Brandie

I was reading this quote:
"One of the first effects of school is to break the bond between parents and children, when the children are five or younger. It breaks bonds between siblings, and replaces them with prejudices about age and grade, with rules against playing with kids of other ages, and with social pressure to be hateful and secretive." --Sandra Dodd

And it reminded me of when my sister (who was a year and five days younger than me) had to play on the kindergarten playground, while I had to be on the playground for kids grades 1-3. The playgrounds were literally divided by a big fence. Recess was at the same time for the different grade levels, so my little sister came to the fence, crying hysterically, putting her arms through the holes to touch me. I had to stand there and reassure her that we could be together after school and that everything would be okay. A teacher came over and tried to convince her to leave the fence and to go play and have fun with the other kids.

I hadn't thought much about this as an adult until reading that quote. Children should never have to go through that.




Brandie
http://tableforfive.blogspot.com
http://homemadeliving.blogspot.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

At my school, the older kids stood by the fence and sang to the little
kids -- "Kindergarten baby, born in the gravy, belong in the navy," in
sing-song voices. I had TWO younger sisters and I wish I could say I
spoke up to stop it, but I didn't.

-pam


On Jul 19, 2005, at 3:32 PM, Brandie wrote:

> Recess was at the same time for the different grade levels, so my
> little sister came to the fence, crying hysterically, putting her arms
> through the holes to touch me. I had to stand there and reassure her
> that we could be together after school and that everything would be
> okay.
>

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< At my school, the older kids stood by the fence and sang to the little

kids -- "Kindergarten baby, born in the gravy, belong in the navy," in
sing-song voices. I had TWO younger sisters and I wish I could say I
spoke up to stop it, but I didn't.>>>>

Where I went to grade school in Australia, there was fence between the boys'
and girls' playgrounds.

Later at a different school, the dividing line was between the "Infants'
School" - Kindergarten, Transition, First Class, Second Class - and Primary
School - 3rd through 6th. They had their own playgrounds nowhere near each
other. In fact the classrooms were in different unconnected buildings. The
High school (7-12) was in yet another part of the school grounds, with the
Seniors (11 & 12) having their own common room and bathroom on their own
floor of the main school building.

Supervising the lower grades at morning assembly or lining up after lunch
was a chore allocated to the prefects.

Robyn L. Coburn


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005

Gwen McCrea

> "One of the first effects of school is to break the bond between
parents and children, when the children are five or younger. <snip>
--Sandra Dodd
>


Just yesterday I had a moment of clarity about this, and also related
to the way that school artificially extends childhood and is
separated, both in rhetoric and reality, from real life.

Our older son Gabriel (9) was schooled until he was almost 8, when we
decided to homeschool, and quickly moved into unschooling. Our
relationship has improved so much since he's been out of school!
Yesterday, I was thinking back to when I first sent him to school. It
was when he was four (and started going to a Montessori pre-school),
and I was very conflicted about it. I had always done attachment
parenting, and it was such a break in our lives for him to go to school.

So why did I go through with it? I now think that it was because it
made me feel like I was more of a "real grown-up", sending my kid to
school from 8:30 to 5 so that I could be at work (even though I wasn't
at work, I was starting grad school.) But that last phrase shouldn't
even be parenthetical, because that's the heart of the matter.

I had always bought into school being preparation for real life,
therefore feeling that I wasn't really living my real life as long as
I was in school. I got pregnant my last semester in college, and I
moved in with my parents right after Gabriel was born. I helped out in
their bakery, so that I could be with Gabriel, and I never went out
and got that "first job out of college", thereby initiating me into
what counts for "real life".

Then when he was three, I applied to and was accepted to graduate
school. But somehow, in my mind, being in grad school also did not
count as real life, and being a student again made me feel like I was
not an adult, although I had been raising my son on my own for four
years, and doing an okay job of it, I think. So I justified breaking
bonds with Gabriel in order to make myself feel better and more grown up.

And you know, once they're in school, so many other things can creep
in, bedtimes (because they have to get up early), and homework trying
to make parents take sides with school against their kids, etc. etc.,
which chips away at the parent-child relationship every day.

I am just so thankful that we re-evaluated our lives, and our
relationships with our kids, and took Gabriel out of school and will
never send Raphael.

I hope this post makes at least some sense, as I've been interrupted
many many times by a one-year-old who's super excited about learning
to walk...

Gwen

Betsy Hill

**Our older son Gabriel (9) was schooled until he was almost 8, when we
decided to homeschool, and quickly moved into unschooling. Our
relationship has improved so much since he's been out of school!**

I have a friend who sent her son to school for K and 1st Grades. After
removing him, she talked about what a terrible lifestyle it was and how
much she didn't like doing it. Her summary was "I had to make him get
up, make him get dressed and go to school." Then, after school he was
engaged with the kids there so, as she said "I had to make him go home;
make him do his homework and make him go to bed." (On top of that his
dad got home from work every day at 7 or later, which didn't allow much
family time.) And yet lots of people live this lifestyle and accept it
as normal!

