Punishment and rewards
Ren Allen
"My kid does cool stuff too but he also does some not so cool stuff -
how do you handle in your house when one child is misbehaving?"
Misbehavior is better viewed as a lack of tools. A child doesn't do
things for no reason....so if we can see beyond the behavior and try
to understand why a person would act hurtful or mean, we can see our
children as perfect and whole, even in the rough moments.
Children are like foreigners in a strange land. They come to us whole,
but not with a framwork for how the world works. They need to gather
up tools along the way, without feeling "less than" when they mess up.
If we can understand this, if we can assist them as foreigners trying
to understand and learn, we can see that punishment only gets in the
way of true understanding. It's harmful, not helpful. It takes away a
sense of internal motivation a sense of wholeness.
We are here to guide and assist as needed, and young children need us
a LOT. Punishment puts a wedge between you and your child, they need
to trust us to assist them without harm.
There are times I must remove a child very quickly from a situation.
If a person is being harmful to anyone, it needs to be stopped. But as
soon as I fill that person up with love, hugs or food (or whatever it
is they need at the moment) they are free to do and go where they
choose. There is no need for punishment. The issue was dealt with.
Every person in my home deserves peace and safety, I think it is my
main job to ensure the household environment has the best odds of
providing that. I can't think of a single instance where any of my
children need punishing for anything they've done. Perhaps you could
use some real life examples so we can examine the whole issue of
punishment and rewards more clearly?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
how do you handle in your house when one child is misbehaving?"
Misbehavior is better viewed as a lack of tools. A child doesn't do
things for no reason....so if we can see beyond the behavior and try
to understand why a person would act hurtful or mean, we can see our
children as perfect and whole, even in the rough moments.
Children are like foreigners in a strange land. They come to us whole,
but not with a framwork for how the world works. They need to gather
up tools along the way, without feeling "less than" when they mess up.
If we can understand this, if we can assist them as foreigners trying
to understand and learn, we can see that punishment only gets in the
way of true understanding. It's harmful, not helpful. It takes away a
sense of internal motivation a sense of wholeness.
We are here to guide and assist as needed, and young children need us
a LOT. Punishment puts a wedge between you and your child, they need
to trust us to assist them without harm.
There are times I must remove a child very quickly from a situation.
If a person is being harmful to anyone, it needs to be stopped. But as
soon as I fill that person up with love, hugs or food (or whatever it
is they need at the moment) they are free to do and go where they
choose. There is no need for punishment. The issue was dealt with.
Every person in my home deserves peace and safety, I think it is my
main job to ensure the household environment has the best odds of
providing that. I can't think of a single instance where any of my
children need punishing for anything they've done. Perhaps you could
use some real life examples so we can examine the whole issue of
punishment and rewards more clearly?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
S Drag-teine
"Perhaps you could use some real life examples so we can examine the whole
issue of punishment and rewards more clearly?"
Gladly, I really value your perspective. Some is an issue of yelling. My son
(5 1/2) is a very sweet hearted loving boy most the time but when someone
new is over or sometimes without explanation he gets very loud. Each time I
very calmly explain to him that I don't yell at him and I would like him not
to yell at me. It is often nothing mean more like "I want some milk" but he
says it up in my face very loudly which is often hard for me to understand
what he says.
The other is my son very often what his sister (13 m) to come play with him
or cuddle with him and she doesn't always want to he will try and force her
to do it by picking her up or holding her where he wants her. Then when she
does want to play he pushes her away. Last night he swiped her hand away
when she touched his belly. She, I think, gave the best punishment to him
then we could. She got the most pitiful face, I mean full pout in the truest
of misery and cried. I held her to me and was about to say something to him
but the look on his face was of regret. He knew but I don't know how to give
him the tools to deal with our newest person.
The other is getting him to be still. Maybe he just isn't capable yet but
sometimes I really need him to stop juggling around for like 10 minutes so
we can get stuff like errands done or waiting in line like at the grocery
store.
Now I don't want to give the impression that my children are awful or that I
think they are. I am truly blessed to have the children I have - they are
bright, imaginative, sweet, caring, cuddly kids. Most days we have wonderful
days and I know that everyone has a bad day.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 5:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"My kid does cool stuff too but he also does some not so cool stuff -
how do you handle in your house when one child is misbehaving?"
Misbehavior is better viewed as a lack of tools. A child doesn't do
things for no reason....so if we can see beyond the behavior and try
to understand why a person would act hurtful or mean, we can see our
children as perfect and whole, even in the rough moments.
Children are like foreigners in a strange land. They come to us whole,
but not with a framwork for how the world works. They need to gather
up tools along the way, without feeling "less than" when they mess up.
If we can understand this, if we can assist them as foreigners trying
to understand and learn, we can see that punishment only gets in the
way of true understanding. It's harmful, not helpful. It takes away a
sense of internal motivation a sense of wholeness.
We are here to guide and assist as needed, and young children need us
a LOT. Punishment puts a wedge between you and your child, they need
to trust us to assist them without harm.
There are times I must remove a child very quickly from a situation.
If a person is being harmful to anyone, it needs to be stopped. But as
soon as I fill that person up with love, hugs or food (or whatever it
is they need at the moment) they are free to do and go where they
choose. There is no need for punishment. The issue was dealt with.
Every person in my home deserves peace and safety, I think it is my
main job to ensure the household environment has the best odds of
providing that. I can't think of a single instance where any of my
children need punishing for anything they've done. Perhaps you could
use some real life examples so we can examine the whole issue of
punishment and rewards more clearly?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
issue of punishment and rewards more clearly?"
Gladly, I really value your perspective. Some is an issue of yelling. My son
(5 1/2) is a very sweet hearted loving boy most the time but when someone
new is over or sometimes without explanation he gets very loud. Each time I
very calmly explain to him that I don't yell at him and I would like him not
to yell at me. It is often nothing mean more like "I want some milk" but he
says it up in my face very loudly which is often hard for me to understand
what he says.
The other is my son very often what his sister (13 m) to come play with him
or cuddle with him and she doesn't always want to he will try and force her
to do it by picking her up or holding her where he wants her. Then when she
does want to play he pushes her away. Last night he swiped her hand away
when she touched his belly. She, I think, gave the best punishment to him
then we could. She got the most pitiful face, I mean full pout in the truest
of misery and cried. I held her to me and was about to say something to him
but the look on his face was of regret. He knew but I don't know how to give
him the tools to deal with our newest person.
The other is getting him to be still. Maybe he just isn't capable yet but
sometimes I really need him to stop juggling around for like 10 minutes so
we can get stuff like errands done or waiting in line like at the grocery
store.
Now I don't want to give the impression that my children are awful or that I
think they are. I am truly blessed to have the children I have - they are
bright, imaginative, sweet, caring, cuddly kids. Most days we have wonderful
days and I know that everyone has a bad day.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 5:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"My kid does cool stuff too but he also does some not so cool stuff -
how do you handle in your house when one child is misbehaving?"
Misbehavior is better viewed as a lack of tools. A child doesn't do
things for no reason....so if we can see beyond the behavior and try
to understand why a person would act hurtful or mean, we can see our
children as perfect and whole, even in the rough moments.
Children are like foreigners in a strange land. They come to us whole,
but not with a framwork for how the world works. They need to gather
up tools along the way, without feeling "less than" when they mess up.
If we can understand this, if we can assist them as foreigners trying
to understand and learn, we can see that punishment only gets in the
way of true understanding. It's harmful, not helpful. It takes away a
sense of internal motivation a sense of wholeness.
We are here to guide and assist as needed, and young children need us
a LOT. Punishment puts a wedge between you and your child, they need
to trust us to assist them without harm.
There are times I must remove a child very quickly from a situation.
If a person is being harmful to anyone, it needs to be stopped. But as
soon as I fill that person up with love, hugs or food (or whatever it
is they need at the moment) they are free to do and go where they
choose. There is no need for punishment. The issue was dealt with.
Every person in my home deserves peace and safety, I think it is my
main job to ensure the household environment has the best odds of
providing that. I can't think of a single instance where any of my
children need punishing for anything they've done. Perhaps you could
use some real life examples so we can examine the whole issue of
punishment and rewards more clearly?
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Ren Allen
"It is often nothing mean more like "I want some milk" but he
says it up in my face very loudly which is often hard for me to understand
what he says."
Jalen has a very high volume at times too. Always has. I've spent a
lot of time saying, "Jalen, that's hurting my ears, could you talk
lower?" Or "Can you use a voice like this (as I'm talking softer) so I
can listen better?"
He really is starting to catch himself now and honor my need for a
gentler voice (he just turned five) I try to save that request for
when I really need it. It's never a time for making him feel badly
though.
"The other is getting him to be still. Maybe he just isn't capable yet
but sometimes I really need him to stop juggling around for like 10
minutes so we can get stuff like errands done or waiting in line like
at the grocery store."
Unrealistic expectation probably. Can you re-direct the wiggling so
it's simply done near you? I'm not sure why he would need to stand
still in a line, unless he's going too far away from you. Maybe you
could explain what the problem with movement is in that situation.
Sometimes the wiggling is something other people give you strange
looks for. But as long as Jalen isn't truly harming anything or
getting somewhere he really shouldn't be, I figure there's no harm in
a wiggly boy.
He actually does not stay by my side when I'm checking out, but I've
tried to give him as much freedom as age allows for safely and he's
quite willing to stay nearby. Often, he sits on the electric shopping
carts and eats some popcorn I picked up for him.
He never stands still though. Again, I don't see why that would be an
issue to make him feel badly over.
Can you bring some interesting snacks or toys with you for those
moments you really feel he needs to be more still? There are so many
ways to help a child cope, without trying to conform them to some
unrealistic behavior. Young children NEED to move, NEED to explore and
talk and be loud in many cases. We can help them gain tools for
coping, but most of the time it's US that need to do the adapting, not
them.
In the case of younger sibling stuff, it's just plain hard at that
age. He's not going to really appreciate and enjoy her play until
she's older. It's really vital to be very present until that day.
Five is still so very young. He's only had five years to learn to walk
and speak a whole language, he just hasn't had time (nor the
development) to figure out all this relationship stuff, or pick up
great communication tools. He's using what he has....there is no shame
in that. Punishment won't help him navigate any of the above
situations though.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
says it up in my face very loudly which is often hard for me to understand
what he says."
