[email protected]

In a message dated 5/20/04 4:41:49 AM, andrea@... writes:

<< Speaking from experience, I think that when you adopt an older
(non-infant)
child it would be easier if you have already been through that age with
your own biological child. >>

What about an infant child if you've never had an infant?

When someone is barren (for whatever combo of reasons, so I'm including the
husband in the equation) and adopts, that can be the best thing in the world to
that point for her, and a baby adopted instead of living in an institution or
with a family that wishes for all the world she had NOT been born is lucky.

It has occurred to me, though, that that baby will be raised without the
benefit of maternal instinct having kicked in as part of the package of birthing
and nursing.

Lots of maternal instinct was flushed down the toilet in the 1950's and
continues to be, because mothers don't nurse, and so they don't get the prolactin
and other things we don't even know about that helps nursing mothers be patient
and gentle and loving. But there are hormonal changes from being pregnant
too.

Some people seem very maternal from childhood. Maybe it's an intelligence
Gardner didn't care about that some people have even without a prolactin flood
of reproduction.

And there are some mothers who seem to receive or perceive NONE of what they
get, or maybe their endocrine system is faulty and they don't get any. It's a
new field, and our grandchildren will know much more than we know about it.
And I think some of the problems with adoption might be seen in a new light.

Another thing families have in common besides appearance and temperament is
scent. There were studies done 30 years ago or so in which children were given
sealed plastic bags to smell. Each had a t-shirt that was worn for a play
session or a day or something. One was a sibling, the others weren't. The kids
were able to identify their siblings.

I don't remember what the explanation was at the time, but I've thought of it
over the years. I think the children probably smell like the mother. They
might not be familiar with siblings by smell (though they might, and I don't
remember anything about them trying it with kids who were not biological
siblings, or who were but weren't related to the mother--I don't think it was that
deep a study, and I don't think they were considering genetics or mothers, just
proximity).

I'm not trying to make a profound point with that, just chucking out a little
more odd data.

Life's not ever going to be perfect, but if by any sharing of ideas we can
make individual lives a little better, or give people more to think about, then
it's worth sharing.

Sandra

J. Stauffer

<<<<It has occurred to me, though, that that baby will be raised without
the
> benefit of maternal instinct having kicked in as part of the package of
birthing
> and nursing.>>>>

I probably would have blown off the idea at the time, being defensive about
adoption, but now I would probably agree.

We brought Adriane home as a newborn. I felt like I was babysitting for
weeks. My mom came and stayed for a week or so which was a good thing.

I remember waking up in the middle of the night in a panic that I had
forgotten and left the baby somewhere or that she was sliding out of her
baby chair (she was too young to even use a baby chair at the time). I
would make these mad, half awake dashes through the house and come to my
senses somewhere down the hall. Heart beating wildly, adrenaline pumping.

And none of this was from good parenting....but from fear that I would do
something stupid that all other mothers knew not to do and kill the baby. I
just kept thinking how mad my mom was going to be at me. Weird.

Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:03 AM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] biological questions regarding adoption


>
> In a message dated 5/20/04 4:41:49 AM, andrea@... writes:
>
> << Speaking from experience, I think that when you adopt an older
> (non-infant)
> child it would be easier if you have already been through that age with
> your own biological child. >>
>
> What about an infant child if you've never had an infant?
>
> When someone is barren (for whatever combo of reasons, so I'm including
the
> husband in the equation) and adopts, that can be the best thing in the
world to
> that point for her, and a baby adopted instead of living in an institution
or
> with a family that wishes for all the world she had NOT been born is
lucky.
>
> It has occurred to me, though, that that baby will be raised without the
> benefit of maternal instinct having kicked in as part of the package of
birthing
> and nursing.
>
> Lots of maternal instinct was flushed down the toilet in the 1950's and
> continues to be, because mothers don't nurse, and so they don't get the
prolactin
> and other things we don't even know about that helps nursing mothers be
patient
> and gentle and loving. But there are hormonal changes from being pregnant
> too.
>
> Some people seem very maternal from childhood. Maybe it's an intelligence
> Gardner didn't care about that some people have even without a prolactin
flood
> of reproduction.
>
> And there are some mothers who seem to receive or perceive NONE of what
they
> get, or maybe their endocrine system is faulty and they don't get any.
It's a
> new field, and our grandchildren will know much more than we know about
it.
> And I think some of the problems with adoption might be seen in a new
light.
>
> Another thing families have in common besides appearance and temperament
is
> scent. There were studies done 30 years ago or so in which children were
given
> sealed plastic bags to smell. Each had a t-shirt that was worn for a play
> session or a day or something. One was a sibling, the others weren't.
The kids
> were able to identify their siblings.
>
> I don't remember what the explanation was at the time, but I've thought of
it
> over the years. I think the children probably smell like the mother.
They
> might not be familiar with siblings by smell (though they might, and I
don't
> remember anything about them trying it with kids who were not biological
> siblings, or who were but weren't related to the mother--I don't think it
was that
> deep a study, and I don't think they were considering genetics or mothers,
just
> proximity).
>
> I'm not trying to make a profound point with that, just chucking out a
little
> more odd data.
>
> Life's not ever going to be perfect, but if by any sharing of ideas we can
> make individual lives a little better, or give people more to think about,
then
> it's worth sharing.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/20/04 11:56:02 AM, jnjstau@... writes:

