chores
[email protected]
"Something has happened that I thought impossible....I have stopped trying to
force my kids to do chores (almost all the time, not perfect yet <g>) and
have cheerfully done these things myself instead. Now I have a tidier house,
I seem to have more time now that I am not nagging anyone else to do things
that *I* want done and, wonder of wonders, the children have started helping
spontaneously and happily agreeing to polite requests for help (I am willing
to accept a "no" when I ask). Now that I am treating them with true respect,
I am getting it back."
Yes, that has been my experience also Kerrin!! I've had this lesson come home
in amazing ways all week.
Trevor begged me to go get paint today, so after a visit to Home Depot he
spent the evening painting his room.
I was at work, I explained that I had to work tonight and wouldn't be
available to help.
He didn't care, he just really wanted to paint. So he did.
I came home to Sierra (5yo) helping him, she spent hours assisting the paint
project.
She's a very focused five year old!!
I helped finish up some edges after I got home.
His room is going to look fabulous, and it was ALL his doing. It's so
amazing what can happen if we back off and just trust. Seems so simple now,
but the journey was bumpy.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson
Burnett
force my kids to do chores (almost all the time, not perfect yet <g>) and
have cheerfully done these things myself instead. Now I have a tidier house,
I seem to have more time now that I am not nagging anyone else to do things
that *I* want done and, wonder of wonders, the children have started helping
spontaneously and happily agreeing to polite requests for help (I am willing
to accept a "no" when I ask). Now that I am treating them with true respect,
I am getting it back."
Yes, that has been my experience also Kerrin!! I've had this lesson come home
in amazing ways all week.
Trevor begged me to go get paint today, so after a visit to Home Depot he
spent the evening painting his room.
I was at work, I explained that I had to work tonight and wouldn't be
available to help.
He didn't care, he just really wanted to paint. So he did.
I came home to Sierra (5yo) helping him, she spent hours assisting the paint
project.
She's a very focused five year old!!
I helped finish up some edges after I got home.
His room is going to look fabulous, and it was ALL his doing. It's so
amazing what can happen if we back off and just trust. Seems so simple now,
but the journey was bumpy.
Ren
"The sun is shining--the sun is shining. That is the magic. The flowers are
growing--the roots are stirring. That is the magic. Being alive is the
magic--being strong is the magic The magic is in me--the magic is in
me....It's in every one of us."
----Frances Hodgson
Burnett
jfetteroll
**She would have other kitchen duties if not that. Many meals I
prepare on my own, but she does help me quite often. We live in
the same apartment and as such are a team.**
Roberta, I think the dissonance you may be feeling between
what you're writing and the responses you're getting might have
to do more with word choice than with differing ideas.
First I'd like to reiterate what Sandra said. There are (basically)
two types of unschooling lists. One is for support where people
share what they do and so they can get to know each other. The
other is for discussion. People share problems they're having so
they can discuss it :-) So if there's anything you do that you don't
want people to pull out and say "What do you mean by that?
Have you really examined what you're doing?" it's best not to
post it.
It's not that the list doesn't accept people for who they are. It's
that this list is specifically for discussing ideas. It's *for* holding
practices and thoughts and ideas up to examination.
Rather than a place to kick back and let it all hang out, this is a
place where people come to have their ideas challenged, to look
at life in ways they'd never considered before.
Basically on this list the filter through which ideas pass is
treating children as fellow human beings. If someone presents
an idea where it sounds like the child is being treated in a way
that an adult would be upset to be treated, the idea will raise red
flags for many people. And the idea will be discussed.
**She would have other kitchen duties if not that.**
This might be a word use problem.
"Have" suggests that your daughter has been assigned kitchen
duties by someone else. "Have" suggests that if she doesn't do
them then there will be punishment.
Now that *idea* will raise red flags and people will want to
discuss the *idea* of making children -- not your child, not what
you do in your home -- but the idea of making children do chores.
Step back for a moment and treat this as though it weren't about
what you're doing, but about broader ideas.
Does it help build a good relationship between two humans for
one human to have the power over another to tell them what to
do and to punish them if they don't?
(Step back. This isn't about you. It's about how *people* feel.)
Lots of parents would say no, it doesn't help build a good
relationshp. They'd probably be thinking about their spouse,
saying, "I don't want my husband to tell me what to do and
punish me if I don't!"
