primalmother

Hi all,
I've been a member here since Nov. of 1999, but I rarely
frequent the list. Six kiddos (2-23 y/o) and life keeps me pretty
busy. Anyhow, my 7 y/o is having surgery for his crossed eyes in
May. When we go to the eye doctors I've always had to ask them to
use pictures instead of letters with the check-ups. Sometimes I get
odd looks, but overall the docs have been pretty good about it.
However, they sent us to an optimalogist to see about surgery and the
assistant promptly gave me a folder on dyslexia when I asked for them
to use the pictures during testing. Even the doc recommended
contacting professionals for help. I take everything in stride, but
of course my mother was with us and likes having a potential label
for her non-reading grandchildren (my homeschooling sister's 11 y/o
daughter doesn't read either). She's even buying them reading helps
now, she's so concerned. I don't let it bother me and accept that my
son has a different learning style. He comes right out and tells us
he's not even interested in learning to read. I think its fine and
don't let it bother me, but boy it sure bothers others. I tell my
mother if I went to Japan I'd be a non-reader too...so what. The
info I was given says dyslexia is a language disorder and not a
visual disorder, but it'll be interesting to see what kind of
difference it'll make for my son once he gets his eyes uncrossed. I
have no intentions to get him evaluated for dyslexia. I've been
doing this unschooling thing for to many years to get flustered about
it. What sort of helps have any of you that have children with (so
called) dyslexia used? I'm just wondering if there is some type of
learning supplies or experiences that I haven't thought of, that I
could provide for him that he may find interesting and want to use or
take part in.
Thanks,
Robin

Shields

I have no experience with dyslexia, but I have a 10yo son who was born with
strabismus (crossed eyes). He had surgery at the age of 8 months. With
many, many years of on and off patching and glasses he has just been to the
doctor who declared Ryan doesn't need glasses or patching any more. The
doctor (he is new because we moved last year) was very impressed with our
previous doctor's efforts over the past 10 years. Anyway, just wanted to
let you know that with proper treatment you can have a really good outcome!
We are so happy. We were able to donate his last pair of glasses because
they had been worn only rarely and were in excellent condition. So, good
luck to you and your son! I hope the surgery goes well.

In addition, I wanted to say my son also has mild autism and hasn't used the
alphabetic eye charts (he is still not a reader at age 10), but he does use
the pictures and started to use the E chart recently (you know the one with
fingers up, down, right, left.). We never had anyone emphasize the fact
that Ryan didn't reliably know his letters and couldn't read. Perhaps it
was the autism, but 7 is pretty young for reading anyway.

I would take the dyslexia info politely and then ignore it. Unschooling
will be the best thing you can do for your son.

Good luck!
Kristin

-----Original Message-----
From: primalmother [mailto:primalmother@...]
Hi all,
I've been a member here since Nov. of 1999, but I rarely
frequent the list. Six kiddos (2-23 y/o) and life keeps me pretty
busy. Anyhow, my 7 y/o is having surgery for his crossed eyes in
May. When we go to the eye doctors I've always had to ask them to
use pictures instead of letters with the check-ups. Sometimes I get
odd looks, but overall the docs have been pretty good about it.
However, they sent us to an optimalogist to see about surgery and the
assistant promptly gave me a folder on dyslexia when I asked for them
to use the pictures during testing. Even the doc recommended
contacting professionals for help. I take everything in stride, but
of course my mother was with us and likes having a potential label
for her non-reading grandchildren (my homeschooling sister's 11 y/o
daughter doesn't read either). She's even buying them reading helps
now, she's so concerned. I don't let it bother me and accept that my
son has a different learning style. He comes right out and tells us
he's not even interested in learning to read. I think its fine and
don't let it bother me, but boy it sure bothers others. I tell my
mother if I went to Japan I'd be a non-reader too...so what. The
info I was given says dyslexia is a language disorder and not a
visual disorder, but it'll be interesting to see what kind of
difference it'll make for my son once he gets his eyes uncrossed. I
have no intentions to get him evaluated for dyslexia. I've been
doing this unschooling thing for to many years to get flustered about
it. What sort of helps have any of you that have children with (so
called) dyslexia used? I'm just wondering if there is some type of
learning supplies or experiences that I haven't thought of, that I
could provide for him that he may find interesting and want to use or
take part in.
Thanks,
Robin

primalmother

Thanks Kristin,
We're looking forward to a good outcome with this surgery too.
I'm so glad to hear that your son has done well with it and is no
longer in glasses.
Robin

