Re: Christmas (long, sorry) was Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Unschoolingand Santa
The Mowery Family
They also said that they estimated the trip for the magi would have taken at
least 5 to 6 months - so, once the news had made its way around and they got
the camels together for the road trip, that would make sense for them to
make the Jan 6th(little christmas in our house).
Also, the April date correlates with Passover, which would mean everyone had
gone back to their town of birth, hence no room at the inn.
Neat info from the Feast website Nancy.
Karen M.
_________________________________________________________
Poor Constantine gets blamed for everything. <g>
From a website on The Feast of the Nativity:
No record is found as to the date when the Nativity Feast of our Lord began
to be celebrated as a separate feast. It is known, however, that in the
early Christian Church the Birth of Christ, Adoration of the Magi and
Theophany [western Epiphany] were celebrated on the same day, January 6. The
date of introduction of the Nativity Feast into the Church calendar was
different in all 5 Patriarchates (Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria,
Constantinople and Rome). The Church of Jerusalem was the last one to adopt
this feast in the 6th century.
December the 25th, was the date of a pagan festival in Rome, originated in
274 by the emperor Aurelian, as the birthday of the "unconquered sun"
(natalis solis invicti). Sometime before 336, the Church of Rome established
a commemorative festival of the birth of Christ, the Son of Righteousness.
The first evidence of the Nativity celebration in the East, as a separate
feast, comes from Constantinople.
In 381, Gregory the Theologian delivered his 39th sermon on the feast of
Theophany and called it the festival of lights, commemorating the Baptism of
Christ, the true light. He speaks of the Nativity as recently past and
reminds his audience that in the Nativity Feast they followed the star,
worshipped with the Magi, were bathed in light with shepherds, glorified God
with angels, took Christ in their arms with Simeon and confessed Him with
Anna. He continues: "Now, however, at Theophany, this is another event and
another mystery, the Baptism.¹
On December 20, 386, in his sermon on the martyr Philogonius, St. John
Chrysostom looks forward to the Nativity Feast as the Birthday of Christ and
the festival from which all the other come. He also mentions the visit of
the Magi as commemorated on the Nativity day. And then, five days later, in
his sermon delivered on the Feast of the Nativity, Chrysostom says that this
feast has been known to Antiochenes for less than 10 years, although it has
been known longer in the West.
It is also known that the separation of the Nativity and the Baptism into
two different holy days occurred in Egypt (Patriarchate of Alexandria) in
the second half of the 5th century, shortly before the false teacher Arius
died.
***
[me again]
The early church didn't consider the whens and wheres of Christ's birth
important, although the New Testament church included the Virgin Mary among
its members; she knew when and where she gave birth, and probably passed on
the information. That's why there's a church in a cave near Bethlehem.
Tradition holds that Luke, who records the event Linus recites in "A Charlie
Brown Christmas," spent time with Mary, essentially interviewing her for his
gospel. (Not being a disciple, he got his info. second hand.) Caesar
Augustus would have had anarchy on his hands if he'd demanded the entire
populace travel to their home towns in *December*; it had to have been
spring. The lambs wouldn't have been born yet, and no sheep would have been
out on the hills at night. (I think, though, that if you're going to
believe in a virgin birth, you might as well believe in angels, too.)
The date for the feast WAS chosen to coincide with winter solstice, and yes,
there was a Roman holiday for the sun on that day. If you've seen
"Gladiator," which takes place around 192, you'll get a good idea of what
Roman pagan festivals were like - it was Constantine who outlawed the
gladiatorial contests as barbaric, inhuman rituals. The church did choose
the same day, since the newly Christian populace needed something more
civilized to do, and created a feast to replace it. The hymnography
emphasizes the "Sun/Son of Righteousness," not the little baby away in a
manger.
"Your Nativity O Christ our God
Has shone to the world the light of wisdom
For by it those who worshipped the stars
Were taught by a star to adore you,
The Sun of Righteousness,
And to know you, the Orient from on High.
O Lord, glory to you!"
