Jen and Scott Lynch

On Feb 15, 2006, at 7:51 PM, Name Location Get It? wrote:
> So we are at a new cross road. She is starting to want to do things
> with no supervision that she is not capable of mastering. Previously
> the things she pushed me to do that I wasn't sure she was ready for
> she accomplished nicely.
>
> The former continues to prove itself frustrating for the both of us
> but I don't know how to support her without having her think I just
> want to control things and situations.
>
> It's like she is out ahead of herself just a little and can't get back
> into sync. And I am on the outside looking in.


I am curious about a few things here. First the idea of "mastering"
something. Do you have to have "mastered" something to be able to do
it alone? If so, I need some serious supervision in my life because
except maybe for breathing, I haven't mastered anything!LOL! You only
gave the example of cooking so I can't comment on any other situations
of this phenomenon that is producing tension for you and your daughter.
Cooking seems to be an ideal venue for trying out independence. It is
cheap, very safe and endlessly variable. If she wants to cook and bake
without you, let her! Then try the food and unless asked, hold the
comments to yourself! My daughter will be six next month and has been
cooking and baking (with an Easy Bake and in the regular kitchen) since
she was so small she couldn't even see the top of the counter. Her
cakes used to be a mixture of all sorts of "un-cake-like" things
(paprika, flour, jelly) they were horrible to taste but a joy for her
to make. Over the years she has cooked with other people (mostly me) a
lot. She has watched A LOT of cooking shows and now she can even read
cookbooks. She has invented some delicious cakes (chocolate ginger is
the best.) Except for taking things out of the big oven when she was
littler these are completely her projects. Who cares if a cake doesn't
have butter of leavening. It might be good, it might be bad and it
might be different next time.

Your daughter might be on the cusp of a new development stage in her
life that is making her want your companionship but not your input (in
other words, physically being there but not saying a word!) Having
been a being that experienced everything through her body in the early
years, she may be moving into a time when her emotions rule her
thoughts and all experiences are filtered through those emotions. This
new stage of life is often earmarked by increasing abilities and also
increasing desire to be able to "do for oneself." Appearance suddenly
becomes more important as does skills competence. (Steiner, Joseph
Chilton Pearce, Montessori--they all describe these various stages in
different ways. There is a book called "Natural Learning Rhythms" by
Josette and Sambatha Luvmour that distills it all nicely).

I guess what I am trying to say is let her hurtle on ahead, trying
things, experimenting, succeeding, failing as Ms. Frizzle (Magic School
Bus) is fond of saying "Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!" It
might be uncomfortable or even sad for your to "watch from the outside"
for awhile. But as long as she stills invites you in when she is
exuberant or overwhelmed, you will be in good shape. A person need not
"master" something to do it, one just needs to DO IT!

Best wishes to you and your daughter!

Jen (who is eating a muffin experiment as we speak!)
http://circletheworld.blogspot.com

Name Location get it?

Hi Jen,

Thanks for writing I knew I would receive some interesting
perspectives about what was going on and it was a joy to read about
what you have done with your daughter.

It is not that I insist on mastery my wording was just meant to convey
how things are turning out vs how they are intended at the start.

I don't see her as wanting to just play around and experiment because
that is not how she has projected herself. It is not what she sees
herself as doing or wanting to do.

Since I love to bake and cook she has always been exposed to all of
that and could have and has joined in in different ways. She's never
shown a serious interest in anything but the finished products :)

Now all of a sudden she is Julia Childs, Martha or Emril? Leave me
alone in the kitchen mom? Just not what I was expecting.

Are we entering a new stage of development or is this just a
relationship glitch we have never gotten over? LOL it seems like both
the more I write and think about it.

I will give you a non food/kitchen example.

One evening we are headed to the store or must have been a drive
through because she decides to travel without shoes and I am thinking
"riduculous, no no no" but I don't say anything. As we are out I
realize I want to run into a local store, might have been a sale going
on or something I forgot we needed, what ever it is I could not
because she is shoe less. ggggrrrr

We talk about this and I explain to her how this has inconvenienced us
as a family.

Weeks later we are headed to a roller skating rink. She decides to
wear skates only and not take any shoes. Again I am not thrilled about
the idea but I say nothing.

