morality question
[email protected]
Hi all,
My 6.5 year old son enjoys telling fibs, like my dad is a pro baseball player, which Tim is not. He also loves stealing things from his sister, like her trophies or special cards.He had taken gum from the stores and money from tip jars, pens from the art center. Yesterday at swim practice, the kids who could swim under the lanes without coming up for air were rewarded with a candy bar. Riley told me he gets a candy bar, but then told me he really did not swim the whole length of the pool. So, I'm thinking I need to help him be honest. Winning for Riley is very important. I could induce a major meltdown pushing this issue. I for one am not into rewards such as this and would give all the kids candy for doing their own best. So, any opinions out there how to help guide Riley to speak honestly.
Mary H.
And I will be coordinating the children's playroom at the Home=Ed conference in Sac. next weekend. So there I will be playing on the floor with all the little ones.
My 6.5 year old son enjoys telling fibs, like my dad is a pro baseball player, which Tim is not. He also loves stealing things from his sister, like her trophies or special cards.He had taken gum from the stores and money from tip jars, pens from the art center. Yesterday at swim practice, the kids who could swim under the lanes without coming up for air were rewarded with a candy bar. Riley told me he gets a candy bar, but then told me he really did not swim the whole length of the pool. So, I'm thinking I need to help him be honest. Winning for Riley is very important. I could induce a major meltdown pushing this issue. I for one am not into rewards such as this and would give all the kids candy for doing their own best. So, any opinions out there how to help guide Riley to speak honestly.
Mary H.
And I will be coordinating the children's playroom at the Home=Ed conference in Sac. next weekend. So there I will be playing on the floor with all the little ones.
Kathleen and David Gehrke
Hi Mary,
I think sometimes the world of a six and a half year
old has pretend very close to reality. I know
sometimes my plans are very unconventional but my idea
is play it through.Like go with it," it would be soo
cool if dad was a pro baseball player,. Lets
pretend....." Taking things that do not belong is just
repetition and returning and reminding compassion.
With all eight of mine we have returned items,
especially around that age. And then discussed how we
feel is someone takes our stuff.. Yuck.
When I was a child I was the queen of story telling.
The bigger the better and now I am sometimes more
honest than I should be for my own protection. Maybe
his imagination is in overdrive.. not such a bad
thing.. Try feeding that creativity for pretend in
other ways..
If none of this fits.. disregard it and good luck/
Kathleen
--- maryfhickman@... wrote:
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I think sometimes the world of a six and a half year
old has pretend very close to reality. I know
sometimes my plans are very unconventional but my idea
is play it through.Like go with it," it would be soo
cool if dad was a pro baseball player,. Lets
pretend....." Taking things that do not belong is just
repetition and returning and reminding compassion.
With all eight of mine we have returned items,
especially around that age. And then discussed how we
feel is someone takes our stuff.. Yuck.
When I was a child I was the queen of story telling.
The bigger the better and now I am sometimes more
honest than I should be for my own protection. Maybe
his imagination is in overdrive.. not such a bad
thing.. Try feeding that creativity for pretend in
other ways..
If none of this fits.. disregard it and good luck/
Kathleen
--- maryfhickman@... wrote:
> Hi all,__________________________________
>
> My 6.5 year old son enjoys telling fibs, like my dad
> is a pro baseball player, which Tim is not. He also
> loves stealing things from his sister, like her
> trophies or special cards.He had taken gum from the
> stores and money from tip jars, pens from the art
> center. Yesterday at swim practice, the kids who
> could swim under the lanes without coming up for air
> were rewarded with a candy bar. Riley told me he
> gets a candy bar, but then told me he really did not
> swim the whole length of the pool. So, I'm thinking
> I need to help him be honest. Winning for Riley is
> very important. I could induce a major meltdown
> pushing this issue. I for one am not into rewards
> such as this and would give all the kids candy for
> doing their own best. So, any opinions out there how
> to help guide Riley to speak honestly.
