Amber Kelley

Thanks for all your great responses. Yes - I'm on several homeschool and unschool lists and I'm hoping to hear from someone in VT regarding state regulations and how to deal with all that. The only reason I'm still giving them 'assignments' is because I'm worried about the repercussions next year if they don't meet whatever 'state standards' they have to. Since I'm new to all this I'm not sure what to expect.

I totally agree that they would not CHOOSE to do 'bookwork'. The 'weekly' outline that I gave them on the 19th is still not done - so I'm being *really* lax about it. I really want to toss it all and let them go. I just need to figure out how to deal with state regs first. The LAST thing I want is to put them in the position of having to go back to ps because I screwed up dealing with the state.

I'm sure there are unschoolers around here and I'm working the resource lists as I get them. I just haven't gotten alot of info yet.

When I said 'semi-engaged' I didn't mean it in a negative way. I meant that I wanted to keep them communicating with me and each other and involved in daily life. We stick pretty close as a family and I don't like the idea of them totally disengaging. I'm sure that's one of those things we will work through over time though. I remember as a teenager when I played video games for hours on end. I still enjoy it - but I worry that we don't leave ourselves open to each other if we are absorbed in a game for a long time. For me it was an escape, and I'm sure it's the same for them, and I understand that's the point your making [regarding time to heal, etc] so it's something I'm open to. I guess it's just that I'm so new to all this and I don't want to make any more mistakes - like I did leaving them in the public school system for 8 years even though I felt compelled to remove them after 2.

I DO feel this *urge* to 'guide' them into 'studying' stuff they are interested in - a la unit studies - I'm fighting that urge - really.

My progression has been this:
The first day of 'homeschool' was full-blown school at home," schedule, gotta get every little thing done today, by the book, verbatim." I didn't have fun at all, they did ok but only because it was new. Day two - my eldest did all his work by noon, the youngest cried from lunch til dinner. Day three - the youngest went on a work strike - I made him sit at the work table all day but he refused to do anything, just sat there and cried - it felt like child abuse. It was about that time that I realized this whole 'school at home' thing was not for us; but I KNOW they will not thrive in the public schools. That's when I started reading a LOT more about this 'unschooing' thing that was popping up here and there in various resources that I've been reading. So you can see - I've only been following this for about a month.

I may not phrase things right but my heart is for my children to learn what they love and pursue it - not to make them miserable. I think I really am in the middle of a paradigm shift (I HATE that term - lol - it's such a 'catch phrase): shifting from "learning" (i.e. educating in a tangible way) to "experiencing life".

Thanks again for being such a great resource and sounding board. I think you will all hear alot from me over the coming months. Please be patient, I'm learning.

Amber




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Donald and Sandra Winn

Amber,

You are not alone, I'm still in a shift too.
Yesterday my sister called and asked if I would scan
and email Brooke's handwriting from when she was 4-5,
so that she could "brag" about her neice. Well, sadly
the information was stored on a computer to which we
lost everything and I know longer have her
handwriting. She had beautiful cursive, textbook
cursive. Well, since not sticking with it for the
past year or so her handwriting is no longer like that
at all. Ashamedly, I admit, I asked Brooke to
handwrite something to Aunt Kim. Needless to say, my
heart sank because she wrote beautiful at age 4-5 and
now, you'd hardly know that she ever wrote cursive. I
was at a loss and it still bothers me. Instead of
improving, she's went downhill and "I AM" having a
problem getting over it. I think that "I AM" having a
problem with pride, because instead of not caring, I
do care. I care about what is thought about me as her
mom and I care about what people think about her
handwriting going downhill. However, I DO NOT WANT TO
FEEL THIS WAY, I know that my attitude about it stinks
and that it NEEDS to be changed.

I should have never asked Brooke to write and she
looked sad when I asked her too, so I told her that
she didn't have to. Also, I said, "I'm sorry Brookey,
it was wrong of me to ask you to do that." She didn't
know my disappointment because I didn't show it.

Anyway, my attitude was wrong, but just wanted you to
know that you are not alone. I'm new to radical
unschooling myself. For awhile, I'm happy and excited
and committed, and then with one foul swoop, I LET
myself get intimidated into thinking it's wrong. I'm
scared that my husband will be pissed off that our
daughter no longer writes neatly and that he will not
let this unschooling continue. He won't beat me or
anything...LOL, but he won't see unschooling as
positive if something was once good but has now gone
down hill. Guess we'll cross that bridge when we come
to it.



Peace and Joy,
~Sandy
www.homelearningnaturally.blogspot.com




__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

Pamela Sorooshian

You live in Vermont so you have to deal with a local school
superintendent and, to be honest, I'd worry about repercussions, too.
They have a LOT of authority over you, more than in almost any other
state.

