Re: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Being the adult was: RE:otterpop advice
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/22/2005 9:28:22 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
Is it
important, for the sake of the younger child, in my case aged 7, to
intervene when the older child (14) is behaving more like a same-aged
sibling ie. bickering, correcting and controlling on a regular basis?
I think it's absolutely crucial for each person to feel safe and at peace in
his own home.
If you would intervene if a stranger burst in the door and started arguing
with or controlling your seven year old, why would you let anyone else do that?
-=-He responds/reacts to every little word and action his
sister makes. He choses every battle with her. -=-
It's not choosing if it's a kneejerk constant.
Tell him if someone from outside the family treated him badly you would step
in immediately, and so you need to do that for Zoe just as you would do it
for him.
-=-At other times, especially when
I feel like I've been intervening constantly, I back off and let the
chips fall where they may. -=-
If you've been intervening constantly, Zach isn't getting the point. Are
you maybe making rules instead of instilling principles? Are you maybe
"intervening" in such particular ways ("give it back" or "Leave her alone") that the
solution isn't applicable to the next situation ten minutes later?
_http://sandradodd.com/rules_ (http://sandradodd.com/rules)
_http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting_ (http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting)
-=-I've told him before, not to try to be her parent (bossing,
correcting etc). Then, today, I told him to try to behave more like a
loving parent would toward her. I wanted him to be patient with her
and chose his "battles" carefully. He called me on that one.-=-
Called you on it how?
There should be NO "battles."
Is she keeping him from having space and privacy? You need to guard his
peace too.
Maybe he called you on this:
-=-I've told him before, not to try to be her parent (bossing,
correcting etc). Then, today, I told him to try to behave more like a
loving parent would toward her. -=-
How about moving toward treating them as people rather than children, so
they can treat each other as people, not "as siblings." He should be treating
her the way he treats neighbors, strangers, friends. Too many families use
"sibling rivalry" as a license to ignore their kids. It's cruel and
neglectful.
He shouldn't even be thinking of parenting. He's not a parent.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
Is it
important, for the sake of the younger child, in my case aged 7, to
intervene when the older child (14) is behaving more like a same-aged
sibling ie. bickering, correcting and controlling on a regular basis?
I think it's absolutely crucial for each person to feel safe and at peace in
his own home.
If you would intervene if a stranger burst in the door and started arguing
with or controlling your seven year old, why would you let anyone else do that?
-=-He responds/reacts to every little word and action his
sister makes. He choses every battle with her. -=-
It's not choosing if it's a kneejerk constant.
Tell him if someone from outside the family treated him badly you would step
in immediately, and so you need to do that for Zoe just as you would do it
for him.
-=-At other times, especially when
I feel like I've been intervening constantly, I back off and let the
chips fall where they may. -=-
If you've been intervening constantly, Zach isn't getting the point. Are
you maybe making rules instead of instilling principles? Are you maybe
"intervening" in such particular ways ("give it back" or "Leave her alone") that the
solution isn't applicable to the next situation ten minutes later?
_http://sandradodd.com/rules_ (http://sandradodd.com/rules)
_http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting_ (http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting)
-=-I've told him before, not to try to be her parent (bossing,
correcting etc). Then, today, I told him to try to behave more like a
loving parent would toward her. I wanted him to be patient with her
and chose his "battles" carefully. He called me on that one.-=-
Called you on it how?
There should be NO "battles."
Is she keeping him from having space and privacy? You need to guard his
peace too.
Maybe he called you on this:
-=-I've told him before, not to try to be her parent (bossing,
correcting etc). Then, today, I told him to try to behave more like a
loving parent would toward her. -=-
How about moving toward treating them as people rather than children, so
they can treat each other as people, not "as siblings." He should be treating
her the way he treats neighbors, strangers, friends. Too many families use
"sibling rivalry" as a license to ignore their kids. It's cruel and
neglectful.
He shouldn't even be thinking of parenting. He's not a parent.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Jun 21, 2005, at 6:47 PM, Sandrewmama wrote:
she does something cute and share a private smile, for example. Also,
talk with him - bring him in as a partner - on how you've changed your
way of responding and why and what you expect to come of it and how it
is different than what you did to him and how you WISH you'd done
things differently and now he has a chance to be different with his
sister than you and his dad were with him. Etc.
Make him your partner.
Sounds like you're still thinking somewhat in terms that put you and
him on opposite sides.
