Cindy

Tia Leschke wrote:
>
> At 04:05 PM 26/12/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> >Gads! I left that list and now I'm feeling sorry for you, Tia. I
> >thought my head would shoot off if I read too many more of those posts.
> >You are brave.
>
> It's been very quiet until yesterday. Someone posted about a teenaged son
> and how she was leaning toward unschooling. Bridget had to post something
> about how unschooling doesn't work for every kid and used her son as her
> example. A couple of people called her on it. In her last post, she said
> goodbye. Usually I feel badly when someone quits a list in a huff, but in
> this case I'm hoping she makes good on her threat.
> Tia
>

Ever since Bridget said this I have been wondering, how does unschooling
not work for every kid?? The essence of unschooling for me is that
the child is in control as much as possible. It is focused on what the
child wants to do/learn/experience. I can think of some things that
I might keep from my child from experiencing right now - safety things
like working with live electricity or playing on freeways or climbing
really high without proper safety equipment, etc. I also hear from
time to time - "we unschool except for _fill_in_subject_." Is this
a misunderstanding about what unschooling is or what??

--

Cindy Ferguson
crma@...

kayb85

I also hear from
> time to time - "we unschool except for _fill_in_subject_." Is this
> a misunderstanding about what unschooling is or what??
>
> --

I used to say that I unschool except for math and Bible-based unit
studies. Then I moved to saying that I unschool except for Bible
based unit studies. Now I'm finally a total unschooler.

I think that for me, I was very willing to not worry about things like
reading and history because those things are natural for me. DD and I
are both good at language related stuff and I see dd reading
historical fiction so I don't see a need to worry about it. Why would
I worry about teaching spelling if spelling comes so naturally to us?

Math, however, is another story. I never really understood math. It
always seemed so complicated. Even with a mom who is a math teacher
who spent hours with me at night getting me through my math homework,
I barely passed my algebra, geometry, and trig and I absolutely hated
it. Even my basic math skills aren't the greatest. So because I saw
math as this complicated monster, I figured we had to come up with a
"good" curriculum that would teach the "basics". I thought
that I certainly wouldn't be able to teach it naturally since I had
no natural ability in that area. I finally gave up after dd got so
frustrated that there was nothing more I could do for her, no matter
how good the curriculum or how clearly I explained. Not long after I
"gave up", she came to me asking for help figuring out how much more
money she needed to buy an American girl doll. Everytime she earned
more money, she did math. She learned double and triple digit
addition and subtraction, with carrying and borrowing, in a matter of
weeks. :)

I have a friend who likes the idea of unschooling but worries that
she's "not smart enough". She said that "smart" people know how to
answer their children's questions on the spot and know enough in their
own heads to point stuff out without planning ahead of time. I do see
that she has a point. Your child asks you what kind of insect is
crawling on a rock and you immediately tell her the name of the bug
and a really interesting fact versus telling her you will look it up
with her later, and either you forget to look it up or when you do,
she has lost interest.

Sheila

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/27/01 11:37:04 AM, sheran@... writes:

<< Your child asks you what kind of insect is
crawling on a rock and you immediately tell her the name of the bug
and a really interesting fact versus telling her you will look it up
with her later, and either you forget to look it up or when you do,
she has lost interest.
>>

Then you sketch a picture of it while you're looking at it, or you talk about
whether it can fly, and where you think it lives. You don't have to know
facts to make a discussion interesting and thought-provoking.

I've sometimes thought people need to be smart to unschool and need to have
smart kids, but that's usually right after a discussion with someone who
seems thick and resistent. Then I feel way more hopeful and expansive after
that frustration wears off.

I've seen families in which I don't think unschooling would even begin to
work. But because of that should we (the greater "we" here--the families who
are unschooling and excited about it) stop discussing it? How "fair" do we
need to be? And how unfair would it be to just say to people "If you don't
have a naturally burning curiosity and fairly quick mind, it's just not going
to work; buy a curriculum"?

It's a problem.

Sandra

[email protected]

On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:35:40 -0000 "kayb85" <sheran@...> writes:
> Your child asks you what kind of insect is
> crawling on a rock and you immediately tell her the name of the bug
> and a really interesting fact versus telling her you will look it up
> with her later, and either you forget to look it up or when you do,
> she has lost interest.

Sometimes it works that way... more often, I might say something like,
"Hmmm, it's got the same colors as a ladybug but it's a lot longer" and
she would say something like, "Yeah, but ladybugs are red with black
spots, this one is black with red spots." . Then we might theorize about
mutant ladybugs or remember that bug we saw at Ardenwood that looked
kind of the same except it was yellow... and we might never figure out
the name for the bug, but that's okay, we could always call it "The bug
we saw hiking at Tilden that day".