Jalen has a very high volume at times too. Always has. I've spent a
lot of time saying, "Jalen, that's hurting my ears, could you talk
lower?" Or "Can you use a voice like this (as I'm talking softer) so I
can listen better?"
He really is starting to catch himself now and honor my need for a
gentler voice (he just turned five) I try to save that request for
when I really need it. It's never a time for making him feel badly
though.
"The other is getting him to be still. Maybe he just isn't capable yet
but sometimes I really need him to stop juggling around for like 10
minutes so we can get stuff like errands done or waiting in line like
at the grocery store."
Unrealistic expectation probably. Can you re-direct the wiggling so
it's simply done near you? I'm not sure why he would need to stand
still in a line, unless he's going too far away from you. Maybe you
could explain what the problem with movement is in that situation.
Sometimes the wiggling is something other people give you strange
looks for. But as long as Jalen isn't truly harming anything or
getting somewhere he really shouldn't be, I figure there's no harm in
a wiggly boy.
He actually does not stay by my side when I'm checking out, but I've
tried to give him as much freedom as age allows for safely and he's
quite willing to stay nearby. Often, he sits on the electric shopping
carts and eats some popcorn I picked up for him.
He never stands still though. Again, I don't see why that would be an
issue to make him feel badly over.
Can you bring some interesting snacks or toys with you for those
moments you really feel he needs to be more still? There are so many
ways to help a child cope, without trying to conform them to some
unrealistic behavior. Young children NEED to move, NEED to explore and
talk and be loud in many cases. We can help them gain tools for
coping, but most of the time it's US that need to do the adapting, not
them.
In the case of younger sibling stuff, it's just plain hard at that
age. He's not going to really appreciate and enjoy her play until
she's older. It's really vital to be very present until that day.
Five is still so very young. He's only had five years to learn to walk
and speak a whole language, he just hasn't had time (nor the
development) to figure out all this relationship stuff, or pick up
great communication tools. He's using what he has....there is no shame
in that. Punishment won't help him navigate any of the above
situations though.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
"I know that my discipline is still a still a form of punishment. I
ask my son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I
would like better ideas but I haven't found any."
Ah, but you're starting to see why it sucks.:)
Society says it's ok to treat children as inferior citizens. They are
not given the dignity and respect they so richly deserve by most
parents. You mentioned in the last post that you wouldn't question
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.
As far as sending a child to their room. Imagine if your dh did that
to you when you were in a pissy mood. Maybe you say something cutting
or inappropriate and he said "go sit in your room until you can be nicer".
OOH YUCK! Would it make you want to act nice? NO, it would make you
resent the hell out of him.
There ARE times I need to get a child away from other people. That can
be done with kindness though. Pick them up, hug them, tell them you
need to spend some time away from other people so the other person can
have their peace. Sit together, talk if the child feels like it,
sympathize with them, rub their back and let them know you care that
they're having a hard time.
Hugs and love go a long way to shifting inappropriate behavior.....and
it doesn't drive a wedge between you and the child. We all could use a
bit of sympathy when we're having a rough day....a little understanding.
There were times when the children were much younger that I couldn't
take a child away from everyone, so maybe I had one in a sling (or on
the hip) and one on the other hip, or next to me or whatever.
Sending a person away makes them feel rejected, not understood.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
ask my son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I
would like better ideas but I haven't found any."
Ah, but you're starting to see why it sucks.:)
Society says it's ok to treat children as inferior citizens. They are
not given the dignity and respect they so richly deserve by most
parents. You mentioned in the last post that you wouldn't question
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.
As far as sending a child to their room. Imagine if your dh did that
to you when you were in a pissy mood. Maybe you say something cutting
or inappropriate and he said "go sit in your room until you can be nicer".
OOH YUCK! Would it make you want to act nice? NO, it would make you
resent the hell out of him.
There ARE times I need to get a child away from other people. That can
be done with kindness though. Pick them up, hug them, tell them you
need to spend some time away from other people so the other person can
have their peace. Sit together, talk if the child feels like it,
sympathize with them, rub their back and let them know you care that
they're having a hard time.
Hugs and love go a long way to shifting inappropriate behavior.....and
it doesn't drive a wedge between you and the child. We all could use a
bit of sympathy when we're having a rough day....a little understanding.
There were times when the children were much younger that I couldn't
take a child away from everyone, so maybe I had one in a sling (or on
the hip) and one on the other hip, or next to me or whatever.
Sending a person away makes them feel rejected, not understood.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Andrea
Well put Ren! You mentioned Alfie's book "Punished by Rewards", and I would
like to add that his book "Unconditional Parenting" touches on the P/R
dialogue, but from the parenting perspective. The book is wonderful for
anyone interested in a non-punishment based parenting style.Just thought I'd
chime in!
Andrea
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 8:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"I know that my discipline is still a still a form of punishment. I
ask my son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I
would like better ideas but I haven't found any."
Ah, but you're starting to see why it sucks.:)
Society says it's ok to treat children as inferior citizens. They are
not given the dignity and respect they so richly deserve by most
parents. You mentioned in the last post that you wouldn't question
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.
As far as sending a child to their room. Imagine if your dh did that
to you when you were in a pissy mood. Maybe you say something cutting
or inappropriate and he said "go sit in your room until you can be nicer".
OOH YUCK! Would it make you want to act nice? NO, it would make you
resent the hell out of him.
There ARE times I need to get a child away from other people. That can
be done with kindness though. Pick them up, hug them, tell them you
need to spend some time away from other people so the other person can
have their peace. Sit together, talk if the child feels like it,
sympathize with them, rub their back and let them know you care that
they're having a hard time.
Hugs and love go a long way to shifting inappropriate behavior.....and
it doesn't drive a wedge between you and the child. We all could use a
bit of sympathy when we're having a rough day....a little understanding.
There were times when the children were much younger that I couldn't
take a child away from everyone, so maybe I had one in a sling (or on
the hip) and one on the other hip, or next to me or whatever.
Sending a person away makes them feel rejected, not understood.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
like to add that his book "Unconditional Parenting" touches on the P/R
dialogue, but from the parenting perspective. The book is wonderful for
anyone interested in a non-punishment based parenting style.Just thought I'd
chime in!
Andrea
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 8:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"I know that my discipline is still a still a form of punishment. I
ask my son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I
would like better ideas but I haven't found any."
Ah, but you're starting to see why it sucks.:)
Society says it's ok to treat children as inferior citizens. They are
not given the dignity and respect they so richly deserve by most
parents. You mentioned in the last post that you wouldn't question
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.
As far as sending a child to their room. Imagine if your dh did that
to you when you were in a pissy mood. Maybe you say something cutting
or inappropriate and he said "go sit in your room until you can be nicer".
OOH YUCK! Would it make you want to act nice? NO, it would make you
resent the hell out of him.
There ARE times I need to get a child away from other people. That can
be done with kindness though. Pick them up, hug them, tell them you
need to spend some time away from other people so the other person can
have their peace. Sit together, talk if the child feels like it,
sympathize with them, rub their back and let them know you care that
they're having a hard time.
Hugs and love go a long way to shifting inappropriate behavior.....and
it doesn't drive a wedge between you and the child. We all could use a
bit of sympathy when we're having a rough day....a little understanding.
There were times when the children were much younger that I couldn't
take a child away from everyone, so maybe I had one in a sling (or on
the hip) and one on the other hip, or next to me or whatever.
Sending a person away makes them feel rejected, not understood.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
SPONSORED LINKS
Secondary
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Secondary+school+education&w1=Secondary
+school+education&w2=Graduate+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=G
raduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+e
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S Drag-teine
Yes, I do all of that - some days I am frustrated by it and maybe it is me
that needs the time out. LOL! I guess sometimes I just second guess myself.
The waiting in line stuff is - well, at the bank I allow him to move around,
sit in a chair, go get me and him water (they have a water thingy). At the
grocery store, there isn't enough room for him to bounce around.
Other times it is him waiting in line. Like when we go to a kid fair and
such and he needs to stand inline to get his face painted, ride something or
some other activity.
I do carry with me snacks, books and other activities at most times.
Sometimes it works other times not so much and I do realize that there are
days that we shouldn't go out and other days I have to deal with it because
we have to go out.
It helps to know that others are dealing with the same problem and that I am
doing the best thing.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 11:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"It is often nothing mean more like "I want some milk" but he
says it up in my face very loudly which is often hard for me to understand
what he says."
Jalen has a very high volume at times too. Always has. I've spent a
lot of time saying, "Jalen, that's hurting my ears, could you talk
lower?" Or "Can you use a voice like this (as I'm talking softer) so I
can listen better?"
He really is starting to catch himself now and honor my need for a
gentler voice (he just turned five) I try to save that request for
when I really need it. It's never a time for making him feel badly
though.
"The other is getting him to be still. Maybe he just isn't capable yet
but sometimes I really need him to stop juggling around for like 10
minutes so we can get stuff like errands done or waiting in line like
at the grocery store."
Unrealistic expectation probably. Can you re-direct the wiggling so
it's simply done near you? I'm not sure why he would need to stand
still in a line, unless he's going too far away from you. Maybe you
could explain what the problem with movement is in that situation.
Sometimes the wiggling is something other people give you strange
looks for. But as long as Jalen isn't truly harming anything or
getting somewhere he really shouldn't be, I figure there's no harm in
a wiggly boy.
He actually does not stay by my side when I'm checking out, but I've
tried to give him as much freedom as age allows for safely and he's
quite willing to stay nearby. Often, he sits on the electric shopping
carts and eats some popcorn I picked up for him.
He never stands still though. Again, I don't see why that would be an
issue to make him feel badly over.
Can you bring some interesting snacks or toys with you for those
moments you really feel he needs to be more still? There are so many
ways to help a child cope, without trying to conform them to some
unrealistic behavior. Young children NEED to move, NEED to explore and
talk and be loud in many cases. We can help them gain tools for
coping, but most of the time it's US that need to do the adapting, not
them.
In the case of younger sibling stuff, it's just plain hard at that
age. He's not going to really appreciate and enjoy her play until
she's older. It's really vital to be very present until that day.