-pam
> OK, I'm not feeling very eloquent tonight so I may not have explainedTreat him as if he IS already being kind to her - catch his eye when
> myself clearly. Mostly, I'm trying to figure out how to get Zach to
> be kinder to Zoe without always calling him on the carpet about his
> treatment of her and without sacrificing her growth.
she does something cute and share a private smile, for example. Also,
talk with him - bring him in as a partner - on how you've changed your
way of responding and why and what you expect to come of it and how it
is different than what you did to him and how you WISH you'd done
things differently and now he has a chance to be different with his
sister than you and his dad were with him. Etc.
Make him your partner.
Sounds like you're still thinking somewhat in terms that put you and
him on opposite sides.
-pam
Sue Patterson
> In a message dated 6/22/2005 9:28:22 AM Mountain Daylight Time,-=-I've told him before, not to try to be her parent (bossing,
> sandrewmama@m... writes:
correcting etc). Then, today, I told him to try to behave more like a
loving parent would toward her.>>
Michael (16) has done this with Alyssa (11). I think that as kids
get older, they watch a little more. They notice how effective our
parenting is. And, in our case, he thinks I'm not being very
effective. <g> He thinks that Alyssa is "getting away with" all
kinds of things. And he thinks he can correct the situation.
Instead of during the heat of the moment, I pulled Michael aside and
said, "I know you're trying to help me, but it's not really helping.
Instead, it makes Alyssa feel like we're ganging up on her, and then
we have another problem starting up. So, even though you think I'm
not doing a great job, I need you to keep your thoughts to yourself
and come to me afterwards if you have suggestions or ideas. You're
her brother, not her parent." Like Sandra said, sometimes it's more
of a knee-jerk reaction on his part. And that just means it's a bad
habit that needs work.
Something I just thought of... maybe I should have a conversation
with Michael about the coolness of being "the big brother." How
younger siblings might be more open to older sibling advice at
quieter times. And, I would think it might have a big impact - maybe
even a great sibling-bonding kind of conversation. Although this
will have to wait, since Michael is in Japan for the summer. sigh.
Just some thoughts...
Sue
Diana Tashjian
Another thing I wondered about was whether or not Michael is feeling
like he gets his share of attention, etc. I think sometimes it's hard
for the older kids who might feel like there are double standards in
how they're supposed to behave versus the younger kids. Maybe he's
wanting more TLC, etc. I don't know - it's just an idea...
Diana Tashjian
like he gets his share of attention, etc. I think sometimes it's hard
for the older kids who might feel like there are double standards in
how they're supposed to behave versus the younger kids. Maybe he's
wanting more TLC, etc. I don't know - it's just an idea...
Diana Tashjian
----- Original Message -----
> -=-I've told him before, not to try to be her parent (bossing,
> correcting etc). Then, today, I told him to try to behave more like
> a
> loving parent would toward her.>>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/2005 3:21:16 AM Central Standard Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
Telling her to hold his hand in the parking lot is one I like him
chosing but telling her not to sing out loud as we walk down a nature
path is not.
~~~
Sounds to me like he needs some help in asking nicely.
"Don't sing!' or "Hold my hand!" are commands.
"Susie, did you hear that woodpecker?" or "I feel we're safer when I hold
your hand, Susie." are ways to ask for what he wants which also show her that he
cares for her.
When my youngest was a baby, I helped my older sons find ways to deal with
the baby and get what they want without making him cry. Sometimes the baby
would pick up a particular toy they had just been using, say, a matchbox car,
which they wanted back. I showed them they could trade with him, not just
grab it out of his hand or complain that Will had the toy. They learned to
give him something else, and not just some baby toy, to get the car back. They
also learned that the baby would interrupt them a lot, but if they gave him
their full attention at that moment, he would soon lose interest and they
could get back to what they were doing.
To my oldest sons, it seemed like they were learning "tricks" at first.
They didn't want to make him cry, because they loved him. They soon realized
these weren't actually tricks and wouldn't work for long because the baby
adapted and the boys had to learn new ways to get what they wanted while they
played. They couldn't be fake or obvious with him, because they realized he
knew. He amazed them with how much he knew and could learn, and so they spent
time trying to teach him new things and playing with him. Kind of like he was
a toy, at first, but then it became a relationship, as he started toddling
around.
I will say that my middle and youngest (9 years apart) reached a point when
the middle was about 14 or 15 where they were like oil and water. I could no
longer allow them to be at home alone together. I really can't say the
younger one was an instigator, ever. He was just being 5 or 6, but the older one
couldn't take it. Low tolerance. It was an awful time there for a while.
I just kept them apart as much as possible until the older one could mellow
out.
