Speaking of bedtimes....
Wendy E
Dare I open this can of worms? I don't see this subject as
specifically having to do with unschooling...but I too can see the
value in letting go of (or changing my thinking about) some other
things as I embrace the unschooling thing .... I think one of the
things Pam said in her post was that things change over the course
of time. I can totally see letting a somewhat older child choose
when he will go to bed. I have a 2yo. and 5 yo. and really feel the
need to have them in bed by a reasonable hour for several
reasons. -Whether they go to bed at 8:30 or 11 they seem to get up
around the same time and it seems they have a better day if they are
more rested. -I want to get to sleep too!!! -My husband and I need
a bit of time in the evening for ourselves. If they are up, we are
up...usually involved in whatever activity they are...and we also co-
sleep. I can see an older kid staying up and reading until he feels
the need to go to bed, but I am pretty much done with "you be the
T.Rex and I'll be the Allosaurus" when the sun goes down, KWIM?
So...those are my reasons for a somewhat imposed bedtime...I am sure
I will get some arguements against this...and I am open to listening
to them...but my actual question is...for those of you who DO have
some kind of bedtime guideline for younger kids, how do (or did) you
go about it? I say "somewhat" imposed because we don't have a
specific "time"...I just feel the need to start the bedtime ball
rolling at a reasonable hour...Sometimes we have things go pretty
smoothly, and other times it ends up being a real frustrating
venture trying to get the bath, PJs, teeth brushed, in bed, story
negotiations, etc.... Just wondering what other's experiences are
in this area.
Wendy
specifically having to do with unschooling...but I too can see the
value in letting go of (or changing my thinking about) some other
things as I embrace the unschooling thing .... I think one of the
things Pam said in her post was that things change over the course
of time. I can totally see letting a somewhat older child choose
when he will go to bed. I have a 2yo. and 5 yo. and really feel the
need to have them in bed by a reasonable hour for several
reasons. -Whether they go to bed at 8:30 or 11 they seem to get up
around the same time and it seems they have a better day if they are
more rested. -I want to get to sleep too!!! -My husband and I need
a bit of time in the evening for ourselves. If they are up, we are
up...usually involved in whatever activity they are...and we also co-
sleep. I can see an older kid staying up and reading until he feels
the need to go to bed, but I am pretty much done with "you be the
T.Rex and I'll be the Allosaurus" when the sun goes down, KWIM?
So...those are my reasons for a somewhat imposed bedtime...I am sure
I will get some arguements against this...and I am open to listening
to them...but my actual question is...for those of you who DO have
some kind of bedtime guideline for younger kids, how do (or did) you
go about it? I say "somewhat" imposed because we don't have a
specific "time"...I just feel the need to start the bedtime ball
rolling at a reasonable hour...Sometimes we have things go pretty
smoothly, and other times it ends up being a real frustrating
venture trying to get the bath, PJs, teeth brushed, in bed, story
negotiations, etc.... Just wondering what other's experiences are
in this area.
Wendy
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/2004 1:55:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mommytoluc@... writes:
Here's my experience:
Soon after we started unschooling I let go of bed TIMES. I was soon
overwhelmed, as my kids ( 7 and 51/2 at the time) were up so late...sometimes
11:30pm!...which led to many "grouchy" daytimes, not to mention never having a
"break" from them . ( love them dearly but we all need our space <<G>>).
So then I started with them needing to be upstairs BY 9:30 and all ready
for bed
( pj's, teeth,shower, etc) BUT they could do what they wanted until they were
ready for sleep. They did tend to choose quieter activities but still were
awake until 10 or 11. It worked for me because I was able to have MY
time...adult time.( even though there still were many "grouchy" daytimes...hahahha).
Ok...NOW...almost 6 months later... kids 8 (almost) and 6..they seem to
"get ready" ON THEIR OWN when they are tired and are usually asleep soon after 9.
They have self-regulated their bedtimes! Woohoo! It DOES work!
Of course there are the days that too many cool things are going on that they
go later but that's life!
~Marcia Simonds
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mommytoluc@... writes:
> but my actual question is...for those of you who DO have*******
> some kind of bedtime guideline for younger kids, how do (or did) you
> go about it? I say "somewhat" imposed because we don't have a
> specific "time"...I just feel the need to start the bedtime ball
> rolling at a reasonable hour...
Here's my experience:
Soon after we started unschooling I let go of bed TIMES. I was soon
overwhelmed, as my kids ( 7 and 51/2 at the time) were up so late...sometimes
11:30pm!...which led to many "grouchy" daytimes, not to mention never having a
"break" from them . ( love them dearly but we all need our space <<G>>).
So then I started with them needing to be upstairs BY 9:30 and all ready
for bed
( pj's, teeth,shower, etc) BUT they could do what they wanted until they were
ready for sleep. They did tend to choose quieter activities but still were
awake until 10 or 11. It worked for me because I was able to have MY
time...adult time.( even though there still were many "grouchy" daytimes...hahahha).
Ok...NOW...almost 6 months later... kids 8 (almost) and 6..they seem to
"get ready" ON THEIR OWN when they are tired and are usually asleep soon after 9.
They have self-regulated their bedtimes! Woohoo! It DOES work!
Of course there are the days that too many cool things are going on that they
go later but that's life!
~Marcia Simonds
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/2004 1:55:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mommytoluc@... writes:
So...those are my reasons for a somewhat imposed bedtime...I am sure
I will get some arguements against this...and I am open to listening
to them...but my actual question is...for those of you who DO have
some kind of bedtime guideline for younger kids, how do (or did) you
go about it?
<<<<
Cameron had a strict bedtime (this was pre-unschooling), but he was also a
kid who LOVED to sleep---he has always needed more sleep than the average Joe.
Even now, he'll gladly take a nap. He's 16. Bedtime was never really an
issue. He usually fell asleep before seven each night (on his own) and not wake
until seven the next morning----and take 1-2 naps each day as a toddler!
Duncan (8) has never had a bedtime. That doesn't mean that we didn't let him
"slow down" and have a "bedtime ritual". When he was little and starting to
look tired, we would turn down the lights, rub his head, sing a few songs,
maybe read a book (or ten). We'd yawn a lot! <G> He often listened to books on
tape or Jim Weiss stories on his CD player. He could call us at any time. He
could sleep whereever he wanted (our bed, his bed, his brother's bed, the
floor, the sofa, in a tent...). Often he'd fall asleep in our arms, and we'd put
him in his bed after he was asleep.
But we would do the same things for *us*----so he associated these things
with sleep.
Lots of these folks still nurse their older kids---that's a nice segue into
sleep.
We've always been respectful of sleeping people in our house----late
sleepers, early sleepers, nappers----so everyone knows to be quiet when someone's
sleeping.
It's hard when you're little and mom & dad seem to want time without you.
"What could *they* be doing that excludes *me*??" <g> If everyone goes to sleep
at the same time, there's no wondering "what am I missing?" The older I
get, the earlier I hit the sack, so noone's missing me! <g> Often now, Duncan is
still awake after I'm long gone!
Even as adults, it's nice to have things we do to help induce sleep. Let him
see *you* do that too.
But forced bedtimes can result in not knowing when you're really tired.
Forced awake in the morings will result in not knowing how much sleep your body
actually needs. And every body is different.
Knowing what you need; how your body feels when it's rested, full, or needy;
what you want to learn, and how you want to learn it---- these are some of
the biggest benefits of unschooling to me!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mommytoluc@... writes:
So...those are my reasons for a somewhat imposed bedtime...I am sure
I will get some arguements against this...and I am open to listening
to them...but my actual question is...for those of you who DO have
some kind of bedtime guideline for younger kids, how do (or did) you
go about it?
<<<<
Cameron had a strict bedtime (this was pre-unschooling), but he was also a
kid who LOVED to sleep---he has always needed more sleep than the average Joe.
Even now, he'll gladly take a nap. He's 16. Bedtime was never really an
issue. He usually fell asleep before seven each night (on his own) and not wake
until seven the next morning----and take 1-2 naps each day as a toddler!
Duncan (8) has never had a bedtime. That doesn't mean that we didn't let him
"slow down" and have a "bedtime ritual". When he was little and starting to
look tired, we would turn down the lights, rub his head, sing a few songs,
maybe read a book (or ten). We'd yawn a lot! <G> He often listened to books on
tape or Jim Weiss stories on his CD player. He could call us at any time. He
could sleep whereever he wanted (our bed, his bed, his brother's bed, the
floor, the sofa, in a tent...). Often he'd fall asleep in our arms, and we'd put
him in his bed after he was asleep.
But we would do the same things for *us*----so he associated these things
with sleep.
Lots of these folks still nurse their older kids---that's a nice segue into
sleep.
We've always been respectful of sleeping people in our house----late
sleepers, early sleepers, nappers----so everyone knows to be quiet when someone's
sleeping.
It's hard when you're little and mom & dad seem to want time without you.
"What could *they* be doing that excludes *me*??" <g> If everyone goes to sleep
at the same time, there's no wondering "what am I missing?" The older I
get, the earlier I hit the sack, so noone's missing me! <g> Often now, Duncan is
still awake after I'm long gone!
Even as adults, it's nice to have things we do to help induce sleep. Let him
see *you* do that too.
But forced bedtimes can result in not knowing when you're really tired.
Forced awake in the morings will result in not knowing how much sleep your body
actually needs. And every body is different.
Knowing what you need; how your body feels when it's rested, full, or needy;
what you want to learn, and how you want to learn it---- these are some of
the biggest benefits of unschooling to me!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanne Watson
We have a standard bedtime routine for my four year old. I think she
enjoys it very much.
I read to her, then she has her cookies and milk, then she brushes her
teeth, then feeds
the fish, and off to bed she goes with her dad. They look out the
window and say some
appreciative things about the earth or the sky or the powers that be -
it's pretty neat, really.
Kinda makes me want to be a kid again. 8:00 is bedtime for the 4 year
old.
10:00 is bedtime for the 13 year old. She's much less into routines,
of course, and balks
at having to go to bed. But she would stay up all night and be cranky
the next day. It's
a quality of life issue. I know she has seen the difference between
the right amount
of sleep and not enough. And over time I find myself observing other
families and their
bedtime habits too. I believe that the right amount of sleep and the
right meals really can
make a world of difference.
Joanne
enjoys it very much.
I read to her, then she has her cookies and milk, then she brushes her
teeth, then feeds
the fish, and off to bed she goes with her dad. They look out the
window and say some
appreciative things about the earth or the sky or the powers that be -
it's pretty neat, really.
