How to do it?
baref00tmamax3
This may semm like just a plain silly question, but how do you keep
from assuming a "teacher role"? This may just be my problem , but it
seems that when ever my kids start asking questions and getting
interested in something I start organizing a formal lesson without
even realizing it. Sometimes they enjoy the info, but at other times
it just turns them off to the whole thing. I find that if I am using
a planned curriculum sometimes they seem to really enjoy the
organization. It'll work great for a while, then they will balk at
doing any of it. It's hard for me to just let it go and not push them
to just do it. When they don't have the planned material they are
fine for a few weeks, then they get grumpy and want the "school time'
back. Any ideas on this?-Kelly
from assuming a "teacher role"? This may just be my problem , but it
seems that when ever my kids start asking questions and getting
interested in something I start organizing a formal lesson without
even realizing it. Sometimes they enjoy the info, but at other times
it just turns them off to the whole thing. I find that if I am using
a planned curriculum sometimes they seem to really enjoy the
organization. It'll work great for a while, then they will balk at
doing any of it. It's hard for me to just let it go and not push them
to just do it. When they don't have the planned material they are
fine for a few weeks, then they get grumpy and want the "school time'
back. Any ideas on this?-Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/18/03 1:55:21 PM, baref00tmamax3@... writes:
<< This may semm like just a plain silly question, but how do you keep
from assuming a "teacher role"? >>
Constantly and with dedication.
<< This may just be my problem , but it
seems that when ever my kids start asking questions and getting
interested in something I start organizing a formal lesson without
even realizing it.>>
When they asked where babies come from did you draw pictures and haul out
books, or just say "from inside their mommies"? If the former, you'll have to
work extra hard! If the latter, remember those short answers when they ask
where the Mediterranean is. Either describe it (if they'll get it, if they have
some form of reference or would even understand "between Africa and Europe" or
point to it on a map, but don't go into the history of sailing ships and the
routes of the apostles and the geology of all inland seas in the Middle East
and current theories on the Great Flood.
<<Sometimes they enjoy the info, but at other times
it just turns them off to the whole thing.>>
AHA! How much would you tell an adult?
Can you learn to read their cues? And teensy cues of posture or eye
movement?
IF they want more information, they'll ask another question. If they are
happy with your VERY short response, they will LOOK happy. Practice looking at
them instead of at your teaching materials, or at the chalkboard in your mind.
<<I find that if I am using
a planned curriculum sometimes they seem to really enjoy the
organization. It'll work great for a while, then they will balk at
doing any of it. It's hard for me to just let it go and not push them
to just do it.>>
This isn't the place to get support for that, but there ARE places you can go
to get support.
You harm more than just their interest in the material at hand when you push
them.
<< When they don't have the planned material they are
fine for a few weeks, then they get grumpy and want the "school time'
back. Any ideas on this?->>
Yes--Make their lives fascinating and interesting and busy and rick, so that
they don't want "school time" back, and so that you see natural learning
working in them and in you.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Please read that, and please don't think of unschooling as just the weeks you
don't "do school." It needs to be more than a lack of school-style "life."
Sandra
<< This may semm like just a plain silly question, but how do you keep
from assuming a "teacher role"? >>
Constantly and with dedication.
<< This may just be my problem , but it
seems that when ever my kids start asking questions and getting
interested in something I start organizing a formal lesson without
even realizing it.>>
When they asked where babies come from did you draw pictures and haul out
books, or just say "from inside their mommies"? If the former, you'll have to
work extra hard! If the latter, remember those short answers when they ask
where the Mediterranean is. Either describe it (if they'll get it, if they have
some form of reference or would even understand "between Africa and Europe" or
point to it on a map, but don't go into the history of sailing ships and the
routes of the apostles and the geology of all inland seas in the Middle East
and current theories on the Great Flood.
<<Sometimes they enjoy the info, but at other times
it just turns them off to the whole thing.>>
AHA! How much would you tell an adult?
Can you learn to read their cues? And teensy cues of posture or eye
movement?
IF they want more information, they'll ask another question. If they are
happy with your VERY short response, they will LOOK happy. Practice looking at
them instead of at your teaching materials, or at the chalkboard in your mind.
<<I find that if I am using
a planned curriculum sometimes they seem to really enjoy the
organization. It'll work great for a while, then they will balk at
doing any of it. It's hard for me to just let it go and not push them
to just do it.>>
This isn't the place to get support for that, but there ARE places you can go
to get support.
You harm more than just their interest in the material at hand when you push
them.
<< When they don't have the planned material they are
fine for a few weeks, then they get grumpy and want the "school time'
back. Any ideas on this?->>
Yes--Make their lives fascinating and interesting and busy and rick, so that
they don't want "school time" back, and so that you see natural learning
working in them and in you.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Please read that, and please don't think of unschooling as just the weeks you
don't "do school." It needs to be more than a lack of school-style "life."
Sandra
Kerrin or Ralph Taylor
Hi Kelly,
It must have something to do with personality, and of course, how we've internalized our own school experience. It is also a big hurdle to overcome the societal belief that children must be "taught" in order to learn anything.
I don't relate to your experience myself. In fact, on the odd occasion that my kids want some structured sort of teaching, I find it quite hard and unnatural to get into that mode.
My husband on the other hand is more like you, he just can't seem to help going into teaching mode. It's not usually in a lesson kind of way, more of a lecture rather than a simple answer to a question. The kids often "turn off" as you said. Another thing he does is get out the dictionary, atlas etc. at the drop of a hat. This isn't a bad thing, but the way he does it turns the kids off too. It's sort of like...you need to know this, now. I think he often misses natural teaching moments with this approach.
What I do is listen to the kids when they ask about something, and I can usually guess what sort of answer they're after. It might be a desire for in-depth knowledge, or it might just be a very quick and brief answer that they want. I might suggest various resources to help and I will often get these and look to satisfy my own curiosity. This may or may not lead to a discussion of the topic. If they do want to explore the topic at length then I will help them find further info, of the type THEY want. This might be a video, a computer game, a trip somewhere, a visit to someone in the know...It is hardly ever something promoted as an "educational resource" such as workbooks, textbooks etc. We find these to often be boring and limited.
I don't know how long you have been unschooling, but I know it took me a couple of years to really relax, and feel confident in letting the kids be in charge of their own education (lives). Even though it was always easiest for me to let the kids go their own way, I felt varying levels of guilt about it during those first years. If you make a conscious effort to let go, I think you will find it easier as time goes by.
All the best,
Kerrin.
seems that when ever my kids start asking questions and getting
interested in something I start organizing a formal lesson without
even realizing it. Sometimes they enjoy the info, but at other times
it just turns them off to the whole thing. I find that if I am using
a planned curriculum sometimes they seem to really enjoy the
organization. It'll work great for a while, then they will balk at
doing any of it. It's hard for me to just let it go and not push them
to just do it. When they don't have the planned material they are
fine for a few weeks, then they get grumpy and want the "school time'
back. Any ideas on this?-Kelly
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It must have something to do with personality, and of course, how we've internalized our own school experience. It is also a big hurdle to overcome the societal belief that children must be "taught" in order to learn anything.
I don't relate to your experience myself. In fact, on the odd occasion that my kids want some structured sort of teaching, I find it quite hard and unnatural to get into that mode.
My husband on the other hand is more like you, he just can't seem to help going into teaching mode. It's not usually in a lesson kind of way, more of a lecture rather than a simple answer to a question. The kids often "turn off" as you said. Another thing he does is get out the dictionary, atlas etc. at the drop of a hat. This isn't a bad thing, but the way he does it turns the kids off too. It's sort of like...you need to know this, now. I think he often misses natural teaching moments with this approach.