I think it's a good idea to apologize to your son for the way you treated
him earlier (I've done that). Have a good talk with him about how you see
things now, and display that you've had a serious, life-encompassing change of
heart. Talk about how it's never too late to do better, and that's what you're
trying to do for him, and for his sister. Listen to him, too. Ask him why
he thinks it's okay to treat her that way; what's going through his mind
which leads to the words, etc. Demonstrate a loving relationship with him, and
show him how to pass it on to his sister.
It's worth it.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
Telling her to hold his hand in the parking lot is one I like him
chosing but telling her not to sing out loud as we walk down a nature
path is not.
~~~
Sounds to me like he needs some help in asking nicely.
"Don't sing!' or "Hold my hand!" are commands.
"Susie, did you hear that woodpecker?" or "I feel we're safer when I hold
your hand, Susie." are ways to ask for what he wants which also show her that he
cares for her.
When my youngest was a baby, I helped my older sons find ways to deal with
the baby and get what they want without making him cry. Sometimes the baby
would pick up a particular toy they had just been using, say, a matchbox car,
which they wanted back. I showed them they could trade with him, not just
grab it out of his hand or complain that Will had the toy. They learned to
give him something else, and not just some baby toy, to get the car back. They
also learned that the baby would interrupt them a lot, but if they gave him
their full attention at that moment, he would soon lose interest and they
could get back to what they were doing.
To my oldest sons, it seemed like they were learning "tricks" at first.
They didn't want to make him cry, because they loved him. They soon realized
these weren't actually tricks and wouldn't work for long because the baby
adapted and the boys had to learn new ways to get what they wanted while they
played. They couldn't be fake or obvious with him, because they realized he
knew. He amazed them with how much he knew and could learn, and so they spent
time trying to teach him new things and playing with him. Kind of like he was
a toy, at first, but then it became a relationship, as he started toddling
around.
I will say that my middle and youngest (9 years apart) reached a point when
the middle was about 14 or 15 where they were like oil and water. I could no
longer allow them to be at home alone together. I really can't say the
younger one was an instigator, ever. He was just being 5 or 6, but the older one
couldn't take it. Low tolerance. It was an awful time there for a while.
I just kept them apart as much as possible until the older one could mellow
out.
I think it's a good idea to apologize to your son for the way you treated
him earlier (I've done that). Have a good talk with him about how you see
things now, and display that you've had a serious, life-encompassing change of
heart. Talk about how it's never too late to do better, and that's what you're
trying to do for him, and for his sister. Listen to him, too. Ask him why
he thinks it's okay to treat her that way; what's going through his mind
which leads to the words, etc. Demonstrate a loving relationship with him, and
show him how to pass it on to his sister.
It's worth it.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], Sandrewmama
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
means to be a sibling.
good reasons he told her to hold his hand, but...Why is he, instead of
you, responsible for her in the parking lot? Could you have told her
to hold his hand? Could you have held his hand while he carried
packages or whatever? I'm wondering if there's too much focus on
responsibility right now. Maybe you can try to remove a bunch of that
and let him figure out how to be more of a friend.
You said you try to give him alone time, but what are you doing when
they are together? Does he think you should be doing more, telling her
not to sing loudly etc.?
-aj
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
> No, he's not a parent and someday he will make a very good parent.I
> should have said that I want him to love and care deeply for herand
> her well being, physically and emotionally.Maybe you and he, together and/or separately, need to ponder what it
means to be a sibling.
> Telling her to hold his hand in the parking lot is one I like himnature
> chosing but telling her not to sing out loud as we walk down a
> path is not.Okay, I'm picking on this example and I'm sure there could be lots of
good reasons he told her to hold his hand, but...Why is he, instead of
you, responsible for her in the parking lot? Could you have told her
to hold his hand? Could you have held his hand while he carried
packages or whatever? I'm wondering if there's too much focus on
responsibility right now. Maybe you can try to remove a bunch of that
and let him figure out how to be more of a friend.
You said you try to give him alone time, but what are you doing when
they are together? Does he think you should be doing more, telling her
not to sing loudly etc.?
-aj
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/2005 2:21:16 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
No, he's not a parent and someday he will make a very good parent. I
should have said that I want him to love and care deeply for her and
her well being, physically and emotionally.
--------------------
Isn't that asking too much of a sibling? If it happens naturally, great,
but to set it up so that if he doesn't love and care deeply for her he's "done
it wrong" or been a bad brother doesn't seem fair.
It's really not my job to care deeply for my sister's physical and emotional
wellbeing. Some seasons I do, and some seasons she's been irresponsible and
irritating and I would rather not get involved with her stuff. But we're
grown. When we were little I had even less energy and ability to feel
responsible for her. (Not that I didn't very often end up being and doing more for
her than my mom did, but when it's voluntary it's my choice.)
