Katrina Gutleben

I've been reading this thread about the girl and managed to keep my mouth shut for a while here. But this bothers me. I have to say it.

You said in your most recent post that this girl would have to prove herself to you in order for you to trust her again. What do you mean by that exactly? How can she prove herself if not by coming to sekll candy and NOT stealing? Didn't she do that? You said yourself she didn't steal the second time. What more proof do you need?

I don't want you to take this too personally but in some ways it sounds like you're looking for bad in this girl. The way you quickly assumed that she stole the money the second time with *absolutely no evidence* to back up the assumption hints at this.

The truth is you don't really have any proof that she stole the 'first' dollar. You say that she eventually confessed to it in front of you and her grandmother but if she denied it to begin with and if you continued to press the issue after her denial she may have seen a false confession as the quickest way out of a very uncomfortable situation.

When I was 9 or so I had a close friend who was stealing things from a school stockroom. When her mom found her stash she confronted her and she told her that I had stolen it. I didn't even know anything about it so when my parents confronted me with what they *knew* I had done, boy was I surprised. But no matter how much I denied it they were sure I had done it and were ready to punish me for it *and* for lying about it. So I apologized for stealing the stuff and promised never to do it again. And I haven't. :) Maybe Sandra is right about the Marines. Maybe I've known too many adults who jump to conclusions so I don't trust them as a group now. Maybe that's why this whole story is sitting so wrong with me.

Or lets say she did take the dollar. maybe she did. And then she saw that she didn't get away with it. Wised up and decided not to do it again. Good.

You also say she asked someone for money and this bothers you. But again you didn't 'see' it yourself. You mentioned that sometimes people were offering the girls money. Is it possible someone just gave it to her? You say there is a witness. Is it possible they misunderstood the situation? Or maybe someone gave another child money and this girl saw and asked for one as well. Not exactly proper, it's true. But not a crime either. And certainly better than stealing.

Maybe all that would be needed was to have a little group meeting about what's expected during candy sales to make them 'proffesional'. Make a rule and let it be known that the girls are not allowed to accept 'tips'. And if people want to give them money they should tell them they can't accept it but that if the would like to go ahead and make a donation they certainly can. The donation jar is right over there...

It sounds as if this girl might just rub you the wrong way. You mentioned that she's a different race than yourself. I would hate to think there is any racism in your group. As that is obviously not how groups like this should be. You have a right to not like this girl. You have a right to dispise her even. But I don't really think that in your capacity as a group leader that you have any right to let your feelings get in the way of treating this girl like you would any of the other children.

I hope you don't take any of this too personally. You're getting an unfair share of my frustration with adults in leadership positions who don't respect the kids they are dealing with. I'm sure you respect them very much. But My MIL who teaches 6th grade was just telling me how DUMB particular kids in her class are. So you're getting some of her share of my frustration becase I don't know you and I can't tell her what a horrible pig she is. So I am sorry if this was more than needed to be said :)

Peace,

katieGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/02 12:49:40 AM, katguts@... writes:

<< How can she prove herself if not by coming to sekll candy and NOT
stealing? Didn't she do that? You said yourself she didn't steal the second
time. What more proof do you need? >>

If a drunk goes a day without drinking does that mean the addiction is
conquered?

If a habitual liar tells you the truth one day do you let your guard down
thereafter?

My brother is a thief. He's my half brother, both his parents were extreme
alcoholics, my mom didn't know she was pregnant until five months in, and was
passing-out drunk the night he was born. He's nearly 30. He's never going
to have a real conscience. There have been times he's gone a week without
stealing anything. But I'm telling you, do NOT let him have access to your
things. Don't. It's not our opinion of him that made him steal. It's his
inability to hold a job, his desire/need of alcohol and drugs, and his lack
of conscience.

To try to make decent people feel bad every time they rightly suspect someone
who has proven untrustworthy doesn't help the situation.

If my hopes and blind trust and love and encouragement could have changed my
brother, he would be a saint. People loved him when he was little and took
care of him, but it's beyond others' influence at some point.

-=-When I was 9 or so I had a close friend who was stealing things from a
school stockroom. When her mom found her stash she confronted her and she
told her that I had stolen it. I didn't even know anything about it so when
my parents confronted me with what they *knew* I had done, boy was I
surprised. But no matter how much I denied it they were sure I had done it
and were ready to punish me for it *and* for lying about it. So I apologized
for stealing the stuff and promised never to do it again. And I haven't.
:)-=-

You never had.
But did you trust your friend after that? Did you trust her not to steal?
Did you trust her to be truthful to or about you? Are you still friends with
her?

<<Or lets say she did take the dollar. maybe she did. And then she saw that
she didn't get away with it. Wised up and decided not to do it again.
Good.>>

One closely watched "success" doesn't prove a change.

Maybe she never will again. Too soon to say.

Reclaiming a reputation isn't a one-to-one correspondence. One truth doesn't
make up for one lie. Maybe TEN. If you litter, it's not enough just not to
litter the next time. You need to make amends and pick up some other
people's trash, maybe, or be EXTRA vigilant to be the least littery of anyone
around you for a long time.

<<It sounds as if this girl might just rub you the wrong way. You mentioned
that she's a different race than yourself. I would hate to think there is
any racism in your group. As that is obviously not how groups like this
should be. You have a right to not like this girl. You have a right to
dispise her even. But I don't really think that in your capacity as a group
leader that you have any right to let your feelings get in the way of
treating this girl like you would any of the other children.>>

Wow. This is a leap. Nobody said anything LIKE "despise." Did you really
read all the stuff that lead up to this?

-=-in your capacity as a group leader that you have any right to let your
feelings get in the way -=-

Are you recommending that it is the duty of a group leader to ignore all
feelings and knowledge, first or second hand, and NOT use her own judgment?
That's nonsense. Leadership involves judgment of what's safe, good,
productive, etc.

