Spanking Christians WAS : parenting question
[email protected]
**I do have to interject, as I've seen reference to this in a number of
posts, Christianity does NOT equal spanking. People of all walks of
life and belief systems spank, beat their wives, kick their dogs, and
whatever horrendous forms of abuse can be dreamed up. I'm not sure
why it's needed to state that the abuser is a Christian. It seems
irrelivant what faith the *abuser* may or may not be.**
It's relevant because there are numerous books, parenting speakers,
homeschooling workshops, and online seminars on the topic, all earnestly proclaiming
the message that it is the solemn duty of Christian parents to spank their kids,
for the salvation of their eternal souls.
It's not hard to find. And it's positively rampant in homeschooling circles.
Deborah in IL
posts, Christianity does NOT equal spanking. People of all walks of
life and belief systems spank, beat their wives, kick their dogs, and
whatever horrendous forms of abuse can be dreamed up. I'm not sure
why it's needed to state that the abuser is a Christian. It seems
irrelivant what faith the *abuser* may or may not be.**
It's relevant because there are numerous books, parenting speakers,
homeschooling workshops, and online seminars on the topic, all earnestly proclaiming
the message that it is the solemn duty of Christian parents to spank their kids,
for the salvation of their eternal souls.
It's not hard to find. And it's positively rampant in homeschooling circles.
Deborah in IL
Christine Becker
It's too bad you think that. I do believe you that there are many
books that do advocate spanking under the guise of "Christianity"
however I do not believe they state or certainly should not state
that
it saves their soul from hell and secondly it should not be
considered
a conclusive look at Christianity as a whole.
The phrase "spare the rod" must be put into context. Yes, it is
regarding discipline however it most certainly has nothing to do with
salvation. Remeber it is being written in a time and to a people who
probably used rods to disipline so we must always consider when and
to
whom these things were first written so we may consider the
context. "Context is key"! But on the subject of spanking, I am a
Christian who does spank but as little as possible. I do not believe
it to be something I must do biblically but I do believe what God is
trying to tell us in that verse is to be parents, to discipline our
children when they need it, thus "training them" to be decent,
productive citizens as well as training them in the ways of God by
sound consistent biblical teaching
books that do advocate spanking under the guise of "Christianity"
however I do not believe they state or certainly should not state
that
it saves their soul from hell and secondly it should not be
considered
a conclusive look at Christianity as a whole.
The phrase "spare the rod" must be put into context. Yes, it is
regarding discipline however it most certainly has nothing to do with
salvation. Remeber it is being written in a time and to a people who
probably used rods to disipline so we must always consider when and
to
whom these things were first written so we may consider the
context. "Context is key"! But on the subject of spanking, I am a
Christian who does spank but as little as possible. I do not believe
it to be something I must do biblically but I do believe what God is
trying to tell us in that verse is to be parents, to discipline our
children when they need it, thus "training them" to be decent,
productive citizens as well as training them in the ways of God by
sound consistent biblical teaching
Daniel MacIntyre
I have a stupid question. Since the biblical passages referred to are
all old testament, how come we don't hear of Jewish spanking
advocates? Are they just flying under the radar, or are they
interpreting the passage differently?
all old testament, how come we don't hear of Jewish spanking
advocates? Are they just flying under the radar, or are they
interpreting the passage differently?
On 8/22/05, Christine Becker <crazymuthr5@...> wrote:
> It's too bad you think that. I do believe you that there are many
> books that do advocate spanking under the guise of "Christianity"
> however I do not believe they state or certainly should not state
> that
> it saves their soul from hell and secondly it should not be
> considered
> a conclusive look at Christianity as a whole.
> The phrase "spare the rod" must be put into context. Yes, it is
> regarding discipline however it most certainly has nothing to do with
> salvation. Remeber it is being written in a time and to a people who
> probably used rods to disipline so we must always consider when and
> to
> whom these things were first written so we may consider the
> context. "Context is key"! But on the subject of spanking, I am a
> Christian who does spank but as little as possible. I do not believe
> it to be something I must do biblically but I do believe what God is
> trying to tell us in that verse is to be parents, to discipline our
> children when they need it, thus "training them" to be decent,
> productive citizens as well as training them in the ways of God by
> sound consistent biblical teaching
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Daniel
(Amy is doing a half marathon for Team in Training
Anyone who wants to help can do so by going to:
http://www.active.com/donate/fundraise/tntgmoAMacint )
Christine Becker
To be perfectly honest, I don't have a solid answer for you. I do not
know any orthodox Jews (orthodox meaning living strickly by the law,
which is what the old testament is, law; the new testament is grace).