>
> Mary H.
>
> And I will be coordinating the children's playroom
> at the Home=Ed conference in Sac. next weekend. So
> there I will be playing on the floor with all the
> little ones.
>
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Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/03 2:59:13 PM, gehrkes@... writes:
<< When I was a child I was the queen of story telling.
The bigger the better and now I am sometimes more
honest than I should be for my own protection. >>
If you have a story like that, of Kathleen's, maybe you could tell it in kid
terms.
Marty was my fantasy-spinning kid, and a few times I had a serious
conversation with him about it, in private, and as kindly as I could.
I remember once telling him that it was okay to be full of those stories and
ideas but that it was really important that he was clear with others about
what TRULY happened and what he thinks would be cool. That if he says "Wouldn't
it be fun if..." he'll be telling the truth, but if he starts with "One time
I..." then it becomes a lie.
What I've told my kids about lying is that some people do it a little and
some people do it a lot, and it's important to try to do it not at all, because
the people they most like and respect will not want to be friends with them and
won't trust them if they can't rely on them to say what is true. And I've
said too that I want to ALWAYS believe what they say, so it's important to their
relationship with me, and to their self image and self knowledge, that
they're careful to separate wish from reality.
I've used odds and turd-in-the-lemonade analogies to help them see that if a
person lies just ten percent of the time, the other 90 percent isn't worth
much, because each statement is likely to be a lie. With odds that, it's a GOOD
bet, and when it's a good bet someone is lying, soon people won't even have an
interest in talking to him. If there's a turd in the lemonade, where do you
want to stick the dipper so that you get clean lemonade?
If you say "don't lie because it's wrong" that means little to a child, but
if you say something directly about his relationships right now, today, with
his family and friends, that will be more helpful, I think.
Sandra
<< When I was a child I was the queen of story telling.
The bigger the better and now I am sometimes more
honest than I should be for my own protection. >>
If you have a story like that, of Kathleen's, maybe you could tell it in kid
terms.
Marty was my fantasy-spinning kid, and a few times I had a serious
conversation with him about it, in private, and as kindly as I could.
I remember once telling him that it was okay to be full of those stories and
ideas but that it was really important that he was clear with others about
what TRULY happened and what he thinks would be cool. That if he says "Wouldn't
it be fun if..." he'll be telling the truth, but if he starts with "One time
I..." then it becomes a lie.
What I've told my kids about lying is that some people do it a little and
some people do it a lot, and it's important to try to do it not at all, because
the people they most like and respect will not want to be friends with them and
won't trust them if they can't rely on them to say what is true. And I've
said too that I want to ALWAYS believe what they say, so it's important to their
relationship with me, and to their self image and self knowledge, that
they're careful to separate wish from reality.
I've used odds and turd-in-the-lemonade analogies to help them see that if a
person lies just ten percent of the time, the other 90 percent isn't worth
much, because each statement is likely to be a lie. With odds that, it's a GOOD
bet, and when it's a good bet someone is lying, soon people won't even have an
interest in talking to him. If there's a turd in the lemonade, where do you
want to stick the dipper so that you get clean lemonade?
If you say "don't lie because it's wrong" that means little to a child, but
if you say something directly about his relationships right now, today, with
his family and friends, that will be more helpful, I think.
Sandra
[email protected]
--- maryfhickman@... wrote:
Dar
>>>Yesterday at swim practice, the kids who could swim under the lanes without coming up for air were rewarded with a candy bar. Riley told me he gets a candy bar, but then told me he really did not swim the whole length of the pool.<<<I agree that it's pretty typical 6 stuff. Also, I've told Rain that whenever she's in a situation where they offer a prize like that, just let me know afterwards and I'll buy her whatever the prize was. And if she'd like to share that knowledge with the instructors, that's fine with me. It came up at a theater workshop she was doing in Woodland this summer, where they were offering prizes to the kids who decorated their folders "best". :-P
Dar
Retta Fontana
I really don't think this is a morality question.