And yet, without realizing it, they'd be doing exactly that to their
kids! They'd make their kids do something and punish them (or
make them feel bad or get mad at them or ask them over and
over and over ...) And they'd say "Yes, I'm making her, but ___."
And they'd fill in the blank with "they're kids", "they don't know as
much," "someone has to be in charge," and so on and so on.
But what it all boils down to, regardless of the justification, we
are tearing down a relationship when we assert our authority
over someone weaker. When we take away someone's power to
say no, we are tearing down a good relationship and creating a
relationship of adversaries: Parent vs child. And when there are
adversaries, there is a struggle for power. And when there is a
struggle for power there are winners and losers.
But none of those words: struggle, power, winner, loser have
anything to do with building a loving relationship, do they?
They're all really yucky words to put into a relationship.
And there are better ways to be with kids than as adversaries.
There are ways to live life together, get all the things done that
we feel we'd like to get done *and* build a loving relationship
with our kids.
So we talk about it here. A lot :-)
**We live in the same apartment and as such are a team.**
This is the point that most parents would love to be at :-)
The problem is that being a team doesn't just happen by existing
together. Children aren't born realizing they're part of a team so
they need to pitch in. In fact children are born believing everything
is about them ;-)
Traditional parenting would say that kids need to be taught that
life isn't about them. Traditional parenting would say kids need
to learn to do what parents say so kids can learn that life isn't all
about them.
But what that teaches kids is that life is all about being an adult
so you can be bigger and get your way by telling others what to
do.
(Turn that idea upside down. What if an adult thinks another
adult needs to learn the lesson that others should be taken into
consideration too so starts ordering the other adult around,
making the second adult do what the first adult wants. It just
feels *wrong*. But most parents, even if they see the wrongness
of it, think that's life and kids just have to learn.)
On this list we help people find better ways! :-) We help them see
that we can support kids in their belief that it's all about them.
While *at the same time* helping them see it's all about mom
and big sister and dad too.
The problem is that most parents don't know how to get to a
feeling of "we're a team." Or they think they know but the ways
they'll go about it -- for instance making their kids do chores
because they're a part of a team -- only work for kids who are
very compliant or desperately needing to please. Those ways
tend to have the opposite effect on kids with other personalities.
And when parents don't get the results they expect, when the
kids act resentful of being made to do chores, act as though their
parents care more about the things they're making the kids do
than they do about the kids, the parents wonder what's wrong
with their kids. They wonder why Roberta's daughter is chopping
vegetables happily for her mom while their own kids roll their
eyes and groan and do half-assed jobs.
On this list we help people examine what goes into building
relationship so that we become people our kids want to help :-)
It's not just luck if kids help. There are ways we can relate to kids
that will foster a great relationship.
**Through cooking I teach her her heritage - both sides.**
Teach is another word land mine.
Teach, for many people who are trying to understand
unschooling, is a loaded word. It brings up pictures of a teacher
pushing information into a child.
We try to help people drop that image. And to help them drop that
image we try to help them see how learning is different from
teaching.
(There are ways that teaching is like learning *but* it's examining
how learning is *different* from teaching that helps people get
unschooling.)
Teaching is about pushing information in. Learning is about
someone pulling something they want in.
Once people can turn their thinking around from trying to get
what they want a child to learn into the child to thinking in terms
of what the child wants to pull in for himself, they're a lot closer to
understanding unschooling.
**Surely there are some things we can learn about how to do
chores, but basically they are just something that need to be
done and if not we don't eat, have clean clothes, or a clean
home.**
"Need to" is another word land mine. As you point out while there
are things that we "need to do" it's helpful -- freeing! -- to turn that
picture up side down so we can see it in a new way.
IF we see everything we do as a choice, then it frees us from
some outside mysterious power that's supposedly making us
do such and such.
Lots of people get trapped thinking they "have to" make dinner.
The truth is that they don't. They *choose* to make dinner for
reasons that they don't think are even worth considering. But they
*are* worth considering because if they aren't considered then it
feels like we don't have a choice.
We don't have to make dinner. We could order pizza. We could
eat frozen dinners. We could hire a chef. We could make a
month of meals on one day and put them in the freezer. (The list
could go on.)
But someone might *choose* to make dinner because ... It's
cheaper. It's healthier. It's a way they enjoy showing someone
they care for them. (The list could go on.)
One thing that helped drive this idea home for me is that I always
felt I had to clean the toilet every x number of days. I didn't listen
to the voice ;-) but that voice was there nagging me whenever I
looked at the toilet. And that guilt making voice made me
resentful and rebellious so that I didn't clean the toilet.
