Janet Hamlin

>>> This is the simplest way I can think of that requires little to no money
> and is humane. I would tentatively suggest that your friend could
> possibly
> do the same as my vet by making a fairly airtight box out of plywood and
> caulking, line it with comfy cushions or blankets to keep the cat
> comfortable and attach a plastic hose to the box that would go over
> the end
> of a car exhaust (ensuring it is long enough that no heat reaches the cat
> box.) Turning on the car would create a gas which would put the cat
> into a
> stupor fairly quickly, eventually causing them to pass on. If she
> wants to
> hold the cat and the cat is fairly insensate already, using a large,
> clear
> plastic bag (attached to the hose) instead of the box might be
> feasable. It also might be more difficult for her emotionally.
> Please be sure she does these things with the garage door OPEN, to ensure
> she does not accompany her cat in its voyage.<<

I would think this FAR more stressful on the cat than a trip in the car to
the vet. Locking it in an escape-proof box and gassing it with exhaust is
NOT HUMANE! Imagine the cat's terror as it tries to escape and can't. What
a horrible way to die.

Speaking from experience, gassing a cat with anesthesia while it is confined
to a small box is very stressful on the cat and is NOT recommended as a
first choice for anesthesia, either. They thrash horribly! If this is the
way your vet routinely anesthetizes animals, I would RUN as fast as possible
to another vet!!

JMNSHO.

Janet

Pam Hartley

> I would think this FAR more stressful on the cat than a trip in the car to
> the vet. Locking it in an escape-proof box and gassing it with exhaust is
> NOT HUMANE! Imagine the cat's terror as it tries to escape and can't. What
> a horrible way to die.
>
> Speaking from experience, gassing a cat with anesthesia while it is confined
> to a small box is very stressful on the cat and is NOT recommended as a
> first choice for anesthesia, either. They thrash horribly! If this is the
> way your vet routinely anesthetizes animals, I would RUN as fast as possible
> to another vet!!
>
> JMNSHO.
>
> Janet
>

While I don't recommend the method for euthanizing a pet cat, C02 is not a
horrible way to die. People die that way all the time, accidentally and on
purpose, and it's very peaceful.

(Car exhaust, by the way, is hot -- that's definitely not humane unless it
were passed through a hose long enough that it cooled down along the route.
Yes, I'm talking theory here, not making suggestions).

Basically C02 is what we use when we have to euthanize our rabbits (dwarf
breed, under 3 pounds), guinea pigs, rats, etc. We make it from baking soda
and vinegar in two doses (first one puts the animal to sleep, literally, the
second one finishes the job). In my educated and experienced opinion, it's a
lot less stressful than a ride in the car or being stuck with a needle. It's
AVMA and USDA approved euthanasia for rodents and their near relatives like
rabbits.

It doesn't cause any distress for the animal (and I do mean none -- we
maintain large show and breeding herds of both rabbits and guinea pigs so
unfortunately the deed needs done quite regularly here).

Most other humane "home" euthanasia takes a lot of intestinal fortitude on
the part of the human -- cervical dislocation, blunt force,
appropriate-caliber pistol shot to the head, can all be humane if done
right, but it's not something most people are prepared to do at all, much
less right, hence the need for trips to the vet for suffering animals.

Pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/4/03 1:11:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:

> While I don't recommend the method for euthanizing a pet cat, C02 is not a
> horrible way to die. People die that way all the time, accidentally and on
> purpose, and it's very peaceful.
>
> (Car exhaust, by the way, is hot -- that's definitely not humane unless it
> were passed through a hose long enough that it cooled down along the route.
> Yes, I'm talking theory here, not making suggestions).
>
>

My dad used car exhaust to kill himself, while no one was there to witness
that, it appeared to be peaceful. Short garden hose from exhaust to the
drivers side window where he sat. No burning, it appeared like he just fell
asleep.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dana