I have an opinion and please let it be well noted that this is my
opinion and not fact and I am not proposing it to be so. My opinion
is that Christianity is meant to be evangalistic. That is to say that
Christians who earnestly believe that Christ died for everyones sin,
and belief in Him is the only way to heaven; we can not work our way
there or ever be good enough to earn it, believe that they should
share that with everyone. The different way people go about doing
that is not always right, Christian like or kind, and for that I
apologize but fundamentaly that is what Christians are asked by
Christ to do, share the good news of the Gospel. Jews are not
evangalistic, they do not believe that Christ was the messiah and so
therefore there is no need to bring anyone to their faith. As I said
before, many "Christians" go about "evangalizing" all the wrong ways
and therby give the rest of us a very bad name but in my opinion that
is why you probably hear more about what Christians believe on
different subjects than you do Jewish people.
I would really like to share one thing though while we are on the
subject of spanking children and it's relationship to Christianity
and God. It is also said in the bible, "And you fathers, do not
provoke your children anger..." Eph 6:4 (New Testament) This is the
apostle Pauls' advice to fathers emphasizing patience. In this verse
Jesus describes, just as the heavenly Father, loves unconditionally,
forgives, without strings attached, and gives abundatly, so should
we as earthly fathers (and mothers). If a parent is spanking out of
anger they are provoking their children to anger and that is not
biblical and not what God is asking of in the previously mentioned
scripture, "spare the rod".
--- In [email protected], Daniel MacIntyre
<daniel.macintyre@g...> wrote:
know any orthodox Jews (orthodox meaning living strickly by the law,
which is what the old testament is, law; the new testament is grace).
I have an opinion and please let it be well noted that this is my
opinion and not fact and I am not proposing it to be so. My opinion
is that Christianity is meant to be evangalistic. That is to say that
Christians who earnestly believe that Christ died for everyones sin,
and belief in Him is the only way to heaven; we can not work our way
there or ever be good enough to earn it, believe that they should
share that with everyone. The different way people go about doing
that is not always right, Christian like or kind, and for that I
apologize but fundamentaly that is what Christians are asked by
Christ to do, share the good news of the Gospel. Jews are not
evangalistic, they do not believe that Christ was the messiah and so
therefore there is no need to bring anyone to their faith. As I said
before, many "Christians" go about "evangalizing" all the wrong ways
and therby give the rest of us a very bad name but in my opinion that
is why you probably hear more about what Christians believe on
different subjects than you do Jewish people.
I would really like to share one thing though while we are on the
subject of spanking children and it's relationship to Christianity
and God. It is also said in the bible, "And you fathers, do not
provoke your children anger..." Eph 6:4 (New Testament) This is the
apostle Pauls' advice to fathers emphasizing patience. In this verse
Jesus describes, just as the heavenly Father, loves unconditionally,
forgives, without strings attached, and gives abundatly, so should
we as earthly fathers (and mothers). If a parent is spanking out of
anger they are provoking their children to anger and that is not
biblical and not what God is asking of in the previously mentioned
scripture, "spare the rod".
--- In [email protected], Daniel MacIntyre
<daniel.macintyre@g...> wrote:
> I have a stupid question. Since the biblical passages referred toare
> all old testament, how come we don't hear of Jewish spankingwith
> advocates? Are they just flying under the radar, or are they
> interpreting the passage differently?
>
> On 8/22/05, Christine Becker <crazymuthr5@k...> wrote:
> > It's too bad you think that. I do believe you that there are many
> > books that do advocate spanking under the guise of "Christianity"
> > however I do not believe they state or certainly should not state
> > that
> > it saves their soul from hell and secondly it should not be
> > considered
> > a conclusive look at Christianity as a whole.
