Christina R

I was just about to post a comment about the "Madonna is a jerk" post
when I realized I haven't even introduced myself! So, here I go:
My name is Christina, married for 6 years to John and we live in MA.
We have three children: a dd age 4.5, a dd age 2.5 and a ds age 1.
I am consumed with the idea of homeschooling and most interested in
unschooling as a way of life for us.

However, we aren't there yet. My oldest is in a Montessori preschool
right now which she really enjoys and we are relatively happy with
her there. But, I REALLY dislike having her away from us every
afternoon; frankly, I just MISS her and feel like I've given up
something in order to put her in the best preschool I could find (and
afford).

So, here we are with about 6 homeschool books, 10 websites, and a new
homeschool playgroup. My dh is totally supportive but our town has
very few homeschoolers (although I've been told the superintendent is
supportive).

My biggest 'obstacle' is just trying to understand unschooling better
and also wanting to hear from others with very young children. My
oldest is very smart, curious, asks tons of questions; but she also
LOVES TV and I try to limit how much she watches which, I think, is
very 'unschooler' of me. With the little ones still being so
demanding and unable to do very much by themselves, how do I provide
her with a learning environment and 'be there' for her when I'm
trying to also take care of the youngest ones?

I've looked at Danielle's inspiring and wonderful website and first
thought, 'yay, her kids are spaced like mine; I can do this!'. And
then I thought, 'oh my God, she sounds incredibly smart and educated
and resourceful---I am totally intimidated!" lol---Danielle, please
take that as a huge compliment from me! But, for you and others who
did this with young children, I'd love any words that will help me
get my head around this idea. I keep thinking about how I will go
about 'teaching' my oldest when the little ones are taking up so much
of my time: how do I let go of this way of thinking?

Thanks for sticking with this long-winded post! Oh, and my Madonna
post was going to say, "I see a Mommy Dearest-type movie in her
future".

Christina R---Mom to Isabel, Jillian and Dante

jlh44music

> I am consumed with the idea of homeschooling and most interested in
unschooling as a way of life for us.>>>

Welcome Christina! This is a great place for newbies to unschooling!

>My dh is totally supportive but our town has very few homeschoolers
(although I've been told the superintendent is supportive).>>>

I'm in MA too (No Reading - what town are you in?) and there are very
few homeschoolers in my town, mostly younger kids (my dd is 13 and
just finished 6th grade, this is our first year and she's deschooling
big time). Have you checked ahem.info and mhla.org for support
groups near you? I think we're the only unschoolers in my town and
the only homeschoolers above the elementary level, but by joining a
homeschool group, even though many do "school at home" and many
variations and combinations of it, I'm also beginning to find other
unschoolers with teens in nearby towns (and beyond but having one
child who's older, we're willing to travel).

> My biggest 'obstacle' is just trying to understand unschooling
better and also wanting to hear from others with very young
children.>>>

There are families here who have unschooled from the beginning, those
with young kids in situations similar to you and those like me who
pulled a child from school at an older age, so I'm sure you'll get
some input! Keep reading, asking questions.

>Oh, and my Madonna post was going to say, "I see a Mommy Dearest-
type movie in her future".>

LOL!
Jann

[email protected]

>>I keep thinking about how I will go
about 'teaching' my oldest when the little ones are taking up so much
of my time: how do I let go of this way of thinking?>>

The first step is to let go of the idea that you need to "teach" her at all. She's learning all the time. Really. Talk to her, play when you can, include her in your world with the little ones.

What exactly are you thinking she needs to learn right now that won't come up in the course of your everyday lives? At 4 1/2 the schools are doing numbers, letters, colors...I think you can handle that! As the kids get older and you get used to the idea of unschooling, you'll find that the learning grows naturally with the kids.

--
~Mary, unschooling mom to Conor (16) and Casey (11)

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."--

Christina R

you wrote:
> What exactly are you thinking she needs to learn right now that
won't come up in the course of your everyday lives? At 4 1/2 the
schools are doing numbers, letters, colors...
>
> ~Mary, unschooling mom to Conor (16) and Casey (11)
>

LOL, you are RIGHT! I'm totally thinking, "how am I going to get
her to understand algebra" but I'm WAY ahead of myself.