<< And none of this was from good parenting....but from fear that I would do

something stupid that all other mothers knew not to do and kill the baby. >>

When Kirby was an infant, I told Carol Rice, my LLL leader, that I was afraid.
She asked what I was afraid of.
I said "I'm afraid I'll forget to feed him."

She laughed and said "You won't forget to feed him."

I did! I have!
Luckily, he expressed himself early and often. <g>

Sandra

profjen1

Puuuleaze!
Every mother, hormones or not, feels like that. It's the introduction
of a stranger into your life, whether or not you birthed said
stranger--and the stranger is demanding, sleeps on a weird schedule,
and doesn't speak the language; you're sleep deprived, and adjusting,
and you know you've been charged with the care of this fragile little
being for the rest of your or its natural life (whichever shall come
first) . . .
Any woman who tells you that hormones made it so she didn't panic and
think she was going to lose the baby, is lying through her teeth.
It's not weird--it's just being a mom.
-PJ

> I probably would have blown off the idea at the time, being
defensive about> adoption, but now I would probably agree.
>
> We brought Adriane home as a newborn. I felt like I was babysitting
for> weeks. My mom came and stayed for a week or so which was a good
thing.
>
> I remember waking up in the middle of the night in a panic that I had
> forgotten and left the baby somewhere or that she was sliding out of
her> baby chair (she was too young to even use a baby chair at the
time). I> would make these mad, half awake dashes through the house
and come to my> senses somewhere down the hall. Heart beating wildly,
adrenaline pumping.
>
> And none of this was from good parenting....but from fear that I
would do> something stupid that all other mothers knew not to do and
kill the baby. I> just kept thinking how mad my mom was going to be
at me. Weird.
>
> Julie S.

Sylvia Toyama

It has occurred to me, though, that that baby will be raised without the
benefit of maternal instinct having kicked in as part of the package of birthing
and nursing.

****

Some adoptive Moms do nurse their babies successfully. I know two women who were adopted and breastfed by their adoptive Moms.

I think the smell thing would have to be that children smell like their mother. I've noticed in friend's babies that the baby definitely smells like Mom, and I've had at least one friend tell me my baby smelled like me. Of course, my sense of smell is overly sensitive, so that may be part of it for me.

It also makes sense in that we're mammals, and the way a mama in the wild knows which ones are hers is by their scent. I think sniffing our children's heads is a leftover, primitive urge, a way to re-connect and stimulate the mother hormones that impel us to protect and love our young at all costs. Unfortunately, that instinct gets lost amont the aroma of babywash, baby lotion, perfumed diapers and other products meant to make babies smell 'sweet' and sterile. Disposable diapers have the most cloying odor to them, it just overwhelms everything else. I was amazed at how much better (and truer) my youngest smelled -- how much better our home smelled. I'm convinced it was because we used cloth diapers with him. Over the generations, we've become programmed to different smells in our environment, and I think they overcome our more natural impulses.

Syl


---------------------------------
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Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year

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[email protected]

In a message dated 5/20/2004 12:04:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
> It has occurred to me, though, that that baby will be raised without the
> benefit of maternal instinct having kicked in as part of the package of
> birthing
> and nursing.


