responding to anti-child humor
[email protected]
This will be too long or boring for some of you, maybe, and that won't hurt
my feelings. It's an example of what might happen if someone DOES object to
e-mail humor. <g>
A friend from years ago sent me a list of jokes about children, just an
e-mail forward. I've known her for 25 years. She's very Mormon, but never
married. (So for her families and children are kind of a sore subject
already.) She adopted three Russian sisters, just a few years ago, and is
very strict with them, and used to write me complaining about how they
wouldn't work hard at school, or just liked boys, or whatever. She's a
theatre teacher, which I think is cool, but I've always known she was very
into disciplinarian attitudes. So she includes me on this long copylist,
two of the jokes are offensive to me and harmful to children (in my opinion)
so I responded to the list. Here are the first exchanges. I've put little
intros. The addresses on the list were several teachers (school system
addresses like the originator's) and one is her niece (young woman in her
20's) and the others I have no clue. But reasonable assumption is SLC crowd,
LDS, heavily professional educators.
***********************
My first response
***********************
This one's very sad to read for people who WILL sleep with their kids, or let
the kids come and sleep with them. And the one below is sad for other
reasons.
<<
One summer evening during a violent thunderstorm a mother was tucking
her son into bed. She was about to turn off the light when he asked with
a tremor in his voice, "Mommy, will you sleep with me tonight?"
The mother smiled and gave him a reassuring hug. "I can't dear," shig sissy."
_________________________________________________
We let our kids stay up. They can get water whenever they want, or we'll
bring it to them if they ask. We don't spank our kids at all, and they're
really sweet and wonderful, so this one is sad too:
-----------------
A small boy is sent to bed by his father.
Five minutes later....
"Da-ad...."
"What?
"I'm thirsty. Can you bring drink of water?"
"No. You had your chance. Lights out."
Five minutes later:
"Da-aaaad....."
"WHAT?"
"I'm THIRSTY. Can I have a drink of water??"
"I told you NO!" If you ask again, I'll have to spank you!!"
Five minutes later......
"Daaaa-aaaad....."
"WHAT!"
"When you come in to spank me, can you bring a drink of water?"
-----------------
Humor like this encourages parents to treat children coldly.
I wish more parents would say "not funny" so that fewer parents would think
treating children harshly is cute.
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com
nothing to sell
**********************************************************************
private mail, from my friend ( quoted) and my response. Because I know her,
I know this was a cold response. "I wouldn't want to offend you" is
sarcastic, for her. If she'd been actually sorry, she would have said "Gosh,
I didn't even think of it that way!"
*********************************************************************
In a message dated 3/27/03 8:08:08 AM, claire.spencer@...
writes:
<< Sorry. I won't send you any more stuff because I wouldn't want to offend
you. I
agree with your points. >>
I like some of the stuff you send.
Why can't you just decide not to send offensive stuff to anyone instead of
just taking me off the list?
******************************************************************************
******
to the whole group, just from someone else on the list; nothing recognizeable
to me
******************************************************************
Sandra,
I don't know you so I'm not pointing this at you in particular, but what
I think is more sad is the state our society is in because too many
tenderhearted people can't keep their perspective where child rearing is
concerned. They think we're all monsters who are incapable of moderating
ourselves where disciplining children is concerned. Our children are growing
up without a sense of proportion or respect for authority. If more adults
kept their perspective, stopped reading more into situations than exists, and
allowed parents to raise their own children as they saw fit, we'd have a lot
more happy children. Humor is one way we deal with life and our place in it,
with sometimes strange or uncomfortable situations. If more people retained
their sense of humor, then we'd have a lot fewer lawyers, a lot fewer
paranoid people, and a lot more joy in life.
I don't have children, I have dogs, but I can tell you my dogs are very
happy when they know who is boss, what their limits are, when they are doing
things well and when they are in trouble (and exactly what they did to get in
trouble), and what is expected of them when living in my home. I think our
children would benefit from many of the same rules for living, but so many
parents and teachers are afraid to place reasonable limits and consequences
on kids because of the overreactions of well-meaning people who took their
meddling too far.
Yes, there are people who are monsters and go too far, yes there are
people who deserve to be sued or lose their kids because they are bad people.
But to treat everyone as if they are that kind of, very much in the
minority, person is really very sad. Because of a minority of monsters,
we're creating a majority of out of control children who get themselves
killed because their parents were too afraid of the system to stop them from
getting out of control in the first place.
Whoa, where did THAT soap box come from...
_____________________________
[that little part above is all she quoted of me, but she did put in my
webpage again! <g> cool!]
************************************************************************
So I responded, to the whole group again:
************************************************************************
<< Whoa, where did THAT soap box come from...>>
From your beliefs!
<< I don't have children, I have dogs, >>
I do have children, so I have more stake in this than you do, right?
<< too many tenderhearted people can't keep their perspective where child
rearing is concerned. They think we're all monsters who are incapable of
moderating ourselves where disciplining children is concerned. >>
"We" who are monsters?
Rape jokes were very bad, and people make few of them now because women kept
saying "Stop, that's not funny."
Racist jokes are not NEARLY as common as they were when I was little, because
people said "Stop, this makes things worse."
If jokes about being mean to children are "funny," people will continue to be
mean to children, just because they're children, and just because other
adults laugh and thereby seem to encourage it.
<< But to treat everyone as if they are that kind of, very much in the
minority, person is really very sad. >>
This seems like saying that objecting to rape jokes treats everyone as a
rapist. Not at all.
<<Because of a minority of monsters, we're creating a majority of out of
control children who get themselves killed because their parents were too
afraid of the system to stop them from getting out of control in the first
place.>>
My kids aren't out of control. I used to swat, but I totally stopped. It's
stupid.
We have a very happy home full of humor, so suggesting I have no sense of
humor is way off mark. Here's a public confession of one of the last time I
swatted a child:
http://sandradodd.com/zeneverything
I was wrong. He was right.
Had I "shown him who was the boss," I would have been a monster at that
moment.
People should claim authority from being good and right, not from being
bigger or older and acting on impulse.
<<I don't have children, I have dogs, but I can tell you my dogs are very
happy when they know who is boss, what their limits are, when they are doing
things well and when they are in trouble (and exactly what they did to get in
trouble), and what is expected of them when living in my home. >>
I have a dog who has the freedom to leave the yard and doesn't.
My children live in the same house I do, but it's their home too. They're
not guests. Each is living in his or her own home.
Look into the eyes of these children if you think more spanking is good, or
forced bedtimes in the dark are funny, and see if you really can still think
that.
http://sandradodd.com/Kirby
http://sandradodd.com/Marty
http://sandradodd.com/Holly
Sandra
******************************************************************************
******************
private, from a school address matching the "hostesses" address
******************************************************************************
***
Who are you and why am I getting email from you?
SandraDodd@... wrote:
*************************************************************
My response. I guess she just deleted Claire's mail without reading it:
************************************************************************
Because you were on the copy list of something Claire Spencer sent. I
identified myself.
I don't know who you are, I just responded to the list which appeared in my
mailbox.
But you have written to me individually.
Sandra
************************************************************
another private one, not from a school address:
***********************************************************
I applaud you for being able to raise your children by methods that your feel
are more humane. I'm happy these means work for you. I'm sure they work for
many, much better than ruling by fear or pain. However, I don't think
disciplining children with contraint constitutes ruling by fear or pain, but
rather shows consequences to actions that the child understands very clearly.
I just don't think that "one size fits all" where raising kids are concerned,
nor do I think social services/govt. bureacracies should be telling everyone
how to do it. I also don't think calling people abusive for spanking or ins
isting on limits to be fair. I see our society as having taken a few steps
way too far toward regulating parents to the point that child rearing is
becoming disfunctional in the opposite direction, just because we are trying
to stop a few people who shouldn't be parents in the first place. Most of
the parents I know never need to spank their children, rarely need to yell at
them, are perfectly capable of placing limits and rules and pointing out what
is not acceptable without raising their voices, but also understand that
there must be consequences to stepping outside the boundaries, and those
consequences must be something the child understands and wants to avoid in
the future or else they don't work. To the opposite, I know parents whose
children are out of control, who have to go to pretty far extremes to manage
their children because they tried to use consequences that the child either
doesn't respect or believe, or purely doesn't comprehend as a child, to the
point where their children do not know how to interpret when they've gone too
far. I'm not trying to change your beliefs with all of this, it just hit a
chord.