I guess I don't understand how to promote learning
without 'teaching'. For example, you said in schools they are
learning colors at 4 1/2. If I'm unschooling her, how do I help her
learn colors? By asking her what color she is wearing? By saying
loudly, 'wow, isn't this YELLOW banana something else?' She had a
bag of Skittles and was sorting them by color and I asked her what
colors she had and how many of each, but not sure if this
is 'interfering' or just 'interacting'---I think I'm getting caught
up in my underwear, so to speak. To just 'let go' and let her learn
on her own sounds so SCARY to me; has anyone else had to deal with
this?

Thanks, Christina

Danielle Conger

Christina R wrote:

> I've looked at Danielle's inspiring and wonderful website and first
> thought, 'yay, her kids are spaced like mine; I can do this!'. And
> then I thought, 'oh my God, she sounds incredibly smart and educated
> and resourceful---I am totally intimidated!" lol---Danielle, please
> take that as a huge compliment from me! But, for you and others who
> did this with young children, I'd love any words that will help me
> get my head around this idea. I keep thinking about how I will go
> about 'teaching' my oldest when the little ones are taking up so much
> of my time: how do I let go of this way of thinking?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Eeeeek! I'm not supposed to be intimidating (shaking my head, "no, no, no").

I recently did a kind of how-to funshop on my web stuff at the Live and
Learn Conference, and my dh kept laughing and saying that my whole
exigence for being able to do that was, "If *I* can do this, you can
too!" because I know so little about computers and html. ;)

Seriously, I just *love* to learn, about just about anything--from html
to gardening to science to foreign affairs. I think that's all it takes
is a genuine love of learning and curiosity that most people have; it's
just buried a bit deeper for some than for others.

The glory of unschooling is that you live and learn with your kids--ALL
of them. Learning is a by-product of living a rich, interesting life, so
you don't have to worry about how you'll "teach" the oldest or how much
time the little ones are taking. Life and interests intertwine,
absorbing all ages and stages. Sometimes it seems like the youngest ones
learn by pure osmosis because they absorb so much from the interests and
questions of the oldest ones, but then you see the same thing working
the other direction. Once they become available, you may want to order
Ren's conference talk "Unschooling a Tribe." She said so many wonderful
things about what it's like to unschool many children--really valuable.

I spend most of my time at the AlwaysUnschooled list, which I co-own
with Robyn Coburn, and there are lots of people there talking about how
they do this with young children. Read here; read there, but mostly just
start *living* it!



--
~~Danielle
Emily (8), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

Krisula Moyer

Welcome Christina.

I'm sure you will get lots of good information and advice here. Just
hanging out and reading other peoples posts will be helpful to you. My .02
are just about leaving dd in Montessori. There was a beautiful Montessori
near us when my oldest was little. So, I'm going to say to you what I'd say
to the younger me if I could go back in time. The minute your child doesn't
want to go to school one day, let her stay home. Ask her each morning"
Would you like to go to school today? or would you rather stay home with
us?" Honor her wishes. If the school starts giving you a hard time,
weather it yourself. Her desire to be there may look different when it is a
genuine choice of hers. Keep a close eye on how adults treat and talk to
her and be there to advocate for her.

It was a great school as schools go and lovely in many ways but the harm
done was real and if I could go back to start again, I'd have kept my kids
home from the start.

Like I said, just my .02
Best wishes for your journey,

Krisula


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

>>If I'm unschooling her, how do I help her learn colors?>>

The same way you helped her discover and learn new things before she became school age. In our family it just came up in everyday interactions. We'd read books, use crayons and paint, talk and share. I'd point out the pretty yellow daffodils or ask for the purple crayon or use the red paint on my fire engine.

>>To just 'let go' and let her learn
on her own sounds so SCARY to me; has anyone else had to deal with
this?>>

She's not on her own. She's got you, her dad, her grandparents, friends, neighbors, and the whole wide world.



--
~Mary, unschooling mom to Conor (16) and Casey (11)

"The miracle is not to walk on water. The miracle is to walk on the
green earth, dwelling deeply in the present moment and feeling truly
alive."

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/20/2005 4:04:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
christinaref@... writes:

To just 'let go' and let her learn
on her own sounds so SCARY to me; has anyone else had to deal with
this?