Five is still so very young. He's only had five years to learn to walk
and speak a whole language, he just hasn't had time (nor the
development) to figure out all this relationship stuff, or pick up
great communication tools. He's using what he has....there is no shame
in that. Punishment won't help him navigate any of the above
situations though.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
that needs the time out. LOL! I guess sometimes I just second guess myself.
The waiting in line stuff is - well, at the bank I allow him to move around,
sit in a chair, go get me and him water (they have a water thingy). At the
grocery store, there isn't enough room for him to bounce around.
Other times it is him waiting in line. Like when we go to a kid fair and
such and he needs to stand inline to get his face painted, ride something or
some other activity.
I do carry with me snacks, books and other activities at most times.
Sometimes it works other times not so much and I do realize that there are
days that we shouldn't go out and other days I have to deal with it because
we have to go out.
It helps to know that others are dealing with the same problem and that I am
doing the best thing.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 11:39 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"It is often nothing mean more like "I want some milk" but he
says it up in my face very loudly which is often hard for me to understand
what he says."
Jalen has a very high volume at times too. Always has. I've spent a
lot of time saying, "Jalen, that's hurting my ears, could you talk
lower?" Or "Can you use a voice like this (as I'm talking softer) so I
can listen better?"
He really is starting to catch himself now and honor my need for a
gentler voice (he just turned five) I try to save that request for
when I really need it. It's never a time for making him feel badly
though.
"The other is getting him to be still. Maybe he just isn't capable yet
but sometimes I really need him to stop juggling around for like 10
minutes so we can get stuff like errands done or waiting in line like
at the grocery store."
Unrealistic expectation probably. Can you re-direct the wiggling so
it's simply done near you? I'm not sure why he would need to stand
still in a line, unless he's going too far away from you. Maybe you
could explain what the problem with movement is in that situation.
Sometimes the wiggling is something other people give you strange
looks for. But as long as Jalen isn't truly harming anything or
getting somewhere he really shouldn't be, I figure there's no harm in
a wiggly boy.
He actually does not stay by my side when I'm checking out, but I've
tried to give him as much freedom as age allows for safely and he's
quite willing to stay nearby. Often, he sits on the electric shopping
carts and eats some popcorn I picked up for him.
He never stands still though. Again, I don't see why that would be an
issue to make him feel badly over.
Can you bring some interesting snacks or toys with you for those
moments you really feel he needs to be more still? There are so many
ways to help a child cope, without trying to conform them to some
unrealistic behavior. Young children NEED to move, NEED to explore and
talk and be loud in many cases. We can help them gain tools for
coping, but most of the time it's US that need to do the adapting, not
them.
In the case of younger sibling stuff, it's just plain hard at that
age. He's not going to really appreciate and enjoy her play until
she's older. It's really vital to be very present until that day.
Five is still so very young. He's only had five years to learn to walk
and speak a whole language, he just hasn't had time (nor the
development) to figure out all this relationship stuff, or pick up
great communication tools. He's using what he has....there is no shame
in that. Punishment won't help him navigate any of the above
situations though.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
S Drag-teine
*** You mentioned in the last post that you wouldn't question
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.***
Yes, sometimes I contradict what I believe with the way I act because I lack
the tools and sometimes the patience. Actually, my husband has sent me to my
room and I do resent it. I need a new tactic because I don't like send him
to his room but I also think that actions have consequences and I don't know
what else to do.
How about a "this happened today and I this is how I handled it thread?" It
would really help to hear what is going on in others houses that I could
try. I want my son to feel understood and loved.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 11:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"I know that my discipline is still a still a form of punishment. I
ask my son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I
would like better ideas but I haven't found any."
Ah, but you're starting to see why it sucks.:)
Society says it's ok to treat children as inferior citizens. They are
not given the dignity and respect they so richly deserve by most
parents. You mentioned in the last post that you wouldn't question
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.
As far as sending a child to their room. Imagine if your dh did that
to you when you were in a pissy mood. Maybe you say something cutting
or inappropriate and he said "go sit in your room until you can be nicer".
OOH YUCK! Would it make you want to act nice? NO, it would make you
resent the hell out of him.
There ARE times I need to get a child away from other people. That can
be done with kindness though. Pick them up, hug them, tell them you
need to spend some time away from other people so the other person can
have their peace. Sit together, talk if the child feels like it,
sympathize with them, rub their back and let them know you care that
they're having a hard time.
Hugs and love go a long way to shifting inappropriate behavior.....and
it doesn't drive a wedge between you and the child. We all could use a
bit of sympathy when we're having a rough day....a little understanding.
There were times when the children were much younger that I couldn't
take a child away from everyone, so maybe I had one in a sling (or on
the hip) and one on the other hip, or next to me or whatever.
Sending a person away makes them feel rejected, not understood.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.***
Yes, sometimes I contradict what I believe with the way I act because I lack
the tools and sometimes the patience. Actually, my husband has sent me to my
room and I do resent it. I need a new tactic because I don't like send him
to his room but I also think that actions have consequences and I don't know
what else to do.
How about a "this happened today and I this is how I handled it thread?" It
would really help to hear what is going on in others houses that I could
try. I want my son to feel understood and loved.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 11:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"I know that my discipline is still a still a form of punishment. I
ask my son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I
would like better ideas but I haven't found any."
Ah, but you're starting to see why it sucks.:)
Society says it's ok to treat children as inferior citizens. They are
not given the dignity and respect they so richly deserve by most
parents. You mentioned in the last post that you wouldn't question
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.
As far as sending a child to their room. Imagine if your dh did that
to you when you were in a pissy mood. Maybe you say something cutting
or inappropriate and he said "go sit in your room until you can be nicer".
OOH YUCK! Would it make you want to act nice? NO, it would make you
resent the hell out of him.
There ARE times I need to get a child away from other people. That can
be done with kindness though. Pick them up, hug them, tell them you
need to spend some time away from other people so the other person can
have their peace. Sit together, talk if the child feels like it,
sympathize with them, rub their back and let them know you care that
they're having a hard time.
Hugs and love go a long way to shifting inappropriate behavior.....and
it doesn't drive a wedge between you and the child. We all could use a
bit of sympathy when we're having a rough day....a little understanding.
There were times when the children were much younger that I couldn't
take a child away from everyone, so maybe I had one in a sling (or on
the hip) and one on the other hip, or next to me or whatever.
Sending a person away makes them feel rejected, not understood.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
S Drag-teine
I am going to try to pick both books up this week.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andrea
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 3:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
Well put Ren! You mentioned Alfie's book "Punished by Rewards", and I would
like to add that his book "Unconditional Parenting" touches on the P/R
dialogue, but from the parenting perspective. The book is wonderful for
anyone interested in a non-punishment based parenting style.Just thought I'd
chime in!
Andrea
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 8:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"I know that my discipline is still a still a form of punishment. I
ask my son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I
would like better ideas but I haven't found any."
Ah, but you're starting to see why it sucks.:)
Society says it's ok to treat children as inferior citizens. They are
not given the dignity and respect they so richly deserve by most
parents. You mentioned in the last post that you wouldn't question
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.
As far as sending a child to their room. Imagine if your dh did that
to you when you were in a pissy mood. Maybe you say something cutting
or inappropriate and he said "go sit in your room until you can be nicer".
OOH YUCK! Would it make you want to act nice? NO, it would make you
resent the hell out of him.
There ARE times I need to get a child away from other people. That can
be done with kindness though. Pick them up, hug them, tell them you
need to spend some time away from other people so the other person can
have their peace. Sit together, talk if the child feels like it,
sympathize with them, rub their back and let them know you care that
they're having a hard time.
Hugs and love go a long way to shifting inappropriate behavior.....and
it doesn't drive a wedge between you and the child. We all could use a
bit of sympathy when we're having a rough day....a little understanding.
There were times when the children were much younger that I couldn't
take a child away from everyone, so maybe I had one in a sling (or on
the hip) and one on the other hip, or next to me or whatever.
Sending a person away makes them feel rejected, not understood.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
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cation&c=6&s=185&.sig=pesFSb8HMcPS2_oNEoEwuw> school education
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<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics> " on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Andrea
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 3:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
Well put Ren! You mentioned Alfie's book "Punished by Rewards", and I would
like to add that his book "Unconditional Parenting" touches on the P/R
dialogue, but from the parenting perspective. The book is wonderful for
anyone interested in a non-punishment based parenting style.Just thought I'd
chime in!
Andrea
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 8:47 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"I know that my discipline is still a still a form of punishment. I
ask my son to go to his room until he can manage himself better. I
would like better ideas but I haven't found any."
Ah, but you're starting to see why it sucks.:)
Society says it's ok to treat children as inferior citizens. They are
not given the dignity and respect they so richly deserve by most
parents. You mentioned in the last post that you wouldn't question
another adult the way you question your child.....and your child knows
this.
As far as sending a child to their room. Imagine if your dh did that
to you when you were in a pissy mood. Maybe you say something cutting
or inappropriate and he said "go sit in your room until you can be nicer".
OOH YUCK! Would it make you want to act nice? NO, it would make you
resent the hell out of him.
There ARE times I need to get a child away from other people. That can
be done with kindness though. Pick them up, hug them, tell them you
need to spend some time away from other people so the other person can
have their peace. Sit together, talk if the child feels like it,
sympathize with them, rub their back and let them know you care that
they're having a hard time.
Hugs and love go a long way to shifting inappropriate behavior.....and
it doesn't drive a wedge between you and the child. We all could use a
bit of sympathy when we're having a rough day....a little understanding.
There were times when the children were much younger that I couldn't
take a child away from everyone, so maybe I had one in a sling (or on
the hip) and one on the other hip, or next to me or whatever.
Sending a person away makes them feel rejected, not understood.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
SPONSORED LINKS
Secondary
<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Secondary+school+education&w1=Secondary
+school+education&w2=Graduate+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=G
raduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+e
ducation&c=6&s=185&.sig=ZmtJ9eV8jDgLVf_rQitp3g> school education
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aduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+ed
ucation&c=6&s=185&.sig=_ar44lA2aVf7qUVJT2dfbA> school education
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te+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+educat
ion&c=6&s=185&.sig=igfV0UPAcfSvC6KUmUYY6w> school education
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n&w4=Graduate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+sc
hool+education&c=6&s=185&.sig=OHt1qK6J19R35_4ff-oJHg> school education
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te+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+educat
ion&c=6&s=185&.sig=BV3EOkp5uIRJ0eqRAZQNcw> school education
Chicago
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chool+education&w2=Graduate+school+education&w3=Home+school+education&w4=Gra
duate+school+education+online&w5=High+school+education&w6=Chicago+school+edu
cation&c=6&s=185&.sig=pesFSb8HMcPS2_oNEoEwuw> school education
_____
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
* Visit your group "unschoolingbasics
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics> " on the web.
