[email protected]

This is a response to something many days old which at the time was too big
to answer and still might be. <g>

-=-Aaron is 5, he

loves his Whirly Wheels, games, snuggling with Mom, Futurama and

SpongeBob. All three love Nintendo and the computer (and I could tell

100 stories of things they've learned from them!).-=-

Holly's a Futurama fan. Have you looked at my video games page? It was made
following a presentation at a conference a couple of years ago on the
benefits of video games:

http://sandradodd.com/games/page

If you want to end me some video game stories for that it would be great!

-=-Now my question. I don't have the playdate problem, but I do run into

issues with other children. I am the children's officer for our local

SCA branch -=-

All I could think of when I read that paragraph was what I've been thinking
for years about it. The SCA shouldn't have children's officers. As I could
rant for hours, I won't even begin.

-=- Most (probably all) of the children are in public school

or daycare. I run my activities much like unschooling-=-

The problem with lack of structure when others expect structure is they don't
get it and they don't know how to act.

In the 60's and early 70's, educators KNEW, from research and proof in
practice, that the open classroom worked and elminated many of the problems they
knew school had not been able to avoid to that point. Lots of people knew.

In implementation in public school, it didn't work. After all that proving,
they couldn't reproduce it in public schools. The main factors seemed to
have been
1) the teachers didn't get it
2) the students didn't get it
3) the parents didn't get it

but worse than all that, it seems, it only work when the kids want to be
there.
If the kids are there against their will, they'll balk at anything. And once
kids have been taught (by school, indirectly) to avoid what they're not
forced to do, and to get away with as much wildness as possible before someone
makes them Sit Down and Be Quiet, it's hard to get good results without the long
period of deschooling it would take for them to trust and appreciate the
freedom and to really want to be there.

-=-One problem I have is that some children take advantage of this and

hoard - materials, prizes, whatever. We'll have a game where all

participants get a token and they'll pretend they lost it to get

another. On one hand, I don't mind this (if they really need a second

plastic ring, it's just not that huge of a deal), -=-

Plastic rings aren't period, and that's one of my (several) objections to
children's activities. They don't really enable children to be involved so much
as they create a holding space where the kids do non-period, vaguely-SCA
things.

But other than that, when you're dealing with mainstream kids, you are. The
problems of trying to do school (no matter how informal) or daycare (if the
kids are younger) are not different in costumes.

-=-The younger kids (6 and under) are SO fun, they are so creative

and have no set idea of how things must be. The older kids, tho ...

will compare supplies, he got a better color, her yarn is longer, etc.

Wait until told exactly what to do (you may start now ... ). Have to be

shown how to draw a face. Will only draw it EXACTLY the way I show them

(or like the sample).-=-

You already know what the deal is.
I can't think of anything that will make it better.

Ideally, if you could have two or three stations with people doing things so
the kids could wander and pick and choose, that might work better.

But you won't and shouldn't have two or three teens or adults who want to
dedicate their days to children's activities.

-=-Someone had a piñata once - not my idea - and the older

kids bashed it before the small kids had a chance -=-

Pinatas have to be carefully managed, little kids first, clear the space,
etc., or that's likely to happen anytime, anywhere. It's not about the SCA.
It's about pinatas and sticks. <g>

-=-Any ideas on either how to get these kids to loosen up a

bit, or for me to stop worrying about it? :) -=-

Philosophical innoculation on your part, maybe. You've already said if you q
uit the next person might be more schoolish. Probably WILL be. But meanwhile
you're not participating in the SCA yourself in the natal-learning way it was
Zdesigned to work, and neither are your children.

-=- I mostly

enjoy it, and my replacement could be more school-y and then my own

kids wouldn't want to participate. -=-

Probably the best thing for your children would be to not want to participate
in organized children's activities. What if you just organize running
games, chase, jumprope, things that are easily participated in or not, and easily
abandoned when the interest lags, and just do it on your own time, for your
children's sake?

The SCA is educational because people research their own personas and create
their costumes and armor. Or at least they used to. Now it can be bought off
the rack. The SCA is a learning experience when a person wants to know more.
The SCA becomes a school when the groups cares more about organized classes
and keeping kids isolated from the activities at large than about having
events so rich and fascinating that no energetic or curious person could possibly
get bored.

Strong opinions based on 25 years participation and having three kids grow up
in it. They learn more from asking questions and helping and doing real
things. They are accepted as participants by participating, not by attending
children's activities.

We as a kingdom (Outlands) have resisted children's activities for years, but
just lately a corporate ruling says we have to have children's officers. I
think its another move in the wrong direction. My work at corporate level
(I'm ten years out from my last corporate office, but have held corporate
positions up from seneschals twice and up from chroniclers twice) was always aimed
to LESS administration, LESS bureaucracy, simple-and-pure feast and tournament
focus. Ultimately, I lose. But I held them off for a long time.

Sorry I couldn't respond sooner. Too big, too close. Too sad for me.

