question from a newbie
queenpamedalah
What makes an unschooler "radical?"
??
Curious,
Pamela :)
??
Curious,
Pamela :)
Deb
--- In [email protected], "queenpamedalah"
<swombo@m...> wrote:
philosophy that is 'not school', doesn't look like school, sound
like school, feel like school. It is based on trusting that people,
including kids since they're people too, will learn what they need
when and how they need it in ways that work for them. "Radical"
unschooling is taking that philosophy of trust and applying it to
the rest of life - trusting that our kids will eat what and when and
how works for them, that they'll sleep when their body says sleep
and wake when they're finished with sleep, and so on. Treating kids
with the same trust and respect for their individual selves and
choices that you would for a spouse, friend, other adult person.
So, someone can be unschooling in the academic sense yet have
strictly structured bedtimes, chores, mealtimes, etc. "radical" was
added to differentiate in discussion between folks who extend
unschooling into the whole life of the family.
--Deb
<swombo@m...> wrote:
>Generally, the term 'unschooling' refers to an educational
> What makes an unschooler "radical?"
> ??
> Curious,
> Pamela :)
>
philosophy that is 'not school', doesn't look like school, sound
like school, feel like school. It is based on trusting that people,
including kids since they're people too, will learn what they need
when and how they need it in ways that work for them. "Radical"
unschooling is taking that philosophy of trust and applying it to
the rest of life - trusting that our kids will eat what and when and
how works for them, that they'll sleep when their body says sleep
and wake when they're finished with sleep, and so on. Treating kids
with the same trust and respect for their individual selves and
choices that you would for a spouse, friend, other adult person.
So, someone can be unschooling in the academic sense yet have
strictly structured bedtimes, chores, mealtimes, etc. "radical" was
added to differentiate in discussion between folks who extend
unschooling into the whole life of the family.
--Deb
queenpamedalah
Got it. Well then I'm -almost- a radical homeschooler. We do
impose a bedtime, in that they have to be in bed by a certain time,
but they can play quietly with toys in their beds, but the bed time
is more due to the house schedule so my husband can get his sleep
for work and I can get work done at night for my paying job (I work
freelance).
I am facing a current problem and would appreciate some insight. My
just turned 3 year old still isn't potty trained (egads! I know, but
I'm not a bad mom, really!). He was speech delayed, but we're up to
par now and working on articulation. He is capable of going on the
potty (has done so once or twice when he was at the preschool) and
he can do his own clothes. But I've always felt he shouldn't be
forced; he'll do it when he's ready. But since I pulled him out of
preschool this past October to homeschool, I ask if he wants to go
sit on the potty and he politely declines. I still don't want to
force him, but I don't want him to be untrained at - oh, I don't
know, 14! How do I impose my desire for him to potty train and be
true to the commitment I've made to our family to unschool and try
to maintain that in every aspect of our life?
He doesn't want to wear a pull-up. Do I just wait til it's warmer
and say, oh, sorry, we're out of diapers and let him figure out he
doesn't want to be wet?
Sorry if this is too pedantic. It probably links with some of the
other threads on control issues!
Thanks for listening and any input you may have.
Pamela :)
-by the way, as a brand new homeschooler and unschooler, we had the
best day yesterday! (My husband isn't convinced we accomplished
anything, but I am!) I drug out all of the musical instruments we
have (sticks, play drum, triangles, you name it) and we
made "music." My 5 yr old son discovered reverberation and wanted
to see what made different vibrations. It was awesome watching him
try different things. The 3 yr old just danced and had a good time,
but Nate was really into investigating! It was just one part of a
day without stress, deadlines and commitments. I swear, the best
part of homeschooling is the whole rush to get out the door thing.
It was awful! The stress all of us had - my sons, me (and I'm not a
morning person to begin with!). My son would even look at the clock
in the car and say "uh-oh it's 7:59, we're going to be late". Why
on earth did I ever put him in a situation where he felt bad before
8 am in the morning?!?!
--- In [email protected], "Deb" <soggyboysmom@y...>
wrote:
impose a bedtime, in that they have to be in bed by a certain time,
but they can play quietly with toys in their beds, but the bed time
is more due to the house schedule so my husband can get his sleep
for work and I can get work done at night for my paying job (I work
freelance).
I am facing a current problem and would appreciate some insight. My
just turned 3 year old still isn't potty trained (egads! I know, but
I'm not a bad mom, really!). He was speech delayed, but we're up to
par now and working on articulation. He is capable of going on the
potty (has done so once or twice when he was at the preschool) and
he can do his own clothes. But I've always felt he shouldn't be
forced; he'll do it when he's ready. But since I pulled him out of
preschool this past October to homeschool, I ask if he wants to go
sit on the potty and he politely declines. I still don't want to
force him, but I don't want him to be untrained at - oh, I don't
know, 14! How do I impose my desire for him to potty train and be
true to the commitment I've made to our family to unschool and try
to maintain that in every aspect of our life?