I don't get your correlation between rapists, rape jokes, and the humor you
pointed out as bad. You saw that humor as containing abusive behavior in it,
while I did not. Yes, there are jokes that go too far and I'm very glad they
are discouraged. I just didn't happen to think those qualified since they
were poking fun at some very normal and functional behaviors (in mine, not
your, opinion).
******************************************************************************
******
I didn't respond to that.
This one below came without any other comment, and I don't know what "it" was
or who the writer was.
*********************************************************************
you did it again :-)
my feelings. It's an example of what might happen if someone DOES object to
e-mail humor. <g>
A friend from years ago sent me a list of jokes about children, just an
e-mail forward. I've known her for 25 years. She's very Mormon, but never
married. (So for her families and children are kind of a sore subject
already.) She adopted three Russian sisters, just a few years ago, and is
very strict with them, and used to write me complaining about how they
wouldn't work hard at school, or just liked boys, or whatever. She's a
theatre teacher, which I think is cool, but I've always known she was very
into disciplinarian attitudes. So she includes me on this long copylist,
two of the jokes are offensive to me and harmful to children (in my opinion)
so I responded to the list. Here are the first exchanges. I've put little
intros. The addresses on the list were several teachers (school system
addresses like the originator's) and one is her niece (young woman in her
20's) and the others I have no clue. But reasonable assumption is SLC crowd,
LDS, heavily professional educators.
***********************
My first response
***********************
This one's very sad to read for people who WILL sleep with their kids, or let
the kids come and sleep with them. And the one below is sad for other
reasons.
<<
One summer evening during a violent thunderstorm a mother was tucking
her son into bed. She was about to turn off the light when he asked with
a tremor in his voice, "Mommy, will you sleep with me tonight?"
The mother smiled and gave him a reassuring hug. "I can't dear," shig sissy."
_________________________________________________
We let our kids stay up. They can get water whenever they want, or we'll
bring it to them if they ask. We don't spank our kids at all, and they're
really sweet and wonderful, so this one is sad too:
-----------------
A small boy is sent to bed by his father.
Five minutes later....
"Da-ad...."
"What?
"I'm thirsty. Can you bring drink of water?"
"No. You had your chance. Lights out."
Five minutes later:
"Da-aaaad....."
"WHAT?"
"I'm THIRSTY. Can I have a drink of water??"
"I told you NO!" If you ask again, I'll have to spank you!!"
Five minutes later......
"Daaaa-aaaad....."
"WHAT!"
"When you come in to spank me, can you bring a drink of water?"
-----------------
Humor like this encourages parents to treat children coldly.
I wish more parents would say "not funny" so that fewer parents would think
treating children harshly is cute.
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com
nothing to sell
**********************************************************************
private mail, from my friend ( quoted) and my response. Because I know her,
I know this was a cold response. "I wouldn't want to offend you" is
sarcastic, for her. If she'd been actually sorry, she would have said "Gosh,
I didn't even think of it that way!"
*********************************************************************
In a message dated 3/27/03 8:08:08 AM, claire.spencer@...
writes:
<< Sorry. I won't send you any more stuff because I wouldn't want to offend
you. I
agree with your points. >>
I like some of the stuff you send.
Why can't you just decide not to send offensive stuff to anyone instead of
just taking me off the list?
******************************************************************************
******
to the whole group, just from someone else on the list; nothing recognizeable
to me
******************************************************************
Sandra,
I don't know you so I'm not pointing this at you in particular, but what
I think is more sad is the state our society is in because too many
tenderhearted people can't keep their perspective where child rearing is
concerned. They think we're all monsters who are incapable of moderating
ourselves where disciplining children is concerned. Our children are growing
up without a sense of proportion or respect for authority. If more adults
kept their perspective, stopped reading more into situations than exists, and
allowed parents to raise their own children as they saw fit, we'd have a lot
more happy children. Humor is one way we deal with life and our place in it,
with sometimes strange or uncomfortable situations. If more people retained
their sense of humor, then we'd have a lot fewer lawyers, a lot fewer
paranoid people, and a lot more joy in life.
I don't have children, I have dogs, but I can tell you my dogs are very
happy when they know who is boss, what their limits are, when they are doing
things well and when they are in trouble (and exactly what they did to get in
trouble), and what is expected of them when living in my home. I think our
children would benefit from many of the same rules for living, but so many
parents and teachers are afraid to place reasonable limits and consequences
on kids because of the overreactions of well-meaning people who took their
meddling too far.
Yes, there are people who are monsters and go too far, yes there are
people who deserve to be sued or lose their kids because they are bad people.
But to treat everyone as if they are that kind of, very much in the
minority, person is really very sad. Because of a minority of monsters,
we're creating a majority of out of control children who get themselves
killed because their parents were too afraid of the system to stop them from
getting out of control in the first place.
Whoa, where did THAT soap box come from...
_____________________________
> Humor like this encourages parents to treat children coldly.***************************************************************************
>
> I wish more parents would say "not funny" so that fewer parents would think
> treating children harshly is cute.
>
> Sandra
> http://sandradodd.com
> nothing to sell
[that little part above is all she quoted of me, but she did put in my
webpage again! <g> cool!]
************************************************************************
So I responded, to the whole group again:
************************************************************************
<< Whoa, where did THAT soap box come from...>>
From your beliefs!
<< I don't have children, I have dogs, >>
I do have children, so I have more stake in this than you do, right?
<< too many tenderhearted people can't keep their perspective where child
rearing is concerned. They think we're all monsters who are incapable of
moderating ourselves where disciplining children is concerned. >>
"We" who are monsters?
Rape jokes were very bad, and people make few of them now because women kept
saying "Stop, that's not funny."
Racist jokes are not NEARLY as common as they were when I was little, because
people said "Stop, this makes things worse."
If jokes about being mean to children are "funny," people will continue to be
mean to children, just because they're children, and just because other
adults laugh and thereby seem to encourage it.
<< But to treat everyone as if they are that kind of, very much in the
minority, person is really very sad. >>
This seems like saying that objecting to rape jokes treats everyone as a
rapist. Not at all.
<<Because of a minority of monsters, we're creating a majority of out of
control children who get themselves killed because their parents were too
afraid of the system to stop them from getting out of control in the first
place.>>
My kids aren't out of control. I used to swat, but I totally stopped. It's
stupid.
We have a very happy home full of humor, so suggesting I have no sense of
humor is way off mark. Here's a public confession of one of the last time I
swatted a child:
http://sandradodd.com/zeneverything
I was wrong. He was right.
Had I "shown him who was the boss," I would have been a monster at that
moment.
People should claim authority from being good and right, not from being
bigger or older and acting on impulse.
<<I don't have children, I have dogs, but I can tell you my dogs are very
happy when they know who is boss, what their limits are, when they are doing
things well and when they are in trouble (and exactly what they did to get in
trouble), and what is expected of them when living in my home. >>
I have a dog who has the freedom to leave the yard and doesn't.
My children live in the same house I do, but it's their home too. They're
not guests. Each is living in his or her own home.
Look into the eyes of these children if you think more spanking is good, or
forced bedtimes in the dark are funny, and see if you really can still think
that.
http://sandradodd.com/Kirby
http://sandradodd.com/Marty
http://sandradodd.com/Holly
Sandra
******************************************************************************
******************
private, from a school address matching the "hostesses" address
******************************************************************************
***
Who are you and why am I getting email from you?
SandraDodd@... wrote:
*************************************************************
My response. I guess she just deleted Claire's mail without reading it:
************************************************************************
Because you were on the copy list of something Claire Spencer sent. I
identified myself.
I don't know who you are, I just responded to the list which appeared in my
mailbox.
But you have written to me individually.
Sandra
************************************************************
another private one, not from a school address:
***********************************************************
I applaud you for being able to raise your children by methods that your feel
are more humane. I'm happy these means work for you. I'm sure they work for
many, much better than ruling by fear or pain. However, I don't think
disciplining children with contraint constitutes ruling by fear or pain, but
rather shows consequences to actions that the child understands very clearly.
