Help me explain this....
Joylyn
on another list, which I have been on for years (nearly 8) I am the only
homeschooler. Recently someone asked me some questions. This is a very
private list, we've been together for almost 8 years and all of our kids
are exactly the same age. Someone brought up a friend they know who
homeschools for religious reasons and isolates her child and doesn't let
her child be with other kids or read books, etc. She thinks that
homeschoolers should be monitored, parents should be tested to see if
they are qualified, kids should be tested, homestudies done, etc. AHHH.
She said this
A child who is going to school outside of the home is being assessed
regularly by outsiders -- school teachers, school nurse, librarian etc,
so that is already being done. Not that these always work but at least
it is something.
Why should homeschoolers feel that this is an infringement of their
rights. It is the right of every child to be safe from physical and mental
abuse.
So help me with words....
Joylyn
homeschooler. Recently someone asked me some questions. This is a very
private list, we've been together for almost 8 years and all of our kids
are exactly the same age. Someone brought up a friend they know who
homeschools for religious reasons and isolates her child and doesn't let
her child be with other kids or read books, etc. She thinks that
homeschoolers should be monitored, parents should be tested to see if
they are qualified, kids should be tested, homestudies done, etc. AHHH.
She said this
A child who is going to school outside of the home is being assessed
regularly by outsiders -- school teachers, school nurse, librarian etc,
so that is already being done. Not that these always work but at least
it is something.
Why should homeschoolers feel that this is an infringement of their
rights. It is the right of every child to be safe from physical and mental
abuse.
So help me with words....
Joylyn
Pam Hartley
----------
men, since they commit 99.999% of rapes, have a curfew, or have to be
escorted everywhere they walk by 2 women? Why not? Why shouldn't all men pay
the price for the misdeeds of a few?
When you start legislating away the rights of law-abiding citizens in a
(typically fruitless) effort to catch a few criminals, you legislate away
the freedoms this country is founded on. That's why.
Pam
>From: Joylyn <joylyn@...>It is the right of every woman to walk unmolested down the street. Should
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Help me explain this....
>Date: Mon, Jan 20, 2003, 7:28 PM
>
> Why should homeschoolers feel that this is an infringement of their
> rights. It is the right of every child to be safe from physical and mental
> abuse.
men, since they commit 99.999% of rapes, have a curfew, or have to be
escorted everywhere they walk by 2 women? Why not? Why shouldn't all men pay
the price for the misdeeds of a few?
When you start legislating away the rights of law-abiding citizens in a
(typically fruitless) effort to catch a few criminals, you legislate away
the freedoms this country is founded on. That's why.
Pam
Pam Sorooshian
Joylyn,
Is the child so isolated that they don't even let this "friend" ever
have contact? If your friend has contact with the child, then there ya
go - if SHE is aware of physical or mental abuse then she can report
it. Not letting kids be with other kids and even not letting them have
books is NOT abuse in and of itself.
--pam
Is the child so isolated that they don't even let this "friend" ever
have contact? If your friend has contact with the child, then there ya
go - if SHE is aware of physical or mental abuse then she can report
it. Not letting kids be with other kids and even not letting them have
books is NOT abuse in and of itself.
--pam
On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 07:28 PM, Joylyn wrote:
> Why should homeschoolers feel that this is an infringement of their
> rights. It is the right of every child to be safe from physical and
> mental
> abuse.
Pam Sorooshian
The National Home Education Network
~The World is Our Classroom~
www.NHEN.org
Aileen Bath
Hi --
You could look up statistics of incidents of abuse in schools. Sadly, the Teachers, School Nurses, Librarians, etc.... often don't see the abuse in schools. Often the children don't feel safe telling an adult for fear that the abuse will be worse the next time.
She does have a point, it is the right of every child to be free from Physical/Mental abuse. That is why we are homeschooling. If my child went to our local neighborhood school here in Philadelphia, I guarantee you that she would have very negative experiences. And the Philadelphia SD is notorious for not doing much about abusive situations.
