sticky fingers
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/02 6:58:12 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Actually, Tuck brought it up, twice. She said that all the kids she has
seen of this race beg for money and that the child is of a different
race than she is. I'm curious what race that is, as her comment seems
rather stereotypical. >>
I had some experiences with gypsies up North. Many of them had moved into the
Portland area and there were large groups living in communal style areas.
I had three experiences in which they joined the health club I worked at.
They misused the sauna, (washing their clothing in the sink and hanging it
all over the sauna to dry) wore inappropriate clothing on the work out
equipment (women had to wear LONG dresses no matter what) and had a party in
our loft that was very interesting to say the least (included a goat).
Does that mean I treat any Gypsies I meet with contempt. Certainly not.
But I do recognize that there are cultural differences BIG time!!
There was a large group of them that sued a CA club over "discrimination"
when they wouldn't allow them to hang clothing in the saunas and wear
innappropriate clothing on the workout equipment among other issues.
So were we being "prejudice" when a large group tried to join our club and we
very, very carefully covered all of our rules regarding those issues? (more
so than with other potential members probably) Or were we using our past
experiences with them to protect ourselves?
I'd like to think the latter. We ended up asking a huge group of them to
leave when they refused to comply.
Fortunately, the threat of a lawsuit was stopped when the club showed the
paperwork they were required to sign, stating those very things were against
club regulations.
Judgement? Yes.
Prejudice? I don't believe so.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< Actually, Tuck brought it up, twice. She said that all the kids she has
seen of this race beg for money and that the child is of a different
race than she is. I'm curious what race that is, as her comment seems
rather stereotypical. >>
I had some experiences with gypsies up North. Many of them had moved into the
Portland area and there were large groups living in communal style areas.
I had three experiences in which they joined the health club I worked at.
They misused the sauna, (washing their clothing in the sink and hanging it
all over the sauna to dry) wore inappropriate clothing on the work out
equipment (women had to wear LONG dresses no matter what) and had a party in
our loft that was very interesting to say the least (included a goat).
Does that mean I treat any Gypsies I meet with contempt. Certainly not.
But I do recognize that there are cultural differences BIG time!!
There was a large group of them that sued a CA club over "discrimination"
when they wouldn't allow them to hang clothing in the saunas and wear
innappropriate clothing on the workout equipment among other issues.
So were we being "prejudice" when a large group tried to join our club and we
very, very carefully covered all of our rules regarding those issues? (more
so than with other potential members probably) Or were we using our past
experiences with them to protect ourselves?
I'd like to think the latter. We ended up asking a huge group of them to
leave when they refused to comply.
Fortunately, the threat of a lawsuit was stopped when the club showed the
paperwork they were required to sign, stating those very things were against
club regulations.
Judgement? Yes.
Prejudice? I don't believe so.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/20/02 6:58:12 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< All kids steal. >>
THAT is extremely stereotypical! AND prejudice.
And not even true.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< All kids steal. >>
THAT is extremely stereotypical! AND prejudice.
And not even true.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Joylyn
I disagree. Maybe I shouldn't have said all, so I'll ammend my statement
to "many children on occassion take things that are not theirs to take."
For instance, Lexie was taking the coins and dollars that I would take
out of my pocket and put them in her piggy banks. When I asked her
about it, it was obvious she didn't realize there might be a problem
with that. I told her just to ask as I might have plans for that money.
Now she comes in and says "can i have these coins?" Janene was taking
the money from the girl scout dues tin. She didn't realize she was
doing anythign wrong. When I discovered this, I asked her to not do
that anymore as it wasn't our money and that if she needed money to
simply ask me. No big deal. At age four, I'm sure she thought that it
was just a nice place to get money to put in her special wallet. (I
also replaced what she took). But she was technically stealing.
I was wrong to call it stealing. But yes, I do think that the majority
of children need to be taught that they have to pay for things before
they eat them or leave the store, and that the toddler rule of
possession is not necessarily true.
Oh, I was also remembering my nephew when he was two took a candy bar
from a store. I didn't notice until he was out of the store.
Technically this is stealing. But the reality is--he didn't understand
the rules of aquisition. (spelling?) I understood it, the candy was
right there, at his level, and so he took one. There is candy at the
bank that you can just take (in a bowl on the table, suckers, for the
kids). The rules of our society are often complex. The other day we
were at the store and after getting the items I wanted, I said, OK,
let's go home and Janene said, astonished, "but mommy, we have to PAY
first." Like I had meant, let's leave without paying. But she's
getting the rules down.
