I'm new to this group
Retta Fontana
I've been lurking in this group for a while. The more I read, the more convinced I am that I've come "home." I'm a radical unschooler, gentle parent. I heard somewhere that a parent's only real job is to find out what their children really want and encourage them to do it. That clicked with me.
I do feel compelled to address this issue of new people. I think there are a lot of really stupid people in the world. "Sheeple" I've heard them called. I used to be a sheeple. I also think there are stupid questions ("do you want me to hit you?" for instance.) However, we can all be stupid, even arrogant, about things we're ignorant of, and if new people aren't allowed to ask questions without others taking their silly insinuations personally, then what is the point? We can't control other people anyway, or get them to stop doing what makes us uncomfortable. We can't unschool our children gently but tell other parents that they shouldn't ask questions.
I lurk because that is my m.o. I stick my toes in the pool and then sit down and think about it. Now my daughter, she never hesitates or even tests the water, she jumps in at the deep end. I think both learning styles are good and appropriate.
When I started homeschooling I hated the regimentation, but I was convinced that "letting go absolutely" of an agenda would not only land me in jail, but would leave my kid shortchanged, convinced she was unloved. (That was stupid!) After a while and with a lot of coaching I realized that acting on those fears was actually admitting that I didn't trust my children. I didn't trust in their own innate wisdom and goodness - painful realization, as I fancied myself one terrific, conscientious mother.
I had to see this first, then from there it wasn't a big jump to deciding that trusting them was the only thing I could do. I got out of my head and into my heart where I knew the truth - that they are good, trustworthy and capable, and that I'm not the all-powerful Oz (but am also good, trustworthy and capable, sometimes stupid.) We are both whole human beings, nothing left out.
We've been homeschooling for 1.5 years now after a stint in a Waldorf school, following a couple of years "sentence" in (god forgive me) public school. I know my daughter is healing because she started mocking my aerobic dance workout - very funny. I've decided not to feel guilty for neglecting their education all those years "in school" because they tell me all the time how happy they are to be free. They thank me for doing what I do.
Newcomers should be treated like adopted children - give them a lot of slack, tenderness, and time to catch up. Remember that their sometimes sarcastic insinuations are the pain that they bring with them from other places, it's only about you if you decide to take it on. Trust in their innate goodness and wisdom, even if it's been covered up by years in an institution. Someone gave me that tolerance, or I don't know where I'd be.
I loved the volunteer pumpkin story - can now grow up to be a good citizen. Sophisticated group!!
Retta Fontana
"Government, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." G. Washington
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do feel compelled to address this issue of new people. I think there are a lot of really stupid people in the world. "Sheeple" I've heard them called. I used to be a sheeple. I also think there are stupid questions ("do you want me to hit you?" for instance.) However, we can all be stupid, even arrogant, about things we're ignorant of, and if new people aren't allowed to ask questions without others taking their silly insinuations personally, then what is the point? We can't control other people anyway, or get them to stop doing what makes us uncomfortable. We can't unschool our children gently but tell other parents that they shouldn't ask questions.
I lurk because that is my m.o. I stick my toes in the pool and then sit down and think about it. Now my daughter, she never hesitates or even tests the water, she jumps in at the deep end. I think both learning styles are good and appropriate.
When I started homeschooling I hated the regimentation, but I was convinced that "letting go absolutely" of an agenda would not only land me in jail, but would leave my kid shortchanged, convinced she was unloved. (That was stupid!) After a while and with a lot of coaching I realized that acting on those fears was actually admitting that I didn't trust my children. I didn't trust in their own innate wisdom and goodness - painful realization, as I fancied myself one terrific, conscientious mother.
I had to see this first, then from there it wasn't a big jump to deciding that trusting them was the only thing I could do. I got out of my head and into my heart where I knew the truth - that they are good, trustworthy and capable, and that I'm not the all-powerful Oz (but am also good, trustworthy and capable, sometimes stupid.) We are both whole human beings, nothing left out.
We've been homeschooling for 1.5 years now after a stint in a Waldorf school, following a couple of years "sentence" in (god forgive me) public school. I know my daughter is healing because she started mocking my aerobic dance workout - very funny. I've decided not to feel guilty for neglecting their education all those years "in school" because they tell me all the time how happy they are to be free. They thank me for doing what I do.
Newcomers should be treated like adopted children - give them a lot of slack, tenderness, and time to catch up. Remember that their sometimes sarcastic insinuations are the pain that they bring with them from other places, it's only about you if you decide to take it on. Trust in their innate goodness and wisdom, even if it's been covered up by years in an institution. Someone gave me that tolerance, or I don't know where I'd be.
