a sad problem
[email protected]
I have a sad homeschooling problem, but it's not my family.
It's my friend. Another mom of three. Not on this list, not on any of the
lists. Not unschooling, though I met her at an unschooling conference years
ago.
Her husband is being a sadistic prick. There's not nicer way to say it.
For most of a year, when she's talked about divorce I've talked her out of
it. I was afraid it would cause the kids to be unceremoniously slammed into
school, cause her to have to find a job and move into an apartment (she's
trained as a teacher, but once people have homeschooled it's hard for many of
them to even THINK about going back into the classroom) and suffer knowing
that when the kids are with their dad he can be as unreasonably strict and
non-communicative as he wants to be.
He's especially harsh with the middle child, who is most like his mother.
Obvious situation.
I like every member of this family individually. All grouped up, it's a
mess. The mom is really good with the kids, but the dad undermines and is
becoming more and more irrational. Maybe it's mid-life crisis. He's young,
though, 41. Maybe it's some kind of mental illness but there is NO WAY he
will go for help on something like that. He wouldn't even go to a marriage
counsellor unless it was a male Christian counsellor.
So I'm a confidant of the mom, a haven for the kids, but I have a streak (or
a lump) of stabbing sadness and fear that their seeing our happy unschooling
is part of what's making them all so unhappy. Their knowing that at OUR
house nobody is punished for not wanting to finish a piece of bread at dinner
is making their life worse. Their knowing that at our house nobody is woken
up at 5:00 because a chore wasn't finished will contribute NOTHING to keeping
their family together.
So I feel like a contributing factor.
No sense feeling sorry for myself. I'm in a safe place with a sweet husband
and busy kids. But out of the corner of my eye that disaster is playing
slowly out, and I'll have another phone conversation this afternoon, or one
in person tomorrow, and I won't know what to say or do to keep from making
things worse by just being me. I would like to be a strength to my friend,
rather than the low spot in her wall where all the potential for trying again
to homeschool and to parent to suit her husband just floods out.
Sandra
It's my friend. Another mom of three. Not on this list, not on any of the
lists. Not unschooling, though I met her at an unschooling conference years
ago.
Her husband is being a sadistic prick. There's not nicer way to say it.
For most of a year, when she's talked about divorce I've talked her out of
it. I was afraid it would cause the kids to be unceremoniously slammed into
school, cause her to have to find a job and move into an apartment (she's
trained as a teacher, but once people have homeschooled it's hard for many of
them to even THINK about going back into the classroom) and suffer knowing
that when the kids are with their dad he can be as unreasonably strict and
non-communicative as he wants to be.
He's especially harsh with the middle child, who is most like his mother.
Obvious situation.
I like every member of this family individually. All grouped up, it's a
mess. The mom is really good with the kids, but the dad undermines and is
becoming more and more irrational. Maybe it's mid-life crisis. He's young,
though, 41. Maybe it's some kind of mental illness but there is NO WAY he
will go for help on something like that. He wouldn't even go to a marriage
counsellor unless it was a male Christian counsellor.
So I'm a confidant of the mom, a haven for the kids, but I have a streak (or
a lump) of stabbing sadness and fear that their seeing our happy unschooling
is part of what's making them all so unhappy. Their knowing that at OUR
house nobody is punished for not wanting to finish a piece of bread at dinner
is making their life worse. Their knowing that at our house nobody is woken
up at 5:00 because a chore wasn't finished will contribute NOTHING to keeping
their family together.
So I feel like a contributing factor.
No sense feeling sorry for myself. I'm in a safe place with a sweet husband
and busy kids. But out of the corner of my eye that disaster is playing
slowly out, and I'll have another phone conversation this afternoon, or one
in person tomorrow, and I won't know what to say or do to keep from making
things worse by just being me. I would like to be a strength to my friend,
rather than the low spot in her wall where all the potential for trying again
to homeschool and to parent to suit her husband just floods out.
Sandra
Debra Burk
Dear Sandra,
That is really a tough situation. I've been there before, too. You have to be so careful about what you say or do...you never know what will offend or hurt. I'll be praying for you that you will say the right thing. Think about how grateful she is to have someone to confide in and get it off her chest. It's awesome that you're there for her and can give her support. Probably what she needs right now is just a friend...someone who listens non-judgementally and loves her unconditionally. Thank God you are there for her! hang in there, sweetie!
Hugs,
Deb, wife of 28 years, SAHM homeschooling mother of 6-24 to 8
Tired? Need more energy? I know I did! Check out www.myseasilver.com/debbieburk Try a bottle, it's free! No more sick kids, tired moms or worn out dads!
----- Original message ---------------------------------------->
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Received: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:23:06 EST
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] a sad problem
I have a sad homeschooling problem, but it's not my family.
It's my friend. Another mom of three. Not on this list, not on any of the
lists. Not unschooling, though I met her at an unschooling conference years
ago.
Her husband is being a sadistic prick. There's not nicer way to say it.
