
On Tuesday, September 16, 2003, at 07:09 AM, Fetteroll wrote:
is counterproductive to what most teachers are trying to accomplish in
their own classrooms.
Authentic assessment methods are more like what unschooling parents do
naturally - we hang out with our kids, talk to them, and often aren't
even conscious of our "assessments" because we don't think of them that
way - we think of them as just thinking about our child - mostly we're
just fascinated by what our child knows and can do, etc.
But still - authentic assessment in a classroom is "sort of" like that.
The teacher observes kids doing stuff or just in conversation about
something (not with the intent to "grade").
So - if you want to talk about testing - and why we don't need to do it
and schools do - you might want to google "authentic assessment" so you
understand it a little and then you can just say, "Oh, yes, we use
authentic assessment, just like the more progressive schools."
Also - if you go to the Fair Test website -- you can read about why
standardized testing is NOT a good idea even in schools.
-pam
> They are right. The tests are necessary in that context.Some kind of assessment is necessary. Standardized testing is not and
is counterproductive to what most teachers are trying to accomplish in
their own classrooms.
Authentic assessment methods are more like what unschooling parents do
naturally - we hang out with our kids, talk to them, and often aren't
even conscious of our "assessments" because we don't think of them that
way - we think of them as just thinking about our child - mostly we're
just fascinated by what our child knows and can do, etc.
But still - authentic assessment in a classroom is "sort of" like that.
The teacher observes kids doing stuff or just in conversation about
something (not with the intent to "grade").
So - if you want to talk about testing - and why we don't need to do it
and schools do - you might want to google "authentic assessment" so you
understand it a little and then you can just say, "Oh, yes, we use
authentic assessment, just like the more progressive schools."
Also - if you go to the Fair Test website -- you can read about why
standardized testing is NOT a good idea even in schools.
-pam
Ren
"Should I just not bother talking to people unless I know they are also
questioning the status quo? I hate to think that I can only have meaningful
conversations with people who already think as I do."
Well, there's two ways I look at it...YES, I protect my sanity by being choosy about with whom I will enter into a debate/discussion. On the other hand, if you only talk to people that agree, how does one hone their beliefs and learn to think them through from other points of view? Having conversations with doubers has truly helped me define my philosophies. But I don't enter into convo's with those that just want to prove me wrong, I enter in when a person truly wants to discuss.
Those that automatically dismiss everything you say are not worthy of your time.
Ren
questioning the status quo? I hate to think that I can only have meaningful
conversations with people who already think as I do."
Well, there's two ways I look at it...YES, I protect my sanity by being choosy about with whom I will enter into a debate/discussion. On the other hand, if you only talk to people that agree, how does one hone their beliefs and learn to think them through from other points of view? Having conversations with doubers has truly helped me define my philosophies. But I don't enter into convo's with those that just want to prove me wrong, I enter in when a person truly wants to discuss.
Those that automatically dismiss everything you say are not worthy of your time.
Ren
Jeff & Kate Kerr
****Some kind of assessment is necessary. Standardized testing is not
and
is counterproductive to what most teachers are trying to accomplish in
their own classrooms.
Authentic assessment methods are more like what unschooling parents do
naturally - we hang out with our kids, talk to them, and often aren't
even conscious of our "assessments" because we don't think of them that
way - we think of them as just thinking about our child - mostly we're
just fascinated by what our child knows and can do, etc.****
We had an interesting day on Monday. My 6yo daughter told us this
weekend that she wanted to go to 1st grade. My husband and I talked
about it and decided that it would be best if we asked a friend of ours
who teaches if we could sit in her classroom for the day, that way we
wouldn't be enrolling and then possibly dropping out the next day.
She said no problem (she has always been supportive of our
unschooling). So Monday bright and early we got up, got dressed, ate
breakfast, made lunches and headed out. There were three of us - me,
Robin (son-8 1/2) and Storey (daughter-6).
Natalie (my friend, the teacher) had written two sentences that needed
correcting on the board. Neither of my children can read yet, but I
read the board to them and they told me what was wrong with the
sentences and wrote them correctly on a sheet of paper. Then we
listened to a story and participated in answering questions about the
story (my son asked me why Natalie was asking these questions - did she
think we hadn't been listening?)
Already my kids were getting out of their chairs and starting to wander
around, which of course was being noticed by the other kids in the room
and they were starting to pop out of their seats too. Recess was still
pretty far away but somehow we managed to get there without me having to
remind them to sit and be still.
After lunch the kids had to take the second part of a standardized test
(that's where the quote above comes in). They were being timed. It was
subtraction, 50 questions, and it said at the top that the test should
be completed in 5 minutes or less. Natalie sat and did the key - it
took her 5 minutes to do that!! Needless to say, the quickest time was
6.5 minutes and the longest was 33 minutes. Silly testing.
Here's the best part:
My kids took the test too, just for fun. Storey did about half of them
and then asked if she had to finish it. I told her only if she wanted
to. She said it was just the same thing over and over and didn't they
already know that she knew it? Why did she have to keep answering the
same thing?