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
<mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service.
_____
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
Ren Allen
" You mentioned Alfie's book "Punished by Rewards", and I would
like to add that his book "Unconditional Parenting" touches on the P/R
dialogue, but from the parenting perspective. The book is wonderful for
anyone interested in a non-punishment based parenting style.Just
thought I'd chime in!"
Thanks for the recommendation. I haven't read that one yet, but heard
that it's good. Maybe it would be better than "punished by rewards".
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
like to add that his book "Unconditional Parenting" touches on the P/R
dialogue, but from the parenting perspective. The book is wonderful for
anyone interested in a non-punishment based parenting style.Just
thought I'd chime in!"
Thanks for the recommendation. I haven't read that one yet, but heard
that it's good. Maybe it would be better than "punished by rewards".
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Ren Allen
The excerpt Heidi shared relates directly to some wisdome my Dad tried
to pass on to me when Trevor (now 16) was a wee toddler guy.
Sandra has it here: http://sandradodd.com/s/ren
For those that don't want to go read it, my Dad told me that every
time I got mad at Trevor, to just pick him up and hug him. WHA?
I didn't quite get it then, though it sounded nice.
Over the years, I have learned how to do that most of the time. Hugs
and love really do more to help difficult behavior than ANYthing else!
It's true.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
to pass on to me when Trevor (now 16) was a wee toddler guy.
Sandra has it here: http://sandradodd.com/s/ren
For those that don't want to go read it, my Dad told me that every
time I got mad at Trevor, to just pick him up and hug him. WHA?
I didn't quite get it then, though it sounded nice.
Over the years, I have learned how to do that most of the time. Hugs
and love really do more to help difficult behavior than ANYthing else!
It's true.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Danielle Conger
Ren Allen wrote:
time--basically until my youngest got old enough to be really tired of
getting carted around every where and begin to be really verbal about it.
Once that happened, after some serious soul-searching we began cutting
way back on our outings to honor his need to stay home and just *be*.
That said, however, there are still times when for one reason or another
we need to go out. The single greatest tool I've found for being in long
lines or difficult standing still (relatively speaking) and waiting
situations with young kids is "Simon Says."
My three will happily play "Simon Says," something we never play at
home, while waiting in a really long line. We rotate being "Simon" and
do really silly things. Before we know it, it's our turn at the
check-out, and we're out of there as gracefully as can be.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
>My kids were really easy to get errands done with for a long
> "The other is getting him to be still. Maybe he just isn't capable yet
> but sometimes I really need him to stop juggling around for like 10
> minutes so we can get stuff like errands done or waiting in line like
> at the grocery store."
>
> Unrealistic expectation probably. Can you re-direct the wiggling so
> it's simply done near you? I'm not sure why he would need to stand
> still in a line, unless he's going too far away from you. Maybe you
> could explain what the problem with movement is in that situation.
time--basically until my youngest got old enough to be really tired of
getting carted around every where and begin to be really verbal about it.
Once that happened, after some serious soul-searching we began cutting
way back on our outings to honor his need to stay home and just *be*.
That said, however, there are still times when for one reason or another
we need to go out. The single greatest tool I've found for being in long
lines or difficult standing still (relatively speaking) and waiting
situations with young kids is "Simon Says."
My three will happily play "Simon Says," something we never play at
home, while waiting in a really long line. We rotate being "Simon" and
do really silly things. Before we know it, it's our turn at the
check-out, and we're out of there as gracefully as can be.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 4, 2006, at 8:39 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Can you bring some interesting snacks or toys with you for thoseIsn't that what Game Boys were invented for?
> moments you really feel he needs to be more still?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danielle Conger
Ren Allen wrote:
bit--from my perspective, anyway.
I think there are two opposing goals in the op "discipline" idea. One is
the goal to have the child take some time until they're feeling more
social; the other is (maybe) to teach the child the lesson that they
need to be nice.
The first goal, imo, is not a misdirected goal--if a person is feeling
grumpy or cranky, then being in a less social situation is likely a good
plan. I do that when I'm feeling grumpy for whatever reason.
The issue arises, as I see it anyway, when goal one gets coupled with
goal two. The second goal is what, imo, makes the action "go to your
room" punitive. It turns a natural social conflict into a situation of
power and punishment.
If my dh is feeling grumpy, the best solution for the family is for him
to own that grumpiness and either make an emotional shift or to go putz
around in the barn, chop wood, or engage in some other solitary activity
rather than pick fights with those around him. Let's face it, we all
have those grumpy moments when we are likely to grump at people around
us and pick fights even (and sometimes especially) with those we love.
When I'm feeling really pms-y, I try to realize that right away--observe
it and know it about myself--and honor that feeling at the same time I
honor my relationships. I'll say to my kids that I'm feeling grumpy,
that I'm choosing to clean or garden or whatever so that I don't grump
at them, and I tell them where I'll be if they need me. I'll try to take
some solitary time to honor my own feelings and move through them, so
that I feel more available to family members at other times.
So, that's a really long-winded way of saying that in our family the
goal is to help our kids do this same thing--recognize and honor their
own feelings while at the same time respecting and preserving our
relationships.
There have been times when I've gently removed one of my children from a
space, but the goal has always been to help them honor and process their
emotions in a space that's conducive to that and respectful to the other
members of the household. So, when I remove one of my children or gently
suggest they go to a safe space and offer to go with them, the goal is
to help them process their strong feelings, not to make them stop having
those strong feelings or to isolate them if that's not a choice they'd
like to make. I'm there to be with them, comfort them, maintain a calm
presence in the face of their intense emotion, whatever.
I think it *is* important to do this in a way that respects other family
member's right to space. But that's not to say that the child's room is
the only space where this can happen. It could be my room, the computer
room, outside on the trampoline, where ever they can take the space and
time they need to express and move through their emotion. If I had an
only child, I imagine that I'd do a lot more of this honoring within the
space we were in. But, because I have three children, honoring the
intense emotion often coincides with removing ourselves to a different
space.
What I believe makes this non-punitive is my willingness to accompany
the child, so it does not amount to love withdrawal, to borrow Alfie
Kohn's term, and the fact that the child controls when s/he feels ready
to rejoin the social space.
I think the best measure of punitive/ non-punitive is to measure our own
behavior with a child versus how we would behave with a spouse or a
friend. If I had a friend who was bereaved or angry and chose to express
that in very verbal and public ways, I would gently and persuasively
attempt to get that person out of that public space and to a more
private space as quickly and quietly as possible. So, too, if my husband
seems grumpy or becomes particularly angry do I try to persuade him to
remove himself as gently and respectfully as possible, though I'm also
not adverse to putting myself less-tactfully between my dh and my
children in much the same way I'd stand between a dear friend and harm's
way.
Consciously and carefully thinking through actions with my children and
measuring them against the yardstick of how I might behave with an equal
has been an invaluable tool in my own journey in respectful parenting.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
>I totally agree with everything Ren already said but wanted to expand a
> There ARE times I need to get a child away from other people. That can
> be done with kindness though. Pick them up, hug them, tell them you
> need to spend some time away from other people so the other person can
> have their peace. Sit together, talk if the child feels like it,
> sympathize with them, rub their back and let them know you care that
> they're having a hard time.
bit--from my perspective, anyway.
I think there are two opposing goals in the op "discipline" idea. One is
the goal to have the child take some time until they're feeling more
social; the other is (maybe) to teach the child the lesson that they
need to be nice.
The first goal, imo, is not a misdirected goal--if a person is feeling
grumpy or cranky, then being in a less social situation is likely a good
plan. I do that when I'm feeling grumpy for whatever reason.
The issue arises, as I see it anyway, when goal one gets coupled with
goal two. The second goal is what, imo, makes the action "go to your
room" punitive. It turns a natural social conflict into a situation of
power and punishment.
If my dh is feeling grumpy, the best solution for the family is for him
to own that grumpiness and either make an emotional shift or to go putz
around in the barn, chop wood, or engage in some other solitary activity
rather than pick fights with those around him. Let's face it, we all
have those grumpy moments when we are likely to grump at people around
us and pick fights even (and sometimes especially) with those we love.
When I'm feeling really pms-y, I try to realize that right away--observe
it and know it about myself--and honor that feeling at the same time I
honor my relationships. I'll say to my kids that I'm feeling grumpy,
that I'm choosing to clean or garden or whatever so that I don't grump
at them, and I tell them where I'll be if they need me. I'll try to take
some solitary time to honor my own feelings and move through them, so
that I feel more available to family members at other times.
So, that's a really long-winded way of saying that in our family the
goal is to help our kids do this same thing--recognize and honor their
own feelings while at the same time respecting and preserving our
relationships.
There have been times when I've gently removed one of my children from a
space, but the goal has always been to help them honor and process their
emotions in a space that's conducive to that and respectful to the other
members of the household. So, when I remove one of my children or gently
suggest they go to a safe space and offer to go with them, the goal is
to help them process their strong feelings, not to make them stop having
those strong feelings or to isolate them if that's not a choice they'd
like to make. I'm there to be with them, comfort them, maintain a calm
presence in the face of their intense emotion, whatever.
I think it *is* important to do this in a way that respects other family
member's right to space. But that's not to say that the child's room is
the only space where this can happen. It could be my room, the computer
room, outside on the trampoline, where ever they can take the space and
time they need to express and move through their emotion. If I had an
only child, I imagine that I'd do a lot more of this honoring within the
space we were in. But, because I have three children, honoring the
intense emotion often coincides with removing ourselves to a different
space.
What I believe makes this non-punitive is my willingness to accompany
the child, so it does not amount to love withdrawal, to borrow Alfie
Kohn's term, and the fact that the child controls when s/he feels ready
to rejoin the social space.