I just don't think that "one size fits all" where raising kids are concerned,
nor do I think social services/govt. bureacracies should be telling everyone
how to do it. I also don't think calling people abusive for spanking or ins
isting on limits to be fair. I see our society as having taken a few steps
way too far toward regulating parents to the point that child rearing is
becoming disfunctional in the opposite direction, just because we are trying
to stop a few people who shouldn't be parents in the first place. Most of
the parents I know never need to spank their children, rarely need to yell at
them, are perfectly capable of placing limits and rules and pointing out what
is not acceptable without raising their voices, but also understand that
there must be consequences to stepping outside the boundaries, and those
consequences must be something the child understands and wants to avoid in
the future or else they don't work. To the opposite, I know parents whose
children are out of control, who have to go to pretty far extremes to manage
their children because they tried to use consequences that the child either
doesn't respect or believe, or purely doesn't comprehend as a child, to the
point where their children do not know how to interpret when they've gone too
far. I'm not trying to change your beliefs with all of this, it just hit a
chord.
I don't get your correlation between rapists, rape jokes, and the humor you
pointed out as bad. You saw that humor as containing abusive behavior in it,
while I did not. Yes, there are jokes that go too far and I'm very glad they
are discouraged. I just didn't happen to think those qualified since they
were poking fun at some very normal and functional behaviors (in mine, not
your, opinion).
******************************************************************************
******
I didn't respond to that.
This one below came without any other comment, and I don't know what "it" was
or who the writer was.
*********************************************************************
you did it again :-)
Pam Hartley
I'm reading through the whole thing, but just a middle-of-thought response
for now:
We most value qualities in dogs that we should NOT value (or strive for) in
our children: unquestioning obedience and everlasting dependence on our
interpreting the world for them.
Dog training and child rearing should not be compared.
Pam, dog trainer
----------
for now:
We most value qualities in dogs that we should NOT value (or strive for) in
our children: unquestioning obedience and everlasting dependence on our
interpreting the world for them.
Dog training and child rearing should not be compared.
Pam, dog trainer
----------
>From: SandraDodd@...
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [AlwaysLearning] responding to anti-child humor
>Date: Thu, Mar 27, 2003, 2:33 PM
>
> I don't have children, I have dogs, but I can tell you my dogs are very
> happy when they know who is boss, what their limits are, when they are doing
> things well and when they are in trouble (and exactly what they did to get in
> trouble), and what is expected of them when living in my home.
[email protected]
Sandra,
My first reaction to the jokes, before I read your reply, was that people
used to make jokes along those lines about women and people of different
races and nationalities. When you speak out against it enough, it stops and
children are people too. You said way more and I think you made a bunch of
good points.
I have said a couple of things to my best friend. She often will forward
jokes and not think about what she is forwarding. Her response is always "I
was just forwarding it." I always say that when you forward something you
are suggesting that it is worth reading and that you agree or condone it.
It is sooooo sad that people still regard children as property. Something to
be seen and not heard, follow commands without question. How will anyone
learn to think for themselves if they are never given a chance?
Anyway, so much more on this subject but you were very straight forward with
your response, as usual, and very good at expressing what some of us wish we
could.
Thanks
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My first reaction to the jokes, before I read your reply, was that people
used to make jokes along those lines about women and people of different
races and nationalities. When you speak out against it enough, it stops and
children are people too. You said way more and I think you made a bunch of
good points.
I have said a couple of things to my best friend. She often will forward
jokes and not think about what she is forwarding. Her response is always "I
was just forwarding it." I always say that when you forward something you
are suggesting that it is worth reading and that you agree or condone it.
It is sooooo sad that people still regard children as property. Something to
be seen and not heard, follow commands without question. How will anyone
learn to think for themselves if they are never given a chance?
Anyway, so much more on this subject but you were very straight forward with
your response, as usual, and very good at expressing what some of us wish we
could.
Thanks
Pam G.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanna514
<<<<A small boy is sent to bed by his father.
Five minutes later....
"Da-ad...."
"What?
"I'm thirsty. Can you bring drink of water?"
"No. You had your chance. Lights out."
Five minutes later:
"Da-aaaad....."
"WHAT?"
"I'm THIRSTY. Can I have a drink of water??"
"I told you NO!" If you ask again, I'll have to spank you!!"
Five minutes later......
"Daaaa-aaaad....."
"WHAT!"
"When you come in to spank me, can you bring a drink of water?"
-----------------
Humor like this encourages parents to treat children coldly.>>>>
I agree with your point that joking about being mean to kids should
not be acceptable, and the first one and many others I've heard, I
find saddness in, not humor. I did laugh at this one though,
because I think it points to the ridiculousness of the father in
denying his child a basic need. In the end, the child is the smart
one in relaying just how important his need was, and not just a power
stuggle game. It says to me that parents need to trust their kids.
I often get reminded of when I'm being ridiculous by my kids. It
usually sets me straight and makes me laugh at myself and reminds me
that I live with some really wise people.
Joanna
Five minutes later....
"Da-ad...."
"What?
"I'm thirsty. Can you bring drink of water?"
"No. You had your chance. Lights out."
Five minutes later:
"Da-aaaad....."
"WHAT?"
"I'm THIRSTY. Can I have a drink of water??"
"I told you NO!" If you ask again, I'll have to spank you!!"
Five minutes later......
"Daaaa-aaaad....."
"WHAT!"
"When you come in to spank me, can you bring a drink of water?"
-----------------
Humor like this encourages parents to treat children coldly.>>>>
I agree with your point that joking about being mean to kids should
not be acceptable, and the first one and many others I've heard, I
find saddness in, not humor. I did laugh at this one though,
because I think it points to the ridiculousness of the father in
denying his child a basic need. In the end, the child is the smart
one in relaying just how important his need was, and not just a power
stuggle game. It says to me that parents need to trust their kids.
I often get reminded of when I'm being ridiculous by my kids. It
usually sets me straight and makes me laugh at myself and reminds me
that I live with some really wise people.
Joanna
Angie
Yikes! Anyone who compares raising children to keeping dogs
definitely should NOT be a mother....Hope she never kids...
REX!!! SIT!!!!
Good Boy! ;)
sicko...
angie
--- In [email protected], Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...>
wrote:
definitely should NOT be a mother....Hope she never kids...
REX!!! SIT!!!!
Good Boy! ;)
sicko...
angie
--- In [email protected], Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...>
wrote:
> I'm reading through the whole thing, but just a middle-of-thoughtresponse
> for now:for) in
>
> We most value qualities in dogs that we should NOT value (or strive
> our children: unquestioning obedience and everlasting dependence onour
> interpreting the world for them.are very
>
> Dog training and child rearing should not be compared.
>
> Pam, dog trainer
>
> ----------
> >From: SandraDodd@a...
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: [AlwaysLearning] responding to anti-child humor
> >Date: Thu, Mar 27, 2003, 2:33 PM
> >
>
> > I don't have children, I have dogs, but I can tell you my dogs
> > happy when they know who is boss, what their limits are, whenthey are doing
> > things well and when they are in trouble (and exactly what theydid to get in
> > trouble), and what is expected of them when living in my home.
vze3pc6x
Hi. My name is Crystal. I have been lurking here for a few months now
because I think that at this point in my unschooling I need to listen more
than I speak. I wanted to give my thoughts on this subject, though.
I just got the joke in my email yesterday from my sister about the child who
learned in school that he had rights. I remembered the updated one that I
saw here so I sent that one back with a polite little note saying that I
thought it was disrespectful and I liked the new one better. I also sent
the new version to everyone on her email list along with the note I wrote on
how I thought it was disrespectful to kids. She wrote back screaming to me
in her email about "how dare any kid threaten their parent with calling CPS"
and that if you didn't take control your kids will end up pregnant or in
jail. She titled it, "Don't Mess with Mom". I haven't responded to that
but so many people feel that way. I think that most people don't look at
the real message being sent. It's a joke, they laugh, they pass it on.
This is not a joke, though. It is a message to kids that "I am the parent,
I am stronger".
I don't send all the jokes I get to everyone on my email list. I don't send
sexual jokes to anyone under 25. I don't send male bashing jokes to my sons
or brothers unless I want to direct it at them, so I think that when people
send these disrespectful jokes to parents it's because they don't believe
there is anything wrong with being disrespectful.
I saw the same type of message in a commercial on TV today being tooted as
good parenting. It was telling parents to snoop into their teenager's
things to keep them from doing drugs. It said something to the effects that
your kids would be mad at you and may even hate you, but they would thank
you later and that if you love them, you will do it. If TV is telling you
that you have to disrespect your children, then how can any good parent go
against that?
I haven't been unschooling long enough to say "look at how my kids turned
out", but my thoughts to this is that if your kids feel like you are
partners in their life, then they won't treat you like you are an adversary.
You will have no need to snoop and they will have no need to call CPS. I've
said this to people before and I've gotten responses like, "you have to be
the parent, not their friend".