And there are also children that steal for other reasons. A need that
is not being met, whether attention or food or happiness. but for most
kids, it's simply a part of learning the rules.
Joylyn, who has drone on long enough.
starsuncloud@... wrote:
to "many children on occassion take things that are not theirs to take."
For instance, Lexie was taking the coins and dollars that I would take
out of my pocket and put them in her piggy banks. When I asked her
about it, it was obvious she didn't realize there might be a problem
with that. I told her just to ask as I might have plans for that money.
Now she comes in and says "can i have these coins?" Janene was taking
the money from the girl scout dues tin. She didn't realize she was
doing anythign wrong. When I discovered this, I asked her to not do
that anymore as it wasn't our money and that if she needed money to
simply ask me. No big deal. At age four, I'm sure she thought that it
was just a nice place to get money to put in her special wallet. (I
also replaced what she took). But she was technically stealing.
I was wrong to call it stealing. But yes, I do think that the majority
of children need to be taught that they have to pay for things before
they eat them or leave the store, and that the toddler rule of
possession is not necessarily true.
Oh, I was also remembering my nephew when he was two took a candy bar
from a store. I didn't notice until he was out of the store.
Technically this is stealing. But the reality is--he didn't understand
the rules of aquisition. (spelling?) I understood it, the candy was
right there, at his level, and so he took one. There is candy at the
bank that you can just take (in a bowl on the table, suckers, for the
kids). The rules of our society are often complex. The other day we
were at the store and after getting the items I wanted, I said, OK,
let's go home and Janene said, astonished, "but mommy, we have to PAY
first." Like I had meant, let's leave without paying. But she's
getting the rules down.
And there are also children that steal for other reasons. A need that
is not being met, whether attention or food or happiness. but for most
kids, it's simply a part of learning the rules.
Joylyn, who has drone on long enough.
starsuncloud@... wrote:
> In a message dated 11/20/02 6:58:12 PM Central Standard Time,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> [email protected] writes:
>
> << All kids steal. >>
>
> THAT is extremely stereotypical! AND prejudice.
> And not even true.
>
> Ren
> "The answers aren't important really...
> What's important, is knowing all the questions."
> -Zilpha Keatley Snyder
> Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 5:50:46 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Most certainly your main concern is to show her who's boss.
That is what leaders do. >>
How completely stereotypical AGAIN!! Funny, but everyone accusing Tuck of
having that problem is displaying THEIR prejudices.
I've met Tuck.
I can NOT imagine that her merely mentioning the cultural differences as a
reason to explain a certain behavior (yes, begging IS acceptable in some
cultures and she didn't say it was the answer, she said it was possible)
means she would treat that little girl any differently than any other child
in the group that did the same!!
Sheesh people. The kid stole, that's a good reason to be cautious with her.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< Most certainly your main concern is to show her who's boss.
That is what leaders do. >>
How completely stereotypical AGAIN!! Funny, but everyone accusing Tuck of
having that problem is displaying THEIR prejudices.
I've met Tuck.
I can NOT imagine that her merely mentioning the cultural differences as a
reason to explain a certain behavior (yes, begging IS acceptable in some
cultures and she didn't say it was the answer, she said it was possible)
means she would treat that little girl any differently than any other child
in the group that did the same!!
Sheesh people. The kid stole, that's a good reason to be cautious with her.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Liza Sabater
Ren,
I never said I was above anybody. This is not about being right or
wrong. This is an invitation to become part of a process of stripping
away the bull and going straight for the guts of the situation. You
can either accept or decline and, really, that is cool.
But, I leave you with this --this may be the most challenging
unschooling experience that a lot of people in this list might want
to consider. It is right up our alleys. We could even start making a
list of those "catch phrases".
Peace,
Liza
I never said I was above anybody. This is not about being right or
wrong. This is an invitation to become part of a process of stripping
away the bull and going straight for the guts of the situation. You
can either accept or decline and, really, that is cool.
But, I leave you with this --this may be the most challenging
unschooling experience that a lot of people in this list might want
to consider. It is right up our alleys. We could even start making a
list of those "catch phrases".
Peace,
Liza
>In a message dated 11/21/02 5:50:46 AM Central Standard Time,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>[email protected] writes:
>
><< Most certainly your main concern is to show her who's boss.
