[email protected]

In a message dated 10/9/04 7:55:07 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< What can we suggest to people who might move towards unschooling that

will help them bypass fear or transcend it or dismiss it? (Or vaporize

it with laughter like a bogart in the Harry Potter books.) >>

We're several layers from mainstream, so that's a lot of fear to laugh away.

I've wished for years there were some way to screen out people who just
aren't going to overcome fear, or be creative or flexible enough to unschool.
Because the people who get angry at the advice seem often to be saying that the
wish the advice had never been there. Yet for every one of them there are five
or ten who are THRILLED that the ideas were available, and who are able to
see and try them right away.

-=-(Maybe this is too hypothetical, since I'm not really talking about a

specific person.)-=-

But if there are even groups or types of people to whom participants here
have seen it apply it's still personal experience.

-=-Desensitisation and experience are starting points to deal with fear of

the unknown, I think. -=-

When people remember their own childhood experiences in light of the idea
that maybe it COULD have been different, and then they gather experiences with
their children, then they have something to laugh the bogarts away with. Before
that, they would be faking it. Pretending to laugh at a monster is probably
scarier than just being quietly and privately scared.

Sandra

Kelly Ferry

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 11:13:54 EDT, sandradodd@... <sandradodd@...> wrote:
>
>
> When people remember their own childhood experiences in light of the idea
> that maybe it COULD have been different, and then they gather experiences with
> their children, then they have something to laugh the bogarts away with. Before
> that, they would be faking it. Pretending to laugh at a monster is probably
> scarier than just being quietly and privately scared.
>
> Sandra


I'm getting tired of being quietly and privately scared while putting
on a big, fake smile to the world about our homeschooling. I'm deeply
afraid. I don't tell anyone we're unschooling. I'm terrified of the
anger that runs in me--anger at myself, my past, a few judgemental
people around us, Tyler who is becoming a teenager. I'm shaking in my
shoes because of the fight that is so often between the two of us.

We have a lot of deschooling to do as he spent 6 yrs in the system. I
read the posts on this list and am always encouraged to continue to
look into my own past, to look at my habits, to work on changing them
with healthier, more respectful ones.

But there's a sneer in my voice too often. Too many times I have to go
back and apologize and try to say it another way. Too many days I feel
thwarted and put out and unheard and so afraid that I'm making a huge
mistake with him, that everyone who keeps telling me that he needs
structure and a rigid routine or he'll get lost is right. That my
instincts to protect his creative spirit is off-base and taking him
out of school is going to ruin his chances of any kind of a productive
future.

So I keep coming back to this list, and I keep talking to other
unschoolers who remind me that they once felt the way that I
feel--lost and unqualified--while completely accountable.

I've realized this week that part of my anger is jealousy. What an
ugly thing to see inside of myself. To know that I feel envious of my
son's opportunity to pull out of a system that was teaching him to be
a static person--the system that taught me the same thing. I have this
frozen inaction problem, and it was building in him. I have years and
years of training to break through and he might actually have a chance
to find his voice and his song.

So I'll work on that again today, on turning the envy into gratitude.
Gratitude for the chance to help clear the way as much as I can.
Gratitude for the daily lessons that parenting brings me, with this
whole new layer of unschooling that has been mining some very old
stuff out of me, bringing it all to the surface.

I'm definitely not laughing yet, but I am appreciating the joy and
whimsy I hear from so many people who are living the unschooling
life-it's a light at the end of this tunnel we're travelling in for
right now. Ocassionally that light reflects off of some small moment
in our day and we know that we can be part of it too. In the meantime,
I'm trying to find the courage to continue looking at all of the
things that are in the shadows.

Kelly

>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Julie Bogart

Kelly, good for you! I'm impressed with your introspection and honesty. Good things are
right ahead... and here now!

My oldest is 17 and I have similar anxieties at times. He is working at Starbucks, plays
Magic, the Gathering and War Hammer, and sees friends. He spends time online and
watches movies. He reads. He acts.

But he isn't "preparing for college" and he isn't clear on what he wants to do next year.
There are days when I feel so great about his being home and other days I hope we've
made the right choice.

When I hear that voice inside, I remind myself that the other choice was so much worse
and that's why we are here today. And I look at him. He's happier each day.

But my biggest encouragement I wanted to give you is to let go of feeling ***sooo***
responsible. You can support and create space for kids to grow and learn. You can't "make
them" learn, you can't "force them" to become a certain kind of person. In short, you aren't
"responsible." You are behaving in a responsible way, however, when you honor who your
child is first.

A wise friend and counselor once told me "The only thing you can give your kids is your
love." This comment came in the context of my feeling I had damaged my kids when I left
the Christian faith as we had understood it. I worried that I wasn't passing on what they
needed for their futures. I worried that I wasn't "giving" them enough.