Last year I received a phone call from a mom in Philadelphia who was desperate to pull her 1st grader out of public school. Why? Her poor dd was coming home beaten up and bruised. Who was beating her up? Other 1st graders. What was the school doing about it? Last I heard, they were homeschooling.
I helped another area mom last year -- she pulled her son out of a "better public school" -- he was in 6th grade and coming home beaten up. Some kids also threatended his life. Was the school willing to do anything about it? No. The mom had a horrible time -- but fortunately now she's HS'ing.
So, I think that people with such "assumptions" really need to understand that parents have the ultimate right to keep their kid(s) safe from harm, not the government schools. Can abuse happen in the homes of homeschoolers? Of course. But the question also needs to be asked, Can abuse happen in the homes of non-homeschoolers? Of course. Does going to school REALLY protect a child? No.
Just my two cents,
Aileen
You could look up statistics of incidents of abuse in schools. Sadly, the Teachers, School Nurses, Librarians, etc.... often don't see the abuse in schools. Often the children don't feel safe telling an adult for fear that the abuse will be worse the next time.
She does have a point, it is the right of every child to be free from Physical/Mental abuse. That is why we are homeschooling. If my child went to our local neighborhood school here in Philadelphia, I guarantee you that she would have very negative experiences. And the Philadelphia SD is notorious for not doing much about abusive situations.
Last year I received a phone call from a mom in Philadelphia who was desperate to pull her 1st grader out of public school. Why? Her poor dd was coming home beaten up and bruised. Who was beating her up? Other 1st graders. What was the school doing about it? Last I heard, they were homeschooling.
I helped another area mom last year -- she pulled her son out of a "better public school" -- he was in 6th grade and coming home beaten up. Some kids also threatended his life. Was the school willing to do anything about it? No. The mom had a horrible time -- but fortunately now she's HS'ing.
So, I think that people with such "assumptions" really need to understand that parents have the ultimate right to keep their kid(s) safe from harm, not the government schools. Can abuse happen in the homes of homeschoolers? Of course. But the question also needs to be asked, Can abuse happen in the homes of non-homeschoolers? Of course. Does going to school REALLY protect a child? No.
Just my two cents,
Aileen
----- Original Message -----
From: Joylyn
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:28 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Help me explain this....
on another list, which I have been on for years (nearly 8) I am the only
homeschooler. Recently someone asked me some questions. This is a very
private list, we've been together for almost 8 years and all of our kids
are exactly the same age. Someone brought up a friend they know who
homeschools for religious reasons and isolates her child and doesn't let
her child be with other kids or read books, etc. She thinks that
homeschoolers should be monitored, parents should be tested to see if
they are qualified, kids should be tested, homestudies done, etc. AHHH.
She said this
A child who is going to school outside of the home is being assessed
regularly by outsiders -- school teachers, school nurse, librarian etc,
so that is already being done. Not that these always work but at least
it is something.
Why should homeschoolers feel that this is an infringement of their
rights. It is the right of every child to be safe from physical and mental
abuse.
So help me with words....
Joylyn
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Aileen Bath
Oops! Time to fix a mistake -- I should have wrote "nothing" between the last two sentences of this paragraph.
<<Last year I received a phone call from a mom in Philadelphia who was desperate to pull her 1st grader out of public school. Why? Her poor dd was coming home beaten up and bruised. Who was beating her up? Other 1st graders. What was the school doing about it? (Nothing). Last I heard, they were homeschooling.
<<Last year I received a phone call from a mom in Philadelphia who was desperate to pull her 1st grader out of public school. Why? Her poor dd was coming home beaten up and bruised. Who was beating her up? Other 1st graders. What was the school doing about it? (Nothing). Last I heard, they were homeschooling.
----- Original Message -----
From: Aileen Bath
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Help me explain this....
Hi --
You could look up statistics of incidents of abuse in schools. Sadly, the Teachers, School Nurses, Librarians, etc.... often don't see the abuse in schools. Often the children don't feel safe telling an adult for fear that the abuse will be worse the next time.
