Alan & Brenda Leonard

3/1/03 18:57:

> And the woman posting it was basically saying that none of "our" children
> would dare try to express themselves, or even think they have rights. And
> the thought of a mother squashing those rights is cool. Remember I live in
> the Bible Belt.
>
> So against my grain Maybe I should just sit on it for a day and see if I
> still have the same gut reaction tomorrow. I know what I would say just
> wondering if I should say it or let it pass?

Is it possible that you write back and ask if this is just a joke? Tell
them you don't find it particuly funny, and it bothers you that the author
would write such a thing that is so disrespectful to both child and parent.
That way, you question the motive, blame the author not the person who sent
it, and note that you suspected it was a joke, if a somewhat sick one.

If you want to avoid the discussion entirely, maybe you could just send
something that notes that since everyone has different tastes in humor,
perhaps this list should stick to its purpose of information dissemination.

brenda

Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema

>Is it possible that you write back and ask if this is just a joke? Tell
>them you don't find it particuly funny, and it bothers you that the author
>would write such a thing that is so disrespectful to both child and parent.
>That way, you question the motive, blame the author not the person who sent
>it, and note that you suspected it was a joke, if a somewhat sick one.

Oh, this is a VERY nice way of handling it.
Can we nominate Brenda for an Aikido Master Award?
Heidi

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/1/03 6:25:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, heidi@...
writes:

> >Is it possible that you write back and ask if this is just a joke? Tell
> >them you don't find it particuly funny, and it bothers you that the author
> >would write such a thing that is so disrespectful to both child and
> parent.
> >That way, you question the motive, blame the author not the person who
> sent
> >it, and note that you suspected it was a joke, if a somewhat sick one.
>
> Oh, this is a VERY nice way of handling it.
> Can we nominate Brenda for an Aikido Master Award?
> Heidi
>
>
>

I liked that response. I also liked Kelly's response too. Not sure if I am
up to stirring things up maybe Brenda's would be more diplomatic while
getting my point across.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/1/03 11:58:14 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<<
 >>>"I know that NONE of our kids would have an attitude like this :-) but
couldn't resist....Have a great weekend ,. ----- >>

OH GAG!! PUHLEEEZ...may they all be cursed with children that think for
themselves!! HA.
I would be SO out of a group that posted things like that.
Maybe I'm getting less tolerant in my mid-30's or something...I like to think
I'm wiser about how to spend my time.
And those kind of people will not get my energy and time.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/1/03 11:58:14 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< The group is labeled as inclusive and nonreligious. >>

It's neither in my opinion.



Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/1/03 11:38:46 PM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:

> I would be SO out of a group that posted things like that.
> Maybe I'm getting less tolerant in my mid-30's or something...I like to
> think
> I'm wiser about how to spend my time.
> And those kind of people will not get my energy and time.
>
>

I agree with that butit isn't just me I have to think about. My boys love
that play group the reason being is that there are kids of all ages there
from 2 up to 17. The other play group we are in the children are younger
from 4 to 8. My 8 year old being one of 2 that are older than 6.
I do think I will respond though, will post what I respond with.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan & Brenda Leonard

3/1/03 20:55:

> "Just like a garden left to grow weeds, children , if left to themselves will
> produce evil" I still haven't decided what to say to that! I was amazed, as he
> has always seemed so sensible! Is it even worth talking to these people? And
> is this attitude a general christian thing or what?

Well, "general Christian" doesn't exist, so far as I've ever been able to
find. We all (all Christians, I mean) believe in God and follow Christ.
And the road forks about two millimenters later. Christianity has so many
denominations because of this problem -- we all believe different things.

However, while I don't share the writer's opinion, I can probably give you
at least a basic insight about its source. There is a long-standing idea in
Christianity called "original sin".

The idea is that Adam and Eve were created perfect, but fell into sin with
that whole mess in the garden. (Genesis 3, if you really feel like reading
the story.) Because of their sin, everyone since has been born sinful, is
how the idea goes. So the writer is quoting Proverbs (I think), which
builds on the idea that we're all sinful until it's trained out of us,
therefore children are evil if left to their own devices.