For most of a year, when she's talked about divorce I've talked her out of
it. I was afraid it would cause the kids to be unceremoniously slammed into
school, cause her to have to find a job and move into an apartment (she's
trained as a teacher, but once people have homeschooled it's hard for many of
them to even THINK about going back into the classroom) and suffer knowing
that when the kids are with their dad he can be as unreasonably strict and
non-communicative as he wants to be.
He's especially harsh with the middle child, who is most like his mother.
Obvious situation.
I like every member of this family individually. All grouped up, it's a
mess. The mom is really good with the kids, but the dad undermines and is
becoming more and more irrational. Maybe it's mid-life crisis. He's young,
though, 41. Maybe it's some kind of mental illness but there is NO WAY he
will go for help on something like that. He wouldn't even go to a marriage
counsellor unless it was a male Christian counsellor.
So I'm a confidant of the mom, a haven for the kids, but I have a streak (or
a lump) of stabbing sadness and fear that their seeing our happy unschooling
is part of what's making them all so unhappy. Their knowing that at OUR
house nobody is punished for not wanting to finish a piece of bread at dinner
is making their life worse. Their knowing that at our house nobody is woken
up at 5:00 because a chore wasn't finished will contribute NOTHING to keeping
their family together.
So I feel like a contributing factor.
No sense feeling sorry for myself. I'm in a safe place with a sweet husband
and busy kids. But out of the corner of my eye that disaster is playing
slowly out, and I'll have another phone conversation this afternoon, or one
in person tomorrow, and I won't know what to say or do to keep from making
things worse by just being me. I would like to be a strength to my friend,
rather than the low spot in her wall where all the potential for trying again
to homeschool and to parent to suit her husband just floods out.
Sandra
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That is really a tough situation. I've been there before, too. You have to be so careful about what you say or do...you never know what will offend or hurt. I'll be praying for you that you will say the right thing. Think about how grateful she is to have someone to confide in and get it off her chest. It's awesome that you're there for her and can give her support. Probably what she needs right now is just a friend...someone who listens non-judgementally and loves her unconditionally. Thank God you are there for her! hang in there, sweetie!
Hugs,
Deb, wife of 28 years, SAHM homeschooling mother of 6-24 to 8
Tired? Need more energy? I know I did! Check out www.myseasilver.com/debbieburk Try a bottle, it's free! No more sick kids, tired moms or worn out dads!
----- Original message ---------------------------------------->
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Received: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 11:23:06 EST
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] a sad problem
I have a sad homeschooling problem, but it's not my family.
It's my friend. Another mom of three. Not on this list, not on any of the
lists. Not unschooling, though I met her at an unschooling conference years
ago.
Her husband is being a sadistic prick. There's not nicer way to say it.
For most of a year, when she's talked about divorce I've talked her out of
it. I was afraid it would cause the kids to be unceremoniously slammed into
school, cause her to have to find a job and move into an apartment (she's
trained as a teacher, but once people have homeschooled it's hard for many of
them to even THINK about going back into the classroom) and suffer knowing
that when the kids are with their dad he can be as unreasonably strict and
non-communicative as he wants to be.
He's especially harsh with the middle child, who is most like his mother.
Obvious situation.
I like every member of this family individually. All grouped up, it's a
mess. The mom is really good with the kids, but the dad undermines and is
becoming more and more irrational. Maybe it's mid-life crisis. He's young,
though, 41. Maybe it's some kind of mental illness but there is NO WAY he
will go for help on something like that. He wouldn't even go to a marriage
counsellor unless it was a male Christian counsellor.
So I'm a confidant of the mom, a haven for the kids, but I have a streak (or
a lump) of stabbing sadness and fear that their seeing our happy unschooling
is part of what's making them all so unhappy. Their knowing that at OUR
house nobody is punished for not wanting to finish a piece of bread at dinner
is making their life worse. Their knowing that at our house nobody is woken
up at 5:00 because a chore wasn't finished will contribute NOTHING to keeping
their family together.
So I feel like a contributing factor.
No sense feeling sorry for myself. I'm in a safe place with a sweet husband
and busy kids. But out of the corner of my eye that disaster is playing
slowly out, and I'll have another phone conversation this afternoon, or one
in person tomorrow, and I won't know what to say or do to keep from making
things worse by just being me. I would like to be a strength to my friend,
rather than the low spot in her wall where all the potential for trying again
to homeschool and to parent to suit her husband just floods out.
Sandra
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
----------
have to live.
I know it's cold comfort, but having seen your family at least gives those
kids a shot at being different with their own kids.
And maybe, MAYBE, if she divorces him he'll be one of those dads who loses
interest in the kids at all. Maybe he'll find a new wife and she'll
discourage him from having the old kids around.
Pam
>From: SandraDodd@...Poor family. :( My stepfather was like that, and it was a horrible way to
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [AlwaysLearning] a sad problem
>Date: Fri, Jan 10, 2003, 8:23 AM
>
> So I'm a confidant of the mom, a haven for the kids, but I have a streak (or
> a lump) of stabbing sadness and fear that their seeing our happy unschooling
> is part of what's making them all so unhappy. Their knowing that at OUR
> house nobody is punished for not wanting to finish a piece of bread at dinner
> is making their life worse. Their knowing that at our house nobody is woken
> up at 5:00 because a chore wasn't finished will contribute NOTHING to keeping
> their family together.