(Because there is this issue of her rejecting my advice)

But half way through our double skating session her feet start hurting
or she just decided she wanted to hang out with her friends rather
than skate whichever. So off came the skates and she shuffled around
shoe less for the next couple of hours. A violation of the rules of
the establishment and to my dismay for the poor socks.

When we were leaving it was evening. She took her socks off to save
them from pavement dirt on the way to the car but she was cold. We
stopped at her friends house to drop them off at home afterwards and
it got later as we were hanging out. On her way home her feet were cold.

We talk about the fact that she could have brought shoes even if she
didn't want to wear them out the door.

The NEXT day we are headed to a park day. There is no sun in the sky
and tho this is CA where we in Northern to Middle CA have had a record
winter in terms of lovely temps it was nippy that day.

As we are getting ready she decides she is wearing flip flops. I said
get some shoes and socks. Now I meant wear them but I didn't utter
that and all I really needed her to do was bring them along.

She starts to argue with me and I start to argue with her. But I catch
myself. I am upset because it amazes me with this recent history of
her shoe choices and the problems it has created she wouldn't think
ahead with me.

I calmly tell her all she has to do is bring the shoes. I ask her
what she has planned should she get cold while we are at the park
because I tell her since I am packing and preparing it is unlikely
that I will want to turn around and come home over this issue.

Pouting she gathers them and I ask her to start packing the car. Just
going from inside to the garage and putting things in the trunk she
decides her feet are FREEZING and opts against flip flops.

When we got to the park she was so cold she wanted to leave early (she
also didn't find any specific friends she wanted to play with so it's
not like she was too cold to have any fun.)

I have tried letting her reap her own consequences, and long before I
tried having her be part of the decision making and plan for her own
comfort but she fought me on that too.

Tosca & Lenelle (9)

Amy Bowers

Could you keep some socks, shoes and a sweatshirt in the car? My daughter is
much younger, so maybe this does not apply - but she often wants to wear
things that are inappropriate (like dollar store high heels to someplace
where we will be walking ALOT). So, I might suggest she forgo her idea
(which she rarely wants to do - of course, who can blame her??) and then we
bring back up stuff (which I am in charge of) and she is fine with that. She
decides when she needs different shoes, shirt etc. and does not feel like
she was forced/coerced into compliance with my ideas.

Amy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 16, 2006, at 4:49 PM, Name Location get it? wrote:

> It is not that I insist on mastery my wording was just meant to convey
> how things are turning out vs how they are intended at the start.



Be careful to write what you mean.

From the posting guidelines for this list:

-=-10. Read and write as clearly as you can. In casual conversation
we often don't realize how much we rely on others to fill in the gist
of our conversation based on what they expect us to say. But here,
without body language or inflection, all we have to go on are your
words and they should say what you mean. If you say, for example, you
"never" do something, it should not mean "almost never."-=-

-=-I don't see her as wanting to just play around and experiment because
that is not how she has projected herself. It is not what she sees
herself as doing or wanting to do.
-=-

This seems like a different person writing now. It has seemed you
were saying clearly that she DID want to cook without using a recipe.

Please write carefully.

-=-One evening we are headed to the store or must have been a drive
through because she decides to travel without shoes and I am thinking
"riduculous, no no no" but I don't say anything. -=-

You could have quietly picked up her shoes and carried them with her.

-=-We talk about this and I explain to her how this has
inconvenienced us
as a family.-=-

More assistance; less explanation from you.

-=-Weeks later we are headed to a roller skating rink. She decides to
wear skates only and not take any shoes. Again I am not thrilled about
the idea but I say nothing.
-=--=-

You could take notes and learn from your mistakes. <g> Keep a pair
of shoes in the car, maybe.

-=-I have tried letting her reap her own consequences, and long before I
tried having her be part of the decision making and plan for her own
comfort but she fought me on that too.-=-

She is only nine years old. It sounds more like entrapment than
letting her reap consequences. If you know so much, get an extra
pair of shoes and socks for her and keep them in the car. And a
jacket. And water, snacks, whatever you have ever wished you had
before.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Name Location get it?

Hi Amy,

Indeed my issue starts with the fact that my dd is older.....

But this problem started back when she was much younger.

