beanmommy2

I have been reading the thread about chores, and this is mostly how
I do things too. (My oldest is four.) But I have one concern that
I'm hoping you guys can clarify for me:

If you regularly clean up their room and toys, etc, as a "gift" to
them, don't they grow up thinking that picking up is not their
problem or responsibility, that some one is always going to come
along and do it for them?

Wouldn't that lead to going to other people's houses, say, for
dinner, and just walking away when they're done eating because, hey,
putting away dishes and helping clear tables isn't something *I* do -
- other people are supposed to do it for me? Or wouldn't it make
them have no qualms about littering, because, hey, at home, I make
all kinds of messes and no one complains or expects me to clean it
up? Wouldn't it lead to think of your parents as your personal
servants and to treat them with a sort of "I snap my fingers and you
jump" kind of attitude?


Obviously the answer to this is not "Yes," but if someone would
explain WHY it doesn't work that way, (because to me it seems like
it would), I would appreciate it.

Jenny

Robyn Coburn

<<<< Obviously the answer to this is not "Yes," but if someone would
explain WHY it doesn't work that way, (because to me it seems like
it would), I would appreciate it. >>>

It is amazing isn't it? It seems so counter-intuitive because it is so the
opposite of conventional parenting and cultural expectations.

I think it is simply because children live up to what is modeled for them
and how they are treated. What is being modeled (by the cleaning gifts and
presumably parental courteous behavior when dining at friends' homes) are
the Principles of Kindness, Giving and Consideration for Others, instead of
the idea of "Every one *has to* take of themselves because no-one will help
you" or "You are a bad person if you don't do things for others, but no-one
will do things for you".

The children have the experience of Generosity, and end up wanting to give
to others freely. They are not carrying resentments from being forced, or
judged negatively or the feeling like they are held to a higher standard
than the adults in their lives. They are not waiting for the moment that
they are out from under anyone's thumb to behave as they would wish to. They
are not acting from a wellspring of installed guilt.

Robyn L. Coburn

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----Original Message-----
From: John & Karen Buxcel <buxcel@...>
I have to say that I wonder the same thing, about how children might begin
to EXPECT that everyone is there to wait on them, and also may not be
gracious with their manners when they are at someone else's house.
We have a little friend who is EXACTLY this way. Mama does everything for
him, and he comes over and leaves some pretty significant messes and seems
quite unappreciative, almost rude sometimes.
So, this freaks me out thinking "i don't want my children to be this way".
I want to believe in what Robyn spoke of, that children will live what is
being modeled to them, but when I see proof in the opposite, that concerns
me.
So. . .? Any insight here?


-=-=-=-=-

One day when we first started to unschool, I was weeding in the garden. Cameron came
out and asked whether I wanted him to help. I said that I wanted him to help IF he wanted to help. If he
didn't want to help, it wasn't the kind of help I wanted.

He was there with me because none of his friends could play just then---they were grounded or doing chores.
He asked why *he* didn't have chores. I said that I expected him to help because he *wanted* to, not because
I could make him. I wanted him to help when he felt ready to. *I* didn't do things out of martyrdom or
because I felt I *had* to. I did things because I CHOSE to. As soon as he'd CHOOSE to help, I'd be MORE
than willing to accpet his help.

It took a couple of years. <g>

But he's SUCH a help now! And joyfully!

What matters is that they see *you* CHOOSING to do things around the house and *for* them with joy and
because you want to, because you choose to.

I'm guessing that child's mom doesn't do things so much out of love as out of guilt/responsibility/*have*to.
That she's unappreciative of him and rude to him about the messes he makes.
That makes a BIG difference!

~KellyKelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<We have a little friend who is EXACTLY this way. Mama does everything
for him, and he comes over and leaves some pretty significant messes and
seems quite unappreciative, almost rude sometimes.
So, this freaks me out thinking "i don't want my children to be this way".
I want to believe in what Robyn spoke of, that children will live what is
being modeled to them, but when I see proof in the opposite, that concerns
me.>>>>

Are they Unschoolers?

I'm not being facetious in asking. It really does make a difference because
Unschooling permeates every part of the relationships between parent and
child.

How does his mother speak to him? What is their relationship like? Is she
joyful or a martyr about it?