(Orthodox troparion for the Nativity)
Nancy
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[email protected]
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least 5 to 6 months - so, once the news had made its way around and they got
the camels together for the road trip, that would make sense for them to
make the Jan 6th(little christmas in our house).
Also, the April date correlates with Passover, which would mean everyone had
gone back to their town of birth, hence no room at the inn.
Neat info from the Feast website Nancy.
Karen M.
_________________________________________________________
Poor Constantine gets blamed for everything. <g>
From a website on The Feast of the Nativity:
No record is found as to the date when the Nativity Feast of our Lord began
to be celebrated as a separate feast. It is known, however, that in the
early Christian Church the Birth of Christ, Adoration of the Magi and
Theophany [western Epiphany] were celebrated on the same day, January 6. The
date of introduction of the Nativity Feast into the Church calendar was
different in all 5 Patriarchates (Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria,
Constantinople and Rome). The Church of Jerusalem was the last one to adopt
this feast in the 6th century.
December the 25th, was the date of a pagan festival in Rome, originated in
274 by the emperor Aurelian, as the birthday of the "unconquered sun"
(natalis solis invicti). Sometime before 336, the Church of Rome established
a commemorative festival of the birth of Christ, the Son of Righteousness.
The first evidence of the Nativity celebration in the East, as a separate
feast, comes from Constantinople.
In 381, Gregory the Theologian delivered his 39th sermon on the feast of
Theophany and called it the festival of lights, commemorating the Baptism of
Christ, the true light. He speaks of the Nativity as recently past and
reminds his audience that in the Nativity Feast they followed the star,
worshipped with the Magi, were bathed in light with shepherds, glorified God
with angels, took Christ in their arms with Simeon and confessed Him with
Anna. He continues: "Now, however, at Theophany, this is another event and
another mystery, the Baptism.¹
On December 20, 386, in his sermon on the martyr Philogonius, St. John
Chrysostom looks forward to the Nativity Feast as the Birthday of Christ and
the festival from which all the other come. He also mentions the visit of
the Magi as commemorated on the Nativity day. And then, five days later, in
his sermon delivered on the Feast of the Nativity, Chrysostom says that this
feast has been known to Antiochenes for less than 10 years, although it has
been known longer in the West.
It is also known that the separation of the Nativity and the Baptism into
two different holy days occurred in Egypt (Patriarchate of Alexandria) in
the second half of the 5th century, shortly before the false teacher Arius
died.
***
[me again]
The early church didn't consider the whens and wheres of Christ's birth
important, although the New Testament church included the Virgin Mary among
its members; she knew when and where she gave birth, and probably passed on
the information. That's why there's a church in a cave near Bethlehem.
Tradition holds that Luke, who records the event Linus recites in "A Charlie
Brown Christmas," spent time with Mary, essentially interviewing her for his
gospel. (Not being a disciple, he got his info. second hand.) Caesar
Augustus would have had anarchy on his hands if he'd demanded the entire
populace travel to their home towns in *December*; it had to have been
spring. The lambs wouldn't have been born yet, and no sheep would have been
out on the hills at night. (I think, though, that if you're going to
believe in a virgin birth, you might as well believe in angels, too.)
The date for the feast WAS chosen to coincide with winter solstice, and yes,
there was a Roman holiday for the sun on that day. If you've seen
"Gladiator," which takes place around 192, you'll get a good idea of what
Roman pagan festivals were like - it was Constantine who outlawed the
gladiatorial contests as barbaric, inhuman rituals. The church did choose
the same day, since the newly Christian populace needed something more
civilized to do, and created a feast to replace it. The hymnography
emphasizes the "Sun/Son of Righteousness," not the little baby away in a
manger.
"Your Nativity O Christ our God
Has shone to the world the light of wisdom
For by it those who worshipped the stars
Were taught by a star to adore you,
The Sun of Righteousness,
And to know you, the Orient from on High.
O Lord, glory to you!"