His comment that the only thing we can give is our love stopped me cold. I was at the time
an overachieving homeschooler. Love. Love - I could do that. I could speak nicely, I could
pitch in, I could listen to his detailed explanations of how to play a game I don't like or
understand, I could watch a movie and talk about it afterwards, I could show interest, I
could fold his laundry when it finished before he noticed, I could buy him a hamburger
when we go out... None of these had to do with ensuring his future success as an adult...

Love.

Unschooling has given me more space to love my kids. Do I believe that it's enough?

I do.

Julie B

>
> I'm definitely not laughing yet, but I am appreciating the joy and
> whimsy I hear from so many people who are living the unschooling
> life-it's a light at the end of this tunnel we're travelling in for
> right now. Ocassionally that light reflects off of some small moment
> in our day and we know that we can be part of it too. In the meantime,
> I'm trying to find the courage to continue looking at all of the
> things that are in the shadows.
>
> Kelly

Elizabeth Hill

** I've realized this week that part of my anger is jealousy. What an
ugly thing to see inside of myself.**

Maybe you are feeling that your parents wouldn't have exerted themselves
this much to meet your needs? That could be a really painful feeling.
(For me when I'm touchy and angry there is often pain hidden underneath
that I'm trying to ignore.)

**I have this frozen inaction problem, and it was building in him.**

I know what you mean. My husband was telling me that he was warning his
students about this feeling of "learned helplessness". He gave them the
example that an elephant that is "trained" on a heavy chain when young
can be controlled with a very light rope when older because it has
completely given up pulling against it.

** So I'll work on that again today, on turning the envy into gratitude.**

Gratitude is SUCH a positive force. I just wanted to warn you that your
son is probably not mature enough at this stage to express gratitude, at
least not with any consistency. So he may not be at the same place you
are emotionally. (Although I'd guess he may sometimes get swamped by
the same sense of fear that rises up to attack you.)

Best wishes,
Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/18/04 5:43:26 AM, kpacklight@... writes:

-=- I don't tell anyone we're unschooling. I'm terrified of the
anger that runs in me--anger at myself, my past, a few judgemental
people around us, Tyler who is becoming a teenager. -=-

That was even scary to read. I hope we can think of some things to help you
find some peace and strength.

-=-I'm shaking in my
shoes because of the fight that is so often between the two of us.-=-

Is it about learning and his future?
About his place in your family?
What other people are immediate factors?


=Too many days I feel
thwarted and put out and unheard and so afraid that I'm making a huge
mistake with him, that everyone who keeps telling me that he needs
structure and a rigid routine or he'll get lost is right. =

Does he want more structure?

-=-I keep talking to other
unschoolers who remind me that they once felt the way that I
feel--lost and unqualified--while completely accountable.-=-

"Completely accountable"?
If your relatives (or whoever the few judgmental people around you are) keep
on a steady harangue, are you accountable for the damage that does? I don't
think so.

Are parents whose kids are in school "completely accountable" for all the
damage inflicted by kids at school and teachers at school and school itself? Do
the parents get full credit if at school the kid thrives and has a teacher who
really changes his life and a rich friend who takes him to live in Europe?
Who (besides maybe a few who know there was an option) blames the parent if
school is awful for a kid?

There are lots of parts of lives that parents can take no direct credit or
blame for.

-=- I have this frozen inaction problem, and it was building in him. -=-

*Maybe* (not probably, but slightly-possibly) it's a genetic thing and it
would have built in him anyway. Kirby procrastinates the same way I do. The
other kids are more like their dad in that. I went to school and Kirby never
did, so it can't have been school. (I didn't procrastinate about school stuff
as much, though I was a night-before paper-writer, but I was never a
three-days-later paper writer.)

-=I have years and
years of training to break through-=-

Of training to do things?
What training, and trained by whom?

-=-I've realized this week that part of my anger is jealousy. What an
ugly thing to see inside of myself. To know that I feel envious of my
son's opportunity -=-

I used to see the jealousy in my husband. I had been through a lot of Adult
Children (of Alcoholics, in my case, but other Adult Children programs and
co-dependency groups will help in the same way) meetings and activities and
readings and discussions and self-examination by the time homeschooling was a
possibility and a factor here, and that helped EXTREMELY. I had already examined
the whats and why's of my childhood, and imagined better options, and forgiven
my mom quite a bit, and resolved to use that as a way to make decisions with
my own kids. One of the biggest resolutions in all that was not to have a
kneejerk "NO" when answering children's questions. If "Yes" is a possibility,"
why slam a "NO" in a child's face? And because a lot of that "yes" led to
some of the sweetest moments in my life to date, I was reinforced in the idea
that being a generous and gentle mom was good for the children and good for the
peace and joy of the family, but it was also good for the mom. When I was
generous and gentle, it made me a more generous and gentle person, right then and
there. I had the right and ability (and even experience) to be a "NO WAY"
person, or "Don't even think about it" mom. But that would have made me harsh
and harder right on the spot. It would have wounded my children's souls and
selves every single time.