What I do is listen to the kids when they ask about something, and I can usually guess what sort of answer they're after. It might be a desire for in-depth knowledge, or it might just be a very quick and brief answer that they want. I might suggest various resources to help and I will often get these and look to satisfy my own curiosity. This may or may not lead to a discussion of the topic. If they do want to explore the topic at length then I will help them find further info, of the type THEY want. This might be a video, a computer game, a trip somewhere, a visit to someone in the know...It is hardly ever something promoted as an "educational resource" such as workbooks, textbooks etc. We find these to often be boring and limited.
I don't know how long you have been unschooling, but I know it took me a couple of years to really relax, and feel confident in letting the kids be in charge of their own education (lives). Even though it was always easiest for me to let the kids go their own way, I felt varying levels of guilt about it during those first years. If you make a conscious effort to let go, I think you will find it easier as time goes by.
All the best,
Kerrin.
>>>>>This may semm like just a plain silly question, but how do you keepfrom assuming a "teacher role"? This may just be my problem , but it
seems that when ever my kids start asking questions and getting
interested in something I start organizing a formal lesson without
even realizing it. Sometimes they enjoy the info, but at other times
it just turns them off to the whole thing. I find that if I am using
a planned curriculum sometimes they seem to really enjoy the
organization. It'll work great for a while, then they will balk at
doing any of it. It's hard for me to just let it go and not push them
to just do it. When they don't have the planned material they are
fine for a few weeks, then they get grumpy and want the "school time'
back. Any ideas on this?-Kelly
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/18/03 5:26:22 PM, kerrin@... writes:
<< The kids often "turn off" as you said. Another thing he does is get out
the dictionary, atlas etc. at the drop of a hat. This isn't a bad thing, but the
way he does it turns the kids off too. It's sort of like...you need to know
this, now. >>
One of the things that helped me the most was to hear my tone of voice, and
to consciously compare it to what I think I would say if an adult friend,
visiting my house, were to ask the same question.
If an adult were to say "What's five times twelve?" because he was doing
something and actually needed to know, I'd just tell him "60" because that's an
easy one (a measuring tape for anyone who sews) and it would be no big deal. I
would NEVER say to a 30 year old "You can figure that out. First do the
tens..."
And once I consciously started treating my five year old like a person
instead of "like a kid" it was easier to do it with the other two and to notice it
and steer things better when other adults treated them that "googy-googy" way.
Sandra
<< The kids often "turn off" as you said. Another thing he does is get out
the dictionary, atlas etc. at the drop of a hat. This isn't a bad thing, but the
way he does it turns the kids off too. It's sort of like...you need to know
this, now. >>
One of the things that helped me the most was to hear my tone of voice, and
to consciously compare it to what I think I would say if an adult friend,
visiting my house, were to ask the same question.
If an adult were to say "What's five times twelve?" because he was doing
something and actually needed to know, I'd just tell him "60" because that's an
easy one (a measuring tape for anyone who sews) and it would be no big deal. I
would NEVER say to a 30 year old "You can figure that out. First do the
tens..."
And once I consciously started treating my five year old like a person
instead of "like a kid" it was easier to do it with the other two and to notice it
and steer things better when other adults treated them that "googy-googy" way.
Sandra
Bill and Diane
One thing I do is try to answer the question in the context of the
moment. This relates to the old joke where the kid asks where he came
from and the mom gives a 15 minute sex-ed lecture and he replies, "Oh,
Johnny's from New York."
I spend a lot of time asking, "What do you mean?" "In what way?" and
questions like that.
Another thing is that what Sandra said is SO important--in asking how to
help, ask yourself "How would I help a *person* do this?" instead of
"How would I help a *kid* do this?" because we're culturally taught
these two questions have very different answers and it works better to
treat our kids like *people*.
:-) Diane
moment. This relates to the old joke where the kid asks where he came
from and the mom gives a 15 minute sex-ed lecture and he replies, "Oh,
Johnny's from New York."
I spend a lot of time asking, "What do you mean?" "In what way?" and
questions like that.
Another thing is that what Sandra said is SO important--in asking how to
help, ask yourself "How would I help a *person* do this?" instead of
"How would I help a *kid* do this?" because we're culturally taught
these two questions have very different answers and it works better to
treat our kids like *people*.
:-) Diane
> >>>>>This may semm like just a plain silly question, but how do you keep
> from assuming a "teacher role"?
>
Kelli Traaseth
**but how do you keep
I would start going into one of those teacher modes. I remember when we
first started homeschooling. It was around Mardi Gras time and I thought,
oh, what a fun time we can have! I looked up Mardi Gras and Fat Tuesday on
the computer. Sat them down in the couch and started reading to them about
it, "here's some pictures of the carnival you guys!" Oh I remember it so
well! <g> Then we went and made masks.
Just a few days later I was talking to someone about our homeschooling and
mentioned that we had learned about Mardi Gras. I turned to the kids and
said, "hey, remember about Mardi Gras?" <silence>
"Remember what we just learned, ya know, Fat Tuesday and all that?"
<silence, again>
Finally,, "remember the masks we made?" My kids, "do you want to see
the masks we made!"
It hit me like a ton of bricks! They didn't learn about Mardi Gras! I did!
I was the one that was excited. They weren't.
They were glazed over!
Kelli~
> > from assuming a "teacher role"? **Also, keeping in mind the glazed over look that my children would get when
I would start going into one of those teacher modes. I remember when we
first started homeschooling. It was around Mardi Gras time and I thought,
oh, what a fun time we can have! I looked up Mardi Gras and Fat Tuesday on
the computer. Sat them down in the couch and started reading to them about
it, "here's some pictures of the carnival you guys!" Oh I remember it so
well! <g> Then we went and made masks.
Just a few days later I was talking to someone about our homeschooling and
mentioned that we had learned about Mardi Gras. I turned to the kids and
said, "hey, remember about Mardi Gras?" <silence>
"Remember what we just learned, ya know, Fat Tuesday and all that?"
<silence, again>
Finally,, "remember the masks we made?" My kids, "do you want to see
the masks we made!"
It hit me like a ton of bricks! They didn't learn about Mardi Gras! I did!
I was the one that was excited. They weren't.
They were glazed over!
Kelli~
Peggy
sandra wrote:
tone with children. A perfect example, for those of you whom quilt, is
Eleanor Burns, the "Quilt in a Day" specialist with a popular program on
PBS. She has the most incredibly annoying sing/song voice condescending
'teaching' voice. Great engineer though, she's the one who discovered
the strip quilting technique that revolutionize the modern quilting
process, after finding long strips of discarded fabric in a dumpster
from the Burlington Coat factory.
Getting interested in a subject seems to lead to requests for more
details around our house. More than one book with the same theme or
subject, a tie in video or physical experience, following rather than
leading...
current favorites:
balance balls -- using them, making up games with them, seeing what
other people do with them
greek/roman stuff - why did they have atriums in the middle of some of
their houses? Why don't we? How come we can't tear up our house and put
an atrium in the middle? ;) How did they create designs in mosaics.
Breaking up plates to create our own mosaics. Heated floors and
hypocausts and aqueducts and what happened to roman houses in Britain
after the legions left and the local governments took over.
Hayao Miyazaki animated movies
My Little Ponies -- How much they cost. Which ones are rare.
Refurbishment and enhancement. ;) What is ebay selling and for how much?
How come the big stores on Ebay are paying for advertising to feature My
Little Ponies in prominent ads. How much does a seller have to get to
cover selling and listing fees and advertising? Feedback is a popular
topic around here and has led to some really good discussions on
quality, reputation, and ethics.
<< This may semm like just a plain silly question, but how do you keep
from assuming a "teacher role"? >>
KNOW. ;) It takes practice.
Peggy
This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown
aside with great force.
-- Dorothy Parker
> And once I consciously started treating my five year old like a personLOL. What a great way to put it. I hate it when I hear adults using that
> instead of "like a kid" it was easier to do it with the other two and to notice it
> and steer things better when other adults treated them that "googy-googy" way.