--- In [email protected], "Shields"
<shields@o...> wrote:
> I have no experience with dyslexia, but I have a 10yo son who was
born with
> strabismus (crossed eyes). He had surgery at the age of 8 months.
With
> many, many years of on and off patching and glasses he has just
been to the
> doctor who declared Ryan doesn't need glasses or patching any
more. The
> doctor (he is new because we moved last year) was very impressed
with our
> previous doctor's efforts over the past 10 years. Anyway, just
wanted to
> let you know that with proper treatment you can have a really good
outcome!
> We are so happy. We were able to donate his last pair of glasses
because
> they had been worn only rarely and were in excellent condition.
So, good
> luck to you and your son! I hope the surgery goes well.
>
> In addition, I wanted to say my son also has mild autism and hasn't
used the
> alphabetic eye charts (he is still not a reader at age 10), but he
does use
> the pictures and started to use the E chart recently (you know the
one with
> fingers up, down, right, left.). We never had anyone emphasize the
fact
> that Ryan didn't reliably know his letters and couldn't read.
Perhaps it
> was the autism, but 7 is pretty young for reading anyway.
>
> I would take the dyslexia info politely and then ignore it.
Unschooling
> will be the best thing you can do for your son.
>
> Good luck!
> Kristin

terran1122

While I have several friends with dyslexia, only two have told me of things
they've used successfully to fend it off.

One never learned to read properly, partly from problems with the dyslexia,
until she went to Germany with her now ex-husband and learned German.
Since then, she was able to go back and re-learn English, though she admits
sometimes she kind of has to think it in German then translate it into English.

Another friend has to read constantly (whatever, where-ever she is), or else
her ability to read just sort of... falters, and she has to work to get back up to
the level she was at before.

- Both are fluent in 2+ languages, too.

I've never read anything about it - in fact, the stuff pushed at various people
I've known whose kids were labeled dyslexic never mentioned either of these
techniques. But it works, at least insofar as non-pictographic languages are
concerned. I'll let you know if I notice anything as I continue to try to foster
Cantonese and Mandarin, with the written Chinese, in my children (so they
can communicate with all their relatives on daddy's side).



Good luck!

Cynthia

--- In [email protected], "primalmother" <
primalmother@y...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I've been a member here since Nov. of 1999, but I rarely
> frequent the list. Six kiddos (2-23 y/o) and life keeps me pretty
> busy. Anyhow, my 7 y/o is having surgery for his crossed eyes in
> May. When we go to the eye doctors I've always had to ask them to
> use pictures instead of letters with the check-ups. Sometimes I get
> odd looks, but overall the docs have been pretty good about it.
> However, they sent us to an optimalogist to see about surgery and the
> assistant promptly gave me a folder on dyslexia when I asked for them
> to use the pictures during testing. Even the doc recommended
> contacting professionals for help. I take everything in stride, but
> of course my mother was with us and likes having a potential label
> for her non-reading grandchildren (my homeschooling sister's 11 y/o
> daughter doesn't read either). She's even buying them reading helps
> now, she's so concerned. I don't let it bother me and accept that my
> son has a different learning style. He comes right out and tells us
> he's not even interested in learning to read. I think its fine and
> don't let it bother me, but boy it sure bothers others. I tell my
> mother if I went to Japan I'd be a non-reader too...so what. The
> info I was given says dyslexia is a language disorder and not a
> visual disorder, but it'll be interesting to see what kind of
> difference it'll make for my son once he gets his eyes uncrossed. I
> have no intentions to get him evaluated for dyslexia. I've been
> doing this unschooling thing for to many years to get flustered about
> it. What sort of helps have any of you that have children with (so
> called) dyslexia used? I'm just wondering if there is some type of
> learning supplies or experiences that I haven't thought of, that I
> could provide for him that he may find interesting and want to use or
> take part in.
> Thanks,
> Robin

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/20/2005 9:05:57 PM Central Standard Time,
primalmother@... writes:

Anyhow, my 7 y/o is having surgery for his crossed eyes in
May. When we go to the eye doctors I've always had to ask them to
use pictures instead of letters with the check-ups. Sometimes I get
odd looks, but overall the docs have been pretty good about it.
However, they sent us to an optimalogist to see about surgery and the
assistant promptly gave me a folder on dyslexia when I asked for them
to use the pictures during testing.


~~~

Sheesh, he's only SEVEN. What's wrong with these people?

Karen

www.badchair.net


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/21/2005 8:46:42 AM Mountain Standard Time,
nasafellow@... writes:

One never learned to read properly, partly from problems with the dyslexia,
until she went to Germany with her now ex-husband and learned German.
Since then, she was able to go back and re-learn English, though she admits
sometimes she kind of has to think it in German then translate it into
English.


----------

It seems, though, that she just didn't have any trauma associated with
learning to read German. And she was older.

Unschoolers can learn to read without trauma and when they're older. It
doesn't have to be a second language, just needs to be without the
school-supplied deadlines by age, and shaming and pressure.

Also, unschoolers' kids are reading "later," perhaps, but they're reading
real, live, wild, honest language rather than carefully programmed "beginner"
stuff. When first graders are told they are reading, and are getting A's in
reading, and bringing something home to read aloud, that seems like a big
deal, but hand one the current issue of Time or Newsweek, and you'll find out he
can't "really" read.

It's just really different, to wait until a child has all the elements in
place in his own mind to figure out reading for himself. "Properly" means
functionally for that person. Different people read in different ways, and
there's no getting around that.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

bunsofaluminum

do you remember the tv ads for Hooked on Phonics, showing a three
year old reading a high school science text or some such. Maybe it
was an owner's manual for a VCR. L and just how much comprehension
was the child experiencing? sheesh.

not to mention the strain on little kids' eyes, from reading so
young.

blessings, heidiC



--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/21/2005 8:46:42 AM Mountain Standard Time,
> nasafellow@c... writes:
>
> One never learned to read properly, partly from problems with the
dyslexia,
> until she went to Germany with her now ex-husband and learned
German.
> Since then, she was able to go back and re-learn English, though
she admits
> sometimes she kind of has to think it in German then translate it
into
> English.
>
>
> ----------
>
> It seems, though, that she just didn't have any trauma associated
with
> learning to read German. And she was older.
>
> Unschoolers can learn to read without trauma and when they're
older. It
> doesn't have to be a second language, just needs to be without the
> school-supplied deadlines by age, and shaming and pressure.
>
> Also, unschoolers' kids are reading "later," perhaps, but they're
reading
> real, live, wild, honest language rather than carefully
programmed "beginner"
> stuff. When first graders are told they are reading, and are
getting A's in
> reading, and bringing something home to read aloud, that seems like
a big
> deal, but hand one the current issue of Time or Newsweek, and
you'll find out he
> can't "really" read.
>
> It's just really different, to wait until a child has all the
elements in
> place in his own mind to figure out reading for
himself. "Properly" means
> functionally for that person. Different people read in different
ways, and
> there's no getting around that.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dana Matt

> do you remember the tv ads for Hooked on Phonics,
> showing a three
> year old reading a high school science text or some
> such. Maybe it
> was an owner's manual for a VCR. L and just how much
> comprehension
> was the child experiencing? sheesh.
>
> not to mention the strain on little kids' eyes, from
> reading so
> young.

My little one did this (without Hooked on Phonics, of
course ;)--When nursing, without my knowledge--I would
be reading a book and nursing him, and he would say
"Oh, wait, don't turn the page yet!".....LOL Then
there would be the "Mom, what does "decapitate" mean?"
It was a time to stop reading cut-em-up books for a
while ;)
Dana

Guadalupe's Coffee Roaster
100% Organic Fair Trade Coffee
Roasted to Perfection Daily
http://www.guadalupescoffee.com



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/

Ruth

Hi Robin

My dh has dyslexia and had no help.He reads well but spells badly. He got a job he loves lol. It was not the end of the world for him. He is brill at maths and has engineering skills. I have two dd's with dyslexia ( some children with dyslexia find sequencing and some maths hard)- both read now - one took til she was 11 but is great now. She, at 12, just past a diploma in homeopathy cos she wanted to do it. School wrote her off at 6. She did not read in school and only started when unschooled. The other reads well - she is 10 and writes well when she feels like it.

Youngest son aged 6 seems to be similar to dh and dh is also colour blind. He can read tho quite well for a 6 year old unschooler. It is not something I have bothered with at his age. Some opthamologists here ( UK) give overlays to help reading but it is only with certain types of dyslexia. None of my children have had it. None of them have had any special treatment. I suppose I am saying they get there in the end.

Ruth


____________________________________________________________________________
This email and all attachments have been electronically scanned by Kingston
Communications' email Anti-Virus service and no known viruses were detected.
____________________________________________________________________________



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ruth

My little one did this (without Hooked on Phonics, of
course ;)--When nursing, without my knowledge--I would
be reading a book and nursing him, and he would say