-=-it's a light at the end of this tunnel we're travelling in for
right now. Ocassionally that light reflects off of some small moment
in our day and we know that we can be part of it too. -=-

Maybe you can think of it as under a thick shade instead of a tunnel. A
tunnel sounds scary and dangerous and of a fixed length. Maybe you can come up
with some reflectors or flashlights at least. <bwg> I'm serious, though. If
you make an image, you can make a friendlier, airier, lighter, safer image.
Maybe you can be in a forest with limited visibility and no direct sunlight but
you KNOW the light is up there because the trees are alive and you KNOW it
needs to rain sometimes, but that's okay.

-=-In the meantime,
I'm trying to find the courage to continue looking at all of the
thingthat are in the
Z shadows.-=-

One thing I remember well from the time I was turning over all the damp rocks
in my own early childhood memories was that I would think of a specific
moment when I was afraid or sad, and I would remember as well as I could what had
contributed. How had my mom been? Drunk? Self-involved and jealous herself
of my opportunities? Resentful of being stuck with me? And I would imagine
what she might have done just a LITTLE big better in that moment. And gradually
I would imagine what it might have been like if she had been wiser and more
generous and less wounded herself.

So on my own parenting checklist, into my toolbox (or toolbox wishlist) went
be sober
pay attention to the kids
rejoice in their joys
realize I had choices and I chose to have children and I chose to stay home
appreciate the opportunity I had to be with them
appreciate the fact that I was fertile (other friends were sad to be
childliess)
appreciate the fact that they were born alive
appreciate the fact that they were healthy
appreciate that they were verbal and curious
and just generally try to appreciate every smile, every joke and every moment.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/18/04 7:23:09 AM, julie@... writes:

<< Unschooling has given me more space to love my kids. Do I believe that
it's enough?


I do. >>

Years ago I was at a conference and near the end of it there was a panel:
David and Mickie Colfax (of Homeschooling for Excellence) and Dr. Raymond and
Dorothy Moore were there and I don't remember if there were others. For the
moment that struck me, there were no others involved (and those may have been
the only ones).

One of them, answering a question from the audience, said "Some homeschoolers
say all you have to do is love your kids." There was a pause while they
looked at each other, rolled their eyes, shook their heads and all kind of snorted
and chuckled. The eye contact I remember was Mrs. Colfax and Dr. Moore.

It didn't make me doubt myself. That was good.

They went on to say once your kids were old enough you needed to make them
work, and do lots of hard work. That love wasn't it.

As part of really loving my kids, I give them breaks and I give them
opportunities and I help them do hard things they want to do and I don't force them to
do many things they don't want to do. Holly changed her mind about the
dentist the other day after she pressed me to make her an emergency appointment. I
persuaded her to just buck up and go. Holly got whiney and resistant about
going up the tram to the crest with her grandfather and uncle and dad the other
day, after she had insisted that was the main thing she wanted to do while
they were there. I didn't say, "OK, no problem." I said "There's snow up
there, come on I'll help you get ready."

When she was warmly (and cutely) dressed, she felt better about going. It was
the quick preparation that dismayed her. They decided kind of suddenly to go
NOW, so they could see the sunset from up there.

She had a great time.

She'll remember that after her grandfather's dead, and that's not a
consideration she could think of herself, but her dad and I have grandfather memories
(some good and some regrets) so we pressed her in a kindly way for her own
good. Neither of us will remember it long, but she will.

If love isn't the most important or only thing, I do think it is a crucial
hinge on which every other decision depends.

Sandra

Kelly Ferry

Thank you Julie. I appreciate the encouragement and am latching on to
the idea that I have more space to love my kids. That seems like
enough to work with!

