[email protected]

In a message dated 9/7/01 2:50:24 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> We "tried" unschooling in the spring this year. My younger ones can be very
>

Sounds like your son is really interested in electronics and electrical
things. Maybe there is an outlet for him in a business that he could
volunteer at or take some community college course (talk to them about
letting him take it even though he may not be considered old enough). Find
someone as a mentor that shares his passion for electrical experiments and
find out what they did when they were young. Find a "teacher" (sorry to have
to use that word) that would be interested in working along side him with his
experiments.

The next part is actually meant to be sarcastic so please take it that way.
Maybe your husband could actually get involved with your son in his
experiements rather than just deciding unschooling is not going to work and
you having to prove it does.

What would happen if you didn't assign your 17 year old anything? If you are
a religious family where the parents are supposed to be honored surely your
children wouldn't treat you with disrespect when you suggested unschooling
them?

This may sound strange but I am grateful to God and thank God every single
day that I'm not religious and am spiritual instead. I couldn't imagine what
a burden it would be to not only be unschooling but to have the wrath of
someone who was supposed to be my equal, judging my abilities to be at home
with the kids. It must be a very suffocating way to live..... I admire you
for being able to live that way. I certainly couldn't do it.

Dawn
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dawn Falbe
Personal Development Coach
Relocational Astrologer
(520) 579-2646
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Path of Least Resistance is Inside of You
www.astrologerdawn.com
Enlightening women on how to live their Soul Purpose

"The people who get on in this world
are people who get up and look for the
circumstances they want, and,
if they can't find them, make them." - George Bernard Shaw

"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school."-George
Bernard Shaw





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Johanna SanInocencio

Dawn, thanks for replying.

> Maybe your husband could actually get involved with your son in his
> experiements rather than just deciding unschooling is not going to work
and
> you having to prove it does.

My husband wants to be more involved in the children's education, but right
now his job takes him away from the family during the week. He is only home
on weekends and sometimes every other weekend. We are currently working
towards changing that, but it may be another year before he is home every
day. He does try to get involved in their interests.

to have the wrath of
> someone who was supposed to be my equal, judging my abilities to be at
home
> with the kids. It must be a very suffocating way to live..... I admire
you
Have you ever co-owned a business? Both partners are involved in decisions.
I could do whatever I wanted and unschool anyway, he is gone all week, but I
choose to respect his point of view, they are his children also. Initally he
was very unsure of homeschooling, but has seen how the children have grown
in it. My husband is not a wrathful man and he is very supportive of the
work I do for our family.

> What would happen if you didn't assign your 17 year old anything?
She was extremely bored and depressed, ate constantly and fought with her
brothers. She told me I was neglecting her educational needs. I think if she
is requesting the work, for her that is unschooling. My problem is if her
brother chooses to practice his drums all day and her other brother builds
Lego spaceships and movie scenes, they are goofing off and not learning
anything. I disagree.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!

Heidi

okay, three.

1) what would you do in my shoes

2) How'd I do? (trying out my new compassionate parenting skills)

3) when a child seems naturally to not do well in social settings,
e.g. coming across as rude, what should a mom do?

Scenario 1: We went to a friend's son's graduation last night. He has
been homeschooled and attended part time at the high school, and last
night he had a ceremony honoring him as he prepares to go to college.

OUr first stop when we got to town was their house, where we had
about a half hour before heading over to the church where the
graduation was to be. Normally, their girl and our two younger put a
video in when we're visiting them, but this time, the TV was going to
remain off. With only a half hour or less, and with things like a
scooter and a pogo stick and bikes, there was plenty to do while my
friend and I said hello...etc.

Robby (my 10yr old) tried out the pogo stick, and then came inside.
My girlfriend greeted him "Hi Robby. Nice to see you." and Robby sort
of shrugged and mumbled something. Didn't even glance in my friend's
direction, let alone make eye contact or smile at her. And then he
went back outside. It wasn't a busy-kid-dashing-in-and-dashing-out
kind of thing, more like a big-deal-rolling-his-eyes kind of
attitude.

When I got a chance alone with him, I said "I think you could have
done better when L. said hello to you. Was there something wrong?"
and he told me he was BORED. So I said being bored isn't an excuse to
be rude and asked him to demonstrate a more polite reply. He perked
up, smiled at me and did so "Hi! It's nice to see you, too". And I
asked him to be THAT polite, the next time an opportunity presented
itself. And he said "Okay."

Scenario 2: While we were waiting to leave for the graduation, my
friend's 11 year old girl said something complimentary to him (Nice
haircut) and he completely ignored her. It was like "Hi Robby." "Hi
C." "Nice haircut" and he turned his back. This not from spite or
anything. They hadn't argued and he wasn't turning a cold shoulder.
He just didn't see the need to respond. So I said "What dyou say,
Rob?" and he turned, looked at his friend (they've known each other
since birth) and said "Thanks" and then went outside.