"Oh, wait, don't turn the page yet!".....LOL Then
there would be the "Mom, what does "decapitate" mean?"
It was a time to stop reading cut-em-up books for a
while ;)
That made me smile.

Ruth

____________________________________________________________________________
This email and all attachments have been electronically scanned by Kingston
Communications' email Anti-Virus service and no known viruses were detected.
____________________________________________________________________________



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

primalmother

I find this interesting that your friend had an easier time learning
to read with another language. What is her nationality by chance?
It makes me wonder if our brains may be hard-wired to a particular
language inherited through our genetic make-up??? Than again, my son
came up to me yesterday and played a page from the Learning Leap Frog
that his Grandma got him. It was in Spanish and he said he wanted to
learn it. That's the first time he's really mentioned he wanted to
learn something related to reading and language. I wonder if I
exposed him to other languages, if he'd still pick Spanish or some
other language over it or English. My youngest daughter (16) also
said she wanted to learn Chinese when she was very young, but of
course I was to busy making sure she could read and write in English
to accomadate her. With that said my background is of German/French
descent and my husband is of Swiss/German/Irish. I would think with
our backgrounds, he may prefer German like your friend. Who knows
maybe I'm off here.
Thanks for sharing,
Robin

--- In [email protected], "terran1122"
<nasafellow@c...> wrote:
>
> While I have several friends with dyslexia, only two have told me
of things
> they've used successfully to fend it off.
>
> One never learned to read properly, partly from problems with the
dyslexia,
> until she went to Germany with her now ex-husband and learned
German.
> Since then, she was able to go back and re-learn English, though
she admits
> sometimes she kind of has to think it in German then translate it
into English.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: primalmother <primalmother@...>




I find this interesting that your friend had an easier time learning
to read with another language. What is her nationality by chance?
It makes me wonder if our brains may be hard-wired to a particular
language inherited through our genetic make-up??? -=-=-=-=-

Naw. I don't think so. I think some people have an easier time working
with other languages. I do. It might be genetic---but not *for* a certain
language---and neither of my parents is bilingual. I'm Scottish all the
way back, both sides. I'm fluent in German. I can understand and read Spanish,
but speaking is poor. I can read French, and I remember a handful of words
(animals, parts of the body, simple phrases). My Italian is limited to "menu Italian" <g>
I still have a pretty good handle on Latin, and I still know most of the Greek
letters and sounds---but I've forgotten almost ALL the ancient Greek I learned.

I have a friend, Izumi Shiraishi-Cantley, who is Japanese. She learned
English by coming to the US and studying at Randolph-Macon. Decided to learn
German and then went to Germany and Austria with me. While at the
University of Vienna with me, she learned French.

My friend Hugh McGlinchy did the same: German in Vienna with me,
then on to Wales to learn Welsh. Had such a good time that he went to
Japan---married a Taiwanese woman and now knows Chinese! He's
taught English to the locals in Japan and Taiwan for years.

So I think it's a Howard Gardner thang. Some are good,
some are not, and some have to work at it. But I really don't
think we are "programmed" to learn the languages of our origins! <g>~Kelly


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

primalmother

Ok, Sandra your reply makes sense, if in fact she experienced trauma
in trying to learn to read the English language. However, if she was
born and raised in the USA she would've been exposed to English
everywhere, even in a non-learning enviroment (i.e., outside of
school). You simply can't get away from it, English is everywhere.
We are immersed in it. Yet, she has to 'think' in German to
translate into English. That is amazing! She didn't grow up being
exposed to German on a daily basis and yet she has to 'think' in
German to get English. They say Dyslexia is a language barrier. My
son has had zero pressure to learn to read. The only pressure is
occasionally directed towards me from others. He is not traumatized
by the English language whatsoever. He is immersed in it, but yet
right now he finds Spanish more appealing. My sister's daughter is
11 y/o and I know she has had no pressure to learn to read. If there
is any pressure it is from my mother towards my sister to do
something. I trust that she'll read when she is ready, just as I do
with my son. Yet, it took her friend into her adult years until she
learned German on her own. For some reason, whether it was trauma or
not, her brain related to German and she finally had all the elements
she needed in place to learned how to read. On the other hand, her
other friend has to continually work at it or she regresses. Could
it be that some element is still missing for her, even though she
knows other languages? Sure, she is reading and knows other
languages, but even as an adult she still struggles. She couldn't
have experienced trauma with all the languages that she knows, could
she? I don't know if she has trouble only with English or the other
languages she knows as well. I don't know much about dyslexia, but
it seems to me that trauma can't be the cause of it. The other gal
from the UK who responded would probably tell you her girls were not
traumatized either. A response from her in this regard would be
helpful. It makes me interested in reading that book recommended
here now, because maybe I'm missing something. Like I said, I may be
off here, but I find the learning of other languages an intriguing
possibility, perhaps its finding the right one that relates to our
genetic make-up?
Robin

--- In [email protected], SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/21/2005 8:46:42 AM Mountain Standard Time,