Do your children behave that way when they visit other people's homes? (Jayn
is much more polite to other people than to me sometimes.)

Robyn L. Coburn

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John & Karen Buxcel

I have to say that I wonder the same thing, about how children might begin
to EXPECT that everyone is there to wait on them, and also may not be
gracious with their manners when they are at someone else's house.
We have a little friend who is EXACTLY this way. Mama does everything for
him, and he comes over and leaves some pretty significant messes and seems
quite unappreciative, almost rude sometimes.
So, this freaks me out thinking "i don't want my children to be this way".
I want to believe in what Robyn spoke of, that children will live what is
being modeled to them, but when I see proof in the opposite, that concerns
me.
So. . .? Any insight here?

Thanks much!
Karen

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: beanmommy2 <beanmommy2@...

If you regularly clean up their room and toys, etc, as a "gift" to
them, don't they grow up thinking that picking up is not their
problem or responsibility, that some one is always going to come
along and do it for them?

-=-=-=-

Depends on the reasons you're doing it and the message they get from you.
-=-=-=-=-


Wouldn't that lead to going to other people's houses, say, for
dinner, and just walking away when they're done eating because, hey,
putting away dishes and helping clear tables isn't something *I* do -
- other people are supposed to do it for me?

-=-=-=-
As a guest, I don't do more than take my dishes to the sink. I personally HATE to have someone in my kitchen (no one loads a dishwasher right! <g>). And I don't always take my plate to the sink---sometimes the meal is more formal and that (clearing the table) would come across as rude. Depends.

But both my boys have always taken their plates to the sink. And we ask their guests to do the same. We ask politely (even though most of their friends do not at home), and they do it here. It helps that my boys do it automatically. But they do it because they've seen me and Ben do it every night here and offer when we're guests. Modelling.

-=-=-=-

Or wouldn't it make
them have no qualms about littering, because, hey, at home, I make
all kinds of messes and no one complains or expects me to clean it
up?

-=-=-=-

Maybe. But Cameron was in the car with a friend who threw trash out the window. He was appalled. We've always modelled picking up litter, so he does the same. What I've noticed is that people who are forced to clean up refuse to when noone is there to enforce the cleaning up!

-=-=-=-


Wouldn't it lead to think of your parents as your personal
servants and to treat them with a sort of "I snap my fingers and you
jump" kind of attitude?

-=-=-=--

Just the opposite. We're here to help each other and the earth. Children who are forced to clean up will develop no personal responsibility---they will only clean when they *have* to.

-=-=-=-


Obviously the answer to this is not "Yes," but if someone would
explain WHY it doesn't work that way, (because to me it seems like
it would), I would appreciate it.
-=-=-=-

If we do things because we WANT to, because we CHOOSE to, we do it happily and joyfully---NOT with resentment. No one *makes* you do things today, why do you do them???

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://liveandlearnconference.org






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: John & Karen Buxcel <buxcel@...>

I have to say that I wonder the same thing, about how children might begin
to EXPECT that everyone is there to wait on them, and also may not be
gracious with their manners when they are at someone else's house.
We have a little friend who is EXACTLY this way. Mama does everything for
him, and he comes over and leaves some pretty significant messes and seems
quite unappreciative, almost rude sometimes.
So, this freaks me out thinking "i don't want my children to be this way".
I want to believe in what Robyn spoke of, that children will live what is
being modeled to them, but when I see proof in the opposite, that concerns
me.
So. . .? Any insight here?

-=-=-=-=-
I had a long response when my computer flipped out.
Basically, it boils down to:

Why do YOU clean up? Do you do it because you choose to or because you have to? No one's making you any
more. Do you do it joyfully?

How do you come across to your children? Do you talk with them about it?

~KellyKelly LovejoyConference CoordinatorLive and Learn Unschooling Conferencehttp://liveandlearnconference.org


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John & Karen Buxcel

on 12/12/05 4:00 PM, Robyn Coburn at dezigna@... wrote:

> Are they Unschoolers?

Yep, they are.

> I'm not being facetious in asking. It really does make a difference because
> Unschooling permeates every part of the relationships between parent and
> child.

I agree. This particular child, though, seems to do an awful lot of taking
and very little giving. And with plenty of attitude.