I think the best measure of punitive/ non-punitive is to measure our own
behavior with a child versus how we would behave with a spouse or a
friend. If I had a friend who was bereaved or angry and chose to express
that in very verbal and public ways, I would gently and persuasively
attempt to get that person out of that public space and to a more
private space as quickly and quietly as possible. So, too, if my husband
seems grumpy or becomes particularly angry do I try to persuade him to
remove himself as gently and respectfully as possible, though I'm also
not adverse to putting myself less-tactfully between my dh and my
children in much the same way I'd stand between a dear friend and harm's
way.
Consciously and carefully thinking through actions with my children and
measuring them against the yardstick of how I might behave with an equal
has been an invaluable tool in my own journey in respectful parenting.
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
Danielle Conger
Pamela Sorooshian wrote:
happy to carry him around in to shut out the world with the hugs,
closeness and extra fabric that hides him, but this still is not enough
many times.
Honoring his need to be home and "Simon Says" are the two best tools
I've found. Oh, and a bag of Oreos helps, too, sometimes. ;)
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
>When they work, yes, but my youngest has a gameboy, a sling that I'm
> On Feb 4, 2006, at 8:39 AM, Ren Allen wrote:
>
> > Can you bring some interesting snacks or toys with you for those
> > moments you really feel he needs to be more still?
>
> Isn't that what Game Boys were invented for?
>
happy to carry him around in to shut out the world with the hugs,
closeness and extra fabric that hides him, but this still is not enough
many times.
Honoring his need to be home and "Simon Says" are the two best tools
I've found. Oh, and a bag of Oreos helps, too, sometimes. ;)
--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (7), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha
Nicole Willoughby
Yes, sometimes I contradict what I believe with the way I act because I lack
the tools and sometimes the patience.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ok this is prob not going to be much help in terms of what to actually do about it but I can so very much relate to this.
Scenario ........I have a nonverbal autistic four year old , a two year old and a six year old. ITs 3 in the afternoon. My 4 year old has had 3 baths today and Ive cleaned 3 messes because no matter what sort of colthing I put him in he takes off his diaper and smears it all over himself and the walls the minute he soils himself. The 2 year old is not feeling well and choose not to nap so she is super tired and cranky and doing nothing but following me around and whining. Id like to just sit down and snuggle her but cant because Im cleaning up poop. The 6 year old is bouncing off the walls after sitting at school all day. There is also the unexpected visit from the landlord. While this is happening the 2 year old goes potty and washes her hands and I hear uh oh! I go find that she stuffed toilet paper down the sink drain then washed her hands.
I find myself with no patience left . I feel guilty about removing myself from my children even more but I just have to go take a mommy time out. If I dont Ill start yelling. Its the last thing I want to do because I was yelled at most of my childhood and I hate nothing more than being yelled at.
Nicole
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the tools and sometimes the patience.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ok this is prob not going to be much help in terms of what to actually do about it but I can so very much relate to this.
Scenario ........I have a nonverbal autistic four year old , a two year old and a six year old. ITs 3 in the afternoon. My 4 year old has had 3 baths today and Ive cleaned 3 messes because no matter what sort of colthing I put him in he takes off his diaper and smears it all over himself and the walls the minute he soils himself. The 2 year old is not feeling well and choose not to nap so she is super tired and cranky and doing nothing but following me around and whining. Id like to just sit down and snuggle her but cant because Im cleaning up poop. The 6 year old is bouncing off the walls after sitting at school all day. There is also the unexpected visit from the landlord. While this is happening the 2 year old goes potty and washes her hands and I hear uh oh! I go find that she stuffed toilet paper down the sink drain then washed her hands.
I find myself with no patience left . I feel guilty about removing myself from my children even more but I just have to go take a mommy time out. If I dont Ill start yelling. Its the last thing I want to do because I was yelled at most of my childhood and I hate nothing more than being yelled at.
Nicole
---------------------------------
Brings words and photos together (easily) with
PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
" But that's not to say that the child's room is
the only space where this can happen. It could be my room, the computer
room, outside on the trampoline, where ever they can take the space and
time they need to express and move through their emotion."
I'm glad you brought this up. When I remove someone from a volatile
situation, it's pretty unusual that we go to the child's room
actually. Sierra will choose her room for some private time on her
own, but when I intervene it could be the living room, my room or even
outside. Typically it's Jalen that needs to be moved away from people
for a short time. And typically, once he has some hugs and love he's
ready to go back.
I once read about how human beings tend to associate certain
activities with spaces in the home and it can bring about certain
emotions. Using a child's bedroom as a place of punishment is really
awful if you think about it....beyond the punishment being a
not-so-great thing, associating it with a space you want your child to
feel comfort and peace in, isn't so good either.
I prefer all of the spaces in our house be associated with good
feelings.:) When we have rough moments, those comforting associations
with space can help us shift into a better place.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
the only space where this can happen. It could be my room, the computer
room, outside on the trampoline, where ever they can take the space and
time they need to express and move through their emotion."
I'm glad you brought this up. When I remove someone from a volatile
situation, it's pretty unusual that we go to the child's room
actually. Sierra will choose her room for some private time on her
own, but when I intervene it could be the living room, my room or even
outside. Typically it's Jalen that needs to be moved away from people
for a short time. And typically, once he has some hugs and love he's
ready to go back.
I once read about how human beings tend to associate certain
activities with spaces in the home and it can bring about certain
emotions. Using a child's bedroom as a place of punishment is really
awful if you think about it....beyond the punishment being a
not-so-great thing, associating it with a space you want your child to
feel comfort and peace in, isn't so good either.
I prefer all of the spaces in our house be associated with good
feelings.:) When we have rough moments, those comforting associations
with space can help us shift into a better place.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 4, 2006, at 6:38 PM, Nicole Willoughby wrote:
Don't feel guilty about not being always able to be everything to
everyone in your family - get some help. Even another set of eyes
would be great - they'd notice your 4 yo making a mess before it got
too bad, they'd sit and read to your little one for a while, or
whatever you need. I had a girl come help me after I had my second
child and I was working from home - she was pregnant, herself and it
was a good situation for both of us, for about 6 months or so. Don't
underestimate how much difference it can make to have another adult
present, even just for a couple of hours.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I find myself with no patience left . I feel guilty aboutYou sound like the perfect candidate for a mother's helper, Nicole.
> removing myself from my children even more but I just have to go
> take a mommy time out. If I dont Ill start yelling. Its the last
> thing I want to do because I was yelled at most of my childhood and
> I hate nothing more than being yelled at.
Don't feel guilty about not being always able to be everything to
everyone in your family - get some help. Even another set of eyes
would be great - they'd notice your 4 yo making a mess before it got
too bad, they'd sit and read to your little one for a while, or
whatever you need. I had a girl come help me after I had my second
child and I was working from home - she was pregnant, herself and it
was a good situation for both of us, for about 6 months or so. Don't
underestimate how much difference it can make to have another adult
present, even just for a couple of hours.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 4, 2006, at 10:21 AM, S Drag-teine wrote:
make him behave the way you want to.
It will help to see him as doing the best he can with the tools and
skills that he has. Give him the information he needs so he can use
it when he is able "A quiet voice will help me understand what you're
asking for better." But you may need to keep doing this for a while
until he's able to stop and think before he acts.
(When I get frustrated with my daughter choosing the emotional route
rather than the logical route, I try to remember some senseless
choices I've made even knowing full well what the better choice is.
(My senseless choices usually involve food ;-) Like taking a second
piece of cheesecake or eating half a bag of Oreos!) If *I* can't
always be sensible, how can I expect someone who has only been on the
planet for a few years to always master their emotions and make the
more social choice?)
Look at him as trying to get something he doesn't yet have the
appropriate skills for. You can't give him those skills. You can't
make him understand. But he will when he's able. So once you've done
what you can, then help him.
If he's hurting his sister, help her be safe and help him figure out
a better way to play with her.
thinking you like the baby more than him. If you get angry at him
(though I know you didn't that time) when he's trying to play or
trying to get something in an inappropriate way, he's going to feel
you think the baby's feelings are more important. If he wants to
play, help him figure out how to make the baby smile. If he wants
something else and is using the baby as a means to that end, help him
get what it is he wants.
A really good book is Siblings Without Rivalry by Adele Faber and
Elaine Mazlish. It's a very easy read.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Each time II think you're looking for the magic thing that will change him and
> very calmly explain to him that I don't yell at him and I would
> like him not
> to yell at me.
make him behave the way you want to.
It will help to see him as doing the best he can with the tools and
skills that he has. Give him the information he needs so he can use
it when he is able "A quiet voice will help me understand what you're
asking for better." But you may need to keep doing this for a while
until he's able to stop and think before he acts.
(When I get frustrated with my daughter choosing the emotional route
rather than the logical route, I try to remember some senseless
choices I've made even knowing full well what the better choice is.
(My senseless choices usually involve food ;-) Like taking a second
piece of cheesecake or eating half a bag of Oreos!) If *I* can't
always be sensible, how can I expect someone who has only been on the
planet for a few years to always master their emotions and make the
more social choice?)
Look at him as trying to get something he doesn't yet have the
appropriate skills for. You can't give him those skills. You can't
make him understand. But he will when he's able. So once you've done
what you can, then help him.
If he's hurting his sister, help her be safe and help him figure out
a better way to play with her.
> I held her to me and was about to say something to himI can see this as natural but I can also see this as leading him to
thinking you like the baby more than him. If you get angry at him
(though I know you didn't that time) when he's trying to play or
trying to get something in an inappropriate way, he's going to feel
you think the baby's feelings are more important. If he wants to
play, help him figure out how to make the baby smile. If he wants
something else and is using the baby as a means to that end, help him
get what it is he wants.
A really good book is Siblings Without Rivalry by Adele Faber and
Elaine Mazlish. It's a very easy read.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Feb 5, 2006, at 6:36 AM, Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
you're expecting that you can explain what you want and that's going
to change him."
This is something very worth thinking about now, while he's so
little, because the same principle will hold when he's 15 as when
he's 5 -- "He will do what he wants to do." Parents who restrict and
discipline think they can control their kids. Ha. We all know kids
who are little angels around their parents and holy terrors away from
their parents.
So - recognizing that we don't control them (at least not for long)
is Step 1. The next thing seems to be that people think they should
be able to talk them into behaving as the parent wants. Nah.
The radical unschooling parent's role is best described as "create a
workable environment." Set things up so that kids CAN choose to do
what they want and parents can be comfortable with the choices. Work
toward THAT. If a kid is repeatedly engaging in some behavior that
the parent can't tolerate, then the PARENT is messing up by setting
up the situation or allowing the situation to exist, over and over.