When we got home later, I might say something like, "Do you want to call
grandpa (entomology is one of his life-long hobbies) and ask about that
bug we saw?" Or Cacie might say that... or neither of us will. Six months
later, maybe we'll be watching PBS and suddenly call out "Hey, there's
That Bug We Saw at Tilden!". Or not. Or maybe she'll want to rush to the
nature center and ask them, and then check out a dozen books from the
library on bugs and go search for an identify hundreds of 'em. That
rarely happens.... sometimes, but rarely. And it's all okay.

I've been thinking lately that the measure of a person's ignorance (and I
don't necessarily mean that word negatively) is how little they think is
left to learn. When I was a kid, I thought I knew all of the animals in
the world - I'd been to the zoos, I'd read books, there were lions,
tigers, bears, etc., etc. Then one day I saw a llama. It really rocked my
world, shifted my paradigm. Now I see huge bodies of knowledge of which I
am almost totally ignorant, I can just see the outlines. My dad talks
about his butterflies and stamps, and both are really whole new worlds to
me - even though I've been using stamps and seeing butterflies for years
and years.

So, a kid may never learn what "that bug" was, but he may learn all about
stamp hinges and glues, or model trains, or human lactation, or weaving.
And it's all okay...

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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In a message dated 12/27/01 12:07:45 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:

<< How "fair" do we
need to be? And how unfair would it be to just say to people "If you don't
have a naturally burning curiosity and fairly quick mind, it's just not going
to work; buy a curriculum"? >>

Oh! Dar has a better angle on it: -=-I've been thinking lately that the
measure of a person's ignorance (and I don't necessarily mean that word
negatively) is how little they think is left to learn. -=-

If the parent thinks she knows it all and so getting a curriculum is all it
takes for her kids to learn it all too, that's a detriment.

<<A Zen story speaks of a learned scholar seeking the teachings of a Zen
master.  When the two finally met, the Zen master started pouring the scholar
a cup of tea.  He continued pouring the tea into a small cup, even after it
began to overflow.  The scholar pointed it out to the Master.  He replied:
"Ah, to fill any cup, you have to empty it first." >>

(Swiped off the internet...)


Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/27/2001 10:36:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:


> I have a friend who likes the idea of unschooling but worries that
> she's "not smart enough". She said that "smart" people know how to
> answer their children's questions on the spot and know enough in their
> own heads to point stuff out without planning ahead of time. I do see
> that she has a point. Your child asks you what kind of insect is
> crawling on a rock and you immediately tell her the name of the bug
> and a really interesting fact versus telling her you will look it up
> with her later, and either you forget to look it up or when you do,
> she has lost interest.

I wouldn't know an insect if it came up and bit me <G>.

I can say "I don't have a clue."

But I can also notice that my child seems to be developing an interest in
insects and I can notice that there is this insect exhbit at some museum and
I can make time to take her there. And I can get a little bug house thingie
and take her to the nature center and notice that they have a little workshop
about insects and I might even get her a book or at least show her that
section of the bookstore..... etc.

I don't have to know anything about insects to facilitate these things ---
and one thing will lead to another, maybe, and if my child REALLY is
interested in insects, we'll find ways for her to satisfying her desire to
learn.

--pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

My son and I went on a field trip ( there's that word) last August with a
group of what turned out to be mostly homeschoolers. It was a geological
excursion offered by the MT. Bureau of Mines and Geology.

On the way to the site folks were introducing themselves and explaining
their homeschooling. When it came to us, and the inevitable "What
curriculum do you use" question popped (pooped?) up, I said no
curriculum, we're unschoolers.
We might as well have said we were devils. It was pretty cold and
silent.
Once we were all out wandering around the country side, things warmed up
a little. Many of the people were taken with Dylan. He's not shy at all,
very engaging. He's articulate and knowledgeable. When some of the
adults couldn't push there way in to ask the geologist questions, they
were soon coming to Dylan and he'd say, "wow, that's a beautiful smokey
quartz" or " those are tourmaline crystals".

People were much more friendly on the way home, and finally one woman
asked the - don't you have to be really smart to unschool - question.
I said, I think, -you only need to like your kid and want him to be
happy. A few weeks later one of the women called me with questions
about unschooling. I think unschooling is to the school at home bunch,
what homeschooling is to public school parents. A kind of mysterious
land where you have to be a certified something or other to find your way
around.