Kinda makes me want to be a kid again. 8:00 is bedtime for the 4 year
old.
10:00 is bedtime for the 13 year old. She's much less into routines,
of course, and balks
at having to go to bed. But she would stay up all night and be cranky
the next day. It's
a quality of life issue. I know she has seen the difference between
the right amount
of sleep and not enough. And over time I find myself observing other
families and their
bedtime habits too. I believe that the right amount of sleep and the
right meals really can
make a world of difference.
Joanne
On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 07:47 AM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 6/23/2004 1:55:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> mommytoluc@... writes:
>
> So...those are my reasons for a somewhat imposed bedtime...I am sure
> I will get some arguements against this...and I am open to listening
> to them...but my actual question is...for those of you who DO have
> some kind of bedtime guideline for younger kids, how do (or did) you
> go about it?
>
>
> <<<<
>
>
> Cameron had a strict bedtime (this was pre-unschooling), but he was
> also a
> kid who LOVED to sleep---he has always needed more sleep than the
> average Joe.
> Even now, he'll gladly take a nap. He's 16. Bedtime was never really an
> issue. He usually fell asleep before seven each night (on his own)
> and not wake
> until seven the next morning----and take 1-2 naps each day as a
> toddler!
>
>
> Duncan (8) has never had a bedtime. That doesn't mean that we didn't
> let him
> "slow down" and have a "bedtime ritual". When he was little and
> starting to
> look tired, we would turn down the lights, rub his head, sing a few
> songs,
> maybe read a book (or ten). We'd yawn a lot! <G> He often listened to
> books on
> tape or Jim Weiss stories on his CD player. He could call us at any
> time. He
> could sleep whereever he wanted (our bed, his bed, his brother's bed,
> the
> floor, the sofa, in a tent...). Often he'd fall asleep in our arms,
> and we'd put
> him in his bed after he was asleep.
>
> But we would do the same things for *us*----so he associated these
> things
> with sleep.
>
> Lots of these folks still nurse their older kids---that's a nice segue
> into
> sleep.
>
> We've always been respectful of sleeping people in our house----late
> sleepers, early sleepers, nappers----so everyone knows to be quiet
> when someone's
> sleeping.
>
> It's hard when you're little and mom & dad seem to want time without
> you.
> "What could *they* be doing that excludes *me*??" <g> If everyone
> goes to sleep
> at the same time, there's no wondering "what am I missing?" The
> older I
> get, the earlier I hit the sack, so noone's missing me! <g> Often
> now, Duncan is
> still awake after I'm long gone!
>
> Even as adults, it's nice to have things we do to help induce sleep.
> Let him
> see *you* do that too.
>
> But forced bedtimes can result in not knowing when you're really tired.
> Forced awake in the morings will result in not knowing how much sleep
> your body
> actually needs. And every body is different.
>
> Knowing what you need; how your body feels when it's rested, full, or
> needy;
> what you want to learn, and how you want to learn it---- these are
> some of
> the biggest benefits of unschooling to me!
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/23/2004 8:37:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
joannecwatson@... writes:
10:00 is bedtime for the 13 year old. She's much less into routines,
of course, and balks
at having to go to bed. But she would stay up all night and be cranky
the next day. It's
a quality of life issue. I know she has seen the difference between
the right amount
of sleep and not enough. And over time I find myself observing other
families and their
bedtime habits too. I believe that the right amount of sleep and the
right meals really can
make a world of difference.<<<<
Uh huh. But knowing what's right for someone else is impossible. Given time,
she will figure out what's needed for her to function properly from day to
day. Forcing sleep or food on someone only contributes to NOT knowing our
bodies and how best to deal with problems.
It's trust. Trust her to know her body. And she'll trust in herself.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joannecwatson@... writes:
10:00 is bedtime for the 13 year old. She's much less into routines,
of course, and balks
at having to go to bed. But she would stay up all night and be cranky
the next day. It's
a quality of life issue. I know she has seen the difference between
the right amount
of sleep and not enough. And over time I find myself observing other
families and their
bedtime habits too. I believe that the right amount of sleep and the
right meals really can
make a world of difference.<<<<
Uh huh. But knowing what's right for someone else is impossible. Given time,
she will figure out what's needed for her to function properly from day to
day. Forcing sleep or food on someone only contributes to NOT knowing our
bodies and how best to deal with problems.
It's trust. Trust her to know her body. And she'll trust in herself.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanne Watson
When the maturity kicks in, so will the trust. Right now it's okay for
me to be her mother and help
her learn about cause and affect as it applies to her own biology so
that later on she'll be in a more
informed position to know what's right for her. She loves sweets and
loves to stay up all night.
She's a kid. What she likes to do takes precedence over what is good
for her body because of
her age. Other kids are more into being responsible. It's about
knowing your own kid and
giving them the support they need to get what they need rather than
what they want. I see
that as a function of being a parent. Cool though if you don't. I
don't want to debate over how
we honor our roles as parents.
Joanne
me to be her mother and help
her learn about cause and affect as it applies to her own biology so
that later on she'll be in a more
informed position to know what's right for her. She loves sweets and
loves to stay up all night.
She's a kid. What she likes to do takes precedence over what is good
for her body because of
her age. Other kids are more into being responsible. It's about
knowing your own kid and
giving them the support they need to get what they need rather than
what they want. I see
that as a function of being a parent. Cool though if you don't. I
don't want to debate over how
we honor our roles as parents.
Joanne
On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 08:53 AM, kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
> In a message dated 6/23/2004 8:37:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> joannecwatson@... writes:
>
> 10:00 is bedtime for the 13 year old. She's much less into routines,
> of course, and balks
> at having to go to bed. But she would stay up all night and be cranky
> the next day. It's
> a quality of life issue. I know she has seen the difference between
> the right amount
> of sleep and not enough. And over time I find myself observing other
> families and their
> bedtime habits too. I believe that the right amount of sleep and the
> right meals really can
> make a world of difference.<<<<
>
>
> Uh huh. But knowing what's right for someone else is impossible. Given
> time,
> she will figure out what's needed for her to function properly from
> day to
> day. Forcing sleep or food on someone only contributes to NOT knowing
> our
> bodies and how best to deal with problems.
>
> It's trust. Trust her to know her body. And she'll trust in herself.
>
> ~Kelly
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
sandrewmama
We practiced co-sleeping with both kids until they chose to sleep in their
own beds around the age of 7 and 6. In our house, ds (13) and dd (6) start
"heading" to bed around 10:00. Most nights this allows them time to enjoy
a late dinner with Dad and some play/talk time with him too. Then he
usually heads back into work. Ds gladly heads up to his room then but often
reads until midnight or 1:00 a.m. Dd needs some help with bedtime routine,
brushing teeth, pajamas and we read a chapter or two from her book. Then
it's "Good night, I love you, see you in the morning," and she's out within
5 - 10 mins. On the rare occasion that dd isn't ready to go to sleep
she's allowed to play quietly or read books in her room until she gets
sleepy and then she climbs back into bed and falls asleep.
Dd almost always (just now) gets up before 9:00 a.m. on her own and we call
up to ds at 9:00 to get him up. We've experimented with allowing him to
wake up naturally but his whole schedule shifts several hours later (up 'til
2:00 or 3:00 a.m. and sleeping in until 11:00 or noon) and then he is cranky
and difficult to live with when we have activities that need him up ealier
than that (which is most days). We decided to regulate the getting up time
rather than the going to sleep time because: a) it's easier, I'm already up
in the morning to wake him but I'm not up as late to make sure his lights
are out; b) it just seems to make life more peaceful for all if he gets
enough sleep and is up to pariticipate with the family acitivites.
Incidentally, dh is not a good role model when it comes to self-regulation
of sleep. He is continually sleep-deprived. He frequently stays up
extremely late working (self-employed) or playing (out with friends, vegging
in front of the TV, computer games etc.) and sleeps in when he can get away
with it [read: no pressing business deadlines or client meetings.] OTOH, I
am much more a creature of routine -- to sleep by 11:00 and up by 7:00
pretty much no matter what.
FWIW,
Chris
on 6/23/04 6:52 AM, Joanne Watson at joannecwatson@... wrote:
And over time I find myself observing other families and their bedtime
habits too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
own beds around the age of 7 and 6. In our house, ds (13) and dd (6) start
"heading" to bed around 10:00. Most nights this allows them time to enjoy
a late dinner with Dad and some play/talk time with him too. Then he
usually heads back into work. Ds gladly heads up to his room then but often
reads until midnight or 1:00 a.m. Dd needs some help with bedtime routine,
brushing teeth, pajamas and we read a chapter or two from her book. Then
it's "Good night, I love you, see you in the morning," and she's out within
5 - 10 mins. On the rare occasion that dd isn't ready to go to sleep
she's allowed to play quietly or read books in her room until she gets
sleepy and then she climbs back into bed and falls asleep.
Dd almost always (just now) gets up before 9:00 a.m. on her own and we call
up to ds at 9:00 to get him up. We've experimented with allowing him to
wake up naturally but his whole schedule shifts several hours later (up 'til
2:00 or 3:00 a.m. and sleeping in until 11:00 or noon) and then he is cranky
and difficult to live with when we have activities that need him up ealier
than that (which is most days). We decided to regulate the getting up time
rather than the going to sleep time because: a) it's easier, I'm already up
in the morning to wake him but I'm not up as late to make sure his lights
are out; b) it just seems to make life more peaceful for all if he gets
enough sleep and is up to pariticipate with the family acitivites.
Incidentally, dh is not a good role model when it comes to self-regulation
of sleep. He is continually sleep-deprived. He frequently stays up
extremely late working (self-employed) or playing (out with friends, vegging
in front of the TV, computer games etc.) and sleeps in when he can get away
with it [read: no pressing business deadlines or client meetings.] OTOH, I
am much more a creature of routine -- to sleep by 11:00 and up by 7:00
pretty much no matter what.
FWIW,
Chris
on 6/23/04 6:52 AM, Joanne Watson at joannecwatson@... wrote:
And over time I find myself observing other families and their bedtime
habits too.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dana Matt
Perhaps your children's internal clocks are no longer
true to themselves, and that is why they will wake
with less sleep than needed? If you gave up control
for "only a week", or "only a month", you might see
that they actually *do* get the amount of sleep that
*they* need. Other things that help are nice, dark
window coverings, as I know I don't sleep well when
it's light, even if I feel the need for more sleep.