Use your greater knowledge, greater power, wider perspective and far
greater resources to change the circumstances. Be creative. Be
clever. Be smart. Be kind and loving and make life good for your
child. They'll pay you back with their own kindness and respect and
caring and, when they are teens and the decisions matter a lot more,
they'll be far more willing to consider your input.
When you very calmly explain to him that you don't yell and would
like him not to yell - you're telling him something he already knows.
He KNOWS you don't want him to be loud - that is undoubtedly WHY he
is being loud, to get your attention. It is insulting and infuriating
to be told something you already know, in the first place, and,
second, there isn't much MORE infuriating than being frustrated and
upset enough to raise your voice and having the other person tell you
to calm down, instead of responding to the real issue.
If he's being loud just for the fun of it - then you're a spoilsport
and your expectations are unreasonable. Kids ARE loud. Let it be.
Have fun with it. He's a little little boy.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> Each time I very calmly explain to him that I don't yell at himJoyce wrote that. What I had ready to send started with, "I think
>> and I would
>> like him not to yell at me.
>
> I think you're looking for the magic thing that will change him and
> make him behave the way you want to.
you're expecting that you can explain what you want and that's going
to change him."
This is something very worth thinking about now, while he's so
little, because the same principle will hold when he's 15 as when
he's 5 -- "He will do what he wants to do." Parents who restrict and
discipline think they can control their kids. Ha. We all know kids
who are little angels around their parents and holy terrors away from
their parents.
So - recognizing that we don't control them (at least not for long)
is Step 1. The next thing seems to be that people think they should
be able to talk them into behaving as the parent wants. Nah.
The radical unschooling parent's role is best described as "create a
workable environment." Set things up so that kids CAN choose to do
what they want and parents can be comfortable with the choices. Work
toward THAT. If a kid is repeatedly engaging in some behavior that
the parent can't tolerate, then the PARENT is messing up by setting
up the situation or allowing the situation to exist, over and over.
Use your greater knowledge, greater power, wider perspective and far
greater resources to change the circumstances. Be creative. Be
clever. Be smart. Be kind and loving and make life good for your
child. They'll pay you back with their own kindness and respect and
caring and, when they are teens and the decisions matter a lot more,
they'll be far more willing to consider your input.
When you very calmly explain to him that you don't yell and would
like him not to yell - you're telling him something he already knows.
He KNOWS you don't want him to be loud - that is undoubtedly WHY he
is being loud, to get your attention. It is insulting and infuriating
to be told something you already know, in the first place, and,
second, there isn't much MORE infuriating than being frustrated and
upset enough to raise your voice and having the other person tell you
to calm down, instead of responding to the real issue.
If he's being loud just for the fun of it - then you're a spoilsport
and your expectations are unreasonable. Kids ARE loud. Let it be.
Have fun with it. He's a little little boy.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
S Drag-teine
Wow, big hug out to you hun!
Yes, it was helpful because it reminds of what my grandfather used to tell
me - no matter how bad your day is going there is always someone's day that
is worse. It is also helpful because it reminds me that everyone has bad
days and that it is okay to loose your patience. Most of my childhood
memories are of a lot of yelling - my mom's creedo is that she yelled a lot
but once she yelled for five minutes it was over. The yelling may have been
over but I still very small when someone yells and I don't want my kids to
feel like that.
Do you teach your son sign language? I used to do therapy for kids with
autism when I was in college and I taught sign language. It was very
rewarding to see a child who was frustrated because she knew what she wanted
but couldn't tell anyone.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nicole Willoughby
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
Yes, sometimes I contradict what I believe with the way I act because I lack
the tools and sometimes the patience.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ok this is prob not going to be much help in terms of what to actually do
about it but I can so very much relate to this.
Scenario ........I have a nonverbal autistic four year old , a two year
old and a six year old. ITs 3 in the afternoon. My 4 year old has had 3
baths today and Ive cleaned 3 messes because no matter what sort of colthing
I put him in he takes off his diaper and smears it all over himself and the
walls the minute he soils himself. The 2 year old is not feeling well and
choose not to nap so she is super tired and cranky and doing nothing but
following me around and whining. Id like to just sit down and snuggle her
but cant because Im cleaning up poop. The 6 year old is bouncing off the
walls after sitting at school all day. There is also the unexpected visit
from the landlord. While this is happening the 2 year old goes potty and
washes her hands and I hear uh oh! I go find that she stuffed toilet paper
down the sink drain then washed her hands.
I find myself with no patience left . I feel guilty about removing myself
from my children even more but I just have to go take a mommy time out. If I
dont Ill start yelling. Its the last thing I want to do because I was yelled
at most of my childhood and I hate nothing more than being yelled at.
Nicole
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Yes, it was helpful because it reminds of what my grandfather used to tell
me - no matter how bad your day is going there is always someone's day that
is worse. It is also helpful because it reminds me that everyone has bad
days and that it is okay to loose your patience. Most of my childhood
memories are of a lot of yelling - my mom's creedo is that she yelled a lot
but once she yelled for five minutes it was over. The yelling may have been
over but I still very small when someone yells and I don't want my kids to
feel like that.
Do you teach your son sign language? I used to do therapy for kids with
autism when I was in college and I taught sign language. It was very
rewarding to see a child who was frustrated because she knew what she wanted
but couldn't tell anyone.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Nicole Willoughby
Sent: Saturday, February 04, 2006 9:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
Yes, sometimes I contradict what I believe with the way I act because I lack
the tools and sometimes the patience.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Ok this is prob not going to be much help in terms of what to actually do
about it but I can so very much relate to this.
Scenario ........I have a nonverbal autistic four year old , a two year
old and a six year old. ITs 3 in the afternoon. My 4 year old has had 3
baths today and Ive cleaned 3 messes because no matter what sort of colthing
I put him in he takes off his diaper and smears it all over himself and the
walls the minute he soils himself. The 2 year old is not feeling well and
choose not to nap so she is super tired and cranky and doing nothing but
following me around and whining. Id like to just sit down and snuggle her
but cant because Im cleaning up poop. The 6 year old is bouncing off the
walls after sitting at school all day. There is also the unexpected visit
from the landlord. While this is happening the 2 year old goes potty and
washes her hands and I hear uh oh! I go find that she stuffed toilet paper
down the sink drain then washed her hands.
I find myself with no patience left . I feel guilty about removing myself
from my children even more but I just have to go take a mommy time out. If I
dont Ill start yelling. Its the last thing I want to do because I was yelled
at most of my childhood and I hate nothing more than being yelled at.
Nicole
---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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S Drag-teine
My son going to his room is more then often his choice. I ask him can you
calm down a little - usually because he is scaring his sister because he is
so off the wall - or do you need to go to your room until you can be a
little calmer?
There are times that for his safety and my sanity that I have sent him to
his room because I am going to snap if I can't get five minutes peace.
With your help though I am see that neither is a good solution and we will
work on finding new tools.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 12:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
" But that's not to say that the child's room is
the only space where this can happen. It could be my room, the computer
room, outside on the trampoline, where ever they can take the space and
time they need to express and move through their emotion."
I'm glad you brought this up. When I remove someone from a volatile
situation, it's pretty unusual that we go to the child's room
actually. Sierra will choose her room for some private time on her
own, but when I intervene it could be the living room, my room or even
outside. Typically it's Jalen that needs to be moved away from people
for a short time. And typically, once he has some hugs and love he's
ready to go back.
I once read about how human beings tend to associate certain
activities with spaces in the home and it can bring about certain
emotions. Using a child's bedroom as a place of punishment is really
awful if you think about it....beyond the punishment being a
not-so-great thing, associating it with a space you want your child to
feel comfort and peace in, isn't so good either.
I prefer all of the spaces in our house be associated with good
feelings.:) When we have rough moments, those comforting associations
with space can help us shift into a better place.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
calm down a little - usually because he is scaring his sister because he is
so off the wall - or do you need to go to your room until you can be a
little calmer?
There are times that for his safety and my sanity that I have sent him to
his room because I am going to snap if I can't get five minutes peace.
With your help though I am see that neither is a good solution and we will
work on finding new tools.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 12:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
" But that's not to say that the child's room is
the only space where this can happen. It could be my room, the computer
room, outside on the trampoline, where ever they can take the space and
time they need to express and move through their emotion."
I'm glad you brought this up. When I remove someone from a volatile
situation, it's pretty unusual that we go to the child's room
actually. Sierra will choose her room for some private time on her
own, but when I intervene it could be the living room, my room or even
outside. Typically it's Jalen that needs to be moved away from people
for a short time. And typically, once he has some hugs and love he's
ready to go back.
I once read about how human beings tend to associate certain
activities with spaces in the home and it can bring about certain
emotions. Using a child's bedroom as a place of punishment is really
awful if you think about it....beyond the punishment being a
not-so-great thing, associating it with a space you want your child to
feel comfort and peace in, isn't so good either.
I prefer all of the spaces in our house be associated with good
feelings.:) When we have rough moments, those comforting associations
with space can help us shift into a better place.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
S Drag-teine
"A quiet voice will help me understand what you're asking for better."
I love this sentence! I have a partial hearing loss and it is very difficult
for me to understand him if he is talking very softly, whining or screaming
and I try over and over to explain that to him but maybe I need to simplify
it for him in just one sentence. Although, I think I am going to call it a
calm voice.
" he's going to feel you think the baby's feelings are more important."
I try very hard to divide my time between the two and my daughter is very
jealous of my son giving me a hug or any attention I give him. I tell her
that he is my baby too and continue to give Quentin attention.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
I love this sentence! I have a partial hearing loss and it is very difficult
for me to understand him if he is talking very softly, whining or screaming
and I try over and over to explain that to him but maybe I need to simplify
it for him in just one sentence. Although, I think I am going to call it a
calm voice.
" he's going to feel you think the baby's feelings are more important."
I try very hard to divide my time between the two and my daughter is very
jealous of my son giving me a hug or any attention I give him. I tell her
that he is my baby too and continue to give Quentin attention.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
On Feb 4, 2006, at 10:21 AM, S Drag-teine wrote:
> Each time I
> very calmly explain to him that I don't yell at him and I would
> like him not
> to yell at me.