I guess where I have been most recently is in a place that says why
should I pack an extra changes of things when she could wear them in
the first place or pack them herself.

We don't have a car currently which further complicates things but
only by slight.

Previously this hasn't been such a serious issue because her choices
of attire haven't negatively impacted me or I was able to convince her
to bring what I anticipated she might need.

But where I see that she sometimes needs things she wouldn't have
brought but that I tell her, she feels that the fact she doesn't
always need them means she shouldn't have to bother.

So simple it's complicated lol

Tosca & Lenelle (9)

queenjane555

> I have tried letting her reap her own consequences, and long before I
> tried having her be part of the decision making and plan for her own
> comfort but she fought me on that too.


Unschooling will work better if the focus is the relationship you have
with your child, and not on "teaching" her something. In the scenario
you posted, about shoes, you seem to want her to learn
(through "natural consequences"?)that she should wear shoes.

How hard would it have been for you to not even MENTION shoes, quietly
pick some up to take with you (or if its a regular occurence just keep
a spare pair in the car)and when she needed them you couldve said "Oh,
there's a pair in the car, let me go get them for you!"...she probably
wouldve been grateful, and thought it was nice of you. Instead you
*know* she will probably need shoes on the outing, and yet you dont
prepare for that.

As far as the kitchen post, i'm a little bothered by the insistence
that since its your mother's kitchen, she needs to do things a certain
way. Will the kitchen actually get more messy her way than your way?
And if so, can part of how you help your daughter be cleaning up the
kitchen for her? Or do you expect her to clean up the entire kitchen
on her own after baking? Thats quite a job for a 9 yr old.

If you focus more on your relationship and less on getting things to
go your way, i bet you both will be alot happier.


Katherine

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 17, 2006, at 2:30 AM, Name Location get it? wrote:

>
> I guess where I have been most recently is in a place that says why
> should I pack an extra changes of things when she could wear them in
> the first place or pack them herself.

--------------

Because you're her mother, and because the place you're going is
important.
Because you're her partner.

The situations you have posed are adversarial. If she takes her
shoes, you win and she loses.
You're making her a loser.

We're trying to help you see ways in which you both win. Please read
the links people have brought. Read here.

http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

Please read and read, try these ideas out, and post your successes
after a few days, instead of continuing in post after post to defend
your adversarial position.



Sandra

Pamela Sorooshian

Hi Tosca!

I think, maybe, you're setting up some conflicts that are
unnecessary. You're thinking that what is important is that she think
ahead and think rationally about what she's going to need, right?

On Feb 17, 2006, at 1:30 AM, Name Location get it? wrote:

> I guess where I have been most recently is in a place that says why
> should I pack an extra changes of things when she could wear them in
> the first place or pack them herself.

Are you feeling a resentful about any other things, too? Because, if
you want her to learn to plan ahead, truly, the best way for HER to
learn to bring along stuff she might need is for you to DO it.

Think about this scenario. Your on your way out the door and you say,
"We might go somewhere else, while we're out, so bring your shoes,
okay?" She says, "No, I don't want to and I won't need them." So -
you gather them up and stick them in your bag (I'm sure you're
carrying some kind of bag). Later, when you want to stop in
somewhere, go ahead and try the bare feet, see what happens. MAYBE
she's right! But, if someone says, "You need shoes to be in here,"
then you can pop them out. You don't have to SAY anything, she'll
think, "Oh - she brought them anyway. Good thing." That's how she'll
learn to be prepared. And the learning might come slowly. It might
not seem to have sunk in - but it will.

Hey - I DID that when we were visiting in Sandra's family in
Albuquerque. It was weird for my kids because the sun was so bright
and the sky so clear and blue, but the air was very cold - colder
than we ever have, here in Southern California. When it is that sunny
and clear here, it is usually reasonably warm, too. They'd leave the
house without sweatshirts or jackets because it didn't look, from
inside, like it was going to be that cold outside. So every time we
left the house, I picked up some jackets and sweatshirts. I also
looked at their feet and if they went out wearing flip-flops, I'd
grab socks and shoes, too. And one time I think even Holly, who lives
there, was happy to wear one of the extra sweatshirts I'd brought along.