> > The phrase "spare the rod" must be put into context. Yes, it is
> > regarding discipline however it most certainly has nothing to do
> > salvation. Remeber it is being written in a time and to a peoplewho
> > probably used rods to disipline so we must always consider whenand
> > tobelieve
> > whom these things were first written so we may consider the
> > context. "Context is key"! But on the subject of spanking, I am a
> > Christian who does spank but as little as possible. I do not
> > it to be something I must do biblically but I do believe what Godis
> > trying to tell us in that verse is to be parents, to disciplineour
> > children when they need it, thus "training them" to be decent,
> > productive citizens as well as training them in the ways of God by
> > sound consistent biblical teaching
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Daniel
> (Amy is doing a half marathon for Team in Training
> Anyone who wants to help can do so by going to:
> http://www.active.com/donate/fundraise/tntgmoAMacint )
Deb Lewis
***I have a stupid question. Since the biblical passages referred to are
all old testament, how come we don't hear of Jewish spanking
advocates? Are they just flying under the radar, or are they
interpreting the passage differently?***
Jewish parents can spank their kids, but most religious parents I know
don't spank and are counseled not to.
It's forbidden to spank a grown child, a child thirteen or older, and if
your child is younger than that but as mature as a thirteen year old he
must not be hit. Parents are required to consider the child's nature,
whether he's likely to hit back, whether a spanking would seriously wound
his dignity and therefor not be a useful tool of discipline. A parent
who hits a child who then hits back is a stumbling block to that child.
Effectively the parent has *caused* the child to stumble morally and that
is morally unacceptable behavior on the parents part.
A parent is also forbidden to be overly demanding of a child. The idea
is not to make the respect due a parent a "burdensome yoke" to a child
because in doing so a parent will cause a child to stumble. ( in not
giving his parents their due respect)
If the child is not behaving well, the parent is urged to consider
whether he/she is parenting well. So parents are urged to be very
mindful and because of this I think spanking is rare, especially now as
society as a whole is questioning the ethics of spanking.
Deb Lewis
all old testament, how come we don't hear of Jewish spanking
advocates? Are they just flying under the radar, or are they
interpreting the passage differently?***
Jewish parents can spank their kids, but most religious parents I know
don't spank and are counseled not to.
It's forbidden to spank a grown child, a child thirteen or older, and if
your child is younger than that but as mature as a thirteen year old he
must not be hit. Parents are required to consider the child's nature,
whether he's likely to hit back, whether a spanking would seriously wound
his dignity and therefor not be a useful tool of discipline. A parent
who hits a child who then hits back is a stumbling block to that child.
Effectively the parent has *caused* the child to stumble morally and that
is morally unacceptable behavior on the parents part.
A parent is also forbidden to be overly demanding of a child. The idea
is not to make the respect due a parent a "burdensome yoke" to a child
because in doing so a parent will cause a child to stumble. ( in not
giving his parents their due respect)
If the child is not behaving well, the parent is urged to consider
whether he/she is parenting well. So parents are urged to be very
mindful and because of this I think spanking is rare, especially now as
society as a whole is questioning the ethics of spanking.
Deb Lewis
christine becker
Deb,
I agree! I am interested in reading the book, "The way they learn" by Cindy Tobias. I am always trying to be a better mother! Ever read it? I don't think I've ever said I was always right and if I have, it's probably come back to bite me in the butt! :)
I agree! I am interested in reading the book, "The way they learn" by Cindy Tobias. I am always trying to be a better mother! Ever read it? I don't think I've ever said I was always right and if I have, it's probably come back to bite me in the butt! :)
----- Original Message -----
From: Deb Lewis
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 2:34 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Spanking Christians WAS : parenting question
***I have a stupid question. Since the biblical passages referred to are
all old testament, how come we don't hear of Jewish spanking
advocates? Are they just flying under the radar, or are they
interpreting the passage differently?***
Jewish parents can spank their kids, but most religious parents I know
don't spank and are counseled not to.