Kelly


On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 13:21:07 -0000, Julie Bogart <julie@...> wrote:
>
>
> Kelly, good for you! I'm impressed with your introspection and honesty. Good things are
> right ahead... and here now!
>
> My oldest is 17 and I have similar anxieties at times. He is working at Starbucks, plays
> Magic, the Gathering and War Hammer, and sees friends. He spends time online and
> watches movies. He reads. He acts.
>
> But he isn't "preparing for college" and he isn't clear on what he wants to do next year.
> There are days when I feel so great about his being home and other days I hope we've
> made the right choice.
>
> When I hear that voice inside, I remind myself that the other choice was so much worse
> and that's why we are here today. And I look at him. He's happier each day.
>
> But my biggest encouragement I wanted to give you is to let go of feeling ***sooo***
> responsible. You can support and create space for kids to grow and learn. You can't "make
> them" learn, you can't "force them" to become a certain kind of person. In short, you aren't
> "responsible." You are behaving in a responsible way, however, when you honor who your
> child is first.
>
> A wise friend and counselor once told me "The only thing you can give your kids is your
> love." This comment came in the context of my feeling I had damaged my kids when I left
> the Christian faith as we had understood it. I worried that I wasn't passing on what they
> needed for their futures. I worried that I wasn't "giving" them enough.
>
> His comment that the only thing we can give is our love stopped me cold. I was at the time
> an overachieving homeschooler. Love. Love - I could do that. I could speak nicely, I could
> pitch in, I could listen to his detailed explanations of how to play a game I don't like or
> understand, I could watch a movie and talk about it afterwards, I could show interest, I
> could fold his laundry when it finished before he noticed, I could buy him a hamburger
> when we go out... None of these had to do with ensuring his future success as an adult...
>
> Love.
>
> Unschooling has given me more space to love my kids. Do I believe that it's enough?
>
> I do.
>
> Julie B
>
> >
> > I'm definitely not laughing yet, but I am appreciating the joy and
> > whimsy I hear from so many people who are living the unschooling
> > life-it's a light at the end of this tunnel we're travelling in for
> > right now. Ocassionally that light reflects off of some small moment
> > in our day and we know that we can be part of it too. In the meantime,
> > I'm trying to find the courage to continue looking at all of the
> > things that are in the shadows.
> >
> > Kelly
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
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>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Kelly Ferry

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 06:40:46 -0700, Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@...> wrote:
>
>
> ** I've realized this week that part of my anger is jealousy. What an
> ugly thing to see inside of myself.**
>
> Maybe you are feeling that your parents wouldn't have exerted themselves
> this much to meet your needs? That could be a really painful feeling.
> (For me when I'm touchy and angry there is often pain hidden underneath
> that I'm trying to ignore.)

Yes! Exactly! This is an issue I've been working with myself most of
my adult life, but I apparently haven't finished the work!
>
> **I have this frozen inaction problem, and it was building in him.**
>
> I know what you mean. My husband was telling me that he was warning his
> students about this feeling of "learned helplessness". He gave them the
> example that an elephant that is "trained" on a heavy chain when young
> can be controlled with a very light rope when older because it has
> completely given up pulling against it.

Learned Helplessness. Yes. That's it exactly. It has taken so much
effort to get through that wall when I want to accomplish anything.
>
> ** So I'll work on that again today, on turning the envy into gratitude.**
>
> Gratitude is SUCH a positive force. I just wanted to warn you that your
> son is probably not mature enough at this stage to express gratitude, at
> least not with any consistency. So he may not be at the same place you
> are emotionally. (Although I'd guess he may sometimes get swamped by
> the same sense of fear that rises up to attack you.)

Indeed, he's not there. I recognize that this part of it is my
journey, not his. Sure, he'll see me changing and growing, that will
effect him in some way, but it's mine. Hopefully it will help to
lessen the tide of fear that swamps us both!

Thank you Betsy!

Kelly

Kelly Ferry

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 12:10:06 EDT, sandradodd@... <sandradodd@...> wrote:
>
>
> -=-I'm shaking in my
> shoes because of the fight that is so often between the two of us.-=-
>
> Is it about learning and his future?

Yes. About him getting the support and encouragement that he needs
from outside of our tiny family as well so that he can have the
freedom and the strength to do whatever it is that he is led to do.

> About his place in your family?

Well. Sort of. He's the first grandchild and great-grandchild. Because
of his interests (fantasy/gaming/cartooning) he's sort of been written
off by most of the family as being *creative* which isn't as valid to
most of them. He's also judged as being lost in his own world. But I
think he's created that world to have a place that felt good within
the world he's been stuck in. I know that I am a part of that
world-with the rules and regulations and judgements I carried. I have
dropped many of them (no sugar, no tv, monitored game and computer
time, bed time)

> What other people are immediate factors?
truthfully? nobody. Not daily anway. It's just me and him and his
step-dad who is very encouraging about unschooling.

>
> =Too many days I feel
> thwarted and put out and unheard and so afraid that I'm making a huge
> mistake with him, that everyone who keeps telling me that he needs
> structure and a rigid routine or he'll get lost is right. =
>
> Does he want more structure?

no. he wants even less, and we have almost none.
>
> -=-I keep talking to other
> unschoolers who remind me that they once felt the way that I
> feel--lost and unqualified--while completely accountable.-=-
>
> "Completely accountable"?
> If your relatives (or whoever the few judgmental people around you are) keep
> on a steady harangue, are you accountable for the damage that does? I don't
> think so.

Yes. I ruminated on that all morning. I have some very co-dependent
issues that I've been working on for a while. I regretted using the
word, because I knew it would be a red flag. I'm also glad I used it
because the responses have been so thoughtful and have pointed me
inward again. Never a bad thing.
>
>
> -=- I have this frozen inaction problem, and it was building in him. -=-

>
> *Maybe* (not probably, but slightly-possibly) it's a genetic thing and it
> would have built in him anyway. Kirby procrastinates the same way I do. The
> other kids are more like their dad in that. I went to school and Kirby never
> did, so it can't have been school. (I didn't procrastinate about school stuff
> as much, though I was a night-before paper-writer, but I was never a
> three-days-later paper writer.)