>
> So I feel like a contributing factor.
have to live.
I know it's cold comfort, but having seen your family at least gives those
kids a shot at being different with their own kids.
And maybe, MAYBE, if she divorces him he'll be one of those dads who loses
interest in the kids at all. Maybe he'll find a new wife and she'll
discourage him from having the old kids around.
Pam
marji
At 11:23 1/10/03 -0500, you wrote:
would be if Keith and this man were to become friendly, perhaps through the
two families getting together to socialize. I don't know if that is even
feasible, but perhaps Keith could indirectly give this guy something to
chew on that would help him be kinder and more supportive to his
family. Maybe not. I really don't know how much influence men-friends
have on each other.
But, while you may not be able to affect that sad situation, I can
personally say that you positively affect folks you don't even know! You
don't need me to tell you that, but I bet if there's a scorecard somewhere
being kept on people to record how much they do to make the world a better
place, there's probably at least an entire file draw to hold yours. (Did
that come across clearly?)
I hope that things will get better for this family.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I have a sad homeschooling problem, but it's not my family.Sandra, I'm really sorry. That is really sad. I wonder how helpful it
would be if Keith and this man were to become friendly, perhaps through the
two families getting together to socialize. I don't know if that is even
feasible, but perhaps Keith could indirectly give this guy something to
chew on that would help him be kinder and more supportive to his
family. Maybe not. I really don't know how much influence men-friends
have on each other.
But, while you may not be able to affect that sad situation, I can
personally say that you positively affect folks you don't even know! You
don't need me to tell you that, but I bet if there's a scorecard somewhere
being kept on people to record how much they do to make the world a better
place, there's probably at least an entire file draw to hold yours. (Did
that come across clearly?)
I hope that things will get better for this family.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/03 9:40:55 AM, pamhartley@... writes:
<< And maybe, MAYBE, if she divorces him he'll be one of those dads who loses
interest in the kids at all. Maybe he'll find a new wife and she'll
discourage him from having the old kids around. >>
I hadn't considered that comforting thought.
Maybe the kids would get braver, too, and be able someday to say "It's bad
enough your unreasonable expectations broke up our family. We are NOT
getting up at 4:30 to fix you breakfast, and you can do your own damned
laundry."
He makes the kids do all the family's laundry. The two older kids alternate
weeks when their job is to clean the kitchen all week alone and without help.
<<I know it's cold comfort, but having seen your family at least gives those
kids a shot at being different with their own kids.>>
They all really like Holly, and will probably remember her their whole lives.
Sandra
<< And maybe, MAYBE, if she divorces him he'll be one of those dads who loses
interest in the kids at all. Maybe he'll find a new wife and she'll
discourage him from having the old kids around. >>
I hadn't considered that comforting thought.
Maybe the kids would get braver, too, and be able someday to say "It's bad
enough your unreasonable expectations broke up our family. We are NOT
getting up at 4:30 to fix you breakfast, and you can do your own damned
laundry."
He makes the kids do all the family's laundry. The two older kids alternate
weeks when their job is to clean the kitchen all week alone and without help.
<<I know it's cold comfort, but having seen your family at least gives those
kids a shot at being different with their own kids.>>
They all really like Holly, and will probably remember her their whole lives.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/03 9:52:53 AM, marji@... writes:
<< I wonder how helpful it
would be if Keith and this man were to become friendly, perhaps through the
two families getting together to socialize. . . . . I really don't know how
much influence men-friends
have on each other. >>
The other mom suggested that. They're both engineers. <g> That doesn't mean
they would have much to talk about. But the two times we've socialized for
any length of time (not just kids' birthday parties in public places, of
which there have been two when both dads were there), the other dad LAUGHED
really hard and really freely, at things Keith and I said. Last time was a
surprise birthday party for him, and we played Encore, which is a game where
you think of and sing a bit of a song with a certain word or subject matter.
He had a TON of fun.
But when there's not company or when he's not company he's not as friendly or
fun.
He will discount things we do or think because we're not Christian and he
considers himself a serious church-going Christian, although he hasn't
settled on a church since they moved back here 16 months ago. So we're bad
influences, although he trusts us with his kids.
<<But, while you may not be able to affect that sad situation, I can
personally say that you positively affect folks you don't even know! You
don't need me to tell you that, but I bet if there's a scorecard somewhere
being kept on people to record how much they do to make the world a better
place, there's probably at least an entire file draw to hold yours. (Did
that come across clearly?)>>
Thank you very much. I think there's positive influence on individuals in
this family, but the effect of the mom hanging out with me is probably not as
good for keeping the family together as if she were hanging around with
church ladies.
I told her if it were my situation I would put the kids in school to save the
marriage, because if they split the kids will end up in school anyway. And
if she stays they might not necessarily STAY in school.