Thinking to bring warmer clothes is just something people learn to do
from experience - kids will learn to do it too, over time, because
they see us doing it.

This seems kind of a simple little issue, though, Tosca, so I'm
wondering (guessing) - is there more going on than this - other
conflicts or other ways your expectations aren't being met and you're
feeling a little resentful?

-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Name Location get it?

Heyas Pam,

Thanks for your post.

The extremely frustrating thing about this whole issue (and yes it is
petty in it's own way) is my dd is SO capable of taking care of
herself when she wants to.

Aren't they all? ;>

It's not that she hasn't seen me model preparatory behavior. It's not
that she can't plan ahead.

There are days when she will do everything but prepare my coffee and
drive where we are going. Jackets, sweaters, appropriate dress/shoes,
snacks, drinks and things to entertain herself. And then those days
where she won't brush teeth or hair without being told. go figure

And again I say none of this just started. Now however it is against
the back drop of having our lives turned upside down by being evicted
and coming to live with my parents!

It's not that she is not meeting my expectations it's that I am not
meeting hers.

Our wires and signals are all crossed and miss firing. This much I
know, how to fix it is coming more slowly.

I tried to keep our lives as normal for us as possible but we have
both been grieving and dealing with the new stresses. sigh

Tosca & Lenelle (9)

Name Location get it?

Hi Folks,

I am sharing this message I posted to local groups of mine lately for
those of you who are new and anxious about academics and everything else:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We are a single mother and daughter who were invited to park days by
members of a local hs group when my daughter was about 4 years old.

Seeing ordinary local families raising kids without school, staying
close knit and bonded yet learning and growing so inspired me I
decided to 'try homeschooling'.

And I thought at that time it would mean doing school type work and
definitely testing regularly all at home.

I didn't join a charter or buy any curriculum but mostly because I
didn't know how, I wasn't sure what all my options were or how to
research them but time was passing and before you know it my daughter
was "school age".

She was learning and growing off the charts in social areas with a
vocabulary and skills in articulation that astounded people where ever
we went.

But when I started trying to introduce items of academic structure she
just totally balked....so I backed off wondering what I was doing
wrong and how she was ever going to learn math, science, reading or
anything.

Somewhere along the line I realized homeschooling is not just about an
educational method it's about life and we had been living for years in
the same way we were when she turned 5.

Then the term unschooling came into view and tho I was initially
opposed to purposely not schooling a child it dawned on me I wasn't
schooling and she was still learning all the things I thought I needed
to teach so maybe there was something to the whole idea.

Now years later I am seeing the fruit of me laying down the idea of
schooling at home and embracing the idea that life is learning.

Recently the following happened:

I have introduced many concepts to her but not consistently, and with
no way of gaging proficiency in math beyond general counting, simple
addition, subtraction and basic multiplication.

One day I walk into our room and find her curled up with a math
puzzles work book that has been sitting on her shelf for years. Just
something I picked up at the $1 store one day thinking it might
interest her and looked like something we were capable of doing
together. If she ever got interested.

But here she was just happily working along not even seeming to need
any help and I was thinking; there is no way she can get through that,
we haven't worked on it, we've barely talked about it. There are place
value issues she is going to run into....

She asked me a few questions as she worked and tho I was running the
numbers on a side piece of paper I was careful to just explain what
she asked for only when she asked me.

Later she went to bed not quite finished with the puzzle tired but
feeling happy and satisfied. The next morning she was right back at it
when she woke up till she finished.

Watching her I was thinking if I had been insisting she work on math
in an 'appropriate' way based on what a school system or even society
would say I would have no anxiety about what she knew in terms of her
picking up a text or workbook to spend some time working in.

But would she have the same kind of joy over what she were doing?
Based on my own experiences and stories I hear from others I think not.

This just renewed my faith in the process of just letting her live
and not forcing her to perform and repeat for my benefit under the
mistaken idea that it is best for her.

More recently she became hooked on the Disney channel.

She used to watch very little TV right up until my parents put a
satellite dish link on the TV in the family room and boom within a few
weeks. Yikes lol sigh

She has books, games, puzzles, crafts, friends all kinds of other
options to choose from which we have done for years but TV is suddenly
just a top priority.