An awful lot of Christians truly believe that as part of their personal
theology, so I don't know if it's worth trying to talk them out of it. To
them, it's perfectly sensible. If it's any reassurance, there are plenty of
Christians out there that think original sin is a pretty lame idea!

brenda
too heathen for the Chrisians and too Christian for the heathens...

Alan & Brenda Leonard

3/2/03 18:54:

> Oh, this is a VERY nice way of handling it.

Thanks, Heidi.

brenda

Tia Leschke

> brenda
> too heathen for the Chrisians and too Christian for the heathens...

Not too Christian for this heathen. <g> I tend to refer to capital c
Christians and small c Christians. The ones I call capital c Christians are
the ones who are in your face with it all the time, the ones who
deliberately drop little clues for the other Christians to pick up and know
them by. The small c Christians are the ones who simply live their faith,
without being in your face about it. "By their fruits ye shall know them."
Tia

[email protected]

Well, this is what I sent out...just want people to think a little before
they send things along....Thanks for all the advice. I know I probably
should have let it just drop but I couldn't. (this one is long again...sorry
about that)

Thanks again
Pam G.


Don't mess with MOM!!! OUTSTANDING!
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------------
>>My son came home from school one day,
>>with a smirk upon his face.
>>He decided he was smart enough,
>>to put me in my place.
>>
>>"Guess what I learned in Civics Two,
>>that's taught by Mr. Wright?
>>It's all about the laws today,
>>The "Children's Bill of Rights." .......


I assume this was a joke.  It is so hard to believe that the author would
treat her son that she loves with such disrespect.  That at the first sign
that he may want a say about his life she would take all his belongings and
crush him until he cries "uncle". Not really something to joke about.  Maybe
it should be changed to something alone the lines of this one:

My son came home from school one day,
with a smile upon his face.
He decided he had learned enough,
and presented me his case.

"Guess what I learned in Civics Two,
that's taught by Mr. Wright?
It's all about the laws today
The "Children's Bill of Rights."

It says I can choose to clean my room,
or even cut my hair.
No one can tell me what to learn,
or speak or think or wear.

I have freedom of religion,
and regardless what some say,
I don't have to bow my head,
or even have to pray.

I can wear earrings if I choose,
and pierce my tongue and nose.
I can read and watch just what I like,
and get tattoos from head to toes.

No one can ever touch me,
my body's for my use,
but maybe hugs and kisses,
if that is what I choose.

Don't preach about your morals,
like your Mama did to you.
For I can see your morals
in what you say and do.

Mom, I have these children's rights,
and you have rights too.
So treat me with respect and love,
I'll do the same to you.

Of course my first instinct was
to toss him out the door.
But the chance to see him live his life
made me think a little more.

I mulled it over carefully,
I couldn't let it go.
I'll take him out of school I thought.
We'll see what else will flow.

The first week was a shocker
for all he wanted was TV.
But I waited patiently
for curiosity to spring free.

We went shopping for some books
at the local Goodwill store.
We read those books together.
There were tears and laughs galore.

And back we went to that Goodwill.
We found a few books more.
Scraped together all out change
and talked about help for the poor.

I have my religion,
but I know not all believe
in my one God and Jesus,
as the One to set you free.

So I can help my son along,
in exploring his spiritual self.
Help him find what's right for him,
maybe more than a book on a shelf.

He still loves TV and videos.
I watch too so we can talk.
The best way for me to influence my son,
is for him to watch the path I walk.

There are many paths this life may offer,
I can't pick the one he takes.
I have to trust my son's decisions.
That's the best choice I can make.