I think you're looking for the magic thing that will change him and
make him behave the way you want to.
It will help to see him as doing the best he can with the tools and
skills that he has. Give him the information he needs so he can use
it when he is able "A quiet voice will help me understand what you're
asking for better." But you may need to keep doing this for a while
until he's able to stop and think before he acts.
(When I get frustrated with my daughter choosing the emotional route
rather than the logical route, I try to remember some senseless
choices I've made even knowing full well what the better choice is.
(My senseless choices usually involve food ;-) Like taking a second
piece of cheesecake or eating half a bag of Oreos!) If *I* can't
always be sensible, how can I expect someone who has only been on the
planet for a few years to always master their emotions and make the
more social choice?)
Look at him as trying to get something he doesn't yet have the
appropriate skills for. You can't give him those skills. You can't
make him understand. But he will when he's able. So once you've done
what you can, then help him.
If he's hurting his sister, help her be safe and help him figure out
a better way to play with her.
> I held her to me and was about to say something to him
I can see this as natural but I can also see this as leading him to
thinking you like the baby more than him. If you get angry at him
(though I know you didn't that time) when he's trying to play or
trying to get something in an inappropriate way, he's going to feel
you think the baby's feelings are more important. If he wants to
play, help him figure out how to make the baby smile. If he wants
something else and is using the baby as a means to that end, help him
get what it is he wants.
A really good book is Siblings Without Rivalry by Adele Faber and
Elaine Mazlish. It's a very easy read.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
Mother Earth (Tyra)
Pam,
I really agree with what you are saying. I learned early with ds 1 who is now 5 yrs old that I really had no control over him. People used to think I was crazy for saying that but ultimately children will always choose their behavior because that is what people do. However, I can relate to Joyce. When ds1 was younger, especially pre-verbal, he would hit me when he was angry. Sometimes I handled it appropriately and other times I lost it as I was clueless and shocked that I had a child who hit considering that I did not hit him. However, as he got older and had more words the hitting declined. But one day I said told him that we do not relate to one another with hitting. I told him that I did not hit him and that I did not want him to hit me because I do not liked to be hit. In his face I saw something click, he got it and stopped hitting. He is the type of child who I guess is rather logical and so that approach has worked very well with him. It is all about mutual respect because I have no problems with him calling me out if do something that infringes on his respect.
DS2 is proving to be more challenging in a way. He hits, too. It has bothered me way less this time around because I understand it. What ds2 is showing me is that the logical approach will not work for him. I HATE being hit by my children, and I must admit, especially in public. I do feel in a way he is doing what some children do. I don't see his behavior as anti-social or anything and I am even beginning to realize that often times when he is sleepy, he is uncontrollable with the hitting and pushing. I don't know anyone who has experienced a child who hits who can make me feel comfortable that this will go away in time. I am at a place where it is getting crucial for me because he is quickly moving towards 3 yrs old. I have to be honest with you all, I will be damn before I have a big child hitting me. It is okay now that he is little but I am just not going to have it once he gets older. Call it conditionings, call it controlling, call me disrespectful, but I work hard to be a loving parent, and I am one who really has to WORK HARD. I have control and anger issues that I work to transform everyday so that I am a loving and available mother. So, in a way I think that as he gets older, he is going to have to express himself in a different way because I am getting to a place where I am growing weary. He is little still and I am dealing with it. I have even tried to soften him down during those times by giving him loving and nursing him. I guess what I am wanting to know from others who understand and/or have experience with this, will he grow out of it as he gets more verbal? He is slower with coming into his speech than my older son. Or what internal process can I tap into to help me better understand so that I can help my son express himself differently?
I appreciate your input and understanding.
Peace
Tyra
I really agree with what you are saying. I learned early with ds 1 who is now 5 yrs old that I really had no control over him. People used to think I was crazy for saying that but ultimately children will always choose their behavior because that is what people do. However, I can relate to Joyce. When ds1 was younger, especially pre-verbal, he would hit me when he was angry. Sometimes I handled it appropriately and other times I lost it as I was clueless and shocked that I had a child who hit considering that I did not hit him. However, as he got older and had more words the hitting declined. But one day I said told him that we do not relate to one another with hitting. I told him that I did not hit him and that I did not want him to hit me because I do not liked to be hit. In his face I saw something click, he got it and stopped hitting. He is the type of child who I guess is rather logical and so that approach has worked very well with him. It is all about mutual respect because I have no problems with him calling me out if do something that infringes on his respect.
DS2 is proving to be more challenging in a way. He hits, too. It has bothered me way less this time around because I understand it. What ds2 is showing me is that the logical approach will not work for him. I HATE being hit by my children, and I must admit, especially in public. I do feel in a way he is doing what some children do. I don't see his behavior as anti-social or anything and I am even beginning to realize that often times when he is sleepy, he is uncontrollable with the hitting and pushing. I don't know anyone who has experienced a child who hits who can make me feel comfortable that this will go away in time. I am at a place where it is getting crucial for me because he is quickly moving towards 3 yrs old. I have to be honest with you all, I will be damn before I have a big child hitting me. It is okay now that he is little but I am just not going to have it once he gets older. Call it conditionings, call it controlling, call me disrespectful, but I work hard to be a loving parent, and I am one who really has to WORK HARD. I have control and anger issues that I work to transform everyday so that I am a loving and available mother. So, in a way I think that as he gets older, he is going to have to express himself in a different way because I am getting to a place where I am growing weary. He is little still and I am dealing with it. I have even tried to soften him down during those times by giving him loving and nursing him. I guess what I am wanting to know from others who understand and/or have experience with this, will he grow out of it as he gets more verbal? He is slower with coming into his speech than my older son. Or what internal process can I tap into to help me better understand so that I can help my son express himself differently?
I appreciate your input and understanding.
Peace
Tyra
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 1:07 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
So - recognizing that we don't control them (at least not for long)
is Step 1. The next thing seems to be that people think they should
be able to talk them into behaving as the parent wants. Nah.
When you very calmly explain to him that you don't yell and would
like him not to yell - you're telling him something he already knows.
He KNOWS you don't want him to be loud - that is undoubtedly WHY he
is being loud, to get your attention. It is insulting and infuriating
to be told something you already know, in the first place, and,
second, there isn't much MORE infuriating than being frustrated and
upset enough to raise your voice and having the other person tell you
to calm down, instead of responding to the real issue.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"There are times that for his safety and my sanity that I have sent
him to his room because I am going to snap if I can't get five minutes
peace."
Hey, steps in the right direction. Yelling is usually better than
hitting, sending someone away is better than yelling....but now you
can kick it up a bunch of notches.:)
Love is better than all of the above, it takes some real patience with
yourself and your history to be able to shift into a place of love
when something triggers old tapes. It can be done though...
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
him to his room because I am going to snap if I can't get five minutes
peace."
Hey, steps in the right direction. Yelling is usually better than
hitting, sending someone away is better than yelling....but now you
can kick it up a bunch of notches.:)
Love is better than all of the above, it takes some real patience with
yourself and your history to be able to shift into a place of love
when something triggers old tapes. It can be done though...
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
S Drag-teine
Sorry, I sent the last a little too soon... today has been kind of hectic
and my daughter actually napped in a bed today so I got to cuddle with my
son...
"If he's hurting his sister, help her be safe and help him figure out a
better way to play with her."
I don't want anyone to think that he does this deliberately. He loves his
sister and usually wants to cuddle and hug her possible to death. She is a
strong little cookie, red hair with the attitude to match and while in out
and out fight her brother would probably win she would get him as much.
Often the situation is not one where he has hurt her but more upset her
because he wants her to do the opposite of what she wants to do.
She knows how to stand up to herself and if I don't help develop a balance
between them I foresee some major battles between them. Both my sister and I
are redheads and our childhood was a constant battle of wills which has kept
a breach to this day. While we work to build a better relationship between
us, I want to help my kids never to have to go through that.
I see I won't have to search for books to read for a while. I am going to
look for a copy of Siblings Without Rivalry by Adele Faber and Elaine
Mazlish as well.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
and my daughter actually napped in a bed today so I got to cuddle with my
son...
"If he's hurting his sister, help her be safe and help him figure out a
better way to play with her."
I don't want anyone to think that he does this deliberately. He loves his
sister and usually wants to cuddle and hug her possible to death. She is a
strong little cookie, red hair with the attitude to match and while in out
and out fight her brother would probably win she would get him as much.
Often the situation is not one where he has hurt her but more upset her
because he wants her to do the opposite of what she wants to do.
She knows how to stand up to herself and if I don't help develop a balance
between them I foresee some major battles between them. Both my sister and I
are redheads and our childhood was a constant battle of wills which has kept
a breach to this day. While we work to build a better relationship between
us, I want to help my kids never to have to go through that.
I see I won't have to search for books to read for a while. I am going to
look for a copy of Siblings Without Rivalry by Adele Faber and Elaine
Mazlish as well.
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joyce Fetteroll
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 9:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
On Feb 4, 2006, at 10:21 AM, S Drag-teine wrote:
> Each time I
> very calmly explain to him that I don't yell at him and I would
> like him not
> to yell at me.
I think you're looking for the magic thing that will change him and
make him behave the way you want to.
It will help to see him as doing the best he can with the tools and
skills that he has. Give him the information he needs so he can use
it when he is able "A quiet voice will help me understand what you're
asking for better." But you may need to keep doing this for a while
until he's able to stop and think before he acts.
(When I get frustrated with my daughter choosing the emotional route
rather than the logical route, I try to remember some senseless
choices I've made even knowing full well what the better choice is.
(My senseless choices usually involve food ;-) Like taking a second
piece of cheesecake or eating half a bag of Oreos!) If *I* can't
always be sensible, how can I expect someone who has only been on the
planet for a few years to always master their emotions and make the
more social choice?)
Look at him as trying to get something he doesn't yet have the
appropriate skills for. You can't give him those skills. You can't
make him understand. But he will when he's able. So once you've done
what you can, then help him.
If he's hurting his sister, help her be safe and help him figure out
a better way to play with her.
> I held her to me and was about to say something to him
I can see this as natural but I can also see this as leading him to
thinking you like the baby more than him. If you get angry at him
(though I know you didn't that time) when he's trying to play or
trying to get something in an inappropriate way, he's going to feel
you think the baby's feelings are more important. If he wants to
play, help him figure out how to make the baby smile. If he wants
something else and is using the baby as a means to that end, help him
get what it is he wants.