My kids are 6 and almost 12, and have never had
bedtimes implemented on them. The kids and I co-sleep
during the week, and dad sleeps in another room as dad
has to get up at 3 am for work (POOR DAD!). Dad also
sleeps with us on the weekends. We go to bed nightly
around 11:30-1:30, and wake up any time from
8:30-noon. Usually, as I need a bit less sleep, I get
up on the 8:30 side of things, and the kids sleep more
until the 10:30-11 side of the morning, and I have all
morning to get the internet done, some laundry, drink
a cup or 8 of coffee, whatever...
Dana
in Montana
--- Wendy E <mommytoluc@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
true to themselves, and that is why they will wake
with less sleep than needed? If you gave up control
for "only a week", or "only a month", you might see
that they actually *do* get the amount of sleep that
*they* need. Other things that help are nice, dark
window coverings, as I know I don't sleep well when
it's light, even if I feel the need for more sleep.
My kids are 6 and almost 12, and have never had
bedtimes implemented on them. The kids and I co-sleep
during the week, and dad sleeps in another room as dad
has to get up at 3 am for work (POOR DAD!). Dad also
sleeps with us on the weekends. We go to bed nightly
around 11:30-1:30, and wake up any time from
8:30-noon. Usually, as I need a bit less sleep, I get
up on the 8:30 side of things, and the kids sleep more
until the 10:30-11 side of the morning, and I have all
morning to get the internet done, some laundry, drink
a cup or 8 of coffee, whatever...
Dana
in Montana
--- Wendy E <mommytoluc@...> wrote:
> Dare I open this can of worms? I don't see thishttp://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/0xXolB/TM
> subject as
> specifically having to do with unschooling...but I
> too can see the
> value in letting go of (or changing my thinking
> about) some other
> things as I embrace the unschooling thing .... I
> think one of the
> things Pam said in her post was that things change
> over the course
> of time. I can totally see letting a somewhat older
> child choose
> when he will go to bed. I have a 2yo. and 5 yo. and
> really feel the
> need to have them in bed by a reasonable hour for
> several
> reasons. -Whether they go to bed at 8:30 or 11
> they seem to get up
> around the same time and it seems they have a better
> day if they are
> more rested. -I want to get to sleep too!!! -My
> husband and I need
> a bit of time in the evening for ourselves. If they
> are up, we are
> up...usually involved in whatever activity they
> are...and we also co-
> sleep. I can see an older kid staying up and
> reading until he feels
> the need to go to bed, but I am pretty much done
> with "you be the
> T.Rex and I'll be the Allosaurus" when the sun goes
> down, KWIM?
> So...those are my reasons for a somewhat imposed
> bedtime...I am sure
> I will get some arguements against this...and I am
> open to listening
> to them...but my actual question is...for those of
> you who DO have
> some kind of bedtime guideline for younger kids, how
> do (or did) you
> go about it? I say "somewhat" imposed because we
> don't have a
> specific "time"...I just feel the need to start the
> bedtime ball
> rolling at a reasonable hour...Sometimes we have
> things go pretty
> smoothly, and other times it ends up being a real
> frustrating
> venture trying to get the bath, PJs, teeth brushed,
> in bed, story
> negotiations, etc.... Just wondering what other's
> experiences are
> in this area.
>
> Wendy
>
>
>
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Deb Lewis
***What she likes to do takes precedence over what is good for her body
because of her age. ***
I like to think about this kind of extension of unschooling this way. My
child didn't know how to read the moment he picked up a book, and didn't
suddenly gain an understanding of money the first time he paid for his
own juice at the store. Learning is a process that takes just exactly
the amount of time it takes for each individual learner. So learning
about what make us feel our very best doesn't happen all at once the
first time we eat protein or get eight hours of sleep. I don't see
learning about his personal rhythms and needs as any different than
learning how to read. It takes the amount of time it's going to take.
So, I don't require him to read a certain amount during the day, or at
certain times, and I don't require him to sleep at certain times.
There are so many differences in people. My husband can work all week,
twelve hour days, on six hours sleep a night, but if he could just sleep
as long as he wanted every night he'd sleep ten hours.
I almost never sleep past four hours. As a young teen I could sleep
sixteen hours.
My son has never much liked sleeping. He only slept in two hour
intervals as a baby. As a toddler if he fell asleep during the day he
was extraordinarily crabby when he woke up. Over the years he's needed
sometimes ten hours sleep, sometimes eight hours. It changes as he
changes. He's twelve and lately enjoys staying up all night. He goes
to bed around five am and sleeps until noon.
My thoughts are, first, I can't know which amount of sleep and at what
times will make him feel his best. I can only know I need my four hours.
Lots of people have told me four hours isn't enough but that's seems to
be all my body wants. I think sleep time changes alot for young people
who are still growing and they have different needs at different times in
their lives. I think my son could never learn to trust his own judgement
about how much sleep he'll need and what time he needs to go to bed to be
up for some event if I am the one determining his sleep schedule. I
don't have any expectation that he'll suddenly settle on eight hours of
sleep during regular sleep hours, and I haven't made a judgement that
would be the best thing he could do. I don't know what life has in store
for him, if he'll be a TV anchor who works all night or if he'll be an
office guy who has to be on the job at eight AM. All I know is he has
lot's of time to explore and learn about the sleep times that make him
feel his best. I can give him that now while he's young and won't
oversleep for a job interview if he stays up all night.<g>
I've seen him change so much in twelve years that I don't expect the up
all night, sleep 'til noon person he is today is the person he'll always
be. But if it turns out he is an up all night person his whole life, I
know he'll find a life that fits who he is. I really trust that he
wants the best for himself. His "best" might not look like the choices I
would make for myself, but then, he's not me. He's his own person.
He's a really interesting person who's making a lot of wonderful
discoveries about his world and about himself.
***I don't want to debate over how we honor our roles as parents.***
I don't mind if you don't want to discuss it, but I don't see it as
honoring my role as a parent. I try to think of it as honoring my son as
a fellow Earthling. No one else on earth needs me to tell them when to
sleep and what to eat. I don't believe that because my son came from my
body he needs me to determine what foods are best for him and what sleep
time is best any more than I believe he needs me to determine how much
history he should learn or how many science books he should read.
Deb Lewis
because of her age. ***
I like to think about this kind of extension of unschooling this way. My
child didn't know how to read the moment he picked up a book, and didn't
suddenly gain an understanding of money the first time he paid for his
own juice at the store. Learning is a process that takes just exactly
the amount of time it takes for each individual learner. So learning
about what make us feel our very best doesn't happen all at once the
first time we eat protein or get eight hours of sleep. I don't see
learning about his personal rhythms and needs as any different than
learning how to read. It takes the amount of time it's going to take.
So, I don't require him to read a certain amount during the day, or at
certain times, and I don't require him to sleep at certain times.
There are so many differences in people. My husband can work all week,
twelve hour days, on six hours sleep a night, but if he could just sleep
as long as he wanted every night he'd sleep ten hours.
I almost never sleep past four hours. As a young teen I could sleep
sixteen hours.
My son has never much liked sleeping. He only slept in two hour
intervals as a baby. As a toddler if he fell asleep during the day he
was extraordinarily crabby when he woke up. Over the years he's needed
sometimes ten hours sleep, sometimes eight hours. It changes as he
changes. He's twelve and lately enjoys staying up all night. He goes
to bed around five am and sleeps until noon.
My thoughts are, first, I can't know which amount of sleep and at what
times will make him feel his best. I can only know I need my four hours.
Lots of people have told me four hours isn't enough but that's seems to
be all my body wants. I think sleep time changes alot for young people
who are still growing and they have different needs at different times in
their lives. I think my son could never learn to trust his own judgement
about how much sleep he'll need and what time he needs to go to bed to be
up for some event if I am the one determining his sleep schedule. I
don't have any expectation that he'll suddenly settle on eight hours of
sleep during regular sleep hours, and I haven't made a judgement that
would be the best thing he could do. I don't know what life has in store
for him, if he'll be a TV anchor who works all night or if he'll be an
office guy who has to be on the job at eight AM. All I know is he has
lot's of time to explore and learn about the sleep times that make him
feel his best. I can give him that now while he's young and won't
oversleep for a job interview if he stays up all night.<g>
I've seen him change so much in twelve years that I don't expect the up
all night, sleep 'til noon person he is today is the person he'll always
be. But if it turns out he is an up all night person his whole life, I
know he'll find a life that fits who he is. I really trust that he
wants the best for himself. His "best" might not look like the choices I
would make for myself, but then, he's not me. He's his own person.
He's a really interesting person who's making a lot of wonderful
discoveries about his world and about himself.
***I don't want to debate over how we honor our roles as parents.***
I don't mind if you don't want to discuss it, but I don't see it as
honoring my role as a parent. I try to think of it as honoring my son as
a fellow Earthling. No one else on earth needs me to tell them when to
sleep and what to eat. I don't believe that because my son came from my
body he needs me to determine what foods are best for him and what sleep
time is best any more than I believe he needs me to determine how much
history he should learn or how many science books he should read.
Deb Lewis
Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
I very much like what Deb wrote (thanks!)... My kids are learning about
their own needs for sleep and their own bodies in much the way Deb
described. If I were prescribing what I thought the amount of time should
be that they need to sleep or when they need to do it, I think they would
lose their ability to be in touch and figure it out as they need to. My son
needs a vastly lower amount of sleep as my daughter, even though he is 2 yrs
younger. I do think that it helps for me to point out indicators I see that
might help them evaluate their needs, so I'll point out to them at night if
they're getting cranky, or rubbing their eyes, and we'll try to determine if
it could be they're tired...we'll talk about what time they got up this
morning, was it super early? I think my role can be to let them have
control and trust but also to help them find some indicators to help them.
What I do is ask them to check in with their bodies, just like when my
daughter's urge to play overrides her willingness to take a few minutes to
use the potty - I might say "I see lots of wiggling going on. Usually that
means your bladder is full" and I ask her to check in with her bladder - She
could be wiggling for another reason - like excitement - so I wouldn't
presume to tell her "You need to go to the potty". I wouldn't presume to
tell my kids "You need to go to bed". If I do feel they are overtired, but
want to be with me, I just head to bed myself, and it almost never fails
that within 5 minutes they are sleeping peacefully beside me.
My daughter who is now 5.7 will often indicate verbally when she is tired
and ready to fall asleep, and that is really what I'd like to see. I don't
think this type of realization comes suddenly from just her getting older, I
think it comes from her evaluating her needs over a period of time and
getting the chance to learn about her body with input from me.