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Crystal
because I think that at this point in my unschooling I need to listen more
than I speak. I wanted to give my thoughts on this subject, though.
I just got the joke in my email yesterday from my sister about the child who
learned in school that he had rights. I remembered the updated one that I
saw here so I sent that one back with a polite little note saying that I
thought it was disrespectful and I liked the new one better. I also sent
the new version to everyone on her email list along with the note I wrote on
how I thought it was disrespectful to kids. She wrote back screaming to me
in her email about "how dare any kid threaten their parent with calling CPS"
and that if you didn't take control your kids will end up pregnant or in
jail. She titled it, "Don't Mess with Mom". I haven't responded to that
but so many people feel that way. I think that most people don't look at
the real message being sent. It's a joke, they laugh, they pass it on.
This is not a joke, though. It is a message to kids that "I am the parent,
I am stronger".
I don't send all the jokes I get to everyone on my email list. I don't send
sexual jokes to anyone under 25. I don't send male bashing jokes to my sons
or brothers unless I want to direct it at them, so I think that when people
send these disrespectful jokes to parents it's because they don't believe
there is anything wrong with being disrespectful.
I saw the same type of message in a commercial on TV today being tooted as
good parenting. It was telling parents to snoop into their teenager's
things to keep them from doing drugs. It said something to the effects that
your kids would be mad at you and may even hate you, but they would thank
you later and that if you love them, you will do it. If TV is telling you
that you have to disrespect your children, then how can any good parent go
against that?
I haven't been unschooling long enough to say "look at how my kids turned
out", but my thoughts to this is that if your kids feel like you are
partners in their life, then they won't treat you like you are an adversary.
You will have no need to snoop and they will have no need to call CPS. I've
said this to people before and I've gotten responses like, "you have to be
the parent, not their friend".
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Crystal
Jon and Rue Kream
"if your kids feel like you are partners in their life, then they won't
treat you like you are an adversary"
Most people think of the parent/child relationship as an adversarial
one. Any time I've pointed out that we don't live that way, I've been
told that acting in partership with your kids just can't work.
Interesting, because it seems to be 'working' just fine at our house.
Even when confronted with direct evidence (my kids) many people will
still deny that it is possible. I guess they wouldn't want to shake
their brains up a bit by thinking any new thoughts. ~Rue
treat you like you are an adversary"
Most people think of the parent/child relationship as an adversarial
one. Any time I've pointed out that we don't live that way, I've been
told that acting in partership with your kids just can't work.
Interesting, because it seems to be 'working' just fine at our house.
Even when confronted with direct evidence (my kids) many people will
still deny that it is possible. I guess they wouldn't want to shake
their brains up a bit by thinking any new thoughts. ~Rue
[email protected]
On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:23:26 -0500 "vze3pc6x" <vze3pc6x@...>
writes:
We generally joke about stuff like that - I'll say something like, "Damn,
I think you like me, I must be a bad parent - quick, get mad at me so
I'll know I'm a good mom."
Rain made a new friend at rehearsals last week, also honmeschooled.
Yesterday I was driving them both to the theater and the friend was
talking about how her parents always go on and on about the importance of
proper nutrition (I bought her a kiwi snow bubble with tapioca, which
doesn't seem too nutritious but neither of us mentioned it). I asked if
her parents were always trying to shove protein into her when she has a
meltdown, and she said no, and added that if she had a meltdown her
parents would make her stay in her room for 3 hours and then go pick up
dog poop from the back yard.
I wasn't quite sure what to say...
Dar
writes:
> I saw the same type of message in a commercial on TV today beingtooted as
> good parenting. It was telling parents to snoop into their teenager'sthey would
> things to keep them from doing drugs. It said something to the
> effects that your kids would be mad at you and may even hate you, but
> thank you later and that if you love them, you will do it.We've seen that commercial. It's definitely disturbing.
We generally joke about stuff like that - I'll say something like, "Damn,
I think you like me, I must be a bad parent - quick, get mad at me so
I'll know I'm a good mom."
Rain made a new friend at rehearsals last week, also honmeschooled.
Yesterday I was driving them both to the theater and the friend was
talking about how her parents always go on and on about the importance of
proper nutrition (I bought her a kiwi snow bubble with tapioca, which
doesn't seem too nutritious but neither of us mentioned it). I asked if
her parents were always trying to shove protein into her when she has a
meltdown, and she said no, and added that if she had a meltdown her
parents would make her stay in her room for 3 hours and then go pick up
dog poop from the back yard.
I wasn't quite sure what to say...
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/28/2003 6:02:40 PM Eastern Standard Time,
freeform@... writes:
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freeform@... writes:
> and added that if she had a meltdown herIt's a plot---they're teaching her to NOT want a dog.
> parents would make her stay in her room for 3 hours and then go pick up
> dog poop from the back yard.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/28/2003 5:02:39 PM Central Standard Time,
freeform@... writes:
melt down and go grab some protein as a preventative? Three hours?
How's Rain's arm, by the way?
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freeform@... writes:
> I wasn't quite sure what to say...Wow, Dar. Maybe you could tell her to recognize her own signs of impending
melt down and go grab some protein as a preventative? Three hours?
How's Rain's arm, by the way?
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Stephanie Elms
> "if your kids feel like you are partners in their life, thenThank you SO much for writing this! I hate when people say that I have
> they won't
> treat you like you are an adversary"
>
> Most people think of the parent/child relationship as an adversarial
> one. Any time I've pointed out that we don't live that way, I've been
> told that acting in partership with your kids just can't work.
> Interesting, because it seems to be 'working' just fine at our house.
> Even when confronted with direct evidence (my kids) many people will
> still deny that it is possible. I guess they wouldn't want to shake
> their brains up a bit by thinking any new thoughts. ~Rue
"to be the parent". My dad one time made a comment after Jason went to
get a soda (we had just given up restricting sweets) about remembering
who the parent was...
It is hard because my kids are only 6 and 3 so I can't say "I told you so".
And it is hard because this is something that I have felt in my heart since
the boys were born but found no one that agreed with me. It is only in the
last 6 months or so that I have really felt comfortable going with my heart
and not feeling like I have to constantly "teach them lessons" and "nip things
in the bud". And we are slowly getting into that grove that I have read about
other unschoolers having. I am not perfectly there yet, but seeing so much
progress and I love it. It is really hard explaining how I feel to others though.
They just look at me like I am nuts.
I am so glad to have folks here tell me that my heart is not wrong and that I am not
nuts. Folks with older kids who say, yes it can and does work (too many times I get that
condescending "just wait until your kids are older"). I have some friends with teens
and I would hate to have the same relationship they have...but they think they have
no choice but to ground and restrict and lay down the law. So sad...
I do want to be my kids friend and their advisor and their confidante, not their
jailer...
Stephanie E. (who mostly lurks here)
Jon and Rue Kream
" My dad one time made a comment after Jason went to get a soda (we had
just given up restricting sweets) about remembering
who the parent was..."
There are times when I try to remember who the parent is. When Dagny
and I are both cranky, and feeling bickery, I try to remember that I'm
the parent, and I have more of a reserve of patience than she does. I'm
the parent, so I can step back and change how I'm acting more easily
than she can. When Rowan wants me to get up for the hundreth time to
get her something in the kitchen, I remember that I'm the parent, and
she can't do everything she wants to without asking for help. I can
make her feel good or bad about that. I'm the parent, and I can choose
to happily help her when she wants me to. When either one of them wants
me to drop what I'm doing to do something with her, I remember that I'm
the parent of two kids who won't be kids forever. I remember that I
don't want to miss one minute of being their parent.
And don't worry, you get used to people looking at you like you're nuts
:0). ~Rue
just given up restricting sweets) about remembering
who the parent was..."
There are times when I try to remember who the parent is. When Dagny
and I are both cranky, and feeling bickery, I try to remember that I'm
the parent, and I have more of a reserve of patience than she does. I'm
the parent, so I can step back and change how I'm acting more easily
than she can. When Rowan wants me to get up for the hundreth time to
get her something in the kitchen, I remember that I'm the parent, and
she can't do everything she wants to without asking for help. I can
make her feel good or bad about that. I'm the parent, and I can choose
to happily help her when she wants me to. When either one of them wants
me to drop what I'm doing to do something with her, I remember that I'm
the parent of two kids who won't be kids forever. I remember that I
don't want to miss one minute of being their parent.