I had been proactive, telling them all beforehand, "When you see (her
son) say hi and congratulations." and they managed to do that, but
didn't get a chance until after things were over and we were mingling
at the reception. And, after we left, I told them they did well.
There was some sitting and listening to speechifying, and a really
cool video vignette of his life, and presentation of the diplomas,
and they did well through that. But I also said "We're going to have
to find some social things to get to, for you guys to practice
manners." or some such.

any advice? anything you would do differently?

HeidiC

bobalinga

--- In [email protected], "Heidi"
<bunsofaluminum60@h...> wrote:

> at the reception. And, after we left, I told them they did well.
> There was some sitting and listening to speechifying, and a really
> cool video vignette of his life, and presentation of the diplomas,
> and they did well through that. But I also said "We're going to
have
> to find some social things to get to, for you guys to practice
> manners." or some such.
>
> any advice? anything you would do differently?
>
> HeidiC

I think I would just model what I think of as 'good manners'. I have
a problem with 'forced manners' and find them meaningless.
Maybe the child had a reason he didn't wish to respond to his friend
or maybe he felt the comment didn't need a response.
I tend to explain what other people expect in certain situations
like 'your granny has this idea that children should ask how she is.
It makes he happy and feel special if you do.' I don't then force
them to do so.
This does mean however that some people to whom appearnaces are
everything find my kids rude or too shy or standoffish but when my
kids do greet someone or say thankyou or go up to someone and hug
them unexpectadly then its 100% genuine.
The 11 and 9yo tend to be reasonably 'polite' although neither of
them puts up with bad behaviour from adults (which is why my mum
ain't speaking to me...) but the 8 yo is completely honest in his
feelings which upsets some people and may cause outsiders to think he
is 'rude'.
I have explained to him what other people would like and the possible
problems that can be caused but then I leave it up to him. Luckily
for me real friends don't take it personally if he ignores them or
snaps sometimes. On other occasions he hugs them and tells them they
are great.

It also helps that I do my utmost to avoid boring events where kids
will misbehave. Part of taking children seriously is to find out
their preferences about events before we go and they are never *made*
to go. I have enough horrible memories from my own childhood about
that!

Shyrley who still hasn't got email :-(

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/15/03 6:16:48 AM, bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

<< But I also said "We're going to have

to find some social things to get to, for you guys to practice

manners." or some such.


any advice? anything you would do differently?

>>

I think I just wouldn't have said that last thing.
Or I might've, but I'd feel REALLY bad right afterward. <g>

About ignoring people who talk to them, social situations won't help that. I
think just reminders and modelling and finding examples of people being cold
or thoughtless and saying "I bet that hurt [the other guy's] feelings," or
when you get a chance to see something in a story or movie or a stranger in
public, point it out?

Holly had an old friend over for 25 hours. They hadn't seen each other for a
long time, and then the other girl invited Holly to a sleepover birthday
party a week ago. She kinda invited herself over here the next weekend (Friday).
Though they did have quite a bit of fun, there were irritations, and Holly's
not interested in maintaining the friendship at that level. It did serve as
reminders of some ways Holly doesn't want to be. She stayed gracious to the
end, even leaving a picnic/birthday gathering after two and hours that she
really did NOT want to leave, but the other girl was to be picked up at our house.


Holly was exhausted, though. Rather than talk it all through in one big
lump, I'll stretch it over the next week or two to debrief her and let her express
and clarify what all happened and what she'll do next time.

I don't think she needs another sleepover to practice, nor does she need to
invite others over she hasn't seen for a long time. It's at a philosophical
level, and at this point has to do with her considering her social obligations,
her personal boundaries, and how she can maintain the friendship at a slower
speed and greater distance without hurting feelings.

When we're going to go somewhere, I remind kids of the general etiquette
expected, explain special circumstances if I know of any, and then let it play out
and we review on the way home. So far so good, and the most frequent
clueless guy has been Marty (which made me worry some last October when he was at a
homeschooling conference while I was in the hospital and not there to remind
him to be quiet sometimes, and to slow down and see who else needs to shine. (I
heard he did fine without coaching, but maybe they just SAID that... <g>)

Sandra

[email protected]

HeidiC,

Is Rob always like this or was this off kilter for him? Not that it makes a
huge difference though, I was just wondering. Some people are just not social.
It is not always about being rude with the intent to be rude.