Thanks, Christina



~~~~~~~~~~
Of course! But, it's so magical watching them learn. It's like watching a
butterfly emerge from its cocoon and take flight. My daughter is learning colors
on her own. She will soon be 4. She has learned shapes as well. Totally from
being HER. She has learned from her big brother, from TV, from toys... and
on her own choosing and asking a gazillion questions. And, we play games. The
"pick-up" game is a "fun" one since it's never really the same each time. I
have the 2 older ones "race" to pick up 5 toys with wheels, or 3 red toys, or
4 squares. We mix it up. Makes the chore of picking up fun for them.
But, the learning "happens". Just because... :o)

Jenny
Homeschooling in Greenfield, MA
Danny (12-1-99), Kelsey (11-1-01) and Evelyn (5-19-04)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Education is not filling a pail but the lighting of a fire. ~William Butler
Yeats



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donald and Sandra Winn

> I guess I don't understand how to promote learning
> without 'teaching'. For example, you said in
> schools they are
> learning colors at 4 1/2. If I'm unschooling her,
> how do I help her learn colors? By asking her what
color she is wearing? By saying loudly, 'wow, isn't
this YELLOW banana something else?'

The only reason that they "have" to know their colors
at 4 1/2 years old in school is so that they can get
good enough marks to get "passed" to kindergarten.

Do you read books with your 4 1/2 year old? So many
books have colors and names of colors, she'll learn
them as you go through these years naturally. :-) I
can say that with peace because my 7yo dd learned
them that way, before I even knew about unschooling or
started "homeschooling/school at home" with her. My
only concern back then in my naive days was
socialization. :-)

Peace and Joy,
~Sandy
www.homelearningnaturally.blogspot.com




__________________________________
Yahoo! FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.
http://farechase.yahoo.com

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<I guess I don't understand how to promote learning
without 'teaching'. >>>>

By making the cognitive leap yourself that learning is a natural human
drive, that learning is unstoppable. It doesn't need promotion, especially
in these littlies. It is impossible to prevent learning from occurring, but
easy to make the learning something negative such as "I can't", or "I'm not
as smart as the other kids in my class", or something like "I have to keep
my interests secret (because Mom disapproves)".

<<<< For example, you said in schools they are learning colors at 4 1/2. >>>

Without recollecting that particular post, looking at that statement reminds
me of just how arbitrary and silly the school timetables for learning are.
I'm sure Jayn knew all the colors in her life much sooner than that, but nor
was it at all important that she should be able to name them outside of her
needs or enjoyment.

I remember when she was watching a Max and Ruby and Ruby said to Max, "You
have to go to school to learn how to mix colors". Not only is that an
outrageous lie in real life, it was a lie within the context of the show,
since Max had just learnt how to mix colors *from Ruby*. It was a phrase
that Ruby was using as a device to control Max's behavior - she wanted to
exclude him from her art game.

We are freed from needing to bring schoolish agendas and lies into our
lives.

<<<<< If I'm unschooling her, how do I help her
learn colors? By asking her what color she is wearing? By saying
loudly, 'wow, isn't this YELLOW banana something else?' She had a
bag of Skittles and was sorting them by color and I asked her what
colors she had and how many of each, but not sure if this
is 'interfering' or just 'interacting'--->>>>

Didn't you know what color her dress was? Beware of inauthentic speech
instigated by your educational goals or hidden teaching agenda.

I would call the Skittles conversation "quizzing". I define this as asking
questions to which you already know the answer, with the transparent purpose
being to test her knowledge (or lack thereof). Looks like you snuck in some
bonus math quizzing as well! If Jayn were sorting something small like that,
I might support it by asking her if she wanted some containers.

Kids will only put up with so much quizzing before they start wanting to
avoid having conversations with you. Generous children will put up with more
than impatient ones.

Is conversation with you something you want your child to "put up with" or
seek to avoid in the future? Try not to quiz. Really, in your heart, let go
of that need.

Colors come up in real conversations all the time. Colors come up in real
descriptions ("I want the PINK doll Mommy, not the purple one"). Jayn worked
out how to make new colors from painting. She asked what the names of colors
were as they came up in real life. Your dd is already interested in color
differences as shown by her self-instigated sorting game. This is the kind
of ubiquitous and useful real knowledge that you would have to actively and
assiduously avoid if you wanted your child to NOT learn it for some insane
reason.

<<<<< To just 'let go' and let her learn
on her own sounds so SCARY to me; has anyone else had to deal with
this? >>>