My son around age 2.5, used to run up to any little girl he saw and hit her with a fist in the face. He had never been hit or slapped, had never seen it on tv or anywhere to my knowledge. Every time he did this I was mortified. This went on for about six months. Today he's 15 and won't even kill spiders "because they're defenseless." So his acts of aggression said nothing about his character. It must have been something he saw somewhere and he needed to work out. I talked to him over and over about it, but his understanding wasn't there. They aren't capable of empathy or intellectual thought until much later. In "The Magical Child" they explain that learning only takes place through action in youngsters. In that situation the only thing I could do was keep my eyes open and jump in before he made contact.
I think if he were going through what you describe at 6.5 yrs, I would invite him to make up the most fantasic story he could and I'd type it up on the computer, put it together with pictures, embelish it as much as possible and bind it to make a book. I would encourage his magical thinking in a conspiratorial way. For instance, the pool incident? I'd say, ooooh! You're feeling creative again! Is it time to write another story?
If we resist a behavior, they will continue it. One thing the Waldorf philosophy espouses is to meet the child where they're at. This situation is really no different, other than the comfort level of the mother!! I know I'd be pretty stressed about it. I'd constantly have to remind myself of the child's basic goodness, that he just doesn't understand the norms.
Do let us know how you make out.
Fondly,
Retta
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My son around age 2.5, used to run up to any little girl he saw and hit her with a fist in the face. He had never been hit or slapped, had never seen it on tv or anywhere to my knowledge. Every time he did this I was mortified. This went on for about six months. Today he's 15 and won't even kill spiders "because they're defenseless." So his acts of aggression said nothing about his character. It must have been something he saw somewhere and he needed to work out. I talked to him over and over about it, but his understanding wasn't there. They aren't capable of empathy or intellectual thought until much later. In "The Magical Child" they explain that learning only takes place through action in youngsters. In that situation the only thing I could do was keep my eyes open and jump in before he made contact.
I think if he were going through what you describe at 6.5 yrs, I would invite him to make up the most fantasic story he could and I'd type it up on the computer, put it together with pictures, embelish it as much as possible and bind it to make a book. I would encourage his magical thinking in a conspiratorial way. For instance, the pool incident? I'd say, ooooh! You're feeling creative again! Is it time to write another story?
If we resist a behavior, they will continue it. One thing the Waldorf philosophy espouses is to meet the child where they're at. This situation is really no different, other than the comfort level of the mother!! I know I'd be pretty stressed about it. I'd constantly have to remind myself of the child's basic goodness, that he just doesn't understand the norms.
Do let us know how you make out.
Fondly,
Retta
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I'm just back from taking Kirby to work. Yesterday he overslept and arrived
at 12:17 when he was supposed to have been there at 11:30 to open the store
at noon. There were others in the back, and when they realized he wasn't
there, they opened at 12:15.
He was really afraid yesterday he would be fired. I wasn't the least bit
worried about that.
Today on the way he said "I'm the first person who's ever gone in that late
and not been fired on the spot."
It gave me a good opportunity to discuss something I've tried to discuss with
him in the past and he had no way to understand it.
He's worked there for three years now, since he turned 14. That's the second
time he has overslept in all that time. He has been too sick twice--once to
sick for his own shift, and once too sick to take another person's shift.
That's one absence from illness, in three years.
When his drawer was short once, he was not suspected at all. When there were
things missing during his shift no one even began to suspect that he had been
irresponsible (or worse, involved in the theft).
He's seen others be let go for missing cash or items.
So I was able to tell him that people earn points with other people, and
those who don't believe it and don't bother are the ones who will be let go for
one offense. If people do just barely what's required of them, they have no
"credit" with the other person, but if they do more than necessary (in any way),
they'll never be fired for one minor failure.
And so it is with being truthful.