One of my best friends on this planet is like that. People always ask why she
is rude and never talks at gatherings. The funny thing is she's not ever
actually rude. She simply doesn't speak much, only says hello when someone else
says it first and sometimes she doesn't respond with anything but a slight, make
that a very slight grin. It all comes down to shyness for her. Not the hide
in a room kind of shy, just the "I don't know them yet, so I stay quiet until I
do." However, this even occurs with people she has known for years.
Especially if I'm not around (no pat on the back though she just tells me if I don't
attend she won't have anyone to talk to). I've had mutual friends call and say
she never spoke at whatever they attended, or that she didn't talk until I got
there. I'm a yacker, so since I'm always saying something and I include her in
it, she has to respond. It also elivates her nervousness, at least that's
what she says. She also is well aware that people find her so stand offish, but
it's just a part of her personality and frankly I get irritated when people
want to debate it. She is who she is. And in my book, as long as she isn't mean
or hateful, then why take offense? But the world has become so victimized and
for some reason it's easier to stay in that state of mind then to accept
responsibility for one's own feelings and actions. You can only be offended if you
choose to take offense, just like only being manipulated, if you choose to be
so.

And then what if Rob was just a little grumpy that day. I mean he is human
and don't we all have bad days? Those days where nothing really has happened to
set you off, but you just feel kind of yuck. I think he should have the
freedom to feel yucky just as well as happy. It seems like he at least responding in
kind when you reminded him.

I think overall you handled it well, but I also think you are putting too
much weight on it. And if it ends up being a part of his true personailty, then
would it be right to try to change that about him? His comfort zone in social
situations may never mirror your own, but isn't it better for him if you can
accept the difference than to try to alter it?

Just my thoughts,

Rhonda

P.S. HeidiC, I just love how open you are to question your own actions and be
so willing to trust this list with whatever you may get in response. You are
simply awesome and your kids are lucky to have a mom so eager to change her
own parenting skills for their sakes, if she finds herself questioning her
responses.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tammy Thompson

>>>>>>>>1) what would you do in my shoes/3) when a child seems naturally to
not do well in social settings,
e.g. coming across as rude, what should a mom do?
<<<<<<<<<<

I don't know Robby, so this may not match for him. I think just showing
politeness in front of him and especially WITH him would demonstrate it for
him. I think alot of people like to feel their actions are appreciated. I
think if a kid feels important, they may treat others as important.

I believe pointing out an unintentional rude action every time it happens
could possibly just make it worse for any kid and embarrassed or even
resentful. I also wouldn't tell the kids they need work on their manners.
I think that would make me feel like a schmuck to be told that. I'm not
sure that would even help as much as the parents modeling the behavior.
From what I've seen, kids act just like their parents more than people
realize (for me to). I'm still working on it.

Now, some kids just don't like to talk. My 10yo is this way. She's a much
stronger introvert than I am. :) She likes people and will visit, but not
more than a day, if she can help it. She's frequently irritated with her
siblings. I gave her a room of her own. She is the only one in the house
with a room all to herself. It has helped alot. She can go there when she
wants to be left alone, although she almost never wants to sleep in there..
she'd rather sleep on the couch or with her sister.

>>>>>>>2) How'd I do? (trying out my new compassionate parenting
skills)<<<<<<<

I think you did well. Compare it to what you would have done a year ago,
you might be quite relieved at how far you've all come. That's what I do
when I get guilt creeping up on me.

Thanks for your posts, Heidi, your questions have caused me to question
myself, which has been enlightening.
Tammy






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/15/03 10:12:29 AM, RJHill241@... writes:

<< And if it ends up being a part of his true personailty, then
would it be right to try to change that about him? His comfort zone in social
situations may never mirror your own, but isn't it better for him if you can
accept the difference than to try to alter it? >>

It's part of my true personality that I forget to write in check ledgers and
I lose receipts.
Is it right for people to try to change that about me?

Yes, if I have a joint checking account with someone else!

And in social terms, family members are sharing a social account, and if I
had a family member (this is hypothetical and goes beyond the original question,
so nobody freak out) who was very anti-social or just cold socially and who
had no interest in changing, I wouldn't take him to things like graduations or
weddings unless I stayed very close by him. When he's grown and gets places
on his own speed (or doesn't) and wasn't on my invitation, he can be the way
he wants to (and keep track of his own checkbook or not, too).

There are some things to accept, and some things to try to alter, at least at
the advisement and discussion level.

Some kid wipes boogers on the wall at my house once in a while. It's not one
of the kids who lives here, because it never happens when there's nobody here
but us. It happens when there are big groups, and it's some kid who's been
coming for years. One of six or seven. I'm not sure I WANT to know who, but I
wish his mom had discovered it and altered it out of his system years ago.
That is one of many examples I could name which are NOT in the realm of things
I think parents should just accept.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/15/03 12:27:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

> There are some things to accept, and some things to try to alter, at least
> at
> the advisement and discussion level.
>

Sandra,

I agree wholeheartedly. My point to Heidi was that I thought she did an
excellent job of bringing Robby's attention to what she'd expected of him in those
settings, yet he still needed prompting even thereafter. I'm by no means meant
that she should just toss all hope out the window and expect that Robby will
never live up to her expectations of what manners she would like to see him
utilize. But I do think, aside from the possibility that Robby was just having a
bad day, that there may also be the possibility that Robby's personality
simply does not jive with hers in social settings.