Joan
-----Original Message-----
From: Deb Lewis [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Speaking of bedtimes....
***What she likes to do takes precedence over what is good for her body
because of her age. ***
I like to think about this kind of extension of unschooling this way. My
child didn't know how to read the moment he picked up a book, and didn't
suddenly gain an understanding of money the first time he paid for his
own juice at the store. Learning is a process that takes just exactly
the amount of time it takes for each individual learner.
their own needs for sleep and their own bodies in much the way Deb
described. If I were prescribing what I thought the amount of time should
be that they need to sleep or when they need to do it, I think they would
lose their ability to be in touch and figure it out as they need to. My son
needs a vastly lower amount of sleep as my daughter, even though he is 2 yrs
younger. I do think that it helps for me to point out indicators I see that
might help them evaluate their needs, so I'll point out to them at night if
they're getting cranky, or rubbing their eyes, and we'll try to determine if
it could be they're tired...we'll talk about what time they got up this
morning, was it super early? I think my role can be to let them have
control and trust but also to help them find some indicators to help them.
What I do is ask them to check in with their bodies, just like when my
daughter's urge to play overrides her willingness to take a few minutes to
use the potty - I might say "I see lots of wiggling going on. Usually that
means your bladder is full" and I ask her to check in with her bladder - She
could be wiggling for another reason - like excitement - so I wouldn't
presume to tell her "You need to go to the potty". I wouldn't presume to
tell my kids "You need to go to bed". If I do feel they are overtired, but
want to be with me, I just head to bed myself, and it almost never fails
that within 5 minutes they are sleeping peacefully beside me.
My daughter who is now 5.7 will often indicate verbally when she is tired
and ready to fall asleep, and that is really what I'd like to see. I don't
think this type of realization comes suddenly from just her getting older, I
think it comes from her evaluating her needs over a period of time and
getting the chance to learn about her body with input from me.
Joan
-----Original Message-----
From: Deb Lewis [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 11:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Speaking of bedtimes....
***What she likes to do takes precedence over what is good for her body
because of her age. ***
I like to think about this kind of extension of unschooling this way. My
child didn't know how to read the moment he picked up a book, and didn't
suddenly gain an understanding of money the first time he paid for his
own juice at the store. Learning is a process that takes just exactly
the amount of time it takes for each individual learner.
Nichole in Round Rock
Beautiful post, Deb. What about a single mom who is doing unschooling and has to be to work at a certain time while her children are with a trusted unschooling mom or grandma? I have some ideas, but would love to hear yours.
:o)
Nichole
:o)
Nichole
----- Original Message -----
From: Deb Lewis
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:02 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Speaking of bedtimes....
***What she likes to do takes precedence over what is good for her body
because of her age. ***
I like to think about this kind of extension of unschooling this way. My
child didn't know how to read the moment he picked up a book, and didn't
suddenly gain an understanding of money the first time he paid for his
own juice at the store. Learning is a process that takes just exactly
the amount of time it takes for each individual learner. So learning
about what make us feel our very best doesn't happen all at once the
first time we eat protein or get eight hours of sleep. I don't see
learning about his personal rhythms and needs as any different than
learning how to read. It takes the amount of time it's going to take.
So, I don't require him to read a certain amount during the day, or at
certain times, and I don't require him to sleep at certain times.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea
My son, who is now 4 has always gone to bed around 9:30. I am an early
bird, and so this has been a little struggle for me, but time and time
again I have seen him totally immersed and focused at those late hours.
Knowing that his best learning time is late, I have done away with an
actual time, but his natural rhythm is pretty consistent. We do our
bedtime routine around 9:00, usually with very little fuss and usually
he is still a bit wired and likes to jump on the bed etc.I'm now
thinking that if he has that much energy we should go for a short night
hike (we live in the mountains) or go star gazing. If I weren't so
tired at 9:00 it would make it easier. Sometimes, if he isn't so
energetic, he is content to read books in bed with us sleeping next to
him.
Peace,
Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bird, and so this has been a little struggle for me, but time and time
again I have seen him totally immersed and focused at those late hours.
Knowing that his best learning time is late, I have done away with an
actual time, but his natural rhythm is pretty consistent. We do our
bedtime routine around 9:00, usually with very little fuss and usually
he is still a bit wired and likes to jump on the bed etc.I'm now
thinking that if he has that much energy we should go for a short night
hike (we live in the mountains) or go star gazing. If I weren't so
tired at 9:00 it would make it easier. Sometimes, if he isn't so
energetic, he is content to read books in bed with us sleeping next to
him.
Peace,
Andrea
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Valerie
> In a message dated 6/23/2004 8:37:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,But she would stay up all night and be cranky the next day. It's
> joannecwatson@c... writes:
a quality of life issue. I know she has seen the difference between
the right amount of sleep and not enough.
****** It's all about choices - hers and yours. You deciding what
she needs isn't possible, just as you would probably find it
ludicrous if she told you what time you had to go to bed.
If she has seen the difference between the 'right' amount and
the 'wrong' amount, then she'll figure out how much she needs and
when, IF she's given the chance. There might be a few cranky days,
but wouldn't those few cranky days be better than the balking every
night? The balking is her way of telling you that she wants to own
the responsibility of when she sleeps. Trust her to follow her
body's messages. She'll find the quality of life she needs.
Laurie stayed up all night for years. She's still a nightowl at
times. She knew from a very early age that if she wanted to go
somewhere early the next morning, that she'd need to go to bed at an
early hour the night before. She missed a few hours of sleep from
time-to-time, but all that did was tune her in better to what she
needed. No one had to tell her (and no one did) that she hadn't had
enough sleep.
When her crankiness reared its ugly head, I knew why it was
happening and let her figure out for herself that the crankiness was
a direct cause of not enough sleep. I remained calm and pleasant and
let her work through her discomfort...much like I would do with
another adult who hadn't gotten enough...uhm... sleep <g>. Common
sense told her that it was totally up to her to decide when to sleep
and for how long and totally her 'fault' when she didn't get enough.
love, Valerie
Valerie
--- In [email protected], Joanne Watson
<joannecwatson@c...> wrote:
until she matures? Does that mean you decide when she's mature?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
love, Valerie
<joannecwatson@c...> wrote:
> When the maturity kicks in, so will the trust.****** Am I misunderstanding this sentence? You won't trust her
>
> Joanne
until she matures? Does that mean you decide when she's mature?
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
love, Valerie
Joanne Watson
On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 11:02 AM, Deb Lewis wrote:
Blessings: The Inner Work of
Mindful Parenting" - and your philosophies seem connected to much of
what I read. I like your perspective.
My girl has a lot of challenges socially and she will come to
understand, in her own time, that she is more
pleasant company when properly rested and fed, and that she is happier
with herself as well. I see it
happening, and I see myself as sort of a facilitator in that process
rather than someone forcing my ways
on her. She has come to trust me but is also in that adolescent phase
of letting go of the reins and finding
things in her own ways. I don't squelch her natural learning curve but
I'd like to think that I help her keep
her balance a little while she's testing her wings.
Joanne
> I don't mind if you don't want to discuss it, but I don't see it asI understand. I read a book once that stayed with me called "Everyday
> honoring my role as a parent. I try to think of it as honoring my son
> as
> a fellow Earthling.
Blessings: The Inner Work of
Mindful Parenting" - and your philosophies seem connected to much of
what I read. I like your perspective.
My girl has a lot of challenges socially and she will come to
understand, in her own time, that she is more
pleasant company when properly rested and fed, and that she is happier
with herself as well. I see it
happening, and I see myself as sort of a facilitator in that process
rather than someone forcing my ways
on her. She has come to trust me but is also in that adolescent phase
of letting go of the reins and finding
things in her own ways. I don't squelch her natural learning curve but
I'd like to think that I help her keep
her balance a little while she's testing her wings.
Joanne
Joanne Watson
There is an underlying current of mutual respect for our own unique
ways and needs,
but in terms of health and care, I think it would be irresponsible of
me to be quite that
passive. There are lots of things for her to learn through trial and
error. Minimally, I think
I can locate health-related pitfalls if she's not yet ready to
recognize them as such. I
don't view setting these kinds of boundaries as being restrictive. I
think I understand
that you do and I respect your perspective. It comes from a loving
place and if it
works for you and your family, don't mess with it.
I was an over-protected child. I am so careful to follow the old
wisdom about giving
children roots first, and then wings. We're still on the roots phase.
I let her go and I
trust, but I guide. I am called to that kind of mothering. How could
I violate my basic
instincts when they are serving her so well so far? Shouldn't a change
be in response
to some unfulfilled needs of hers, some unhappiness? Something she
asks of me?
Happy, Healthy, Safe, Free to be Herself- that's what I'm seeing in my
daughter.
I think children need to be cared for and nurtured. I guess we all
have different ways of
addressing those need, which is cool. This exchange has been
stimulating.
Peace-
Joanne
ways and needs,
but in terms of health and care, I think it would be irresponsible of
me to be quite that
passive. There are lots of things for her to learn through trial and
error. Minimally, I think
I can locate health-related pitfalls if she's not yet ready to
recognize them as such. I
don't view setting these kinds of boundaries as being restrictive. I
think I understand
that you do and I respect your perspective. It comes from a loving
place and if it
works for you and your family, don't mess with it.
I was an over-protected child. I am so careful to follow the old
wisdom about giving
children roots first, and then wings. We're still on the roots phase.
I let her go and I
trust, but I guide. I am called to that kind of mothering. How could
I violate my basic
instincts when they are serving her so well so far? Shouldn't a change
be in response
to some unfulfilled needs of hers, some unhappiness? Something she
asks of me?
Happy, Healthy, Safe, Free to be Herself- that's what I'm seeing in my
daughter.
I think children need to be cared for and nurtured. I guess we all
have different ways of
addressing those need, which is cool. This exchange has been
stimulating.
Peace-
Joanne
On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 12:52 PM, Valerie wrote:
> ****** It's all about choices - hers and yours. You deciding what
> she needs isn't possible, just as you would probably find it
> ludicrous if she told you what time you had to go to bed.
Joanne Watson
Valerie,
I think we sort of decide together on various issues where the
readiness lies. She asks for my trust and always receives it . But
where health and safety conjoin, I have the over-ride.
Ice cream for dinner every once in a while? Fun. Stay up to watch a
good flick every now
and then? Of course! But routines can be nurturing and supportive.
You can choose to view them all as
restrictive, but I would have a different perspective. She's still a
little girl, and she's growing up. Maturity is
a process, not a proclamation. I view setting boundaries as part of
parenting. This is just how I see it.