And don't worry, you get used to people looking at you like you're nuts
:0). ~Rue
Jon and Rue Kream
I do know how to spell hundredth, really :0).
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon and Rue Kream [mailto:skreams@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 11:41 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: responding to anti-child humor
" My dad one time made a comment after Jason went to get a soda (we had
just given up restricting sweets) about remembering
who the parent was..."
There are times when I try to remember who the parent is. When Dagny
and I are both cranky, and feeling bickery, I try to remember that I'm
the parent, and I have more of a reserve of patience than she does. I'm
the parent, so I can step back and change how I'm acting more easily
than she can. When Rowan wants me to get up for the hundreth time to
get her something in the kitchen, I remember that I'm the parent, and
she can't do everything she wants to without asking for help. I can
make her feel good or bad about that. I'm the parent, and I can choose
to happily help her when she wants me to. When either one of them wants
me to drop what I'm doing to do something with her, I remember that I'm
the parent of two kids who won't be kids forever. I remember that I
don't want to miss one minute of being their parent.
And don't worry, you get used to people looking at you like you're nuts
:0). ~Rue
"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon and Rue Kream [mailto:skreams@...]
Sent: Saturday, March 29, 2003 11:41 AM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: [AlwaysLearning] Re: responding to anti-child humor
" My dad one time made a comment after Jason went to get a soda (we had
just given up restricting sweets) about remembering
who the parent was..."
There are times when I try to remember who the parent is. When Dagny
and I are both cranky, and feeling bickery, I try to remember that I'm
the parent, and I have more of a reserve of patience than she does. I'm
the parent, so I can step back and change how I'm acting more easily
than she can. When Rowan wants me to get up for the hundreth time to
get her something in the kitchen, I remember that I'm the parent, and
she can't do everything she wants to without asking for help. I can
make her feel good or bad about that. I'm the parent, and I can choose
to happily help her when she wants me to. When either one of them wants
me to drop what I'm doing to do something with her, I remember that I'm
the parent of two kids who won't be kids forever. I remember that I
don't want to miss one minute of being their parent.
And don't worry, you get used to people looking at you like you're nuts
:0). ~Rue
[email protected]
On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 18:13:39 EST ejcrewe@... writes:
Rain does, or did, and so did one of her close friends, so they just come
to mind for me whenever anyone talks about nutrition.Actually, though,
Rain can go a lot longer now that she's older. The last meltdown she had
was after sleeping over (and probably not sleeping much) at a friend's
house and eating nothing but a bowl of cereal in the morning and popcorn
in the afternoon (and she's in the middle of a growth spurt), and then
tearing her brand new jeans on a bike on the way home, at 7 or so... so
that was sort of understandable, although I didn't feel so understanding
when we were standing in front of her friend's quite suburban house and
she was screaming at me that she wanted to be driven to the Gap corporate
headquarters *right then* so she could insist that they give her a
replacement pair of jeans, and then she punched me when I was not upset
enough about the ripped jeans.
But that's the first meltdown like that in a year or so, and when she was
5 and 6 it was more like twice a week, so it's okay. And after we had a
pumpkin smash with a protein boost at Jamba Juice, Rain calmed down and
decided the jeans could be cut-offs, since it was getting warmer outside.
And I asked her what she had eaten that day and left it at that, because
my pushing the protein thing had been an issue in the past... this time I
just ordered the pumpkin smash and stuck it in her cup holder...and she
apologized to me, which is nice.
I don't know about this new friend - Rain only met her a couple of weeks
ago and I only met the family this week. She seemed happy and bubbly and
the family interactions were pleasant and supportive. I don't know how
long they've homeschooled - they did mention school. So perhaps the 3
hours was some theatrical hyperbole, or perhaps this was a one-time thing
- Rain still tells people about the time I got really mad when she was 5
and threw a half-dozen apples against a wall - or perhaps her parents are
transitioning from one kind of living to another. They did go to the HSC
conference last year, or at least they had last year's bag (I have the
bag too but didn't go to the conference, so perhaps one shouldn't jump to
conclusions).
guy in 3 months and he'll be able to tell then if it's going to
straighten on it's own. How's your leg?
Oh, and while I'm babbling on, we got a new dog, and I don't think I
talked about him here. :) We dogsat for a friend's black lab about 6
weeks ago - we've been his regular replacement people for years - and
after one evening of being clingy and nervous Nana really seemed to enjoy
his company. They had great walks together, sniffing stuff, and she
seemed to take her cues from him a lot, on when to lie down and when to
go out and stuff. She seemed more comfortable... and we actually went to
visit them in Alameda last weekend and she went right up to him, sat in
front of him, and wagged her tail, which is just not typical Nana
behavior.
So, we started poking around online and found a chocolate lab (Rain's
Dream Breed) marked Urgent, and acquired Keith. He's an old dog, at least
10, who was found as a stray in Redding and then spent a year in some
sort of shelter where he was basically locked up in a cement cage and
ignored, until recently the shelter was closed down and he was rescued.
He chewed all the fur from his tail out of boredom while he was there,
and his coat is dull and his teeth are bad, but he's still a sweet dog,
very snuggly, and we're getting him back on track. Nana doesn't like him
quite as much as Mack - he tends to get possessive of us and growls when
we pet her, so we're trying to make sure he gets treats or petting
whenever we pet her, to create some positive links - but they have great
fun on walks together, it's spring on the farm and they sniff all the
same things and run shoulder to shoulder. And Nana seems to follow his
leadon stuff, too - she used to wait until the lights were out at night
to eat dinner, but since Keith arrived she starts eating as soon as he
does, which for him (being a lab) is right about when the bowl hits the
floor.
So, that's what we're up to, more or less...
Dar
> In a message dated 3/28/2003 5:02:39 PM Central Standard Time,impending
> freeform@... writes:
>
>
> > I wasn't quite sure what to say...
>
> Wow, Dar. Maybe you could tell her to recognize her own signs of
> melt down and go grab some protein as a preventative? Three hours?I didn't get the impression that this other girl had protein issues -
Rain does, or did, and so did one of her close friends, so they just come
to mind for me whenever anyone talks about nutrition.Actually, though,
Rain can go a lot longer now that she's older. The last meltdown she had
was after sleeping over (and probably not sleeping much) at a friend's
house and eating nothing but a bowl of cereal in the morning and popcorn
in the afternoon (and she's in the middle of a growth spurt), and then
tearing her brand new jeans on a bike on the way home, at 7 or so... so
that was sort of understandable, although I didn't feel so understanding
when we were standing in front of her friend's quite suburban house and
she was screaming at me that she wanted to be driven to the Gap corporate
headquarters *right then* so she could insist that they give her a
replacement pair of jeans, and then she punched me when I was not upset
enough about the ripped jeans.
But that's the first meltdown like that in a year or so, and when she was
5 and 6 it was more like twice a week, so it's okay. And after we had a
pumpkin smash with a protein boost at Jamba Juice, Rain calmed down and
decided the jeans could be cut-offs, since it was getting warmer outside.
And I asked her what she had eaten that day and left it at that, because
my pushing the protein thing had been an issue in the past... this time I
just ordered the pumpkin smash and stuck it in her cup holder...and she
apologized to me, which is nice.
I don't know about this new friend - Rain only met her a couple of weeks
ago and I only met the family this week. She seemed happy and bubbly and
the family interactions were pleasant and supportive. I don't know how
long they've homeschooled - they did mention school. So perhaps the 3
hours was some theatrical hyperbole, or perhaps this was a one-time thing
- Rain still tells people about the time I got really mad when she was 5
and threw a half-dozen apples against a wall - or perhaps her parents are
transitioning from one kind of living to another. They did go to the HSC
conference last year, or at least they had last year's bag (I have the
bag too but didn't go to the conference, so perhaps one shouldn't jump to
conclusions).
> How's Rain's arm, by the way?Fully functional but noticeably crooked, she goes back to the orthopedic
>
guy in 3 months and he'll be able to tell then if it's going to
straighten on it's own. How's your leg?
Oh, and while I'm babbling on, we got a new dog, and I don't think I
talked about him here. :) We dogsat for a friend's black lab about 6
weeks ago - we've been his regular replacement people for years - and
after one evening of being clingy and nervous Nana really seemed to enjoy
his company. They had great walks together, sniffing stuff, and she
seemed to take her cues from him a lot, on when to lie down and when to
go out and stuff. She seemed more comfortable... and we actually went to
visit them in Alameda last weekend and she went right up to him, sat in
front of him, and wagged her tail, which is just not typical Nana
behavior.