These are all hypotheticals and what ifs. But overall I find no harm in Heidi
reminding Robby how to be polite, but if is something that is a constant,
then I too, would perhaps stop bringing him into situations that he seems to not
be comfortably social in. I'd also ask though, is it his comfort or mine I was
worried about.

Rhonda - also a non-ledger keeping individual, who happens to be on a joint
account.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/15/2003 3:27:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> Some kid wipes boogers on the wall at my house once in a while. It's not
> one
> of the kids who lives here, because it never happens when there's nobody
> here
> but us. It happens when there are big groups, and it's some kid who's been
> coming for years. One of six or seven. I'm not sure I WANT to know who,
> but I
> wish his mom had discovered it and altered it out of his system years ago.
>
> That is one of many examples I could name which are NOT in the realm of
> things
> I think parents should just accept.

Gee, Sandra. Thanks so much for the visual. :-P~~~~~ I, too, wish that his
mom had put an early end to this behavior!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/15/03 6:16:48 AM, bunsofaluminum60@h... writes:
>
> << But I also said "We're going to have
>
> to find some social things to get to, for you guys to practice
>
> manners." or some such.
>
>
> any advice? anything you would do differently?
>
> >>
>
> I think I just wouldn't have said that last thing.
> Or I might've, but I'd feel REALLY bad right afterward. <g>

Well, not RIGHT afterward, but by this morning I was saying "Sheesh,
rude!"


> About ignoring people who talk to them, social situations won't
help that. I
> think just reminders and modelling and finding examples of people
being cold
> or thoughtless and saying "I bet that hurt [the other guy's]
feelings," or
> when you get a chance to see something in a story or movie or a
stranger in
> public, point it out?

That's a good idea, too. I also am thinking, a role-playing Etiquette
Afternoon or some such, with different pretend scenarios where
different polite behavior would be appropriate, throwing plenty of
silly "manners" in there, like Pinkies UP! and Stirring Our Tea
Without Dinging The Cup, and just having a fun time with it.




> Holly was exhausted, though. Rather than talk it all through in
one big
> lump, I'll stretch it over the next week or two to debrief her and
let her express
> and clarify what all happened and what she'll do next time.

Good. Stretching it over a longer period of time, rather than jumping
in feet first and yakking about everything all at once.




When we're going to go somewhere, I remind kids of the general
etiquette
> expected, explain special circumstances if I know of any,

Yeah! One of the things I did well this time, IMO, was to be
proactive, and explain the situation we were going into (more formal
than usual) and reminded them to shake hands and smile at the
graduate, congratulate him, etc. before we got out of the car.

I gotta say, too, before starting to think "How can I be the most
compassionate in my parenting?" I probably wouldn't have even noticed
behavior that was this "slightly" off. Would've just sat down to
visit w/my girlfriend and ignored the kids. Being more attentive to
the things they want to do with their time, day to day, has meant
more attentiveness to everything, and having this "Compassionate
Parenting" in the back of my mind has changed how I respond when they
do goof.

thanks again! I tap the experience here and gain greatly from it!

HeidiC

coyote's corner

I had a kid come to my house that wiped his shit on my walls. He didn't want his mom to work ( I was taking care of him) so he smeared shit in the house.
I took care of him less than a week -
He must be in his mid thirties by now.....I wonder what he does when he has to go somewhere he doesn't want to be..."Do you really want me to go to great uncle Jasper's funeral??"

Janis

----- Original Message -----
From: kbcdlovejo@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Two Questions


In a message dated 6/15/2003 3:27:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> Some kid wipes boogers on the wall at my house once in a while. It's not
> one
> of the kids who lives here, because it never happens when there's nobody
> here
> but us. It happens when there are big groups, and it's some kid who's been
> coming for years. One of six or seven. I'm not sure I WANT to know who,
> but I
> wish his mom had discovered it and altered it out of his system years ago.
>
> That is one of many examples I could name which are NOT in the realm of
> things
> I think parents should just accept.

Gee, Sandra. Thanks so much for the visual. :-P~~~~~ I, too, wish that his
mom had put an early end to this behavior!

~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Heidi

--- In [email protected], RJHill241@a... wrote:
> HeidiC,
>
> Is Rob always like this or was this off kilter for him? Not that it
makes a
> huge difference though, I was just wondering. Some people are just
not social.
> It is not always about being rude with the intent to be rude.