But then I stopped and said, no, I don't *have to* clean the toilet.
But sometimes it's really nice for the toilet to be clean. And from
then it became a choice. I no longer *had to* clean the toilet any
more! But sometimes I *chose to* clean the toilet because I
wanted it clean :-) And ever since then, because I know I can say
no anytime I want to, I do clean my toilet more often than when I
"had to".
Does that make any sense?
No one *has to* think that way but it's a really helpful way if
someone finds themselves stuck with the idea of "have to" and
they'd like to change.
It really really really helps on a discussion list to step back from
something you do when it's being discussed and look at it as an
abstract idea. Look at it from a distance as though it's
generalized and not about you any more. Turn it this way and
that. Turn kids into adults. Turn adults into kids. Turn ideas
upside down and inside out. Expand it. If it's a good idea then it
can cover more than one thing. For example many people come
to unschooling thinking it's just about academic learning, that
kids can learn best by learning what interests them. And then
they start thinking, hmm, if that's true, then why is it true only of
academics? Why, if I'll let my child choose when and how to
learn math concepts, am I making her sit at the table and learn
table manners? And they'll expand it more and start questioning
all sorts of things they never thought to question.
Basically this list is for people who want the ideas of how to build
a relationship with their kids, who don't want to do things that will
tear the relationship down.
If you're doing things differently, that's okay. :-) It's just that this
isn't the list to *talk* about how we all do things differently. It's a
place to discuss how we can respect our kids and still manage
to get all the things done we want to and discuss that in ways
that will help others figure out how to make it work for them too.
Joyce
prepare on my own, but she does help me quite often. We live in
the same apartment and as such are a team.**
Roberta, I think the dissonance you may be feeling between
what you're writing and the responses you're getting might have
to do more with word choice than with differing ideas.
First I'd like to reiterate what Sandra said. There are (basically)
two types of unschooling lists. One is for support where people
share what they do and so they can get to know each other. The
other is for discussion. People share problems they're having so
they can discuss it :-) So if there's anything you do that you don't
want people to pull out and say "What do you mean by that?
Have you really examined what you're doing?" it's best not to
post it.
It's not that the list doesn't accept people for who they are. It's
that this list is specifically for discussing ideas. It's *for* holding
practices and thoughts and ideas up to examination.
Rather than a place to kick back and let it all hang out, this is a
place where people come to have their ideas challenged, to look
at life in ways they'd never considered before.
Basically on this list the filter through which ideas pass is
treating children as fellow human beings. If someone presents
an idea where it sounds like the child is being treated in a way
that an adult would be upset to be treated, the idea will raise red
flags for many people. And the idea will be discussed.
**She would have other kitchen duties if not that.**
This might be a word use problem.
"Have" suggests that your daughter has been assigned kitchen
duties by someone else. "Have" suggests that if she doesn't do
them then there will be punishment.
Now that *idea* will raise red flags and people will want to
discuss the *idea* of making children -- not your child, not what
you do in your home -- but the idea of making children do chores.
Step back for a moment and treat this as though it weren't about
what you're doing, but about broader ideas.
Does it help build a good relationship between two humans for
one human to have the power over another to tell them what to
do and to punish them if they don't?
(Step back. This isn't about you. It's about how *people* feel.)
Lots of parents would say no, it doesn't help build a good
relationshp. They'd probably be thinking about their spouse,
saying, "I don't want my husband to tell me what to do and
punish me if I don't!"
And yet, without realizing it, they'd be doing exactly that to their
kids! They'd make their kids do something and punish them (or
make them feel bad or get mad at them or ask them over and
over and over ...) And they'd say "Yes, I'm making her, but ___."
And they'd fill in the blank with "they're kids", "they don't know as
much," "someone has to be in charge," and so on and so on.
But what it all boils down to, regardless of the justification, we
are tearing down a relationship when we assert our authority
over someone weaker. When we take away someone's power to
say no, we are tearing down a good relationship and creating a
relationship of adversaries: Parent vs child. And when there are
adversaries, there is a struggle for power. And when there is a
struggle for power there are winners and losers.
But none of those words: struggle, power, winner, loser have
anything to do with building a loving relationship, do they?
They're all really yucky words to put into a relationship.
And there are better ways to be with kids than as adversaries.
There are ways to live life together, get all the things done that
we feel we'd like to get done *and* build a loving relationship
with our kids.