> nasafellow@c... writes:
>
> One never learned to read properly, partly from problems with the
dyslexia,
> until she went to Germany with her now ex-husband and learned
German.
> Since then, she was able to go back and re-learn English, though
she admits
> sometimes she kind of has to think it in German then translate it
into
> English.
>
>
> ----------
>
> It seems, though, that she just didn't have any trauma associated
with
> learning to read German. And she was older.
>
> Unschoolers can learn to read without trauma and when they're
older. It
> doesn't have to be a second language, just needs to be without the
> school-supplied deadlines by age, and shaming and pressure.
>
> Also, unschoolers' kids are reading "later," perhaps, but they're
reading
> real, live, wild, honest language rather than carefully
programmed "beginner"
> stuff. When first graders are told they are reading, and are
getting A's in
> reading, and bringing something home to read aloud, that seems like
a big
> deal, but hand one the current issue of Time or Newsweek, and
you'll find out he
> can't "really" read.
>
> It's just really different, to wait until a child has all the
elements in
> place in his own mind to figure out reading for
himself. "Properly" means
> functionally for that person. Different people read in different
ways, and
> there's no getting around that.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

primalmother

Wow Kelly, you seem to know your share of languages. Ok, so maybe we
aren't "programmed" to learn the languages of our origins, but the
possiblity of genetics may still be something to consider. One
language or the other may strike a cord and boom that person can
think in that language and now read. Like I said, I've been told
that dyslexia is a language barrier. On the other hand, perhaps
there is a recessive gene there or something? I'm taking some art
classes at the community college and one of my instructors was
telling me of a student that was black. However, when this student's
parents came to an art show to see her work the instructor was
surprised to see that both of her parents were white. A recessive
gene from somewhere back in her bloodline came forward. How do we
know that that same possibility can't be related to dyslexia? I
know, I'm throwing out far out possibilities here. I just find it
intriguing that someone who is immersed in a language all of their
life has to think in another language learned as an adult in order to
read the language they grew up with. I guess I need to shut up and
get that book, since I don't know what I'm talking about. :)
Robin

> Naw. I don't think so. I think some people have an easier time
working
> with other languages. I do. It might be genetic---but not *for* a
certain
> language---So I think it's a Howard Gardner thang. Some are good,
> some are not, and some have to work at it. But I really don't
> think we are "programmed" to learn the languages of our origins!
<g>~Kelly

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< if she was
born and raised in the USA she would've been exposed to English
everywhere, even in a non-learning enviroment (i.e., outside of
school). >>>>

This seems an odd idea to express on an Unschooling list. Many of us
consider school to be the foremost non-learning environment. ;) However,
seriously, pretty much all of us consider outside of school the best
possible *learning* environment.

I guess you meant "non-teaching" environment.

Robyn L. Coburn


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/05 6:36:32 AM, primalmother@... writes:

<< It makes me wonder if our brains may be hard-wired to a particular

language inherited through our genetic make-up??? >>

It's harder to learn to read as a child than as an adult.

It's harder to learn to read when one doesn't WANT to or has no personal
interest than if one is enthusiastically eager to read.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/05 7:45:50 AM, primalmother@... writes:

<< Like I said, I may be

off here, but I find the learning of other languages an intriguing

possibility, perhaps its finding the right one that relates to our

genetic make-up? >>

This isn't the list to discuss issues of racial memory; sorry.
There are places, but they're not very nice.

Sandra

Deb Lewis

***One never learned to read properly,***

So, she could read some things?
And she could speak and communicate?

***until she went to Germany with her now ex-husband and learned
German.***

I think, just like some people don't really understand math until they're
building a fence or making a picnic table, some people only start reading
well when they're reading for their own reasons.

It makes sense from an unschooling point of view.

***Another friend has to read constantly (whatever, where-ever she
is),***

That must be hard in the shower. And while she's sleeping. And talking
to someone.

But I read when I'm driving (signs) and I read while I'm eating (Silk
box, cereal box, cookie label) and I read when I'm reading, and I read a
few hours a day (e-mail, CNN blurbs, newspapers, magazines, recipes,
instructions for gizmos, Stephen King...) Is that what you're calling
"constantly"? I think most people do that.

***or else her ability to read just sort of... falters, and she has to
work to get back up to
the level she was at before.***

Sounds hormonal. My friend Sue says soy helps that. I recommend
chocolate. *And* now you can get soy chocolate so your friend could read
the ingredients list and see if it's working or not. <g>

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/05 8:09:23 AM, primalmother@... writes:

<< However, when this student's

parents came to an art show to see her work the instructor was

surprised to see that both of her parents were white. A recessive

gene from somewhere back in her bloodline came forward. How do we

know that that same possibility can't be related to dyslexia? >>

Did you consider adoption or that one of the parents was a stepparent?

Sure, left-handedness (often associated with dyslexia) can come in a child of
two right-handed parents.

Dyslexia is discussed at GREAT length elsewhere on the internet, yahoogroups,