She does have a point, it is the right of every child to be free from Physical/Mental abuse. That is why we are homeschooling. If my child went to our local neighborhood school here in Philadelphia, I guarantee you that she would have very negative experiences. And the Philadelphia SD is notorious for not doing much about abusive situations.
Last year I received a phone call from a mom in Philadelphia who was desperate to pull her 1st grader out of public school. Why? Her poor dd was coming home beaten up and bruised. Who was beating her up? Other 1st graders. What was the school doing about it? Last I heard, they were homeschooling.
I helped another area mom last year -- she pulled her son out of a "better public school" -- he was in 6th grade and coming home beaten up. Some kids also threatended his life. Was the school willing to do anything about it? No. The mom had a horrible time -- but fortunately now she's HS'ing.
So, I think that people with such "assumptions" really need to understand that parents have the ultimate right to keep their kid(s) safe from harm, not the government schools. Can abuse happen in the homes of homeschoolers? Of course. But the question also needs to be asked, Can abuse happen in the homes of non-homeschoolers? Of course. Does going to school REALLY protect a child? No.
Just my two cents,
Aileen
----- Original Message -----
From: Joylyn
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:28 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Help me explain this....
on another list, which I have been on for years (nearly 8) I am the only
homeschooler. Recently someone asked me some questions. This is a very
private list, we've been together for almost 8 years and all of our kids
are exactly the same age. Someone brought up a friend they know who
homeschools for religious reasons and isolates her child and doesn't let
her child be with other kids or read books, etc. She thinks that
homeschoolers should be monitored, parents should be tested to see if
they are qualified, kids should be tested, homestudies done, etc. AHHH.
She said this
A child who is going to school outside of the home is being assessed
regularly by outsiders -- school teachers, school nurse, librarian etc,
so that is already being done. Not that these always work but at least
it is something.
Why should homeschoolers feel that this is an infringement of their
rights. It is the right of every child to be safe from physical and mental
abuse.
So help me with words....
Joylyn
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
** Someone brought up a friend they know who
homeschools for religious reasons and isolates her child and doesn't let
her child be with other kids or read books, etc. She thinks that
homeschoolers should be monitored, parents should be tested to see if
they are qualified, kids should be tested, homestudies done, etc. AHHH.
She said this
A child who is going to school outside of the home is being assessed
regularly by outsiders -- school teachers, school nurse, librarian etc,
so that is already being done. Not that these always work but at least
it is something.
Why should homeschoolers feel that this is an infringement of their
rights. It is the right of every child to be safe from physical and mental
abuse.
So help me with words.... **
Hi, Joylyn --
Did she have rotten parents? Is she reacting to that?
Has she heard urban legends about horrible homeschooling parents and
does she believe them? Does she have distorted ideas about how much
child abuse there is in the world, as opposed to child neglect?
Does deviation from social norms make her nervous? Would she prefer
enforced conformity?
I think there is some simplified, "magical" thinking going on in her
head. Doesn't she understand that screening and testing by outsiders to
check for good parenting can't be 100% accurate? Does she understand
the harm that is done by removing children from decent parents (in
error) and placing them with strangers in foster care. Does she think
that government screening guarantees that temporary guardians will
always be well behaved and infallibly good to children?
Betsy
homeschools for religious reasons and isolates her child and doesn't let
her child be with other kids or read books, etc. She thinks that
homeschoolers should be monitored, parents should be tested to see if
they are qualified, kids should be tested, homestudies done, etc. AHHH.
She said this
A child who is going to school outside of the home is being assessed
regularly by outsiders -- school teachers, school nurse, librarian etc,
so that is already being done. Not that these always work but at least
it is something.
Why should homeschoolers feel that this is an infringement of their
rights. It is the right of every child to be safe from physical and mental
abuse.
So help me with words.... **
Hi, Joylyn --
Did she have rotten parents? Is she reacting to that?