Is it okay if we agree to disagree? I do hear you, and I don't
challenge your ideals as being invalid.
I just don't share them. I hope that's okay. You seem like such a
loving, enlightened soul. What can
we learn from each other?
Peace-
Joanne
I think we sort of decide together on various issues where the
readiness lies. She asks for my trust and always receives it . But
where health and safety conjoin, I have the over-ride.
Ice cream for dinner every once in a while? Fun. Stay up to watch a
good flick every now
and then? Of course! But routines can be nurturing and supportive.
You can choose to view them all as
restrictive, but I would have a different perspective. She's still a
little girl, and she's growing up. Maturity is
a process, not a proclamation. I view setting boundaries as part of
parenting. This is just how I see it.
Is it okay if we agree to disagree? I do hear you, and I don't
challenge your ideals as being invalid.
I just don't share them. I hope that's okay. You seem like such a
loving, enlightened soul. What can
we learn from each other?
Peace-
Joanne
On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 12:56 PM, Valerie wrote:
> --- In [email protected], Joanne Watson
> <joannecwatson@c...> wrote:
>> When the maturity kicks in, so will the trust.
>>
>> Joanne
>
> ****** Am I misunderstanding this sentence? You won't trust her
> until she matures? Does that mean you decide when she's mature?
> Please correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> love, Valerie
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Joanne,
I just wanted to say I hear what you are saying and respect your choice. Sounds like you are doing what is right for your family and they are thriving because of it.
I to believe in more structure around bedtimes and food issues than many purist unschoolers, maybe not as much as you (who's to know and what does it matter?) but more than the people who go with no resistrictions at all. I have loosened up on them a lot since joining this list and others and have found positive benefits to doing that, but for me my goal is not to remove all limits as that isn't what I want.
I am thinking that when my dd is finally ready to sleep in her own room (who knows whent that will be) I *might* be ready to let go and say to her that she can go to bed when she wants but I will still have a time when she needs to be ready and in her room for quiet activities.
The peace in our home is saying loudly that this is working for us now.
Thanks for sharing your perspective,
Sherri-Lee
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I just wanted to say I hear what you are saying and respect your choice. Sounds like you are doing what is right for your family and they are thriving because of it.
I to believe in more structure around bedtimes and food issues than many purist unschoolers, maybe not as much as you (who's to know and what does it matter?) but more than the people who go with no resistrictions at all. I have loosened up on them a lot since joining this list and others and have found positive benefits to doing that, but for me my goal is not to remove all limits as that isn't what I want.
I am thinking that when my dd is finally ready to sleep in her own room (who knows whent that will be) I *might* be ready to let go and say to her that she can go to bed when she wants but I will still have a time when she needs to be ready and in her room for quiet activities.
The peace in our home is saying loudly that this is working for us now.
Thanks for sharing your perspective,
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Joanne Watson
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Speaking of bedtimes....
There is an underlying current of mutual respect for our own unique
ways and needs,
but in terms of health and care, I think it would be irresponsible of
me to be quite that
passive. There are lots of things for her to learn through trial and
error. Minimally, I think
I can locate health-related pitfalls if she's not yet ready to
recognize them as such. I
don't view setting these kinds of boundaries as being restrictive. I
think I understand
that you do and I respect your perspective. It comes from a loving
place and if it
works for you and your family, don't mess with it.
I was an over-protected child. I am so careful to follow the old
wisdom about giving
children roots first, and then wings. We're still on the roots phase.
I let her go and I
trust, but I guide. I am called to that kind of mothering. How could
I violate my basic
instincts when they are serving her so well so far? Shouldn't a change
be in response
to some unfulfilled needs of hers, some unhappiness? Something she
asks of me?
Happy, Healthy, Safe, Free to be Herself- that's what I'm seeing in my
daughter.
I think children need to be cared for and nurtured. I guess we all
have different ways of
addressing those need, which is cool. This exchange has been
stimulating.
Peace-
Joanne
On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 12:52 PM, Valerie wrote:
> ****** It's all about choices - hers and yours. You deciding what
> she needs isn't possible, just as you would probably find it
> ludicrous if she told you what time you had to go to bed.
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Deb Lewis
***...I just feel the need to start the bedtime ball
rolling at a reasonable hour...Sometimes we have things go pretty
smoothly, and other times it ends up being a real frustrating
venture trying to get the bath, PJs, teeth brushed, in bed, story
negotiations, etc.... ***
When Dylan was little I had a ritual more for his dad and I than for him.
His dad always went to bed before the rest of us so I'd calm the house.
I'd get the dishes done and pick up a little so that I could relax. I'd
dim the lights and turn the TV down. We had a very small house in those
days and we made an effort to be quiet while David was falling asleep.
When I noticed Dylan was starting to rub the back of his head, or twirl
his hair with one little finger, I knew he was getting tired. I didn't
say "time for bed" I just helped him get comfortable and fall asleep when
he was ready.
With the house calm and quiet and dim I'd say "lets get into our jammies
and get cozy on the couch."
Sometimes we'd have hot chocolate and read. Sometimes we'd watch TV.
Dylan nursed until he was almost four so sometimes after the house was
quiet and things were settling down he'd want to nurse and he'd fall
asleep. Sometimes we'd just snuggle on the couch until he fell asleep or
until he asked to go sleep with Daddy.
I waited for signs from Dylan that he was tired and I helped him relax.
I didn't make him go to bed, and some nights when sleep didn't come
easily I'd do what I could to keep him happy.
I have this idea that peace is as good for us as sleep. If my goal was
helping him find restful sleep so he could feel good and be healthy, then
creating a situation (in order to get him to sleep) where we were
stressing and unhappy seemed contrary to that goal.
I only have one kid, so have limited experience helping two kids get
comfortable and relaxed enough that sleep seems welcome and friendly
instead of like the enemy of happy play it must seem to be.<g>
Deb Lewis
rolling at a reasonable hour...Sometimes we have things go pretty
smoothly, and other times it ends up being a real frustrating
venture trying to get the bath, PJs, teeth brushed, in bed, story
negotiations, etc.... ***
When Dylan was little I had a ritual more for his dad and I than for him.
His dad always went to bed before the rest of us so I'd calm the house.
I'd get the dishes done and pick up a little so that I could relax. I'd
dim the lights and turn the TV down. We had a very small house in those
days and we made an effort to be quiet while David was falling asleep.
When I noticed Dylan was starting to rub the back of his head, or twirl
his hair with one little finger, I knew he was getting tired. I didn't
say "time for bed" I just helped him get comfortable and fall asleep when
he was ready.
With the house calm and quiet and dim I'd say "lets get into our jammies
and get cozy on the couch."
Sometimes we'd have hot chocolate and read. Sometimes we'd watch TV.
Dylan nursed until he was almost four so sometimes after the house was
quiet and things were settling down he'd want to nurse and he'd fall
asleep. Sometimes we'd just snuggle on the couch until he fell asleep or
until he asked to go sleep with Daddy.
I waited for signs from Dylan that he was tired and I helped him relax.
I didn't make him go to bed, and some nights when sleep didn't come
easily I'd do what I could to keep him happy.
I have this idea that peace is as good for us as sleep. If my goal was
helping him find restful sleep so he could feel good and be healthy, then
creating a situation (in order to get him to sleep) where we were
stressing and unhappy seemed contrary to that goal.
I only have one kid, so have limited experience helping two kids get
comfortable and relaxed enough that sleep seems welcome and friendly
instead of like the enemy of happy play it must seem to be.<g>
Deb Lewis
Valerie
> Is it okay if we agree to disagree? I do hear you, and I don'ta
> challenge your ideals as being invalid.
> I just don't share them. I hope that's okay. You seem like such
> loving, enlightened soul. What can****** I agree to disagree. :-)
> we learn from each other?
>
> Peace-
>
> Joanne
love, Valerie
sandrewmama
on 6/23/04 1:32 PM, Deb Lewis at ddzimlew@... wrote:
***...
I only have one kid, so have limited experience helping two kids get
comfortable and relaxed enough that sleep seems welcome and friendly
instead of like the enemy of happy play it must seem to be.<g>
Deb Lewis
Deb,
I remember sleep as the enemy as a young child. I have a vivid memory of
sitting at the top our stairs, crying to be able to come down because I was
not tired and the grown-ups seemed to be having fun.
Your nighttime routine sounds peaceful and much more like how I've handled
my children's sleep.
I learned early on, that there was nothing more frustrating for me than to
try to gentle a young child to sleep (we practiced co-sleeping) when I was
tired and he/she was not! Bedtime was so much more pleasant when I waited
until I was sure my little one was ready for sleep. Now that my two are
older, they still follow their bodie's signals for sleep and they also
respect that come 10:00 p.m. Mommy needs quiet time and to be able to go to
sleep if I am ready. Ds finds something quiet to do in his room until he is
ready to sleep and dd usually wants to be tucked in before I go to bed. On
the rare occassion she isn't sleepy, she plays quietly until she is.
Both my kids nursed and practiced co-sleeping past age 5. Just recently, dd
has started going to sleep in her own bed -- her motivation was that she
wanted to be able to go on sleepovers at Grandma's and Grandma doesn't do
co-sleeping! We'd learned the hard way, with older ds, that being able to
sleep happily in your own bed was a necessity for sleeping over at
Grandma's. At age 4, we received a 4:00 a.m. call to pick him up from his
first attempt at sleeping over. At age 6, he snuck down to Grandma's
basement around midnight, to secretly call us to pick him up. It seemed
that Grandma was going to force him to stay in spite of his desire to come
home and she wasn't letting him call us! When we arrived he was crying and
Grandma was obviously angry with him.-- Grrr!
Dd's first sleepover was much different. She happily went to bed in her own
bed there and slept all night.
Thanks for the memories!
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***...
I only have one kid, so have limited experience helping two kids get
comfortable and relaxed enough that sleep seems welcome and friendly
instead of like the enemy of happy play it must seem to be.<g>
Deb Lewis
Deb,
I remember sleep as the enemy as a young child. I have a vivid memory of
sitting at the top our stairs, crying to be able to come down because I was
not tired and the grown-ups seemed to be having fun.
Your nighttime routine sounds peaceful and much more like how I've handled
my children's sleep.