Fear is cast out by Trust. Trust is enhanced and facilitated by observation.
Spend time just observing your child. That continues to be the greatest
source reassurance I ever find. Don't do the schoolish thing and look for
the deficits and lacks. Look at what is actually happening. It will be more,
and more wondrous, than you could design.

Robyn L. Coburn



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Pamela Sorooshian

I've told this story before, so sorry for the repeat for those who've
heard it - but a year or so ago, my 14 yo daughter, Rose, was walking
off the soccer field back to the parking lot with a friend. I was
walking behind them and could hear their conversation.

Her friend asked her, "So I still don't get what you do - how do you
LEARN anything if you don't go to school?"

Rose: "Like what?"

Friend: "Well, like science."

Rosie: "Like what kind of science."

Friend: "Well, like formulas and stuff."

Rose: "Formulas for what?"

Friend: "Science formulas like gravity and mass and stuff like that.
I mean, we learn them and have to take tests on them. How do you
learn them if you don't go to school?"

Rose: "I don't know. Tell me one."

Friend: "Well, I we just had a test so right now I don't remember any
more."

Rose: "Well, if you remember any of them, tell them to me, then I'll
know them too. That's one way I learn, I ask people to tell me things
THEY know."

We'd arrived at the parking lot and the friend was clearly not
satisfied with these answers - the conversation continued another
time, according to Rosie, but I wasn't there. The friend apparently
even asked Rosie, "So if you NEVER went to school, how did you learn
ANYTHING, like how did you learn to tie your shoes?" Rosie says she
was surprised by THAT question and asked her friend, "Did you learn
to tie your shoes in school?" The friend looked bewildered and said,
"Yeah, well, I think so, I mean I'm pretty sure." Then the friend
said, "I still don't get how you learn stuff." AGAIN, Rosie said,
"Like what?" Friend: "Like where is Bulgaria?" (Totally out of
nowhere!!) Rosie said, "Well, I'm not really sure - but I'm pretty
sure it is in Europe."

-pam


On Oct 22, 2005, at 11:13 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:

> I remember when she was watching a Max and Ruby and Ruby said to
> Max, "You
> have to go to school to learn how to mix colors". Not only is that an
> outrageous lie in real life, it was a lie within the context of the
> show,
> since Max had just learnt how to mix colors *from Ruby*. It was a
> phrase
> that Ruby was using as a device to control Max's behavior - she
> wanted to
> exclude him from her art game.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Christina R

Thank you for this (and Robyn, your post as well). The part about
the friend, having just taken a test on formulas, but not
remembering any of them, was exactly like me in school. I could
take a test like the best of 'em, but as soon as the test was over,
I'd forget everything I had crammed into my head.

Also, I think Robyn mentioned I need to avoid quizzing my dd. This
is a tough one for me and I know I'll be a work in progress. I
think my younger dd figured me out and now, if asked what color
something is, answers 'blue' to everything, with a sly smile on her
lips. My oldest, if she doesn't want to discuss something, just
puts her hands over her ears. At least they are pretty obvious!
Mama needs to back off!

One question: my oldest (who is 4.5) has been 'playing' with math,
specifically adding and counting. She has been saying things
like '2 plus 2 equals 4'. If she says 2 plus 2 equals 5', do I just
keep my mouth shut, or correct her, or ask her to think about it
some more? She will sometimes ask me if she is right or not with a
math problem. First of all, I am blown away that she is even doing
any of this. I also want to be 'there' for her if she needs me but
do not want to interfere in her exploration and thought.

Thanks again for your comments,
Christina
Mom to Isabel 1/01, Jillian 3/03 and Dante 9/04
--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@e...> wrote:
>
> I've told this story before, so sorry for the repeat for those
who've
> heard it - but a year or so ago, my 14 yo daughter, Rose, was
walking
> off the soccer field back to the parking lot with a friend. I was
> walking behind them and could hear their conversation.
>
> Her friend asked her, "So I still don't get what you do - how do
you
> LEARN anything if you don't go to school?"
>
> Rose: "Like what?"
>
> Friend: "Well, like science."
>
> Rosie: "Like what kind of science."
>
> Friend: "Well, like formulas and stuff."
>
> Rose: "Formulas for what?"
>
> Friend: "Science formulas like gravity and mass and stuff like
that.
> I mean, we learn them and have to take tests on them. How do you
> learn them if you don't go to school?"
>
> Rose: "I don't know. Tell me one."
>
> Friend: "Well, I we just had a test so right now I don't remember
any
> more."
>
> Rose: "Well, if you remember any of them, tell them to me, then
I'll
> know them too. That's one way I learn, I ask people to tell me
things

>
> -pam
>
>
> On Oct 22, 2005, at 11:13 PM, Robyn Coburn wrote:
>
> > I remember when she was watching a Max and Ruby and Ruby said
to
> > Max, "You
> > have to go to school to learn how to mix colors". Not only is
that an