>
>
> Sandra
>
>
tone with children. A perfect example, for those of you whom quilt, is
Eleanor Burns, the "Quilt in a Day" specialist with a popular program on
PBS. She has the most incredibly annoying sing/song voice condescending
'teaching' voice. Great engineer though, she's the one who discovered
the strip quilting technique that revolutionize the modern quilting
process, after finding long strips of discarded fabric in a dumpster
from the Burlington Coat factory.
Getting interested in a subject seems to lead to requests for more
details around our house. More than one book with the same theme or
subject, a tie in video or physical experience, following rather than
leading...
current favorites:
balance balls -- using them, making up games with them, seeing what
other people do with them
greek/roman stuff - why did they have atriums in the middle of some of
their houses? Why don't we? How come we can't tear up our house and put
an atrium in the middle? ;) How did they create designs in mosaics.
Breaking up plates to create our own mosaics. Heated floors and
hypocausts and aqueducts and what happened to roman houses in Britain
after the legions left and the local governments took over.
Hayao Miyazaki animated movies
My Little Ponies -- How much they cost. Which ones are rare.
Refurbishment and enhancement. ;) What is ebay selling and for how much?
How come the big stores on Ebay are paying for advertising to feature My
Little Ponies in prominent ads. How much does a seller have to get to
cover selling and listing fees and advertising? Feedback is a popular
topic around here and has led to some really good discussions on
quality, reputation, and ethics.
<< This may semm like just a plain silly question, but how do you keep
from assuming a "teacher role"? >>
>Constantly and with dedication.Love this! Yes. It is hard to back down and stop from telling them ALL I
KNOW. ;) It takes practice.
Peggy
This is not a novel to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown
aside with great force.
-- Dorothy Parker
baref00tmamax3
--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
adult already knew how to calculate that for themselves,but just
couldn't be bothered at the time to do the math. For a child if they
had not yet been shown calculation they might not know how to get
there.
-Kelly
>doing
> If an adult were to say "What's five times twelve?" because he was
> something and actually needed to know, I'd just tell him "60"because that's an
> easy one (a measuring tape for anyone who sews) and it would be nobig deal. I
> would NEVER say to a 30 year old "You can figure that out. Firstdo the
> tens..."I suppose the difference in this is that I would be assuming that the
adult already knew how to calculate that for themselves,but just
couldn't be bothered at the time to do the math. For a child if they
had not yet been shown calculation they might not know how to get
there.
-Kelly
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/2003 8:35:40 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
baref00tmamax3@... writes:
question than "what is..."
The answer to "where is Denmark?" is not "Look it up."
The answer to "How do you spell "either" is definitely not "sound it out."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
baref00tmamax3@... writes:
> I suppose the difference in this is that I would be assuming that theSure, but if a child asks you how to figure out something that's a different
> adult already knew how to calculate that for themselves,but just
> couldn't be bothered at the time to do the math. For a child if they
> had not yet been shown calculation they might not know how to get
> there.
>
question than "what is..."
The answer to "where is Denmark?" is not "Look it up."
The answer to "How do you spell "either" is definitely not "sound it out."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/19/2003 10:35:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
baref00tmamax3@... writes:
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
baref00tmamax3@... writes:
> I suppose the difference in this is that I would be assuming that the"Math Outloud" Figure it out---out loud. Let the child hear you "figurin'".
> adult already knew how to calculate that for themselves,but just
> couldn't be bothered at the time to do the math. For a child if they
> had not yet been shown calculation they might not know how to get
> there.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Tiger
OK. i'm really really new here. and i'm just exploring ideas, because my son is only 2-1/2. BUT.
please be patient with me for asking questions; i am still *very very* much in "school" mode and want to learn how to get out, and if it works, etc. i know public school does not work but i wonder how "no" curriculum works!
pamela
as above, so below.....blessed be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> I suppose the difference in this is that I would be assuming that theBUT. what if they never want to figure it out for themselves 'cause it's easier to get the answer from someone? how will they ever learn how to do it for themselves then? i had this problem with my stepdaughter. she never wanted to find out anything for herself because she had always been given the answers by lazy parents who didn't want to *help* her. so she got lazy and didn't want to find out for herself. it was "too hard". she was 11-12-13 years old and had no idea where *any* countries were and had no idea how to look on a globe to find them.
> adult already knew how to calculate that for themselves,but just
> couldn't be bothered at the time to do the math. For a child if they
> had not yet been shown calculation they might not know how to get
> there.
>
>Sure, but if a child asks you how to figure out something that's a different
>question than "what is..."
>The answer to "where is Denmark?" is not "Look it up."
>The answer to "How do you spell "either" is definitely not "sound it out."
please be patient with me for asking questions; i am still *very very* much in "school" mode and want to learn how to get out, and if it works, etc. i know public school does not work but i wonder how "no" curriculum works!
pamela
as above, so below.....blessed be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/20/2003 1:51:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
mercyn@... writes:
do know that this is a poor example to use against unschooling. The child
was in school, right? There were a whole lot of other factors involved besides
her parents giving her answers to her questions. (At least they got that
right.)
But the short answer to your question is that if someone never learns
something like what's 12 x 5, it may just be because they never needed to know it.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mercyn@... writes:
> i had this problem with my stepdaughter. she never wanted to find outMaybe she's lazy cuz it's genetic? Lazy parents, lazy children? I dunno. I
> anything for herself because she had always been given the answers by lazy parents
> who didn't want to *help* her. so she got lazy and didn't want to find out
> for herself.
do know that this is a poor example to use against unschooling. The child
was in school, right? There were a whole lot of other factors involved besides
her parents giving her answers to her questions. (At least they got that
right.)
But the short answer to your question is that if someone never learns
something like what's 12 x 5, it may just be because they never needed to know it.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bill and Diane
>Unschooling seems to work best with a "do as I do" attitude. Lazy
>
>BUT. what if they never want to figure it out for themselves 'cause it's easier to get the answer from someone? how will they ever learn how to do it for themselves then? i had this problem with my stepdaughter. she never wanted to find out anything for herself because she had always been given the answers by lazy parents who didn't want to *help* her. so she got lazy and didn't want to find out for herself. it was "too hard". she was 11-12-13 years old and had no idea where *any* countries were and had no idea how to look on a globe to find them.
>please be patient with me for asking questions; i am still *very very* much in "school" mode and want to learn how to get out, and if it works, etc. i know public school does not work but i wonder how "no" curriculum works!
>pamela
>
parents who want to have the kid not lazy are better off sending them to
school, where they can see *some* adults modeling interest and activity.
Many unschooling parents have interests they pursue, rather than sitting
around waiting for the kid to be the first in the family to "do something."
With an older schooled child, it's important to plan to provide several
months of interesting, involved living before the child can really be
expected to return to that "preschool" level of interest in the world
and its riches.
A rule of thumb is to plan on one month for every year the child was in
school. So with a 13 year old child who was in school since age 3 (not
uncommon), there would be an average of about 10 months of deschooling
before you could expect to start seeing the results that are associated
with unschooling--interest in a variety of things, an inclination to
follow those interests, etc.
Laziness is more likely a personality trait rather than a product of an
educational institution anyway.
:-) Diane
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/20/2003 7:03:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
cen46624@... writes:
is out of the schools system if YOU, the parent, are still questioning and
pushing and acting like a school parent.
So, begin counting AFTER you quit nagging!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
cen46624@... writes:
> A rule of thumb is to plan on one month for every year the child was inAFTER the nagging stops. You can't count ten months from the time the child
> school. So with a 13 year old child who was in school since age 3 (not
> uncommon), there would be an average of about 10 months of deschooling
> before you could expect to start seeing the results that are associated
> with unschooling--interest in a variety of things, an inclination to
> follow those interests, etc.
>
is out of the schools system if YOU, the parent, are still questioning and
pushing and acting like a school parent.
So, begin counting AFTER you quit nagging!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Barb Eaton
The book "The Myth of Laziness" by Mel Levine was pretty good. I also
read "The Myth of Maturity" by T.E.Apter at the same time. They both are on
the schooly side but I took what I wanted and left the rest.