I learned early on, that there was nothing more frustrating for me than to
try to gentle a young child to sleep (we practiced co-sleeping) when I was
tired and he/she was not! Bedtime was so much more pleasant when I waited
until I was sure my little one was ready for sleep. Now that my two are
older, they still follow their bodie's signals for sleep and they also
respect that come 10:00 p.m. Mommy needs quiet time and to be able to go to
sleep if I am ready. Ds finds something quiet to do in his room until he is
ready to sleep and dd usually wants to be tucked in before I go to bed. On
the rare occassion she isn't sleepy, she plays quietly until she is.
Both my kids nursed and practiced co-sleeping past age 5. Just recently, dd
has started going to sleep in her own bed -- her motivation was that she
wanted to be able to go on sleepovers at Grandma's and Grandma doesn't do
co-sleeping! We'd learned the hard way, with older ds, that being able to
sleep happily in your own bed was a necessity for sleeping over at
Grandma's. At age 4, we received a 4:00 a.m. call to pick him up from his
first attempt at sleeping over. At age 6, he snuck down to Grandma's
basement around midnight, to secretly call us to pick him up. It seemed
that Grandma was going to force him to stay in spite of his desire to come
home and she wasn't letting him call us! When we arrived he was crying and
Grandma was obviously angry with him.-- Grrr!
Dd's first sleepover was much different. She happily went to bed in her own
bed there and slept all night.
Thanks for the memories!
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
short term!
We have a bunch of little things that make it hard for me to even
want to let go of controling bed time. Dh goes to sleep early and
gets very stressed at noise upstairs. Caroline goes to sleep later
and makes a ton of noise (we call it the manic hour before she goes
to sleep) so it's hard for Mikey to go to sleep downstairs.
We have an exercise class that we go to in the mornings--we have to
leave at 8:35 to get there on time. I love it, I feel sooo much
better when I'm exercising, I get to see friends. The kids have a
great time--the babysitters are great, they like the other kids
there, yadda yadda yadda.
I'm afraid if I let Mikey stay up until he's ready to go to sleep,
there will be a period of time when he stays up late, wakes up late
and we either miss class a bunch or I wake him up and he's grumpy and
the other kids and the babysitter have to deal with him. It's one
thing for me to deal with it, but another to give a grumpy kid to
someone else, kwim?
As far as getting ready for bed, I'm finding that it's much, much
better if I start much earlier than I'd thought and ask Mikey what he
wants to do first, try to suggest fun ways to do things, act silly,
etc. Last night I asked him what he wanted to do first, brushing
teeth, putting on pjs or reading a story. He said all three, so I
changed his pjs while reading a story and dh brushed his teeth!
I don't know if this makes sense (or is really obvious!), but things
are a lot better since I moved away from a "stop having fun it's time
to take a bath, get into pjs, go to bed" and more toward "this is the
time of day when we play in the bathtub and change into clothes
without zippers and buttons." Like, ya know, life is fun, esp. with
battery-operated toothbrushes shaped like fire engines and different
flavors of toothpaste!
Sigh. I haven't exercised in a couple weeks because I've been sick
and then we were out of town and I'm actually not really well yet.
Maybe on the nights we don't have class the next day and in a couple
weeks when I've worked out more, I'll relax bedtimes. This is an area
I need to take baby steps in otherwise I'll be so damn uptight that
I'd become a martyr: "Fine, stay up late. It doesn't matter how much
sleep I get..."
--aj, who started writing this many hours ago before a very fun trip
to the park, despite the rain!
> Uh huh. But knowing what's right for someone else is impossible.Given time,
> she will figure out what's needed for her to function properly fromday to
> day. Forcing sleep or food on someone only contributes to NOTknowing our
> bodies and how best to deal with problems.Oh, Kelly, I believe you in the long term, I'm just afraid of the
>
> It's trust. Trust her to know her body. And she'll trust in herself.
>
> ~Kelly
short term!
We have a bunch of little things that make it hard for me to even
want to let go of controling bed time. Dh goes to sleep early and
gets very stressed at noise upstairs. Caroline goes to sleep later
and makes a ton of noise (we call it the manic hour before she goes
to sleep) so it's hard for Mikey to go to sleep downstairs.
We have an exercise class that we go to in the mornings--we have to
leave at 8:35 to get there on time. I love it, I feel sooo much
better when I'm exercising, I get to see friends. The kids have a
great time--the babysitters are great, they like the other kids
there, yadda yadda yadda.
I'm afraid if I let Mikey stay up until he's ready to go to sleep,
there will be a period of time when he stays up late, wakes up late
and we either miss class a bunch or I wake him up and he's grumpy and
the other kids and the babysitter have to deal with him. It's one
thing for me to deal with it, but another to give a grumpy kid to
someone else, kwim?
As far as getting ready for bed, I'm finding that it's much, much
better if I start much earlier than I'd thought and ask Mikey what he
wants to do first, try to suggest fun ways to do things, act silly,
etc. Last night I asked him what he wanted to do first, brushing
teeth, putting on pjs or reading a story. He said all three, so I
changed his pjs while reading a story and dh brushed his teeth!
I don't know if this makes sense (or is really obvious!), but things
are a lot better since I moved away from a "stop having fun it's time
to take a bath, get into pjs, go to bed" and more toward "this is the
time of day when we play in the bathtub and change into clothes
without zippers and buttons." Like, ya know, life is fun, esp. with
battery-operated toothbrushes shaped like fire engines and different
flavors of toothpaste!
Sigh. I haven't exercised in a couple weeks because I've been sick
and then we were out of town and I'm actually not really well yet.
Maybe on the nights we don't have class the next day and in a couple
weeks when I've worked out more, I'll relax bedtimes. This is an area
I need to take baby steps in otherwise I'll be so damn uptight that
I'd become a martyr: "Fine, stay up late. It doesn't matter how much
sleep I get..."
--aj, who started writing this many hours ago before a very fun trip
to the park, despite the rain!
Jon and Rue Kream
>>Shouldn't a changebe in response
to some unfulfilled needs of hers, some unhappiness? Something she
asks of me?
**In an earlier post you said she "balks at having to go to bed" at the
bedtime you've set for her. Couldn't it be that she is expressing a need?
That she's asking something of you through her behavior? ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<Grandma's. At age 4, we received a 4:00 a.m. call to pick him up from
his first attempt at sleeping over. At age 6, he snuck down to Grandma's
basement around midnight, to secretly call us to pick him up. It seemed
that Grandma was going to force him to stay in spite of his desire to come
home and she wasn't letting him call us! When we arrived he was crying and
Grandma was obviously angry with him.-- Grrr!>>>
I'm interested to know how you resolved this issue with Grandma. Obviously
you have, or you wouldn't be allowing your dd to be over there. I'm always
keen to hear how people deal with these relatives whom they love, but have
different philosophies, kind of banking this wisdom for the future.
I am very distrustful of some other people in my family. Nothing on earth
would induce me to leave my daughter alone for five minutes with my MIL,
even assuming she would willingly not smoke cigarettes in the closed room
with Jayn. Luckily Granny definitely wants to stay a phone visitor.
My mother has had a brain aneurism that has affected both her mental
competence, and her physical ability to play. Even before that, her time
with Jayn was always lightly supervised by either dh or myself. Not because
she doesn't love Jayn to the ends of the earth but because I know how
controlling and manipulating she is. (I was there for a long time) I think
she knows that if she ever raised a hand to Jayn, we would probably never
allow her to see her again.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
his first attempt at sleeping over. At age 6, he snuck down to Grandma's
basement around midnight, to secretly call us to pick him up. It seemed
that Grandma was going to force him to stay in spite of his desire to come
home and she wasn't letting him call us! When we arrived he was crying and
Grandma was obviously angry with him.-- Grrr!>>>
I'm interested to know how you resolved this issue with Grandma. Obviously
you have, or you wouldn't be allowing your dd to be over there. I'm always
keen to hear how people deal with these relatives whom they love, but have
different philosophies, kind of banking this wisdom for the future.
I am very distrustful of some other people in my family. Nothing on earth
would induce me to leave my daughter alone for five minutes with my MIL,
even assuming she would willingly not smoke cigarettes in the closed room
with Jayn. Luckily Granny definitely wants to stay a phone visitor.
My mother has had a brain aneurism that has affected both her mental
competence, and her physical ability to play. Even before that, her time
with Jayn was always lightly supervised by either dh or myself. Not because
she doesn't love Jayn to the ends of the earth but because I know how
controlling and manipulating she is. (I was there for a long time) I think
she knows that if she ever raised a hand to Jayn, we would probably never
allow her to see her again.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
Joanne Watson
Hi Sherri-Lee,
Thanks for your friendly words and for trying to promote respect for
freedom of choice and diversity. I am leaving the group because my
having bedtimes in my house has apparently made me ineligible for
tolerance and inclusion.
I wonder if all these people who are so passionate about knowing
what's right for everyone else's children are promoting this kind of
arrogance and lack of tolerance in their own homes? I would hope not.
It's hard enough
for kids to learn arrogant behavior, but to have to be tired and
arrogant simultaneously, now that could be a really rough road. But
like everything else, I guess they'll just have to sleuth that out for
themselves.
Anyway, thanks again for your kindness and respect.
Blessings -
Joanne
Thanks for your friendly words and for trying to promote respect for
freedom of choice and diversity. I am leaving the group because my
having bedtimes in my house has apparently made me ineligible for
tolerance and inclusion.
I wonder if all these people who are so passionate about knowing
what's right for everyone else's children are promoting this kind of
arrogance and lack of tolerance in their own homes? I would hope not.
It's hard enough
for kids to learn arrogant behavior, but to have to be tired and
arrogant simultaneously, now that could be a really rough road. But
like everything else, I guess they'll just have to sleuth that out for
themselves.
Anyway, thanks again for your kindness and respect.
Blessings -
Joanne
On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 02:16 PM, Sherri-Lee Pressman wrote:
> Hi Joanne,
>
> I just wanted to say I hear what you are saying and respect your
> choice. Sounds like you are doing what is right for your family and
> they are thriving because of it.
>
> I to believe in more structure around bedtimes and food issues than
> many purist unschoolers, maybe not as much as you (who's to know and
> what does it matter?) but more than the people who go with no
> resistrictions at all. I have loosened up on them a lot since joining
> this list and others and have found positive benefits to doing that,
> but for me my goal is not to remove all limits as that isn't what I
> want.
>
> I am thinking that when my dd is finally ready to sleep in her own
> room (who knows whent that will be) I *might* be ready to let go and
> say to her that she can go to bed when she wants but I will still have
> a time when she needs to be ready and in her room for quiet > activities.
>
> The peace in our home is saying loudly that this is working for us now.