Sandra

carelia

> This is a response to something many days old which at the time was
> too big
> to answer and still might be. <g>

Sorry about that. :)

> Holly's a Futurama fan. Have you looked at my video games page? It
> was made
> following a presentation at a conference a couple of years ago on the
> benefits of video games:
>
> http://sandradodd.com/games/page

I have, great article (I've read most of your pages numerous times).
I'll try to get some stories written down for you.

>> -=- I am the children's officer for our local SCA branch -=-
>
> All I could think of when I read that paragraph was what I've been
> thinking
> for years about it. The SCA shouldn't have children's officers. As
> I could
> rant for hours, I won't even begin.

<lots of other really good stuff deleted>

I know, and I agree, the kids should be an active, vital part of
whatever else is going on around them. This is an excellent chance for
them to get involved and have a great time and learn things that are
relevant to them, by experiencing and talking and asking and being. BUT
the reality is, MoC's exist, because, as you probably know, some people
don't want kids hanging around (and because now we have to have them),
and because mainstream parents are used to sending their children away
for large portions of a day. At my first event doing things for the
kids, I had numerous people (NON-PARENTS) come up to me and thank me
for entertaining the children - so they were left alone and didn't have
kids bothering them all day (very sad - I was left speechless, tho I am
not sure why it surprised me). I would LOVE to see the children just
being part of things, but it doesn't happen (and not just because of
children's officers - one of my big things has been trying to get the
children accepted more, in court, in Arts and Sciences competitions,
etc. - it's working a little on a local level). I think this is what
bothers me, the conflict between the reality and the ideal.

I should say as far as activities, I DO a lot of multiple station-type
activities, and they are just THERE (with or without a "teacher",
depends on the activity). Children are not forced or even asked (by ME
anyway, I have no control over their parents) to participate in any
fashion (I prefer to use the child underground information network to
get the word out, I don't go around ringing a bell and telling people
now it's time for the kids to come play - some MoC's do - ugh). If they
show up, ok. If they need help creating, fine, we're there to help.
They want to use the markers to color all over their body, no problem
(for me anyway, I think it's cute, they look like Picts ;). We have a
lot of running games, running around and doing nothing, props for the
kids to make up their own games, etc. I did it for my own kids, and
others joined in, and our area did not have an MoC, so I started doing
it officially. Honestly, I don't do things on that level any
differently, except that I have MORE stuff and a dedicated area for it.
I frequently have adults come over and participate because we're having
fun. We also generally have events at parks, and if I didn't run
activities, 90%+ of the kids would be over on the slide and swings
anyway (which is GREAT if that's what they want, but frequently it's
the only option they are given - point being they wouldn't be
participating in the event activities anyway).

With my own kids, my oldest (16) WANTS to participate with the
children. She's not really interested in the historical aspects, or
costumes or whatever, she likes to play with kids. She's happy, I'm
happy. My boys are free to participate or not at events. They don't
like events where I'm not doing the children's activities (the
activities are too structured, boring and school-y), and they don't
feel welcome with the adults.

My point was (after all this length), I agree with what you said, and
it IS frustrating, and I am trying to do what I can in the system to
make things a tiny bit better. It's not enough, but it's not making
things worse. SOMEONE has to do the job. Might as well be me, and not
an actual credentialed teacher who wants to take away ALL of the joy.

Btw, I hate plastic rings too, but unfortunately my budget doesn't
allow for more period toys for prizes (for ALL the time). I try to give
things like wooden tops when possible. I am always working on making
activities more period and less peri-oid, within some modern safety
sensibilities (and unfortunately, budget concerns). I also have a lot
of activities that don't require the giving of a prize.

Thanks for your insights. I knew you'd have a strong opinion on this. ;)

C.

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/23/04 1:10:38 PM, carelia@... writes:

<< BUT
the reality is, MoC's exist, because, as you probably know, some people
don't want kids hanging around >>

Yeah, but the reality is you don't have to aid and abet those people!

-=-I think this is what
bothers me, the conflict between the reality and the ideal.-=-

It's worse in different places at different times. Any one year, some SCA
groups will be in a heyday, a Renaissance! Others will be grumpy and
decaying, and then things switch all around.

-=-With my own kids, my oldest (16) WANTS to participate with the
children. She's not really interested in the historical aspects, or
costumes or whatever, she likes to play with kids. She's happy, I'm
happy. My boys are free to participate or not at events. They don't
like events where I'm not doing the children's activities (the
activities are too structured, boring and school-y), and they don't
feel welcome with the adults.-=-

With that paragraph in isolation, without you saying what you really love to
do in the SCA, what your own involvement is, why your kids are there, it
sounds as though your whole family spends the day at the children's area.

YUCK!

It could the greatest SCA children's area in the history of SCA children's
areas (bwg), and still... it's not unschooling, is it? And it's not SCA
participation at its ideal or even passable level either.

-=-My point was (after all this length), I agree with what you said, and
it IS frustrating, and I am trying to do what I can in the system to
make things a tiny bit better.-=-

Is a tiny bit better sufficient to change things?

Is a WHOLE lot better sufficient?

If so, you're doing what you want to do.
Ifour children.