Oh, I don't think he intended to be rude, though he was cranky when
we got there, because the TV was to remain off. He isn't shy, per se.
Not super outgoing, but friendly enough with other kids. Just
clueless. He does tend to be like this. I've seen him waltz into my
mom's house and not say hello as he beelines it to either the kitchen
or the TV...even failing to say hi in reply when someone greets him.

My hubby isn't the greatest social interacter in the world, either.
Like "You mean, when someone says Hi you say Hi back? Really?" that
IS how he is. In fact, on his b-day, we had a dinner for him at my
folks' house, and as food was getting passed around the table, I
said "well, this is Jim's b-day. Happy Birthday, honey" and everyone
said happy birthday to him, and he sort of smirk/grinned and kept
dishing his food and never said nothin...that is how clueless he can
be. And maybe Rob just takes after his dad a bit. Which is okay. If
he's a wallflower, so be it. I'm not going to force him to be Mr.
Social.

BUT!!! my hubby's ... social backwardness...has set him back as an
adult. I would say, in at least one case, he failed to get a job
based on this cluelessness at an interview. (I know about it, becaues
a good friend of mine works where he was interviewing, and told me
what the interviewer said about it, trying to help out) I've wondered
if he makes a poor first impression, leaving him out of some things
that would make a more fulfilling, happier life for him. I'd much
rather my kids don't follow in those footsteps QUITE exactly!


> One of my best friends on this planet is like that. People always
ask why she
> is rude and never talks at gatherings. The funny thing is she's not
ever
> actually rude. She simply doesn't speak much, only says hello when
someone else
> says it first and sometimes she doesn't respond with anything but a
slight, make
> that a very slight grin. It all comes down to shyness for her. Not
the hide
> in a room kind of shy, just the "I don't know them yet, so I stay
quiet until I
> do."

There's someone at our church like that, too. Once you get to know
her, she's a HOOT! but she takes some time to warm up, and is even
hesitant with friends, to be open. But she is generally polite,
answering when spoken to and the like.

<snip>

She is who she is. And in my book, as long as she isn't mean
> or hateful, then why take offense? But the world has become so
victimized and
> for some reason it's easier to stay in that state of mind then to
accept
> responsibility for one's own feelings and actions. You can only be
offended if you
> choose to take offense, just like only being manipulated, if you
choose to be
> so.


I hear ya there! This happens sometimes w/my hubby and another
friend. She gets irritated about some of his JUST NATURAL aloofness.
And I've had to remind her more than once "This is just how he is. If
it doesn't tick ME off, why is it bugging YOU so much?" I mean it
isn't like he's being rude on purpose. He is JUST CLUELESS, and I'm
not going to harp on him about it. If he were going to get over this
tendency, it should have happened when he was a kid, not as a grown
man whose wife wants him to do differently.

>
> And then what if Rob was just a little grumpy that day. I mean he
is human
> and don't we all have bad days? Those days where nothing really has
happened to
> set you off, but you just feel kind of yuck. I think he should have
the
> freedom to feel yucky just as well as happy. It seems like he at
least responding in
> kind when you reminded him.

Yeah, he did well. With the haircut example, it was like this little
monologue. I could see it in his face: (Oh. I forgot that
acknowledging a compliment is proper) "Thanks"

> I think overall you handled it well, but I also think you are
putting too
> much weight on it. And if it ends up being a part of his true
personailty, then
> would it be right to try to change that about him?

No more than it would be right for me to try and change my hubby.

His comfort zone in social
> situations may never mirror your own, but isn't it better for him
if you can
> accept the difference than to try to alter it?

yeah. I'm thinking, with some Faux Pas Practice and a proactive
reminder about the social situations and what manners are appropriate
as they come up, he may remain a quiet type but capable of dredging
up normal, polite responses when necessary.

> Just my thoughts,
>
> Rhonda
>
> P.S. HeidiC, I just love how open you are to question your own
actions and be
> so willing to trust this list with whatever you may get in
response. You are
> simply awesome and your kids are lucky to have a mom so eager to
change her
> own parenting skills for their sakes, if she finds herself
questioning her
> responses.

thanks, Rhonda. I'm so much more aware than I used to be. "Old-time"
parenting practices are SO oriented towards misbehavior. I'm happy to
be on the look-out for their Goodness, and also happy to keep
compassion in the front of my mind, when they mess up. Like the
slurpee spill someone described. How excellent! to treat that with
kindness and patience.

anyways thanks for the advice and the kind words!

HeidiC

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/15/2003 4:11:36 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
bunsofaluminum60@... writes:

> My hubby isn't the greatest social interacter in the world, either.
> Like "You mean, when someone says Hi you say Hi back? Really?" .... And
> maybe Rob just takes after his dad a bit.