I've got past the school teacher push by buying stuff, reading it myself
and setting it on the shelf. I've never been one for much scope and sequence
stuff anyways. Only fun stuff. ;-) I admit I'm a bookaholic. I've finally,
in the last year or two, got past this. I've gotten some pretty cool stuff
too. Totally enjoyed myself. Some I'll not part with and a bunch to resell
on ebay. I'm a real bargain shopper. I guess I've de-booked myself through
saturation. LOL! Na can't be! On the lighter side.
Barb E
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live, nor the life according to the purpose
of the educator who thinks he knows what is best. All of this interference
and guidance on the part of adults only produces a generation of robots."
A S Neill
on 7/20/03 6:15 PM, Bill and Diane at cen46624@... wrote:
read "The Myth of Maturity" by T.E.Apter at the same time. They both are on
the schooly side but I took what I wanted and left the rest.
I've got past the school teacher push by buying stuff, reading it myself
and setting it on the shelf. I've never been one for much scope and sequence
stuff anyways. Only fun stuff. ;-) I admit I'm a bookaholic. I've finally,
in the last year or two, got past this. I've gotten some pretty cool stuff
too. Totally enjoyed myself. Some I'll not part with and a bunch to resell
on ebay. I'm a real bargain shopper. I guess I've de-booked myself through
saturation. LOL! Na can't be! On the lighter side.
Barb E
"The function of the child is to live his own life - not the life that his
anxious parents think he should live, nor the life according to the purpose
of the educator who thinks he knows what is best. All of this interference
and guidance on the part of adults only produces a generation of robots."
A S Neill
on 7/20/03 6:15 PM, Bill and Diane at cen46624@... wrote:
>
> Laziness is more likely a personality trait rather than a product of an
> educational institution anyway.
>
> :-) Diane
Pamela Sorooshian
This is SUCh a good question to think about.
Those who have unschooled from the beginning NEVER have this problem.
Why not?
I believe there is an evolution-based built-in mandate that creates an
internal "urge" in humans to learn and develop and that it is
especially strong in young humans to emulate and learn from older
humans.
Kids that don't have that always have had it crushed somehow or another.
I really don't think it is because parents helped "too much" that kids
get "lazy in learning." I mean - I walked into our living room the
other day and my 15 and 12 year olds were busy with a globe, quizzing
each other about what country various cities were in, around the world.
Laughing, learning - sisterly bonding, practicing taking turns,
practicing read the globe, whatever they were doing, it had absolutely
nothing to do with me, EXCEPT ....
when we watched tv over the years, there was this globe sitting in the
living room and when somebody wondered aloud where a city was, I'd grab
the globe and look for the city and announce the country and maybe
offer a teensy bit of information about where it was and often they'd
want me to pass the globe around so they could see it.
I never ever said, "If you want to know then you need to get out the
globe and look it up." I just did it. Never even gave a thought to
expecting them to do it themselves.
-pam
Those who have unschooled from the beginning NEVER have this problem.
Why not?
I believe there is an evolution-based built-in mandate that creates an
internal "urge" in humans to learn and develop and that it is
especially strong in young humans to emulate and learn from older
humans.
Kids that don't have that always have had it crushed somehow or another.
I really don't think it is because parents helped "too much" that kids
get "lazy in learning." I mean - I walked into our living room the
other day and my 15 and 12 year olds were busy with a globe, quizzing
each other about what country various cities were in, around the world.
Laughing, learning - sisterly bonding, practicing taking turns,
practicing read the globe, whatever they were doing, it had absolutely
nothing to do with me, EXCEPT ....
when we watched tv over the years, there was this globe sitting in the
living room and when somebody wondered aloud where a city was, I'd grab
the globe and look for the city and announce the country and maybe
offer a teensy bit of information about where it was and often they'd
want me to pass the globe around so they could see it.
I never ever said, "If you want to know then you need to get out the
globe and look it up." I just did it. Never even gave a thought to
expecting them to do it themselves.
-pam
On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 11:34 AM, Pamela Tiger wrote:
> BUT. what if they never want to figure it out for themselves 'cause
> it's easier to get the answer from someone? how will they ever learn
> how to do it for themselves then? i had this problem with my
> stepdaughter. she never wanted to find out anything for herself
> because
Pamela Tiger
>I do know that this is a poor example to use against unschooling. The childwas in school, right?
well-- this was a weird situation. she entered public school at age 10. she was homeschooled up until then. her mom has a degree in early elementary education and the kid entered public school a year *behind*, and couldn't keep up (i've heard homeschoolers are usually ahead of their public school peers). suffice it to say, her family life was WAY dysfunctional. i'm in the process of divorcing her dad right now cause i finally got a clue as to *just* how dysfunctional, and almost got lost in the maelstrom myself (whew-- my son and i escaped). it's a long story, but she's being brought up to think that looks and being popular are the only things that matter. she ain't the brightest bulb on the tree, but she has this weird mix of mature (street) and very, very, VERY immature. she can be very compassionate. sometimes. but book smart? no one could accuse her of that.
>Many unschooling parents have interests they pursueoh, goodness....maybe this isn't for me, then. i have tons of interests.....but VERY lousy follow-through. very. "someday" is my mantra. but then, right now, as a single parent of a toddler i am juggling the daily stuff. i keep thinking maybe when he's older and has less needs (you know which ones i mean, like diapers, dressing, brushing teeth, basic stuff that he will be able to do himself) then we can persue more fun stuff. i hope. but it seems like, again, my mantra is "someday". i don't know how to make "someday" be "now" without sacrificing things like, oh, making dinner?
>Live & Learn Unschooling Conference in Columbia, SC August 22-24i'm in Asheville, NC....if you want to stop here!
pamela
as above, so below.....blessed be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/20/03 12:51:35 PM, mercyn@... writes:
<< BUT. what if they never want to figure it out for themselves 'cause it's
easier to get the answer from someone? how will they ever learn how to do it
for themselves then? >>
I don't want to put energy into answering hypothetical questions like this,
honestly.
You have a baby, and there are people here with lots of older and some grown
kids who are NOT lacking the ability to do things for themselves at all,
whatsoever.
I wouldn't ask you to spend time answering things like "What if your baby
decides that since you have a stroller he'll just stop walking?"
<<please be patient with me for asking questions; i am still *very very* much
in "school" mode and want to learn how to get out, and if it works, etc. >>
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Did you look at that yet?
Have you read any at www.unschooling.com? (Message boards, scroll to the
bottom for "new messages" maybe, or just look through the topics and read what
seems interesting even if it's old.)
I don't mind being patient, but the implied insult in asking something like
you asked (though you might not have thought about it) is that maybe someone
like, say ME, who has unschooled for twelve years, might not have considered, or
maybe might not have noticed, that kids are doing nothing.
If this couldn't work, there wouldn't be so many people doing it, and if it
weren't working for ME, I wouldn't be in here helping others understand it. So
to combine these things:
-=-please be patient with me for asking questions; i am still *very very*
much in "school" mode and want to learn how to get out, and if it works, etc.-=-
.... "if it works" with "be patient" cancels itself out to some extent for
me.
Possibly I'm being more grumpy than I need to be, but please PLEASE try to
couch your questions in terms that aren't quite so insulting. You have a
child who is learning more words each week than many adults will learn in a year.
You have a child who has learned everything he knows easily and happily. I
have three children who were like yours when they were two and a half, and who
have since then learned to read and do math and find countries on globes and
to do all kinds of wonderful things without being taught, and without being
lazy and expecting other people to do it for them.
Part of what makes it fun and easy and real for them is that when they ask me
a question, I answer it the way I would if they were adults and asked me.
Respectfully, kindly, simply, honestly, without teacher-voice, poodle-voice,
googie voice, without shame or "a lesson," as much as I can without doing damage
to their joy and confidence.
Sandra
<< BUT. what if they never want to figure it out for themselves 'cause it's
easier to get the answer from someone? how will they ever learn how to do it
for themselves then? >>
I don't want to put energy into answering hypothetical questions like this,
honestly.