But the day the dad stole the playstation quietly and took it to work with
him without telling anyone because he hadn't gotten his way about the
punishment and the boy had had an asthma attack (which the dad sees as being
manipulative, and refuses to read any articles suggesting stress triggers
asthma)... my reaction was not charitable.
I said "I will bring Marty's playstation over there, and if [that dad]
TOUCHES it I will call the police."
Might not have been such a big deal, a gaming system, but the boy had saved
money and bought it himself, and had company coming over that day
specifically to play PS games.
That's why I said sadistic.
Sandra
<< I wonder how helpful it
would be if Keith and this man were to become friendly, perhaps through the
two families getting together to socialize. . . . . I really don't know how
much influence men-friends
have on each other. >>
The other mom suggested that. They're both engineers. <g> That doesn't mean
they would have much to talk about. But the two times we've socialized for
any length of time (not just kids' birthday parties in public places, of
which there have been two when both dads were there), the other dad LAUGHED
really hard and really freely, at things Keith and I said. Last time was a
surprise birthday party for him, and we played Encore, which is a game where
you think of and sing a bit of a song with a certain word or subject matter.
He had a TON of fun.
But when there's not company or when he's not company he's not as friendly or
fun.
He will discount things we do or think because we're not Christian and he
considers himself a serious church-going Christian, although he hasn't
settled on a church since they moved back here 16 months ago. So we're bad
influences, although he trusts us with his kids.
<<But, while you may not be able to affect that sad situation, I can
personally say that you positively affect folks you don't even know! You
don't need me to tell you that, but I bet if there's a scorecard somewhere
being kept on people to record how much they do to make the world a better
place, there's probably at least an entire file draw to hold yours. (Did
that come across clearly?)>>
Thank you very much. I think there's positive influence on individuals in
this family, but the effect of the mom hanging out with me is probably not as
good for keeping the family together as if she were hanging around with
church ladies.
I told her if it were my situation I would put the kids in school to save the
marriage, because if they split the kids will end up in school anyway. And
if she stays they might not necessarily STAY in school.
But the day the dad stole the playstation quietly and took it to work with
him without telling anyone because he hadn't gotten his way about the
punishment and the boy had had an asthma attack (which the dad sees as being
manipulative, and refuses to read any articles suggesting stress triggers
asthma)... my reaction was not charitable.
I said "I will bring Marty's playstation over there, and if [that dad]
TOUCHES it I will call the police."
Might not have been such a big deal, a gaming system, but the boy had saved
money and bought it himself, and had company coming over that day
specifically to play PS games.
That's why I said sadistic.
Sandra
marji
At 12:21 1/10/03 -0500, Sandra wrote:
can heal from that meanness.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>But the day the dad stole the playstation quietly and took it to work withGRRRRRRR You were right. I'm really sorry for those kids. I hope they
>him without telling anyone because he hadn't gotten his way about the
>punishment and the boy had had an asthma attack (which the dad sees as being
>manipulative, and refuses to read any articles suggesting stress triggers
>asthma)... my reaction was not charitable.
>
>I said "I will bring Marty's playstation over there, and if [that dad]
>TOUCHES it I will call the police."
>
>Might not have been such a big deal, a gaming system, but the boy had saved
>money and bought it himself, and had company coming over that day
>specifically to play PS games.
>
>That's why I said sadistic.
>
>Sandra
can heal from that meanness.
Marji
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
**Their knowing that at our house nobody is woken
up at 5:00 because a chore wasn't finished will contribute NOTHING to
keeping
their family together.
So I feel like a contributing factor.**
I know it's hard. Probably harder than I can imagine.
However, I don't think having your kids be more miserable would really
reduce those other kids misery in any substantial way. Try to remember that.
** I would like to be a strength to my friend,
rather than the low spot in her wall where all the potential for trying
again
to homeschool and to parent to suit her husband just floods out.**
She may need to hear you say that it's okay to leave her husband, even
if the kids have to go to school.
I don't know what to do to keep him from having unsupervised visitation, though.
Betsy
up at 5:00 because a chore wasn't finished will contribute NOTHING to
keeping
their family together.
So I feel like a contributing factor.**
I know it's hard. Probably harder than I can imagine.
However, I don't think having your kids be more miserable would really
reduce those other kids misery in any substantial way. Try to remember that.
** I would like to be a strength to my friend,
rather than the low spot in her wall where all the potential for trying
again
to homeschool and to parent to suit her husband just floods out.**
She may need to hear you say that it's okay to leave her husband, even
if the kids have to go to school.
I don't know what to do to keep him from having unsupervised visitation, though.
Betsy
Heidi Wordhouse-Dykema
Please repeat after me:
When an insane person gets upset by my sanity, I do NOT need to act insane
to make them feel better.
and
Nice women should never stay in a relationship with an insane man. Women
are not for hurting.
Sandra, stop being so frickin' bend-over-backwards to that lunatic and the
way he's treating your friend!!! He's insane and needs help or the kids
need to get out NOW.