-=- So you're getting some of her share of my frustration becase I don't know
you and I can't tell her what a horrible pig she is. -=-

Your prejudice is spreading to others. Tuck's was evidential concern about
an individual person.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2002 1:49:28 AM Central Standard Time,
katguts@... writes:

> You said in your most recent post that this girl would have to prove herself
> to you in order for you to trust her again. What do you mean by that
> exactly? How can she prove herself if not by coming to sekll candy and NOT
> stealing? Didn't she do that? You said yourself she didn't steal the
> second time. What more proof do you need?
>

But she did ask a stranger for money. Besides, she has ample opportunity to
prove herself in other ways without attending the last 2 candy sales of the
year.

<<The way you quickly assumed that she stole the money the second time with
*absolutely no evidence* to back up the assumption hints at this.>>

I don't think "quickly" is an accurate term, given what I said about my
thought process at the time:

" However, when I get home with the money from the sale, the drawer was $10
short.  Now, I KNOW that there are a hundred other explanations to why that
could be.  I could have given someone change for a $20 instead of a $10, it
could have blown away, etc.  Our candy is $4/box, so it's probably not an
accounting error.  Besides all our inventory is correct, etc.  But this is
very suspicious.  I have no evidence that says she could have taken it,
other
than her bad reputation.  I did find the lid of the money box kind of ajar
a
couple of times, and I know at least once I had left it that way, and the
other time I was surprised and thought I'd locked it back. "


<<The truth is you don't really have any proof that she stole the 'first'
dollar.  You say that she eventually confessed to it in front of you and her
grandmother but if she denied it to begin with and if you continued to press
the issue after her denial she may have seen a false confession as the
quickest way out of a very uncomfortable situation.>>

Her grandmother wasn't there. This was no interrogation under a spot light.
We had a conversation with her, in which she eventually saw that she was
trapped and she admitted it. Besides, her cousin saw her take the dollar,
accused her of it right on the spot, and she denied it. I, too, once
admitted to doing something I didn't do just to get out of a bad situation.
This is not what happened.

<<You also say she asked someone for money and this bothers you.  But again
you didn't 'see' it yourself.  You mentioned that sometimes people were
offering the girls money.  Is it possible someone just gave it to her?  You
say there is a witness.  Is it possible they misunderstood the situation?  Or
maybe someone gave another child money and this girl saw and asked for one as
well.  Not exactly proper, it's true.  But not a crime either.  And certainly
better than stealing.>>

Have you read what I wrote? Someone heard her ask, "Can I have a quarter?"

Begging doesn't bother you? If you walked up to a table where they were
selling Girl Scout Cookies and one of the children asked you that question,
would you give them a quarter? What else would you think? What would you
think about Girl Scouts, or that Scout leader?

<<Maybe all that would be needed was to have a little group meeting about
what's expected during candy sales to make them 'proffesional'.  Make a rule
and let it be known that the girls are not allowed to accept 'tips'.  And if
people want to give them money they should tell them they can't accept it but
that if the would like to go ahead and make a donation they certainly can. 
The donation jar is right over there...>>

If it had ever occurred to me that any of the children would think it was
okay to ask for money and then put it in their pocket, I would have mentioned
it to them. This is a new one for me, although I have been asked for money
and other things by children here before.

<<It sounds as if this girl might just rub you the wrong way.  You mentioned
that she's a different race than yourself.  I would hate to think there is
any racism in your group.  As that is obviously not how groups like this
should be.  You have a right to not like this girl.  You have a right to
dispise her even.  But I don't really think that in your capacity as a group
leader that you have any right to let your feelings get in the way of
treating this girl like you would any of the other children.>>

You're making a lot of assumptions. I don't let my feelings dictate my
actions. I do, however, allow my actions to be informed by my experiences.

I mentioned her race because it is my experience that the small children who
asked me for money on the street, and the pre-teens who have asked me for the
last piece of pizza on my table at Chuck E. Cheese have all been of this
girl's race. I feel these actions are evidence of a cultural difference
between my race and theirs, and I am willing to accept that, and I fully
realize I don't have to participate in those transactions. But I can't have
those transactions happen in the context of our fundraiser. Ideally, the
children would be on board with the fact that the money they are offered
should be part of a donation to the club, and not for their own pockets. I
don't care what they do on their own time.

<<So you're getting some of her share of my frustration becase I don't know
you and I can't tell her what a horrible pig she is.  So I am sorry if this
was more than needed to be said :)>>

Well, some of these folks have met me. Let's take a poll. ;)

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joylyn

Tuckervill@... wrote:

> Begging doesn't bother you? If you walked up to a table where they were
> selling Girl Scout Cookies and one of the children asked you that
> question,
> would you give them a quarter? What else would you think? What would
> you
> think about Girl Scouts, or that Scout leader?

As a scout leader and a mom who has a daughter in the troop, yes begging
bothers me, but it is something kids do. Kids are kids. This child is
8 years old.

I do have a qusetion for you. What race are you? What race is the child?

joylyn

>

Katie

Yes, but this girl isn't a drunk or a habitual liar. She's an 8 year
old who may or may not have taken a dollar. One time. ANd hasn't
done anything terribley unreiable since. People do make mistakes.
And I do think that as leaders it would be our job to help them but
not to pass judgment on them for one bad act.

Maybe that's just me. But that is my opinion. Yes I have been
reading it. I realize Tuck has said she loved the girl. Wants to do
what she can for her. But underneath there was something about this
girl doing something (ask for money) that she didn't like. And then
she added that the girl was a different race and maybe it was a
cultural thing. And that she couldn't get over that. Not everyone
has the same strong feelings on this as Tuck. Clearly 'begging' for
money hits her deeply. Apparently it doesn't hit this girl the same
way. Apparently it didn't bother the person who gave her the money.

I don't know all of the situation and I'm not claiming to. I was
just trying to share my gut reactions with tuck so maybe she could
see the other side. And actually I am still friends with the girl
who accused me of stealing. Many years later. Because I didn't hold
this one event against her.