I have friends who have lied to me or to others, and so I don't trust their
stories or their promises or their accounts of what happened. I have friends
who have not only NOT lied that I know of, but when they've just been mistaken
in a detail about something, they'll come back later and correct it. When
those two friends give conflicting accounts of something, I'll believe the
second one over the first one.
That's what integrity is about.
And yes, six year old are too little to even begin to understand that. And
Kirby was seventeen and a week before he had cause to get the concept.
But there ARE ways to communicate a little of that to litte children, in
little-kid terms, and it's worth doing. The story of the boy who cried 'wolf'
exists for that very purpose.
It IS a morality problem, ultimately.
I have a friend who came to truthfulness in his 30's. Before that he was
more attached to his mother's method and habits, and that was she lied. She lied
to cover herself and she lied to make her children "right." If someone had
come and said "Your kid was throwing rocks," she would have said "No, he was
home" without a glance to left or right, because her need to look good was
greater than her desire for objective truth. They instructed their children what
to lie about and how to lie and when and to whom.
As he got older (and hung around with me, and some other people who honestly
did care what was true and what was not) he changed. He clung to his old ways
for several years, justifying little lies, justifying saying you weren't home
if you were, but he no longer feels that way and I've heard him telling his
younger friends and his children that truth is important.
Sandra
at 12:17 when he was supposed to have been there at 11:30 to open the store
at noon. There were others in the back, and when they realized he wasn't
there, they opened at 12:15.
He was really afraid yesterday he would be fired. I wasn't the least bit
worried about that.
Today on the way he said "I'm the first person who's ever gone in that late
and not been fired on the spot."
It gave me a good opportunity to discuss something I've tried to discuss with
him in the past and he had no way to understand it.
He's worked there for three years now, since he turned 14. That's the second
time he has overslept in all that time. He has been too sick twice--once to
sick for his own shift, and once too sick to take another person's shift.
That's one absence from illness, in three years.
When his drawer was short once, he was not suspected at all. When there were
things missing during his shift no one even began to suspect that he had been
irresponsible (or worse, involved in the theft).
He's seen others be let go for missing cash or items.
So I was able to tell him that people earn points with other people, and
those who don't believe it and don't bother are the ones who will be let go for
one offense. If people do just barely what's required of them, they have no
"credit" with the other person, but if they do more than necessary (in any way),
they'll never be fired for one minor failure.
And so it is with being truthful.
I have friends who have lied to me or to others, and so I don't trust their
stories or their promises or their accounts of what happened. I have friends
who have not only NOT lied that I know of, but when they've just been mistaken
in a detail about something, they'll come back later and correct it. When
those two friends give conflicting accounts of something, I'll believe the
second one over the first one.
That's what integrity is about.
And yes, six year old are too little to even begin to understand that. And
Kirby was seventeen and a week before he had cause to get the concept.
But there ARE ways to communicate a little of that to litte children, in
little-kid terms, and it's worth doing. The story of the boy who cried 'wolf'
exists for that very purpose.
It IS a morality problem, ultimately.
I have a friend who came to truthfulness in his 30's. Before that he was
more attached to his mother's method and habits, and that was she lied. She lied
to cover herself and she lied to make her children "right." If someone had
come and said "Your kid was throwing rocks," she would have said "No, he was
home" without a glance to left or right, because her need to look good was
greater than her desire for objective truth. They instructed their children what
to lie about and how to lie and when and to whom.
As he got older (and hung around with me, and some other people who honestly
did care what was true and what was not) he changed. He clung to his old ways
for several years, justifying little lies, justifying saying you weren't home
if you were, but he no longer feels that way and I've heard him telling his
younger friends and his children that truth is important.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/7/2003 2:35:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
been working at Hooligan's Deli for six months. His bosses, Ivan & Gris, come
out often to tell ME how well he's doing and how pleased they are with his
work. They tell him almost every day.