You have a baby, and there are people here with lots of older and some grown
kids who are NOT lacking the ability to do things for themselves at all,
whatsoever.
I wouldn't ask you to spend time answering things like "What if your baby
decides that since you have a stroller he'll just stop walking?"
<<please be patient with me for asking questions; i am still *very very* much
in "school" mode and want to learn how to get out, and if it works, etc. >>
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Did you look at that yet?
Have you read any at www.unschooling.com? (Message boards, scroll to the
bottom for "new messages" maybe, or just look through the topics and read what
seems interesting even if it's old.)
I don't mind being patient, but the implied insult in asking something like
you asked (though you might not have thought about it) is that maybe someone
like, say ME, who has unschooled for twelve years, might not have considered, or
maybe might not have noticed, that kids are doing nothing.
If this couldn't work, there wouldn't be so many people doing it, and if it
weren't working for ME, I wouldn't be in here helping others understand it. So
to combine these things:
-=-please be patient with me for asking questions; i am still *very very*
much in "school" mode and want to learn how to get out, and if it works, etc.-=-
.... "if it works" with "be patient" cancels itself out to some extent for
me.
Possibly I'm being more grumpy than I need to be, but please PLEASE try to
couch your questions in terms that aren't quite so insulting. You have a
child who is learning more words each week than many adults will learn in a year.
You have a child who has learned everything he knows easily and happily. I
have three children who were like yours when they were two and a half, and who
have since then learned to read and do math and find countries on globes and
to do all kinds of wonderful things without being taught, and without being
lazy and expecting other people to do it for them.
Part of what makes it fun and easy and real for them is that when they ask me
a question, I answer it the way I would if they were adults and asked me.
Respectfully, kindly, simply, honestly, without teacher-voice, poodle-voice,
googie voice, without shame or "a lesson," as much as I can without doing damage
to their joy and confidence.
Sandra
Nancy Wooton
on 7/20/03 7:14 PM, Pamela Tiger at mercyn@... wrote:
help. Measuring cups and spoons are a great introduction to fractions, for
instance, but you don't have to make a "lesson" out of it -- let him play
with them in the sink or tub or sandbox, and discover for himself that two
of one cup fills one other cup. Let him stir a bowl of pudding, let him
paint the shower wall and his nekkid self with it, then just bathe him when
he's done. (You can even spread the pudding on the tile like fingerpaint
and draw letters and numbers if you need to :-) There are all kinds of fun
things you can do while accomplishing those basic needs.
Have fun!
Nancy
--
The most effective kind of education is that a child should play amongst
lovely things.
--Plato, philosopher (427-347 BCE)
> it's a long story, but she's being brought up to think that looks and beingIs it possible she might have a learning disability?
> popular are the only things that matter. she ain't the brightest bulb on the
> tree, but she has this weird mix of mature (street) and very, very, VERY
> immature. she can be very compassionate. sometimes. but book smart? no one
> could accuse her of that.
>
>> Many unschooling parents have interests they pursueMaking dinner is part of life, therefore part of unschooling. Let the kids
>
> oh, goodness....maybe this isn't for me, then. i have tons of
> interests.....but VERY lousy follow-through. very. "someday" is my mantra. but
> then, right now, as a single parent of a toddler i am juggling the daily
> stuff. i keep thinking maybe when he's older and has less needs (you know
> which ones i mean, like diapers, dressing, brushing teeth, basic stuff that he
> will be able to do himself) then we can persue more fun stuff. i hope. but it
> seems like, again, my mantra is "someday". i don't know how to make "someday"
> be "now" without sacrificing things like, oh, making dinner?
help. Measuring cups and spoons are a great introduction to fractions, for
instance, but you don't have to make a "lesson" out of it -- let him play
with them in the sink or tub or sandbox, and discover for himself that two
of one cup fills one other cup. Let him stir a bowl of pudding, let him
paint the shower wall and his nekkid self with it, then just bathe him when
he's done. (You can even spread the pudding on the tile like fingerpaint
and draw letters and numbers if you need to :-) There are all kinds of fun
things you can do while accomplishing those basic needs.
Have fun!
Nancy
--
The most effective kind of education is that a child should play amongst
lovely things.
--Plato, philosopher (427-347 BCE)
Betsy
<< BUT. what if they never want to figure it out for themselves 'cause
it's
easier to get the answer from someone? how will they ever learn how to
do it for themselves then? >>
I can't imagine how a child who never had their little hands slapped or
their big ideas laughed at could possibly end up this way. Unless they
were suffering from a major chemical imbalance in the brain.
"Learned helplessness" is an interesting psychological phenomenon and
it's possible to find out more about it on google. I think I learned
about it in a book called "Learned Optimism". It's a good book, but
didn't have all the info in it that I wanted about learning to be optimistic.
Betsy
it's
easier to get the answer from someone? how will they ever learn how to
do it for themselves then? >>
I can't imagine how a child who never had their little hands slapped or
their big ideas laughed at could possibly end up this way. Unless they
were suffering from a major chemical imbalance in the brain.
"Learned helplessness" is an interesting psychological phenomenon and
it's possible to find out more about it on google. I think I learned
about it in a book called "Learned Optimism". It's a good book, but
didn't have all the info in it that I wanted about learning to be optimistic.
Betsy
Pamela Tiger
> I don't mind being patient, but the implied insult in asking somethinglike
> you asked (though you might not have thought about it) is that maybesomeone
> like, say ME, who has unschooled for twelve years, might not haveconsidered, or
> maybe might not have noticed, that kids are doing nothing.it
>
> If this couldn't work, there wouldn't be so many people doing it, and if
> weren't working for ME, I wouldn't be in here helping others understandit.
OK. i feel like i have been slapped in the face by someone i don't even
know. i asked what i meant to be a truly innocuous question and i got flamed
in return. you inferred insult where there was none.
i got news for you: if you want to preach to the choir, that is fine, but
if you want people to come to this way of life it's a darn good idea not to
attack them in their innocence and infancy and ignorance. i did not attack
you. i did not belittle you. i asked a hypothetical question because to me
it is not hypothetical. i have one example to guide me, and that is the
stepdaughter that i already mentioned. i do not want my son to grow up this
way. i am a new mom, and at the time of that example i gave, was a new
stepmom, and so have no other examples to go by. i know no other kids. now
my son is 2.5, and i know no kids older than toddlers, except for the 13yo
girl next door, and she's a pi** poor example too. she goes to a baptist
school.
when i read your response, my first reaction was shock. whatever it was you
read into my post, surely i did not mean it. you did not come across as
grumpy, but outright hostile. my second reaction was anger, and i am still
very angry. my first impulse is to tell you to go flip yourself, but i am
sticking with this, cause i want to learn. i am not giving up yet.
let me give you some background about me.
5 months ago i moved 8 hours away from where i was. i moved to a relatively
"crunchy" area. here, i can go to playgroups for my son, nurse him, most of
the parents are vegetarian (or veg friendly), most cloth diaper, most
wouldn't bat an eye at someone nursing a 2.5 year old. most home/unschool.
where i was before, i was a freak. where i was before, there were these
options for education:
1) public school
2) the christian academy
3) homeschool
4) the new montessori, which just opened, has a waiting list 14,000 years
long, and only goes to (i think) 4th grade.
not many homeschool (only born-again christians, and i am not one), and
nobody unschools. there are no resources, no networking. i first heard the
term "unschool" when i was pregnant with my son, and i heard that at a big
camping gathering, 11 hours away from home. i filed it away in the back of
my brain for future use. it sounded interesting, but not understanding it, i
wondered how feasible it was.
then i had my son, and i knew that i did not want to send him to public
school.
when i moved here this year, and realized how popular home/unschooling is, i
realized that maybe, just maybe i could do it. at least i'd have support and
company.
so finally, the other day, i searched around on yahoogroups and signed up
for a few, to see what i could learn. i picked "AlwaysLearning" and a couple
others.