Peace,
Katie


--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/20/02 12:49:40 AM, katguts@h... writes:
>
> << How can she prove herself if not by coming to sekll candy and
NOT
> stealing? Didn't she do that? You said yourself she didn't steal
the second
> time. What more proof do you need? >>
>
> If a drunk goes a day without drinking does that mean the addiction
is
> conquered?
>
> If a habitual liar tells you the truth one day do you let your
guard down
> thereafter?
>
> My brother is a thief. He's my half brother, both his parents were
extreme
> alcoholics, my mom didn't know she was pregnant until five months
in, and was
> passing-out drunk the night he was born. He's nearly 30. He's
never going
> to have a real conscience. There have been times he's gone a week
without
> stealing anything. But I'm telling you, do NOT let him have access
to your
> things. Don't. It's not our opinion of him that made him steal.
It's his
> inability to hold a job, his desire/need of alcohol and drugs, and
his lack
> of conscience.
>
> To try to make decent people feel bad every time they rightly
suspect someone
> who has proven untrustworthy doesn't help the situation.
>
> If my hopes and blind trust and love and encouragement could have
changed my
> brother, he would be a saint. People loved him when he was little
and took
> care of him, but it's beyond others' influence at some point.
>
> -=-When I was 9 or so I had a close friend who was stealing things
from a
> school stockroom. When her mom found her stash she confronted her
and she
> told her that I had stolen it. I didn't even know anything about
it so when
> my parents confronted me with what they *knew* I had done, boy was
I
> surprised. But no matter how much I denied it they were sure I had
done it
> and were ready to punish me for it *and* for lying about it. So I
apologized
> for stealing the stuff and promised never to do it again. And I
haven't.
> :)-=-
>
> You never had.
> But did you trust your friend after that? Did you trust her not to
steal?
> Did you trust her to be truthful to or about you? Are you still
friends with
> her?
>
> <<Or lets say she did take the dollar. maybe she did. And then
she saw that
> she didn't get away with it. Wised up and decided not to do it
again.
> Good.>>
>
> One closely watched "success" doesn't prove a change.
>
> Maybe she never will again. Too soon to say.
>
> Reclaiming a reputation isn't a one-to-one correspondence. One
truth doesn't
> make up for one lie. Maybe TEN. If you litter, it's not enough
just not to
> litter the next time. You need to make amends and pick up some
other
> people's trash, maybe, or be EXTRA vigilant to be the least littery
of anyone
> around you for a long time.
>
> <<It sounds as if this girl might just rub you the wrong way. You
mentioned
> that she's a different race than yourself. I would hate to think
there is
> any racism in your group. As that is obviously not how groups like
this
> should be. You have a right to not like this girl. You have a
right to
> dispise her even. But I don't really think that in your capacity
as a group
> leader that you have any right to let your feelings get in the way
of
> treating this girl like you would any of the other children.>>
>
> Wow. This is a leap. Nobody said anything LIKE "despise." Did
you really
> read all the stuff that lead up to this?
>
> -=-in your capacity as a group leader that you have any right to
let your
> feelings get in the way -=-
>
> Are you recommending that it is the duty of a group leader to
ignore all
> feelings and knowledge, first or second hand, and NOT use her own
judgment?
> That's nonsense. Leadership involves judgment of what's safe,
good,
> productive, etc.
>
> -=- So you're getting some of her share of my frustration becase I
don't know
> you and I can't tell her what a horrible pig she is. -=-
>
> Your prejudice is spreading to others. Tuck's was evidential
concern about
> an individual person.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/02 3:42:18 PM Central Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:

> I do have a qusetion for you. What race are you? What race is the child?
>
> joylyn
>

This is the second time race has come up. What is with all the race
questions? Does it matter? I don't *know* Tuck personally, but I really doubt
this is a factor in this problem, even if the little girl and Tuck are
different races. Are you insinuating that the child stole the money because
she is a certain race, or because she is a different race than the other
girls or leaders?

~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Katie

Tuck said...

Ideally, the
> children would be on board with the fact that the money they are
offered
> should be part of a donation to the club, and not for their own
pockets. I
> don't care what they do on their own time.


I agree that Ideally they should be. You know that. I know that.
But unless you have made that clear to them. They may just not know
that! I'd like to think people would just grow up knowing such
things. They don't. I used to work in fast food. When they trained
us they told us we weren't allowed to accept tips. These were
adults. But they still told us. It covers everyones but if you
don't just assume everyone has the same values as you. This way if
they ever saw you at work putting some money in you're pocket there
would be no chance of confusion.

As I said maybe I'm wrong. But if I were the girl. it would bother
me to not be allowed to be involved in any more sales. Of course as
you said she's met her quota. Maybe she won't know the difference.

Peace,
Katie

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2002 3:42:24 PM Central Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:

> I do have a qusetion for you. What race are you? What race is the child?
>
>

It only matters that we have a cultural difference, and so I will not be
baited into a discussion about racism.

And no, my kids do not beg strangers for money.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Katie

> Tuckervill@a... wrote:
>
> > Begging doesn't bother you? If you walked up to a table where
they were
> > selling Girl Scout Cookies and one of the children asked you that
> > question,
> > would you give them a quarter? What else would you think? What
would
> > you
> > think about Girl Scouts, or that Scout leader?
>
Beggin bothers me. But if someone on the street asked me for a
quarter I would give it to them. If they demanded it I wouldn't. At
cookie sales I might. if The child were bratty probably not. if the
child were respectful and said they wanted it to buy a mint I would.
If I did feel it was begging. And it did bother me. I would talk to
the leader about it. I wouldn't give her the quarter. Which someone
obviously did. So it apparently didn't bother that person!

People in grogery stores give my kids money. Just for being cute. I
think it's odd myself and would never do such a thing. But I don't
make my kids refuse the money as it makes these older people in the
grocery store feel good to give money to kids. People are different.

Katie

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2002 5:55:11 PM Central Standard Time,
katguts@... writes:

> And then
> she added that the girl was a different race and maybe it was a
> cultural thing. And that she couldn't get over that.

I didn't say I couldn't get over it. I said I can accept it as part of our
differences in culture, but it's unacceptable as part of fundraisers for our
club.