So we talk about it here. A lot :-)
**We live in the same apartment and as such are a team.**
This is the point that most parents would love to be at :-)
The problem is that being a team doesn't just happen by existing
together. Children aren't born realizing they're part of a team so
they need to pitch in. In fact children are born believing everything
is about them ;-)
Traditional parenting would say that kids need to be taught that
life isn't about them. Traditional parenting would say kids need
to learn to do what parents say so kids can learn that life isn't all
about them.
But what that teaches kids is that life is all about being an adult
so you can be bigger and get your way by telling others what to
do.
(Turn that idea upside down. What if an adult thinks another
adult needs to learn the lesson that others should be taken into
consideration too so starts ordering the other adult around,
making the second adult do what the first adult wants. It just
feels *wrong*. But most parents, even if they see the wrongness
of it, think that's life and kids just have to learn.)
On this list we help people find better ways! :-) We help them see
that we can support kids in their belief that it's all about them.
While *at the same time* helping them see it's all about mom
and big sister and dad too.
The problem is that most parents don't know how to get to a
feeling of "we're a team." Or they think they know but the ways
they'll go about it -- for instance making their kids do chores
because they're a part of a team -- only work for kids who are
very compliant or desperately needing to please. Those ways
tend to have the opposite effect on kids with other personalities.
And when parents don't get the results they expect, when the
kids act resentful of being made to do chores, act as though their
parents care more about the things they're making the kids do
than they do about the kids, the parents wonder what's wrong
with their kids. They wonder why Roberta's daughter is chopping
vegetables happily for her mom while their own kids roll their
eyes and groan and do half-assed jobs.
On this list we help people examine what goes into building
relationship so that we become people our kids want to help :-)
It's not just luck if kids help. There are ways we can relate to kids
that will foster a great relationship.
**Through cooking I teach her her heritage - both sides.**
Teach is another word land mine.
Teach, for many people who are trying to understand
unschooling, is a loaded word. It brings up pictures of a teacher
pushing information into a child.
We try to help people drop that image. And to help them drop that
image we try to help them see how learning is different from
teaching.
(There are ways that teaching is like learning *but* it's examining
how learning is *different* from teaching that helps people get
unschooling.)
Teaching is about pushing information in. Learning is about
someone pulling something they want in.
Once people can turn their thinking around from trying to get
what they want a child to learn into the child to thinking in terms
of what the child wants to pull in for himself, they're a lot closer to
understanding unschooling.
**Surely there are some things we can learn about how to do
chores, but basically they are just something that need to be
done and if not we don't eat, have clean clothes, or a clean
home.**
"Need to" is another word land mine. As you point out while there
are things that we "need to do" it's helpful -- freeing! -- to turn that
picture up side down so we can see it in a new way.
IF we see everything we do as a choice, then it frees us from
some outside mysterious power that's supposedly making us
do such and such.
Lots of people get trapped thinking they "have to" make dinner.
The truth is that they don't. They *choose* to make dinner for
reasons that they don't think are even worth considering. But they
*are* worth considering because if they aren't considered then it
feels like we don't have a choice.
We don't have to make dinner. We could order pizza. We could
eat frozen dinners. We could hire a chef. We could make a
month of meals on one day and put them in the freezer. (The list
could go on.)
But someone might *choose* to make dinner because ... It's
cheaper. It's healthier. It's a way they enjoy showing someone
they care for them. (The list could go on.)
One thing that helped drive this idea home for me is that I always
felt I had to clean the toilet every x number of days. I didn't listen
to the voice ;-) but that voice was there nagging me whenever I
looked at the toilet. And that guilt making voice made me
resentful and rebellious so that I didn't clean the toilet.
But then I stopped and said, no, I don't *have to* clean the toilet.
But sometimes it's really nice for the toilet to be clean. And from
then it became a choice. I no longer *had to* clean the toilet any
more! But sometimes I *chose to* clean the toilet because I
wanted it clean :-) And ever since then, because I know I can say
no anytime I want to, I do clean my toilet more often than when I
"had to".
Does that make any sense?
No one *has to* think that way but it's a really helpful way if
someone finds themselves stuck with the idea of "have to" and
they'd like to change.