It could easily be genetic. Still, it would make their lives better if you
could just convince them to say hello and bye to the host/ess and to say
"thanks" a lot.

There's a range of possibilities between punishing behaviors you don't like
and ignoring easily-amended glitches. It doesn't have to be (and shouldn't be)
all or nothing.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tim and Maureen

Sounds like he and ds need to take the Myers Briggs test - it usually points to how introverted a person is. Extremely introverted people can still find jobs that fit them - and Mom can learn about her ds's view of things.

My (hopefully helpful) thots
Tim T
----- Original Message -----
From: Heidi
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 2:41 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Two Questions


--- In [email protected], RJHill241@a... wrote:
> HeidiC,
>
> Is Rob always like this or was this off kilter for him? Not that it
makes a
> huge difference though, I was just wondering. Some people are just
not social.
> It is not always about being rude with the intent to be rude.

Oh, I don't think he intended to be rude, though he was cranky when
we got there, because the TV was to remain off. He isn't shy, per se.
Not super outgoing, but friendly enough with other kids. Just
clueless. He does tend to be like this. I've seen him waltz into my
mom's house and not say hello as he beelines it to either the kitchen
or the TV...even failing to say hi in reply when someone greets him.

My hubby isn't the greatest social interacter in the world, either.
Like "You mean, when someone says Hi you say Hi back? Really?" that
IS how he is. In fact, on his b-day, we had a dinner for him at my
folks' house, and as food was getting passed around the table, I
said "well, this is Jim's b-day. Happy Birthday, honey" and everyone
said happy birthday to him, and he sort of smirk/grinned and kept
dishing his food and never said nothin...that is how clueless he can
be. And maybe Rob just takes after his dad a bit. Which is okay. If
he's a wallflower, so be it. I'm not going to force him to be Mr.
Social.

BUT!!! my hubby's ... social backwardness...has set him back as an
adult. I would say, in at least one case, he failed to get a job
based on this cluelessness at an interview. (I know about it, becaues
a good friend of mine works where he was interviewing, and told me
what the interviewer said about it, trying to help out) I've wondered
if he makes a poor first impression, leaving him out of some things
that would make a more fulfilling, happier life for him. I'd much
rather my kids don't follow in those footsteps QUITE exactly!


> One of my best friends on this planet is like that. People always
ask why she
> is rude and never talks at gatherings. The funny thing is she's not
ever
> actually rude. She simply doesn't speak much, only says hello when
someone else
> says it first and sometimes she doesn't respond with anything but a
slight, make
> that a very slight grin. It all comes down to shyness for her. Not
the hide
> in a room kind of shy, just the "I don't know them yet, so I stay
quiet until I
> do."

There's someone at our church like that, too. Once you get to know
her, she's a HOOT! but she takes some time to warm up, and is even
hesitant with friends, to be open. But she is generally polite,
answering when spoken to and the like.

<snip>

She is who she is. And in my book, as long as she isn't mean
> or hateful, then why take offense? But the world has become so
victimized and
> for some reason it's easier to stay in that state of mind then to
accept
> responsibility for one's own feelings and actions. You can only be
offended if you
> choose to take offense, just like only being manipulated, if you
choose to be
> so.


I hear ya there! This happens sometimes w/my hubby and another
friend. She gets irritated about some of his JUST NATURAL aloofness.
And I've had to remind her more than once "This is just how he is. If
it doesn't tick ME off, why is it bugging YOU so much?" I mean it
isn't like he's being rude on purpose. He is JUST CLUELESS, and I'm
not going to harp on him about it. If he were going to get over this
tendency, it should have happened when he was a kid, not as a grown
man whose wife wants him to do differently.

>
> And then what if Rob was just a little grumpy that day. I mean he
is human
> and don't we all have bad days? Those days where nothing really has
happened to
> set you off, but you just feel kind of yuck. I think he should have
the
> freedom to feel yucky just as well as happy. It seems like he at
least responding in
> kind when you reminded him.

Yeah, he did well. With the haircut example, it was like this little
monologue. I could see it in his face: (Oh. I forgot that
acknowledging a compliment is proper) "Thanks"

> I think overall you handled it well, but I also think you are
putting too
> much weight on it. And if it ends up being a part of his true
personailty, then
> would it be right to try to change that about him?

No more than it would be right for me to try and change my hubby.

His comfort zone in social
> situations may never mirror your own, but isn't it better for him
if you can
> accept the difference than to try to alter it?

yeah. I'm thinking, with some Faux Pas Practice and a proactive
reminder about the social situations and what manners are appropriate
as they come up, he may remain a quiet type but capable of dredging
up normal, polite responses when necessary.