Well, yes. His father and I are both procrastinators in the extreme. I
guess I've never thought of it as a genetic possibility, that it was a
learned behavior or habit. Hmmm. Well, I'm still trying to be more
organized and responsible in my life, maybe that will rub off...maybe
it won't. The big thing I suppose is for me to let go of needing it to
be one way or the other. Right?
>
> -=I have years and
> years of training to break through-=-
>
> Of training to do things?
> What training, and trained by whom?

Oh, well...training to wait and be quiet and be told what to do next
by whoever is in authority...training to have low expectations for
myself and from the world...training to underachieve.

Dang. That made me sound like such a loser. I'm not really as bad as
all that. I'm actually a lot better than I was a decade ago. I'm even
a lot better than I was a month ago! I could stand to focus on the
positive a little more.

>
> -=-I've realized this week that part of my anger is jealousy. What an
> ugly thing to see inside of myself. To know that I feel envious of my
> son's opportunity -=-
>
> I used to see the jealousy in my husband. I had been through a lot of Adult
> Children (of Alcoholics, in my case, but other Adult Children programs and
> co-dependency groups will help in the same way) meetings and activities and
> readings and discussions and self-examination by the time homeschooling was a
> possibility and a factor here, and that helped EXTREMELY. I had already examined
> the whats and why's of my childhood, and imagined better options, and forgiven
> my mom quite a bit, and resolved to use that as a way to make decisions with
> my own kids. One of the biggest resolutions in all that was not to have a
> kneejerk "NO" when answering children's questions. If "Yes" is a possibility,"
> why slam a "NO" in a child's face? And because a lot of that "yes" led to
> some of the sweetest moments in my life to date, I was reinforced in the idea
> that being a generous and gentle mom was good for the children and good for the
> peace and joy of the family, but it was also good for the mom. When I was
> generous and gentle, it made me a more generous and gentle person, right then and
> there. I had the right and ability (and even experience) to be a "NO WAY"
> person, or "Don't even think about it" mom. But that would have made me harsh
> and harder right on the spot. It would have wounded my children's souls and
> selves every single time.

Okay. Yes. I can work with a statement like *Yes is a possibility*.
That is extremely helpful.

I'm amazed that after a solid 15 years of working on myself and
letting go of the disappointment and unhappiness of my childhood, that
so many of these old things have risen up again. I should know better.
I know that our Self is like an onion with many layers of the same
thing. When we peel away a layer, we get to experience the sweetness
and freshness of that newfound freedom from the old outer layer, but
eventually the new layer will need to be peeled away...and so on.
>
> -=-it's a light at the end of this tunnel we're travelling in for
> right now. Ocassionally that light reflects off of some small moment
> in our day and we know that we can be part of it too. -=-
>
> Maybe you can think of it as under a thick shade instead of a tunnel. A
> tunnel sounds scary and dangerous and of a fixed length. Maybe you can come up
> with some reflectors or flashlights at least. <bwg> I'm serious, though. If
> you make an image, you can make a friendlier, airier, lighter, safer image.
> Maybe you can be in a forest with limited visibility and no direct sunlight but
> you KNOW the light is up there because the trees are alive and you KNOW it
> needs to rain sometimes, but that's okay.

Yes. Thank you. This too, is very helpful. I do understand the power
of affirmation and visualizing. I hadn't even noticed the kinds of
imagery I have been using in my thinking and talking and writing.

I feel so much better after this exchange. Thank you.
>
> -=-In the meantime,
> I'm trying to find the courage to continue looking at all of the
> thingthat are in the
> Z shadows.-=-
>
> One thing I remember well from the time I was turning over all the damp rocks
> in my own early childhood memories was that I would think of a specific
> moment when I was afraid or sad, and I would remember as well as I could what had
> contributed. How had my mom been? Drunk? Self-involved and jealous herself
> of my opportunities? Resentful of being stuck with me? And I would imagine
> what she might have done just a LITTLE big better in that moment. And gradually
> I would imagine what it might have been like if she had been wiser and more
> generous and less wounded herself.

Another very useful activity. I'm going to play with this one in my
journal. I can think of several dozen moments right off the top of my
head. I can also see how those moments fuel my reactions with
situations with my children.

Ok. This has been quite enlightening. I'm going to go make some tea
and have the good cry that's been pushing at my head for the past half
hour.

Thank you again.

Warmly,

Kelly
who suddenly thinks she's maybe not such a bad deal for her kids after all...

[email protected]

<< The big thing I suppose is for me to let go of needing it to
be one way or the other. Right? >>

Even for yourself, I think.