I loved the volunteer pumpkin story - can now grow up to be a good citizen. Sophisticated group!!
Retta Fontana
"Government, like fire, is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." G. Washington
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/03 11:01:09 AM, rettafontana@... writes:
<< I think there are a lot of really stupid people in the world. "Sheeple"
I've heard them called >>
That's a cool term! Much warmer and fuzzier than the "pancake" or "fish"
terms my friends and I have used when trying to discuss that difficult concept.
I don't know how much is genetic and how much is conditioning when it comes
to leader/follower aspects of people. The species probably couldn't survive if
everyone came along with equal leadership capabality.
<<there are stupid questions ("do you want me to hit you?" for instance.) >>
That's what my nextdoor neighbor was yelling at his wife the day I blasted
over there, banged on his door (which opened, and I walked in to the middle of
his living room and THEN realized I was holding an infant Holly) and said (with
feeling) "Shut the fuck up." Just as I had left the house he had changed to
"You WANT me to hit you, don't you?"
That was in our old neighborhood, and the police had come several time. I
used to let their little boy hang around at our house just as much as he wanted
to, before they moved, taking our spare tire with them never to return it.
<<However, we can all be stupid, even arrogant, about things we're ignorant
of, and if new people aren't allowed to ask questions without others taking
their silly insinuations personally, then what is the point? >>
Luckily there are a few hundred people here, and we don't all have to agree
on how to respond. Different people have different levels of patience in
different areas, and there are a lot of us.
I wanted to control my violent neighbor, at least to the extent that he
didn't wake me up with that. (I didn't mentionthe same kinds of responses no
matter what they are doing or saying, how will they get information on which of
their questions or actions were better?
I like this a lot:
-=-I had to see this first, then from there it wasn't a big jump to deciding
that trusting them was the only thing I could do. I got out of my head and
into my heart where I knew the truth - that they are good, trustworthy and
capable, and that I'm not the all-powerful Oz (but am also good, trustworthy and
capable, sometimes stupid.) We are both whole human beings, nothing left out.-=-
Sandra
<< I think there are a lot of really stupid people in the world. "Sheeple"
I've heard them called >>
That's a cool term! Much warmer and fuzzier than the "pancake" or "fish"
terms my friends and I have used when trying to discuss that difficult concept.
I don't know how much is genetic and how much is conditioning when it comes
to leader/follower aspects of people. The species probably couldn't survive if
everyone came along with equal leadership capabality.
<<there are stupid questions ("do you want me to hit you?" for instance.) >>
That's what my nextdoor neighbor was yelling at his wife the day I blasted
over there, banged on his door (which opened, and I walked in to the middle of
his living room and THEN realized I was holding an infant Holly) and said (with
feeling) "Shut the fuck up." Just as I had left the house he had changed to
"You WANT me to hit you, don't you?"
That was in our old neighborhood, and the police had come several time. I
used to let their little boy hang around at our house just as much as he wanted
to, before they moved, taking our spare tire with them never to return it.
<<However, we can all be stupid, even arrogant, about things we're ignorant
of, and if new people aren't allowed to ask questions without others taking
their silly insinuations personally, then what is the point? >>
Luckily there are a few hundred people here, and we don't all have to agree
on how to respond. Different people have different levels of patience in
different areas, and there are a lot of us.
I wanted to control my violent neighbor, at least to the extent that he
didn't wake me up with that. (I didn't mentionthe same kinds of responses no
matter what they are doing or saying, how will they get information on which of
their questions or actions were better?
I like this a lot:
-=-I had to see this first, then from there it wasn't a big jump to deciding
that trusting them was the only thing I could do. I got out of my head and
into my heart where I knew the truth - that they are good, trustworthy and
capable, and that I'm not the all-powerful Oz (but am also good, trustworthy and
capable, sometimes stupid.) We are both whole human beings, nothing left out.-=-
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/2003 1:58:05 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
desperate measures. But you do realize, I hope, that he COULD have pressed charges
against you for breaking and entering, criminal trespass, or some such thing,
and if he had mentioned the fact that your baby was with you, they probably
would have arrested you for child endangerment or some such thing as well. I've
known people who have had their kids taken for similar things. The authorities
never bother to "look at the context." They would just say you subjected
your baby to potential danger while committing what was technically a crime. And
unless the wife had testified in your behalf, which seems unlikely, they
would never believe you had a good reason to be there.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> That's what my nextdoor neighbor was yelling at his wife the day I blastedI am not going to say you were wrong. Desperate situations call for
> over there, banged on his door (which opened, and I walked in to the middle
> of
> his living room and THEN realized I was holding an infant Holly) and said
> (with
> feeling) "Shut the fuck up." Just as I had left the house he had changed to
>
> "You WANT me to hit you, don't you?"