He doesn't want to wear a pull-up. Do I just wait til it's warmer
and say, oh, sorry, we're out of diapers and let him figure out he
doesn't want to be wet?
Sorry if this is too pedantic. It probably links with some of the
other threads on control issues!
Thanks for listening and any input you may have.
Pamela :)
-by the way, as a brand new homeschooler and unschooler, we had the
best day yesterday! (My husband isn't convinced we accomplished
anything, but I am!) I drug out all of the musical instruments we
have (sticks, play drum, triangles, you name it) and we
made "music." My 5 yr old son discovered reverberation and wanted
to see what made different vibrations. It was awesome watching him
try different things. The 3 yr old just danced and had a good time,
but Nate was really into investigating! It was just one part of a
day without stress, deadlines and commitments. I swear, the best
part of homeschooling is the whole rush to get out the door thing.
It was awful! The stress all of us had - my sons, me (and I'm not a
morning person to begin with!). My son would even look at the clock
in the car and say "uh-oh it's 7:59, we're going to be late". Why
on earth did I ever put him in a situation where he felt bad before
8 am in the morning?!?!
--- In [email protected], "Deb" <soggyboysmom@y...>
wrote:
>people,
> --- In [email protected], "queenpamedalah"
> <swombo@m...> wrote:
> >
> > What makes an unschooler "radical?"
> > ??
> > Curious,
> > Pamela :)
> >
> Generally, the term 'unschooling' refers to an educational
> philosophy that is 'not school', doesn't look like school, sound
> like school, feel like school. It is based on trusting that
> including kids since they're people too, will learn what they needand
> when and how they need it in ways that work for them. "Radical"
> unschooling is taking that philosophy of trust and applying it to
> the rest of life - trusting that our kids will eat what and when
> how works for them, that they'll sleep when their body says sleepkids
> and wake when they're finished with sleep, and so on. Treating
> with the same trust and respect for their individual selves andwas
> choices that you would for a spouse, friend, other adult person.
>
> So, someone can be unschooling in the academic sense yet have
> strictly structured bedtimes, chores, mealtimes, etc. "radical"
> added to differentiate in discussion between folks who extend
> unschooling into the whole life of the family.
>
> --Deb
>
kkraczek1969
Hi Pamela, just a quick idea for your 3 yo- have you tried the "Once
Upon a Potty" video? I know it sounds corny, but my kids enjoyed it.
Hope this helps! :)
Kristin
Upon a Potty" video? I know it sounds corny, but my kids enjoyed it.
Hope this helps! :)
Kristin
>
> Got it. Well then I'm -almost- a radical homeschooler. We do
> impose a bedtime, in that they have to be in bed by a certain time,
> but they can play quietly with toys in their beds, but the bed time
> is more due to the house schedule so my husband can get his sleep
> for work and I can get work done at night for my paying job (I work
> freelance).
>
> I am facing a current problem and would appreciate some insight. My
> just turned 3 year old still isn't potty trained (egads! I know, but
> I'm not a bad mom, really!). He was speech delayed, but we're up to
> par now and working on articulation. He is capable of going on the
> potty (has done so once or twice when he was at the preschool) and
> he can do his own clothes. But I've always felt he shouldn't be
> forced; he'll do it when he's ready. But since I pulled him out of
> preschool this past October to homeschool, I ask if he wants to go
> sit on the potty and he politely declines. I still don't want to
> force him, but I don't want him to be untrained at - oh, I don't
> know, 14! How do I impose my desire for him to potty train and be
> true to the commitment I've made to our family to unschool and try
> to maintain that in every aspect of our life?
>
> He doesn't want to wear a pull-up. Do I just wait til it's warmer
> and say, oh, sorry, we're out of diapers and let him figure out he
> doesn't want to be wet?
>
> Sorry if this is too pedantic. It probably links with some of the
> other threads on control issues!
>
> Thanks for listening and any input you may have.
> Pamela :)
>
>
Robyn Coburn
<<<<< I am facing a current problem and would appreciate some insight. My
just turned 3 year old still isn't potty trained (egads! I know, but
I'm not a bad mom, really!). >>>
There is no "egads" - this is NOT late at all. This idea, even jokingly
expressed, that you might be a bad Mom for this has been installed by
Pre-school - see how insidious the school damage can be.
<<<<< How do I impose my desire for him to potty train and be
true to the commitment I've made to our family to unschool and try
to maintain that in every aspect of our life? >>>>
You don't.
The concept of "impose", the prioritizing of your desire - especially in an
area that is so fundamentally and intensely part of his personal development
- is anathema to the Principles of Respect and Autonomy that are the heart
of Unschooling.