(Orthodox troparion for the Nativity)
Nancy
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Cindy
Nancy Wooton wrote:
to climb down a flight of stairs. The door to that church is also very
small - the tour guide told us it was to keep Arabic (Muslim) horseman
from riding thru the church. Men also are to have their head bare which
would prevent many Orthodox men from entering the church.
great following in the Roman armies. Interestingly enough, Mithras
was born of a virgin mother too. I would not place much historical
accuracy in "Gladiator" - about all I could substantiate was that
Commodus did succeed his father Marcus Aurelias but by the decree
of Marcus Aurelias. Commodus was killed by a gladiator in the arena
and it was an assasination arranged by the Praetorian Guard - they
were tired of Commodus's excesses. The Romans were barbaric and inhumane
by our standards but then so were many Christian nations well into the
Renaissance.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>Actually the church is over the cave. To get to the actual cave you have
> The early church didn't consider the whens and wheres of Christ's birth
> important, although the New Testament church included the Virgin Mary among
> its members; she knew when and where she gave birth, and probably passed on
> the information. That's why there's a church in a cave near Bethlehem.
>
to climb down a flight of stairs. The door to that church is also very
small - the tour guide told us it was to keep Arabic (Muslim) horseman
from riding thru the church. Men also are to have their head bare which
would prevent many Orthodox men from entering the church.
> The date for the feast WAS chosen to coincide with winter solstice, and yes,I recall hearing that December 25 was the birth of Mithras who had a
> there was a Roman holiday for the sun on that day. If you've seen
> "Gladiator," which takes place around 192, you'll get a good idea of what
> Roman pagan festivals were like - it was Constantine who outlawed the
> gladiatorial contests as barbaric, inhuman rituals.
>
great following in the Roman armies. Interestingly enough, Mithras
was born of a virgin mother too. I would not place much historical
accuracy in "Gladiator" - about all I could substantiate was that
Commodus did succeed his father Marcus Aurelias but by the decree
of Marcus Aurelias. Commodus was killed by a gladiator in the arena
and it was an assasination arranged by the Praetorian Guard - they
were tired of Commodus's excesses. The Romans were barbaric and inhumane
by our standards but then so were many Christian nations well into the
Renaissance.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Nancy Wooton
on 12/19/01 8:31 PM, The Mowery Family at jkkddmowery@... wrote:
towns? Also, didn't the census effect the entire Roman empire ("all the
world should be taxed"), and thus would not have had a specific Jewish
religious connection?
Nancy
> Also, the April date correlates with Passover, which would mean everyone hadWouldn't they have all been going to Jerusalem, though, not to their own
> gone back to their town of birth, hence no room at the inn.
towns? Also, didn't the census effect the entire Roman empire ("all the
world should be taxed"), and thus would not have had a specific Jewish
religious connection?
Nancy
zenmomma *
><< Interestingly enough, MithrasYes. Anakin Skywalker, too.
>was born of a virgin mother too. >>
>
>They weren't the only two, Mithras and Jesus.>>
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
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zenmomma *
>LOL Mary! That has bugged me too, since we saw episode I.I think the implication is that he is the chosen one. In fact, they may even
>Who IS Anakin's father? I bet whoever it was gave him all those
>midi-chlorians. :-)
use those words. I can't remember. i just remember it being very
allegorical.
~Mary
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Karin
LOL Mary! That has bugged me too, since we saw episode I.
Who IS Anakin's father? I bet whoever it was gave him all those midi-chlorians. :-)
Karin
~Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Who IS Anakin's father? I bet whoever it was gave him all those midi-chlorians. :-)
Karin
><< Interestingly enough, MithrasYes. Anakin Skywalker, too.
>was born of a virgin mother too. >>
>
>They weren't the only two, Mithras and Jesus.>>
~Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cindy
zenmomma * wrote:
anyone when Anakin was conceived. We got the movie on DVD last week.
I think it's time to watch it again!
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>I thought Anakin's mother made it clear that she hadn't "been with"
> >LOL Mary! That has bugged me too, since we saw episode I.
> >Who IS Anakin's father? I bet whoever it was gave him all those
> >midi-chlorians. :-)
>
> I think the implication is that he is the chosen one. In fact, they may even
> use those words. I can't remember. i just remember it being very
> allegorical.
>
anyone when Anakin was conceived. We got the movie on DVD last week.
I think it's time to watch it again!
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...