>http://sandradodd.com/deschoolingwhat
> Did you look at that yet?
> Have you read any at www.unschooling.com? (Message boards, scroll to the
> bottom for "new messages" maybe, or just look through the topics and read
> seems interesting even if it's old.)no, i did not read those sites yet. got more news for you, Ms. Dodd, up
>
until yesterday i had never heard of you. i had no idea you unschooled for
12 years. i *don't* know how it works for you. apparently you are some kind
of Grand Hoo-Ha in the unschooling movement, and i did find two articles by
you last night which i read with fervor, but after this post i must say i am
most unimpressed with your attitude. did you forget that the name of this
list is "Always Learning"? are your children the only ones you are trying to
teach?? oops.....i meant, are they the only ones learning from you? (see, i
picked up at least that much lingo already). don't forget, there *are* those
of us who know absolutely diddly. so no, i did not mean to be insulting. if
you knew me you would know that i am most humble most of the time and would
*never* insult someone, and if i have done so unintentionally, i most humbly
apologize.
> If this couldn't work, there wouldn't be so many people doing it, and ifit
> weren't working for ME, I wouldn't be in here helping others understandit.
i have no idea how many people are doing it. like i said, i never heard of
it till recently, and i only know one person who is trying it. and her son
is not yet 3. so for me, the proof is not in the pudding. not yet.
and FWIW, you are not helping me to understand it by attacking me the way
you did. you are helping me to understand that you have a bee in your bonnet
about those who don't understand.
look, i am a minority too; i am a crunchy Pagan, i'm 43 years old in a 24
year old's mind (long story), i don't fit in either. my mom and brother
think i'm already out of my mind; now they think i am *really* doing my son
a disservice cause i don't vax him and want to homeschool him. i *know* how
it feels to stand up against the mainstream. i am not here to scratch at you
like the rest of them. i am here cause i want the best for my son, but i
have been reared in the best of what the '50s had to offer-- TV dinners,
beaver cleaver stuff, mainstream rules. and it's hard to get away from that
mindset, even though my instinct is screaming out that that is unnatural and
to find something real, something that works. so look. take a chill pill. i
need HELP here, not derision. if i am not asking a question in the "right"
way, please don't flame me for it! i *will* get it. but not on my first day,
or first week. you are setting for me unreasonable expectations that you
would never do with your kids. do you think that's fair?
>"if it works" with "be patient" cancels itself out to some extent forme.
well, i'm sorry. how am i supposed to know that if i had no idea? would you
berate your children for asking something that way if they did not know? you
say " when they ask me a question, I answer it the way I would if they were
adults and asked me. Respectfully, kindly, simply, honestly, without
teacher-voice, poodle-voice, googie voice, without shame or "a lesson," as
much as I can without doing damage to their joy and confidence."
well, how about treating your fellow adults the same way? just because we
are all older does not give us a monopoly on knowing everything. guess what?
you sent your post to someone who is ultra-sensitive (long story also), and
you DID do damage to my joy and confidence (of which i have little to begin
with).
so PLEASE watch what you say and how you say it, especially to newbies. with
power comes responsibility. k? can we start over now?
bb,
pamela
> << BUT. what if they never want to figure it out for themselves 'causeit's
> easier to get the answer from someone? how will they ever learn how to doit
> for themselves then? >>this,
>
> I don't want to put energy into answering hypothetical questions like
> honestly.grown
>
> You have a baby, and there are people here with lots of older and some
> kids who are NOT lacking the ability to do things for themselves at all,much
> whatsoever.
>
> I wouldn't ask you to spend time answering things like "What if your baby
> decides that since you have a stroller he'll just stop walking?"
>
> <<please be patient with me for asking questions; i am still *very very*
> in "school" mode and want to learn how to get out, and if it works, etc.what
>>
>
> http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
>
> Did you look at that yet?
> Have you read any at www.unschooling.com? (Message boards, scroll to the
> bottom for "new messages" maybe, or just look through the topics and read
> seems interesting even if it's old.)like
>
> I don't mind being patient, but the implied insult in asking something
> you asked (though you might not have thought about it) is that maybesomeone
> like, say ME, who has unschooled for twelve years, might not haveconsidered, or
> maybe might not have noticed, that kids are doing nothing.it
>
> If this couldn't work, there wouldn't be so many people doing it, and if
> weren't working for ME, I wouldn't be in here helping others understandit. So
> to combine these things:etc.-=-
>
> -=-please be patient with me for asking questions; i am still *very very*
> much in "school" mode and want to learn how to get out, and if it works,
>for
> .... "if it works" with "be patient" cancels itself out to some extent
> me.a
>
> Possibly I'm being more grumpy than I need to be, but please PLEASE try to
> couch your questions in terms that aren't quite so insulting. You have
> child who is learning more words each week than many adults will learn ina year.
> You have a child who has learned everything he knows easily and happily.I
> have three children who were like yours when they were two and a half, andwho
> have since then learned to read and do math and find countries on globesand
> to do all kinds of wonderful things without being taught, and withoutbeing
> lazy and expecting other people to do it for them.me
>
> Part of what makes it fun and easy and real for them is that when they ask
> a question, I answer it the way I would if they were adults and asked me.poodle-voice,
> Respectfully, kindly, simply, honestly, without teacher-voice,
> googie voice, without shame or "a lesson," as much as I can without doingdamage
> to their joy and confidence.
>
>
>
> Sandra
badolbilz
Hi Pam. I would like to respond to your questions about unschooling
from my point of view. Six months ago, I had never even heard of such a
thing. I'm 32 and have 4 daughters ages 7, 5, almost 3, and 8 months.
My grand plan had been to send my dds to preschool and kindergarten
across the street from us at the Catholic School where my husband went
as a child and then homeschool them with a curriculum. First dd went
for the two years and I sent my second dd to their preschool.
I did try to teach my first dd at home, but it wasn't working. We were
butting heads so much and she was just getting frustrated. So I let up
for awhile while I read more about homeschooling methods. I came across
Unschooling.com and signed up there as well as this list. At first, I
was amazed this was even possible, but it made so much sense to me. I
did have a lot of questions and got some pretty heated answers
sometimes. I'm sensitive too especially when I know I'm ignorant about
something, kinda like my oldest dd when I tried to teach her :)
Anyway, here's what I've learned about "How to do it?" What you need
to do is just love your child with an open heart and open hands. Be
supporting, but not surrounding. This includes sleeping and eating and
playing and everything they do. I like to picture it like this: The
ideal in a free society is to get up every morning in joy, loving what
you will do that day, knowing that the choices you make are your
choices, and knowing you have the support of those around you to make
those choices with the best intent. This ideal should begin at birth
and never stop. It IS possible to give this gift to our children. The
most difficult parts will be letting go of all your childhood upbringing
to "force" children to do things and instead guide them, talk to them
nonstop in an equal, conversational way. It is very hard to convince
friends and family so remember, you really don't HAVE to convince anyone
because it's YOUR child. It can also be difficult to meet your state's
(or area's) educational requirements. I live in NY which is apparently
one of the toughest, but it's not impossible, just a pain in the neck to
do all the paperwork.
So that's pretty much my take on it. Oh yeah, from this day forward
every second of your life should become an example for you child. Life
and breathe to set the example you want them to see. That's not always
easy, but it's vital. And smile and laugh hard every day. Every single
day.
Good luck, Heidi
from my point of view. Six months ago, I had never even heard of such a
thing. I'm 32 and have 4 daughters ages 7, 5, almost 3, and 8 months.
My grand plan had been to send my dds to preschool and kindergarten
across the street from us at the Catholic School where my husband went
as a child and then homeschool them with a curriculum. First dd went
for the two years and I sent my second dd to their preschool.