I think there are a quite few hints in your post also that having
Unschooling as the foundation "every aspect" of your family life is still a
goal (a worthy one) rather than a place you have reached.
<<<< He doesn't want to wear a pull-up. Do I just wait til it's warmer
and say, oh, sorry, we're out of diapers and let him figure out he
doesn't want to be wet? >>>
This sounds very manipulative, especially if he is still comfortable with
diapers.
You may have bought into the idea promoted by the diaper industry that
pull-ups are a necessary step in the road to potty training. Lots of people
on the lists report using them, but it seems that never for the "advertised
purpose" of "encouraging" (= forcing) potty training.
Rather it was/is for the purpose of increasing and enhancing their
children's comfort and Ease in mostly public or sleeping situations. (An
unscientific survey based on my recollections!)
We never used them at all.
Here is Jayn's potty learning story, a repost from when she was 4 - she is
now 6:
<<<< Try and lose the word training from your thinking and you are well on
track. Also there are many and plenty of youngsters who are not seeming to
do anything until they are 4, then suddenly seem to learn it all overnight.
Jayn is four and completely moved from cloth diapers to using the adult
commode all the time, from about 2 ½ to about 3 ½ (no dyedee at night)
absolutely painlessly without any effort from me. She began just as you are
describing (bar the flush action) [sitting on her potty and pretending to go
when I went].
Next she would use the potty before we went swimming through her swimsuit,
at my invitation. We were away from home at the time with my mother going
through an illness, so I was surprised that she wanted to start the process
her life being disrupted and all.
When we got home in to our apartment, I would ask her whether she wanted to
be without her diaper for a while. I would move the potty around the house
to whatever room we were in, and show her how to pour it out usually she
asked me to do it anyway. She would tell me that she had poo-poo in her
butt and then run to her potty. I guess we would have about one accident
a week, or less. Slowly the potty moved from in any room to the hallway, and
finally the bathroom again. We used diapers when we went out, and then
started leaving them at home, but taking our potty in the car. She seemed to
go from needing the diapers to simply telling me she wanted to peepee very
quickly.
We still used a diaper at night, and towards the end of that she would wake
up dry, and use her diaper when she awoke giggling about it sometimes. I
started asking her whether she wanted a diaper or not, or taking it off
first thing, so she became used to going into the bathroom a little while
after waking. There was a brief period of confusion for her about whether
she had her panties or her diaper on but this only lasted a few nights. We
used a couple of washable bedliners (rather than disposable) from Bed, Bath
and Beyond to protect our mattress. She has wet the bed once in the last
four or five months.
What we did not use were pull ups (another invention of the disposable
diaper industry), rewards, punishments, or any other numerous strategies
from Potty train your child overnight! experts. She still announces her
intention to go to the bathroom, although less often. She refuses to use
small commodes, in the places where kid size ones are available saying she
is a big girl now and will use the big potty. The only help she still
requires of me is wiping her butt on the occasions where that is
necessary. >>>>>
<<<<< It probably links with some of the other threads on control issues!
<<<<< The 3 yr old just danced and had a good time,
but Nate was really into investigating! >>>>>
Soon you will be able to let go of your need to make this distinction...soon
you will see that there is no "just" dancing - that the good time is just as
valid for learning as any kind of more academic looking "investigating".
There is no lower age limit on investigating. There is no upper age limit on
"just" having a good time.
Welcome to the journey.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 1/6/2006
just turned 3 year old still isn't potty trained (egads! I know, but
I'm not a bad mom, really!). >>>
There is no "egads" - this is NOT late at all. This idea, even jokingly
expressed, that you might be a bad Mom for this has been installed by
Pre-school - see how insidious the school damage can be.
<<<<< How do I impose my desire for him to potty train and be
true to the commitment I've made to our family to unschool and try
to maintain that in every aspect of our life? >>>>
You don't.
The concept of "impose", the prioritizing of your desire - especially in an
area that is so fundamentally and intensely part of his personal development
- is anathema to the Principles of Respect and Autonomy that are the heart
of Unschooling.
I think there are a quite few hints in your post also that having
Unschooling as the foundation "every aspect" of your family life is still a
goal (a worthy one) rather than a place you have reached.
<<<< He doesn't want to wear a pull-up. Do I just wait til it's warmer
and say, oh, sorry, we're out of diapers and let him figure out he
doesn't want to be wet? >>>
This sounds very manipulative, especially if he is still comfortable with
diapers.
You may have bought into the idea promoted by the diaper industry that
pull-ups are a necessary step in the road to potty training. Lots of people
on the lists report using them, but it seems that never for the "advertised
purpose" of "encouraging" (= forcing) potty training.
Rather it was/is for the purpose of increasing and enhancing their
children's comfort and Ease in mostly public or sleeping situations. (An
unscientific survey based on my recollections!)
We never used them at all.