Once on another list a mom kept insisting unschooling wouldn't work for
her kid. He had 42 different diseases, compulsions and disorders and not
one thing was right about him. And Dodd spoketh and said " dost thou
likest thy child?", and that was when the mom, when she was pressed,
came up with one or two nice things she could say about him. So maybe
unschooling won't work for every kid, but it will surely work for the
kids whose parents find them to be wonderful, interesting people, no
matter how much TV they watch.

Deb L




On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 14:03:45 EST SandraDodd@... writes:
> >>
>
> Then you sketch a picture of it while you're looking at it, or you
> talk about
> whether it can fly, and where you think it lives. You don't have to
> know
> facts to make a discussion interesting and thought-provoking.
>
> I've sometimes thought people need to be smart to unschool and need
> to have
> smart kids, but that's usually right after a discussion with someone
> who
> seems thick and resistent. Then I feel way more hopeful and
> expansive after
> that frustration wears off.
>
> I've seen families in which I don't think unschooling would even
> begin to
> work. But because of that should we (the greater "we" here--the
> families who
> are unschooling and excited about it) stop discussing it? How
> "fair" do we
> need to be? And how unfair would it be to just say to people "If
> you don't
> have a naturally burning curiosity and fairly quick mind, it's just
> not going
> to work; buy a curriculum"?
>
> It's a problem.
>
> Sandra

Joylyn

ddzimlew@... wrote:

> My son and I went on a field trip

hate that phrase.

> ( there's that word) last August with a
> group of what turned out to be mostly
> homeschoolers. It was a geological
> excursion offered by the MT. Bureau of
> Mines and Geology.
>
> On the way to the site folks were
> introducing themselves and explaining
> their homeschooling. When it came to us,
> and the inevitable "What
> curriculum do you use" question popped
> (pooped?) up, I said no
> curriculum, we're unschoolers.
> We might as well have said we were devils.
> It was pretty cold and
> silent.

yeah, I've been there....

>
> Once we were all out wandering around the
> country side, things warmed up
> a little. Many of the people were taken
> with Dylan. He's not shy at all,
> very engaging. He's articulate and
> knowledgeable. When some of the
> adults couldn't push there way in to ask
> the geologist questions, they
> were soon coming to Dylan and he'd say,
> "wow, that's a beautiful smokey
> quartz" or " those are tourmaline
> crystals".

This made me smile. How old is Dylan?

> People were much more friendly on the way
> home, and finally one woman
> asked the - don't you have to be really
> smart to unschool - question.
> I said, I think, -you only need to like
> your kid and want him to be
> happy. A few weeks later one of the women
> called me with questions
> about unschooling. I think unschooling is
> to the school at home bunch,
> what homeschooling is to public school
> parents. A kind of mysterious
> land where you have to be a certified
> something or other to find your way
> around.

this is kinda how I feel right now. I still
figuring out my way around.

> Once on another list a mom kept insisting
> unschooling wouldn't work for
> her kid. He had 42 different diseases,
> compulsions and disorders and not
> one thing was right about him. And Dodd
> spoketh and said " dost thou
> likest thy child?",

I think this is so important. Liking our
children.

> and that was when the mom, when she was
> pressed,
> came up with one or two nice things she
> could say about him. So maybe
> unschooling won't work for every kid, but
> it will surely work for the
> kids whose parents find them to be
> wonderful, interesting people, no
> matter how much TV they watch.

Yep!

joylyn

>
>
> Deb L
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 14:03:45 EST
> SandraDodd@... writes:
> > >>
> >
> > Then you sketch a picture of it while
> you're looking at it, or you
> > talk about
> > whether it can fly, and where you think
> it lives. You don't have to
> > know
> > facts to make a discussion interesting
> and thought-provoking.
> >
> > I've sometimes thought people need to be
> smart to unschool and need
> > to have
> > smart kids, but that's usually right
> after a discussion with someone
> > who
> > seems thick and resistent. Then I feel
> way more hopeful and
> > expansive after
> > that frustration wears off.
> >
> > I've seen families in which I don't think
> unschooling would even
> > begin to
> > work. But because of that should we (the
> greater "we" here--the
> > families who
> > are unschooling and excited about it)
> stop discussing it? How
> > "fair" do we
> > need to be? And how unfair would it be
> to just say to people "If
> > you don't
> > have a naturally burning curiosity and
> fairly quick mind, it's just
> > not going
> > to work; buy a curriculum"?
> >
> > It's a problem.
> >
> > Sandra
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> This made me smile. How old is Dylan?

He's nine. He's great, one of the smartest people I know. He makes us
smile all the time.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/27/01 12:22:41 PM, SandraDodd@... writes:

<< <>


(Swiped off the internet...) >>

And then swiped right off my post!???
What the heck was that?