Two very dear couples I know have adopted and both mom's went with trying to
nurse their adopted baby and it seems they both are experiencing something I
think ALL mother's of adopted infants should try. I know there are
difficulties and they both have told me that it is hard but neither have ever expressed
negative feelings, one is having to supplement a lot as she has never had a
baby and her production is low but the other is down to 2 small supplements per
day. It is amazing. I know nothing about all this adoption stuff but the
topic is interesting.

Pamela


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sylvia Toyama

Or maybe it was your maternal instinct kicking -- that's a common theme in the dreams first-time pregnant women. I remember waking in a cold sweat because I'd left the baby somewhere -- only I could not remember whether my baby was a boy or girl so I had no idea how I would find him/her! I think it's to prepare us for the vigilance required in the beginning of motherhood.

Syl

******

I remember waking up in the middle of the night in a panic that I had
forgotten and left the baby somewhere or that she was sliding out of her
baby chair (she was too young to even use a baby chair at the time). I
would make these mad, half awake dashes through the house and come to my
senses somewhere down the hall. Heart beating wildly, adrenaline pumping.







---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70/year

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Funny thing, I never really noticed a different smell from our adopted kids,
but my (then) 16 yo daughter told me they have a distinctly different smell
(said privately, not in a mean way.) The only smell I ever noticed was a sweaty
one, after a long day of playing in the heat.

There's a trick some shepherds do with ewes who have had a lamb born dead.
They will skin the dead lamb and tie the skin to an orphaned lamb, then give it
to the sheep who lost the baby. Reading it on paper sounds awful, but it's
really a great thing...Ewe gets a baby, baby gets a mom to nurse and protect
it, and the shepherd doesn't have to bottle feed a lamb 4 times a day!!

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alison Broadbent

> We brought Adriane home as a newborn. I felt like I was babysitting for
> weeks.

Julie,

I think what you describe is such a common feeling among mothers. If you
speak with moms who can be honest (something that sometimes is hard to come
by), you'll find that there are so many who have felt the same. So many
don't bond in that romantic immediate way we hear about. For some it takes
weeks or months.

I remember asking our pediatrician if it was normal to feel such high
anxiety. I was just so worried something would bad would happen. When he
asked some months later, I had forgotten all about it.

Alison

[email protected]

In a message dated 05/20/2004 10:01:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
profjen1@... writes:


> Puuuleaze!
> Every mother, hormones or not, feels like that. It's the introduction
> of a stranger into your life, whether or not you birthed said
> stranger--and the stranger is demanding, sleeps on a weird schedule,
> and doesn't speak the language; you're sleep deprived, and adjusting,
> and you know you've been charged with the care of this fragile little
> being for the rest of your or its natural life (whichever shall come
> first) . . .
> Any woman who tells you that hormones made it so she didn't panic and
> think she was going to lose the baby, is lying through her teeth.
> It's not weird--it's just being a mom.
> -PJ
>


Um. This goes way too far for me.

Hormones or luck or age or whatever, I didn't panic, didn't think I
would lose my new baby, or even once feel like I was babysitting.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lenhart

> We brought Adriane home as a newborn. I felt like I was babysitting for
> weeks.

I've taken longer and longer to bond with each of my three. Love them all
dearly, but I think it takes some time to bond and, well, with more kids I
just don't have the time to sit and count their toes, KWIM?

Kelly

Jennifer Altenbach

<<<Another thing families have in common besides appearance and
temperament is
scent. There were studies done 30 years ago or so in which children
were given
sealed plastic bags to smell. Each had a t-shirt that was worn for a
play
session or a day or something. One was a sibling, the others weren't.
The kids
were able to identify their siblings.

I don't remember what the explanation was at the time, but I've thought
of it
over the years. I think the children probably smell like the
mother.>>>>

There is evidence that there is a relationship between a person's scent
and the HLA gene, which expresses a protein that is present on virtually
all cells of the body. HLA is unique to an individual, and it is
largely responsible for graft vs. host disease in organ transplants. It
is basically the protein on the cell that identifies it to your immune
system as "self". That's why transplants are rejected-the host doesn't
recognize the HLA on the transplanted organ. If HLA and scent are
related, it follows that children will smell more like their parents
than other adults, and that siblings will smell more like each other
than other children.