Has she heard urban legends about horrible homeschooling parents and
does she believe them? Does she have distorted ideas about how much
child abuse there is in the world, as opposed to child neglect?
Does deviation from social norms make her nervous? Would she prefer
enforced conformity?
I think there is some simplified, "magical" thinking going on in her
head. Doesn't she understand that screening and testing by outsiders to
check for good parenting can't be 100% accurate? Does she understand
the harm that is done by removing children from decent parents (in
error) and placing them with strangers in foster care. Does she think
that government screening guarantees that temporary guardians will
always be well behaved and infallibly good to children?
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/20/03 8:05:28 PM Pacific Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
<<
It is the right of every woman to walk unmolested down the street. Should
men, since they commit 99.999% of rapes, have a curfew, or have to be
escorted everywhere they walk by 2 women? Why not? Why shouldn't all men pay
the price for the misdeeds of a few?
When you start legislating away the rights of law-abiding citizens in a
(typically fruitless) effort to catch a few criminals, you legislate away
the freedoms this country is founded on. That's why. >>
This makes so much sense! I wish I had read this when we had a local
politician at a Barnes & Noble hs'ers night here locally. They kept worrying
about the ones slipping through the cracks! We sure had some eloquent
hsing moms speaking up, but they (politicians) just didn't get it. Your
analogy
really makes sense Pam. Can I use it for future reference?
Kathy
pamhartley@... writes:
<<
It is the right of every woman to walk unmolested down the street. Should
men, since they commit 99.999% of rapes, have a curfew, or have to be
escorted everywhere they walk by 2 women? Why not? Why shouldn't all men pay
the price for the misdeeds of a few?
When you start legislating away the rights of law-abiding citizens in a
(typically fruitless) effort to catch a few criminals, you legislate away
the freedoms this country is founded on. That's why. >>
This makes so much sense! I wish I had read this when we had a local
politician at a Barnes & Noble hs'ers night here locally. They kept worrying
about the ones slipping through the cracks! We sure had some eloquent
hsing moms speaking up, but they (politicians) just didn't get it. Your
analogy
really makes sense Pam. Can I use it for future reference?
Kathy
Pam Hartley
You're welcome to it. :)
Pam
----------
Pam
----------
>From: Natrlmama@...
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Help me explain this....
>Date: Tue, Jan 21, 2003, 8:27 AM
>
> This makes so much sense! I wish I had read this when we had a local
> politician at a Barnes & Noble hs'ers night here locally. They kept worrying
> about the ones slipping through the cracks! We sure had some eloquent
> hsing moms speaking up, but they (politicians) just didn't get it. Your
> analogy
> really makes sense Pam. Can I use it for future reference?
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/20/03 7:39:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:
read George Orwell? This is the classic, "I don't like the way they are
doing this and I want the "state" to take care of it." If she is convinced
of abuse why isn't she calling social services herself? Has she spoken the
this "friend"? Actually, none of what the hs family is doing is illegal, we
may not like it, it may be wrong but it's legal.
To follow this line of reasoning all homes raising children should be
monitored from the day of birth. After all, infants and toddlers are even
MORE vulnerable; not able to talk. They are also more likely to behave in
ways that trigger abuse; crying, potty training accidents, etc.
"Assessment" isn't stopping abuse for schooled children, it wouldn't be a
magic bullet for home schooled kids either. All this and the simple fact
that it's wrong to infringe on the liberties of families because of the few
who do wrong.
Kris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn@... writes:
> A child who is going to school outside of the home is being assessedDo people like this even listen to themselves when they speak? Haven't they
> regularly by outsiders -- school teachers, school nurse, librarian etc,
> so that is already being done. Not that these always work but at least
> it is something.
>
read George Orwell? This is the classic, "I don't like the way they are
doing this and I want the "state" to take care of it." If she is convinced
of abuse why isn't she calling social services herself? Has she spoken the
this "friend"? Actually, none of what the hs family is doing is illegal, we
may not like it, it may be wrong but it's legal.