She can't do that when we're having our candy sale. I don't care what she
does otherwise. Simple as that.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joylyn

Actually, Tuck brought it up, twice. She said that all the kids she has
seen of this race beg for money and that the child is of a different
race than she is. I'm curious what race that is, as her comment seems
rather stereotypical.

Joylyn

Dnowens@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/20/02 3:42:18 PM Central Standard Time,
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> > I do have a qusetion for you. What race are you? What race is the
> child?
> >
> > joylyn
> >
>
> This is the second time race has come up. What is with all the race
> questions? Does it matter? I don't *know* Tuck personally, but I
> really doubt
> this is a factor in this problem, even if the little girl and Tuck are
> different races. Are you insinuating that the child stole the money
> because
> she is a certain race, or because she is a different race than the other
> girls or leaders?
>
> ~Nancy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

Joylyn

I'm not baiting you, I asked a question based on what you said. you
brought up race.

And I would still like to know the answer to my questions.

joylyn

Tuckervill@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/20/2002 3:42:24 PM Central Standard Time,
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> > I do have a qusetion for you. What race are you? What race is the
> child?
> >
> >
>
> It only matters that we have a cultural difference, and so I will not be
> baited into a discussion about racism.
>
> And no, my kids do not beg strangers for money.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

Joylyn

This whole conversation really bothers me. I could go out and look in
the archives and get your exact quotes, but it seems to me that you
brought up race. You brought up cultural differences.

My opinion of this is simple. I think you don't like this child. That's
OK, not everyone can like every child.

All kids steal. They do so for different reasons. A couple of weeks
ago my 4 year old said off handedly that when she needed extra quarters
she woudl go into the quarter collection in the girl scout stuff. I
thought she was kidding until I looked and realized that there was money
missing. Is it because she is black? No, it's because she's 4 and
doesn't understand things. My 7 year old was taking the cash that I'd
take out of my jeans and putting it in her banks. I saw her one time
and asked her to please let me know or ask me before, because I might
have needed that money for something. No big deal. We share in this
family and she assumed, for good reason, that we share money too. We do.

As a former teacher I had a few kids steal from me. I just gave them
more, more love, more attention. I kept food in my classroom as many of
them were hungry. And sometimes I gave them money so they could buy
from the bake sell or whatever. It was im portant to them, for many
different reasons. But these reasons had more to do with their home
life and little to do with their race or culture.

how do you know the girl didn't get the quarter from a family member.
A few weeks ago at our booth sale, one of the girls ran up to a strange
woman and the woman gave her some money, then walked away. I quickly
caught up to the woman and asked what was going on. Ends up she was the
child's aunt. We sell in our neighborhood so the girls often know the
people who are shopping, they are family members or neighbors. We have
an elderly neighbor who always gives the girls money, candy, little toys.

At any rate, I am rambling. You asked our opinion on this issue and
then you are mad because you don't like what we are saying.

I still would ike to know the race of the child and your own race.

joylyn

Asian folks drive crazy. I know this because I live in a city that is
mostly asian and they all drive crazy. They drive slow or fast, don't
signal, and it's because of where they come from. It's part of their
culture.

Black people steal. So do hispanics. It's part of their culture.

These comments are rude and stereotyping and not acceptable.

Tuckervill@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/20/2002 5:55:11 PM Central Standard Time,
> katguts@... writes:
>
> > And then
> > she added that the girl was a different race and maybe it was a
> > cultural thing. And that she couldn't get over that.
>
> I didn't say I couldn't get over it. I said I can accept it as part
> of our
> differences in culture, but it's unacceptable as part of fundraisers
> for our
> club.
>
> She can't do that when we're having our candy sale. I don't care what she
> does otherwise. Simple as that.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/02 5:54:44 PM, joylyn@... writes:

<< All kids steal. They do so for different reasons. >>

I disagree with the statement that all kids steal.

I never was under the impression that Tuck didn't like the girl in anything
she wrote.

Sandra

[email protected]

Tuck,

I understood your initial post about the child being of a different race
to mean that you meant a cultural difference. I think maybe this
particular poster took offense to the word 'race', as it is not used
interchangeably with culture. For example, I have friends that are a
different 'race' than I am but culturally come from very similar
backgrounds.

I certainly felt that your meaning was clear, but I'm thinking the term
used was a stumbling block...

What comes through loud and clear is your true concern for this child and
I don't think anyone questions that...

Theresa

On Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:09:00 EST Tuckervill@... writes:
> In a message dated 11/20/2002 3:42:24 PM Central Standard Time,
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> > I do have a qusetion for you. What race are you? What race is
> the child?
> >
> >
>
> It only matters that we have a cultural difference, and so I will
> not be
> baited into a discussion about racism.
>
> And no, my kids do not beg strangers for money.
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/02 6:33:53 PM Central Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:

> Actually, Tuck brought it up, twice. She said that all the kids she has
> seen of this race beg for money and that the child is of a different
> race than she is. I'm curious what race that is, as her comment seems
> rather stereotypical.
>
> Joylyn

I don't think Tuck said all kids of this (so far unknown) race beg for money.
If she did and you can find it in the archives, please repost it. I will
stand by my earlier comment that I doubt race of any sort, leaders, girls or
both, matter. I do remember Tuck saying that she and the girl have some
cultural differences, and those *could* be one of the reasons, but that is
about all I remember her saying on the subject. I really hope you aren't
trying to bait her or anyone else here into a racisim debate.

~Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Liza Sabater

Tuck, Theresa and all,

As a Puerto Rican black woman, as someone who has always been the
"other", I have to add to this from a different perspective.

That child knows you treat her differently for what she is. Believe
me, she knows.

You may have wanted to do the right thing but your main concern is
for the integrity of the group. Your main concern is to keep the
peace. Most certainly your main concern is to show her who's boss.
That is what leaders do.

I have so many stories of people trying to do right because I was the
"other race" or the "other culture". And this has come from people of
both sides of the fence because I was either too dark or too
light-skinned or I spoke English too well or because I just spoke
Spanish too well. The list goes on and on.