message boards. I don't think it's helpful to unschoolers to worry about it
too much.

When children are given leeway and encouragement and resources to learn
things at their own pace in their own way, then it's not important for the parents
to label and change the type of opportunity and resource because of something
SO minor and normal as the traits schools label ADHD and dyslexia.

Schools get more money and hire specialists when they have labelled kids.
Schools blame "disease" for their own failure when they label kids.


Neither of those factors plays into unschooling in the least, and the purpose
of this list is to help people move toward an understanding of unschooling.

Sandra

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
> So I think it's a Howard Gardner thang. Some are good,
> some are not, and some have to work at it. But I really don't
> think we are "programmed" to learn the languages of our origins!
<g>~Kelly

I'm mildly dyslexic and learning German was really easy for me and
helped me with English grammar, but I'm not sure why!

Well, part of it is that German is very regular, which makes spelling
sooo much easier. If you know how the word is pronounced, you can
spell it, unlike English. If I lived in Germany and spoke/wrote only
German for a few years, I wouldn't have the same issues with spelling
as I do on a daily basis with this English language. Like just now
when I had to check my spelling of dyslexic 3 times before I figured
out what letter was missing.

Maybe it was also how I learned it--in 7-10 grades, in much clearer
terms than in English grammar classes, without hearing non-standard
German speech in daily life. I think it was mostly because we had a
really crappy English grammar book that we used every year, so again,
it could be very personal reasons having nothing to do with
dyslexia...

--aj

bunsofaluminum

I think that's a huge piece of the case you-uns describe: Her
neurological pathways weren't ready, up until she hit the age where
she happened to be in Germany. She "finally had all the elements she
needed"

That's what i keep telling myself w/my late starting reader.

Just to stop the panic. ;)

blessings, HeidiC

Yet, it took her friend into her adult years until she
> learned German on her own. For some reason, whether it was trauma
or
> not, her brain related to German and she finally had all the
elements
> she needed in place to learned how to read.

Elizabeth Hill

**

Well, part of it is that German is very regular, which makes spelling
sooo much easier. If you know how the word is pronounced, you can
spell it, unlike English.**

Yes! I've been playing around with Spanish and the correspondence between spelling and pronunciation seems completely regular. In comparison, the inconsistent complexity of English seems like a cruel thing to inflict on a beginner. (Just my opinion.)

Betsy

nellebelle

>>>>>>It makes me wonder if our brains may be hard-wired to a particular
language inherited through our genetic make-up???>>>>>>


It is said that babies come equipped to make the sounds for any language in the world. They will mimic the sounds they hear. That is why babies learn to speak the language of the family they live in.

Mary Ellen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/22/05 9:34:24 AM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< In comparison, the inconsistent complexity of English seems like a cruel
thing to inflict on a beginner. (Just my opinion.) >>

It is. Written English is like a cool antique store filled to the rafters
with fascinating old stuff, whereas many other languages are like sleek
clutter-free offices with great lighting.

Sandra

Cynthia Lee

Hi, all~

It seems my quick post needs a little clarifying, so here goes (warning,
it's long).

I was discussing it again with my friend who has to read constantly -
and by constantly I mean all the time when she's awake, whatever she
glances at she's got to read, or at least scan, or she has to work at it
again.

She confirmed what I was remembering: dyslexia is a neurological
disorder, affecting the parts of the brain that handle language. And
while yes, English, especially the "American" dialect, is a nasty thing
to inflict on younglings, it isn't the culprit here. From what I've
learned about how the brain works (over the last 20+ years), it would
seem to me that adding additional languages to the mix would
automatically encourage not only the continual addition of neurological
connections, but also do so across more areas of the brain - including
across both hemispheres. This wider network would allow for more
redundancy, thus helping someone combat the neurological disorder that
is dyslexia (where the working of the neuro-network is screwy, for some
reason).

I suspect no two cases of dyslexia are identical, so one can take heart
in another thing my friend found out, during her college years - a
professor pointed out that she consistently made the *same sets* of
mistakes, almost as if her brain had certain ciphers, or codes, that it
used. So, adding in that another part - of her disorder? her specific
neurology? they don't know - is that, once having identified the sets of
mistakes she routinely makes (due to the disorder), she can predict
them, and also use that knowledge to edit what she writes, and even what
she says. I've had her do the latter in conversations with her, where
she catches herself, corrects the mistake, and we go on.

No biggie, really. But she does suspect that that disorder had a hand
in her only really being able to 'read' read by around 5.5-6 yrs of
age. ('read' read = complex stuff, not the "See Jim run" kind of stuff.)

[Just fyi, here, but I don't know when I learned to read (I do know that
it was "read" reading, not just kiddie stuff, because that's what I was
interested in as well as exposed to) - but it wasn't until I was 4 that
my handwriting and knowledge of how to spell my name well enough
combined so I could sign-to-get my first library card. Gosh, that's such
a neat, and empowering, memory!]

The other friend did speak and (with limited ability) read English as a
child. Things just never really worked properly until her brain added
German, too. And she doesn't *always have to* re-route into and out of