Which means that a national level email list is not the best place
for information about how to handle your particular state-level
situation. We can talk about unschooling and we might just happen to
offer a few ideas that turn out to be useful to you in meeting your
state requirements, but what you really need is to get in touch with
people in your own state. You could start with the Vermont
Association of Home Educators: <http://www.vermonthomeschool.org/>.

-pam

On Sep 28, 2005, at 4:33 AM, Amber Kelley wrote:

> Thanks for all your great responses. Yes - I'm on several
> homeschool and unschool lists and I'm hoping to hear from someone
> in VT regarding state regulations and how to deal with all that.
> The only reason I'm still giving them 'assignments' is because I'm
> worried about the repercussions next year if they don't meet
> whatever 'state standards' they have to. Since I'm new to all this
> I'm not sure what to expect.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

A 4/5 yo with beautiful lovely cursive writing is like a monkey that
can do tricks. Cute. Not important.

Read Frank Smith's "Book of Learning and Forgetting." Nothing truly
deeply learned is easily forgotten - but lots of what appears to be
learning is really "trick learning" (my term, not his) and is just
superficial and really pretty worthless.

-pam

On Sep 28, 2005, at 8:17 AM, Donald and Sandra Winn wrote:

> She had beautiful cursive, textbook
> cursive. Well, since not sticking with it for the
> past year or so her handwriting is no longer like that
> at all. Ashamedly, I admit, I asked Brooke to
> handwrite something to Aunt Kim. Needless to say, my
> heart sank because she wrote beautiful at age 4-5 and
> now, you'd hardly know that she ever wrote cursive. I
> was at a loss and it still bothers me. Instead of
> improving, she's went downhill and "I AM" having a
> problem getting over it.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

jlh44music

>> Thanks for all your great responses. Yes - I'm on several
homeschool and unschool lists and I'm hoping to hear from someone in
VT regarding state regulations and how to deal with all that. The
only reason I'm still giving them 'assignments' is because I'm
worried about the repercussions next year if they don't meet
whatever 'state standards' they have to. Since I'm new to all this
I'm not sure what to expect. >>>>>>

Check out the site Pam just posted. I agree that you need to get
more support from local unschoolers and figure out what you need to
do to meet the requirements of your state. Once you do, you'll be
able to move forward and figure out how that's going to look in your
house.

BUT, please don't feel that you can't talk about unschooling here!!
I know that for me, I was VERY concerned about how my town was going
to be when I submitted my letter of intent, and until I actually did
it and got my approval letter back, I worried about it alot. In the
meantime, I continued to read, post, etc etc, working on MY way of
thinking about unschooling, learning as much as I could. I only
have one child, so I can imagine it's even more difficult when you
have more than one to try to find the right balance and comfort level.

Have you checked out http://sandradodd.com/unschooling? Lots of
words of wisdom in helping you with your paradigm shift!

>>>I'm sure that's one of those things we will work through over time
though. I remember as a teenager when I played video games for hours
on end. I still enjoy it - but I worry that we don't leave ourselves
open to each other if we are absorbed in a game for a long time. For
me it was an escape, and I'm sure it's the same for them, and I
understand that's the point your making [regarding time to heal, etc]
so it's something I'm open to. I guess it's just that I'm so new to
all this and I don't want to make any more mistakes - like I did
leaving them in the public school system for 8 years even though I
felt compelled to remove them after 2.>>>>>

Try to be patient, not only with them but with yourself! It's going
to take time, and again, you won't be able to really focus on it
until you get the issues regarding your state requirements figured
out (OK, I'm repeating myself here! Sorry!)

> I DO feel this *urge* to 'guide' them into 'studying' stuff they
are interested in - a la unit studies - I'm fighting that urge -
really.>>>>
>>>It was about that time that I realized this whole 'school at home'
thing was not for us; but I KNOW they will not thrive in the public
schools. That's when I started reading a LOT more about
this 'unschooing' thing that was popping up here and there in various
resources that I've been reading. So you can see - I've only been
following this for about a month.>>>>

You're on the right track! Trust your heart, don't give up. It's
only been a month!

> I may not phrase things right but my heart is for my children to
learn what they love and pursue it - not to make them miserable. I
think I really am in the middle of a paradigm shift (I HATE that
term - lol - it's such a 'catch phrase): shifting from "learning"
(i.e. educating in a tangible way) to "experiencing life".>>>>

This is the place to work it all out, there are plenty of people here
who will challenge you, not to harm, but to help you sort out the
confusion in your mind. You need to continue to be open to new
ideas and, sometimes, really radical ways of looking at "education".

