Ren Allen

Ok, this whole food discussion has got me thinking now...
HOW does one force a child to finish their meal?
HOW does this work?

I remember being threatened, bribed and pushed to eat certain
things...it didn't work very well.

My Jalen would not, could not be forced to eat something under any
circumstances!! THis child knows he has rights, says "NO" to most any
coercion and would never eat something for another human being.
I can't imagine the pain and torture it would take to try this.

So HOW does one "make a child eat all his food"???

It feels SO yucky to me to even think about, but I'm thinking
logistically here....how does this work? WILL a child that is
unschooled actually allow an adult to force food into them when they
don't want it?

Ren

averyschmidt

> Ok, this whole food discussion has got me thinking now...
> HOW does one force a child to finish their meal?
> HOW does this work?

When I was a child I wasn't allowed to get up from the table until
my plate was empty or at least close to empty. Even if it was a
food that completely disgusted me I'd have to eat some of it if I
ever wanted to get back to the things I wanted to do. I'd be the
last one sitting at the table, looking glumly at my congealing meal,
with my siblings back up and playing and the other dishes being
cleared around me. If I held out long enough, and pushed the food
around on my plate enough that it *looked* like I ate a good amount
I could then get up- but that time spent trapped at the table didn't
help my relationship with food *nor* my relationship with my parents.
I, too, am having a hard time seeing this scenario take place in an
unschooling family.

I love that when we have a sit down meal my children often linger at
the table talking and laughing with us even after they're finished
eating. Family meals when I was growing up were something to be
endured and escaped from as soon as possible.

Patti

[email protected]

<<How does this work?>>

For us, I would simply tell Zach that I really, truly wanted him to finish it. If he would start to get up, I would say "Please, really finish this. You know how bad you will feel in the morning. You NEED to finish this."

I was imposing my will onto something that should be his free choice. We weren't yelling or fighting. I wasn't shoving it down his throat. I was imposing myself into his domain.

Julie S.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...>
Date: Wednesday, November 9, 2005 8:54 am
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Forcing people to eat

> Ok, this whole food discussion has got me thinking now...
> HOW does one force a child to finish their meal?
> HOW does this work?
>
> I remember being threatened, bribed and pushed to eat certain
> things...it didn't work very well.
>
> My Jalen would not, could not be forced to eat something under any
> circumstances!! THis child knows he has rights, says "NO" to most any
> coercion and would never eat something for another human being.
> I can't imagine the pain and torture it would take to try this.
>
> So HOW does one "make a child eat all his food"???
>
> It feels SO yucky to me to even think about, but I'm thinking
> logistically here....how does this work? WILL a child that is
> unschooled actually allow an adult to force food into them when they
> don't want it?
>
> Ren
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
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Sylvia Toyama

So HOW does one "make a child eat all his food"???

******

Well, my mother managed to do it for years (with the
exception of brussels spouts which I am physically
incapable of swallowing). But it wasn't pretty, or
kind, or respectful of our autonomy. And it's the
biggest reason I don't force my kids to eat anything.


*****

It feels SO yucky to me to even think about, but I'm
thinking logistically here....how does this work? WILL
a child that is unschooled actually allow an adult to
force food into them when they don't want it?

******

No, I don't think any child who is genuinely
unschooled would allow an adult (or anyone else) to
force them to eat what or when they don't want to eat.


Sylvia


Mom to Will (20) Andy (9) and Dan (4.5)






__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

nrskay

Ren;

I'm absolutely against forcing children to finish their plate, well
not the plate, just the food on the plate. My mother made me sit at
the table, even if that meant for an hour, to clean my plate.

Even before I became an unschooler I had very strong feelings about
this. My strong willed, unschooled child wouldn't under any
circumstances allow me to tell her what to eat and when. In fact
since she was very little, say 2ish, if she didn't like what I
prepared for a meal she would tell me no and I would fix her what she
wanted.

At 11, she eats various foods, some healthy and some not so healthy.
But for her food isn't an issue like it is for me. She is average in
weight and height. I'm over weight and have been most of my life.

Kay

Ren Allen

"For us, I would simply tell Zach that I really, truly wanted him to
finish it.
If he would start to get up, I would say "Please, really finish this.
You know
how bad you will feel in the morning. You NEED to finish this.""

And if he refuses?
That's why we're asking Julie, to understand, to get a clearer picture
when you say things like "I make him eat everything."....NOT to point
a finger and say "control freak". I haven't read anything that said this.
I DO think there's been so much focus on his eating, that he may be
trying to fight for some control. Who knows.
It's certainly not normal for people (even extremely thin ones) to
turn white and shake over missing one meal.
I also agree with you that this is an extreme case. I don't see how
on earth you can control a 12 y.o. diet though...he's surely eating
processed foods as soon as your back is turned.