>
> That was in our old neighborhood, and the police had come several time.
desperate measures. But you do realize, I hope, that he COULD have pressed charges
against you for breaking and entering, criminal trespass, or some such thing,
and if he had mentioned the fact that your baby was with you, they probably
would have arrested you for child endangerment or some such thing as well. I've
known people who have had their kids taken for similar things. The authorities
never bother to "look at the context." They would just say you subjected
your baby to potential danger while committing what was technically a crime. And
unless the wife had testified in your behalf, which seems unlikely, they
would never believe you had a good reason to be there.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**And unless the wife had testified in your behalf, which seems
unlikely, they would never believe you had a good reason to be there.**
Does this have anything to do with unschooling?
How about a little more living and a lot less fretting?
Betsy
unlikely, they would never believe you had a good reason to be there.**
Does this have anything to do with unschooling?
How about a little more living and a lot less fretting?
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/2003 7:05:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
unschooling? Would you rather people just do this sort of thing and learn the hard
way that they can have their kids taken? For crying out loud, I am not in FAVOR
of the child welfare Nazis! It sounds like you are in favor of killing the
bearer of bad news.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
> Does this have anything to do with unschooling?Um, did the entire post I was responding to have anything to do with
>
> How about a little more living and a lot less fretting?
>
> Betsy
unschooling? Would you rather people just do this sort of thing and learn the hard
way that they can have their kids taken? For crying out loud, I am not in FAVOR
of the child welfare Nazis! It sounds like you are in favor of killing the
bearer of bad news.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
Oh goodness, Oom has arrived here. I had been skimming and hadn't
noticed. Also staring at my garden at night and in the morning, and
everytime I pass it, watching the squash and sunflowers and other things
growing so fast you can almost watch their growth. Watching my collie
cross take a bite out of a great big squash leaf and then look at me and
laugh ("See, I didn't get IN the garden, I just bit the leaf!") I've
never seen an animal with such a sense of humor, she laughs and grins
(and others are scared of her cause they aren't used to grinning big
dogs.)
Last night we went to see Spy Kids 3. Not worth the money, in my
opinion, and we even got in free (birthday party--never expected them to
pay but they did). The best part was at the very end, after the credits
when they ran home movies of Juni and Carmen when they were younger.
We're listening to a tape about the donner party, in prep for our trip
to the donner pass. We'll be bringing our own food.
Joylyn
OomYaaqub@... wrote:
noticed. Also staring at my garden at night and in the morning, and
everytime I pass it, watching the squash and sunflowers and other things
growing so fast you can almost watch their growth. Watching my collie
cross take a bite out of a great big squash leaf and then look at me and
laugh ("See, I didn't get IN the garden, I just bit the leaf!") I've
never seen an animal with such a sense of humor, she laughs and grins
(and others are scared of her cause they aren't used to grinning big
dogs.)
Last night we went to see Spy Kids 3. Not worth the money, in my
opinion, and we even got in free (birthday party--never expected them to
pay but they did). The best part was at the very end, after the credits
when they ran home movies of Juni and Carmen when they were younger.
We're listening to a tape about the donner party, in prep for our trip
to the donner pass. We'll be bringing our own food.
Joylyn
OomYaaqub@... wrote:
> In a message dated 8/3/2003 7:05:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> ecsamhill@... writes:
>
> > Does this have anything to do with unschooling?
> >
> > How about a little more living and a lot less fretting?
> >
> > Betsy
>
> Um, did the entire post I was responding to have anything to do with
> unschooling? Would you rather people just do this sort of thing and
> learn the hard
> way that they can have their kids taken? For crying out loud, I am
> not in FAVOR
> of the child welfare Nazis! It sounds like you are in favor of killing
> the
> bearer of bad news.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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Betsy
**Would you rather people just do this sort of thing and learn the hard
way that they can have their kids taken? For crying out loud, I am not
in FAVOR
of the child welfare Nazis! It sounds like you are in favor of killing the
bearer of bad news.**
The sky is not falling because of something that was done ten years ago.
Where the heck do you get "killing" from?
I'd appreciate it if you took some deep breaths and tried to stay calmer.
Betsy
way that they can have their kids taken? For crying out loud, I am not
in FAVOR
of the child welfare Nazis! It sounds like you are in favor of killing the
bearer of bad news.**
The sky is not falling because of something that was done ten years ago.
Where the heck do you get "killing" from?