>
> Thanks for sharing your perspective,
>
> Sherri-Lee
> Looking for safe and natural health products?
> http://www.aloeessence.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joanne Watson
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2004 10:40 AM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Speaking of bedtimes....
>
>
> There is an underlying current of mutual respect for our own unique
> ways and needs,
> but in terms of health and care, I think it would be irresponsible of
> me to be quite that
> passive. There are lots of things for her to learn through trial and
> error. Minimally, I think
> I can locate health-related pitfalls if she's not yet ready to
> recognize them as such. I
> don't view setting these kinds of boundaries as being restrictive. I
> think I understand
> that you do and I respect your perspective. It comes from a loving
> place and if it
> works for you and your family, don't mess with it.
>
> I was an over-protected child. I am so careful to follow the old
> wisdom about giving
> children roots first, and then wings. We're still on the roots
> phase.
> I let her go and I
> trust, but I guide. I am called to that kind of mothering. How
> could
> I violate my basic
> instincts when they are serving her so well so far? Shouldn't a
> change
> be in response
> to some unfulfilled needs of hers, some unhappiness? Something she
> asks of me?
>
> Happy, Healthy, Safe, Free to be Herself- that's what I'm seeing in
> my
> daughter.
> I think children need to be cared for and nurtured. I guess we all
> have different ways of
> addressing those need, which is cool. This exchange has been
> stimulating.
>
> Peace-
>
> Joanne
>
> On Wednesday, June 23, 2004, at 12:52 PM, Valerie wrote:
>
>> ****** It's all about choices - hers and yours. You deciding what
>> she needs isn't possible, just as you would probably find it
>> ludicrous if she told you what time you had to go to bed.
>
>
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Robyn Coburn
Here's what happens at our home. I should preface by saying that my dh
presently has no work schedule that requires he sleep/wake by any clock
other than his own choosing, so we are thankful that our whole life is
probably much more flexible than most. I also only have the one child.
Jayn (4.5) lives by a 26-28 hour day. This means that her sleep/wake
schedule is pretty much always on a slow march around the clock. To a great
extent that means mine is too. As a baby she slept 4 hour stretches from the
get-go, sometimes more, so I got my rest back then. ;)
It has been in the last few months that naps have mostly disappeared from
our life, although sometimes Jayn seems to use a nap as a tool to get back
onto a day shift. If she catches a cold, as she did last week, she seems to
sleep a little longer, accelerating the clock march. DH is the big nap taker
here now. I have never liked naps, and since having a baby just can't. It
seems like every time you hear a story like some kid that wandered out into
the snow, the mother starts her interview with "I was taking a nap....." I
am twitchy and don't rest if I am in bed during the day and Jayn is not.
She and I are currently on a night shift. We stay in this mode for a few
days every 6 or so weeks, before Jayn suddenly "flips" back to really early
mornings. Jayn gets up at about 3-4pm; I am usually up a couple of hours
earlier and spending time with dh. We have been dashing outside to our pool
each afternoon, often with our neighbor kids, taking advantage of the
daylight savings time. We are up all night (dinner is like an early lunch),
and I usually start to wilt at about 5am. Jayn has been staying up until
about 7 or 8am.
In the course of all of us going to bed close to the same time, as occurs
for part of our cycle, we have a few practices. For example Jayn will nurse
to sleep on the sofa, then I will carry her into bed, and dh and I go also,
talking together for a while before lights out. Another thing is for Jayn to
come to bed earlier with us, and quietly watch cartoons before nursing to
sleep. This is great for when she is ready to sleep anytime between 11 and
say 2am, because she naturally settles and the cartoons are on for such a
brief period. I will come awake to realize she is sleeping and switch off
the set. We have tried this procedure when Jayn has not been tired and she
has watched cartoons for so long that they start to disturb both dh's and my
sleep, not to mention her interrupting my sleep for me to get her snacks.
When she is not tired late at night, therefore, she stays in the living room
with me, and dh goes to bed, usually around 2am if he has napped earlier, or
around midnight. (He just said goodnight) We are fortunate that this old
apartment building is very sound proof. By their own admission, our
neighbors never heard Jayn crying when she was younger.
If I am getting too tired, and hopefully before I become grouchy, I start to
let Jayn know how I am feeling. I will put on my pj's when I am ready, and
will lay down on the sofa to rest if it is clear to me that Jayn is still
full of energy.
If I can tell that she is starting to wilt, she may only need a few minutes
of quiet before being ready to sleep. I will go to the bedroom, telling her
I am very tired, and she will follow a few minutes later. The magic key here
is that if she is tired she is happy for me to go to the bedroom, and
doesn't start calling out asking for things, or becoming afraid and lonely.
There are also times when Jayn is on a kind of reverse pattern. She awakens
extremely early - like 3.30 or 4am. This is another time, when *I* feel more
comfortable if I go to the sofa while she plays in the living room, rather
than tossing fretfully in the bedroom. I can get her a snack, and she will
often either watch tv or her dvd's, and I just put a pillow over my head and
time passes fast, until I am rested well enough. We then have a pretty
normal day, with outings, playdates, the park, visitors.
The great development is in Jayn starting to recognize her own cues and
tiredness level. In the recent past she would just suddenly become whiney,
cranky or even sometimes instantly frustrated to a fury by simple stuff in
her playing. These have been very obvious signs to me that she was ready to
sleep, and I start turning off lights (unless she protests) and offer
comfort and nursing. Now she has started initiating her own wind down
process, changing her playing from various vigorous games, and loud and
talkative storytelling, to quiet computer games with gentle music, wanting
to sit and draw, and recently requesting quiet music from the satellite to
dance gently to instead of Tom and Jerry type cartoons. There is much less
of the crying type of transition. These days she rarely wants to read as
part of a wind down process - preferring reading for long periods in the
"day", followed by really enriched seeming role playing games with her
dolls, derived from the characters.
Would I prefer that we lived a more normal schedule all the time? Sure,
partly because it is somewhat physically grueling for me - less so now that
I am not mentally fighting it - plus we sometimes have to miss stuff when
Jayn is sleeping through it. Partly because it is hard on dh to be
relatively isolated from us so much of the time. However, he also spends a
lot of time out of the house doing stuff, regardless of whether Jayn and I
are sleeping in. In fact sometimes he comes home around midday/lunchtime and
we are just getting up and it is perfect. Tonight we went for a "night walk"
around our neighborhood, at Jayn's instigation.
Sometimes I think he has an exaggerated idea of how much Jayn's odd sleep
patterns are really affecting his daily life. In the past it has made him
grumpier if I suggested this to him, so now I don't. We do a lot of talking
about how happy Jayn is, and I express my gratitude to him, and we are all
happier when he makes the effort to choose acceptance.
On the other hand, there is quite a lot that could be lost. Jayn and I get
to spend a lot of time together without distractions. Since her friends are
sleeping, they can't come over. Nor can I be getting on with housework in
the middle of the night. I mean the neighbors don't hear much, but I think
turning on the Hoover might stretch the goodwill, not to mention dh's rest.
The kind of play that she does late in her day, the equivalent of after
dinner, seems extra imaginative, exciting, creative, and full of connections
being made. It seems to me that we have deeply bonding, wondrous
conversations and games very easily.
I just trust that this physical inborn thing of a longer diurnal rhythm is
something that she will either naturally grow out of, or learn to adapt to
in time, when she has the motivation to do so from wanting to engage in more
activities in the outside world.
Robyn L. Coburn
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presently has no work schedule that requires he sleep/wake by any clock
other than his own choosing, so we are thankful that our whole life is
probably much more flexible than most. I also only have the one child.
Jayn (4.5) lives by a 26-28 hour day. This means that her sleep/wake
schedule is pretty much always on a slow march around the clock. To a great
extent that means mine is too. As a baby she slept 4 hour stretches from the
get-go, sometimes more, so I got my rest back then. ;)
It has been in the last few months that naps have mostly disappeared from
our life, although sometimes Jayn seems to use a nap as a tool to get back
onto a day shift. If she catches a cold, as she did last week, she seems to
sleep a little longer, accelerating the clock march. DH is the big nap taker
here now. I have never liked naps, and since having a baby just can't. It
seems like every time you hear a story like some kid that wandered out into
the snow, the mother starts her interview with "I was taking a nap....." I
am twitchy and don't rest if I am in bed during the day and Jayn is not.
She and I are currently on a night shift. We stay in this mode for a few
days every 6 or so weeks, before Jayn suddenly "flips" back to really early
mornings. Jayn gets up at about 3-4pm; I am usually up a couple of hours
earlier and spending time with dh. We have been dashing outside to our pool
each afternoon, often with our neighbor kids, taking advantage of the
daylight savings time. We are up all night (dinner is like an early lunch),
and I usually start to wilt at about 5am. Jayn has been staying up until
about 7 or 8am.
In the course of all of us going to bed close to the same time, as occurs
for part of our cycle, we have a few practices. For example Jayn will nurse
to sleep on the sofa, then I will carry her into bed, and dh and I go also,
talking together for a while before lights out. Another thing is for Jayn to
come to bed earlier with us, and quietly watch cartoons before nursing to
sleep. This is great for when she is ready to sleep anytime between 11 and
say 2am, because she naturally settles and the cartoons are on for such a
brief period. I will come awake to realize she is sleeping and switch off
the set. We have tried this procedure when Jayn has not been tired and she
has watched cartoons for so long that they start to disturb both dh's and my
sleep, not to mention her interrupting my sleep for me to get her snacks.
When she is not tired late at night, therefore, she stays in the living room
with me, and dh goes to bed, usually around 2am if he has napped earlier, or
around midnight. (He just said goodnight) We are fortunate that this old
apartment building is very sound proof. By their own admission, our
neighbors never heard Jayn crying when she was younger.
If I am getting too tired, and hopefully before I become grouchy, I start to
let Jayn know how I am feeling. I will put on my pj's when I am ready, and
will lay down on the sofa to rest if it is clear to me that Jayn is still
full of energy.
If I can tell that she is starting to wilt, she may only need a few minutes
of quiet before being ready to sleep. I will go to the bedroom, telling her
I am very tired, and she will follow a few minutes later. The magic key here
is that if she is tired she is happy for me to go to the bedroom, and
doesn't start calling out asking for things, or becoming afraid and lonely.
There are also times when Jayn is on a kind of reverse pattern. She awakens
extremely early - like 3.30 or 4am. This is another time, when *I* feel more
comfortable if I go to the sofa while she plays in the living room, rather
than tossing fretfully in the bedroom. I can get her a snack, and she will
often either watch tv or her dvd's, and I just put a pillow over my head and
time passes fast, until I am rested well enough. We then have a pretty
normal day, with outings, playdates, the park, visitors.