Believe me, the do-gooding never felt sincere.

There is nothing right now for you to do because you won. The family
of that child has already made sure that she says the right things
and does the right things so that she can fit in BECAUSE she is the
other.

Just take this to heart ----Is her race or her culture that
important? What race or culture has ingrained in its idiosyncrasy
that, yes, it is OK to ask money from strangers?

Let me leave with a little story: In Spanish, if you want to use
hyperbole to describe someone's skill with money you can say,
"Ese/Esa es un/a judía"; or "That one is a Jew". I met my first
Jewish person when I came to finish college at NYU --I was 19 years
old. The person in question was my roommate. Talk about clash of
cultures. She was an upper middle class "Ashkenazi" Orthodox Jew from
Philapdelphia, I was a working class PRican black Catholic from the
island. I learned a lot from her (gosh, can't remember her name right
now) but it took me years to get that what was a common moniker used
in my family is probably one of the most racist things that you could
say. Yep, my parents were racists (especially my father) and,
ironically, they worked actively in the Civil Rights Movement. And
that makes me a recovering-racist as well.

Which has taught me a great lesson. People do not understand how
prejudice is so deeply ingrained in speech until someone else calls
them on it.

I remember the day my husband (who is "white") was talking about the
"old" Springfield; about how there was only one black kid in the
local high school, how when he was little the darkest people were
Italians and anybody Jewish lived at the other side of Main Street.
So I turned in disbelief and asked him, "There were segregated towns
in NJ during the 60's?" He choked on a laugh because it was the first
time he reckoned with such a thought. His parents are like the most
laid back Irish Catholics you'll ever meet; supporters of the
unionized labor and CRM movements. I am sure they never thought
anything about where they lived in the terms that most "ethnics"
would look at it now. This is because they were the ethnics once.

It takes years to work on these foibles. The first step is acceptance.

Best,
Liza

Joylyn

Dnowens@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/20/02 6:33:53 PM Central Standard Time,
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> > Actually, Tuck brought it up, twice. She said that all the kids she
> has
> > seen of this race beg for money and that the child is of a different
> > race than she is. I'm curious what race that is, as her comment seems
> > rather stereotypical.
> >
> > Joylyn
>
> I don't think Tuck said all kids of this (so far unknown) race beg for
> money.
> If she did and you can find it in the archives, please repost it.

This is what I found... Message 10743

"Now I just have to deal with the girl's propensity to ask people
for money for herself. I realize this is a cultural issue--she's a
different
race than me. It happens to me on occasion, little kids--strangers to
me--approaching me and asking for quarters or dollars. Even had a boy about
9 come up and ask me if he could have a piece of our pizza! I find it rude
and obnoxious, and realize that others might feel differently. But what is
that about? I don't get it.

Tuck"

> I will
> stand by my earlier comment that I doubt race of any sort, leaders,
> girls or
> both, matter. I do remember Tuck saying that she and the girl have some
> cultural differences, and those *could* be one of the reasons, but
> that is
> about all I remember her saying on the subject. I really hope you aren't
> trying to bait her or anyone else here into a racisim debate.

I'm not baiting, I'm responding to a comment. I'd like to know what
race Tuck feels is prone to begging.

Joylyn

>
>
> ~Nancy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

Joylyn

Liza Sabater wrote:

> Tuck, Theresa and all,
>
> As a Puerto Rican black woman, as someone who has always been the
> "other", I have to add to this from a different perspective.
>
> That child knows you treat her differently for what she is. Believe
> me, she knows.

Yep. She does.

Thanks for writing the below Liza.

joylyn

>
>
> You may have wanted to do the right thing but your main concern is
> for the integrity of the group. Your main concern is to keep the
> peace. Most certainly your main concern is to show her who's boss.
> That is what leaders do.
>
> I have so many stories of people trying to do right because I was the
> "other race" or the "other culture". And this has come from people of
> both sides of the fence because I was either too dark or too
> light-skinned or I spoke English too well or because I just spoke
> Spanish too well. The list goes on and on.
>
> Believe me, the do-gooding never felt sincere.
>
> There is nothing right now for you to do because you won. The family
> of that child has already made sure that she says the right things
> and does the right things so that she can fit in BECAUSE she is the
> other.
>
> Just take this to heart ----Is her race or her culture that
> important? What race or culture has ingrained in its idiosyncrasy
> that, yes, it is OK to ask money from strangers?
>
> Let me leave with a little story: In Spanish, if you want to use
> hyperbole to describe someone's skill with money you can say,
> "Ese/Esa es un/a judía"; or "That one is a Jew". I met my first
> Jewish person when I came to finish college at NYU --I was 19 years
> old. The person in question was my roommate. Talk about clash of
> cultures. She was an upper middle class "Ashkenazi" Orthodox Jew from
> Philapdelphia, I was a working class PRican black Catholic from the
> island. I learned a lot from her (gosh, can't remember her name right
> now) but it took me years to get that what was a common moniker used
> in my family is probably one of the most racist things that you could
> say. Yep, my parents were racists (especially my father) and,
> ironically, they worked actively in the Civil Rights Movement. And
> that makes me a recovering-racist as well.
>
> Which has taught me a great lesson. People do not understand how
> prejudice is so deeply ingrained in speech until someone else calls
> them on it.
>
> I remember the day my husband (who is "white") was talking about the
> "old" Springfield; about how there was only one black kid in the
> local high school, how when he was little the darkest people were
> Italians and anybody Jewish lived at the other side of Main Street.
> So I turned in disbelief and asked him, "There were segregated towns
> in NJ during the 60's?" He choked on a laugh because it was the first
> time he reckoned with such a thought. His parents are like the most
> laid back Irish Catholics you'll ever meet; supporters of the
> unionized labor and CRM movements. I am sure they never thought
> anything about where they lived in the terms that most "ethnics"
> would look at it now. This is because they were the ethnics once.
>
> It takes years to work on these foibles. The first step is acceptance.
>
> Best,
> Liza
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/02 8:12:10 PM, joylyn@... writes:

<< > That child knows you treat her differently for what she is. Believe

> me, she knows.