Here without dangerous quotations is a story I didn't write OR retell, but
borrowed whole from elsewhere:

A Zen story speaks of a learned scholar seeking the teachings of a Zen
master.  When the two finally met, the Zen master started pouring the scholar
a cup of tea.  He continued pouring the tea into a small cup, even after it
began to overflow.  The scholar pointed it out to the Master.  He replied:
"Ah, to fill any cup, you have to empty it first." 


Sandra

Pam Hartley

I've been in a small (three families including us) co-op for about 18
months. We're there for the socialization. <g> But it's also a speech and
craft and science project sort of thing, and the two other Moms,
structured-homeschooling-junkies to the core (one is a former teacher and
still sounds just like it) are very calm and relaxed about Brit being
off-topic consistently, or there just to play, or making her craft project
upside-down and backward. <g>

The former teacher has been asking me a lot recently for ideas for her
middle child, her only daughter, who is brilliantly artistic and sensitive
and is frustrating the frijoles out of her mother by working to the lowest
possible level with all the "schoolwork" she is given, memorizing it long
enough to recite it, and then promptly forgetting it.

I don't know how to say this without sounding like I have a head the size of
Kansas, but here goes: We're good for other homeschoolers. Even if they
never completely grasp unschooling, they grasp relaxing a little, and then a
little more, and that can't be anything but good for their kids. They see
that SOMETHING is working for our kids, and it's impossible to deny that our
little humanoids ARE learning, AREN'T eating with their toes, and CAN, by
golly, get into colleges that don't start with the word "Remedial".

If a frazzled curriculum-using tv-denying Mom sees our kids happy, healthy,
learning in spite of (or, as most of us realize, BECAUSE of) Pokemon at 5
p.m., she can only shrug it off for so long and remain honest with herself.

Pam
----------
From: ddzimlew@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschooling not working??
Date: Thu, Dec 27, 2001, 12:00 PM


People were much more friendly on the way home, and finally one woman
asked the - don't you have to be really smart to unschool - question.
I said, I think, -you only need to like your kid and want him to be
happy. A few weeks later one of the women called me with questions
about unschooling. I think unschooling is to the school at home bunch,
what homeschooling is to public school parents. A kind of mysterious
land where you have to be a certified something or other to find your way
around.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/27/01 5:39:11 PM, pamhartley@... writes:

<< one is a former teacher and
still sounds just like it >>

Me too!!

I just was a radical "we don't need textbooks, let's just play with words"
teacher!

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/27/01 5:39:11 PM, pamhartley@... writes:

<< I don't know how to say this without sounding like I have a head the size
of
Kansas, but here goes: We're good for other homeschoolers. Even if they
never completely grasp unschooling, they grasp relaxing a little, and then a
little more, and that can't be anything but good for their kids. They see
that SOMETHING is working for our kids, and it's impossible to deny that our
little humanoids ARE learning, AREN'T eating with their toes, and CAN, by
golly, get into colleges that don't start with the word "Remedial". >>

I kinda made that point, sort of, once speaking in Riverside. I defined one
end of the stage area as "Swiss Boarding School" and the other end total
unschooling. And I said that by the existence of those who stretch the
envelope, those in the middle can move more toward the radical side with more
ease.

It was more physically presented, not those exact words. But for those who
fear the edge, moving the edge further away gives them more safety.

Sandra.

Tia Leschke

>
>
>Ever since Bridget said this I have been wondering, how does unschooling
>not work for every kid?? The essence of unschooling for me is that
>the child is in control as much as possible. It is focused on what the
>child wants to do/learn/experience. I can think of some things that
>I might keep from my child from experiencing right now - safety things
>like working with live electricity or playing on freeways or climbing
>really high without proper safety equipment, etc. I also hear from
>time to time - "we unschool except for _fill_in_subject_." Is this
>a misunderstanding about what unschooling is or what??

I think that she believes it works for her daughters because they are
turning out more or less the way she wants them to. Her son isn't living
up to her expectations when making his own choices so they need to be taken
from him.

I can understand people saying something like, "We lean toward unschooling
but haven't quite been able to make the break in the math area." Or
something like that. But, "We unschool except for...." just doesn't cut it
for me.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Nancy Wooton

on 12/27/01 11:03 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> << Your child asks you what kind of insect is
> crawling on a rock and you immediately tell her the name of the bug
> and a really interesting fact versus telling her you will look it up
> with her later, and either you forget to look it up or when you do,
> she has lost interest.
>>>
>
> Then you sketch a picture of it while you're looking at it, or you talk about
> whether it can fly, and where you think it lives. You don't have to know
> facts to make a discussion interesting and thought-provoking.