The great development is in Jayn starting to recognize her own cues and
tiredness level. In the recent past she would just suddenly become whiney,
cranky or even sometimes instantly frustrated to a fury by simple stuff in
her playing. These have been very obvious signs to me that she was ready to
sleep, and I start turning off lights (unless she protests) and offer
comfort and nursing. Now she has started initiating her own wind down
process, changing her playing from various vigorous games, and loud and
talkative storytelling, to quiet computer games with gentle music, wanting
to sit and draw, and recently requesting quiet music from the satellite to
dance gently to instead of Tom and Jerry type cartoons. There is much less
of the crying type of transition. These days she rarely wants to read as
part of a wind down process - preferring reading for long periods in the
"day", followed by really enriched seeming role playing games with her
dolls, derived from the characters.
Would I prefer that we lived a more normal schedule all the time? Sure,
partly because it is somewhat physically grueling for me - less so now that
I am not mentally fighting it - plus we sometimes have to miss stuff when
Jayn is sleeping through it. Partly because it is hard on dh to be
relatively isolated from us so much of the time. However, he also spends a
lot of time out of the house doing stuff, regardless of whether Jayn and I
are sleeping in. In fact sometimes he comes home around midday/lunchtime and
we are just getting up and it is perfect. Tonight we went for a "night walk"
around our neighborhood, at Jayn's instigation.
Sometimes I think he has an exaggerated idea of how much Jayn's odd sleep
patterns are really affecting his daily life. In the past it has made him
grumpier if I suggested this to him, so now I don't. We do a lot of talking
about how happy Jayn is, and I express my gratitude to him, and we are all
happier when he makes the effort to choose acceptance.
On the other hand, there is quite a lot that could be lost. Jayn and I get
to spend a lot of time together without distractions. Since her friends are
sleeping, they can't come over. Nor can I be getting on with housework in
the middle of the night. I mean the neighbors don't hear much, but I think
turning on the Hoover might stretch the goodwill, not to mention dh's rest.
The kind of play that she does late in her day, the equivalent of after
dinner, seems extra imaginative, exciting, creative, and full of connections
being made. It seems to me that we have deeply bonding, wondrous
conversations and games very easily.
I just trust that this physical inborn thing of a longer diurnal rhythm is
something that she will either naturally grow out of, or learn to adapt to
in time, when she has the motivation to do so from wanting to engage in more
activities in the outside world.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
<<<10:00 is bedtime for the 13 year old. She's much less into routines,
of course >>>
I'm curious about the "of course", since my dd is 4.5 and I have no
experience with teens.
What do you mean?
Robyn L. Coburn
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of course >>>
I'm curious about the "of course", since my dd is 4.5 and I have no
experience with teens.
What do you mean?
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
<<<I am leaving the group.>>>
Well I had asked Joanne a question about one of her posts regarding teens -
a clarification really, of the phrase "of course" - since my dd is 4.5 and I
don't know much about teens. I guess she won't be around to answer it.
I can ask a different version generally to the list, however.
I am wondering if people's experiences have been that the tolerance of or
desire for routines (of any sort) have increased or decreased as kids become
teens/adolescents. Do they simply become the opposite of what they were as
youngsters, or do those traits intensify, or are the experiences so widely
varying that there is no predicting. I am referring to routines that are
initiated by the child in question, not imposed upon them, *of course*.
At the close of my last lengthy bedtime post, I wrote about Jayn growing out
of her current diurnal rhythm. So I started thinking about changes that can
be expected, or not at all expected, and then I was re-reading Joanne's
bedtime post...and so I started to wonder....Jayn has no set routines of any
kind. Nor do I, other than to stave off a later headache by having a cup of
coffee when I wake up. Nor does dh, as far as I can tell (he is a classic
Gemini, I gather). Maybe if I am more mindful of searching for them, I might
find some. Jayn is the happiest, least moody child I know. I don't want to
start trying to fix what ain't broke.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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Well I had asked Joanne a question about one of her posts regarding teens -
a clarification really, of the phrase "of course" - since my dd is 4.5 and I
don't know much about teens. I guess she won't be around to answer it.
I can ask a different version generally to the list, however.
I am wondering if people's experiences have been that the tolerance of or
desire for routines (of any sort) have increased or decreased as kids become
teens/adolescents. Do they simply become the opposite of what they were as
youngsters, or do those traits intensify, or are the experiences so widely
varying that there is no predicting. I am referring to routines that are
initiated by the child in question, not imposed upon them, *of course*.
At the close of my last lengthy bedtime post, I wrote about Jayn growing out
of her current diurnal rhythm. So I started thinking about changes that can
be expected, or not at all expected, and then I was re-reading Joanne's
bedtime post...and so I started to wonder....Jayn has no set routines of any
kind. Nor do I, other than to stave off a later headache by having a cup of
coffee when I wake up. Nor does dh, as far as I can tell (he is a classic
Gemini, I gather). Maybe if I am more mindful of searching for them, I might
find some. Jayn is the happiest, least moody child I know. I don't want to
start trying to fix what ain't broke.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.707 / Virus Database: 463 - Release Date: 6/15/2004
sandrewmama
on 6/24/04 3:02 AM, Robyn Coburn at dezigna@... wrote:
Grandma and Grandpa have 13 grandchildren of which my son was #3 and the
first boy. By the time he was six and trying to sleep-over I figure at least
seven of the thirteen grandchildren had been born and had already slept over
at Grandmas. Most all of the other granchildren besides mine, started
regular sleep-overs at Grandma's within their first 6 months of life,
whether they liked it or not.
Our family is the only one of the seven (in my husband's family) who did any
of the following: were vegetarian, used a nurse-midwife, had natural
childbirth, came home within 6 hours of birth, practiced the family bed,
breastfed exclusively for 12+ months, extended nursed, didn't vaccinate,
attachment parented, used a sling, didn't participate in church and
homeschooled.
My mother and father-in-law must've thought I was from a different planet
and had come to abduct their beloved son and grandchildren!
Keeping all that in mind, I must say that that Grandma is the most warm and
loving of the three that my children have (or have had -- step-Grandma
passed away). She gets down on the floor and really plays with the kids,
finds fun kitchen projects for little ones to "help" with, gives lots of
hugs and attends pretty much all events she's invited to. They have one of
the most grandchild-friendly homes I've seen.
Dd is also a completely different child than her older brother. She is
fiercely independent, driven to be bigger and older than the rest in spite
of her placement as #8 in the cousin lineup and she has a special bond with
Grandma that older brother never developed.
So, with differences in personality along with our experience and knowledge
of what to expect, dd was much better prepared to succeed with her first
overnight attempt. We didn't try to change Grandma, we just made sure dd
was ready.
Chris
> I'm interested to know how you resolved this issue with Grandma. ObviouslyWell, I wouldn't say we resolved it, exactly.
> you have, or you wouldn't be allowing your dd to be over there. I'm always
> keen to hear how people deal with these relatives whom they love, but have
> different philosophies, kind of banking this wisdom for the future.
Grandma and Grandpa have 13 grandchildren of which my son was #3 and the
first boy. By the time he was six and trying to sleep-over I figure at least
seven of the thirteen grandchildren had been born and had already slept over
at Grandmas. Most all of the other granchildren besides mine, started
regular sleep-overs at Grandma's within their first 6 months of life,
whether they liked it or not.
Our family is the only one of the seven (in my husband's family) who did any
of the following: were vegetarian, used a nurse-midwife, had natural
childbirth, came home within 6 hours of birth, practiced the family bed,
breastfed exclusively for 12+ months, extended nursed, didn't vaccinate,
attachment parented, used a sling, didn't participate in church and
homeschooled.
My mother and father-in-law must've thought I was from a different planet
and had come to abduct their beloved son and grandchildren!
Keeping all that in mind, I must say that that Grandma is the most warm and
loving of the three that my children have (or have had -- step-Grandma
passed away). She gets down on the floor and really plays with the kids,
finds fun kitchen projects for little ones to "help" with, gives lots of
hugs and attends pretty much all events she's invited to. They have one of
the most grandchild-friendly homes I've seen.
Dd is also a completely different child than her older brother. She is
fiercely independent, driven to be bigger and older than the rest in spite
of her placement as #8 in the cousin lineup and she has a special bond with
Grandma that older brother never developed.
So, with differences in personality along with our experience and knowledge
of what to expect, dd was much better prepared to succeed with her first
overnight attempt. We didn't try to change Grandma, we just made sure dd
was ready.
Chris
Wendy E
I'm sorry you feel this way Joanne...I really appreciated your
comments and perspective...and you seemed pretty firm in your own
opinions and "agreeing to disagree" stance a few post back. I know
when some don't "agree to disagree" and challenge your choices it is
difficult to keep a thick skin...especially when we are talking
about those dearest to us...our children. This is a discussion
group and people will discuss...and people state their views. It is
interesting for me to get all different points of view. I
personally feel you are still very eligible for inclusion...and I
don't think those who disagreed with you see you as ineligible
either...they just had a different opinion than you. Tolerance? Is
questioning or disagreeing with your choice not tolerating you? One
thing I have learned is that sometimes you have to be the tolerant
one...tolerant that other people might not agree with everything you
do, KWIM? Anyway, if you are still reading this and haven't
unsubbed...thanks for your comments and I hope you stay on....
Wendy
--- In [email protected], Joanne Watson
<joannecwatson@c...> wrote:
I am leaving the group because my
comments and perspective...and you seemed pretty firm in your own
opinions and "agreeing to disagree" stance a few post back. I know
when some don't "agree to disagree" and challenge your choices it is
difficult to keep a thick skin...especially when we are talking
about those dearest to us...our children. This is a discussion
group and people will discuss...and people state their views. It is
interesting for me to get all different points of view. I
personally feel you are still very eligible for inclusion...and I
don't think those who disagreed with you see you as ineligible
either...they just had a different opinion than you. Tolerance? Is
questioning or disagreeing with your choice not tolerating you? One
thing I have learned is that sometimes you have to be the tolerant
one...tolerant that other people might not agree with everything you
do, KWIM? Anyway, if you are still reading this and haven't
unsubbed...thanks for your comments and I hope you stay on....
Wendy
--- In [email protected], Joanne Watson
<joannecwatson@c...> wrote:
I am leaving the group because my
> having bedtimes in my house has apparently made me ineligible for
> tolerance and inclusion.