Here's the really neat stuff though: In one study, college age women
were asked to smell the t-shirts of various men and rate the
"attractiveness" of the smell. The women were the most attracted to the
t-shirts of the men whose HLA was the most *different* from their own.
In other words, when choosing mates, we are attracted to those who are
genetically different from ourselves. That's a good thing for the sake
of maintaining high genetic diversity in a population and for producing
offspring with good genetic diversity, which increases their ability to
adapt to their environment. This same phenomenon has also been shown
in mice.

But the really cool thing is that when women/female mice are
pregnant or nursing (or on the pill, which simulates pregnancy), their
attraction to others switches from those whose HLA is the most different
to those whose HLA is the most SIMILAR! This also makes good sense for
survival, for it's definitely in the best interest of the babies for the
mother to be attracted to their scent. The female mice also prefer the
company of their own siblings, which are the babies' aunts and uncles,
who are likely to help care for them. This is bad news for the poor
dads, however :; Luckily it switches back when the mother starts to
ovulate again.

The authors of these studies have even gone so far as to suggest that
the pill can cause relationship problems because a woman will be
attracted to a man with similar HLA while on the pill, then she'll go
off the pill and discover that she's not so attracted to him any more!

Pretty neat stuff.

Jenny


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

--- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer"

> We brought Adriane home as a newborn. I felt like I was
babysitting for
> weeks.

My son was a homebirthed, immediately nursed baby, and although it
didnt last "weeks" i felt like i was babysitting for a few days at
least. Here this little being had just come out of my body, and i
looked at him waiting for that big rush of emotion, of "this is my
baby!" and it didnt come right away. I remember after the midwives
left, the friends went home, and seamus' father went to work (!!! can
ya believe it?? left me with an hours old baby all alone!grrr), i sat
in my empty apt and thought "they are really just going to leave me
with this baby?? How will i know what to DO??" I remember the exact
moment it kicked it, maybe three days later, nursing him and watching
Oprah, and it hit me "Yes i will die for you...." Maybe it DID have
something to do with hormones kicking in, i dunno.


>I would make these mad, half awake dashes through the house and come
>to my senses somewhere down the hall. Heart beating wildly,
>adrenaline pumping.

I think this is pretty typical newborn-in-the-house stuff. I didnt
sleep well for the longest time, kept waking up to see if he was
still breathing.

I'll never forget when Seamus fell off the couch, he was only a few
days old. I couldnt believe i let that happen. A brand new baby, and
i let him fall to the floor! I called my sister (in another state, i
had no family around)who was an experienced nanny and asked her if i
caused permanent damage. She said "Did he cry when he fell?"--
yes--"Did he stop crying?"--yes---"ok he's fine." I felt like an
idiot.

How long did it take for you to feel like you knew what you were
doing with your daughter? For you to feel like she was "yours"?


Katherine

J. Stauffer

<<<<How long did it take for you to feel like you knew what you were
> doing with your daughter? For you to feel like she was "yours"?>>>>

Well, let's see, she's thirteen now.......

I still don't feel like i know what I'm doing...but i rarely panick about
her these days <grin>.

julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "queenjane555" <queenjane555@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 11:52 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: biological questions regarding adoption


> --- In [email protected], "J. Stauffer"
>
> > We brought Adriane home as a newborn. I felt like I was
> babysitting for
> > weeks.
>
> My son was a homebirthed, immediately nursed baby, and although it
> didnt last "weeks" i felt like i was babysitting for a few days at
> least. Here this little being had just come out of my body, and i
> looked at him waiting for that big rush of emotion, of "this is my
> baby!" and it didnt come right away. I remember after the midwives
> left, the friends went home, and seamus' father went to work (!!! can
> ya believe it?? left me with an hours old baby all alone!grrr), i sat
> in my empty apt and thought "they are really just going to leave me
> with this baby?? How will i know what to DO??" I remember the exact
> moment it kicked it, maybe three days later, nursing him and watching
> Oprah, and it hit me "Yes i will die for you...." Maybe it DID have
> something to do with hormones kicking in, i dunno.
>
>
> >I would make these mad, half awake dashes through the house and come
> >to my senses somewhere down the hall. Heart beating wildly,
> >adrenaline pumping.
>
> I think this is pretty typical newborn-in-the-house stuff. I didnt
> sleep well for the longest time, kept waking up to see if he was
> still breathing.
>
> I'll never forget when Seamus fell off the couch, he was only a few
> days old. I couldnt believe i let that happen. A brand new baby, and
> i let him fall to the floor! I called my sister (in another state, i
> had no family around)who was an experienced nanny and asked her if i
> caused permanent damage. She said "Did he cry when he fell?"--
> yes--"Did he stop crying?"--yes---"ok he's fine." I felt like an
> idiot.
>
> How long did it take for you to feel like you knew what you were
> doing with your daughter? For you to feel like she was "yours"?
>
>
> Katherine
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/20/04 8:01:21 PM, profjen1@... writes:

<< Puuuleaze!