Maybe this would be a good read for you today.
http://sandradodd.com/empowerment

-=-I'm not really as bad as
all that. I'm actually a lot better than I was a decade ago. I'm even
a lot better than I was a month ago! I could stand to focus on the
positive a little more.-=-

Tadaa!!

We just stirred you a little bit, poked you with the word stick, and
look---you're all better by yourself. <g>

Cool.
I enjoyed watching your transformations today (the parts you showed us with
words, I mean). Thanks.

Sandra

Kelly Ferry

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 15:11:44 EDT, sandradodd@... <sandradodd@...> wrote:
>
>
> << The big thing I suppose is for me to let go of needing it to
> be one way or the other. Right? >>
>
> Even for yourself, I think.
>
> Maybe this would be a good read for you today.
> http://sandradodd.com/empowerment

Yes indeed, that was a most timely read. I'm printing it out and
putting it on the fridge.
>
>
> We just stirred you a little bit, poked you with the word stick, and
> look---you're all better by yourself. <g>

Hee, the word stick. I like that. Sometimes it even tickles.
>
> Cool.
> I enjoyed watching your transformations today (the parts you showed us with
> words, I mean). Thanks.
>
> Sandra

No, Sandra, thank you. You and everyone who replied. I have had such
an interesting evening because of the things that unfolded here and
inside of me today. I can take a full breath again for the first time
in two weeks.

Kelly


>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Elizabeth Hill

** Yes! Exactly! This is an issue I've been working with myself most of
my adult life, but I apparently haven't finished the work!**

I'm not finished either, and I'm 45!

(from a second post -- same poster)

** Well, yes. His father and I are both procrastinators in the extreme.**

It seems like people might become serious procrastinators when there are
parents (or teachers) around that are severely judging the tasks being
done? It seems to me that natural consequences are almost never as bad
as parental disapproval/ridicule consequences. (I'd make an exception
in what I said for drug abuse and reckless driving which do have
horrific natural consequences.)

I was always a timid person, and when I was avoiding something my mom
would encourage me to consider "what's the worst thing that could happen?"

**Well, I'm still trying to be more
organized and responsible in my life, maybe that will rub off...maybe
it won't. The big thing I suppose is for me to let go of needing it to
be one way or the other. Right?**

In the case of adult children of alcoholics there seems to be the
tendency to be either all falling apart, or very tightly held together.
Trying to find a moderate way between the extremes isn't easy, but it
sounds like you are heading in that direction.

** Oh, well...training to wait and be quiet and be told what to do next
by whoever is in authority...training to have low expectations for
myself and from the world...training to underachieve.**

Training to be convenient for other people and to perform for them. Right?

I believe the public school system was not intended to educate future
leaders for this country, just future followers. When you first become
aware of the amount of brainwashing in your early years of education,
it's pretty staggering.

Betsy

Elizabeth Hill

**One of the biggest resolutions in all that was not to have a
kneejerk "NO" when answering children's questions. If "Yes" is a
possibility,"
why slam a "NO" in a child's face? And because a lot of that "yes" led to
some of the sweetest moments in my life to date, I was reinforced in the
idea
that being a generous and gentle mom was good for the children and good
for the
peace and joy of the family, but it was also good for the mom.**

I want to highlight and validate what Sandra says here and has said
repeatedly.

I can see how happy my son is when I say "Yes, I'll make you toast now"
instead of "Aren't you tall enough to reach the toaster now?" (which was
my first thought). When I make even a small effort to be generous to
him I get an intensely positive response. So, like one candle lighting
another the ideas from this list have spread into our family's life and
"lit it up".

Betsy

pam sorooshian

On Oct 18, 2004, at 12:02 PM, Kelly Ferry wrote:

> Because of his interests (fantasy/gaming/cartooning) he's sort of been
> written
> off by most of the family as being *creative* which isn't as valid to
> most of them.

I wanted to highlight this statement because I think it is pretty
common. If we unschool and our kids are passionate about astronomy or
biology or math or engineering, they are somehow more "impressive" and
we get less flack from others.

Those "artistic" kids cause our extended families and friends to worry
more - because they don't look like they're on the road to becoming a
doctor, lawyer, or engineer.

But, I seriously (and I mean VERY seriously) think they are on the road
to a happy life - in fact, I think they're on the road to a creative,
artistic, beautiful, passionate life that has PLAY at its core. AND,
what's more, some of them will become doctors, lawyers, or engineers -
and they'll have a depth in their lives that most of their colleagues
will not have.

-pam

Want MORE unschooling discussion?
<www.unschooling.info/forum>
Life is Learning; Learning is Life

Anne O

Betsy wrote:

***I can see how happy my son is when I say "Yes, I'll make you toast now"
instead of "Aren't you tall enough to reach the toaster now?" (which was
my first thought). When I make even a small effort to be generous to
him I get an intensely positive response.***

YES!