A really good book is Siblings Without Rivalry by Adele Faber and
Elaine Mazlish. It's a very easy read.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Links
S Drag-teine
For the past couple days I have been going through stuff we don't need like
workbooks I got eons ago and have never used and packing up stuff that my
daughter isn't ready for and my son has out grown. I figure I will slowly
start introducing her to stuff I packed up in six months or so and if not
pack it back up and wait longer. So my son has spent a lot of time at the
table playing with things we couldn't get to because there was too much
stuff.
Last night he didn't want to go to bed, my DH wasn't feeling well and was in
bed and he was playing nicely at the table so I didn't make an issue of it.
These days, I only really encourage him going to bed or coming to cuddle on
the couch when he is getting tired and being tired he gets frustrated.
Finally, I told him he needed to go get ready for bed and pick a movie
because everyone was going to bed. He got up, got ready for bed, picked a
movie and went to bed after kisses and hugs of course.
Also, today, his Uncle "Shaggy" came over and he usually bounces off the
walls in excitement. My DH warned him if he didn't calm down he would need
to go to his room. He has just finished up some finger painting so I asked
him to come to the kitchen. Asked if he was done - he was and had washed his
hands he told me. I said that I knew he was excited to see Uncle "Shaggy"
and instead of bouncing around why didn't he go give him a big hug and when
Dad and Uncle "Shaggy" got finished catching up that Uncle "Shaggy" would
spend some time with him.
It worked! It worked! I know someone is laughing at me and that is okay. It
isn't that I didn't think it wouldn't work but I guess I thought it would
take more time. He gave him a hug ended up bumping his nose and had to be
loved up a little but was otherwise okay and calmed down. After a little
catch up, Uncle "Shaggy" read my DS a story - no more bouncing off the wall
and everyone is happy!
YEAH!
Shannon
~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~.~>|<~
I'm glad we switched!
We are now safer and healthier, using toxic-free products and saving money,
too.
Call (212) 990-6214 for a 10 minute prerecorded presentation or contact me
directly.
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 3:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"There are times that for his safety and my sanity that I have sent
him to his room because I am going to snap if I can't get five minutes
peace."
Hey, steps in the right direction. Yelling is usually better than
hitting, sending someone away is better than yelling....but now you
can kick it up a bunch of notches.:)
Love is better than all of the above, it takes some real patience with
yourself and your history to be able to shift into a place of love
when something triggers old tapes. It can be done though...
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
workbooks I got eons ago and have never used and packing up stuff that my
daughter isn't ready for and my son has out grown. I figure I will slowly
start introducing her to stuff I packed up in six months or so and if not
pack it back up and wait longer. So my son has spent a lot of time at the
table playing with things we couldn't get to because there was too much
stuff.
Last night he didn't want to go to bed, my DH wasn't feeling well and was in
bed and he was playing nicely at the table so I didn't make an issue of it.
These days, I only really encourage him going to bed or coming to cuddle on
the couch when he is getting tired and being tired he gets frustrated.
Finally, I told him he needed to go get ready for bed and pick a movie
because everyone was going to bed. He got up, got ready for bed, picked a
movie and went to bed after kisses and hugs of course.
Also, today, his Uncle "Shaggy" came over and he usually bounces off the
walls in excitement. My DH warned him if he didn't calm down he would need
to go to his room. He has just finished up some finger painting so I asked
him to come to the kitchen. Asked if he was done - he was and had washed his
hands he told me. I said that I knew he was excited to see Uncle "Shaggy"
and instead of bouncing around why didn't he go give him a big hug and when
Dad and Uncle "Shaggy" got finished catching up that Uncle "Shaggy" would
spend some time with him.
It worked! It worked! I know someone is laughing at me and that is okay. It
isn't that I didn't think it wouldn't work but I guess I thought it would
take more time. He gave him a hug ended up bumping his nose and had to be
loved up a little but was otherwise okay and calmed down. After a little
catch up, Uncle "Shaggy" read my DS a story - no more bouncing off the wall
and everyone is happy!
YEAH!
Shannon
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-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Ren Allen
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 3:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
"There are times that for his safety and my sanity that I have sent
him to his room because I am going to snap if I can't get five minutes
peace."
Hey, steps in the right direction. Yelling is usually better than
hitting, sending someone away is better than yelling....but now you
can kick it up a bunch of notches.:)
Love is better than all of the above, it takes some real patience with
yourself and your history to be able to shift into a place of love
when something triggers old tapes. It can be done though...
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Yahoo! Groups Links
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 5, 2006, at 5:16 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
It just means he wants something and either 1) he can't figure out
how to get it or 2) more acceptable ways of asking are being ignored.
might unknowingly be creating a wall between them. If you step in to
defend your daughter, your son will see that as taking her side
against him. The book will help you find ways to help them both
without giving them the idea you're taking sides.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't want anyone to think that he does this deliberately.And if he were doing it deliberately it isn't a sign of a bad child.
It just means he wants something and either 1) he can't figure out
how to get it or 2) more acceptable ways of asking are being ignored.
> She knows how to stand up to herself and if I don't help develop aThe Siblings Without Rivalry book will help you see areas where you
> balance
> between them I foresee some major battles between them.
might unknowingly be creating a wall between them. If you step in to
defend your daughter, your son will see that as taking her side
against him. The book will help you find ways to help them both
without giving them the idea you're taking sides.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 5, 2006, at 2:50 PM, S Drag-teine wrote:
But don't expect it to work! ;-) His emotions are still going to get
the best of him sometimes and even when he knows there are better
ways, he won't always be able to choose the better one just because
emotions are so powerful. Just remind him and assume he's doing the
best he can :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> maybe I need to simplifyThat will help :-)
> it for him in just one sentence
But don't expect it to work! ;-) His emotions are still going to get
the best of him sometimes and even when he knows there are better
ways, he won't always be able to choose the better one just because
emotions are so powerful. Just remind him and assume he's doing the
best he can :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nicole Willoughby
You sound like the perfect candidate for a mother's helper, Nicole.>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dh and I are currently discussing how we might pay for someone to come help a few hours a week and who we might hire for such help becuse yes! I think it would help my sanity a lot!
Nicole
---------------------------------
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dh and I are currently discussing how we might pay for someone to come help a few hours a week and who we might hire for such help becuse yes! I think it would help my sanity a lot!
Nicole
---------------------------------
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<<Before I have a big kid hitting me...>>
I do not allow anyone to hit me, adult or child. However, having said that, I have zero control over whether they take a swing at me. You are an adult, you know it is likely to happen. Step out of his way, block it with your forearm, catch his arm as he swings.
A friend's husband very recently passed away after a very long illness. The oldest child is 5 and a little rambunctious anyway. He is having a difficult time. I was with him at a park day and he got to hitting at me with a shoe. It started as playing but I could tell that it was moving to a dark place for him, a place he probably is spending a lot of time these days. He swung that shoe at me as long as he needed to, I simply blocked it with my arm and kept on talking and joking with him.
I think people should take responsibility for being hit.
I do not allow anyone to hit me, adult or child. However, having said that, I have zero control over whether they take a swing at me. You are an adult, you know it is likely to happen. Step out of his way, block it with your forearm, catch his arm as he swings.
A friend's husband very recently passed away after a very long illness. The oldest child is 5 and a little rambunctious anyway. He is having a difficult time. I was with him at a park day and he got to hitting at me with a shoe. It started as playing but I could tell that it was moving to a dark place for him, a place he probably is spending a lot of time these days. He swung that shoe at me as long as he needed to, I simply blocked it with my arm and kept on talking and joking with him.
I think people should take responsibility for being hit.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mother Earth (Tyra)" <motherspirit@...>
Date: Sunday, February 5, 2006 1:58 pm
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
> Pam,
>
> I really agree with what you are saying. I learned early with ds
> 1 who is now 5 yrs old that I really had no control over him.
> People used to think I was crazy for saying that but ultimately
> children will always choose their behavior because that is what
> people do. However, I can relate to Joyce. When ds1 was younger,
> especially pre-verbal, he would hit me when he was angry.
> Sometimes I handled it appropriately and other times I lost it as
> I was clueless and shocked that I had a child who hit considering
> that I did not hit him. However, as he got older and had more
> words the hitting declined. But one day I said told him that we
> do not relate to one another with hitting. I told him that I did
> not hit him and that I did not want him to hit me because I do not
> liked to be hit. In his face I saw something click, he got it and
> stopped hitting. He is the type of child who I guess is rather
> logical and so that approach has worked very well with him. It is
> all about mutual respect
>
> DS2 is proving to be more challenging in a way. He hits, too. It
> has bothered me way less this time around because I understand it.
> What ds2 is showing me is that the logical approach will not work
> for him. I HATE being hit by my children, and I must admit,
> especially in public. I do feel in a way he is doing what some
> children do. I don't see his behavior as anti-social or anything
> and I am even beginning to realize that often times when he is
> sleepy, he is uncontrollable with the hitting and pushing. I
> don't know anyone who has experienced a child who hits who can
> make me feel comfortable that this will go away in time. I am at
> a place where it is getting crucial for me because he is quickly
> moving towards 3 yrs old. I have to be honest with you all, I
> will be damn before I have a big child hitting me. It is okay
> now that he is little but I am just not going to have it once he
> gets older. Call it conditionings, call it controlling, call me
> disrespectful, but I work hard
>
> I appreciate your input and understanding.
>
> Peace
>
> Tyra
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pamela Sorooshian
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2006 1:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Punishment and rewards
>
>
>
>
> So - recognizing that we don't control them (at least not for
> long)
> is Step 1. The next thing seems to be that people think they
> should
> be able to talk them into behaving as the parent wants. Nah.
>
>
> When you very calmly explain to him that you don't yell and
> would
> like him not to yell - you're telling him something he already
> knows.
> He KNOWS you don't want him to be loud - that is undoubtedly WHY
> he
> is being loud, to get your attention. It is insulting and
> infuriating
> to be told something you already know, in the first place, and,
> second, there isn't much MORE infuriating than being frustrated
> and
> upset enough to raise your voice and having the other person
> tell you
> to calm down, instead of responding to the real issue.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>