Let's take a walk today my son,
the world is big and wide.
I know that learning is everywhere
and we'll do it side by side.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Michelle H

Pam!!! How wonderful!! You have sent chills down my
spine and brought tears to my eyes. I simply cannot
think of a better way to deal with this than you
chose. If only all children were as lucky as yours, to
have a mom like you.
Love,
Michelle H



=====
You are the same today that you are going to be five
years from now except for two things: the people with
whom you associate and the books you read.
--Charles Jones

__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

Tia Leschke

>Well, this is what I sent out...just want people to think a little before
>they send things along....Thanks for all the advice. I know I probably
>should have let it just drop but I couldn't. (this one is long
again...sorry
>about that)

Way to go, Pam! Well done.
Tia

Angie <[email protected]>

I like your version much more!!

Angie



--- In [email protected], genant2@a... wrote:
> Well, this is what I sent out...just want people to think a little
before
> they send things along....Thanks for all the advice. I know I
probably
> should have let it just drop but I couldn't. (this one is long
again...sorry
> about that)
>
> Thanks again
> Pam G.
>
>
> Don't mess with MOM!!! OUTSTANDING!
> >>
> >>--------------------------------------------------------------
> >>My son came home from school one day,
> >>with a smirk upon his face.
> >>He decided he was smart enough,
> >>to put me in my place.
> >>
> >>"Guess what I learned in Civics Two,
> >>that's taught by Mr. Wright?
> >>It's all about the laws today,
> >>The "Children's Bill of Rights." .......
>
>
> I assume this was a joke.  It is so hard to believe that the author
would
> treat her son that she loves with such disrespect.  That at the
first sign
> that he may want a say about his life she would take all his
belongings and
> crush him until he cries "uncle". Not really something to joke
about.  Maybe
> it should be changed to something alone the lines of this one:
>
> My son came home from school one day,
> with a smile upon his face.
> He decided he had learned enough,
> and presented me his case.
>
> "Guess what I learned in Civics Two,
> that's taught by Mr. Wright?
> It's all about the laws today
> The "Children's Bill of Rights."
>
> It says I can choose to clean my room,
> or even cut my hair.
> No one can tell me what to learn,
> or speak or think or wear.
>
> I have freedom of religion,
> and regardless what some say,
> I don't have to bow my head,
> or even have to pray.
>
> I can wear earrings if I choose,
> and pierce my tongue and nose.
> I can read and watch just what I like,
> and get tattoos from head to toes.
>
> No one can ever touch me,
> my body's for my use,
> but maybe hugs and kisses,
> if that is what I choose.
>
> Don't preach about your morals,
> like your Mama did to you.
> For I can see your morals
> in what you say and do.
>
> Mom, I have these children's rights,
> and you have rights too.
> So treat me with respect and love,
> I'll do the same to you.
>
> Of course my first instinct was
> to toss him out the door.
> But the chance to see him live his life
> made me think a little more.
>
> I mulled it over carefully,
> I couldn't let it go.
> I'll take him out of school I thought.
> We'll see what else will flow.
>
> The first week was a shocker
> for all he wanted was TV.
> But I waited patiently
> for curiosity to spring free.
>
> We went shopping for some books
> at the local Goodwill store.
> We read those books together.
> There were tears and laughs galore.
>
> And back we went to that Goodwill.
> We found a few books more.
> Scraped together all out change
> and talked about help for the poor.
>
> I have my religion,
> but I know not all believe
> in my one God and Jesus,
> as the One to set you free.
>
> So I can help my son along,
> in exploring his spiritual self.
> Help him find what's right for him,
> maybe more than a book on a shelf.
>
> He still loves TV and videos.
> I watch too so we can talk.
> The best way for me to influence my son,
> is for him to watch the path I walk.
>
> There are many paths this life may offer,
> I can't pick the one he takes.
> I have to trust my son's decisions.
> That's the best choice I can make.
>
> Let's take a walk today my son,
> the world is big and wide.
> I know that learning is everywhere
> and we'll do it side by side.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

waptia <[email protected]>

--- In [email protected], genant2@a... wrote:
> Well, this is what I sent out...just want people to think a little
before
> they send things along....Thanks for all the advice. I know I probably
> should have let it just drop but I couldn't. (this one is long
again...sorry
> about that)
>
> Thanks again
> Pam G.