What I tell my kids is "If you can't make it better, at least don't make it
worse."
With that as my preferred position for them to take, they most often DO make
each others' lives better voluntarily.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
No, he's not a parent and someday he will make a very good parent. I
should have said that I want him to love and care deeply for her and
her well being, physically and emotionally.
--------------------
Isn't that asking too much of a sibling? If it happens naturally, great,
but to set it up so that if he doesn't love and care deeply for her he's "done
it wrong" or been a bad brother doesn't seem fair.
It's really not my job to care deeply for my sister's physical and emotional
wellbeing. Some seasons I do, and some seasons she's been irresponsible and
irritating and I would rather not get involved with her stuff. But we're
grown. When we were little I had even less energy and ability to feel
responsible for her. (Not that I didn't very often end up being and doing more for
her than my mom did, but when it's voluntary it's my choice.)
What I tell my kids is "If you can't make it better, at least don't make it
worse."
With that as my preferred position for them to take, they most often DO make
each others' lives better voluntarily.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Salamander starr
Also, have you discussed with him it is okay for him to feel
put-out/irritated/annoyed/tired of etc...in regards to his little sister?
My dd went through a period (albeit very brief) of saying she hated her
little brother (2 years younger). I would respond with something like what
makes you feel that way? Little brothers can be annoying...do you need some
time away? Something along those lines. It quickly became, my little
brother is a pest but I guess I love him anyway. I think just knowing it
was ok to be annoyed instead being made to feel guilty, like she's done
something wrong (like when she says that type of thing in front of mil) made
it easier for her to spend so much time with him. Which is good, because
most days she doesn't have a lot of choice in that particular area.
Amanda, AL
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all.
--Oscar Wilde
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
put-out/irritated/annoyed/tired of etc...in regards to his little sister?
My dd went through a period (albeit very brief) of saying she hated her
little brother (2 years younger). I would respond with something like what
makes you feel that way? Little brothers can be annoying...do you need some
time away? Something along those lines. It quickly became, my little
brother is a pest but I guess I love him anyway. I think just knowing it
was ok to be annoyed instead being made to feel guilty, like she's done
something wrong (like when she says that type of thing in front of mil) made
it easier for her to spend so much time with him. Which is good, because
most days she doesn't have a lot of choice in that particular area.
Amanda, AL
To live is the rarest thing in the world. Most people exist, that is all.
--Oscar Wilde
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
arcarpenter2003
--- In [email protected], Sandrewmama
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
==Telling her to hold his hand in the parking lot is one I like him
children. "Were you worried about her in the parking lot?" (And to
the daughter), "Did you feel like you're old enough to look for cars
on your own?"
Again, on the nature path, "Is the singing bothering you, or do you
just think she shouldn't do it here?" And to your daughter, "You just
feel so happy that you're singing, is that right?"
If you start there, then both kids' feelings and needs are out on the
table, and that's a good place to start discussing and finding solutions.
Also, I can't find the quote now, but I thought that you said that
your son corrects your daughter because he doesn't think you're doing
a good enough job with your parenting, that you should control and
correct more? Did I remember that right?
If those were your words, I would try to *shift* out of this being a
reflection on your parenting -- it may not be about *you* at all.
Maybe your son just has a need for quiet and control, and having his
sister around all the time, in his home and in his private places, is
really challenging. Maybe he needs lots of opportunity to express how
difficult that is, and to talk and vent about it in a way that doesnt'
hurt your daughter (to you, privately), instead of trying to live up
to a (possibly unrealistic) expectation that he be loving all the time
like he is with people outside of the house.
Peace,
Amy
<sandrewmama@m...> wrote:
==Telling her to hold his hand in the parking lot is one I like him
> chosing but telling her not to sing out loud as we walk down a natureYou might try just reflecting and validating what's going on for both
> path is not.==
children. "Were you worried about her in the parking lot?" (And to
the daughter), "Did you feel like you're old enough to look for cars
on your own?"
Again, on the nature path, "Is the singing bothering you, or do you
just think she shouldn't do it here?" And to your daughter, "You just
feel so happy that you're singing, is that right?"
If you start there, then both kids' feelings and needs are out on the
table, and that's a good place to start discussing and finding solutions.
Also, I can't find the quote now, but I thought that you said that
your son corrects your daughter because he doesn't think you're doing
a good enough job with your parenting, that you should control and
correct more? Did I remember that right?