> > outrageous lie in real life, it was a lie within the context of
the
> > show,
> > since Max had just learnt how to mix colors *from Ruby*. It was
a
> > phrase
> > that Ruby was using as a device to control Max's behavior - she
> > wanted to
> > exclude him from her art game.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 10/23/2005 6:32:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
christinaref@... writes:

One question: my oldest (who is 4.5) has been 'playing' with math,
specifically adding and counting. She has been saying things
like '2 plus 2 equals 4'. If she says 2 plus 2 equals 5', do I just
keep my mouth shut, or correct her, or ask her to think about it
some more? She will sometimes ask me if she is right or not with a
math problem. First of all, I am blown away that she is even doing
any of this. I also want to be 'there' for her if she needs me but
do not want to interfere in her exploration and thought.




*************

I usually keep my mouth shut! Most of the incorrect thoughts don't really
matter at this age and much of the time, they correct themselves if there is a
need. If I can see there will be potential for much frustration, I might
ask if they want my help. I try really hard not to get into a position where I
am *right* and they are *wrong*.

We all have incorrect thoughts all the time. You might think your
neighbor's name is Jim but then you find out it is Bob. No big deal, right? You
just replace the new information with the outdated or wrong stuff. Kids' brains
are far more pliable than ours! When they find out they are wrong,
especially if no shame or negativity has been attached to it, they change their
minds.

Leslie in SC





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<< One question: my oldest (who is 4.5) has been 'playing' with math,
specifically adding and counting. She has been saying things
like '2 plus 2 equals 4'. If she says 2 plus 2 equals 5', do I just
keep my mouth shut, or correct her, or ask her to think about it
some more? She will sometimes ask me if she is right or not with a
math problem. First of all, I am blown away that she is even doing
any of this. I also want to be 'there' for her if she needs me but
do not want to interfere in her exploration and thought. >>>>

I can tell the difference in Jayn's voice and tone between what is
essentially her thinking aloud, and her asking me for input. In her case,
using your example, she might say, "2 and 2 are 4 (or 5), right?" and it is
very clear that she wants the answer from me.

Other than her asking, I don't correct her. Sometimes she is playing a kind
of game with herself, stating the wrong answer in a kind of logic think fest
much like how sometimes she will deliberately choose the wrong answer in a
computer game to see what happens. Sometimes, especially when she was the
age your child is, she would simply be forgetting the right word, kinda
thinking "4" but saying "5". She would do that with other types of
vocabulary also, mixing "less" and "more" or "yesterday" and "tomorrow" -
although she was clear on the actual concepts.

Jayn self-corrects in time, often immediately, sometimes by asking. The
important thing is not to make her feel embarrassed about asking for the
correct answer.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Pamela Sorooshian

Say this, to yourself: "Wow - what an amazing child I have - such a
smart little human being who loves to learn and is curious about the
world and is clearly intent on exploring all she can about it. Do I
really think she'll never figure out that 2 plus 2 is 4, not 5?"

If you REALLY think she'll never get that figured out, then by all
means be sure to tell her <G>.

But, sorry - that was sarcasm. You do NOT have to make sure she
learns things like this - they are important and real and will appear
in her life over and over - there is no need for you to do ANYTHING
except live a happy, full life. You do NOT need to either engineer
her learning OR make sure she learns when the opportunity does
present itself. There will always be more opportunities, don't worry
about that. 2 plus 2 will continue to be 4, over and over, in many
situations! What you have to be careful about is damaging the
natural, inherent deeply built-in urge to learn. You can do that,
easily, by jumping in to "teach" when unnecessary and/or unwelcome.
TRUST that natural curiosity will lead her to question, wonder, and
observe and experiment and think for herself. Strew her path with
opportunities to have fun, to discover interesting things, and so on.
But don't think that if you don't TELL her something, that she won't
learn it. Be patient. Time is on your side! <BEG>

-pam

On Oct 23, 2005, at 1:32 PM, Christina R wrote:

>
> One question: my oldest (who is 4.5) has been 'playing' with math,
> specifically adding and counting. She has been saying things
> like '2 plus 2 equals 4'. If she says 2 plus 2 equals 5', do I just
> keep my mouth shut, or correct her, or ask her to think about it
> some more? She will sometimes ask me if she is right or not with a
> math problem. First of all, I am blown away that she is even doing
> any of this. I also want to be 'there' for her if she needs me but
> do not want to interfere in her exploration and thought.



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