I did try to teach my first dd at home, but it wasn't working. We were
butting heads so much and she was just getting frustrated. So I let up
for awhile while I read more about homeschooling methods. I came across
Unschooling.com and signed up there as well as this list. At first, I
was amazed this was even possible, but it made so much sense to me. I
did have a lot of questions and got some pretty heated answers
sometimes. I'm sensitive too especially when I know I'm ignorant about
something, kinda like my oldest dd when I tried to teach her :)
Anyway, here's what I've learned about "How to do it?" What you need
to do is just love your child with an open heart and open hands. Be
supporting, but not surrounding. This includes sleeping and eating and
playing and everything they do. I like to picture it like this: The
ideal in a free society is to get up every morning in joy, loving what
you will do that day, knowing that the choices you make are your
choices, and knowing you have the support of those around you to make
those choices with the best intent. This ideal should begin at birth
and never stop. It IS possible to give this gift to our children. The
most difficult parts will be letting go of all your childhood upbringing
to "force" children to do things and instead guide them, talk to them
nonstop in an equal, conversational way. It is very hard to convince
friends and family so remember, you really don't HAVE to convince anyone
because it's YOUR child. It can also be difficult to meet your state's
(or area's) educational requirements. I live in NY which is apparently
one of the toughest, but it's not impossible, just a pain in the neck to
do all the paperwork.
So that's pretty much my take on it. Oh yeah, from this day forward
every second of your life should become an example for you child. Life
and breathe to set the example you want them to see. That's not always
easy, but it's vital. And smile and laugh hard every day. Every single
day.
Good luck, Heidi
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/21/03 11:23:07 PM, mercyn@... writes:
<< did you forget that the name of this
list is "Always Learning"? >>
No, I named it.
<<are your children the only ones you are trying to
teach?? oops.....i meant, are they the only ones learning from you?>>
No. People learn from everything around them all the time.
<<i did not mean to be insulting. if
you knew me you would know that i am most humble most of the time and would
*never* insult someone, and if i have done so unintentionally, i most humbly
apologize.>>
If you knew me or my kids, or if you knew any unschooled kids, you wouldn't
have worded your inquiry in such a way as I felt insulted, I'm sure. You would
have LOTS of confidence in unschooling if you met the kids of some of the
people on this list.
-=-you are helping me to understand that you have a bee in your bonnet
about those who don't understand.-=-
It has nothing to do with your level of understanding, it had to do with the
way your worded your original post. Have you looked at it again?
Complaining and denying that what you said was in any way offensive doesn't
help you unschool. It doesn't help me want to help you either. But IF you can
JUST ask your questions without saying things that can be seen as implying
that our kids probably aren't as cool as you want your kid to be (or whatever it
was, it was hundreds of posts ago in my reading) then you'll get LOTS of the
people on this list to help you generously and surely.
-=-i am here cause i want the best for my son, but i
have been reared in the best of what the '50s had to offer-- TV dinners,
beaver cleaver stuff, mainstream rules. and it's hard to get away from that
mindset, even though my instinct is screaming out that that is unnatural and
to find something real, something that works. -=-
I was born in 1953. I changed and you can too. Thousands of people can and
do live more peacefully and thoughtfully with their kids every day, not just
from unschooing ideas, but (as you probably could list off yourself, so I'm
saying nothing too exciting) La Leche League, Continuum Concept, all kinds of
mindful parenting sources and ideas big and small. This list exists because
people are willing to help you. I keep webpages on a website I pay for by the
month so people can get to unschooling and parenting help without seeing any
pop-up menus and so the address can be easy to remember and type in.
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://sandradodd.com/life
<<so look. take a chill pill.>>
SO look.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
And try to ask your questions without insulting the people you want help from.
<<you are setting for me unreasonable expectations that you
would never do with your kids. do you think that's fair?>>
I'm not setting expectations on you. I told you how I felt about what you
wrote.
I assume you really DO want help. So look at the help, not at the helper.
Sandra
<< did you forget that the name of this
list is "Always Learning"? >>
No, I named it.
<<are your children the only ones you are trying to
teach?? oops.....i meant, are they the only ones learning from you?>>
No. People learn from everything around them all the time.
<<i did not mean to be insulting. if
you knew me you would know that i am most humble most of the time and would
*never* insult someone, and if i have done so unintentionally, i most humbly
apologize.>>
If you knew me or my kids, or if you knew any unschooled kids, you wouldn't
have worded your inquiry in such a way as I felt insulted, I'm sure. You would
have LOTS of confidence in unschooling if you met the kids of some of the
people on this list.
-=-you are helping me to understand that you have a bee in your bonnet
about those who don't understand.-=-
It has nothing to do with your level of understanding, it had to do with the
way your worded your original post. Have you looked at it again?
Complaining and denying that what you said was in any way offensive doesn't
help you unschool. It doesn't help me want to help you either. But IF you can
JUST ask your questions without saying things that can be seen as implying
that our kids probably aren't as cool as you want your kid to be (or whatever it
was, it was hundreds of posts ago in my reading) then you'll get LOTS of the
people on this list to help you generously and surely.
-=-i am here cause i want the best for my son, but i
have been reared in the best of what the '50s had to offer-- TV dinners,
beaver cleaver stuff, mainstream rules. and it's hard to get away from that
mindset, even though my instinct is screaming out that that is unnatural and
to find something real, something that works. -=-
I was born in 1953. I changed and you can too. Thousands of people can and
do live more peacefully and thoughtfully with their kids every day, not just
from unschooing ideas, but (as you probably could list off yourself, so I'm
saying nothing too exciting) La Leche League, Continuum Concept, all kinds of
mindful parenting sources and ideas big and small. This list exists because
people are willing to help you. I keep webpages on a website I pay for by the
month so people can get to unschooling and parenting help without seeing any
pop-up menus and so the address can be easy to remember and type in.
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
http://sandradodd.com/life
<<so look. take a chill pill.>>
SO look.
Take what you like and leave the rest.
And try to ask your questions without insulting the people you want help from.
<<you are setting for me unreasonable expectations that you
would never do with your kids. do you think that's fair?>>
I'm not setting expectations on you. I told you how I felt about what you
wrote.
I assume you really DO want help. So look at the help, not at the helper.
Sandra
Kathleen and David Gehrke
That was beautiful. The hardest part for me is being
an example everyday... Not getting stressed and
controlling.. still working on it... Kathleen
--- badolbilz <ynxn96@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
an example everyday... Not getting stressed and
controlling.. still working on it... Kathleen
--- badolbilz <ynxn96@...> wrote:
> Hi Pam. I would like to respond to your questions__________________________________
> about unschooling
> from my point of view. Six months ago, I had never
> even heard of such a
> thing. I'm 32 and have 4 daughters ages 7, 5,
> almost 3, and 8 months.
> My grand plan had been to send my dds to preschool
> and kindergarten
> across the street from us at the Catholic School
> where my husband went
> as a child and then homeschool them with a
> curriculum. First dd went
> for the two years and I sent my second dd to their
> preschool.
>
> I did try to teach my first dd at home, but it
> wasn't working. We were
> butting heads so much and she was just getting
> frustrated. So I let up
> for awhile while I read more about homeschooling
> methods. I came across
> Unschooling.com and signed up there as well as this
> list. At first, I
> was amazed this was even possible, but it made so
> much sense to me. I
> did have a lot of questions and got some pretty
> heated answers
> sometimes. I'm sensitive too especially when I know
> I'm ignorant about
> something, kinda like my oldest dd when I tried to
> teach her :)
>
> Anyway, here's what I've learned about "How to do
> it?" What you need
> to do is just love your child with an open heart and
> open hands. Be
> supporting, but not surrounding. This includes
> sleeping and eating and
> playing and everything they do. I like to picture
> it like this: The
> ideal in a free society is to get up every morning
> in joy, loving what
> you will do that day, knowing that the choices you
> make are your
> choices, and knowing you have the support of those
> around you to make
> those choices with the best intent. This ideal
> should begin at birth
> and never stop. It IS possible to give this gift to
> our children. The
> most difficult parts will be letting go of all your
> childhood upbringing
> to "force" children to do things and instead guide
> them, talk to them
> nonstop in an equal, conversational way. It is very
> hard to convince
> friends and family so remember, you really don't
> HAVE to convince anyone
> because it's YOUR child. It can also be difficult
> to meet your state's
> (or area's) educational requirements. I live in NY
> which is apparently
> one of the toughest, but it's not impossible, just a
> pain in the neck to
> do all the paperwork.