If those were your words, I would try to *shift* out of this being a
reflection on your parenting -- it may not be about *you* at all.
Maybe your son just has a need for quiet and control, and having his
sister around all the time, in his home and in his private places, is
really challenging. Maybe he needs lots of opportunity to express how
difficult that is, and to talk and vent about it in a way that doesnt'
hurt your daughter (to you, privately), instead of trying to live up
to a (possibly unrealistic) expectation that he be loving all the time
like he is with people outside of the house.
Peace,
Amy
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/05 3:06:48 PM, sandrewmama@... writes:
you're putting that expectation on him.
"I'm praying for your soul" means the same as "Keep doing like you're doing
and you'll burn in hell," though it only SOUNDS nicer. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I hope that Zach will care deeply for his sister even though it's notYou can't help but hope for it, but if you TELL him you're hoping for it,
> his job. I mean, I won't put that expectation on him but I can hope
> for it, model it and work towards that goal, no?
>
>
you're putting that expectation on him.
"I'm praying for your soul" means the same as "Keep doing like you're doing
and you'll burn in hell," though it only SOUNDS nicer. <g>
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/2005 5:50:57 AM Central Standard Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
When we are together, I believe he does think I should be doing more
(telling her not to sing out loud etc.). But, a lot of times whatever
she is doing is just normal seven-year-old fun loving behavior (she
wasn't singing loudly -- she was singing out loud, meaning so we
could hear her but not necessarily scaring animals). When he was her
age, I was much more nit-picky about these kind
~~~
Hey! Maybe he should read "Your 7-year-old" by Ames and Haber. If he's
interested. I wouldn't force him.
When I was in the mood for reading those books, I always read the book ahead
so I could be "prepared". :)
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
When we are together, I believe he does think I should be doing more
(telling her not to sing out loud etc.). But, a lot of times whatever
she is doing is just normal seven-year-old fun loving behavior (she
wasn't singing loudly -- she was singing out loud, meaning so we
could hear her but not necessarily scaring animals). When he was her
age, I was much more nit-picky about these kind
~~~
Hey! Maybe he should read "Your 7-year-old" by Ames and Haber. If he's
interested. I wouldn't force him.
When I was in the mood for reading those books, I always read the book ahead
so I could be "prepared". :)
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/2005 5:50:57 AM Central Standard Time,
sandrewmama@... writes:
He thanked me for explaining it to him and said that now that he
understands why I'm doing things differently he will try harder to
pay attention to the new way and treat his sister more kindly.
~~~
That's wonderful!!!
I hope you make sure that he knows you're changing the way you relate with
HIM, too, and that you want to do better. Give him examples--compare and
contrast how you treated him then and how you will treat him now, as a 14 yo.
Let him know that's not all about her. It might not be obvious to him.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sandrewmama@... writes:
He thanked me for explaining it to him and said that now that he
understands why I'm doing things differently he will try harder to
pay attention to the new way and treat his sister more kindly.
~~~
That's wonderful!!!
I hope you make sure that he knows you're changing the way you relate with
HIM, too, and that you want to do better. Give him examples--compare and
contrast how you treated him then and how you will treat him now, as a 14 yo.
Let him know that's not all about her. It might not be obvious to him.
Karen
www.badchair.net
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Marjorie Kirk
Hey! Maybe he should read "Your 7-year-old" by Ames and Haber. If he's
interested. I wouldn't force him.
When I was in the mood for reading those books, I always read the book
ahead so I could be "prepared". :)
Karen
www.badchair.net
******************************************************************
Karen,
That's a great idea. I had forgotten how I had read selected bits from the
"Your Five-Year-Old" book to my boys when they were going through a phase
where they found their sister to be extremely annoying. They especially
were interested in the section with tips for dealing with five year olds.
Marjorie
interested. I wouldn't force him.
When I was in the mood for reading those books, I always read the book
ahead so I could be "prepared". :)
Karen
www.badchair.net
******************************************************************
Karen,
That's a great idea. I had forgotten how I had read selected bits from the
"Your Five-Year-Old" book to my boys when they were going through a phase
where they found their sister to be extremely annoying. They especially
were interested in the section with tips for dealing with five year olds.
Marjorie
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/24/05 6:01:09 AM, tuckervill2@... writes:
Read aloud the good parts once in an appropriate while if you don't think
he'll read any.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>That is a great idea! Leave it in the bathroom. <g>
> Hey! Maybe he should read "Your 7-year-old" by Ames and Haber. If he's
> interested. I wouldn't force him.
>
>
Read aloud the good parts once in an appropriate while if you don't think
he'll read any.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]