So, we started poking around online and found a chocolate lab (Rain's
Dream Breed) marked Urgent, and acquired Keith. He's an old dog, at least
10, who was found as a stray in Redding and then spent a year in some
sort of shelter where he was basically locked up in a cement cage and
ignored, until recently the shelter was closed down and he was rescued.
He chewed all the fur from his tail out of boredom while he was there,
and his coat is dull and his teeth are bad, but he's still a sweet dog,
very snuggly, and we're getting him back on track. Nana doesn't like him
quite as much as Mack - he tends to get possessive of us and growls when
we pet her, so we're trying to make sure he gets treats or petting
whenever we pet her, to create some positive links - but they have great
fun on walks together, it's spring on the farm and they sniff all the
same things and run shoulder to shoulder. And Nana seems to follow his
leadon stuff, too - she used to wait until the lights were out at night
to eat dinner, but since Keith arrived she starts eating as soon as he
does, which for him (being a lab) is right about when the bowl hits the
floor.
So, that's what we're up to, more or less...
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/29/03 9:48:55 AM, stephanie.elms@...
writes:
<< It is hard because my kids are only 6 and 3 so I can't say "I told you so".
And it is hard because this is something that I have felt in my heart since
the boys were born but found no one that agreed with me. >>
Maybe offer the person paper and an envelope to write down their dire
predictions and date them. Pick some date in the future, like when the kid
is 12 (let them pick) and have them write whatever it is. Seal it up and put
it in a mutually safe place, to be opened at that time, and if they're right,
they get to say "I TOLD YOU SO."
If they don't want to bother to put it in writing, they're just bitching.
But once you make the ofer, they will really think about it. Throw a money
bet on it if they're inclined. <g>
Sandra
writes:
<< It is hard because my kids are only 6 and 3 so I can't say "I told you so".
And it is hard because this is something that I have felt in my heart since
the boys were born but found no one that agreed with me. >>
Maybe offer the person paper and an envelope to write down their dire
predictions and date them. Pick some date in the future, like when the kid
is 12 (let them pick) and have them write whatever it is. Seal it up and put
it in a mutually safe place, to be opened at that time, and if they're right,
they get to say "I TOLD YOU SO."
If they don't want to bother to put it in writing, they're just bitching.
But once you make the ofer, they will really think about it. Throw a money
bet on it if they're inclined. <g>
Sandra
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
>nuts. Folks with older kids who say, yes it can and does work (too manyJust get a dreamy look on your face and say, "Yeah, it's gonna be
>times I get that
>condescending "just wait until your kids are older").
GREAT." and wander away from them!
They usually don't know *what* to say to that.
HeidiWD
Stephanie Elms
> >nuts. Folks with older kids who say, yes it can and doesHeHeHe. I like this one too....I do think that it is sad that people are not
> work (too many
> >times I get that
> >condescending "just wait until your kids are older").
>
> Just get a dreamy look on your face and say, "Yeah, it's gonna be
> GREAT." and wander away from them!
looking forward to their kids growing up. I know that my kids just keep
getting better and better everyday...
Stephanie E.
Stephanie Elms
> Maybe offer the person paper and an envelope to write down their direOhh! I like this one! I have done this a bit with my hubby (mostly with the giving
> predictions and date them. Pick some date in the future,
> like when the kid
> is 12 (let them pick) and have them write whatever it is.
> Seal it up and put
> it in a mutually safe place, to be opened at that time, and
> if they're right,
> they get to say "I TOLD YOU SO."
up food controls) but I might have to use this tact a bit more often...
Stephanie E.
Stephanie Elms
> There are times when I try to remember who the parent is. When DagnyWow. Rue! That is so wonderful. I *LOVE* this way of looking at it. I am going to be
> and I are both cranky, and feeling bickery, I try to remember that I'm
> the parent, and I have more of a reserve of patience than she
> does. I'm
> the parent, so I can step back and change how I'm acting more easily
> than she can. When Rowan wants me to get up for the hundreth time to
> get her something in the kitchen, I remember that I'm the parent, and
> she can't do everything she wants to without asking for help. I can
> make her feel good or bad about that. I'm the parent, and I
> can choose
> to happily help her when she wants me to. When either one of
> them wants
> me to drop what I'm doing to do something with her, I
> remember that I'm
> the parent of two kids who won't be kids forever. I remember that I
> don't want to miss one minute of being their parent.
>
> And don't worry, you get used to people looking at you like
> you're nuts
> :0). ~Rue
re-reading this one for quite awhile...
And yes, I am getting used to people looking at me like I am nuts...slowly but surely.
So much of what I do makes so much sense to me, but others just don't get it...sleeping
with my kids, letting them self-wean and now hsing and *gasp* unschooling!
Stephanie E.
thedollymama2003
Hi. I'm new. This is my first post. I've been reading about all the
anti-child humor and I've alway thought it so sad that the general
stereotype is that kid's are all "bad" and the parents should never
play the role of friend until the children are adults.
My biggest frustration in this area now is I just had my fourth
daughter. Second only to the comments of sorrow for me because I
didn't have a boy (nobody seems to notice that I'm not crying about
it) everyone, especially strangers, say "just wait til they are all
teenagers!" So according to everyone, upon becoming young women, my
beautiful, sweet, intelligent babies are going to become fighting
machines with no sense or feeling outside of making my life miserable.
I understand about hormones and all, but if I buy into this
mentalitiy, of course my kids will hate me. I'll have programmed them
and myself into it. So I tell people, "Yeah, I can't wait. Then
we'll finally be able to share clothes!" Then I turn their attention
to the mismatched ourfits that my kids are wearing (I always let them
choose their own clothes. This seems to shut them up pretty quick.
Heidi
anti-child humor and I've alway thought it so sad that the general
stereotype is that kid's are all "bad" and the parents should never
play the role of friend until the children are adults.
My biggest frustration in this area now is I just had my fourth
daughter. Second only to the comments of sorrow for me because I
didn't have a boy (nobody seems to notice that I'm not crying about
it) everyone, especially strangers, say "just wait til they are all
teenagers!" So according to everyone, upon becoming young women, my
beautiful, sweet, intelligent babies are going to become fighting
machines with no sense or feeling outside of making my life miserable.
I understand about hormones and all, but if I buy into this
mentalitiy, of course my kids will hate me. I'll have programmed them
and myself into it. So I tell people, "Yeah, I can't wait. Then
we'll finally be able to share clothes!" Then I turn their attention
to the mismatched ourfits that my kids are wearing (I always let them
choose their own clothes. This seems to shut them up pretty quick.
Heidi
Paula Sjogerman
on 3/30/03 8:39 AM, thedollymama2003 at ynxn96@... wrote:
intelligent 13 yr old daughter does have those irrational fighting machine
moments. I suppose I could define her by those, but I don't. And because we
homeschool, we have so many more moments together.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> everyone, especially strangers, say "just wait til they are allThis, like most things, can be a matter of perception. My beautiful, sweet,
> teenagers!" So according to everyone, upon becoming young women, my
> beautiful, sweet, intelligent babies are going to become fighting
> machines with no sense or feeling outside of making my life miserable.
intelligent 13 yr old daughter does have those irrational fighting machine
moments. I suppose I could define her by those, but I don't. And because we
homeschool, we have so many more moments together.
Paula
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nancy Wooton
on 3/30/03 6:55 AM, Paula Sjogerman at sjogy@... wrote:
::::ducking!::::
Nancy
>> everyone, especially strangers, say "just wait til they are allShe just takes after her mom.
>> teenagers!" So according to everyone, upon becoming young women, my
>> beautiful, sweet, intelligent babies are going to become fighting
>> machines with no sense or feeling outside of making my life miserable.
>
> This, like most things, can be a matter of perception. My beautiful, sweet,
> intelligent 13 yr old daughter does have those irrational fighting machine
> moments. I suppose I could define her by those, but I don't. And because we
> homeschool, we have so many more moments together.
::::ducking!::::
Nancy
Paula Sjogerman
on 3/30/03 11:39 AM, Nancy Wooton at ikonstitcher@... wrote:
pretend to be one of those tall, voluptuous unschoolers - I knew Nancy would
never let me get away with that <gg>).
paula
> She just takes after her mom.Hey! You just know I can't reach you! (And to think I was going to try to
>
>
>
> ::::ducking!::::
>
> Nancy
pretend to be one of those tall, voluptuous unschoolers - I knew Nancy would
never let me get away with that <gg>).
paula
Pamela Sorooshian
I have 3 daughters, 18, 15 and 12. I'm GLAD I have only girls. I'm sure
if I had only boys or both boys and girls, I'd be glad about that too,
of course!!