> Thanks again for being such a great resource and sounding board. I
think you will all hear alot from me over the coming months. Please
be patient, I'm learning.>>>>

Amber, you're doing just fine! Keep posting those thoughts and
questions but also make sure you read some of the resources listed
ont he links, books etc that I've mentioned before. That's what
helped me truly "get it". Be gentle to yourself!
Jann
(I don't see you on the NewEnglandUnschooling yahoo group - there
might be some from VT there you could connect with. It's a small
group but worth a shot! I post to see if I get a response to anyone!)

Donald and Sandra Winn

Thank you Pamela. I have not read any unschooling
books at all, although, I've been to numerous
websites. I DO want to be carefree about this,it is
an attitude I want to carry all the time, even when
confronted. The "will" is there, just not all the way
there yet.

--- Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
wrote:

> A 4/5 yo with beautiful lovely cursive writing is
> like a monkey that
> can do tricks. Cute. Not important.
>
> Read Frank Smith's "Book of Learning and
> Forgetting." Nothing truly
> deeply learned is easily forgotten - but lots of
> what appears to be
> learning is really "trick learning" (my term, not
> his) and is just
> superficial and really pretty worthless.
>
> -pam
>
> On Sep 28, 2005, at 8:17 AM, Donald and Sandra Winn
> wrote:
>
> > She had beautiful cursive, textbook
> > cursive. Well, since not sticking with it for the
> > past year or so her handwriting is no longer like
> that
> > at all. Ashamedly, I admit, I asked Brooke to
> > handwrite something to Aunt Kim. Needless to say,
> my
> > heart sank because she wrote beautiful at age 4-5
> and
> > now, you'd hardly know that she ever wrote
> cursive. I
> > was at a loss and it still bothers me. Instead of
> > improving, she's went downhill and "I AM" having a
> > problem getting over it.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


Peace and Joy,
~Sandy
www.homelearningnaturally.blogspot.com




__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com

Rod Thomas

I am not trying to be argumentative. This is just my way of testing
this theory of unschooling. That said... example:

I had to learn multiplication tables.
I never forgot them.
I use them them all the time.
How does this fit in?


-------------------------------------
A 4/5 yo with beautiful lovely cursive writing is like a monkey that
can do tricks. Cute. Not important.

Read Frank Smith's "Book of Learning and Forgetting." Nothing truly
deeply learned is easily forgotten - but lots of what appears to be
learning is really "trick learning" (my term, not his) and is just
superficial and really pretty worthless.

-pam

jlh44music

> I am not trying to be argumentative. This is just my way of testing
this theory of unschooling. That said... example:

> I had to learn multiplication tables.
> I never forgot them.
> I use them them all the time.
> How does this fit in?

Rod (? You didn't post your name, not sure who this is!)
That's great that you use them all the time! (really! what do you do?)
My dd, because of her learning style, has had a hard time learning them
in the way the school wanted her to, to be able to spit out the answers
like a machine, and as far as I'm concerned, I don't care if she EVER
has them down cold (I have to stop and think about them sometimes, but
I don't have a use for them often. I like my calculator).

Kids will learn things they NEED when the time presents itself. I IS
really hard to wrap yourself around, I'm still really new to this, but
I'm trusting that this is the best thing for my 13 yo (I can SEE the
benefits of her being out of the public school environment, and she's
learning all the time, it just doesn't look like "traditional school"
and I think that's what a lot of people have a hard time with).
Jann

Pamela Sorooshian

On Sep 28, 2005, at 4:58 PM, Rod Thomas wrote:

> I am not trying to be argumentative. This is just my way of testing
> this theory of unschooling. That said... example:
>
> I had to learn multiplication tables.
> I never forgot them.
> I use them them all the time.
> How does this fit in?

You'd have learned them anyway because they were useful.

Lots and lots and lots of kids learn them well enough to pass a test
(fool the teacher), but don't remember them later. Lots of others
learn them and remember them, but they ALSO remember the discomfort
and misery or boredom and they associate that with mathematics and
steer themselves clear of it in the future, if at al possible. Some
of us learned them relatively painlessly and remember them (because
we used them) and might have more trouble understanding what the
problem is.

We have a country filled with people with severe math anxiety, even
phobia. Most of them "learned" multiplication facts sometime around 8
to 10 years old. Most of them can't use those facts in real life
because they're so math anxious that their brains freeze when faced
with any kind of naturally mathematical situation.

If a child memorizes multiplication facts and can spout them off, I
would consider that ALSO not particularly valuable - any cheap
calculator can do that, and a lot more, and probably faster and more
accurately. Sometimes it is fun to learn them - then fine, I'm not
going to say kids should be PREVENTED from learning them <G>. But I'm
not at all impressed if they do - I'm more impressed by the kid who
points out to me, "If you keep moving halfway to the wall, in theory
you'll never get there, because you are always only moving halfway
there. But, if you TRY it, you'll actually bump into the wall." Now
THAT is some interesting valuable mathematical thinking!


-pam




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