I talked about this at the conference...and what inspired me was that a week before the conference we were at our river cabin and we were dead exhausted one night...heading to bed, and Jake asked, "Mom, will you rub my back tonight?" I looked at him and I was DYING to get into my own bed and get to sleep, but I looked at my sweet child and the longing in his eyes and I knew my own sleep wouldn't be content if I said no, so I said, "Yes." And his entire *aura* changed...Then Sam asked, "Will you rub MY back tonight?" "Yes."

And it was from that moment that I came up with this for my talk: "When I use that shiny, glorious *yes* tool, I can see my children physically and emotionally relax into a place in their hearts where they feel incredibly loved, understood, respected and safe ~ the very definition of Joy."

Be Well ~
Anne




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/19/04 3:42:16 PM, ohman@... writes:

<< Jake asked, "Mom, will you rub my back tonight?" I looked at him and I
was DYING to get into my own bed and get to sleep, but I looked at my sweet
child and the longing in his eyes and I knew my own sleep wouldn't be content if I
said no, so I said, "Yes." And his entire *aura* changed...Then Sam asked,
"Will you rub MY back tonight?" "Yes." >>

Today Holly finally came out of her room at 1:30 in the afternoon. For MANY
days she has either needed to get up early or her very loud uncle was here and
he got up at 7:00 and started talking every day, without regard to Holly
being in the living room because she had given her grandfather her bedroom.

I had just finished my own lunch.

Holly came in and said, "Mom, will you please make my bed?"

I took a breath and said "Yes."

She lightened up as she stood there, like when a dog wags its tail.

"And will you make me lunch?"

And I did, and she was soft and sweet and happy, and said, "Will you brush my
hair?"

She sometimes asks for one of those but all three in a short space was
unusual. Marty and I are going out of town for three days soon, and I think she's
starting to feel it, and it's better for every single person involved if
she's not feeling needy or ignored.

The other day I was hand-feeding one of her rats piñon nuts. I bought them
from a roadside stand, roasted and shelled, and they were expensive--$8 for a 4
ounces or so, but I've roasted and shelled them (and picked them, a sappy,
sticky mess in the hot dirt), so it seemed worth it. Her rat LOVED them, and I
kept giving her another. She wasn't hiding them or saving them, she was
finishing them right up and reaching toward me for another with her nose. Holly
was drawing at the table, and the rat was running around on the table, up on
Holly and back down. I had been setting things out for her to climb in and
over, before I thought to offer her one of the precious local nuts.

Holly talked about how efficiently they eat, without dropping a single bit.

After about five, Holly said "She doesn't need any more of those."

It was an odd thing to say. It sounded like her grandmother. "The kids
don't need to do [whatever]."

I said, "That's okay, I'm having fun and she likes them."

"But they're expensive."

"That's okay. She's not going to eat them all."

And after ten or eleven, she was done. She turned down the next one and
took off. I left it lying there. She came back later, sniffed it, but kept
playing.

I talked a little about how rich MoonShine must feel, because she got as many
nuts as she wanted. Even rats will choose to stop when they're full, if
they're living secure lives. After she was full of nuts, climbing around on the
table became more important to her.

Sandra

soggyboysmom

--- In [email protected], Kelly Ferry
<kpacklight@g...> wrote:
>
> I've realized this week that part of my anger is jealousy. ... To
know that I feel envious of my son's opportunity to pull out of a
system that was teaching him to be a static person--the system that
taught me the same thing. I have this frozen inaction problem, and
it was building in him. I have years and years of training to break
through and he might actually have a chance to find his voice and
his song.

You're not alone in this. Late last week, DH and I were having a
late night conversation about DS. DH is the at home parent so a lot
of DS' 'spirited' behavior is directed at him all day. As we talked
and I was explaining things quietly and gently that I had read and
learned here and other places, DH started quietly crying and as I
held his hand he said it was because he was jealous of DS for having
this wonderful freedom that he wishes he could have had (DS has
never been in school - he's 6). I told DH to start NOW doing the
things he wishes he could have done and to think of the opportunity
DS has now to soar, the way he wishes he could have.

(BTW MIL has said many times that she wishes she knew and could have
homeschooled DH when he was a kid and she loves that we are
unschooling DS - isn't that great - ILs that we don't have to
wrestle with over these things!)

Kelly Ferry

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 16:55:58 -0700, Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@...> wrote:
>
>
> Training to be convenient for other people and to perform for them. Right?
>
> I believe the public school system was not intended to educate future
> leaders for this country, just future followers. When you first become
> aware of the amount of brainwashing in your early years of education,
> it's pretty staggering.