To follow this line of reasoning all homes raising children should be
monitored from the day of birth. After all, infants and toddlers are even
MORE vulnerable; not able to talk. They are also more likely to behave in
ways that trigger abuse; crying, potty training accidents, etc.
"Assessment" isn't stopping abuse for schooled children, it wouldn't be a
magic bullet for home schooled kids either. All this and the simple fact
that it's wrong to infringe on the liberties of families because of the few
who do wrong.
Kris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peggy
> From: Joylyn <joylyn@...>When I first starting thinking and talking to others about
>
> on another list, which I have been on for years (nearly 8) I am the only
> homeschooler. Recently someone asked me some questions. This is a very
> private list, we've been together for almost 8 years and all of our kids
> are exactly the same age. Someone brought up a friend they know who
> homeschools for religious reasons and isolates her child and doesn't let
> her child be with other kids or read books, etc. She thinks that
> homeschoolers should be monitored, parents should be tested to see if
> they are qualified, kids should be tested, homestudies done, etc. AHHH.
> She said this
>
> A child who is going to school outside of the home is being assessed
> regularly by outsiders -- school teachers, school nurse, librarian etc,
> so that is already being done. Not that these always work but at least
> it is something.
homeschooling, I too was concerned about children in isolation with
no one to help them if they were being abused. I think this is still
a valid concern for a very small percentage of homeschoolers. School
can be the best situation for some children and I've seen up front
and personal some of those situations in real life. But, to put it
in perspective, this isn't just true for homeschoolers but for all
segments of the population. It isn't an education problem at all, it
is a parenting problem. I've talked to grown up children who were
abused at home and went to school and the abuse still went on and no
one "saved" them.
>It seems as though the underlying assumption behind the question is
> Why should homeschoolers feel that this is an infringement of their
> rights. It is the right of every child to be safe from physical and mental
> abuse.
>
> So help me with words....
> Joylyn
that testing is valid measurement of how a child is doing. It seems
as if the person asking this question isn't just asking if a child
is well cared for but also if they are "up to educational
standards". That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish when talking to
schoolers: some don't know what goes on with testing and you need to
discuss that, some do know what goes on with testing and are happy
about it because it provides a population their children can show
superiority over. ;) So I would approach it different ways depending
on the audience.
I'd probably start by pricking holes in their assumptions about how
well schools are doing for their children today.
Alfie Kohn == The Schools Our Children Deserve
Frank Smith == The Book of Learning and Forgetting
Steven Harrison == The Happy Child: Changing the Heart of Education
These three books all offer strong arguments for finding good
alternatives and well researched examples of how schools today are
not meeting students real needs and how testing is not only an
invalid indication of competence but counterproductive.
Peggy
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/21/03 2:34:20 PM, durrell@... writes:
<< I'd probably start by pricking holes in their assumptions about how
well schools are doing for their children today.
Alfie Kohn == The Schools Our Children Deserve
Frank Smith == The Book of Learning and Forgetting
Steven Harrison == The Happy Child: Changing the Heart of Education
Let others defend your point so you don't have to do so much work!
Just let her know her assumptions are invalid, and if she wants to do the
work to find out why and how, she can.
I have thoughts about the original question, but they're not gelling yet.
I'll keep thinking.
My original objections to homeschooling were hers. Fear of abuse. Teachers
know abusers keep kids home until bruises go away. I knew that as a teacher.
Sandra
<< I'd probably start by pricking holes in their assumptions about how
well schools are doing for their children today.
Alfie Kohn == The Schools Our Children Deserve
Frank Smith == The Book of Learning and Forgetting
Steven Harrison == The Happy Child: Changing the Heart of Education
>>Great idea.
Let others defend your point so you don't have to do so much work!
Just let her know her assumptions are invalid, and if she wants to do the
work to find out why and how, she can.
I have thoughts about the original question, but they're not gelling yet.
I'll keep thinking.