>That is what leaders do. >>
>
>How completely stereotypical AGAIN!! Funny, but everyone accusing Tuck of
>having that problem is displaying THEIR prejudices.
>I've met Tuck.
>I can NOT imagine that her merely mentioning the cultural differences as a
>reason to explain a certain behavior (yes, begging IS acceptable in some
>cultures and she didn't say it was the answer, she said it was possible)
>means she would treat that little girl any differently than any other child
>in the group that did the same!!
>Sheesh people. The kid stole, that's a good reason to be cautious with her.
>
>Ren
>"The answers aren't important really...
>What's important, is knowing all the questions."
> -Zilpha Keatley Snyder
>Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 5:54:06 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< But, I leave you with this --this may be the most challenging
unschooling experience that a lot of people in this list might want
to consider. It is right up our alleys. We could even start making a
list of those "catch phrases". >>
You aren't enlightening me Liza. I know about a lot of those phrases.....hate
'em.
Even hymnals have some phrases that need stripping ("white as snow" was used
for a reason).
I was raised in a multi-ethnic family. Indian, Swiss, Norweigan and Scot
being the bloodlines....Eskimo and Athabaskan Indian being my adopted family.
I lived in Hawaii and was spit on, called names and otherwise tortured in
ways I choose to not think about often over MY race.
So don't start on some soapbox over prejudice and racism with me please.
I've lived it.
I'm related to many ethnic backgrounds. Love them deeply. I don't need your
help in getting enlightened on the topic, believe me.
I have a Barbadian friend that gets lumped in as "African American" all the
time, from black people too. She's tired of it. Lots and lots of people don't
realize the ways they are insensitive to race or cultural differences.
Tuck didn't state anything bad about the fact that many people of the race
this child was were begging in her experience.
She only noted it as a possible explanation. She never said all people of
that race do this. Get over it.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< But, I leave you with this --this may be the most challenging
unschooling experience that a lot of people in this list might want
to consider. It is right up our alleys. We could even start making a
list of those "catch phrases". >>
You aren't enlightening me Liza. I know about a lot of those phrases.....hate
'em.
Even hymnals have some phrases that need stripping ("white as snow" was used
for a reason).
I was raised in a multi-ethnic family. Indian, Swiss, Norweigan and Scot
being the bloodlines....Eskimo and Athabaskan Indian being my adopted family.
I lived in Hawaii and was spit on, called names and otherwise tortured in
ways I choose to not think about often over MY race.
So don't start on some soapbox over prejudice and racism with me please.
I've lived it.
I'm related to many ethnic backgrounds. Love them deeply. I don't need your
help in getting enlightened on the topic, believe me.
I have a Barbadian friend that gets lumped in as "African American" all the
time, from black people too. She's tired of it. Lots and lots of people don't
realize the ways they are insensitive to race or cultural differences.
Tuck didn't state anything bad about the fact that many people of the race
this child was were begging in her experience.
She only noted it as a possible explanation. She never said all people of
that race do this. Get over it.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 9:25:55 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< He's never had his parentage challenged or cry because a
neighbor child tells his child that she is not welcome in their home
because her child is the wrong color. I am not calling you a racist,
but I am asking you to think hard. To get past the defensiveness and
look closely at things. Ultimately, only you can say. >>
You're assuming that we haven't been touched by racism just because we aren't
black. Don't assume that.
Maybe your bad experiences, which were all too real and very related to
racism, have caused you to assume wrong things about people.
Like the fact that people saying how cute your girls are and so on, are only
cloaking racism. You sound very prejudice yourself.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< He's never had his parentage challenged or cry because a
neighbor child tells his child that she is not welcome in their home
because her child is the wrong color. I am not calling you a racist,
but I am asking you to think hard. To get past the defensiveness and
look closely at things. Ultimately, only you can say. >>
You're assuming that we haven't been touched by racism just because we aren't
black. Don't assume that.
Maybe your bad experiences, which were all too real and very related to
racism, have caused you to assume wrong things about people.
Like the fact that people saying how cute your girls are and so on, are only
cloaking racism. You sound very prejudice yourself.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/21/02 9:25:55 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< Let's drop it for now, please.
up all over again.
Consider it dropped.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< Let's drop it for now, please.
>>Sorry, didn't see Sandra's post until after posting. Hope I don't stir things
up all over again.
Consider it dropped.
Ren
"The answers aren't important really...
What's important, is knowing all the questions."
-Zilpha Keatley Snyder
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com