Every mother, hormones or not, feels like that. >>

I don't believe this is true.

-=-Any woman who tells you that hormones made it so she didn't panic and

think she was going to lose the baby, is lying through her teeth.-=-

There are flitting thoughts and strange dreams, and then there is true doubt
and panic. And some poor moms don't get either. They're over confident or
under-thoughtful and really DO neglect the baby.

Please don't generalize your own experience or ideas to everyone in such an
insulting way. Before I had a baby I wasn't "a baby person." I didn't much
like to hold other people's babies, I wasn't too interested, I had never liked
to babysit, etc. I had no idea how I was going to be patient enough to nurse a
baby. A full set of transforming hormones came with the pregnancy and
childbirth, though, and I went from being a person who couldn't sit still for ten
minutes to one who could rock a baby for an hour without feeling anxious or
restless.

I've seen some great moms, some awkward moms and some bad moms. There are
factors that make them different. Some of those factors are biological.

This culture is based on a pack of falsehoods, but one is that humans have no
instincts. There are still professors making that statement from time to
time. Someone brought it to this list last month. It's not true. It IS true
that because people have been taught that in school, if they start to feel
something instinctive coming on, they get nervous, deny it, do the opposite thing
to prove they're "smart," and laugh at other people who are following what
they just feel they ought to do.

In moving toward natural learning, we really can't cling to a falsehood like
"no instinct." It will trip us up. And in discussing issues involving
parenting and family dynamics, to say that people who report a surprisingly good
experience are lying doesn't help anyone in any way.

Sandra

Sandra

Angela

That's an awfully broad statement. I for one, felt an immediate bond with
my baby. I also felt that I knew what was best for her instinctively. It
was an amazing experience for me esp. being a person who wasn't really
attracted to other people's babies. It all felt so right. I wasn't worried
at all.

Angela
game-enthusiast@...

PJ Wrote:

Puuuleaze!
Every mother, hormones or not, feels like that. It's the introduction
of a stranger into your life, whether or not you birthed said
stranger-PJ

Julie S. wrote:
> We brought Adriane home as a newborn. I felt like I was babysitting
for> weeks. My mom came and stayed for a week or so which was a good
thing.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn Adams

profjen1@... writes:
Any woman who tells you that hormones made it so she didn't panic and
think she was going to lose the baby, is lying through her teeth>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hormones made it so I didn't panic and think I was going to lose the baby. Really. I don't remember panics or nightmares at all. There was the occasional look at the babys chest to make sure it was still breathing but nursing blissed me out and eliminated stress. I would never have understood before I nursed but the effect it had on me was enourmous and really powerful. Hormones were a happy drug that kept me on an even keel and reasonably confident for the first little while after my baby came home. And I'm not lying through my teeth.

Sandra writes:
Please don't generalize your own experience or ideas to everyone in such an
insulting way. Before I had a baby I wasn't "a baby person." I didn't much
like to hold other people's babies, I wasn't too interested, I had never liked
to babysit, etc. I had no idea how I was going to be patient enough to nurse a
baby. A full set of transforming hormones came with the pregnancy and
childbirth, though, and I went from being a person who couldn't sit still for ten
minutes to one who could rock a baby for an hour without feeling anxious or
restless.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Same here. Babies were ugly, dull little things. And up to the very moment I first nursed Catherine I thought breastfeeding was repulsive and something that should be done in private (thankfully my mother let me know formula was not an option and I was still to listening to her too much :) ). About 2 minutes later my whole opinion (along with a rather negative view of my body) had shifted. I know women for whom hormones seemed to have little to no effect but there are many of us who were remade by them. In a very good way.

Dawn (in NS)



Dawn (in NS)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I didn't feel any immediate bond. It took three months to feel like Cameron
was even human. Mostly he just lay there and/or nursed. When he smiled for the
first time, THEN I was smitten.