I'd appreciate it if you took some deep breaths and tried to stay calmer.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:20:58 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
OomYaaqub@... writes:
Read more, post less, please.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
OomYaaqub@... writes:
> For crying out loud, I am not in FAVOROomYaaqub, if you can't be nicer you'll be dropped from the list.
> of the child welfare Nazis! It sounds like you are in favor of killing the
> bearer of bad news.
>
>
Read more, post less, please.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:33:24 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
joylyn@... writes:
(Well they SHOULD have listened to a tape...
But they brought their own food.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn@... writes:
> We're listening to a tape about the donner party, in prep for our tripSO DID THE DONNER PARTY!!!
> to the donner pass. We'll be bringing our own food.
>
>
(Well they SHOULD have listened to a tape...
But they brought their own food.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:25:10 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
Joylyn - are you staying here Sunday night? Seeing Peter Pan in Davis?
Rain is Liza the first weekend (the 15th) and Tootles Lost Boy the
second. She got to practice flying today, because Liza flies.... it was
very cool. *I* want to fly! But she has a bruise from the harness, which
is not so great.
It was interesting watching as the kids learned how to move their bodies
so they'd go the right way in the air. If you leaned back a little, it
was easier to land on your feet, and if you led with an arm when flying
sideways you could sort of steer with that arm.
It was easy to see which kids had had dance training, too - they seemed
to naturally hold themselves more gracefully in the air, and to already
know how to land toes first and bend their knees a bit.
Dar
> In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:33:24 PM Mountain Daylight Time,trip
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> > We're listening to a tape about the donner party, in prep for our
> > to the donner pass. We'll be bringing our own food.BWAH! That cracked me up....
> >
> >
>
> SO DID THE DONNER PARTY!!!
Joylyn - are you staying here Sunday night? Seeing Peter Pan in Davis?
Rain is Liza the first weekend (the 15th) and Tootles Lost Boy the
second. She got to practice flying today, because Liza flies.... it was
very cool. *I* want to fly! But she has a bruise from the harness, which
is not so great.
It was interesting watching as the kids learned how to move their bodies
so they'd go the right way in the air. If you leaned back a little, it
was easier to land on your feet, and if you led with an arm when flying
sideways you could sort of steer with that arm.
It was easy to see which kids had had dance training, too - they seemed
to naturally hold themselves more gracefully in the air, and to already
know how to land toes first and bend their knees a bit.
Dar
Joylyn
freeform@... wrote:
;-)
she is a racist pig. It confirmed that I will NOT be staying with her
and that a very limited meeting is in my best interest (Just how many
times can this dear woman say Negro in a sentence? As in, "the school
(where she taught, which is near where I am teaching) had a wonderful
music and athletic program but of course it would, as that was where all
the Negros went." and "each year the Negro students would nearly win
the district championships against the white schools, but then they'd
get into a fight and be disqualified because they couldn't control their
temper." Well, yeah, with teachers like you teaching them, those poor
Negros. I wanted to scream! But I simply changed the subject. I'm
thinking a short lunch with this grandmother and my Negro children will
be all I can handle.
My dad says that I should feel fortunate, that Negro probably wasn't the
word she was thinking. So sad.
We need to invite Elizabeth as well, as she'll be with us, I think.
Then Monday morning we'll head on over to the Donner Pass, maybe
bringing along my grandmother for provisions--oh wait, she'd be too
tough. We'll find someone else.
I'm confused about where Davis is? The map says it's due west of
Sacramento? What is the small town where you live? Guess we need to
take this off list.
Joylyn
>Personally, I'm fed up with the donner jokes.
> On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:25:10 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
> > In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:33:24 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> > joylyn@... writes:
> >
> > > We're listening to a tape about the donner party, in prep for our
> trip
> > > to the donner pass. We'll be bringing our own food.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > SO DID THE DONNER PARTY!!!
>
> BWAH! That cracked me up....
;-)
>Yes. I just spoke with my lovely grandmother who has absolutely NO idea
>
> Joylyn - are you staying here Sunday night?
she is a racist pig. It confirmed that I will NOT be staying with her
and that a very limited meeting is in my best interest (Just how many
times can this dear woman say Negro in a sentence? As in, "the school
(where she taught, which is near where I am teaching) had a wonderful
music and athletic program but of course it would, as that was where all
the Negros went." and "each year the Negro students would nearly win
the district championships against the white schools, but then they'd
get into a fight and be disqualified because they couldn't control their
temper." Well, yeah, with teachers like you teaching them, those poor
Negros. I wanted to scream! But I simply changed the subject. I'm
thinking a short lunch with this grandmother and my Negro children will
be all I can handle.