I think it's safe to say that there are extreme physical and emotional
issues that make unschooling philosophies a challenge at times.

If my child was on chemotherapy and refused to eat healthy, I would
probably be concocting some pretty nutritionally loaded shakes and
pushing the child to drink them.
Most children aren't on chemotherapy thankfully.

Of course there are real life issues. I don't think we have to abandon
our philosophies in those cases, I do believe we have to consider the
most respectful way to handle the situation.

Literally EVERY parent that starts down this path after having
arbitrary limits tells us their child is different, it won't work for
their child, they KNOW their child best.

We've proven them wrong time and time again. So do we just quit giving
advice as soon as a parent says "Oh, that won't work for MY child"?
No, of course not.

It's up to individual people to decipher unschooling philosophies and
how to best apply it in their individual situations. Even knowing all
the extending issues that are affecting your child, I would favor less
control. That would still be my advice...obviously it's not my
situation or child so it has nothing to do with me in the end.;)

Ren

camden

> Ok, this whole food discussion has got me thinking now...
> HOW does one force a child to finish their meal?
> HOW does this work?
>
Hi Ren,
Most of the kids here will eat anything. Our 6yr old is totally different.
He is extremely choosey in the foods he eats. We went to a family
get-together and someone tried to get him to eat spagetti w/sauce, now
Coty hasn't eaten anything with tomato based sauce since , well forever!!
This aunt was appauled that I would "take the time" and to make sure he got
his spagetti plain with a little cheese !! I got the "you're going to spoil
him, he's only 6 he shouldnt decide what to eat, your his parent - make him
eat it just like everyone else, etc." I'm betting she wouldn't have liked a
little liver spread on her choco cake, which by the way she was eatting
before her spagetti !!

I would never think of making him eat anything he didn't want. But saying
that he's also the kind of kid who will wake up late & not want to eat
breakfast if everyone else is done. The only catch to this is he will get
sick if he doesnt eat something. So I have to suggest he eats something (
even a handful of cheese cubes will do) before he goes off and plays with
everyone.

I too remember being punished if I didnt clean my plate. I remember sitting
at the table until 11pm because I wouldn't eat cooked spinach (it just
wouldnt go down). I soon became a leader of the "clean your plate club" and
have a backside to prove it. My kids say I'm just squishy :)

I never make them finish their plates. I ask them if they are done & if they
have stuff left I ask them if they want to save it for later. We also keep
in stock quicky foods for Coty (little mini burgers, mac & cheese,etc) so
when we eat chili, he can have what he prefers to eat.

Its a good question ....... how does one FORCE another to eat? I can't
imagine the tears that would flow if I somehow forced him to eat pizza with
sauce.

We have a diabetic son & sometimes getting him to eat right is a challenge.
If he's having a day of I'm not hungry, we make shakes, puddings, etc and do
our best. I'm really lucky with him though, he's a pretty good at eatting &
understanding he needs to stay healthy.

Carol


***************************


> Ok, this whole food discussion has got me thinking now...
> HOW does one force a child to finish their meal?
> HOW does this work?
>

jnjstau

<<And if he refuses?>>

I talk to him until he does. I am a wonderful debater and I know
that I am using my logic abilities to coerce him into eating, not
physically placing the food into his mouth, but pulling some unfair
punches because I know that he doesn't have the reasoning ability
yet to argue on fair ground with me. It would probably look to
outsiders like I am just having a discussion with him, but I am well
aware of what I am doing.

<<he is surely eating processed foods as soon as your back is
turned>>

But that was really never the issue, I have no problem with
processed food per se. The problem I have is him not ALSO eating
nutritionally endowed foods. The way I have been trying to work it
is to "force" him to eat nutritionally laden foods when I can,
knowing that at other times he isn't. I am trying for a balance
where he was completely unable to have any before. Zach is a real
rigid thinker....he goes with plan A forever whether it is working
for him or not...it truly takes an act of congress to get him to
even consider plan B.

Like today, we were out shopping and stopped for lunch. The kids
agreed on the restaurant and Zach ordered whatever he wanted. In
the past, he would do so and then drink soda after soda, almost
gulping them even though we have soda at home, then refuse to eat.
Even taking the food home, it would simply sit in the fridge while
he ate chips or gulped juice.

Today, he ate an enchilada and I asked him to try queso. We live in
San Antonio for gosh sakes and the kid had never tried queso
<grin>. He gave me the "hairy eyeball" but acquiesed (sp?). He ate
the entire bowl without me even mentioning it again and even asked
his sister for hers. He said it never looked good to him before.
On the way home, we stopped at the store and got some gummi worms
(one of his favorites) for this afternoon.