I just heard recently that our legislature was trying to make it legal, here
in Montana, to be able to euthanize your own pets. That means that now, or
until now, it was/is illegal. I think I would find out if it's legal where
you live.....
(this does not include livestock)
Dana
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pam Hartley" <pamhartley@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Animal Euthanasia


> > I would think this FAR more stressful on the cat than a trip in the car
to
> > the vet. Locking it in an escape-proof box and gassing it with exhaust
is
> > NOT HUMANE! Imagine the cat's terror as it tries to escape and can't.
What
> > a horrible way to die.
> >
> > Speaking from experience, gassing a cat with anesthesia while it is
confined
> > to a small box is very stressful on the cat and is NOT recommended as a
> > first choice for anesthesia, either. They thrash horribly! If this is
the
> > way your vet routinely anesthetizes animals, I would RUN as fast as
possible
> > to another vet!!
> >
> > JMNSHO.
> >
> > Janet
> >
>
> While I don't recommend the method for euthanizing a pet cat, C02 is not a
> horrible way to die. People die that way all the time, accidentally and on
> purpose, and it's very peaceful.
>
> (Car exhaust, by the way, is hot -- that's definitely not humane unless it
> were passed through a hose long enough that it cooled down along the
route.
> Yes, I'm talking theory here, not making suggestions).
>
> Basically C02 is what we use when we have to euthanize our rabbits (dwarf
> breed, under 3 pounds), guinea pigs, rats, etc. We make it from baking
soda
> and vinegar in two doses (first one puts the animal to sleep, literally,
the
> second one finishes the job). In my educated and experienced opinion, it's
a
> lot less stressful than a ride in the car or being stuck with a needle.
It's
> AVMA and USDA approved euthanasia for rodents and their near relatives lik
e
> rabbits.
>
> It doesn't cause any distress for the animal (and I do mean none -- we
> maintain large show and breeding herds of both rabbits and guinea pigs so
> unfortunately the deed needs done quite regularly here).
>
> Most other humane "home" euthanasia takes a lot of intestinal fortitude on
> the part of the human -- cervical dislocation, blunt force,
> appropriate-caliber pistol shot to the head, can all be humane if done
> right, but it's not something most people are prepared to do at all, much
> less right, hence the need for trips to the vet for suffering animals.
>
> Pam
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Bill and Diane

>
>
>My dad used car exhaust to kill himself, while no one was there to witness
>that, it appeared to be peaceful. Short garden hose from exhaust to the
>drivers side window where he sat. No burning, it appeared like he just fell
>asleep.
>Pam G.
>
Oh, Pam--I'm sorry to hear that! I had a great uncle do the same--came
home from a doc appt., closed the garage door and left the engine on.

:-) Diane

Pam Hartley

----------
>From: "Dana" <hoffmanwilson@...>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Animal Euthanasia
>Date: Fri, Apr 4, 2003, 11:22 AM
>

> I just heard recently that our legislature was trying to make it legal, here
> in Montana, to be able to euthanize your own pets. That means that now, or
> until now, it was/is illegal. I think I would find out if it's legal where
> you live.....
> (this does not include livestock)
> Dana
> ----- Original Message -----


Actually, it doesn't necessarily mean it was illegal. If there was no law at
all but some fuss about the topic, there can be a push to get a law approved
to answer the question that current law might not be addressing.

We have the same situation with homeschooling, interestingly, here in
California. It is not specifically legal to "homeschool", nor is it
specifically illegal to "homeschool". Thousands of us elect to homeschool in
this limbo (in fact preferring at this time NOT to have a specific law), not
waiting on Big Brother to tell us it's okay. ;)

I feel the same way about vet care (or medical care for humans for that
matter). Frankly, the vast majority of experienced laymen rabbit and guinea
pig breeders know more about their health and needs than the vast majority
of general-practice vets. Such is life with "exotics".

Pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/4/2003 1:36:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, genant2@...
writes:

> My dad used car exhaust to kill himself, while no one was there to witness
> that, it appeared to be peaceful. Short garden hose from exhaust to the
> drivers side window where he sat. No burning, it appeared like he just
> fell
> asleep.
> Pam G.

I'm so sorry, Pam!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/4/2003 2:44:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
> Frankly, the vast majority of experienced laymen rabbit and guinea
> pig breeders know more about their health and needs than the vast majority
> of general-practice vets. Such is life with "exotics".

And I'll recommend that someone contact a reputable breeder of his breed of
dog for specific info on a possible breed-related problem. Most vets don't
have time to learn every breed-specific disease/problem; the breeder has
dedicated his life to understand that breed. Often the breeder has WAAAY more
knowledge than the average veterinarian. The breeder may often send the
dog-owner back to the vet's and "arm" the vet with specifics that the vet
had previously not known.

~Kelly, not knocking vets!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema

>I would think this FAR more stressful on the cat than a trip in the car to
>the vet. Locking it in an escape-proof box and gassing it with exhaust is
>NOT HUMANE! Imagine the cat's terror as it tries to escape and can't. What
>a horrible way to die.

Excepting that you're forgetting that this animal is (according to the
post) in an advanced state of illness. I would seriously doubt that she
would be paying much attention to her surroundings, past knowing that she
was in a warm box with her favorite cushion. When my beloved basset came
down with lymphatic sarcoma, her last few days were basically
immobile. She grunted in effort trying to cross the floor and rarely moved
once down. Thankfully, we were able to afford the services of a vet who
came to our home and helped her pass on with us next to her. The woman
with the ill cat, (again, according to the post) has barely enough money
for food and cannot afford the luxury I was able to purchase.

I don't think I could personally do it, but if she's strong enough I still
feel it would be the most humane and un-tutored method of helping her cat
pass on. Much more humane than cervical dislocation or a more
'projectile-based' solution to her emotion-ridden problem.

As for the gassing of cats to work on them, my neighbor (a vet tech
currently on maternity leave) says that when she worked with my vet, a few
cats would get angry by the box-anesthesia procedure, but that those cats
were usually angry whenever they were seen. She felt that trying to inject
an angry non-anesthetized cat would be even more stressful on the cat than
a few moments in the box. She also mentioned that many cats were quite
relaxed in the box and would watch what she was doing until the meds took
hold. She felt that the handling of the animal prior to anesthesia really
had more impact on the animal's reaction to being confined, than actually
being *in* the confined space.

I hope I am never placed in the difficult situation this woman is in.
Heidi


"I prefer a person who will burn the flag and wrap themselves in the
constitution to a person who will burn the constitution and wrap themselves
in the flag" --- Molly Ivins

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/4/03 4:46:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:

> I'm so sorry, Pam!
>
>

Thank you everyone for the condolences. I am really OK with it. It happened
in 1996 a year and a half after my mother was killed in a car accident. We
were in Germany and it was very hard for my dad. He basically died when my
mother did and there was no stopping him. At least he died knowing he was
loved.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kate Green

>
> It doesn't cause any distress for the animal (and I do mean none -- we
> maintain large show and breeding herds of both rabbits and guinea pigs so
> unfortunately the deed needs done quite regularly here).

Can I ask why? If you are purposefully breeding them why kill them? I know
nothing about breeding (well apart from humans:)

Kate

Pam Hartley

----------
>From: Kate Green <karegree@...>
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Animal Euthanasia
>Date: Sat, Apr 5, 2003, 6:14 AM
>

>>
>> It doesn't cause any distress for the animal (and I do mean none -- we
>> maintain large show and breeding herds of both rabbits and guinea pigs so
>> unfortunately the deed needs done quite regularly here).
>
> Can I ask why? If you are purposefully breeding them why kill them? I know
> nothing about breeding (well apart from humans:)


Genetic defects, contagious or recurring illness, poor temperament, etc.