But I also had no fears. I knew that he was my responsibility and that I was
his protector and food source. I never had any weird dreams about him.

The bond would probably have happened earlier with Duncan, but I was so sick
and depressed that things took longer to kick in. I *was* more relaxed with
Duncan, knowing that the attachment *would* kick in---I didn't have that luxury
with Cameron. I just wondered with Cam *why* it wasn't kicking in!

Oddly, I'm thoroughly bonded with puppies in a day or two! <g>

Maybe I really AM a bitch! <BWG>

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

> Puuuleaze!
> Every mother, hormones or not, feels like that. It's the introduction
> of a stranger into your life, whether or not you birthed said
> stranger--and the stranger is demanding, sleeps on a weird schedule,
> and doesn't speak the language; you're sleep deprived, and adjusting,
> and you know you've been charged with the care of this fragile little
> being for the rest of your or its natural life (whichever shall come
> first) . . .
> Any woman who tells you that hormones made it so she didn't panic and
> think she was going to lose the baby, is lying through her teeth.
> It's not weird--it's just being a mom.
> -PJ
=================================================

Honestly, this is so far from the truth of my experience that I felt the
need to respond even though several others have already done so.

When I was pregnant for the first time, I knew I would nurse and have the
baby room in with me at the hospital to establish good nursing, but I
*never* planned to allow the baby to sleep in dh's and my room. Marital
space is so important, yadda, yadda. Well, once I had my first baby, there
was no way she was leaving my arms, and my other babies were no different
other than the fact that my youngest was 5+ weeks premature and had to go to
the NICU, which wrenched me in ways I can't even begin to describe.

I slept with two dd's at the hospital even though I wasn't supposed to. I
slept lightly enough that when a nurse would walk in, I could open my eyes
and tell her that I wasn't sleeping, so back off. When I came home with my
first, I balled at the thought of her sleeping in the nursery I'd so
lovingly created and begged dh to let her sleep with us "for just a couple
of weeks." Dh deferred to me and that was the beginning of the family bed
for us.

There was no possible way for me to mother any differently than the way I
did--nursing on demand, carrying baby constantly, sleeping with baby--it was
hormonally-driven instinct that I didn't predict and couldn't have changed
willingly. Yes, it was scary bringing a baby home the first time, but as
long as that baby was touching me, everything was fine. It drove me nuts
that mil kept wanting to take the baby so I could "get some rest." That
didn't go over well at all, and I'm sure that was the beginning of the
tension between the two of us now. I slept well (and so did dh) because the
baby was right there to nurse without either of us having to wake up--we
could never understand people talking about sleep deprivation although our
children didn't sleep through the night until they were nearly a year old.
The schedule wasn't weird because we were together--she was a part of my
world and I was a part of her world. I didn't have to get home for feedings
or naps or anything--we were almost as symbiotic as when she was in the
womb. People call this attachment parenting, but for me it was simply
mothering. There was an immediate, overwhelming, undeniable bond between
myself and my babies, and to this day, one of my biggest regrets with my ds
is that we missed out on much of the early bonding because he was whisked
away to the NICU (which is it's very own attachment story that I won't go
into here).

--Danielle

http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

[email protected]

YES -- much closer to my experience! :) JJ

danielle.conger@... writes:


>
> There was no possible way for me to mother any differently than the way I
> did--nursing on demand, carrying baby constantly, sleeping with baby--it was
> hormonally-driven instinct that I didn't predict and couldn't have changed
> willingly. Yes, it was scary bringing a baby home the first time, but as
> long as that baby was touching me, everything was fine. It drove me nuts
> that mil kept wanting to take the baby so I could "get some rest." That
> didn't go over well at all, and I'm sure that was the beginning of the
> tension between the two of us now. I slept well (and so did dh) because the
> baby was right there to nurse without either of us having to wake up--we
> could never understand people talking about sleep deprivation although our
> children didn't sleep through the night until they were nearly a year old.
> The schedule wasn't weird because we were together--she was a part of my
> world and I was a part of her world. I didn't have to get home for feedings
> or naps or anything--we were almost as symbiotic as when she was in the
> womb. People call this attachment parenting, but for me it was simply
> mothering. There was an immediate, overwhelming, undeniable bond between
> myself and my babies,



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/21/2004 9:28:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
danielle.conger@... writes:

<< There was an immediate, overwhelming, undeniable bond between
myself and my babies, and to this day, one of my biggest regrets with my ds
is that we missed out on much of the early bonding because he was whisked
away to the NICU (which is it's very own attachment story that I won't go
into here).