It really really really helps on a discussion list to step back from
something you do when it's being discussed and look at it as an
abstract idea. Look at it from a distance as though it's
generalized and not about you any more. Turn it this way and
that. Turn kids into adults. Turn adults into kids. Turn ideas
upside down and inside out. Expand it. If it's a good idea then it
can cover more than one thing. For example many people come
to unschooling thinking it's just about academic learning, that
kids can learn best by learning what interests them. And then
they start thinking, hmm, if that's true, then why is it true only of
academics? Why, if I'll let my child choose when and how to
learn math concepts, am I making her sit at the table and learn
table manners? And they'll expand it more and start questioning
all sorts of things they never thought to question.
Basically this list is for people who want the ideas of how to build
a relationship with their kids, who don't want to do things that will
tear the relationship down.
If you're doing things differently, that's okay. :-) It's just that this
isn't the list to *talk* about how we all do things differently. It's a
place to discuss how we can respect our kids and still manage
to get all the things done we want to and discuss that in ways
that will help others figure out how to make it work for them too.
Joyce
Rue Kream
>>Surely there are some things we can learn about how to do chores, butbasically they are just
something that need to be done and if not we don't eat, have clean clothes,
or a clean home.
**I don't think learning *how* to do chores is very difficult. It doesn't
take long to master turning on the washing machine or scrubbing a toilet
:o). I see some much more important learning taking place with my kids (who
have never had 'chores') with regards to housework. I see them learning that
it feels good to help each other and I see them learning that the time we
spend working together is a really valuable, companionable, often-times fun
part of our relationships. I see them learning that when we are aware that
we *do* have choices we can more happily go about doing the things we choose
to do. What I don't see them learning is that housework is drudgery or that
Jon and I think they won't help unless we make them.
>>They are not the same to me as reading and learning skills that follow ourpassions.
**For our family it's all learning. It's all life. How do you determine
what you can trust your daughter to learn and what you have to teach her?
~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Thanks to everyone who challenged my thinking about chores...much food for
thought.
Someone mentioned that it was important to figure out what helped develop
the positive relationships in our family. This has been interesting to think
about. I can't say for certain, and certainly I can't answer for my children
(but I plan to ask them when we get together tomorrow night), but from my
angle, what I felt with our family was that we were all in "it" whatever the
"it" was together -- that we were a family. I think I had developed the sense
of the importance of this from my family of origin; I was the oldest of nine
children, and we were poor and always on the fringe, even with relatives, most
of whom lived close by, so that we could really feel the hurt from lack of
inclusion. So, we developed a sense of family because we were isolated. I
wanted to develop a sense of family from a positive perspective, with shared
goals/responsibilities, fun times and such. I won't pretend I did this well; I
think I mostly did the best I could at the time, building on what I knew
worked and didn't work from my family of origin. Now I see my daughter building
an even stronger family, and I learn much from her, and I take comfort in
the fact that my family, as it moves through the generations, is becoming
healthier with each generation.
Thanks again for giving me so many ideas to think about; I appreciate this
list because so many members are willing to offer their insight and
perspective.
Diane
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thought.
Someone mentioned that it was important to figure out what helped develop
the positive relationships in our family. This has been interesting to think
about. I can't say for certain, and certainly I can't answer for my children
(but I plan to ask them when we get together tomorrow night), but from my
angle, what I felt with our family was that we were all in "it" whatever the
"it" was together -- that we were a family. I think I had developed the sense
of the importance of this from my family of origin; I was the oldest of nine
children, and we were poor and always on the fringe, even with relatives, most
of whom lived close by, so that we could really feel the hurt from lack of
inclusion. So, we developed a sense of family because we were isolated. I
wanted to develop a sense of family from a positive perspective, with shared
goals/responsibilities, fun times and such. I won't pretend I did this well; I
think I mostly did the best I could at the time, building on what I knew
worked and didn't work from my family of origin. Now I see my daughter building
an even stronger family, and I learn much from her, and I take comfort in
the fact that my family, as it moves through the generations, is becoming
healthier with each generation.
Thanks again for giving me so many ideas to think about; I appreciate this
list because so many members are willing to offer their insight and
perspective.
Diane
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/05 9:23:38 AM, diane@... writes:
are so clearly focussed on what's good for kids that it amazes me. I think
they'll be great parents.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Now I see my daughter buildingWhen my kids talk about what other families are doing with their kids, they
> an even stronger family, and I learn much from her, and I take comfort in
> the fact that my family, as it moves through the generations, is becoming
> healthier with each generation.
>
>
are so clearly focussed on what's good for kids that it amazes me. I think
they'll be great parents.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]