But the original point was that kids wouldn't eat halloween candy
until it made them sick if there were other options available or if
candy hadn't been refused to kids in the past. This was said point
blank by an oldtimer to a newbie as a statement of fact. It was
stating that unschooling is a process where you have a set end
result. I don't think that is the case. Some families are going to
have bumps over food, some are going to have bumps over house
cleaning, some are going to have bumps over learning to read.
Families are different, kids are different and unschooling isn't the
only factor affecting people. There are physical issues, money
issues, temperament issues.

Julie S.


--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:
>
> "For us, I would simply tell Zach that I really, truly wanted him
to
> finish it.
> If he would start to get up, I would say "Please, really finish
this.
> You know
> how bad you will feel in the morning. You NEED to finish this.""
>
> And if he refuses?
> That's why we're asking Julie, to understand, to get a clearer
picture
> when you say things like "I make him eat everything."....NOT to
point
> a finger and say "control freak". I haven't read anything that
said this.
> I DO think there's been so much focus on his eating, that he may be
> trying to fight for some control. Who knows.
> It's certainly not normal for people (even extremely thin ones) to
> turn white and shake over missing one meal.
> I also agree with you that this is an extreme case. I don't see
how
> on earth you can control a 12 y.o. diet though...he's surely eating
> processed foods as soon as your back is turned.
>
> I think it's safe to say that there are extreme physical and
emotional
> issues that make unschooling philosophies a challenge at times.
>
> If my child was on chemotherapy and refused to eat healthy, I would
> probably be concocting some pretty nutritionally loaded shakes and
> pushing the child to drink them.
> Most children aren't on chemotherapy thankfully.
>
> Of course there are real life issues. I don't think we have to
abandon
> our philosophies in those cases, I do believe we have to consider
the
> most respectful way to handle the situation.
>
> Literally EVERY parent that starts down this path after having
> arbitrary limits tells us their child is different, it won't work
for
> their child, they KNOW their child best.
>
> We've proven them wrong time and time again. So do we just quit
giving
> advice as soon as a parent says "Oh, that won't work for MY child"?
> No, of course not.
>
> It's up to individual people to decipher unschooling philosophies
and
> how to best apply it in their individual situations. Even knowing
all
> the extending issues that are affecting your child, I would favor
less
> control. That would still be my advice...obviously it's not my
> situation or child so it has nothing to do with me in the end.;)
>
> Ren
>

averyschmidt

> But the original point was that kids wouldn't eat halloween candy
> until it made them sick if there were other options available or
if
> candy hadn't been refused to kids in the past. This was said
point
> blank by an oldtimer to a newbie as a statement of fact. It was
> stating that unschooling is a process where you have a set end
> result.

Julie,
I disagree with your assessment of my original post. What I said
was this:

"That must have been a LOT of candy consumption, to the exclusion of
anything else, for them to have had such reactions. I can't imagine
why a child would want to eat that much unless a.) it was a newfound
freedom (I know you said you keep candy in the house, but perhaps
it's a different kind from what was in their Halloween stash?) or
b.) there weren't other more nourishing choices available right in
front of them that they love just as much as candy."

I didn't say "kids wouldn't" I said "I can't imagine why." I still
*can't* imagine why, to be honest. The only thing said point blank
by me as a "statement of fact" was my own experience (or lack of, in
this case). And I didn't say, nor did I imply, that "unschooling is
a process where you have a set end result."

Patti

jnjstau

<<I disagree of your assessment of my original post...>>

Then we will have to agree to disagree. You also told me that
you"couldn't see this happening in an unschooling family."

Julie S.

--- In [email protected], "averyschmidt"
<patti.schmidt2@v...> wrote:
>
> > But the original point was that kids wouldn't eat halloween
candy
> > until it made them sick if there were other options available or
> if
> > candy hadn't been refused to kids in the past. This was said
> point
> > blank by an oldtimer to a newbie as a statement of fact. It was
> > stating that unschooling is a process where you have a set end
> > result.
>
> Julie,
> I disagree with your assessment of my original post. What I said
> was this:
>
> "That must have been a LOT of candy consumption, to the exclusion
of
> anything else, for them to have had such reactions. I can't imagine
> why a child would want to eat that much unless a.) it was a
newfound
> freedom (I know you said you keep candy in the house, but perhaps
> it's a different kind from what was in their Halloween stash?) or
> b.) there weren't other more nourishing choices available right in
> front of them that they love just as much as candy."
>
> I didn't say "kids wouldn't" I said "I can't imagine why." I
still
> *can't* imagine why, to be honest. The only thing said point
blank
> by me as a "statement of fact" was my own experience (or lack of,
in
> this case). And I didn't say, nor did I imply, that "unschooling
is
> a process where you have a set end result."
>
> Patti
>

averyschmidt

> <<I disagree of your assessment of my original post...>>
>
> Then we will have to agree to disagree. You also told me that
> you"couldn't see this happening in an unschooling family."