Having three teenager girls in the house (and, believe me, the 12 yo is
right there -youngest kids grow up faster in some ways) - can be really
very difficult at times - that is the truth. But it is no MORe the
truth than that having 3 toddlers can be difficult, etc. So - as long
as you don't expect that you'll always be totally 'in synch" with your
teenage girls - it will still be a wonderful experience - i wouldn't
skip it for anything.
Ever watch the Cosby show? The teenager girls (and one boy) exploits -
disagreements with parents, etc., are there - but you just KNOW they
all love each other dearly and they clearly enjoy each others' company,
etc. I don't think the show is all that realistic in terms of how the
parents behave toward the kids
That is a reasonable expectation, imo.
if I had only boys or both boys and girls, I'd be glad about that too,
of course!!
Having three teenager girls in the house (and, believe me, the 12 yo is
right there -youngest kids grow up faster in some ways) - can be really
very difficult at times - that is the truth. But it is no MORe the
truth than that having 3 toddlers can be difficult, etc. So - as long
as you don't expect that you'll always be totally 'in synch" with your
teenage girls - it will still be a wonderful experience - i wouldn't
skip it for anything.
Ever watch the Cosby show? The teenager girls (and one boy) exploits -
disagreements with parents, etc., are there - but you just KNOW they
all love each other dearly and they clearly enjoy each others' company,
etc. I don't think the show is all that realistic in terms of how the
parents behave toward the kids
That is a reasonable expectation, imo.
On Sunday, March 30, 2003, at 06:39 AM, thedollymama2003 wrote:
> My biggest frustration in this area now is I just had my fourth
> daughter. Second only to the comments of sorrow for me because I
> didn't have a boy (nobody seems to notice that I'm not crying about
> it) everyone, especially strangers, say "just wait til they are all
> teenagers!" So according to everyone, upon becoming young women, my
> beautiful, sweet, intelligent babies are going to become fighting
> machines with no sense or feeling outside of making my life miserable.
Kate Green
>Congratulations (how old is she?). I just had my 4th son (3months ago) and
> My biggest frustration in this area now is I just had my fourth
> Second only to the comments of sorrow for me because I
> didn't have a boy (nobody seems to notice that I'm not crying about
> "just wait til they are all
it's lovely having four no matter if they are boys or girls. I like having
my tribe of boys and thinks it's really neat. What ticks me off the most is
when people say "oh don't you wish you had a girl," or "are you trying for
a girl?" Well a girl would be great but the boys I have are just fine thank
you very much.
And actually living in the Middle East is good because lots of boys is
highly respected:) People always congratulate my husband!
>" So according to everyone, upon becoming young women, myWe get that as well. I think people think boys will just run wild. Mine are
> beautiful, sweet, intelligent babies are going to become fighting
> machines with no sense or feeling outside of making my life miserable.
lovely (most of the time:) And the 2 oldest, at 15 and 13, are a joy to be
around. We laugh a lot, talk about everything and really enjoy each others
company. If we do have issues then we talk about them and find ways to work
thru things. We don't shout very ofte (I whine or snap when I'm grouchy or
ticked off at things but I'm trying to stop:) and the kids sometimes snap
at us but they don't yell or slam doors etc. I guess because they don't
have reason to as any anger is short lived and easily worked thru.
I do find that when we go thru periods of time in which one or more of the
kids is away from home a lot then they tend to fight more. It also happens
when we have other kids over A LOT and it isn't just our family. When we
get lots of chances to just hang out with the six of us then everything
runs smoother. The boys have noticed as well I think because often they'll
suggest we have family time without others around.
Kate
>
> I understand about hormones and all, but if I buy into this
> I'll have programmed them
> " Then
>" Then I turn their attention
> to the mismatched ourfits that my kids are wearing (I always let them
>
> Heidi
>
>
>
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BADOLBILZ
Hi Kate! Our littlest is four months today. The beauty of having four
girls or boys is that you really no longer have a middle child to feel
left out. I agree with you about conflict often coming when other kids
come over. It seems to divide the unit that the girls are when alone.
But I suppose that is something we will have to learn to overcome.
Sometimes things need to be difficult before they can get
better...speaking of which, where are you in the Middle East? Are you
all okay? Whenever I think of the families over there, my heart fills
my throat. It is my sincerest wish that this war does not touch your
family in any way. Be safe and happy. Sincerely, Heidi Case
Kate Green wrote:
girls or boys is that you really no longer have a middle child to feel
left out. I agree with you about conflict often coming when other kids
come over. It seems to divide the unit that the girls are when alone.
But I suppose that is something we will have to learn to overcome.
Sometimes things need to be difficult before they can get
better...speaking of which, where are you in the Middle East? Are you
all okay? Whenever I think of the families over there, my heart fills
my throat. It is my sincerest wish that this war does not touch your
family in any way. Be safe and happy. Sincerely, Heidi Case
Kate Green wrote:
>>My biggest frustration in this area now is I just had my fourth[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> Second only to the comments of sorrow for me because I
>>didn't have a boy (nobody seems to notice that I'm not crying about
>>"just wait til they are all
>>
>>
>
>Congratulations (how old is she?). I just had my 4th son (3months ago) and
>it's lovely having four no matter if they are boys or girls. I like having
>my tribe of boys and thinks it's really neat. What ticks me off the most is
>when people say "oh don't you wish you had a girl," or "are you trying for
>a girl?" Well a girl would be great but the boys I have are just fine thank
>you very much.
>And actually living in the Middle East is good because lots of boys is
>highly respected:) People always congratulate my husband!
>
>
>
>
>>" So according to everyone, upon becoming young women, my
>>beautiful, sweet, intelligent babies are going to become fighting
>>machines with no sense or feeling outside of making my life miserable.
>>
>>
>
>We get that as well. I think people think boys will just run wild. Mine are
>lovely (most of the time:) And the 2 oldest, at 15 and 13, are a joy to be
>around. We laugh a lot, talk about everything and really enjoy each others
>company. If we do have issues then we talk about them and find ways to work
>thru things. We don't shout very ofte (I whine or snap when I'm grouchy or
>ticked off at things but I'm trying to stop:) and the kids sometimes snap
>at us but they don't yell or slam doors etc. I guess because they don't
>have reason to as any anger is short lived and easily worked thru.
>
>I do find that when we go thru periods of time in which one or more of the
>kids is away from home a lot then they tend to fight more. It also happens
>when we have other kids over A LOT and it isn't just our family. When we
>get lots of chances to just hang out with the six of us then everything
>runs smoother. The boys have noticed as well I think because often they'll
>suggest we have family time without others around.
>
>Kate
>
>
>>I understand about hormones and all, but if I buy into this
>> I'll have programmed them
>>" Then
>>" Then I turn their attention
>>to the mismatched ourfits that my kids are wearing (I always let them
>>
>> Heidi
>>
>>
>>
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>>[email protected]
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>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>[email protected]
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
Alan & Brenda Leonard
3/31/03 15:30:
put that. Thanks, Paula!
And Heidi, I think it's wonderful you are happy with your four daughters. I
have friends with multiple girls, and they say they hear that junk a lot,
too. How sad, because they, too, have lovely daughters.
brenda
> This, like most things, can be a matter of perception. My beautiful, sweet,Not defining our children by their "moments" -- that is such a good way to
> intelligent 13 yr old daughter does have those irrational fighting machine
> moments. I suppose I could define her by those, but I don't.
put that. Thanks, Paula!
And Heidi, I think it's wonderful you are happy with your four daughters. I
have friends with multiple girls, and they say they hear that junk a lot,
too. How sad, because they, too, have lovely daughters.
brenda
Kate Green
So you had a little Thanksgiving baby then:) We were going for Solstice
but he came on the 17th which was just fine.
changed now. We have relatively large gaps (15, 13, 8 and 3 m) so some of
the issues may be alleviated somewhat. What I am enjoying is watching how
the older ones are relating to this baby. It's really lovely to see these
big teens being so nurturing and loving with the baby.
THanks for your thoughts about families over here. We are quite a long way
(650 miles from Baghdad:) from trouble and things are very quiet in this
country. What's additionally hard on the kids is that watching the news
they see people, landscape, and buildings that look just like the view from
our window. It's just not so foreign feeling! Plus we have lots of Iraqi,
Syrian, Kuwaiti... friends so it is difficult at times. Friendships feel
strained as no one wants to offend or say the wrong thing.