>
> So that's pretty much my take on it. Oh yeah, from
> this day forward
> every second of your life should become an example
> for you child. Life
> and breathe to set the example you want them to see.
> That's not always
> easy, but it's vital. And smile and laugh hard
> every day. Every single
> day.
>
> Good luck, Heidi
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Pamela Tiger
thank you, heidi, for that insightful post on unschooling from your point of view.
luckily, i live in NC, which i hear is pretty lax about laws re: keeping kids out of public schools.
you said: "Oh yeah, from this day forward
every second of your life should become an example for you child. Life
and breathe to set the example you want them to see."
OMG, how hard!! i don't even live the example *I* want me to see! hmm, new goal. and you are right, i don't laugh enough. i try to get my son into tickle fights just so i can crack up with him!
thanks again,
pamela
as above, so below.....blessed be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
luckily, i live in NC, which i hear is pretty lax about laws re: keeping kids out of public schools.
you said: "Oh yeah, from this day forward
every second of your life should become an example for you child. Life
and breathe to set the example you want them to see."
OMG, how hard!! i don't even live the example *I* want me to see! hmm, new goal. and you are right, i don't laugh enough. i try to get my son into tickle fights just so i can crack up with him!
thanks again,
pamela
as above, so below.....blessed be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Tiger
<<<<If you knew me or my kids, or if you knew any unschooled kids, you wouldn't
have worded your inquiry in such a way as I felt insulted, I'm sure. You would
have LOTS of confidence in unschooling if you met the kids of some of the
people on this list. >>>
you are right. as i told you in my last post, i do not know any home/unschooled kids, at all. everyone i now know (in my new locale) plans to home/unschool, but all the kids are under age 4. and i bet i *would* have lots of confidence in unschooling if i met any kids who are unschooled.
<<<<Complaining and denying that what you said was in any way offensive doesn't
help you unschool. >>>
i did not deny that what i said was offensive. i said "if i was offensive, i apologize".
<<<But IF you can
JUST ask your questions without saying things that can be seen as implying
that our kids probably aren't as cool as you want your kid to be >>>
again. i'm sorry if you inferred something that was NOT THERE. i am sure home/unschooled kids are WAY cooler than most. which is why i'm interested. but. i don't know any (for clarification, that means, i don't know any home/unschooled kids, NOT that i don't know any who are cool).
thank you for the websites. you can bet i'll look at the help.
pamela
as above, so below.....blessed be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have worded your inquiry in such a way as I felt insulted, I'm sure. You would
have LOTS of confidence in unschooling if you met the kids of some of the
people on this list. >>>
you are right. as i told you in my last post, i do not know any home/unschooled kids, at all. everyone i now know (in my new locale) plans to home/unschool, but all the kids are under age 4. and i bet i *would* have lots of confidence in unschooling if i met any kids who are unschooled.
<<<<Complaining and denying that what you said was in any way offensive doesn't
help you unschool. >>>
i did not deny that what i said was offensive. i said "if i was offensive, i apologize".
<<<But IF you can
JUST ask your questions without saying things that can be seen as implying
that our kids probably aren't as cool as you want your kid to be >>>
again. i'm sorry if you inferred something that was NOT THERE. i am sure home/unschooled kids are WAY cooler than most. which is why i'm interested. but. i don't know any (for clarification, that means, i don't know any home/unschooled kids, NOT that i don't know any who are cool).
thank you for the websites. you can bet i'll look at the help.
pamela
as above, so below.....blessed be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/23/2003 10:52:20 PM Central Daylight Time,
mercyn@... writes:
hazard a guess that there are probably plenty of unschoolers in both
locations, and that you just didn't know about them.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mercyn@... writes:
> you are right. as i told you in my last post, i do not know anyI'm intensely curious about where you moved from and where you moved to. I'd
> home/unschooled kids, at all. everyone i now know (in my new locale) plans to
> home/unschool, but all the kids are under age 4. and i bet i *would* have lots of
> confidence in unschooling if i met any kids who are unschooled.
>
hazard a guess that there are probably plenty of unschoolers in both
locations, and that you just didn't know about them.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Tiger
> you are right. as i told you in my last post, i do not know anyi moved from the Outer Banks of North Carolina to the Asheville area. you're probably right, but i did sort of scope it out in my old locale. i didn't scope much, cause my son was so young. he still is, but now he's 2.5 and i figure i better get on the stick before he's much older and i still don't know anything! plus all i came up with was conservative Christians and that was it. not that there is anything wrong with them, but i am not one, and i am aware that the subject of their religion is very important to them, as in passing it on, and i did not want to be pressured with it. here, there are plenty of crunchy earth mamas and Pagans and hippies, and i feel normal <g>
> home/unschooled kids, at all. everyone i now know (in my new locale) plans to
> home/unschool, but all the kids are under age 4. and i bet i *would* have lots of
> confidence in unschooling if i met any kids who are unschooled.
>
>I'm intensely curious about where you moved from and where you moved to. I'd
>>hazard a guess that there are probably plenty of unschoolers in both
>locations, and that you just didn't know about them.
pamela
as above, so below.....blessed be!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny E.
Pamela,
Why don't you try starting a yahoo group for your area? The homeschool group that I am a part of was started by a woman that moved to town and started a homeschooling list. We had a few groups in town that were the conservation Christian/school at home type. She started this one, I was the first person to join and for almost the first year it was her, I and one other family. Now about 2 years later....we have something like 40 families. The list grew in spurts and we have a really nice core group. It is an inclusive group, so we have a variety of homeschooling styles. You may want to describe your group more specific to what you are looking for. Or describe it as an inclusive/secular group. You want to be sure that people in the area don't think it's just another group like the ones that already exist.
I hope this makes sense and can help you out.
And I am admitting that I am really behind on mail and hope this isn't repeating something that has already been said.
Namaste,
Jen :o)
Mom to Beck (7) and Dane (4)
From: "Pamela Tiger" <mercyn@...>
here, there are plenty of crunchy earth mamas and Pagans and hippies, and i feel normal <g>
Why don't you try starting a yahoo group for your area? The homeschool group that I am a part of was started by a woman that moved to town and started a homeschooling list. We had a few groups in town that were the conservation Christian/school at home type. She started this one, I was the first person to join and for almost the first year it was her, I and one other family. Now about 2 years later....we have something like 40 families. The list grew in spurts and we have a really nice core group. It is an inclusive group, so we have a variety of homeschooling styles. You may want to describe your group more specific to what you are looking for. Or describe it as an inclusive/secular group. You want to be sure that people in the area don't think it's just another group like the ones that already exist.
I hope this makes sense and can help you out.
And I am admitting that I am really behind on mail and hope this isn't repeating something that has already been said.
Namaste,
Jen :o)
Mom to Beck (7) and Dane (4)
From: "Pamela Tiger" <mercyn@...>
here, there are plenty of crunchy earth mamas and Pagans and hippies, and i feel normal <g>
> pamela
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 7/24/03 10:13:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mercyn@... writes:
that far away. She lives in Conover and I live in Valdese, both near Hickory
about an hour from you. Sometime we will have to drive up and see you. We have
driven further.
Actually I don't think Teresa is on this list. Sorry. Another unschooler,
another list.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mercyn@... writes:
> i moved from the Outer Banks of North Carolina to the Asheville areaThere are a couple of unschoolers up where you live. Teresa and I are not
that far away. She lives in Conover and I live in Valdese, both near Hickory
about an hour from you. Sometime we will have to drive up and see you. We have
driven further.
Actually I don't think Teresa is on this list. Sorry. Another unschooler,
another list.
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]