I have been mostly biting my tongue but it is hard to just wait this out.

So one day a few weeks ago I bought a 1000 piece jig saw puzzle and
set it up in the room we share. That night long before bed time she
shut off the TV and came in to work on it.

Tucking in my surprise I mentioned that it seemed odd for her to be
away from the TV during prime time if you will. She explained to me
that she didn't want to spend all her time watching TV and not have
any time to work on the puzzle. I didn't say anything else to her and
continued with what I was doing.

But a bit later she added "My life doesn't revolve around TV you know"

I really had to bite my tongue as I laughed inside but it too renewed
my trust in the process.

Tosca & Lenelle (9)

> http://home.earthlink.net/~fetteroll/rejoycing/

Sandra Dodd

Two things:

You're addressing your posts to individuals. Please don't. Write to
the whole list (and it's a big one).


On Feb 18, 2006, at 3:52 AM, Name Location get it? wrote:

> There are days when she will do everything but prepare my coffee and
> drive where we are going. Jackets, sweaters, appropriate dress/shoes,
> snacks, drinks and things to entertain herself. And then those days
> where she won't brush teeth or hair without being told. go figure


"Go figure." We're trying to help you do that!

It's probable that she's responding to your moods and postures and
tone, for one thing. Maybe watch for that for a few weeks and see if
it seems true. See if you can improve her mood with yours. Moods
are quite contagious.

Sandra

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 18, 2006, at 3:25 AM, Name Location get it? wrote:

> But a bit later she added "My life doesn't revolve around TV you know"

She's heard that expression from others, in a derogatory usage,
though. Too bad.

What if her life DID revolve around tv? Why were you biting your
tongue, waiting for it to pass? Why not REVEL together in the new
experience of having all those channels. You might want to think
through your anti-tv bias -- it might be a knee-jerk reaction or
unquestioned acceptance of conventional wisdom.

Good that you withheld your judgment from her though. Imagine really
loving something, getting into it and enjoying it, and knowing that
your mom thinks poorly of it (and, by extension, of you for being
such an idiot that you LOVE it). So that's nice - that you didn't do
that to her!

LOL - reminds me of when my dh and I were in grad school - we were
poor and had no tv. We spent 3 weeks housesitting - which meant we
got to stay in a fantastic house. They had cable tv - and neither of
us had ever had it. We watched EVERYTHING - Australian rules
football, rugby, fishing, and game shows we'd never imagined and ...
on and on.

-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

queenjane555

> What if her life DID revolve around tv? Why were you biting your
> tongue, waiting for it to pass? Why not REVEL together in the new
> experience of having all those channels. You might want to think
> through your anti-tv bias -- it might be a knee-jerk reaction or
> unquestioned acceptance of conventional wisdom.


And when you can totally support whatever it is that your child
loves, you become their partner. My son LOVES the computer...he
spends HOURS on it every day. He has learned so much...he likes
online role playing games (WoW,Everquest,City of Heroes, etc)the
most. While i was reading at www.unschooling.info, i read a post in
the kids section about a game called Furcadia. My son was sleeping.
I checked out the site, and thought he would love it. When i woke
up, i showed him, he downloaded the game and has been playing since.
He was SO excited that i took the time to actually show him MORE
ways to spend his time online.


Katherine

Name Location get it?

Don't get me wrong I love TV and cable lol

I am just not thrilled that since I moved in with my parents their
lifestyle choices have influence over us.

And it felt like she was losing her creative spark by having
uninterrupted access to tv. Hence my statement that seeing her pull
herself away was reassuring.

Right when my parnets got cable my dad went on day shift so he is gone
all day, she watches. And at night he has to go to bed early so she
watches. From the time she wakes up until she's ready for bed that's
where she is. With only 2-4 hours of interruption. Which she resents
as if the tv belongs to her lol sigh.

My mother and I went through that @ my loving things she had no
respect for which makes sense now in a way it didn't then.

I give my dd more space and freedom than I was given but not because I
love what she loves just because I understand some of the attractions
and the harmlessness of her being who she is tho it may not be who I am.

What I appreciate about my mother now is she loves me despite our
differences. Not that she shares my interests. As a child I felt she
not only didn't share my interests but was condemning them and me due
to my interest in them.