Kate
At 07:43 AM 3/31/03 -0500, you wrote:
but he came on the 17th which was just fine.
>he beauty of having fourThis is true. They've been teasing each other about how their places have
>> girls or boys is that you really no longer have a middle child to feel
>
changed now. We have relatively large gaps (15, 13, 8 and 3 m) so some of
the issues may be alleviated somewhat. What I am enjoying is watching how
the older ones are relating to this baby. It's really lovely to see these
big teens being so nurturing and loving with the baby.
THanks for your thoughts about families over here. We are quite a long way
(650 miles from Baghdad:) from trouble and things are very quiet in this
country. What's additionally hard on the kids is that watching the news
they see people, landscape, and buildings that look just like the view from
our window. It's just not so foreign feeling! Plus we have lots of Iraqi,
Syrian, Kuwaiti... friends so it is difficult at times. Friendships feel
strained as no one wants to offend or say the wrong thing.
Kate
At 07:43 AM 3/31/03 -0500, you wrote:
> T> I agree with you about conflict often coming when other kids
> It seems to divide the unit that the girls are when alone.
> But I suppose that is something we will have to learn to overcome.
> Sometimes things need to be difficult before they can get
> Are you
> Whenever I think of the families over there, my heart fills
> It is my sincerest wish that this war does not touch your
> Sincerely, Heidi Case
>
> Kate Green wrote:
>
>>>My biggest frustration in this area now is I just had my fourth
>>> Second only to the comments of sorrow for me because I
>>>didn't have a boy (nobody seems to notice that I'm not crying about
>>>"just wait til they are all
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Congratulations (how old is she?). I just had my 4th son (3months ago) and
>>it's lovely having four no matter if they are boys or girls. I like having
>>my tribe of boys and thinks it's really neat. What ticks me off the most is
>>"""are you trying for
>>" Well a girl would be great but the boys I have are just fine thank
>>you very much.
>>And actually living in the Middle East is good because lots of boys is
>>highly respected:) People always congratulate my husband!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>" So according to everyone, upon becoming young women, my
>>>beautiful, sweet, intelligent babies are going to become fighting
>>>machines with no sense or feeling outside of making my life miserable.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>We get that as well. I think people think boys will just run wild. Mine are
>>lovely (most of the time:) And the 2 oldest, at 15 and 13, are a joy to be
>>around. We laugh a lot, talk about everything and really enjoy each others
>>company. If we do have issues then we talk about them and find ways to work
>>thru things. We don't shout very ofte (I whine or snap when I'm grouchy or
>>ticked off at things but I'm trying to stop:) and the kids sometimes snap
>>at us but they don't yell or slam doors etc. I guess because they don't
>>have reason to as any anger is short lived and easily worked thru.
>>
>>I do find that when we go thru periods of time in which one or more of the
>>kids is away from home a lot then they tend to fight more. It also happens
>>when we have other kids over A LOT and it isn't just our family. When we
>>get lots of chances to just hang out with the six of us then everything
>>runs smoother. The boys have noticed as well I think because often they'll
>>suggest we have family time without others around.
>>
>>Kate
>>
>>
>>>I understand about hormones and all, but if I buy into this
>>> I'll have programmed them
>>>" Then
>>>" Then I turn their attention
>>>to the mismatched ourfits that my kids are wearing (I always let them
>>>
>>> Heidi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ADVERTISEMENT
>>>
>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>[email protected]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>[email protected]
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
BADOLBILZ
Judging from your name, I gather you're not originally from the Middle
East. How did you end up there? It sounds like you like it there.
Are there eductional requirements you must meet like here in NY?
My girls are very, very maternal with the baby. Sometimes I feel bad
because my older sister has a 2 yr old girl (as do I) and a 7 month old
boy. Her daughter is very aggressive toward her brother and my sister
is always asking me if any of my girls were like that. I have to say
no, but I feel bad that she makes the comparison.
I think it's because we and our households are so opposite. Our house:
I stay at home, home births, co-sleeping, unschooling, no schedule at
all except for a loose bedtime for the girls, meals whenever and
wherever, lots of playtime but strict rules of courtesy, respect and
manners. Her house: both parents work full time, hospital births, in
cribs to maintain strict sleeping schedules, structured daycare with
only same-age children, very strict meal/snack schedules, limited
playspace due to a house in constant construction.
Honestly, I feel sad for her and her kids. They are all always sick and
so tense. I just don't understand how in a world like today's with its
viruses, wars, etc. anyone would choose to live a life so focused on
materialism. It all comes down to that, I think, because if it weren't
so important to my sister to keep such an expensive house, clothes, and
other things, she could stay at home and least show her kids that they
are the most important thing really. She wouldn't even have to go as
far as I do (home births, unschooling). If only she could just be there
for them.
One of the best part of our lives is that every day is like a holiday.
And we really truly are enjoying every day. My older girls go to bed
saying "this was the best day we've ever had." And like I said, with
the instability of our world, shouldn't we all try to make each day the
best day we've ever had, if for no other reason because we had the good
fortune to be blessed with the oppotunity just to have another day.
May you all have your best day ever! Sincerely, Heidi Case
Kate Green wrote:
East. How did you end up there? It sounds like you like it there.
Are there eductional requirements you must meet like here in NY?
My girls are very, very maternal with the baby. Sometimes I feel bad
because my older sister has a 2 yr old girl (as do I) and a 7 month old
boy. Her daughter is very aggressive toward her brother and my sister
is always asking me if any of my girls were like that. I have to say
no, but I feel bad that she makes the comparison.
I think it's because we and our households are so opposite. Our house:
I stay at home, home births, co-sleeping, unschooling, no schedule at
all except for a loose bedtime for the girls, meals whenever and
wherever, lots of playtime but strict rules of courtesy, respect and
manners. Her house: both parents work full time, hospital births, in
cribs to maintain strict sleeping schedules, structured daycare with
only same-age children, very strict meal/snack schedules, limited
playspace due to a house in constant construction.
Honestly, I feel sad for her and her kids. They are all always sick and
so tense. I just don't understand how in a world like today's with its
viruses, wars, etc. anyone would choose to live a life so focused on
materialism. It all comes down to that, I think, because if it weren't
so important to my sister to keep such an expensive house, clothes, and
other things, she could stay at home and least show her kids that they
are the most important thing really. She wouldn't even have to go as
far as I do (home births, unschooling). If only she could just be there
for them.
One of the best part of our lives is that every day is like a holiday.
And we really truly are enjoying every day. My older girls go to bed
saying "this was the best day we've ever had." And like I said, with
the instability of our world, shouldn't we all try to make each day the
best day we've ever had, if for no other reason because we had the good
fortune to be blessed with the oppotunity just to have another day.
May you all have your best day ever! Sincerely, Heidi Case
Kate Green wrote:
>So you had a little Thanksgiving baby then:) We were going for Solstice[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>but he came on the 17th which was just fine.
>
>
>
>>he beauty of having four
>>
>>
>>>girls or boys is that you really no longer have a middle child to feel
>>>
>>>
>
>This is true. They've been teasing each other about how their places have
>changed now. We have relatively large gaps (15, 13, 8 and 3 m) so some of
>the issues may be alleviated somewhat. What I am enjoying is watching how
>the older ones are relating to this baby. It's really lovely to see these
>big teens being so nurturing and loving with the baby.
>
>THanks for your thoughts about families over here. We are quite a long way
>(650 miles from Baghdad:) from trouble and things are very quiet in this
>country. What's additionally hard on the kids is that watching the news
>they see people, landscape, and buildings that look just like the view from
>our window. It's just not so foreign feeling! Plus we have lots of Iraqi,
>Syrian, Kuwaiti... friends so it is difficult at times. Friendships feel
>strained as no one wants to offend or say the wrong thing.
>
>Kate
>
>
>
>
>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/1/03 8:29:07 AM, ynxn96@... writes:
<< with the instability of our world, shouldn't we all try to make each day
the
best day we've ever had, if for no other reason because we had the good
fortune to be blessed with the opportunity just to have another day. >>
BEAUTIFUL.
Thanks.
Sandra
<< with the instability of our world, shouldn't we all try to make each day
the
best day we've ever had, if for no other reason because we had the good
fortune to be blessed with the opportunity just to have another day. >>
BEAUTIFUL.
Thanks.
Sandra