Pam, this is wonderful!!!!

Thanks so much, I bet this makes its way around the internet too.

Peggy

Schuyler Waynforth <s.waynforth@btopenwo

What a wonderful response!! You should feel good about not letting
it drop!!

Schuyler

--- In [email protected], genant2@a... wrote:
> Well, this is what I sent out...just want people to think a little
before
> they send things along....Thanks for all the advice. I know I
probably
> should have let it just drop but I couldn't. (this one is long
again...sorry
> about that)
>
> Thanks again
> Pam G.
>
>
> Don't mess with MOM!!! OUTSTANDING!

Barb Eaton

Brenda,
I'll join you there. ;-)


Barb E
"I'm not happy, I'm cheerful. There's a difference. A
happy woman has no cares at all. A cheerful woman has
cares, but has learned how to deal with them."

- Beverly Sills, Opera Singer





on 3/2/03 1:39 PM, Alan & Brenda Leonard at abtleo@... wrote:

>
> brenda
> too heathen for the Chrisians and too Christian for the heathens...

Barb Eaton

Pam,
Boy I sure am glad you didn't pass and delete. I love it! Can I pass it
along?


Barb E
"I'm not happy, I'm cheerful. There's a difference. A
happy woman has no cares at all. A cheerful woman has
cares, but has learned how to deal with them."

- Beverly Sills, Opera Singer


on 3/2/03 7:37 PM, genant2@... at genant2@... wrote:

> My son came home from school one day,
> with a smile upon his face.
> He decided he had learned enough,
> and presented me his case.
>
> "Guess what I learned in Civics Two,
> that's taught by Mr. Wright?
> It's all about the laws today
> The "Children's Bill of Rights."
>
> It says I can choose to clean my room,
> or even cut my hair.
> No one can tell me what to learn,
> or speak or think or wear.
>
> I have freedom of religion,
> and regardless what some say,
> I don't have to bow my head,
> or even have to pray.
>
> I can wear earrings if I choose,
> and pierce my tongue and nose.
> I can read and watch just what I like,
> and get tattoos from head to toes.
>
> No one can ever touch me,
> my body's for my use,
> but maybe hugs and kisses,
> if that is what I choose.
>
> Don't preach about your morals,
> like your Mama did to you.
> For I can see your morals
> in what you say and do.
>
> Mom, I have these children's rights,
> and you have rights too.
> So treat me with respect and love,
> I'll do the same to you.
>
> Of course my first instinct was
> to toss him out the door.
> But the chance to see him live his life
> made me think a little more.
>
> I mulled it over carefully,
> I couldn't let it go.
> I'll take him out of school I thought.
> We'll see what else will flow.
>
> The first week was a shocker
> for all he wanted was TV.
> But I waited patiently
> for curiosity to spring free.
>
> We went shopping for some books
> at the local Goodwill store.
> We read those books together.
> There were tears and laughs galore.
>
> And back we went to that Goodwill.
> We found a few books more.
> Scraped together all out change
> and talked about help for the poor.
>
> I have my religion,
> but I know not all believe
> in my one God and Jesus,
> as the One to set you free.
>
> So I can help my son along,
> in exploring his spiritual self.
> Help him find what's right for him,
> maybe more than a book on a shelf.
>
> He still loves TV and videos.
> I watch too so we can talk.
> The best way for me to influence my son,
> is for him to watch the path I walk.
>
> There are many paths this life may offer,
> I can't pick the one he takes.
> I have to trust my son's decisions.
> That's the best choice I can make.
>
> Let's take a walk today my son,
> the world is big and wide.
> I know that learning is everywhere
> and we'll do it side by side.

Kelli Traaseth

**Well, this is what I sent out**

Pam,

Good for you! I think it was a good choice! Maybe you'll reach someone.

Kelli




---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, and more

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514 <[email protected]>

>
> Let's take a walk today my son,
> the world is big and wide.
> I know that learning is everywhere
> and we'll do it side by side.
>
>
Awesome!
You found the perfect way to reply.