German - just when she gets stuck or "stumbles" in English. I have to
say, though, it's really cute when she spouts off in German to my kids!
They're used to English and various dialects of Chinese, even Japanese
(we're big into quality Anime, here, especially stuff from Studio
Ghibli), so they look at her like she's suddenly shown that she's an
alien from another planet - then they relax and look at her like she's a
likeable, but really weird, person. <chuckle>

BTW, I'm thinking of getting a copy of that book, myself - it sounds
really interesting.

But as far as any type of schooling goes - whether "un" or not - I
suspect that it is really up to us as parents to keep close track of the
patterns our children show and share with us. I know when I was oh,
maybe from 3-10, I had to keep track of whether I wrote a "b" or a "d,"
rather than switching them. It was strictly a written problem, not a
verbal or reading one; but my Mom was the one who pointed it out to me,
and helped me keep track of it until I showed her that I was responsible
on this issue, too.

So I'd try to keep track of the problems, and see if there are any
patterns. The brain is so complex we'll still be studying it for
centuries before there's any kind of "guidebook" to how it works, so
just keep track of patterns and use them for a corrective guide, I'd say.

Oh, and as far as I know, while they've just "discovered" that humans
still add neurological connections throughout life (**explaining the
people who facilitate languages easily), the vast majority of the
language sets are hardwired into babies before they are a year old. It
might be by 8-10 months, I can't remember exactly. After that, they're
brains are programmed to easily work with that native language or
languages, and additional ones are going to have to be worked at.
That's a big reason I've been trying to expose my children to Cantonese
and Mandarin - I want them to be able to add the more difficult stuff as
I can provide it to them, knowing that they've already gotten the early
hard-wiring done. That's why there are so many multi-lingual baby
learning toys. And it's supposed to add a better ability for other
skills, like math, later on.

And this isn't the only stuff that gets hardwired early, either. For
example: According to lots of studies done, language skills start
deteriorating between the ages of about 8-12, so if you've not gotten it
in by then, you've got more work to do to garner the same quality of
skill-sets. On the other hand, learning is always interrupted by major
hormonal changes, especially around growth spurts, so that adds more
twists and turns to the whole thing.

But none of that kind of stuff is affected by racial differences. Maybe
by cultural ones, since that's how we're raised (the whole 'nature vs.
nurture' thing), but when it comes down to how we function, it's pretty
much that we're all just... human.

**Oh, and the people who learn lots of languages easily as an adult?
Beyond an individual's inherent ability to learn that kind of stuff
well, the basis of language is really all about ciphering - codes. The
more languages you learn, the more you see how the codes work, and the
more able you are to pick up on the similarities in how the language
codes are structured. That's why people who are good at languages are
usually also good with math and music - they're languages, too.

Well, I'm pretty new to the list, and this whole thread has kind of
gotten hi-jacked, so I'll be off the board for a while. But I'll be
happy to continue this stuff - or other stuff - via personal email, if
anybody wants to do so.

Be Well!

Cynthia :)


On Tuesday, March 22, 2005, at 09:01 AM, primalmother wrote:

>
> Wow Kelly, you seem to know your share of languages.� Ok, so maybe we
> aren't "programmed" to learn the languages of our origins, but the
> possiblity of genetics may still be something to consider.� One
> language or the other may strike a cord and boom that person can
> think in that language and now read.� Like I said, I've been told
> that dyslexia is a language barrier.� On the other hand, perhaps
> there is a recessive gene there or something?� I'm taking some art
> classes at the community college and one of my instructors was
> telling me of a student that was black.� However, when this student's
> parents came to an art show to see her work the instructor was
> surprised to see that both of her parents were white.� A recessive
> gene from somewhere back in her bloodline came forward.� How do we
> know that that same possibility can't be related to dyslexia?� I
> know, I'm throwing out far out possibilities here.� I just find it
> intriguing that someone who is immersed in a language all of their
> life has to think in another language learned as an adult in order to
> read the language they grew up with.� I guess I need to shut up and
> get that book, since I don't know what I'm talking about. :)
> Robin
>
> > Naw. I don't think so. I think some people have an easier time
> working
> > with other languages. I do. It might be genetic---but not *for* a
> certain
> > language---So I think it's a Howard Gardner thang. Some are good,
> > some are not, and some have to work at it. But I really don't
> > think we are "programmed" to learn the languages of our origins!
> <g>~Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards:
> http://www.unschooling.com
>
>

>
>

>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> � To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UnschoolingDiscussion/
> �
> � To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> �
> � Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Mar 22, 2005, at 12:53 PM, Cynthia Lee wrote:

> I
> suspect that it is really up to us as parents to keep close track of
> the
> patterns our children show and share with us. I know when I was oh,
> maybe from 3-10, I had to keep track of whether I wrote a "b" or a "d,"
> rather than switching them. It was strictly a written problem, not a
> verbal or reading one; but my Mom was the one who pointed it out to me,
> and helped me keep track of it until I showed her that I was
> responsible
> on this issue, too.

I think this sends a message that unless we point out mistakes kids are