A few weeks ago, Ben asked what *exactly* was so good about what he was
doing. They said that he was always on time, that he's happy to be there (not
always true, but he doesn't let on that he'd rather be somewhere else), that he
goes above & beyond what they expect: he'll see something that needs to be done
and do it rather than walk by and "not see" it. He likes things clean and
orderly and is happy to make them that way. If he does something wrong, he accepts
the blame (instead of saying, "I didn't to that") and asks what he can do to
correct it: "if you tell me how you want it done, I'll do it that way." They
can call him in when others don't show, and he is the first one they call for
optional "extra" hours.
He got his first raise last paycheck. Only .25/hour more, but it was a boost,
and he appreciated it. They also gave him his choice of hours now that the
school kids are back in school. He wants 11:30-3or4 Mon-Fri. Done deal.
He asked why he was getting so much attention---they don't shower all the
other kids this way. I told him that they've found him to be a trustworthy,
honest, dependable worker with a good work-ethic. That kind of employee is hard to
find. Someone who does *just* a little bit more and doesn't try to skate by
for a paycheck.
We were almost late yesterday (wound up on the dot, but he was scared of
being late). I told him not to worry---that Ivan and Gris KNOW he's dependable and
would never be late if it were remotely avoidable. They wouldn't fire him for
a minor transgression with his track record.
I'll forward him your e-mail too---so he can see he's not the only one! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> It gave me a good opportunity to discuss something I've tried to discussCameron's in the same spot (except not so long at this job, his first). He's
> with
> him in the past and he had no way to understand it.
>
> He's worked there for three years now, since he turned 14. That's the
> second
> time he has overslept in all that time. He has been too sick twice--once to
>
> sick for his own shift, and once too sick to take another person's shift.
> That's one absence from illness, in three years.
>
> When his drawer was short once, he was not suspected at all. When there
> were
> things missing during his shift no one even began to suspect that he had
> been
> irresponsible (or worse, involved in the theft).
>
> He's seen others be let go for missing cash or items.
>
> So I was able to tell him that people earn points with other people, and
> those who don't believe it and don't bother are the ones who will be let go
> for
> one offense. If people do just barely what's required of them, they have no
>
> "credit" with the other person, but if they do more than necessary (in any
> way),
> they'll never be fired for one minor failure.
>
been working at Hooligan's Deli for six months. His bosses, Ivan & Gris, come
out often to tell ME how well he's doing and how pleased they are with his
work. They tell him almost every day.
A few weeks ago, Ben asked what *exactly* was so good about what he was
doing. They said that he was always on time, that he's happy to be there (not
always true, but he doesn't let on that he'd rather be somewhere else), that he
goes above & beyond what they expect: he'll see something that needs to be done
and do it rather than walk by and "not see" it. He likes things clean and
orderly and is happy to make them that way. If he does something wrong, he accepts
the blame (instead of saying, "I didn't to that") and asks what he can do to
correct it: "if you tell me how you want it done, I'll do it that way." They
can call him in when others don't show, and he is the first one they call for
optional "extra" hours.
He got his first raise last paycheck. Only .25/hour more, but it was a boost,
and he appreciated it. They also gave him his choice of hours now that the
school kids are back in school. He wants 11:30-3or4 Mon-Fri. Done deal.
He asked why he was getting so much attention---they don't shower all the
other kids this way. I told him that they've found him to be a trustworthy,
honest, dependable worker with a good work-ethic. That kind of employee is hard to
find. Someone who does *just* a little bit more and doesn't try to skate by
for a paycheck.
We were almost late yesterday (wound up on the dot, but he was scared of
being late). I told him not to worry---that Ivan and Gris KNOW he's dependable and
would never be late if it were remotely avoidable. They wouldn't fire him for
a minor transgression with his track record.