So I hope to give my daughter the gift of acceptance through out her
childhood not just when she gets out on her own.

Tosca & Lenelle (9)

Name Location get it?

I was writing of days some of which she woke up before me and was
ready to go or in a funk long before we had any chance to interact.

Or other times when I was happily humming along getting ready in stark
contrast to her dragging her feet.

Usually I have a very positive attitude and am excited to be going out
even if we are running late (usually ;> ) and even if we are headed
only to run errands as opposed to out to a park day or play date.

In the same way she from her earliest days just loved to go out and
about. Which was good because due to us being a single parent family
anywhere I was going so was she.

All of a sudden one day she announced she hated shopping and for weeks
would bummed out during the trip. Whining about when we could leave.
Upset by lines or any other little things that used to not be an issue
at all.

She is still not the shopping diva she used to be.

If she sensed a negative mood coming from me she would just tell me
not adopt it. That has been my experience with her. She just says what
she thinks she is feeling off people she is very perceptive and
articulate.

Tosca & Lenelle (9)
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
....It's probable that she's responding to your moods and postures and
tone, for one thing....

nellebelle

Have you considered setting up the puzzle in the room with the TV? You
could be together, she could watch if she wished, or join you, or some of
both.

I often do things in front of the TV if my kids are in there watching it.
It allows me to interact with them, yet also do some of the things I'd like
to accomplish.

Mary Ellen


----- Original Message ----- > So one day a few weeks ago I bought a 1000
piece jig saw puzzle and
> set it up in the room we share. That night long before bed time she
> shut off the TV and came in to work on it.

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 18, 2006, at 9:06 PM, Name Location get it? wrote:

> Or other times when I was happily humming along getting ready in stark
> contrast to her dragging her feet.


------------------------

You could have helped her.

Antagonism isn't as good as cooperation and assistance.

[email protected]

**The extremely frustrating thing about this whole issue (and yes it is
petty in it's own way) is my dd is SO capable of taking care of
herself when she wants to.**

But she shouldn't HAVE to. She's nine! She's just a little girl, and should
be allowed to be a little girl.

We (as a society) push our kids to be "grown up" early and then later panic
when they decide that they're all grown up before we're ready. Personally, I'd
rather just sidestep that whole dynamic.

They grow up SO fast no matter what you do. Pushing them just advances the
time you'll be sad and nostalgic for times out of reach.

Probably, you'll find that if you take care of her, be helpful and supportive
of her, she'll do the same for you.

Just bring along the shoes, or whatever it is. You'll be glad you did.

Deborah in IL

Lynn Coalson

>
> You could have helped her.
>
> Antagonism isn't as good as cooperation and assistance.
>
Hi There,
I am attemptimg to address the whole list.
There are several dynamics in this relationship that are specific to
the family's situation.
I can only offer suggestions based on my perspective , which is based
on my experiences.This may or may not be helpful to others. I like to
think it will be helpful.
That being said, I have found that watching my daughter play with her
dolls or stuffed animals and pets, has been very revealing. She works
out many issues in her play.
It's like a window into her psyche.
I have been able to observe that she nurtures as she has been
nurtured.
So, pack the shoes, extra clothes, and whatever else you need to feel
prepared , with a happy heart.
Lynn

Name Location get it?

I have decided to sidestep the drama of this issue and just do what
needs to be done for that very reason.

But not because I think it's pushing at all to ask a 9 year old little
girl to bring along shoes or jacket/sweater on an outting.

I was hoping the list could provide some incling of insight into what
it might be about since I don't think that is the issue at all but I
have decide to let go my desire to understand why and just change my
behavior for now.

Which is not to say that I haven't been packing things just that since
I was still asking why I resented it.

Further more she herself is not proud of her behavior. When I ask her
why she is resisting me she tells me she has no idea she is just
focused on herself in the moment for the moment.

Tosca & Lenelle (9)

Name Location get it?

That is what we used to have @ puzzles etc in the same room, and dual
interaction between us almost all of the time.

But now in my parents home and with dish on the tv in the room off the
kitchen which is the common room for all family interaction....

Her computer is out there but not mine or our phone line.