making that they won't self correct.

There are times when pointing something out will be helpful and
appreciated. But I think there are far more times it's best not to say
anything and let them figure it out themselves.

*When* to point and when to keep silent is tricky, of course. Sometimes
it helps if we ask ourselves if we'd point it out to a friend. But that
assumes the friend has made a mistake and wants to correct it. A child
who is reversing letters isn't doing it because they're making
mistakes. Their brain just isn't ready to pin letters down to facing
one direction ;-) My daughter reversed several letters and numbers for
quite a while (until she was 10 maybe?) and now at 13 never does. I
could have pointed them out repeatedly to her but to what effect? What
if the pointing had corrected her reversals when she was 7? What
advantage would that have been to her? And what price would she have
paid for that?

> That's a big reason I've been trying to expose my children to Cantonese
> and Mandarin - I want them to be able to add the more difficult stuff
> as
> I can provide it to them, knowing that they've already gotten the early
> hard-wiring done.

Which is the foundation that school is built on: give them what they
might need so that it won't be as hard for them to acquire it if they
need it in the future.

Unschooling advice is to give them what they want and need now and that
will prepare them to do what they want to do in the future.

Living today as a 4 yo is what prepares someone to be a 5 yo. We don't
need to do anything special to prepare them. All we need to do is give
them what they need today and they can handle tomorrow. And it builds
day by day until they become perfectly competent 5 yos.

If a child is interested in Chinese then an unschooling mom should do
what she can to help a child explore that.

But it won't help someone unschool better to try expose a child to
Chinese *because* it might help them in the future.

Joyce

primalmother

Yes, you are correct I mis-spoke.

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> <<<<< if she was
> born and raised in the USA she would've been exposed to English
> everywhere, even in a non-learning enviroment (i.e., outside of
> school). >>>>
>
> This seems an odd idea to express on an Unschooling list. Many of us
> consider school to be the foremost non-learning environment. ;)
However,
> seriously, pretty much all of us consider outside of school the best
> possible *learning* environment.
>
> I guess you meant "non-teaching" environment.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.7.4 - Release Date: 3/18/2005

primalmother

> Did you consider adoption or that one of the parents was a
stepparent?

*No, they were her biological parents.

>
> Sure, left-handedness (often associated with dyslexia) can come in
a child of
> two right-handed parents.
>
> Dyslexia is discussed at GREAT length elsewhere on the internet,
yahoogroups,
> message boards. I don't think it's helpful to unschoolers to worry
about it
> too much.

*I don't worry about it, but as an unschooler we don't have to be
blind and ignore these topics. Other sites on dyslexia won't have an
unschooler's prespective.
>
> When children are given leeway and encouragement and resources to
learn
> things at their own pace in their own way, then it's not important
for the parents
> to label and change the type of opportunity and resource because of
something
> SO minor and normal as the traits schools label ADHD and
dyslexia.
>

*I agree and all I was asking for was resources I may not know about
that I can offer to my son (see the end of my first post). If he
chooses to use them it is up to him.

> Schools get more money and hire specialists when they have labelled
kids.
> Schools blame "disease" for their own failure when they label kids.

*I understand this. Yet, there are those that even reach adulthhood
that still don't have the reading skills or struggle with it.

> Neither of those factors plays into unschooling in the least, and
the purpose
> of this list is to help people move toward an understanding of
unschooling.

*Sorry, I don't see how this doesn't relate to unschooling. We
should take interest in giving our children the resources they may
want or need that will help them with any given situation.
>
Robin

primalmother

> Did you consider adoption or that one of the parents was a
stepparent?

*No, they were her biological parents.

>
> Sure, left-handedness (often associated with dyslexia) can come in
a child of
> two right-handed parents.
>
> Dyslexia is discussed at GREAT length elsewhere on the internet,
yahoogroups,
> message boards. I don't think it's helpful to unschoolers to worry
about it
> too much.

*I don't worry about it, but as an unschooler we don't have to be
blind and ignore these topics. Other sites on dyslexia won't have an
unschooler's prespective.
>
> When children are given leeway and encouragement and resources to
learn
> things at their own pace in their own way, then it's not important
for the parents
> to label and change the type of opportunity and resource because of
something
> SO minor and normal as the traits schools label ADHD and
dyslexia.
>

*I agree and all I was asking for was resources I may not know about
that I can offer to my son (see the end of my first post). If he
chooses to use them it is up to him.

> Schools get more money and hire specialists when they have labelled
kids.
> Schools blame "disease" for their own failure when they label kids.

*I understand this. Yet, there are those that even reach adulthhood
that still don't have the reading skills or struggle with it.

> Neither of those factors plays into unschooling in the least, and
the purpose
> of this list is to help people move toward an understanding of
unschooling.

*Sorry, I don't see how this doesn't relate to unschooling. We
should take interest in giving our children the resources they may
want or need that will help them with any given situation.
>
Robin

primalmother

Thanks Cynthia, I found your post extremely helpful!!
Robin

--- In [email protected], Cynthia Lee
<nasafellow@c...> wrote:
> Hi, all~
>
> It seems my quick post needs a little clarifying, so here goes
(warning,
> it's long).