--Danielle >>



With my first child I spent almost the entire pregnancy scared to death that
my baby would not like me, or I wouldn't like her and neither of us would be
able to help it.

Sounds so stupid, but my mothers famous line, was "it's not MY fault I could
never love you". So, never having been drawn to hold babies or coo over them,
I really had no interest in them.

Medically I was supposed to not be able to have children. Secretly I wasn't
too upset about it. At my preop visit for a surgery to "possibly" make it
possible to get pregnant I found out I WAS pregnant. I admit I was just sorta
going along with the program to please DH and let him think I'd done all I
could do to provide him with a family that he wanted, while secretly thinking it
wouldn't be so bad without children.

Up until the moment I pushed her out, I was still afraid that for some reason
I would be unable to love my own child. I asked my DH if I didn't love her
would he just take her away and divorce me and raise her. He thought it was
the "drugs" talking. It was the fear of being like my mother.

I gave birth, she was taken to the nursery and I was sent to recovery for a
short time, then I got to hold my baby. Taking a deep breath, I took her and
looked into her face and as she snuggled against my chest, her head turned
towards my breast and she began to try to nurse. At that moment I feel INSTANTLY
and deeply in love with her.

My experience was mostly the same for my sons. My next daughter, six weeks
early, was not the same. Possibly after reading Danielle's note I might have
made a connection. Cait was sent to the NICU right away. It took months for
me to form any bond with her. I cried because I couldn't. Nursing was very
difficult. I met her needs but didn't feel that "I never want to put her down"
feeling I'd had with the others. The only child I needed a lactation
consultant for and this was child number four. I felt like a failure. Looking back I
think if I'd had that experience with my first child, I probably wouldn't
have had five.

To tell the absolute truth I think that firm deep bonding with Cait didn't
happen until after she left school for good and we could spend hours together
just doing nothing. For the most part the other kids were already up and out of
the house by then.

I'm still embarrassed because of it, I wish it could have been different. I
wasn't neglectful in anyway to her but just was detached. I think she felt
the same way, she wanted to be fed, wrapped and put down. She didn't like being
held, she didn't like being cuddled. To this day you cannot hug her without
her saying, " I want a hug" first. She doesn't like being touched. So maybe
it was part both of us. It was several days before I even got to hold her or
touch her. Maybe those first minutes and hours are the most important time.

I know every child is different but maybe that initial separation was
damaging to both of us, very deeply.

It's still sad to me that I missed all that newborn loving and cuddling and
loving time with her.

glena

Elizabeth Hill

** I didn't feel any immediate bond. It took three months to feel like
Cameron
was even human. Mostly he just lay there and/or nursed. When he smiled
for the
first time, THEN I was smitten.**

Yeah, I didn't have a strong sense of connection to my child at first,
but then his first smile utterly captivated me and clicked that sense of
emotional connection into place. I think he was several weeks old when
he first smiled.

I had the losing-the-baby dreams when I was pregnant. So distressing!

Betsy

profjen1

SOME birth mothers feel differently with hormones.
SOME birth mothers don't.
SOME adoptive mothers feel differently because of lack of hormones.
SOME adoptive mothers don't.
There's no reason to generalize hormones to the extent that adoptive
mothers feel "less than."

That's my bottom line.

-PJ

> << Puuuleaze!
>
> Every mother, hormones or not, feels like that. >>
>
> Please don't generalize your own experience or ideas to everyone in
such an > insulting way. Before I had a baby I wasn't "a baby
person." I didn't much > like to hold other people's babies, I wasn't
too interested, I had never liked > to babysit, etc. I had no idea
how I was going to be patient enough to nurse a > baby. A full set of
transforming hormones came with the pregnancy and > childbirth,
though, and I went from being a person who couldn't sit still for ten
> minutes to one who could rock a baby for an hour without feeling
anxious or > restless.
>
> Sandra

Mark and Julie

I had the losing-the-baby dreams when I was pregnant. So distressing!

Betsy

Oh, I had dreams too. They were horrible and would stay with me for days. I
can still remember one vividly from when I was pregnant with my daughter Mia
who has just turned 5.