I think you're confusing several of my posts. I didn't say that I
couldn't see a child with food issues in an unschooling family (on the
contrary I said that I was aware that there are exceptions and health
related variables) What I said that I couldn't see happening in an
unschooling family was the scenario of my childhood where I was
forbidden to get up from the table until I had finished eating what I
had been served. I admittedly have a very hard time with that one-
probably owing to my own childhood baggage.

Patti

Deb

--- In [email protected], camden <ccoutlaw@d...>
wrote:
>Our 6yr old is totally different.
> He is extremely choosey in the foods he eats. We went to a family
> get-together and someone tried to get him to eat spagetti w/sauce,
>now
> Coty hasn't eaten anything with tomato based sauce since , well
>forever!!
Hey my DS (7) takes his pasta with just grated parmesan (of course,
he'll also ask for slices of parmesan too!) What I find really
interesting (and satisfying in a way too) is that now, after multi-
years of me telling the waitress no sauce, just parmesan... etc DS
is now specifying what he wants in restaurants. Guess he takes after
me - if a restaurant -has- a food somewhere on the menu, and I want
it, I just rearrange things and make my own meal combinations. In
very few circumstances have they said it could not be done (and if
they say No substitutions right on the menu, I just do something
else and likely skip that as an option for the future). One time I
even taught the waitress how to make what I wanted to drink - they
had all the ingredients after all. I wanted a New York egg cream (no
eggs involved lol) at a Friendly's (low end sit down restaurant
known for its ice cream desserts). Anyhow, what it requires is
mixing a little chocolate syrup and milk or cream into a thick
chocolate milk (only about an inch of milk with a full serving of
chocolate syrup) then filling the glass with ice and seltzer to
create a carbonated chocolate milk basically. They had all the
ingredients so they did it and charged me something between a
regular soda and a shake.
>
> I would never think of making him eat anything he didn't want.
>But saying
> that he's also the kind of kid who will wake up late & not want to
>eat
> breakfast if everyone else is done. The only catch to this is he
>will get
> sick if he doesnt eat something. So I have to suggest he eats
>something (
> even a handful of cheese cubes will do) before he goes off and
>plays with
> everyone.
Neither DH nor DS like to eat first thing. I called home yesterday
around 11 to say hi and they were eating breakfast - they had been
awake for 3 or 4 hours by then. One thing we have done in the past
(and continue although don't need to as much) is discuss what we
observed when DS hadn't eaten and related how we feel when we don't
eat - DS knows I get grumpy and tense and even weak if I haven't
eaten - he's seen it. And he gets easily frustrated and irritable -
he's felt it. So we can remind him "need some protein?" or "how
about (food item) before you go (do something)?"

> I too remember being punished if I didnt clean my plate. I
>remember sitting
> at the table until 11pm because I wouldn't eat cooked spinach (it
>just
> wouldnt go down).
I was lucky - we never had this at our house. If we didn't want what
was cooked, we could make ourselves a sandwich (there was always
PBJ). And as we got older, we'd often offer to cook up something
different for whoever wanted it.
> I never make them finish their plates. I ask them if they are done
>& if they
> have stuff left I ask them if they want to save it for later. We
>also keep
> in stock quicky foods for Coty (little mini burgers, mac &
>cheese,etc) so
> when we eat chili, he can have what he prefers to eat.
DS' favorite discovery this past year is that the microwave has
settings for omelettes and oatmeal so he can do them almost totally
himself!
> Its a good question ....... how does one FORCE another to eat? I
>can't
> imagine the tears that would flow if I somehow forced him to eat
>pizza with
> sauce.
Oddly enough pizza is okay with DS with sauce (and he also loves
DH's veggie chili which has tomato sauce). We've also got a pizza
place near us that does a 4 cheese white pizza that is awesome!

--Deb

Ren Allen

"Families are different, kids are different and unschooling isn't the
only factor affecting people. There are physical issues, money
issues, temperament issues."

I can wholeheartedly agree with this!
And that's where parents have to sift information and apply
philosophies to their unique situations.

Someone just mentioned a diabetic child. None of us would tell you
to freely offer sugar to a diabetic. But there's a real life danger.
I would still encourage the parent to be non-coercive, to dialogue
the very real health threat as much as the child could comprehend
and offer lots of creative, interesting options.

Maybe we need a disclaimer to every post; "this advice applies to
your average, healthy child."

But that's the beauty of discussion. People can clarify situations
and the advice can be adapted.

Ren