Joanna

Todd Tyrtle

Hi Pam,

On Sun, 2 Mar 2003 genant2@... wrote:

> Well, this is what I sent out...just want people to think a little before
> they send things along....Thanks for all the advice. I know I probably
> should have let it just drop but I couldn't. (this one is long again...sorry
> about that)

Excellent! I like this a bunch. I think this was a great way to handle
this situation and will probably bring about some interesting, if not
always comfortable, discussion.

Mind if I forward it on to a few people? ;^)

-Todd

Karin

genant2@... wrote:

<<There are many paths this life may offer,
I can't pick the one he takes.
I have to trust my son's decisions.
That's the best choice I can make.

Let's take a walk today my son,
the world is big and wide.
I know that learning is everywhere
and we'll do it side by side. >>


That was a very clever response, Pam G.
I'm just wondering - what kind of feedback you're getting about your new and
improved version?
It seems that the person who sent it and everyone who laughed along with it,
should be ashamed of themselves!
You put them in their place - I hope it makes them think twice about
trivializing the relationship between parents and children.
Good for you!

Karin

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/3/03 8:23:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,
homemama@... writes:

> Pam,
> Boy I sure am glad you didn't pass and delete. I love it! Can I pass it
> along?
>
>
>

Not a problem.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/3/03 9:42:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, todd@...
writes:

> Mind if I forward it on to a few people? ;^)
>
>

Forward away if you like,
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/3/03 7:40:45 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< Let's take a walk today my son,
> the world is big and wide.
> I know that learning is everywhere
> and we'll do it side by side. >>

That version was lovely....sigh.

Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."

----Frances Hodgson Burnett

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/3/03 9:57:02 AM Eastern Standard Time, curtkar@...
writes:

> I'm just wondering - what kind of feedback you're getting about your new and
> improved version?
>

No one has said anything on that list. Not a surprise the list is usually
quiet unless someone is organizing an activity or something, or the
occasional Bible verse (delete-delete). Why do people send those? I guess I
figure I can read and I have several Bibles my homeschool support group isn't
where I turn for spiritual needs. Anyway. We'll see how it goes. There is
a play group next Friday. LOL
Pam G.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alan & Brenda Leonard

3/3/03 14:40:

> Not too Christian for this heathen. <g> I tend to refer to capital c
> Christians and small c Christians. The ones I call capital c Christians are
> the ones who are in your face with it all the time, the ones who
> deliberately drop little clues for the other Christians to pick up and know
> them by. The small c Christians are the ones who simply live their faith,
> without being in your face about it.

I automatically capitalize the C, Christian being a proper name....all those
years of grammer training! Ugh. But I think of the Christians and the
CHRISTIANS.

Homeschooling here in Friedberg has expanded greatly in the last week: we
now have 3 homeschooling families (up from two). Unfortunately, my initial
encounter with the new folks was that they're CHRISTIAN, too. And slightly
horrified that I don't use a CHRISTIAN curriculum. We didn't get into my
lack of curriculum in general. Sigh. I was hoping, you know.

brenda

Alan & Brenda Leonard

3/3/03 14:40:

> Well, this is what I sent out...just want people to think a little before
> they send things along....Thanks for all the advice. I know I probably
> should have let it just drop but I couldn't.

I really liked what you wrote, Pam! Great job!

brenda

Tia Leschke

>
> Homeschooling here in Friedberg has expanded greatly in the last week: we
> now have 3 homeschooling families (up from two). Unfortunately, my
initial
> encounter with the new folks was that they're CHRISTIAN, too. And
slightly
> horrified that I don't use a CHRISTIAN curriculum. We didn't get into my
> lack of curriculum in general. Sigh. I was hoping, you know.

Too bad. Maybe the next family . . .
Tia

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/2/2003 6:40:49 PM Central Standard Time, genant2@...
writes:

> Let's take a walk today my son,
> the world is big and wide.
> I know that learning is everywhere
> and we'll do it side by side.
>

PAM! That was WONDERFUL! Thank you.

You rock.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]