My original objections to homeschooling were hers. Fear of abuse. Teachers
know abusers keep kids home until bruises go away. I knew that as a teacher.
Sandra
Betsy
**
Steven Harrison == The Happy Child: Changing the Heart of Education**
Hi, Peggy --
I haven't read this one. Would you be willing to tell us a little more
about it?
Betsy
Steven Harrison == The Happy Child: Changing the Heart of Education**
Hi, Peggy --
I haven't read this one. Would you be willing to tell us a little more
about it?
Betsy
Peggy
> Steven Harrison == The Happy Child: Changing the Heart of Education**This is off the back cover , I bought mine used at www.half.com.
>
> Hi, Peggy --
>
> I haven't read this one. Would you be willing to tell us a little more
> about it?
>
> Betsy
Peggy
"In all the discussion about how best to teach children, we don't
often hear about the purpose of education other than as a social
obligation and the preparation of the child for the adult world of
work. We don't hear much about the child, and almost nothing *from*
the child.
Perhaps all that education aspires to be is the preparation of the
young person for their role in the larger society. This is certainly
a good idea for society, but in the efficiency of producing citizen
workers, are we missing the deeper meaning and higher purpose of
learning? Have we forgotten about the spirit of the child, the
purpose of this one life, the unique and fragile expression of a
passionate and integrated life?" -- from The Happy Child
Children naturally want to learn, Steven Harrison asserts in The
Happy Child, so let them direct their own education--in democratic
learning communities, where they can interact seamlessly with their
neighborhoods, their towns, and the world at large. Part social
critic, part humanitarian visionary, Harrison not only describes a
reorientation of education, but the possibility of rethinking our
families, our communities, and workplaces, and ultimately what gives
our children -- and all of us -- real happiness.
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
Wow, the back jacket of 'happy child' sounds like a synopsis of one of the
chapters of "Escape from Childhood: the needs and rights of children" by
John Holt. I was just re-reading part of it the other day. An awesome
book that helps a body think differently about children and respect (and
the general lack thereof.) Unfortunately, it's out of print so if you see
one, snap it up! I think it was written in the late 70's or early 80's,
but maybe it was later still...
Heidi
chapters of "Escape from Childhood: the needs and rights of children" by
John Holt. I was just re-reading part of it the other day. An awesome
book that helps a body think differently about children and respect (and
the general lack thereof.) Unfortunately, it's out of print so if you see
one, snap it up! I think it was written in the late 70's or early 80's,
but maybe it was later still...
Heidi
Joylyn
Thanks, everyone for their replies. I put them all together into my own
thoughts and hopefully wrote a reply to the list that maybe they will
read.
Joylyn
louisaem@... wrote:
thoughts and hopefully wrote a reply to the list that maybe they will
read.
Joylyn
louisaem@... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/20/03 7:39:18 PM Pacific Standard Time,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> joylyn@... writes:
>
>
> > A child who is going to school outside of the home is being assessed
> > regularly by outsiders -- school teachers, school nurse, librarian etc,
> > so that is already being done. Not that these always work but at least
> > it is something.
> >
>
> Do people like this even listen to themselves when they speak?
> Haven't they
> read George Orwell? This is the classic, "I don't like the way they are
> doing this and I want the "state" to take care of it." If she is
> convinced
> of abuse why isn't she calling social services herself? Has she
> spoken the
> this "friend"? Actually, none of what the hs family is doing is
> illegal, we
> may not like it, it may be wrong but it's legal.
>
> To follow this line of reasoning all homes raising children should be
> monitored from the day of birth. After all, infants and toddlers are
> even
> MORE vulnerable; not able to talk. They are also more likely to
> behave in
> ways that trigger abuse; crying, potty training accidents, etc.
>
> "Assessment" isn't stopping abuse for schooled children, it wouldn't be a
> magic bullet for home schooled kids either. All this and the simple fact
> that it's wrong to infringe on the liberties of families because of
> the few
> who do wrong.
>
> Kris
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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