Here is Jayn's potty learning story, a repost from when she was 4 - she is
now 6:
<<<< Try and lose the word training from your thinking and you are well on
track. Also there are many and plenty of youngsters who are not seeming to
do anything until they are 4, then suddenly seem to learn it all overnight.
Jayn is four and completely moved from cloth diapers to using the adult
commode all the time, from about 2 ½ to about 3 ½ (no dyedee at night)
absolutely painlessly without any effort from me. She began just as you are
describing (bar the flush action) [sitting on her potty and pretending to go
when I went].
Next she would use the potty before we went swimming through her swimsuit,
at my invitation. We were away from home at the time with my mother going
through an illness, so I was surprised that she wanted to start the process
her life being disrupted and all.
When we got home in to our apartment, I would ask her whether she wanted to
be without her diaper for a while. I would move the potty around the house
to whatever room we were in, and show her how to pour it out usually she
asked me to do it anyway. She would tell me that she had poo-poo in her
butt and then run to her potty. I guess we would have about one accident
a week, or less. Slowly the potty moved from in any room to the hallway, and
finally the bathroom again. We used diapers when we went out, and then
started leaving them at home, but taking our potty in the car. She seemed to
go from needing the diapers to simply telling me she wanted to peepee very
quickly.
We still used a diaper at night, and towards the end of that she would wake
up dry, and use her diaper when she awoke giggling about it sometimes. I
started asking her whether she wanted a diaper or not, or taking it off
first thing, so she became used to going into the bathroom a little while
after waking. There was a brief period of confusion for her about whether
she had her panties or her diaper on but this only lasted a few nights. We
used a couple of washable bedliners (rather than disposable) from Bed, Bath
and Beyond to protect our mattress. She has wet the bed once in the last
four or five months.
What we did not use were pull ups (another invention of the disposable
diaper industry), rewards, punishments, or any other numerous strategies
from Potty train your child overnight! experts. She still announces her
intention to go to the bathroom, although less often. She refuses to use
small commodes, in the places where kid size ones are available saying she
is a big girl now and will use the big potty. The only help she still
requires of me is wiping her butt on the occasions where that is
necessary. >>>>>
<<<<< It probably links with some of the other threads on control issues!
>>>>It's great that you are seeing that link.
<<<<< The 3 yr old just danced and had a good time,
but Nate was really into investigating! >>>>>
Soon you will be able to let go of your need to make this distinction...soon
you will see that there is no "just" dancing - that the good time is just as
valid for learning as any kind of more academic looking "investigating".
There is no lower age limit on investigating. There is no upper age limit on
"just" having a good time.
Welcome to the journey.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.15/223 - Release Date: 1/6/2006
[email protected]
Three years old isn't even unusual for a boy to not use a toilet regularly. I know it can seem like forever when you are changing diapers but he really will eventually want to use the toilet. I don't know if you use disposable diapers.....some kids really have trouble with switching to toilet when they use those. My advice would be to relax....it will happen.
Julie S.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: kkraczek1969 <kkraczek1969@...>
Date: Saturday, January 7, 2006 9:06 pm
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: question from a newbie - Radical homeschooling
> Hi Pamela, just a quick idea for your 3 yo- have you tried the "Once
> Upon a Potty" video? I know it sounds corny, but my kids enjoyed it.
> Hope this helps! :)
>
> Kristin
> >
> > Got it. Well then I'm -almost- a radical homeschooler. We do
> > impose a bedtime, in that they have to be in bed by a certain
> time,
> > but they can play quietly with toys in their beds, but the bed
> time
> > is more due to the house schedule so my husband can get his
> sleep
> > for work and I can get work done at night for my paying job (I
> work
> > freelance).
> >
> > I am facing a current problem and would appreciate some insight.
> My
> > just turned 3 year old still isn't potty trained (egads! I know,
> but
> > I'm not a bad mom, really!). He was speech delayed, but we're
> up to
> > par now and working on articulation. He is capable of going on
> the
> > potty (has done so once or twice when he was at the preschool)
> and
> > he can do his own clothes. But I've always felt he shouldn't be
> > forced; he'll do it when he's ready. But since I pulled him out
> of
> > preschool this past October to homeschool, I ask if he wants to
> go
> > sit on the potty and he politely declines. I still don't want
> to
> > force him, but I don't want him to be untrained at - oh, I don't
> > know, 14! How do I impose my desire for him to potty train and
> be
> > true to the commitment I've made to our family to unschool and
> try
> > to maintain that in every aspect of our life?
> >
> > He doesn't want to wear a pull-up. Do I just wait til it's
> warmer
> > and say, oh, sorry, we're out of diapers and let him figure out
> he
> > doesn't want to be wet?
> >
> > Sorry if this is too pedantic. It probably links with some of
> the
> > other threads on control issues!
> >
> > Thanks for listening and any input you may have.
> > Pamela :)
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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