It's forbidden to spank a grown child, a child thirteen or older, and if
your child is younger than that but as mature as a thirteen year old he
must not be hit. Parents are required to consider the child's nature,
whether he's likely to hit back, whether a spanking would seriously wound
his dignity and therefor not be a useful tool of discipline. A parent
who hits a child who then hits back is a stumbling block to that child.
Effectively the parent has *caused* the child to stumble morally and that
is morally unacceptable behavior on the parents part.
A parent is also forbidden to be overly demanding of a child. The idea
is not to make the respect due a parent a "burdensome yoke" to a child
because in doing so a parent will cause a child to stumble. ( in not
giving his parents their due respect)
If the child is not behaving well, the parent is urged to consider
whether he/she is parenting well. So parents are urged to be very
mindful and because of this I think spanking is rare, especially now as
society as a whole is questioning the ethics of spanking.
Deb Lewis
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rodney and Rebecca Atherton
Speaking of "rods" I'm married to one. :)
I've been a strong supporter of BOTH sides of this issue. Of course, as a
child, I opposed spanking. When I had my first child I thought I should
spank, it's all I knew. I sat through education classes thinking my
professors were just ignorant as they talked about 'alternatives to
spanking.' But, after I had my other children spanking never was something
that I had to use. My daughter, for example, doesn't even like to know that
I am upset with her - it breaks her heart. Can you imagine how she would
react to a spanking? All children are different, I know. But, looking back
at WHY I spanked my son, it was usually for things he eventually outgrew.
That's very very sad to me as I look back, but many of his "discipline"
problems were really just because he was not mature.
I've read that God uses a "rod of reproof" or "rod of discipline" with us?
But, I've never been physically hit.
I think of a shepherd's rod or staff, did the shepherd ever beat the sheep?
I picture them guiding and not striking or "striping." I would also like to
know the exact context and the original Hebrew words to get more insight
into this scripture that is quoted as a reason to spank. I am sure that if
you studied it more and in context, it wouldn't be properly used to support
spanking of small children. Children are children - how many times do they
act the way they act because they are tired - frustrated? You have to ask
if the child is acting out because of a discipline problem or are they
acting out because of their immaturity? And saying, "NO" is not bad.
I hope no one ever makes it common place to use the bible as an excuse to do
violence - using the bible to back up violent acts? Would that make those
Christians "Osama Christians?"
I like the quote, "Preach the gospel at all times, use words when
necessary."
Rebecca
Homeschool Victoria <http://www.homeschoolvictoriatx.com/>
Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to
solve. -Roger Lewin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I've been a strong supporter of BOTH sides of this issue. Of course, as a
child, I opposed spanking. When I had my first child I thought I should
spank, it's all I knew. I sat through education classes thinking my
professors were just ignorant as they talked about 'alternatives to
spanking.' But, after I had my other children spanking never was something
that I had to use. My daughter, for example, doesn't even like to know that
I am upset with her - it breaks her heart. Can you imagine how she would
react to a spanking? All children are different, I know. But, looking back
at WHY I spanked my son, it was usually for things he eventually outgrew.
That's very very sad to me as I look back, but many of his "discipline"
problems were really just because he was not mature.
I've read that God uses a "rod of reproof" or "rod of discipline" with us?
But, I've never been physically hit.
I think of a shepherd's rod or staff, did the shepherd ever beat the sheep?
I picture them guiding and not striking or "striping." I would also like to
know the exact context and the original Hebrew words to get more insight
into this scripture that is quoted as a reason to spank. I am sure that if
you studied it more and in context, it wouldn't be properly used to support
spanking of small children. Children are children - how many times do they
act the way they act because they are tired - frustrated? You have to ask
if the child is acting out because of a discipline problem or are they
acting out because of their immaturity? And saying, "NO" is not bad.
I hope no one ever makes it common place to use the bible as an excuse to do
violence - using the bible to back up violent acts? Would that make those
Christians "Osama Christians?"
I like the quote, "Preach the gospel at all times, use words when
necessary."