Betsy

K Krejci

--- Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@...> wrote:

<snip> Her summary was "I
> had to make him get
> up, make him get dressed and go to school." Then,
> after school he was
> engaged with the kids there so, as she said "I had
> to make him go home;
> make him do his homework and make him go to bed."

This is one of the more difficult things we
experience. There are times when you have to BE
somewhere ON TIME. There seem to be times that no
matter how I try to account for my pokiness factor
(and I am exceedingly poky!) or Ellis' usual habits,
we end up having a rush and push event. And it isn't
fun for anyone!

Any suggestions? Or is this just something that
sometimes happens when you have to interact with the
world that refuses to run on Kathy Standard Time?

Kathy

It's Good 2 B Dog Nutz!
http://www.good2bdognutz.com

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

soggyboysmom

--- In [email protected], K Krejci
<kraekrej@y...> wrote:
> --- Betsy Hill <ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
>
> <snip> Her summary was "I
> > had to make him get
> > up, make him get dressed and go to school." Then,
> > after school he was
> > engaged with the kids there so, as she said "I had
> > to make him go home;
> > make him do his homework and make him go to bed."
>
> This is one of the more difficult things we
> experience. There are times when you have to BE
> somewhere ON TIME. There seem to be times that no
> matter how I try to account for my pokiness factor
> (and I am exceedingly poky!) or Ellis' usual habits,
> we end up having a rush and push event. And it isn't
> fun for anyone!
>
> Any suggestions? Or is this just something that
> sometimes happens when you have to interact with the
> world that refuses to run on Kathy Standard Time?
>
> Kathy
We plan that if we have an appointment at 9, that we need to be
there at 8:45 - by targeting a time earlier, if we get running 5
minutes behind, we still hit the appointment early/on time. We keep
a list of the month's activities and appointments (stuff we need to
be somewhere at a set time for) on the kitchen chalkboard so anyone
can check what and when and where at any time. We discuss the week
ahead on Sunday evening. We discuss the next day each evening around
dinner. We discuss the day's plans in the morning. Whenever
possible, we pack up, set out, etc whatever we'll need in the
morning the evening before. Sometimes, if we've got 10 minutes
before leaving and we're just kind of meandering, I'll set a timer
to remind myself when we need to get going - note that the 10
minutes is until we need to be getting stuff together and heading
out the door, not when we need to be leaving the driveway. We also
assume that there'll be 10 minutes or so worth of stopping at
traffic lights, stop signs, slow drivers, etc so if it takes 20
minutes to drive somewhere, we leave 30 minutes beforehand and add
another 10 to 15 minutes to arrive early/on time. That way, if we
are moving slowly or something happens last minute, we've got
leeway. We talk a lot the whole way through - "I'm going to get our
shoes so we can be ready to leave in 10 minutes", "I'll help you get
your shoes on since we're leaving in 5 minutes", "Is there anything
you want to carry along now when we're leaving?" Arranging things as
much as possible such that departure coincides with the ending of 15
and 30 minute programming blocks (especially in the morning-DS likes
to 'wake up' to familiar TV programs before he really gets going) is
helpful - no need to tear anyone away from anything (and we're
looking into DVR so we can record stuff). DS often finds it helpful
in making the transition from home to elsewhere by bringing
something along - a toy, book, some little doodad of some form that
is a 'piece of home' to provide continuity in moving from one
activity/place/event to another. Something I've found important for
myself is to shower, eat and get myself ready before even waking DS
(assuming we're going somewhere first thing in the a.m. which is
pretty rare except for Sunday mornings). Once I have everything set,
I can then focus 100% on DS getting ready and out the door and that
canmake a world of difference. DH goes into his own little
intersecting orbit and gets himself ready and gets stuff out to the
vehicle while I concentrate on DS. If it is just DS and DH (DH is
the at home parent) then (a) we try to avoid anything before 10 am
(b) we prep DS the night before to know that in the morning x is
happening at y time (c) we talk about what to expect, what will
happen, what might happen, what could happen (d) we include him in
the planning for the morning - perhaps they stop for a donut on the
way or they plan to get lunch afterward or the decide to go to the
park or whatever - there have been times when DS has suggested
stopping at the bookstore after an appointment - that's a relaxing
thing for him (and we like it too - we all just take a deep, paper-
and-print scented breath and relax as we walk in the door). Whatever
it is, we try to work up a plan that fits as many needs/wants as
possible. We also limit running around times so if there's a set
appointment on Tuesday, there's nothing else planned for Tuesday
except whatever free-form stuff gets added. We don't do back to back
to back appointment running. I know that in some places, where you
have to drive an hour to anywhere, that's just not practical, but it
works for us.