> Just my thoughts,
>
> Rhonda
>
> P.S. HeidiC, I just love how open you are to question your own
actions and be
> so willing to trust this list with whatever you may get in
response. You are
> simply awesome and your kids are lucky to have a mom so eager to
change her
> own parenting skills for their sakes, if she finds herself
questioning her
> responses.

thanks, Rhonda. I'm so much more aware than I used to be. "Old-time"
parenting practices are SO oriented towards misbehavior. I'm happy to
be on the look-out for their Goodness, and also happy to keep
compassion in the front of my mind, when they mess up. Like the
slurpee spill someone described. How excellent! to treat that with
kindness and patience.

anyways thanks for the advice and the kind words!

HeidiC


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deborah Lewis

I'm way behind and maybe you've read some good answers already.

I think ten is young and not every child develops that awareness of
others feelings at a young age.
You can model polite responses to chit chat and compliments and he'll
eventually get it.

I used to thank the person on Dylan's behalf. I would say "thank you
for sharing that" or "that was nice of you to say you like his hair,
thank you". If Dylan didn't remember to say thank you, then the
person still had acknowledgement and if he did then they were thanked
twice.

Dylan is eleven and very polite. More polite than many of his friends
who still endure some coaching from their moms and dads --"what do you
say???"--

"Please" and "thank you" at home from mom and dad, (and patience <g>)
will go a long way.

Deb L

Heidi

Might not be a bad idea. I took the test when it was posted here
recently, and, like Sandra, can't even remember what my type was. I
know it started with an I, because it always does for me. But like
Sandra, it changes for me every time I take it. My hubby would most
likely be I something. Could be fun. eh.

HeidiC


--- In [email protected], Tim and Maureen
<tmthomas@s...> wrote:
> Sounds like he and ds need to take the Myers Briggs test - it
usually points to how introverted a person is. Extremely introverted
people can still find jobs that fit them - and Mom can learn about
her ds's view of things.
>
> My (hopefully helpful) thots
> Tim T

Heidi

> I used to thank the person on Dylan's behalf. I would say "thank
you
> for sharing that" or "that was nice of you to say you like his
hair,
> thank you". If Dylan didn't remember to say thank you, then the
> person still had acknowledgement and if he did then they were
thanked
> twice.

This, I like! Modeling while simultaneously returning graciousness to
the complimenter.

HeidiC

Andrea

At 04:21 PM 6/15/03 -0700, Tim wrote:
>Extremely introverted people can still find jobs that fit them

And can learn behaviours that are in keeping with others' expectations of
social interactions. I am not too bad at this but there are some things I
had to learn to do that do not come naturally to me, like looking the other
person in the eye when meeting and addressing. Of course, eating with
utensils did not come naturally when I was two but I learned it and now
enjoy using fork and spoon.

Donna Andrea

Andrea

At 05:39 PM 6/15/03 -0600, Deb L wrote:
>I used to thank the person on Dylan's behalf. I would say "thank you
>for sharing that" or "that was nice of you to say you like his hair,
>thank you". If Dylan didn't remember to say thank you, then the
>person still had acknowledgement and if he did then they were thanked
>twice.

I do this, too, and didn't realize it fully until I read Deb's post. It
just seems natural to do this for a shy or young child, something I did
before they could talk and continue to do until they can do it for
themselves. I guess this is just one of many things we do when being
mindful of our children's stages of development regardless of their age.

Donna Andrea

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/15/2003 5:21:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
jana@... writes:

> I had a kid come to my house that wiped his shit on my walls. He didn't
> want his mom to work ( I was taking care of him) so he smeared shit in the
> house.
> I took care of him less than a week -
> He must be in his mid thirties by now.....

This can actually be a sign of sexual abuse. In our foster care training
they said that "smearing" or wiping poop on walls, floors, etc, is a red flag for
molestation. Not saying this happened to the boy you took care of, but just
wanted to pass that along for anyone else who has encountered this.

Nancy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mary

From: <SandraDodd@...>

<< any advice? anything you would do differently? >>


I found with Joseph and Sierra., once in awhile a situation would come up
when I would think a thank you would be nice from them and they didn't say
it. It bothered me and I would do the whole "say thank you" thing and they
would say it then. I started to really think about it and why they didn't do
it and why it bothered me. My kids weren't really being rude at all. From
what I could see, they were just being kids and had no clue most of the time
that someone would be "expecting" a thank you or just very involved in the
moment or just having their brain be somewhere else. So I figured what's the
harm really? They're still kids and Tara certainly is very polite and where
did she get it from? Us and watching.

So now I just leave it to me doing what I feel is proper and sometimes I
just offer thank you's for them. Sierra can be very shy at times and
sometimes a thank you is just too much for her. I won't push that and I
won't "make them" offer politeness without sincerity. I know they will get
it eventually.