<<Yep. She does. >>


So what's the recommendation?

I had this three days ago from someone who grew up with me in Espanola, who
married someone from South Carolina, who has lived in Virginia for over 20
years, whose husband is a curator at the Smithsonian:

-=-Sandra,

I can imagine how those old prejudices play into the lives of African
Americans, especially in the South. There are such stigmas to overcome.
Well, I guess I'll take back the "especially in the South" part of it,
because I know it could happen that way here, too, and probably further
north.

Once when I was at the National Gallery of Art with David, we were having a
snack at the cafeteria, and a black man came and sat down at the adjacent
table. He didn't have any food, which was suspicious. Anyway, he bent down
to tie his shoe (or so it seemed), and I thought, "that guy could be stealing
my purse" but dismissed it right away, judging myself to be prejudiced. He
looked right at me, too, and sort of smiled. Anyway, he then got up and
left, and I quickly looked down and checked to make sure my purse was still
on the floor where I had put it, and it was, so I kept talking to David. I
then decided to get up to buy an apple, and grabbed my purse, picked out an
apple, went to pay for it--and guess what? that guy HAD stolen my wallet!
So ever since then, I just try to be more careful. Also, I don't carry a
purse that someone can just slide his/her hand in and grab a wallet oupected
(I guess they are innocent until proven guilty) snipers ended up being black,
too.

cheers,
Ymelda

In a message dated 11/17/2002 5:55:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, SandraDodd
writes:


<< Two of the nurses (or a nurse and a tech) were in my room one morning
watching the sniper news on my TV, and when I told them they had had
witnesses and a description, and I said "A white guy in a blue sweater" they
both seemed really relieved that it wasn't a black guy.

Out here nobody would've cared one way or another if there was a sniper if
he was black or anglo or hispanic or whatever. I'm not saying I don't
understand what they were thinking!! Just it's different.

They hung out with me a while that morning and told me how bad it had been
when that woman who rolled her kids into the water in their carseats had lied
and said a black man had kidnapped them. When I saw that story from my
far-away perspective, at the time, that detail was small. But to them it was
big.

Bummer, then that it did turn out to be NOT a white guy.

Sandra
>>

So. There's a private conversation. Tear it up if you want to.

Joylyn, this is a cultural scenario:

If you were with your girls at the New Mexico State Fair, and it was getting
dark, would you more likely shy away from a batch of teens from the Academy,
or from the same number and gender of teens if the girls had mall hair and
the guys all had hairnets and Our Lady of Guadalupe t-shirts?

Jesse Jackson said once he was appalled that when he was walking around in
Washington he was afraid to be followed by a black man.

How far does colorblindness go? Does one leave the house open to prove
trust? Leave the car unlocked? Equally in all neighborhoods and situations?
Is it racist for me to worry about Marty and his friend being downtown
after a concert tomorrow night without any adults with them until Keith shows
up? Or is it just sensible fear of the area around the Sunshine Theatre at
ANY time of day or night? It's not a question of race or ethnicity. A
homeschooled teen came through and asked me to leave her at the train station
one night at 3:00 a.m. or so. NO WAY, I said. For one thing, the train
station doesn't even have a waiting room. Turns out it was a bus ride to El
Paso or some such to catch a train. I wasn't leaving her at the bus station
either. We walked her in.

My half brother is as anglo as they come. His name's Justin Bradley. If any
of you meet him, don't trust him. He's a known habitual liar, thief, drunk
and drug user. VERY charming and personable. He has taken in counsellors,
parole officers, psychiatrists and judges.

What does all this mean? And those who are accusing Tuck of prejudice, what
are your recommendations?

Sandra

Joylyn

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>
> In a message dated 11/20/02 8:12:10 PM, joylyn@... writes:
>
> << > That child knows you treat her differently for what she is. Believe
>
> > me, she knows.
>
>
> <<Yep. She does. >>
>
>
> So what's the recommendation?

The first thing one must do to overcome something is to admit there is a
problem. Denying that there is a problem doesn't solve anything.
Beyond that I don't have a recomendation.

>
>
> I had this three days ago from someone who grew up with me in
> Espanola, who
> married someone from South Carolina, who has lived in Virginia for
> over 20
> years, whose husband is a curator at the Smithsonian:
>
> -=-Sandra,
>
> I can imagine how those old prejudices play into the lives of African
> Americans, especially in the South. There are such stigmas to overcome.
> Well, I guess I'll take back the "especially in the South" part of it,
> because I know it could happen that way here, too, and probably further
> north.

Yes, and in california, and in New Mexico. I do admit that I think, and
Mark agrees, that New Mexico, with it's diverse culture that is not
primarily anglo, was better than california. I see a LOT of racism out
here in california, from people being rude to those from Mexico, to
people asking if my kids are foster children, to the fact that when my
family and I looked for a place to rent, we didn't find somethign but
when I went alone, I found somethign quickly. That happened in New
Mexico too. When we had foster kids (one black, one hispanic, Mark and
me), I went looking for a house to rent. I found a nice one near UNM,
and put a deposit on it. We met the owner 3 hours later to sign the
papers, but this time Mark and the kids came with me. It was pretty
obvious by the look on his face he was shocked, but I was shocked when
he returned my check to me and said that he had rented the place to
someone who paid him 6 months rent in cash as well as the deposit and he
couldn't pass it up. Racism is everywhere, it is just more subtle then
it was 30 years ago. Personally, I prefer the in your face racist to
the subtle "cultural differences" closet racist who doesn't really know,
honestly, that they are being racist. The old ladies who just LOVE my
kids, think they are so beautiful, and rave about them--they are trying
to prove to themselves that they are not racist but I see right through
them. Just as Mark saw right through the high school counselor who
suggested he take shop or other vocational classes because he'd never
make it to college anyway, and he needed a life skill. Anyway, the old
prejudices are alive and well.

Snipping some good stuff.