Pam

Janet Hamlin

>>Excepting that you're forgetting that this animal is (according to the
post) in an advanced state of illness. I would seriously doubt that she
would be paying much attention to her surroundings, past knowing that she
was in a warm box with her favorite cushion. <<

No, I'm not forgetting this. If the cat's illness is so advanced she
wouldn't notice the noxious exhaust fumes, neither would she notice a car
ride. The cat deserves better than this.

>>The woman with the ill cat, (again, according to the post) has barely
enough money for food and cannot afford the luxury I was able to purchase.<<

I understood that the cat owner had recently spent lots on vet bills and
couldn't afford the $85 the vet was going to charge for a house call. To
take the cat to the vet's office was going to be much cheaper, but the cat
owner felt it would be too stressful on the cat and wanted it euthanized at
home. Sometimes, when money is tight, one needs to do what they can afford
to do if they can't afford a more expensive option, assuming they couldn't
find a vet to do it cheaper.

>>As for the gassing of cats to work on them, my neighbor (a vet tech
currently on maternity leave) says that when she worked with my vet, a few
cats would get angry by the box-anesthesia procedure, but that those cats
were usually angry whenever they were seen. She felt that trying to inject
an angry non-anesthetized cat would be even more stressful on the cat than
a few moments in the box. She also mentioned that many cats were quite
relaxed in the box and would watch what she was doing until the meds took
hold. She felt that the handling of the animal prior to anesthesia really
had more impact on the animal's reaction to being confined, than actually
being *in* the confined space.<<


I absolutely hate tank inductions! There is too much stress on the cat, not
to mention the gas exposure to everyone in the vicinity (not to mention OSHA
frowns on this). My chamber sits in the cupboard, and I haven't had to gas a
cat in ages and I deal with alot of nasty psycho cats! DKT (injectable
combination) is a dream come true, to not only me, but my staff (all that
exposure to iso with the tank) and the cat (no stage II excitement, no
catecholamine release, etc).


Anyway, I will hopefully never put another cat through that again. IMHO
those boxes are a throwback to the 40's and should be used only in the most
extreme of extremes.



That said, if one can get hands on the cat well enough to shove it into the
box, one can get their hands on it well enough to do an IM injection. The
stress that those poor cats have to go through in the tank before they
collapse is far more than any injectable drug technique we would use, so the
fact that it may have been fractious and angry beforehand really holds not
much water.



Is your friend a licensed vet tech (CVT, LVT, or RVT) or a vet assistant?



Janet

BADOLBILZ

The first and only time I've had to make the decision to put a cat to
sleep, was my cat of 8 years named Jazz. She was dying from a stomach
tumor that I couldn't afford to have an ultrasound or exploratory
surgery on. I really couldn't even afford the $200 x-ray which
determined what was wrong. They just didn't know if the tumor was on an
organ from which it could be safely removed. So I had to sit by for a
month and watch her starving to death. I wanted her death to be
peaceful at home. But I also was so afraid the kids would find her dead
before me and I thought they were just too little to handle that. So on
the day she would have died anyway, my husband and I drove her to the
vet's office. They used a needle and she died. But that last few
minutes of her life, putting her out on the table and getting the shots
were not nice. That was the hardest part of all. I don't think I'll
ever forgive myself for that. She was my friend and I put her through
that at her very last moment.

I completely understand what it means to have to make such a
heartwrenching decision because of money. Maybe a vet could be found
who wouldn't charge for a housecall. Maybe she could offer to clean his
house in exchange or wash his car for a month. If I could do it over
again, I would have washed toilets if it meant not seeing that terror in
her eyes before they closed for the last time.