-=-Btw, I hate plastic rings too, but unfortunately my budget doesn't
allow for more period toys for prizes (for ALL the time).-=-

Thrift stores. Metal bangle-bracelets. Wooden beads. Blocks. If every
prize is a block, they end up with lots of blocks. <g>

It's hard to work with schooled kids in any way, I've found. And after all
these years unschooling, it's even harder for me to see them being callous and
crazed and to disregard so much and so many because it's not school, they
don't have to, there's not a grade, whatever all excuses they use to live badly.

When people tell children that school is their job, that school is their
life, what does that make the REST of their life? Recess. Break. School-prep
time.

It's not healthy.

Of all the learning-for-learning's-sake opportunities in the world the SCA
used to be one of the best, and still can be for people who are there to learn.


Sandra

carelia

> << BUT the reality is, MoC's exist, because, as you probably know,
> some people don't want kids hanging around >>
> Yeah, but the reality is you don't have to aid and abet those people!

Yah I know, but the kids are the ones who suffer. :( Isn't it better to
try to furnish those children with some appropriate (albeit imperfect)
activities, even if it also (by extension) "helps" those who don't like
children? I don't provide things with the intent to aid the ones who
don't like kids, it just happens to be a side-product.

> With that paragraph in isolation, without you saying what you really
> love to do in the SCA, what your own involvement is, why your kids are
> there, it
> sounds as though your whole family spends the day at the children's
> area.
> YUCK!
> It could the greatest SCA children's area in the history of SCA
> children's areas (bwg), and still... it's not unschooling, is it?
> And it's not SCA
> participation at its ideal or even passable level either.

We DO end up doing this (staying in the children's area all day) . But
you know what? There are events where there is literally NOTHING else
to do except watch combat. Or where there is only one "game" or contest
offered for all comers. That gets dull too, especially if it's not a
contest in something I am interested in (and none of us fight). At a
typical event, there are a few medieval-oid games (toss a gnome, pin
the leaf on the Green Man) and only rarely something actually REAL,
such as a chance to learn anything (do anything, have fun with
anything), that's done all at non-events (like guild meetings). If I
didn't bring things for the children, I'd be bringing things for my own
anyway, and watching them play all day. Plus my area of interest IS
children, period toys, etc. My daughter (as I mentioned) just likes
kids, she could care less that it's SCA. Same with my youngest, he just
likes to play. My older son adores boffers. My husband just became
authorized to be a boffer marshal. That's what we do. Yes, we're
re-thinking our entire participation at this point, but that's hard too
(lots of $$ and time invested, there are a few people who "get it" and
they'd be personally hurt if we left - tho they'd understand, we like
the idea of how and what it COULD be, etc.).

No, it's not good overall. It's not unschooling. It has some good
aspects, which is why we go. I'm just not really sure what to do about
it overall (that's partly why I posted ;).

> Is a tiny bit better sufficient to change things?

I don't know. :) I'd like to think it changes things a little for the
child who is participating. Maybe it's not enough to matter. The
schooling mentality can hard to break out of.

> -=-Btw, I hate plastic rings too, but unfortunately my budget doesn't
> allow for more period toys for prizes (for ALL the time).-=-
> Thrift stores. Metal bangle-bracelets. Wooden beads. Blocks. If
> every prize is a block, they end up with lots of blocks. <g>

I do a lot of these types of things too, when I can and when I have the
stuff to do it with (someone gave me the rings, but you know what? I'm
gonna go get them out of my stuff, and donate them to some other group
where they are more appropriate). I'm moving away from plastic and
per-oid in all possible areas. Sometimes I have to use cheaper (modern)
substitutes for crafts or whatever in order to accommodate a lot of
children, and tho I don't like it, it's one of the trade-offs I can
live with, if it means more children can participate (or makes it
substantially safer).

Plus, when quite a few kids show up in overalls with GameBoys, and in
modern strollers, and with huge toy plastic castles, and those pop-up
tents that look like castles, and etc., plastic rings fly under the
radar for most people. I am not saying they are good and right in this
context. What I AM saying is, even tho I'll get rid of mine, they will
still show up as prizes.

Any thoughts on those little glass counters or polished stones? ;)

> It's hard to work with schooled kids in any way, I've found. And
> after all these years unschooling, it's even harder for me to see them
> being callous and
> crazed and to disregard so much and so many because it's not school,
> they don't have to, there's not a grade, whatever all excuses they use
> to live badly.
> When people tell children that school is their job, that school is
> their life, what does that make the REST of their life? Recess.
> Break. School-prep
> time.
> It's not healthy.

I agree. Some of these kids get so weird, bragging about test scores
and such. It's sad.

> Of all the learning-for-learning's-sake opportunities in the world the
> SCA used to be one of the best, and still can be for people who are
> there to learn.

That assumes the ones who know are willing to teach and share. They
might be, but I haven't seen many who are willing to teach children, or
outside of isolated demos. The ones that are generally dumb it down to
the point of being offensive.

So Sandra (or anyone else), what do YOU think, is it worthwhile trying?
Does it matter? Would you keep doing it? If not, what would you do
instead, if anything? Etc., etc., etc. It does help clarify things when
there is a lot of input. I know you said some of this already but it's
a lot to process, having it stated in multiple ways is helpful. :)