My dad says that I should feel fortunate, that Negro probably wasn't the
word she was thinking. So sad.
> Seeing Peter Pan in Davis?I would love to attend, as would my girls. What time on Sunday night?
> Rain is Liza the first weekend (the 15th) and Tootles Lost Boy the
> second. She got to practice flying today, because Liza flies.... it was
> very cool. *I* want to fly! But she has a bruise from the harness, which
> is not so great.
We need to invite Elizabeth as well, as she'll be with us, I think.
Then Monday morning we'll head on over to the Donner Pass, maybe
bringing along my grandmother for provisions--oh wait, she'd be too
tough. We'll find someone else.
> It was interesting watching as the kids learned how to move their bodiesI can't wait to see the show? The cost?
> so they'd go the right way in the air. If you leaned back a little, it
> was easier to land on your feet, and if you led with an arm when flying
> sideways you could sort of steer with that arm.
>
> It was easy to see which kids had had dance training, too - they seemed
> to naturally hold themselves more gracefully in the air, and to already
> know how to land toes first and bend their knees a bit.
I'm confused about where Davis is? The map says it's due west of
Sacramento? What is the small town where you live? Guess we need to
take this off list.
Joylyn
Joylyn
SandraDodd@... wrote:
to transport meat in those days. Stays fresher.
which is a reading program, so every so often a student interrupts and
helps us figure out the difficult word or summarizes what has happened
or some odd thing, very annoying for Lexie and I, but what can you say
when you borrow it from a public school!
Joylyn
> In a message dated 8/3/2003 5:33:24 PM Mountain Daylight Time,LOL They say that on the hoof (or was it the foot) was the easiest way
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> > We're listening to a tape about the donner party, in prep for our trip
> > to the donner pass. We'll be bringing our own food.
> >
> >
>
> SO DID THE DONNER PARTY!!!
to transport meat in those days. Stays fresher.
>No kidding. The tape is very interesting, but it's a Reading 180 tape,
>
> (Well they SHOULD have listened to a tape...
which is a reading program, so every so often a student interrupts and
helps us figure out the difficult word or summarizes what has happened
or some odd thing, very annoying for Lexie and I, but what can you say
when you borrow it from a public school!
>I'm thinking vegetarian may be the way to go those two nights!
> But they brought their own food.)
Joylyn
>
>
>
> Sandra
Nancy Wooton
on 8/3/03 9:49 PM, Joylyn at joylyn@... wrote:
....Lord, bless this hand and those who serve it...
<g,d,r!>
Nancy
>>>> We're listening to a tape about the donner party, in prep for ourI'm sure they gave thanks for their meal...
>> trip
>>>> to the donner pass. We'll be bringing our own food.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> SO DID THE DONNER PARTY!!!
>>
>> BWAH! That cracked me up....
>
> Personally, I'm fed up with the donner jokes.
....Lord, bless this hand and those who serve it...
<g,d,r!>
Nancy
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/3/2003 7:27:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:
times, when news traveled by someone running from town to town. It means
getting angry at the person who informs you of something, instead of the situation
itself.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ecsamhill@... writes:
> Where the heck do you get "killing" from?"Killing the bearer of bad news" is an expression that goes back to ancient
times, when news traveled by someone running from town to town. It means
getting angry at the person who informs you of something, instead of the situation
itself.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joylyn
I love this thread.
It's similar to the one we had on HSC about this very thing. Except my
friend, who was going with me (and is going to the conference but not to
donner pass) and who is a strict vegetarian, had NO clue about what we
were talking. So we had a bit of fun. :-)
Joylyn
ps, I guess the donner party did bite that hand that fed them.
Nancy Wooton wrote:
It's similar to the one we had on HSC about this very thing. Except my
friend, who was going with me (and is going to the conference but not to
donner pass) and who is a strict vegetarian, had NO clue about what we
were talking. So we had a bit of fun. :-)
Joylyn
ps, I guess the donner party did bite that hand that fed them.
Nancy Wooton wrote:
> on 8/3/03 9:49 PM, Joylyn at joylyn@... wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> >>>> We're listening to a tape about the donner party, in prep for our
> >> trip
> >>>> to the donner pass. We'll be bringing our own food.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> SO DID THE DONNER PARTY!!!
> >>
> >> BWAH! That cracked me up....
> >
> > Personally, I'm fed up with the donner jokes.
>
> I'm sure they gave thanks for their meal...
>
> ....Lord, bless this hand and those who serve it...
>
> <g,d,r!>
> Nancy
>
>
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