Frankly, those kids are learning that it's okay for a father to do childish
spiteful things and that the wife should support his actions as well as any
mental/emotional/etc abuse piled on her. Last time I checked, that wasn't
a healthy message for a kid (much less the woman) to get.
While I don't know their situation personally, my gut reaction is that if
he won't go for help (psych or chemical) she should leave immediately and
homeschool as long as the alimony and child support lasts (usually 1/2 the
length of the marriage and until the kid's 18, no?) or find a way to work
from home. Nobody's doing those kids ANY favors by keeping them in that
environment.
Homes like these are how abusers are made.
Heidi
When an insane person gets upset by my sanity, I do NOT need to act insane
to make them feel better.
and
Nice women should never stay in a relationship with an insane man. Women
are not for hurting.
Sandra, stop being so frickin' bend-over-backwards to that lunatic and the
way he's treating your friend!!! He's insane and needs help or the kids
need to get out NOW.
Frankly, those kids are learning that it's okay for a father to do childish
spiteful things and that the wife should support his actions as well as any
mental/emotional/etc abuse piled on her. Last time I checked, that wasn't
a healthy message for a kid (much less the woman) to get.
While I don't know their situation personally, my gut reaction is that if
he won't go for help (psych or chemical) she should leave immediately and
homeschool as long as the alimony and child support lasts (usually 1/2 the
length of the marriage and until the kid's 18, no?) or find a way to work
from home. Nobody's doing those kids ANY favors by keeping them in that
environment.
Homes like these are how abusers are made.
Heidi
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/03 11:46:11 AM, heidi@... writes:
<< Frankly, those kids are learning that it's okay for a father to do
childish
spiteful things and that the wife should support his actions as well as any
mental/emotional/etc abuse piled on her. >>
That's the worst. She's strong and capable when he's not in the room.
<<she should leave immediately and
homeschool as long as the alimony and child support lasts (usually 1/2 the
length of the marriage and until the kid's 18, no?)>>
New Mexico's not much of an alimony state. He hasn't done the big evils
anyway, like had an affair. It's the little evils.
I'm sad, but thanks for the encouragement.
I need to think this all the way to the library: "When an insane person gets
upset by my sanity, I do NOT need to act insane
to make them feel better."
Thanks.
Sandra
<< Frankly, those kids are learning that it's okay for a father to do
childish
spiteful things and that the wife should support his actions as well as any
mental/emotional/etc abuse piled on her. >>
That's the worst. She's strong and capable when he's not in the room.
<<she should leave immediately and
homeschool as long as the alimony and child support lasts (usually 1/2 the
length of the marriage and until the kid's 18, no?)>>
New Mexico's not much of an alimony state. He hasn't done the big evils
anyway, like had an affair. It's the little evils.
I'm sad, but thanks for the encouragement.
I need to think this all the way to the library: "When an insane person gets
upset by my sanity, I do NOT need to act insane
to make them feel better."
Thanks.
Sandra
Deborah Lewis
I'm sorry for your friend and her family.
There was a discussion somewhere about speaking up and intervening on
behalf of kids who were being hit and you said (paraphrasing) that even
one person giving a child the idea that hitting isn't right might come to
make a difference in their lives and in the way they eventually treat
their own kids.
Your family being an example of peaceful kindness and love might be the
thing that saves them all from believing they deserve such treatment and
from that pattern of abuse.
You and your family aren't the ones hurting those kids.
There probably is something wrong with him and I would be afraid it could
accelerate and he could end up physically hurting one of them. She
should get herself and her kids someplace safe, and then worry about
working on the marriage if she thinks it can be saved. When he doesn't
have the power to frighten them anymore maybe he'll be more willing to be
reasonable. Or not. If he's sick, he's not responsible, but those kids
still need to be safe.
Help her find a place to go and maybe aid of some kind. Have her make a
record of some of the unreasonable things he's done and why she's
concerned for her kids emotional health when he's around.
Help her find a lawyer, and maybe a cover school if she needs one for
appearances. She's probably feeling too overwhelmed to think straight.
Deb L
There was a discussion somewhere about speaking up and intervening on
behalf of kids who were being hit and you said (paraphrasing) that even
one person giving a child the idea that hitting isn't right might come to
make a difference in their lives and in the way they eventually treat
their own kids.
Your family being an example of peaceful kindness and love might be the
thing that saves them all from believing they deserve such treatment and
from that pattern of abuse.
You and your family aren't the ones hurting those kids.
There probably is something wrong with him and I would be afraid it could
accelerate and he could end up physically hurting one of them. She
should get herself and her kids someplace safe, and then worry about
working on the marriage if she thinks it can be saved. When he doesn't
have the power to frighten them anymore maybe he'll be more willing to be
reasonable. Or not. If he's sick, he's not responsible, but those kids
still need to be safe.
Help her find a place to go and maybe aid of some kind. Have her make a
record of some of the unreasonable things he's done and why she's
concerned for her kids emotional health when he's around.
Help her find a lawyer, and maybe a cover school if she needs one for
appearances. She's probably feeling too overwhelmed to think straight.