The thing about the puzzle story is I bought it while she was away on
visitation with her father and tho I imagined that she would join me
in being involved with putting it together I never expected that to be
a draw to pull her from her all but incessant viewing.

She has smaller puzzles old and new that she can and does do on the
kitchen counter but there is no place to put the big 1000 peiece one
out there.

When the dish was connected to the obscure tv in the sparcely
furnitured den and only utilized when a special movie or show was
coming on we could pull out the big puzzle but again that is something
I had done and never her.

As close as we are sharing a room now in a house with my parents vs
when we had our own 2 bedroom apt. there are just new little things
here and there pulling us apart.

I am working on that because I do think that's what's wrong with us
these days making everything else worse than it was before.

Never mind the onset of puberty lol sigh

Tosca & Lenelle (9)

nellebelle

>>>>>>>>>>I was hoping the list could provide some incling of insight into
>>>>>>>>>>what
it might be about since I don't think that is the issue at all but I
have decide to let go my desire to understand why and just change my
behavior for now.>>>>>>>>>>>>.

It seems to me that you have received lots of input. I don't know that you
can get insight from others. You can only get words, then you decide what
those words mean to you and how you will react to them.


>>>>>>>>>>>But not because I think it's pushing at all to ask a 9 year old
>>>>>>>>>>>little
girl to bring along shoes or jacket/sweater on an outting.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Nobody has suggested that a parent never ask a child to bring something
along. However, it is pushing if you ask and she doesn't want to but you
still think SHE SHOULD DO IT and insist that she does it or make her feel
bad if she doesn't.

Many people have given lots of ideas for how to make a child's *being warm*
(or having shoes) easier and more convenient for the parent.

Mary Ellen
Whose kids rarely wear coats, even when the temperature drops below 40.

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 20, 2006, at 1:18 PM, Name Location get it? wrote:

> Which is not to say that I haven't been packing things just that since
> I was still asking why I resented it.


This is confusing.
It sounds that you're saying you WERE taking her things for her. If
so, no problem.

Very often it's not behavior that needs to change so much as
attitude. But once the attitude and viewpoint changes, the behavior
becomes easier, and the relationships become better.

-=-Further more she herself is not proud of her behavior. When I ask her
why she is resisting me she tells me she has no idea she is just
focused on herself in the moment for the moment.-=-

That sort of discussion and question ("Why are you resisting me?")
will make people ashamed, and will not improve relationships.

If you start to decide by which principles you want to live, that
will be a better move than deciding to change your behavior without
understanding why.
http://sandradodd.com/rules

Sandra

Name Location get it?

I am her mother I take care of her. If we are leaving the house and
she has no jacket or sweater but I know she needs one I bring one for her.

What I don't understand is why she would refuse to do this for herself
when I ask or tell her to.

Because there have been times where it didn't seem to me she would
need more attire then when she got cold she was miserable.

The fact that the principles of how I want to live my life have not
changed is the reason I can modify my behavior in a way that feels
strange to me for now.

What I was thinking and didn't share with this list because I know it
goes against policy etc. was "I am right she is acting crazy and there
is no need for me to...." but going all the way back to basic I
thought what does it mean when a baby cries?

Something is wrong. Just because whomever hears it doesn't know what
does not mean the child is crying for no reason and the proper
response is love and care. After addressing every need you know of you
still just have to hold them and love them.

Being right about the fact that nothing is wrong that you can figure
out will not stop the crying. Neither will getting mad etc.

It seems like babyish behavior to me that my daughter is exhibiting
but the answer is still my love and care.

Tosca & Lenelle (9)

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 20, 2006, at 4:20 PM, Name Location get it? wrote:

> What I don't understand is why she would refuse to do this for herself
> when I ask or tell her to.

Because you're in a power struggle? It is NORMAL for people to resist
being ordered to do something. I'd guess that your daughter is not
liking the feeling of being ordered around (told what to do). Or,
maybe she's kind of embarrassed to have to be reminded and her
response is to get angry and to deny that you're right. Maybe being
"right" is a big deal in her mind - maybe she's a perfectionistic
person who gets upset when she doesn't remember everything, all the
time. Maybe she thinks you're disappointed in her - maybe she's
right? Maybe she's just getting some hormonal changes and that causes
her to be more emotional than she has been in the past and you are
over-reacting to that. Sometimes people with just one child are
simply looking too hard at them - seeing normal small variations in
behavior, as the child goes through life, as having more significance
than they really have - and sometimes taking things too personally. I
do get a sense of you making a mountain out of a molehill on this issue.