*Someplace* I've read a story about a scientist, it might be Richard
Feynman, whose father knew a tremendous amount about birds. When he and his
children birdwatched, he would not tell them the name of the bird they
observed; instead, they would really *look* at it, its color, size, beak
shape, feet, behavior, etc. He felt that once the thing was named, the
learning stopped. Think how many people believe if they know what something
is called, that's all they need to know!

Nancy

meghan anderson

<<<<Once on another list a mom kept insisting
unschooling wouldn't work for her kid. He had 42
different diseases, compulsions and disorders and not
one thing was right about him. And Dodd spoketh and
said " dost thou likest thy child?", and that was
when the mom, when she was pressed,
came up with one or two nice things she could say
about him. So maybe unschooling won't work for every
kid, but it will surely work for the kids whose
parents find them to be wonderful, interesting people,
no matter how much TV they watch.

Deb L >>>>

Oh yes, I remember it well.

It always amazes me when I talk to people about what
we 'do' and they immediately say, "it's alright for
you, you're college educated and intelligent". I laugh
and tell them, "I haven't got a college degree. But
yes, I am intelligent and I'm sure you are too, if you
want to be". There are so many questions that I don't
have the answers to, but that's why we have books,
libraries and the internet. I carry around a mini
notebook and when Tamzin asks a question that I don't
know the answer to, she decides if she wants me to
write it in the book to look up later. One or more
times a week, I read off the questions to her and she
decides which ones she'd like to have the answers to
and we look them up. It's a very simple system and I'm
learning so much alongside of her.
Speaking of TV, Tamzin's really into classics at the
moment. We went to the video store and she chose The
Wizard of Oz, The Little Colonel (Shirley Temple), and
The Little Rascals. She is obsessed with Shirley
Temple at the moment. She puts on puffy dresses and
dances around the house. Too cute! I've got a Shirley
Temple LP from when I was a kid, but no LP player.
Does anyone know if you can get LPs transferred onto
CD?

Meghan :-)

__________________________________________________
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[email protected]

I think you're right Pam, and if we all end up with heads the size of
Kansas, we'll just be that much easier to spot.

Deb L

On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 16:35:05 -0800 Pam Hartley
<pamhartley@...> writes:
...
> I don't know how to say this without sounding like I have a head the
> size of
> Kansas, but here goes: We're good for other homeschoolers. Even if
> they
> never completely grasp unschooling, they grasp relaxing a little,
> and then a
> little more, and that can't be anything but good for their kids.
> They see
> that SOMETHING is working for our kids, and it's impossible to deny
> that our
> little humanoids ARE learning, AREN'T eating with their toes, and
> CAN, by
> golly, get into colleges that don't start with the word "Remedial".
>
> If a frazzled curriculum-using tv-denying Mom sees our kids happy,
> healthy,
> learning in spite of (or, as most of us realize, BECAUSE of) Pokemon
> at 5
> p.m., she can only shrug it off for so long and remain honest with
> herself.
>
> Pam

Tia Leschke

>Too cute! I've got a Shirley
>Temple LP from when I was a kid, but no LP player.
>Does anyone know if you can get LPs transferred onto
>CD?

If you find an answer to that, could you please post it or send it
privately? We have a *huge* collection of LPs. We've talked about putting
them on tape. (We do still have a turntable, but they're getting hard to
find.) But tape doesn't last very well. I'd much rather put them on CDs
if there's a reasonably cheap and easy way to do it.
Tia


>Meghan :-)
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
>http://greetings.yahoo.com
>
>
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>[email protected]
>
>
>
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No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Dan Vilter

on 12/28/01 9:22 AM, Tia Leschke at leschke@... wrote:

> I'd much rather put them on CDs
> if there's a reasonably cheap and easy way to do it.
> Tia

Depending on how many you want to do, I'll bet the cheapest way to go is to
burn [record or transfer] them yourself. We have a $200 CD writer (you can
get them cheaper now) that is plugged into our 3 year old Mac. I bought the
program Toast Titanium for $90 (the product for the PC is CD Creator I
think, Roxio is the publisher) it comes with software that helps filter out
clicks and pops and background noise. They even include a cable to go
between the computer and HiFi. The cheapest blank CDs I've found is free
after a rebate bought at Office Max. If you can't find a good sale $.20 to
.35 is typical if you buy them quantities of 50 or more.

So how many CDs can you buy for $290 or less? If you can find them.

You do have to listen to all those LPs you're transferring though. <G>

-Dan Vilter