Deb L
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/2003 10:25:00 AM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
We found a Christian counselor through Focus On the Family who was rather
mainstream in his ideas of therapy. I know FOTF gets a bad rap (even from
me), but they have a network, you know? Maybe she could call and get a few
names and then call around. Maybe ask him what church he attends, and pick
one who is Episcopalian or something liberal like that. Her husband doesn't
have to know that going in.
And of course, one way to get someone to counseling who doesn't want to go is
to ask them to go to help YOU get better. Maybe that will work, but he does
sound pretty irrational.
It's hard to watch that kind of train wreck. None of it is your fault. Your
example and ideas will be a beacon for her later, after. It's really nice of
you to care about your impact on them.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> He wouldn't even go to a marriageHey, not all of them are the weirdo male-dominant type, believe it or not.
> counsellor unless it was a male Christian counsellor.
>
We found a Christian counselor through Focus On the Family who was rather
mainstream in his ideas of therapy. I know FOTF gets a bad rap (even from
me), but they have a network, you know? Maybe she could call and get a few
names and then call around. Maybe ask him what church he attends, and pick
one who is Episcopalian or something liberal like that. Her husband doesn't
have to know that going in.
And of course, one way to get someone to counseling who doesn't want to go is
to ask them to go to help YOU get better. Maybe that will work, but he does
sound pretty irrational.
It's hard to watch that kind of train wreck. None of it is your fault. Your
example and ideas will be a beacon for her later, after. It's really nice of
you to care about your impact on them.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betsy
<< Frankly, those kids are learning that it's okay for a father to do
childish
spiteful things and that the wife should support his actions as well as
any
mental/emotional/etc abuse piled on her. >>
I realize that reading a novel isn't much of a substitute for therapy,
but I really like the young adult novel Ironman, by Chris Crutcher. The
story is about a teen struggling with the anger he feels towards his
domineering dad. The parents in this book have been divorced, but the
mother actually apologizes to the son for staying with the father and
letting him act abusively (not hitting) towards the son as long as she
did. It's a pretty cool book.
The main character is competing in a triathalon and his dad actually
works against him "to teach him a lesson". The dad is clearly trying to
break his son's spirit so that his son will never be stronger than he is.
Betsy
childish
spiteful things and that the wife should support his actions as well as
any
mental/emotional/etc abuse piled on her. >>
I realize that reading a novel isn't much of a substitute for therapy,
but I really like the young adult novel Ironman, by Chris Crutcher. The
story is about a teen struggling with the anger he feels towards his
domineering dad. The parents in this book have been divorced, but the
mother actually apologizes to the son for staying with the father and
letting him act abusively (not hitting) towards the son as long as she
did. It's a pretty cool book.
The main character is competing in a triathalon and his dad actually
works against him "to teach him a lesson". The dad is clearly trying to
break his son's spirit so that his son will never be stronger than he is.
Betsy
Betsy
**
<< And maybe, MAYBE, if she divorces him he'll be one of those dads who loses
interest in the kids at all. Maybe he'll find a new wife and she'll
discourage him from having the old kids around. >>
I hadn't considered that comforting thought.**
Continuing the string of IFs:
IF she has full custody and if her divorce decree doesn't prevent it,
she could look for a teaching job in another state, on purpose.
Betsy
<< And maybe, MAYBE, if she divorces him he'll be one of those dads who loses
interest in the kids at all. Maybe he'll find a new wife and she'll
discourage him from having the old kids around. >>
I hadn't considered that comforting thought.**
Continuing the string of IFs:
IF she has full custody and if her divorce decree doesn't prevent it,
she could look for a teaching job in another state, on purpose.
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/03 12:32:30 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< Help her find a place to go and maybe aid of some kind. Have her make a
record of some of the unreasonable things he's done and why she's
concerned for her kids emotional health when he's around.
Help her find a lawyer, and maybe a cover school if she needs one for
appearances. She's probably feeling too overwhelmed to think straight. >>
She did speak with a lawyer, and I helped her make a list of questions to
ask. The lawyer said what she has is insufficient to charge him with abuse.
I'm pressing for medical neglect, on his not understanding asthma, and being
unwilling to read what she brings home. That's the boy he's harsh with, the
asthmatic.
We don't have cover school things in New Mexico. Clonlara would be her
closest option. The dad is pressing to get the oldest child into Albuquerque
Academy. Expensive, exclusive, she doesn't want to go, he's ignoring her.
His younger brothers have kids in fancy schools. This is all about him
having something to say when he's visiting at his mom's. She wants to study
art. He doesn't care. He wants her to do academics.
Sandra
<< Help her find a place to go and maybe aid of some kind. Have her make a
record of some of the unreasonable things he's done and why she's
concerned for her kids emotional health when he's around.
Help her find a lawyer, and maybe a cover school if she needs one for
appearances. She's probably feeling too overwhelmed to think straight. >>
She did speak with a lawyer, and I helped her make a list of questions to
ask. The lawyer said what she has is insufficient to charge him with abuse.
I'm pressing for medical neglect, on his not understanding asthma, and being
unwilling to read what she brings home. That's the boy he's harsh with, the
asthmatic.