And if there are times when I think maybe with a friend something would have
been nice other than what was done, I'll talk to them about it. Reminding
them how when they do something for each other, they like to be thanked for
it and wouldn't it make someone else feel nice too? We do a lot of talking
here about our feelings with each other and then relating that to other
people as well. Asking how would that make you feel or what would be nice
for you to do??? They even like this kind of talking to, it gives them
another outlook on things and they like coming up with different ways or
wondering how other people would feel.

Mary B

bobalinga

:
> At 04:21 PM 6/15/03 -0700, Tim wrote:
> >Extremely introverted people can still find jobs that fit them
>

Yup. DH is extremely introverted and now he has a job as a research
scientist where all he has to do is equations all day. He rarerly
speaks to his co-workers and is happy with just maths for company.

Shyrley

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/15/03 7:51:50 PM, andrea@... writes:

<< >I used to thank the person on Dylan's behalf. >>

When Kirby was three, four, five, he would kinda have a fit when we picked
him up from a friend's house, and wouldn't want to leave, so I got into a
routine of saying, "I think what Kirby means is he was having a really wonderful
time and would love to come again soon!" Something to that effect made him and
them have a parting thought not of him as a crazed tantrum-boy (because he
hadn't been until time to go) but as someone who liked them so much he didn't want
to go home.

Weird, but worked.

He still doesn't like for things to end or change. It's just a part of him.
But he's learned himself to say "I hope we do this again," and other similar
self-comfort and other-comforting things.

Sandra

[email protected]

SandraDodd@... writes:

<< Is it right for people to try to change that about me?

Yes, if I have a joint checking account with someone else! >>

No one has the "right" to change someone else. Sure, they have the
right to say, "hey, this affects me, I'm letting you know that this bothers me,"
but, besides that, we're getting dangerously close to co-dependent behavior.
Probably just the wording, here, but, my alarm bells went off.

This does remind me of a situation with my hubby. He tended to keep the
receipts for the week in his wallet, and not give it to me to enter into the money
software until *after* I paid bills. Meant grocery shopping that week was
tough. After a few times of having no ham for his lunch, and finding out why,
he started remembering to enter the transactions. I didn't have to change
him, even tho you could argue I had the right. Ultimately, it just made sense
to him to remember.

<<And in social terms, family members are sharing a social account, and if I
had a family member>>

Again, this is a slippery slope. This can easily turn into enmeshed
boundaries if you're not careful. Children are individuals, even as part of the
"entity of family" ( which I personally don't deem to be THAT important, in and of
itself). Anyway, I think it is much easier for a child to explore their own
way of interacting with the world without worrying about how their affecting
some "familial social account balance".


<<There are some things to accept, and some things to try to alter, at least
at
the advisement and discussion level. >>

The child will decide if it's something they want to change, or not. We
can't forget that it's ultimately up to them. Inform them of our perspective,
yes, attempt to change, is dicey, because whose standards will we be using, our
own? I think a parent has to make that clear, then. The point is to help them
develop their own standards, not to coerce them to adopt our own.

Being nitpicky ( or is that booger picky?....ew!)

~Aimee

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/16/03 2:22:09 PM, AimeeL73@... writes:

<< << Is it right for people to try to change that about me?

Yes, if I have a joint checking account with someone else! >>

<<No one has the "right" to change someone else. >>

The question was "is it right," not "Does a person have the 'right'."

If I found out at the age of 40 that I had been doing something really
irritating that would have been easy to change if I'd only known, it would have been
right (better, and not evil) if someone who loved me had told me sooner that
with a little tweak I could be easier to live with. Especially if they're the
people trying to live with me.

There is a lot of space between controlling someone's ever move and
absolutely resolving never to try to even influence the person in the least.

Sandra

[email protected]

SandraDodd@... writes:

<< There is a lot of space between controlling someone's ever move and
absolutely resolving never to try to even influence the person in the least.

Sandra >>

That reminds me of that religion, what is it, Jainism? Where harming any
living thing is seen as a sin?

*Picturing us with masks and brooms to protect the microorganisms and bugs*
lol

~Aimee

[email protected]

Hello all, I have been quiet for awhile, busy Summer in progress.

Anyway, question #1: We have begun reading the His Dark Materials Trilogy by
Philip Pullman and I am curious if anyone can explain "daemon familiar"?

Question #2: Does anyone know if there is a site that can help me locate
homeschool/unschool communities? I mean, we are looking at moving sometime and
we are looking at Delaware to be near relatives but is there any way to find
out if there are neighborhoods that are just "known" to have lots of them?
Delaware is not a set place but I'd like to find a place that is just heavily
populated with like-minded parents-like a "utopian neighborhood" maybe? :o)

Thanks all
Pamela


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]