What has been most staggering to me in the last month or so is how dep
the brainwashing went. I have read about unschooling for 7 or 8 years
now, and really tried to change my parenting with a lot of success.
When Tyler didn't return to school, I hit a layer of sludge that I
didn't even know existed. I thought I was ready for all of it, and
able to handle whatever he wanted to do or not do. But the not doing
anything schoolish or academic has triggered so much doubt.

I will say, however, that the responses I've received in this thread
have gone far in improving the quality of the week that Tyler and I
just spent together. It was mostly just amazing, with much quiet time,
a lot of running around together doing errands or helping my in-laws,
and CALM conversations. A lot less emotion. Emotional things talked
about with no drama. Just...good.

Kelly>

Kelly Ferry

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:25:27 -0700, Elizabeth Hill
<ecsamhill@...> wrote:
>
>
> I want to highlight and validate what Sandra says here and has said
> repeatedly.
>
> I can see how happy my son is when I say "Yes, I'll make you toast now"
> instead of "Aren't you tall enough to reach the toaster now?" (which was
> my first thought). When I make even a small effort to be generous to
> him I get an intensely positive response. So, like one candle lighting
> another the ideas from this list have spread into our family's life and
> "lit it up".
>
Last night Ty and I sat down to watch The Apprentice together. He had
pulled a muscle in his back hefting buckets of cat litter into the
basement for his grandparents and was stretched out on the couch with
a sock full of warm buckwheat on his back. I sat down and he asked me
to put the sock in the microwave for a few minutes. I rolled my eyes
and said "I just sat down."

His face fell, and he started to roll off the couch to do it himself.
I jumped up and pushed him gently back and took the sock and told him
I'd do it. He said never mind. I apologized and said that I wanted to
do it for him, that I knew his back was sore and that it would be nice
to do something to help him. He turned into this big mushy boy and we
spent the next hour giggling together.

That's the big example that sticks out, but I know it happened dozens
of times and it kept getting easier, and seeing him light up with
pleasure and with this small child cuddlyness where usually it's mean
mom and grumpy teen boy...I don't know. I just feel so...so sure that
I'm on the right track.

Kelly

Kelly Ferry

Yes, I think that's very true. I just need to find a way to speak with
people who are concerned and negative about it (like his father who
lives in another state and isn't really interested in reading anything
I send to him.)

But I can't fix their relationship, or smooth the way for Tyler with
his dad. I can only listen and make suggestions if he wants them. It's
unfortunately breaking his kid's heart right now to have his dad
invalidating everything he is interested in learning about, telling
him that he should focus on academics and subjects, keep the other
stuff as hobby.

Kelly
On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 19:40:42 -0700, pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

>
> I wanted to highlight this statement because I think it is pretty
> common. If we unschool and our kids are passionate about astronomy or
> biology or math or engineering, they are somehow more "impressive" and
> we get less flack from others.
>
> Those "artistic" kids cause our extended families and friends to worry
> more - because they don't look like they're on the road to becoming a
> doctor, lawyer, or engineer.
>
> But, I seriously (and I mean VERY seriously) think they are on the road
> to a happy life - in fact, I think they're on the road to a creative,
> artistic, beautiful, passionate life that has PLAY at its core. AND,
> what's more, some of them will become doctors, lawyers, or engineers -
> and they'll have a depth in their lives that most of their colleagues
> will not have.
>
> -pam
>
> Want MORE unschooling discussion?
> <www.unschooling.info/forum>
> Life is Learning; Learning is Life
>
>
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Kelly Ferry

Thank you so much for sharing this. It is exactly how I have been feeling.

Kelly



On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 15:50:43 -0000, soggyboysmom
<debra.rossing@...> wrote:
>
>> You're not alone in this. Late last week, DH and I were having a
> late night conversation about DS. DH is the at home parent so a lot
> of DS' 'spirited' behavior is directed at him all day. As we talked
> and I was explaining things quietly and gently that I had read and
> learned here and other places, DH started quietly crying and as I
> held his hand he said it was because he was jealous of DS for having
> this wonderful freedom that he wishes he could have had (DS has
> never been in school - he's 6). I told DH to start NOW doing the
> things he wishes he could have done and to think of the opportunity
> DS has now to soar, the way he wishes he could have.
>
> (BTW MIL has said many times that she wishes she knew and could have
> homeschooled DH when he was a kid and she loves that we are
> unschooling DS - isn't that great - ILs that we don't have to
> wrestle with over these things!)
>
>
>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
>
> Visit the Unschooling website and message boards: http://www.unschooling.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>

Julie Bogart

--- In [email protected], Kelly Ferry <kpacklight@g...> wrote:

but I know it happened dozens
> of times and it kept getting easier, and seeing him light up with
> pleasure and with this small child cuddlyness where usually it's mean
> mom and grumpy teen boy...I don't know. I just feel so...so sure that
> I'm on the right track.
>
I know i'm probably just emotional about a lot of stuff, but this post made me cry. It's the
whole point, you know?

Julie B