We don't have cover school things in New Mexico. Clonlara would be her
closest option. The dad is pressing to get the oldest child into Albuquerque
Academy. Expensive, exclusive, she doesn't want to go, he's ignoring her.
His younger brothers have kids in fancy schools. This is all about him
having something to say when he's visiting at his mom's. She wants to study
art. He doesn't care. He wants her to do academics.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/03 1:02:26 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< I realize that reading a novel isn't much of a substitute for therapy,
but I really like the young adult novel Ironman, by Chris Crutcher. The
story is about a teen struggling with the anger he feels towards his
domineering dad. The parents in this book have been divorced, but the
mother actually apologizes to the son for staying with the father and
letting him act abusively (not hitting) towards the son as long as she
did. It's a pretty cool book. >>
I just came back from the library, darn it, or I could have looked then.
I think I'll get it for them.
There's a possibility of them getting into a study involving asthma and
stress that the university or the medical school is doing here. I think that
is a GREAT idea!!!! He'll pretty much have to read about it then. And at
least, there would be some kind of chart or report structure for them to say
what leve of stress was in the house. He's an engineer. Maybe knowing he w
as being measured would make him more aware.
Sandra
<< I realize that reading a novel isn't much of a substitute for therapy,
but I really like the young adult novel Ironman, by Chris Crutcher. The
story is about a teen struggling with the anger he feels towards his
domineering dad. The parents in this book have been divorced, but the
mother actually apologizes to the son for staying with the father and
letting him act abusively (not hitting) towards the son as long as she
did. It's a pretty cool book. >>
I just came back from the library, darn it, or I could have looked then.
I think I'll get it for them.
There's a possibility of them getting into a study involving asthma and
stress that the university or the medical school is doing here. I think that
is a GREAT idea!!!! He'll pretty much have to read about it then. And at
least, there would be some kind of chart or report structure for them to say
what leve of stress was in the house. He's an engineer. Maybe knowing he w
as being measured would make him more aware.
Sandra
Nanci Kuykendall
>Please repeat after me:Thank you Heidi! I kept reading the digest, and
>When an insane person gets upset by my sanity, I do
>NOT need to act insane to make them feel better.
>and Nice women should never stay in a relationship
>with an insane man. Women are not for hurting.
hoping that someone would adress this point and
wondering if I would have to send something myself to
this effect. I know Sandra has the common sense to
know this is not her fault or her responsibility, as I
have heard her give similar advice to others. But
it's hard to see clearly when you are emotionally
involved, and easy to lose sight of simple truths in
the face of complex neurosis. I feel that staying in
a bad marriage "for the sake of the children" is
always a bad idea, and worse for the children. Like
leaving a wound to fester, because treating it would
hurt.
Don't feel bad for being yourself Sandra! Your self
is a strong, caring, thoughtful, dynamic person. Feel
GOOD about the example you are giving to those kids
(and the Keith is giving to them!) about what a family
CAN be like. Feel GOOD about being an ear for your
friend, and a shoulder, and NOT ANOTHER BRICK IN HER
WALL, pardon the stolen phrase. Her marriage is on
the rocks, maybe it needs to die it's natural death
for all parties involved to move on to healtheir
things. Maybe this man's behavior is a cry for help
getting out of a life he is unhappy with. Whatever
their reality may be, it is none of your doing.
A dear friend of mine recently ended her marriage of
20+ years with her husband, who was doing similar
insane things. She says that now that they live in
different cities and have moved on in their lives, his
is a much healthier and happier person. They are
friends now, and talk on the phone, and she is amazed
at the difference in him, and happy for his new life.
Her life, of course, is also much more serene and
happy without someone manufacturing drama and abuses
for her. It was time for them to move on.
> Last time I checked, that wasn't a healthy messageHere here.
>for a kid (much less the woman) to get.
Where there is a will, there is a way. I know there
are homeschooling single mom's out there, some who are
sole breadwinners. The kids will need to be a part of
the solution, and the family (mom and kids) will have
to pull together to get through if they choose to
leave him, but it's not impossible.
Nanci K.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/03 3:11:06 PM, aisliin@... writes:
<< Where there is a will, there is a way. I know there
are homeschooling single mom's out there, some who are
sole breadwinners. The kids will need to be a part of
the solution, and the family (mom and kids) will have
to pull together to get through if they choose to
leave him, but it's not impossible. >>
Thanks, Nanci.
Last week I suggested she talk honestly about this with her 13 year old
daughter, who will be 14 in February. It had not occurred to her to do so.
It's not just the dad, then, perpetuating a tradition in which kids aren't
treated as members or parts of the situation.
Sad and quietly stunned Sandra
<< Where there is a will, there is a way. I know there
are homeschooling single mom's out there, some who are
sole breadwinners. The kids will need to be a part of
the solution, and the family (mom and kids) will have
to pull together to get through if they choose to
leave him, but it's not impossible. >>
Thanks, Nanci.
Last week I suggested she talk honestly about this with her 13 year old
daughter, who will be 14 in February. It had not occurred to her to do so.