HTH
--Deb

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/19/2005 8:05:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

At my school, the older kids stood by the fence and sang to the little
kids -- "Kindergarten baby, born in the gravy, belong in the navy," in
sing-song voices. I had TWO younger sisters and I wish I could say I
spoke up to stop it, but I didn't.

-pam



**************************
Pam, I remember this too...I tell my kids that I remember having this sung
to our Kindergarten class through the fence by older kids, and I couldn't
understand why they were being so mean!

You didn't go to Tincher, did you Pam?? No one else I know has ever heard
this "song." (I grew up in L.B. I think I told you a long time ago.) In
fact, Nicholas Cage (known to us as "Nikki Coppola") was in my grade!!

Nancy B.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Jul 20, 2005, at 10:54 PM, CelticFrau@... wrote:

> Pam, I remember this too...I tell my kids that I remember having this
> sung
> to our Kindergarten class through the fence by older kids, and I
> couldn't
> understand why they were being so mean!

>
> You didn't go to Tincher, did you Pam?? No one else I know has ever
> heard
> this "song." (I grew up in L.B. I think I told you a long time ago.)
> In
> fact, Nicholas Cage (known to us as "Nikki Coppola") was in my grade!!

Tincher is about a block away from where our park days are <G>. I
didn't go to Tincher, although I knew lots of kids there. I went to
Prisk, which is about a mile away. The schools are exactly identical
duplicates of each other!

So - you think that nasty song was a Long Beach, California, original?
There was a HUGE amount of meanness on the playground - I can see, now,
how just the way it was set up was guaranteed to nurture conflict. Plus
- we had nothing but a huge big asphalt area to play - you might have
had some decent trees (since I know you're a bit younger than I am),
but the trees were all newly planted sticks <g> when I was there - no
shade. There was a rectangular grassy area - with no trees - but nobody
was allowed to PLAY on it. My school was very very overcrowded and so
we had bungalows (temporary buildings) that were small and hot and had
terrible acoustics. My next door neighbor, a kid named Mikey, burned
down the bungalow my 6th grade class was in - he was playing with
matches, I was told. I always hated the bungalows because they shook
when kids walked around in them - felt like a little earthquake.

Ahhh - memories! <G>

-pam

Angela S.

> You didn't go to Tincher, did you Pam?? No one else I know has ever
heard
> this "song." (I grew up in L.B. I think I told you a long time ago.) In
> fact, Nicholas Cage (known to us as "Nikki Coppola") was in my grade!!
>

A similar version of that song was sung at my grade school:

Kindergarten baby
Stick your head in gravy
Wash it out with bubble gum
And send it to the Navy

Doesn't even make sense but the little kids knew it was hurtful anyway.
It's not like they could help how old they were.
:(

Angela
game-enthusiast@...

[email protected]

In a message dated 7/21/2005 2:40:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
pamsoroosh@... writes:

So - you think that nasty song was a Long Beach, California, original?
There was a HUGE amount of meanness on the playground - I can see, now,
how just the way it was set up was guaranteed to nurture conflict. Plus
- we had nothing but a huge big asphalt area to play - you might have
had some decent trees (since I know you're a bit younger than I am),
but the trees were all newly planted sticks <g> when I was there - no
shade.
***********************
By the time I was there we had a few decent trees, and we'd congregate under
them and play hand clapping games (remember those?) or "Chinese" jumprope.
I remember the grassy area too...only used for special occasions.

I was the type of kid who always stuck up for the underdog, though I was a
bit shy and a sort of underdog myself. I would almost seek out kids everyone
else hated and make friends with them. Though being shy myself, I was afraid
to fight or step in if someone threatened them.

There was one boy, Albert, who was fat, freckled, flaming red hair...he was
teased (called Fat Albert) from Kindergarten up until Jr. High (and probably
after, we went to different high schools). When I worked at the Long Beach
Police, I was doing filing and ran across his arrest record folder. He had a
bunch of arrests for being under the influence, drunk and disorderly, etc. I
got tears in my eyes and all I could think was "we did this to him." (we,
meaning his peers.) While working in PD records, I ran across many of the
same sad stories...kids who were harassed, later ending up with terrible lives.
Things like this have cemented my faith in homeschooling/unschooling.

There was a rectangular grassy area - with no trees - but nobody
was allowed to PLAY on it. My school was very very overcrowded and so
we had bungalows (temporary buildings) that were small and hot and had
terrible acoustics. My next door neighbor, a kid named Mikey, burned
down the bungalow my 6th grade class was in - he was playing with
matches, I was told. I always hated the bungalows because they shook
when kids walked around in them - felt like a little earthquake
*************
We had them too, though they were just used for stuff like Brownie meetings
after school, boy scouts, etc. The acoustics were horrid!! And we'd get
about 20 little girls in there all trying to talk at the same time.
AAAaackkkk!!!

Nancy B.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]