> How does his mother speak to him? What is their relationship like? Is she
> joyful or a martyr about it?

She stays joyful, as far as I can tell. I can only comment on how I
*perceive* their relationship to be, but to me, it feels like he runs all
over her. If I spend too much time with them, my energy is very out of
whack. I can feel it physically.

> Do your children behave that way when they visit other people's homes? (Jayn
> is much more polite to other people than to me sometimes.)

Great point!! No, my children tend to behave very well at others homes.
Aside from the occasional wanting to jump on the furniture/bed or whatever
that we do at our home, but usually a friendly reminder is enough. This
last question of yours clarifies things for me. I guess I'm worrying about
a 'non-issue' at this point.

Does anyone else have an experience similar to this? If so, how do/did you
handle it? Do I 'go there' with the mother? Leave it be? Limit our time
together?
A sticky situation, however, is that my 6yo son wants to hang out with him.
And when they spend time together, both of my children usually end up
getting very frustrated, the 6yo usually teary, and the 4yo takes on many of
said child's little mannerisms. What to do, what do do?

Whatcha think?
:)
Karen

averyschmidt

> A sticky situation, however, is that my 6yo son wants to hang out
with him.
> And when they spend time together, both of my children usually end up
> getting very frustrated, the 6yo usually teary, and the 4yo takes on
many of
> said child's little mannerisms.

I can't help wondering why your son wants to hang out with this child
when the result for him is usually frustration and tears. Is it
because there's a lack of other friends available to get together
with? If that's the case, I think if I were you I'd focus on forming
some new friendships that were better fits for my children.
Sorry if I missed some info that makes my advice moot. :-)

Patti

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<< She stays joyful, as far as I can tell. I can only comment on how I
*perceive* their relationship to be, but to me, it feels like he runs all
over her. If I spend too much time with them, my energy is very out of
whack. I can feel it physically.>>>>

This is a kinda dilemma, but I strongly suggest that you let go of your
concerns about whether she feels run over (unless she asks you something
about it). It may just that this boy hasn't gotten to the place of Empathy
yet. Or he may turn out to be, in the fullness of time, the first documented
failure of the Unschooling process in this area...

However I do know how it feels to be around kids (and sometimes parents) who
make me feel out of whack with the combination of energies.

<<<< Does anyone else have an experience similar to this? If so, how do/did
you handle it? Do I 'go there' with the mother? Leave it be? Limit our
time together?

A sticky situation, however, is that my 6yo son wants to hang out with him.
And when they spend time together, both of my children usually end up
getting very frustrated, the 6yo usually teary, and the 4yo takes on many of
said child's little mannerisms. What to do, what do do? >>>>>

It is sticky....

I have found that limiting contact of someone that Jayn really loves even
though I don't, backfires. She just focuses even more on wanting to play
with the girl. I just work on keeping myself centered and Detached (in the
Zen way of observing my feelings without acting or making judgments as best
I can) from feelings or irritation. I don't want to make it about me, if you
know what I mean. Either Jayn will come to care about the girl's character
defects that are obvious to me, or she won't.

There is another child, not a homeschooler (all the kids I see as less than
ideal amongst Jayn's play mates are schooled), that we play with regularly.
It seems that Jayn is often in a state of stress after we leave her,
although it is not that they have fought or had trouble playing happily.

She will react by creating a conflict with me (eg demands to go to the toy
store when we are almost home already or some other excessive reaction). She
needs me to be a stalwart object to push against to get her good cry out.
What I do is support her need to work through it, even though it is
sometimes unpleasant.

In fact I had a lot of angst about these demanding outbursts until I
realized the pattern, and how this was one case when the real need was not
what was being overtly expressed. After the storm Jayn returns to being her
sweetest self.

What I have tried to do is expand the number of contacts Jayn has, although
tbh recently Jayn has been in a hunker down at home phase, and has been
really reluctant to go to park days, our best source of contact renewal. She
is also going through an anti-boy phase.

I doubt that there is much you can say to the mother that she might not take
as a criticism - "Your son is rude and messy".

I don't ask more of visiting kids than I would ask of Jayn, although there
are times when I feel that they take advantage of the aura of freedom that
pervades our home. I also don't ask less of them in most respects.

Robyn L. Coburn





Whatcha think?
:)
Karen




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