It's not just the dad, then, perpetuating a tradition in which kids aren't
treated as members or parts of the situation.
Sad and quietly stunned Sandra
Betsy
**There's a possibility of them getting into a study involving asthma
and
stress that the university or the medical school is doing here. I think
that
is a GREAT idea!!!!**
Does she have a cool pediatrician for her kids who could "prescribe" "No
Bullying" as valuable medicine for an asthmatic child?
Betsy
PS (I'm a retired engineer myself. At my workplace they used to say
"what gets measured gets done.")
PPS (A scientific thing that could be graphed is the boy's Peak Flow
(lung capacity). You blow into a special device called a peak flow
meter to measure this. This is helpful in understanding whether the
airways are open and functioning normally, or are starting to constrict.
Doing this daily and tracking the results is a good way to know when
more medicine is required, and it is helpful in figuring out what one's
"asthma trigger" might be.)
and
stress that the university or the medical school is doing here. I think
that
is a GREAT idea!!!!**
Does she have a cool pediatrician for her kids who could "prescribe" "No
Bullying" as valuable medicine for an asthmatic child?
Betsy
PS (I'm a retired engineer myself. At my workplace they used to say
"what gets measured gets done.")
PPS (A scientific thing that could be graphed is the boy's Peak Flow
(lung capacity). You blow into a special device called a peak flow
meter to measure this. This is helpful in understanding whether the
airways are open and functioning normally, or are starting to constrict.
Doing this daily and tracking the results is a good way to know when
more medicine is required, and it is helpful in figuring out what one's
"asthma trigger" might be.)
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/10/03 5:00:58 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:
<< Does she have a cool pediatrician for her kids who could "prescribe" "No
Bullying" as valuable medicine for an asthmatic child? >>
I suggested she ask the doctor for literature. She talked to him on the
phone and he gave her websites. I think next time she should take her
husband with her and get the doctor to say those things. The husband was
just here, picking some stuff up with their daughter. He is SO sweet and
charming in isolation (and visiting). Very loveable.
Damn.
Sandra
<< Does she have a cool pediatrician for her kids who could "prescribe" "No
Bullying" as valuable medicine for an asthmatic child? >>
I suggested she ask the doctor for literature. She talked to him on the
phone and he gave her websites. I think next time she should take her
husband with her and get the doctor to say those things. The husband was
just here, picking some stuff up with their daughter. He is SO sweet and
charming in isolation (and visiting). Very loveable.
Damn.
Sandra
Dan Vilter
In regard to the suggestion that Keith have a talk with him, it might work.
The two or three times in my life I have had these conversations they helped
but, *they were very difficult*. I rehearsed my lines many times and I knew
that it could all blow up in my face. So I had to weigh was it worth losing
one of my closest friends to point out to him that he was destroying his
relationship with his kids? Kids I didn't even know very well. It was a
tough choice. If he took it wrong, we would no longer be friends and he
would still be on the path to destruction.
You (Sandra) say that this guy trusts his kids with your family. That would
most assuredly change if Keith's talk goes badly. I wouldn't want to be the
one to ask Keith to have the talk. But, if he won't go to counseling the
only counseling he will get is from friends.
Do the kids see the mom sticking up for them? That seems to be the most
important thing to establish before any moves are made.
He seems to be using a different script than hers. If the kids really do
come first for her, he needs to *know* that. I have meet some very dense
guys through the years that didn't see the divorce coming. If it is clear to
him that what ever ill-conceived power struggle he is having with the kids
will cost him the family he will either change because he values them (wife
and kids) or he won't and she will know what little value she and the kids
are to him and hopefully move on to doing whatever is necessary to protect
them. It has to come to this or it will only get worse.
From this point it all looks ugly to me.
It must be tough for you to see all the potential good in this guy.
-Dan Vilter
The two or three times in my life I have had these conversations they helped
but, *they were very difficult*. I rehearsed my lines many times and I knew
that it could all blow up in my face. So I had to weigh was it worth losing
one of my closest friends to point out to him that he was destroying his
relationship with his kids? Kids I didn't even know very well. It was a
tough choice. If he took it wrong, we would no longer be friends and he
would still be on the path to destruction.
You (Sandra) say that this guy trusts his kids with your family. That would
most assuredly change if Keith's talk goes badly. I wouldn't want to be the
one to ask Keith to have the talk. But, if he won't go to counseling the
only counseling he will get is from friends.
Do the kids see the mom sticking up for them? That seems to be the most
important thing to establish before any moves are made.
He seems to be using a different script than hers. If the kids really do
come first for her, he needs to *know* that. I have meet some very dense
guys through the years that didn't see the divorce coming. If it is clear to
him that what ever ill-conceived power struggle he is having with the kids
will cost him the family he will either change because he values them (wife
and kids) or he won't and she will know what little value she and the kids
are to him and hopefully move on to doing whatever is necessary to protect
them. It has to come to this or it will only get worse.
From this point it all looks ugly to me.
It must be tough for you to see all the potential good in this guy.
-Dan Vilter