Julie

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/21/04 6:52:09 PM, mjsolich@... writes:

<< I had the losing-the-baby dreams when I was pregnant. >>

I dreamed I had had the baby and it was a very, very fast big hamster. Like
a little gopher. And it was running around the baseboard and of the bedroom,
and I couldn't catch it, and I was afraid it would hide where I coudln't find
it and I wouldn't be able to feed it.

I don't remember dreaming about a real or realistic baby.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/21/2004 10:27:09 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

>>I dreamed I had had the baby and it was a very, very fast big hamster.
Like
a little gopher. And it was running around the baseboard and of the bedroom,
and I couldn't catch it, and I was afraid it would hide where I coudln't find
it and I wouldn't be able to feed it.<<
***************************************
LOL!!

Before my first was born, I had a very vivid dream that bad men in black
suits with guns burst into our apartment and demanded the baby. I told them they
weren't getting it, and I'd die first. Wierd thing was, the baby started as a
baby in the dream but then turned into a swordfish...I kept her in a tank
next to the bed! I kept shielding the tank with my body. I actually woke from
that dream crying...I've never forgotten it either! I can still picture the
whole thing. I wonder if it has some deep meaning??......

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cally Brown

Blergh!! I think you should have been worried that you WOULD catch it
and that you WOULD feed it !! :-) I am picturing you in the ol'
rocking chair trying to feed that big hamster and.... no! Please, no!!
Noooooo!!!!!

Cally

SandraDodd@... wrote:

>I dreamed I had had the baby and it was a very, very fast big hamster. Like
>a little gopher. And it was running around the baseboard and of the bedroom,
>and I couldn't catch it, and I was afraid it would hide where I coudln't find
>it and I wouldn't be able to feed it.
>
>I don't remember dreaming about a real or realistic baby.
>
>Sandra
>

Erika

In response to...

"Before my first was born, I had a very vivid dream...I wonder if it
has some deep meaning??......

With my first pregnancy, I had a recurring dream that I put my baby
in the refrigerator in one of those plastic take-out boxes, in order
to keep him "fresh." If I remember correctly, he was even lying on a
little bed of lettuce.

Erika :)

J. Stauffer

<<<<There's no reason to generalize hormones to the extent that adoptive
> mothers feel "less than.">>>>

I made the original post. I never felt "less than". I felt different.
Adopting kids is different than giving birth to them. It is almost like
being part of a split personality with the birthmother .....and I think if
you are going to be a good adoptive mom, you better get used to it and learn
how to share, for lack of a better word.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "profjen1" <profjen1@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 1:31 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: biological questions regarding adoption


> SOME birth mothers feel differently with hormones.
> SOME birth mothers don't.
> SOME adoptive mothers feel differently because of lack of hormones.
> SOME adoptive mothers don't.
> There's no reason to generalize hormones to the extent that adoptive
> mothers feel "less than."
>
> That's my bottom line.
>
> -PJ
>
> > << Puuuleaze!
> >
> > Every mother, hormones or not, feels like that. >>
> >
> > Please don't generalize your own experience or ideas to everyone in
> such an > insulting way. Before I had a baby I wasn't "a baby
> person." I didn't much > like to hold other people's babies, I wasn't
> too interested, I had never liked > to babysit, etc. I had no idea
> how I was going to be patient enough to nurse a > baby. A full set of
> transforming hormones came with the pregnancy and > childbirth,
> though, and I went from being a person who couldn't sit still for ten
> > minutes to one who could rock a baby for an hour without feeling
> anxious or > restless.
> >
> > Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

SHERRY LANGEVIN

SandraDodd@... wrote:


Hi,



my 'lose the baby' version of the dream was --I'd wake up middle of the night, wildly pulling the sheets (and husband off the bed, while frantically telling him I'd lost the baby in the sheets) This happened a few times after we brought her home from where the biological mom gave birth to her. My husband said he argued with me a few times that we didn't even have the baby in bed with us, but I was so asleep I didn't wake up, or acknowledge his presence. Finally, one night he said, 'here she is; I found her--now lets go to sleep' and I never dreamt it after that.

I had the dream once with my 2nd daughter; but because of some health related problems she had, I guess I woke up too much to dream too often.

Sherry
<< I had the losing-the-baby dreams when I was pregnant. >>




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