>
>
> They hung out with me a while that morning and told me how bad it had
> been
> when that woman who rolled her kids into the water in their carseats
> had lied
> and said a black man had kidnapped them. When I saw that story from my
> far-away perspective, at the time, that detail was small. But to them
> it was
> big.

Yeah it was. Until you worry each night as your husband drives home
from a gig that he might be pulled over for DWB, people don't understand
how big that was. How many black men were questioned until she came
forward and admitted she had murdered her own children? A lot. I
remember this and remember talking to Mark about it and saying I thought
she had done it, before she admitted it. The black man excuse, it's
used all the time.

>
> Joylyn, this is a cultural scenario:
>
> If you were with your girls at the New Mexico State Fair, and it was
> getting
> dark, would you more likely shy away from a batch of teens from the
> Academy,
> or from the same number and gender of teens if the girls had mall hair
> and
> the guys all had hairnets and Our Lady of Guadalupe t-shirts?

Well, actually, probably the academy kids. I've had experience with
those brats and don't wish to have anythign to do with them. There is
also that god awful christain school down by the freeway that used to
call the kids from our private school dropouts (how can kids going to a
private school be dropouts?) and would foul them at every opportunity
when we played sports against them. And as I taught in the valley and
as my brother looks more like the latter group than the former, and as I
love the state fair, I probably would not shy away from either group but
would continue doing what I wished. My brother does security at the
fair so I may have a different view point of it.

However, Mark and Ihave also discussed this. he will be driving down
the freeway, 70 mph, and some white lady will look over and see him and
lock her doors. Like he's going to jump out of his moving car and get
her, please. It is not reasonable behavior. However, if I am alone in
an elevator, or waiting for one, and I see a man about to get on with
me, I think about it. The color is not important, however, what my
tummy (as lexie says) indicates is important. I have gotten off the
elevator and waited for the next one because my tummy said I wasn't
safe. But I know that looks don't say a thing. My brother looks
scarey. If you saw him at the fair, you would probably walk the other
way. He's big, very dark, long hair, and has an attitude, especially
when he's working security or just hanging around. But he's a big baby.
However, he gets followed in stores, always has. We used to play a
game with th is. He would go into a store and then be followed and I
would then follow the employee that was following him.

So to answer your question, I think I would think about where I was. I
dont' go on the midway at night without my brother or my husband. I
stick to the daytime, but then, I haven't been to the fair in years--I
need to go to NM next year in early september, I miss the NM state fair.
I think it's less about color or hairnets, etc. as it is about taking
basic precautions, listening to my insticts, and looking at more than
the cover of a person and stereotypes.

> Jesse Jackson said once he was appalled that when he was walking
> around in
> Washington he was afraid to be followed by a black man.

but was he afraid of the black man or of the man?

When I was 18 I dated a man. He was funny, cute, tall, had a great
smile, treated me so nice. But when we kissed, there was nothign there.
I remember having a discussion with my mom. Was I racist? I mean,
this was the first black man I had dated, is that why I felt nothing.
My mom reminded me that perhaps the color had nothing to do with it. I
had dated white, hispanic, etc. men before and felt nothing and just
moved on. Wasn't that the point of dating? to see what kind of man I
liked? And I realized, I did like this person, but there wasn't any
thing more to it, he was just a good friend. It had nothing to do with
color, it was just that we didn't click.

>
>
> How far does colorblindness go?

I dont' like color blindness. I have always said that the world should
not be color blind, nor should it be focussed on color--it should just
be colorful.

> Does one leave the house open to prove
> trust? Leave the car unlocked? Equally in all neighborhoods and
> situations?
> Is it racist for me to worry about Marty and his friend being downtown
> after a concert tomorrow night without any adults with them until
> Keith shows
> up? Or is it just sensible fear of the area around the Sunshine
> Theatre at
> ANY time of day or night? It's not a question of race or ethnicity. A
> homeschooled teen came through and asked me to leave her at the train
> station
> one night at 3:00 a.m. or so. NO WAY, I said. For one thing, the train
> station doesn't even have a waiting room. Turns out it was a bus ride
> to El
> Paso or some such to catch a train. I wasn't leaving her at the bus
> station
> either. We walked her in.

Of course you did. It is silly to not take precautions in what could be
dangerous situations. I tell my girls, and my girlscouts, that if they
get lost they should first look for an employee and second look for a
person in uniform (police, fire, etc.) and if they can't find either of
those, to go to a mother with children. Not a dad with children, not a
single woman, not an old grandma type, but a mom with children.
Statistically that is the safest way to get help. But I also say trust
what your tummy says. If you walk up to the employee and your tummy is
saying get away, then get away and find someone else. Is that sexist to
say find a woman with children? Probably, but it's also safest. Mark
has said he is not offended when he is on a dark street and a woman
speeds up or crosses the street. It is what he would expect me to do.
it is what I would do. But it's not about being black or white, it's
about being safe.

>
>
> My half brother is as anglo as they come. His name's Justin Bradley.
> If any
> of you meet him, don't trust him. He's a known habitual liar, thief,
> drunk
> and drug user. VERY charming and personable. He has taken in
> counsellors,
> parole officers, psychiatrists and judges.
>
> What does all this mean? And those who are accusing Tuck of
> prejudice, what
> are your recommendations?

I am not accusing Tuck of prejudice. I have asked what race she is and
what race the child in question is. Only she can decide if there is
something more. I did not bring up race, she did. But race, and
racism, is a part of our world. To deny that is stupid, and doesn't
help change come about. Only by talking about it, thinking about it,
can we effect change.

Joylyn

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2002 6:33:53 PM Central Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:

> She said that all the kids she has
> seen of this race beg for money and that the child is of a different
> race than she is. I'm curious what race that is, as her comment seems
> rather stereotypical.
>

I didn't say all the kids of this race beg for money. I said all the kids
who have begged money or pizza from me have been of this race.