Robin looked at the first problem (7-3=?) and found a different 7 on the
page, circled it then found a different 3, circled it and drew a line to
the 7, then found a four and drew a line to it. He did this for about
10 problems. Natalie was sitting at the table next to him watching,
fascinated. She told him that she had never seen anyone do it that way
and was very impressed. (She was too, she called me later and we talked
about the kids creativity.)
So, long story later, I got to watch my lifelong unschoolers take a
standardized test in a 2nd grade classroom. I got to see how children
who have never had to do math problems or workbooks or anything like
that, do well on a California Standardized test. I am so blown away
that this unschooling actually works SO much better than regular
schooling.
I told my mom about this. Her response? To tell me that she was
apprehensive at first (that's an understatement) but now that the kids
are older and she's around them more and of course this new story about
the testing. She now thinks I may be right with this unschooling thing.
Ok. I'm done. Was any of this understandable? I'm not a writer, I'm
sure that's clear. But it was such an amazing adventure I felt
compelled to share it.
By the way, neither of the kids want to go to school, there is a greater
appreciation for our way now.
Kate
and
is counterproductive to what most teachers are trying to accomplish in
their own classrooms.
Authentic assessment methods are more like what unschooling parents do
naturally - we hang out with our kids, talk to them, and often aren't
even conscious of our "assessments" because we don't think of them that
way - we think of them as just thinking about our child - mostly we're
just fascinated by what our child knows and can do, etc.****
We had an interesting day on Monday. My 6yo daughter told us this
weekend that she wanted to go to 1st grade. My husband and I talked
about it and decided that it would be best if we asked a friend of ours
who teaches if we could sit in her classroom for the day, that way we
wouldn't be enrolling and then possibly dropping out the next day.
She said no problem (she has always been supportive of our
unschooling). So Monday bright and early we got up, got dressed, ate
breakfast, made lunches and headed out. There were three of us - me,
Robin (son-8 1/2) and Storey (daughter-6).
Natalie (my friend, the teacher) had written two sentences that needed
correcting on the board. Neither of my children can read yet, but I
read the board to them and they told me what was wrong with the
sentences and wrote them correctly on a sheet of paper. Then we
listened to a story and participated in answering questions about the
story (my son asked me why Natalie was asking these questions - did she
think we hadn't been listening?)
Already my kids were getting out of their chairs and starting to wander
around, which of course was being noticed by the other kids in the room
and they were starting to pop out of their seats too. Recess was still
pretty far away but somehow we managed to get there without me having to
remind them to sit and be still.
After lunch the kids had to take the second part of a standardized test
(that's where the quote above comes in). They were being timed. It was
subtraction, 50 questions, and it said at the top that the test should
be completed in 5 minutes or less. Natalie sat and did the key - it
took her 5 minutes to do that!! Needless to say, the quickest time was
6.5 minutes and the longest was 33 minutes. Silly testing.
Here's the best part:
My kids took the test too, just for fun. Storey did about half of them
and then asked if she had to finish it. I told her only if she wanted
to. She said it was just the same thing over and over and didn't they
already know that she knew it? Why did she have to keep answering the
same thing?
Robin looked at the first problem (7-3=?) and found a different 7 on the
page, circled it then found a different 3, circled it and drew a line to
the 7, then found a four and drew a line to it. He did this for about
10 problems. Natalie was sitting at the table next to him watching,
fascinated. She told him that she had never seen anyone do it that way
and was very impressed. (She was too, she called me later and we talked
about the kids creativity.)
So, long story later, I got to watch my lifelong unschoolers take a
standardized test in a 2nd grade classroom. I got to see how children
who have never had to do math problems or workbooks or anything like
that, do well on a California Standardized test. I am so blown away
that this unschooling actually works SO much better than regular
schooling.
I told my mom about this. Her response? To tell me that she was
apprehensive at first (that's an understatement) but now that the kids
are older and she's around them more and of course this new story about
the testing. She now thinks I may be right with this unschooling thing.
Ok. I'm done. Was any of this understandable? I'm not a writer, I'm
sure that's clear. But it was such an amazing adventure I felt
compelled to share it.
By the way, neither of the kids want to go to school, there is a greater
appreciation for our way now.
Kate
Tia Leschke
> Ok. I'm done. Was any of this understandable? I'm not a writer, I'mPerfectly understandable. A writer is a person who writes. <g>
> sure that's clear. But it was such an amazing adventure I felt
> compelled to share it.
Great story. And your kids' experience is much like my unschooled
granddaughter's was when she tried grade 2 for a week.
Tia
leschke@...
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where
there is no path and leave a trail."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
joanna514
--- In [email protected], Jeff & Kate Kerr
<windystreet@e...> wrote:
I'm done. Was any of this understandable? I'm not a writer, I'm
My sil is a 4th grade teacher.
Maybe I should ask for the same thing!
I don't think she would be quite so cool though.
Joanna
<windystreet@e...> wrote:
I'm done. Was any of this understandable? I'm not a writer, I'm
> sure that's clear. But it was such an amazing adventure I feltgreater
> compelled to share it.
>
> By the way, neither of the kids want to go to school, there is a
> appreciation for our way now.How lucky you are to have a friend like that!
>
> Kate
My sil is a 4th grade teacher.
Maybe I should ask for the same thing!
I don't think she would be quite so cool though.
Joanna