No matter which explanation is correct - one of the above or some
other explanation - the best response is probably what you came up
with yourself - for you to lighten up and just continue to be helpful
and NOT make a big deal out of any of this.


-pam
Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

On Feb 20, 2006, at 4:20 PM, Name Location get it? wrote:

> It seems like babyish behavior to me that my daughter is exhibiting
> but the answer is still my love and care.

She's only NINE - it has not been that long since she was TRULY a
baby. Let her be babyish - enjoy it - take care of her and be really
careful you're not, unconsciously, putting subtle pressure on her to
be more grown up.

And let go of these unimportant things - so what if she might still
be forgetting her shoes when she's 30. Its okay. She can be a
wonderful person in spite of not being perfect.

-pam

Unschooling shirts, cups, bumper stickers, bags...
Live Love Learn
UNSCHOOL!
<http://www.cafepress.com/livelovelearn>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

On Feb 20, 2006, at 5:20 PM, Name Location get it? wrote:

> What I don't understand is why she would refuse to do this for herself
> when I ask or tell her to.


If your relationship is antagonistic, as it seems to be from some of
the things you have written, then she will not be doing things for
herself, she will be doing things for you. And the only way she can
win is to NOT do what you want.

Change your stance and alignment to her so that you are side by side
instead of faciing off.

Don't ask her or tell her to do anything. Do things for your team,
for you and for her. And then she will start to do things for your
team too, AFTER she trusts you, and that will take a while.

-=-What I was thinking and didn't share with this list because I know it
goes against policy etc. was "I am right she is acting crazy and there
is no need for me to...." but going all the way back to basic I
thought what does it mean when a baby cries?-=-

I don't think you're right, I don't think she is acting crazy, I
think you're creating and maintaining a difficult relationship when
you could more easily take just a little of the TON of good advice
people are offering and make your lives better today.

-=-It seems like babyish behavior to me that my daughter is exhibiting
but the answer is still my love and care.
-=-

The onus is on you to be the more mature partner, always.

Sandra

Lynn Coalson

> I don't think you're right, I don't think she is acting crazy, I
> think you're creating and maintaining a difficult relationship when
> you could more easily take just a little of the TON of good advice
> people are offering and make your lives better today.
>
> Well said!

Name Location get it?

The hilarious thing about reading this list is it is the ONLY place
where people keep trying to tell me how old my daughter is as if I am
expecting too much from her.

Everyone who meets her and us understands much differently that it is
she who puts the not at all subtle pressure on others to treat her
more like an older child if not an adult.

Name Location get it?

But I don't recall entering into or setting us up in a power struggle
that's the problem had that been my intent I could be sitting back
content.

Yes puberty is a factor in all that is going on!

Indeed a bit of gifted perfectionism could be at play....but the
interesting thing about that was when puberty started to physically
manifest what I clearly saw was how what I could now identify as mood
swings have always been a part of her personality.

All that being said writing about this in a place where I am not known
and emotionally supported has given me the perspective I needed. Not
always to mirror back the party line but still getting me back to center.

We've been through alot losing our job, home, car/mobility, and tho so
much I have tried to let our lives stay the same and true to what I
believe is best for us things have changed. In my coping and her
coping we were starting to disconnect.

And she was doing what I can see I have done "telling me what she
doesn't like about what I am doing" instead of asking me for what she
wants and needs.

It's not that I started focussing on the little things it was that
with nothing else in our life, no friends, no outtings, no job, there
were no distractions from the little things. If we aren't completely
in tune it feels like sand paper rubbing us both the wrong way.

I have never been a full time hands on mom where we do everything
together for the bulk of the day. We did things around each other and
came together for projects, activities, events etc. So when in our
grief and depression we started going off in our own directions to
cope it seemed that would be ok.

But indeed it is not.

So we are making changes! It's really rather simple and it makes
perfect sense.

Thanks all

Tosca & Lenelle (9)