There is a HUGE difference, and I don't appreciate you trying to skew it any
other way.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2002 6:54:44 PM Central Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:

> My opinion of this is simple. I think you don't like this child. That's
> OK, not everyone can like every child.
>

Nothing could be further from the truth. I like all the children in our
club. Your opinion of that is irrelevant to me.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2002 6:54:44 PM Central Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:

> You asked our opinion on this issue and
> then you are mad because you don't like what we are saying.
>

Again, your characterization of my emotional state couldn't be more wrong.

I know I opened myself up to criticism and misunderstanding by noting that we
were of different races. I wanted to state right on that I believe there are
cultural differences between races and I have said that I am willing to
accept them. I wanted to know what others think of this thing I have noticed
that I've said I don't see in my subculture, and what others think I should
do about it.

Except for stating the facts of the situation, and making sure no one
misstates what I said, I will not participate in any discussion of racism,
especially when it's clear any accusations are going to be flung my way.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**If you were with your girls at the New Mexico State Fair, and it was
getting dark, would you more likely shy away from a batch of teens from
the Academy, or from the same number and gender of teens if the girls
had mall hair and the guys all had hairnets and Our Lady of Guadalupe t-shirts?**

I shy away from pairs and/or groups of men that don't have women with
them. And teens and twenty-somethings often strike me as more menacing
than the middle-aged. And really old guys don't scare me much at all.

Prejudice, or rule of thumb, not sure which I'm using. I guess I'm
prejudiced in favor of women and the middle-aged (that's me) which may
be unfair to the rest of the world.

Some day perhaps an innocuous little old lady will take advantage of me.
Rules of thumb ARE a form of lazy thinking.

I don't tend to be in areas that have lots of crime in the daytime. At
night time I try to keep my wariness of groups of men *internal* and
*equal* based on the size of the group. I try to be equally wary of all
of them. I'm trying to iron out my racism. But I'm letting the sexism stand.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2002 7:16:19 PM Central Standard Time,
mzmercury@... writes:

> What comes through loud and clear is your true concern for this child and
> I don't think anyone questions that...
>
> Theresa
>

Thank you, very moch.

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy

**When I was 18 I dated a man. He was funny, cute, tall, had a great
smile, treated me so nice. But when we kissed, there was nothign there.
I remember having a discussion with my mom. Was I racist? I mean,
this was the first black man I had dated, is that why I felt nothing.
My mom reminded me that perhaps the color had nothing to do with it. I
had dated white, hispanic, etc. men before and felt nothing and just
moved on. Wasn't that the point of dating? to see what kind of man I
liked? And I realized, I did like this person, but there wasn't any
thing more to it, he was just a good friend. It had nothing to do with
color, it was just that we didn't click. **


::::: apologies in advance to Tuck for raking over her life :::::

I, like Joylyn, caught a whiff of an implication that maybe Tuck didn't
particularly adore the girl accused of taking a dollar. But if my
perception is true, and it isn't necessarily, I would assume that her
attitude is based on personality and chemistry not on race, as in the
example above.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/20/2002 11:42:02 PM Central Standard Time,
joylyn@... writes:

> Personally, I prefer the in your face racist to
> the subtle "cultural differences" closet racist who doesn't really know,
> honestly, that they are being racist.

Are you calling me a racist?

Are you saying there are no such things as cultural differences?

Tuck


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joylyn

Tuckervill@... wrote:

> In a message dated 11/20/2002 11:42:02 PM Central Standard Time,
> joylyn@... writes:
>
> > Personally, I prefer the in your face racist to
> > the subtle "cultural differences" closet racist who doesn't really
> know,
> > honestly, that they are being racist.
>
> Are you calling me a racist?

no

>
>
> Are you saying there are no such things as cultural differences?

no

Joylyn

>
>
> Tuck
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
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Liza Sabater

To Sandra and all,

First of all, I made the point that I have gotten the bite of
prejudice and racism from both sides of the track --for being either
too black or too light and, yes, I have even been accused of being
too white (because I do not speak English with a Spanish accent). So
this is not about race vs. race. My comment was about how subtle and
ingrained prejudices can be that, those who consider themselves
progressive have not reckoned with what gets them in the same band
wagon than those who hide under hooded sheets.

Best example? My using the word Jew to describe people and not to
refer to a person who believes in Judaism. Notice that I do not refer
to Judaism as a race since I have a problem with calling Jews a race
because, obviously, they come in many colors, flavors and sizes
--Ethiopian and Chinese Jews come to mind. Now I can make that
opinion because I have had to reckoned with my (I do not what to call
it) passive/latent/unconscious prejudice. That prejudice was so
natural to me that I grew up hearing about the heroes of the Civil
Rights Movement and yet had no idea how antisemite I was. Not out of
hatred but pure ignorance.

Comments like Tucker's do not come out of hatred but out of
ignorance. She wants to the right thing but she still cannot go past
the "all the people her color/race/culture as money from me" because
they are still all lumped together. It's the "all Chinese people look
the same syndrome". It is when we are in the position of dealing
intimately with a person from another race or ethnicity that these
things come out to fore.

What can you do? Nothing. Just keep a note of it. If this is a
situation, or a thought, or an action or even a conversation that has
happened more than once in your life, then you could take it as a
little wake-up call. We all could, BTW. Tucker's is an example of
what happens to everyone.

This is not about being good or bad. Prejudice is two steps away from
bigotry but one step closer to resentment. The resentment that says,
"well two people did this to me so obviously all people that look/are
like them do it so I might as well avoid them". That social kind of
resentment says blacks drop property values or Chinese are good at
math or, better yet, people of so-and-so race always beg for money.
That I find is more pervasive than bigotry. With outright bigotry you
know what's coming. Social resentment, that is the most vampiric,
energy sucking activity that bashes people down, takes away hope and
can only end up in alienation.

So no, this is not about doing the busy doing of anything. This is
about waking up.

Cheers,
Liza



>In a message dated 11/20/02 8:12:10 PM, joylyn@... writes:
>
><< > That child knows you treat her differently for what she is. Believe
>
>> me, she knows.
>
>
><<Yep. She does. >>
>
>So what's the recommendation?



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