Rebecca
Homeschool Victoria <http://www.homeschoolvictoriatx.com/>
Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to
solve. -Roger Lewin
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 23, 2005, at 3:34 PM, Deb Lewis wrote:
Muslim and Southern Baptist) were asked "According to your religious
tradition, under what circumstances can a parent strike a child? How
far can a parent go when correcting a child's behavior?"
http://www.corpun.com/usd00012.htm
In summary (though the whole article isn't that long and is very
enlightening :-):
The Presbyterian minister says: "'He who spares his rod hates his
son" was never meant as an endorsement of corporal punishment.' ...
Consistent, predictable, non-violent discipline is what children need
-- not spankings."
The rabbi (? or some Jewish learned person) basically says Corporal
punish can be part of discipline but ... and points to verses that
offer better options.
The Buddhist priest: "I can only speak from the perspective of a
simple Buddhist priest. Working over the years with my own children,
students, prisoners, and my fellow human beings, I have learned that
any form of punishment, be it corporal or psychological, is
counterproductive. It is uncivilized and serves no purpose other than
to perpetuate oppression."
(In fact most of his response fits into the philosophy of unschooling
and parenting :-)
Th Hindu says: "Corporal punishment is violence, and it is not
sanctioned by Hindu tradition or scriptures. Spanking teaches
children that violence is acceptable."
(His response is even more in keeping with unschooling and parenting :-)
The Muslim says: "Islam teaches that children are a gift from God to
parents. Our faith teaches parents to take good care of children and
to show patience toward them." (Though he says after a list of much
better ideas a light spanking is "permitted to protect a child from a
dangerous situation," and how to do it appropriately.)
The Southern Baptist says: "According to my religious conviction, not
tradition, I believe that spanking is appropriate only when a child
(typically from 2 to 12 years of age) defies parental authority. In
this case, the parent is biblically authorized and mandated to spank
the child." (Though he then goes onto say use other ways first and
how to spank appropriately.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Jewish parents can spank their kids, but most religious parents I know6 different religious leaders (Presbyterian, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu,
> don't spank and are counseled not to.
Muslim and Southern Baptist) were asked "According to your religious
tradition, under what circumstances can a parent strike a child? How
far can a parent go when correcting a child's behavior?"
http://www.corpun.com/usd00012.htm
In summary (though the whole article isn't that long and is very
enlightening :-):
The Presbyterian minister says: "'He who spares his rod hates his
son" was never meant as an endorsement of corporal punishment.' ...
Consistent, predictable, non-violent discipline is what children need
-- not spankings."
The rabbi (? or some Jewish learned person) basically says Corporal
punish can be part of discipline but ... and points to verses that
offer better options.
The Buddhist priest: "I can only speak from the perspective of a
simple Buddhist priest. Working over the years with my own children,
students, prisoners, and my fellow human beings, I have learned that
any form of punishment, be it corporal or psychological, is
counterproductive. It is uncivilized and serves no purpose other than
to perpetuate oppression."
(In fact most of his response fits into the philosophy of unschooling
and parenting :-)
Th Hindu says: "Corporal punishment is violence, and it is not
sanctioned by Hindu tradition or scriptures. Spanking teaches
children that violence is acceptable."
(His response is even more in keeping with unschooling and parenting :-)
The Muslim says: "Islam teaches that children are a gift from God to
parents. Our faith teaches parents to take good care of children and
to show patience toward them." (Though he says after a list of much
better ideas a light spanking is "permitted to protect a child from a
dangerous situation," and how to do it appropriately.)
The Southern Baptist says: "According to my religious conviction, not
tradition, I believe that spanking is appropriate only when a child
(typically from 2 to 12 years of age) defies parental authority. In
this case, the parent is biblically authorized and mandated to spank
the child." (Though he then goes onto say use other ways first and
how to spank appropriately.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jlh44music
> I agree! I am interested in reading the book, "The way they learn" byCindy Tobias.>>>
She's written a few, they're part of my long list of books read on my
journey to unschooling!
Jann
Deb Lewis
***Deb, I agree! ***
Not sure what you're agreeing with. I wasn't stating my opinion, I was
answering a question.
I am in no way a proponent or defender of spanking and I think it should
be illegal.
Deb Lewis
Not sure what you're agreeing with. I wasn't stating my opinion, I was
answering a question.
I am in no way a proponent or defender of spanking and I think it should
be illegal.
Deb Lewis