I'll forward him your e-mail too---so he can see he's not the only one! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kris
<<Hi all,
My 6.5 year old son enjoys telling fibs, like my dad is a pro baseball
player, which Tim is not. He also loves stealing things from his sister,
like her trophies or special cards.He had taken gum from the stores and
money from tip jars, pens from the art center. Yesterday at swim practice,
the kids who could swim under the lanes without coming up for air were
rewarded with a candy bar. Riley told me he gets a candy bar, but then told
me he really did not swim the whole length of the pool. So, I'm thinking I
need to help him be honest. Winning for Riley is very important. I could
induce a major meltdown pushing this issue. I for one am not into rewards
such as this and would give all the kids candy for doing their own best. So,
any opinions out there how to help guide Riley to speak honestly.
Mary H>>
When Lanora was 3 I caught her in a lie and she asked if she was in trouble.
I told her that I would never punish her for lying because no one could make
her tell the truth. "If you want people to believe you then you will be
honest."
Obviously, it didn't take completely then but over the next few years it
did. A friend recently said that they liked spending time with her because
she is honest, I don't think she knew anyone else her own age who was.
As for me, this was my first lesson in how punishment stunts progress, keeps
children from internalizing morality. As usual, I learned as much as she
did.
Of course, Jonathan may be another story but so far he seems to be quite
honest.
Kris
My 6.5 year old son enjoys telling fibs, like my dad is a pro baseball
player, which Tim is not. He also loves stealing things from his sister,
like her trophies or special cards.He had taken gum from the stores and
money from tip jars, pens from the art center. Yesterday at swim practice,
the kids who could swim under the lanes without coming up for air were
rewarded with a candy bar. Riley told me he gets a candy bar, but then told
me he really did not swim the whole length of the pool. So, I'm thinking I
need to help him be honest. Winning for Riley is very important. I could
induce a major meltdown pushing this issue. I for one am not into rewards
such as this and would give all the kids candy for doing their own best. So,
any opinions out there how to help guide Riley to speak honestly.
Mary H>>
When Lanora was 3 I caught her in a lie and she asked if she was in trouble.
I told her that I would never punish her for lying because no one could make
her tell the truth. "If you want people to believe you then you will be
honest."
Obviously, it didn't take completely then but over the next few years it
did. A friend recently said that they liked spending time with her because
she is honest, I don't think she knew anyone else her own age who was.
As for me, this was my first lesson in how punishment stunts progress, keeps
children from internalizing morality. As usual, I learned as much as she
did.
Of course, Jonathan may be another story but so far he seems to be quite
honest.
Kris
Betsy
**If he does something wrong, he accepts
the blame (instead of saying, "I didn't to that")**
I think this quality has really got to spring from parents who honestly
admit when they have made a mistake. (I don't remember if Sandra was
talking about that here or on unschooling-discussion, but I'm connecting
this desirable kid quality to her recommended desirable parent quality.)
Betsy
the blame (instead of saying, "I didn't to that")**
I think this quality has really got to spring from parents who honestly
admit when they have made a mistake. (I don't remember if Sandra was
talking about that here or on unschooling-discussion, but I'm connecting
this desirable kid quality to her recommended desirable parent quality.)
Betsy
Ren
"I for one am not into rewards such as this and would give all the
kids candy for doing their own best."
How about a candy whenever they want one and forget about rewarding for any kind of behavior?
Read "punished by rewards", I think it really helps open the mind to how our society is backwards that way! Why not come up with some cooperative games that don't require anyone winning? And give him the candy regardless ....instead of making him jump through some hoop. If it's someone else doing it, just tell him you'll buy him candy and he doesn't have to do anything for them to get anything!! Crazy.
Sounds like he's pretty honest, he told YOU the truth.
Ren
kids candy for doing their own best."
How about a candy whenever they want one and forget about rewarding for any kind of behavior?
Read "punished by rewards", I think it really helps open the mind to how our society is backwards that way! Why not come up with some cooperative games that don't require anyone winning? And give him the candy regardless ....instead of making him jump through some hoop. If it's someone else doing it, just tell him you'll buy him candy and he doesn't have to do anything for them to get anything!! Crazy.
Sounds like he's pretty honest, he told YOU the truth.
Ren