Sincerely, Heidi

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/6/2003 11:36:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ynxn96@... writes:
> I completely understand what it means to have to make such a
> heartwrenching decision because of money. Maybe a vet could be found
> who wouldn't charge for a housecall. Maybe she could offer to clean his
> house in exchange or wash his car for a month. If I could do it over
> again, I would have washed toilets if it meant not seeing that terror in
> her eyes before they closed for the last time.
>
> Sincerely, Heidi

My vets have several options:

You can deliver the animal to the clinic, say good-bye, and leave. They take
care of the rest.

You can take him to the clinic and hold him while they inject---like you did.

You can have the vet come to your house, no extra charge (and my vets have
never charged me for euthanasia at home or at the clinic), and put him down
there. If you are a regular client, I think mine often feel uncomfortable
charging you to "kill" your dog.

I know they've charged some folks (who weren't regular clients), but the fee
was paid a few days in advance so they didn't have to pay right afterwards
when they were so miserable.

OR you can ask them to call me and I will hold your pet in MY arms and cry
like a baby while you sit in another room.

As INCREDIBLY hard as it is, I prefer to BE there while they "go to sleep". I
adored them for many years; I was their buddy---and I feel responsible for
taking their lives, even it's for the best.

I've held many friends' (and a few strangers') dogs and cats while they cried
in another room. At least there were warm, loving arms around them when they
died. How could you ask for more?

~Kelly



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BADOLBILZ

Kelly, How beautiful it is of you to be so compassionate. Heidi

kbcdlovejo@... wrote:

>In a message dated 4/6/2003 11:36:29 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>ynxn96@... writes:
>
>
>>I completely understand what it means to have to make such a
>>heartwrenching decision because of money. Maybe a vet could be found
>>who wouldn't charge for a housecall. Maybe she could offer to clean his
>>house in exchange or wash his car for a month. If I could do it over
>>again, I would have washed toilets if it meant not seeing that terror in
>>her eyes before they closed for the last time.
>>
>>Sincerely, Heidi
>>
>>
>
>My vets have several options:
>
>You can deliver the animal to the clinic, say good-bye, and leave. They take
>care of the rest.
>
>You can take him to the clinic and hold him while they inject---like you did.
>
>You can have the vet come to your house, no extra charge (and my vets have
>never charged me for euthanasia at home or at the clinic), and put him down
>there. If you are a regular client, I think mine often feel uncomfortable
>charging you to "kill" your dog.
>
>I know they've charged some folks (who weren't regular clients), but the fee
>was paid a few days in advance so they didn't have to pay right afterwards
>when they were so miserable.
>
>OR you can ask them to call me and I will hold your pet in MY arms and cry
>like a baby while you sit in another room.
>
>As INCREDIBLY hard as it is, I prefer to BE there while they "go to sleep". I
>adored them for many years; I was their buddy---and I feel responsible for
>taking their lives, even it's for the best.
>
>I've held many friends' (and a few strangers') dogs and cats while they cried
>in another room. At least there were warm, loving arms around them when they
>died. How could you ask for more?
>
>~Kelly
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/7/2003 7:47:26 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

>
> As INCREDIBLY hard as it is, I prefer to BE there while they "go to sleep".
> I
> adored them for many years; I was their buddy---and I feel responsible for
> taking their lives, even it's for the best.
>

A year ago our cat Grendel developed stomach cancer, and had reached a place
where she was in a lot of pain. We have a wonderful vet who for years JUST
did housecalls. (She now has an office, but still does housecalls) She came
to the house and Grendel died very peacefully on the couch, surrounded by the
people who loved her. It was hard for us, especially Julian, as she was older
than him and it was like losing a sibling in a lot of ways. But we all felt
so much better that her last moments were so peaceful and love-filled.

We have two other cats, both older than Julian. Simone is over 20 years old,
and disabled quite a bit from thyroid problems. She can't jump onto the couch
anymore, so we've made a step with a laundry basket for her. We may need to
make a ramp for her at some point. But as long as she's happy and not
experiencing pain, we're happy to have her with us.

Kathryn


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]