intro. LONG
Ren Allen
Hi Sherri-Lee and welcome!
I think you have a lot of good questions and I don't have time to
address them all right now. We've got overnight company coming and I
need to make my home semi-safe at least.:)
One thing I wanted to say, is that you can be an unschooler and
still enforce bedtimes, food controls etc.... It's not about
saying "you aren't an unschooler if you don't let your kids eat
sugar". What I HAVE found to be true, is that unschooling unfolds
best in an atmosphere of complete trust and respect. And controlling
another human beings choices is just not truly
respectful....although I think your children won't grow up to feel
anything but loved and cherished if you continue as you are at the
present moment.
The thing about unschooling, is once we begin to see that our
children can make choices about what/when to learn, we MUST question
all the other controls that are taken for granted. You've already
started questioning a lot of issues, so I'm sure you can see how
that unschooling mindset begins to affect your entire life and make
you question everything about parenting!
If you think about it from an adult point of view, what if you lived
with family that would not let you eat a vegetarian diet (if you
wanted to) or kept other foods from you that THEY deemed "bad".
The only thing it really affects is the relationship between the
controller and the controllee. It doesn't make you want the food
item any less.
I really, really believe that sugar or other "junk" substances are
much healthier for a person than having another human being control
them. I think guilty feelings associated with food are much more
harmful than sugar. And this is coming from a certified health-
freak, so I feel I have a right to defend children's choices on this
subject.:)
I don't eat ANY sugar right now. Not honey, not fruit, not any sugar
of any kind. I can't eat carbs, I eat mostly protein and
vegetables...it's HARD. So should my restrictive diet be forced upon
others? I've been semi-vegetarian for 10 years, should my children
not be allowed to eat meat because I've decided it's not healthy?
Every human being should be able to choose the diet that they feel
comfortable with. Our children will choose, regardless of whether we
control their choices or not (it's called sneaking). I'd rather have
the kind of relationship that allows for free exploration and
dialogue, rather than my children feeling they need to hide their
Snickers bar from me. yk?
I'm heavy into alternative medicine/therapy and herbal healing, so
my children do learn about these things in the natural course of
sharing our lives. But I strongly believe in their right to choose.
"I am around, near by doing other
things though so we are not removed from each other. I see it as an
opportunity
for me to do some "me" things. One question I have about TV is, do
you wait for
them to suggest watching or to do it or do you suggest it sometimes?
I find that
we have used TV for specific things, like when she is hungry and
melting down or
needs to calm down after getting WAY riled up with certain friends or
wrestling.. or to let us watch the hockey playoffs and find that I
suggest it
then."
The only reason I advise people to watch WITH their children, is
when the parent is struggling with allowing tv viewing and isn't
connected to the child about what they're viewing. I certainly don't
enjoy all the programs my children watch, but I am close by (like
you mentioned) and available. I also enjoy getting some cleaning or
art/writing done when they are happily absorbed in a
program....that's a great way to meet everyone's needs! And sure I
suggest tv sometimes, when I think it's a good tool for them to cope
with whatever is happening at the moment...just as you described.
Unschooling doesn't mean the parents don't suggest things, or offer
or just DO things that sound fun. It's simply honoring their choices
if those choices are different than our own, or they want something
different than what we offer.
I try to equate it to living with a roommate (though that's not
necessarily a good analogy, because we obviously have a totally
different relationship with our children) and how I would treat
them. A roommate my have a very different diet than my own, totally
different tv viewing habits and a far different level of comfort
with cleanliness. I wouldn't force myself upon another adult (unless
they were disregarding my personal boundaries) or try to control
their choices....so I won't do that with my children either.
Anyway, lots of good discussion potential from all your
questions...I'm sure others will be along to answer soon.
Enjoy the unschooling journey!
Ren
I think you have a lot of good questions and I don't have time to
address them all right now. We've got overnight company coming and I
need to make my home semi-safe at least.:)
One thing I wanted to say, is that you can be an unschooler and
still enforce bedtimes, food controls etc.... It's not about
saying "you aren't an unschooler if you don't let your kids eat
sugar". What I HAVE found to be true, is that unschooling unfolds
best in an atmosphere of complete trust and respect. And controlling
another human beings choices is just not truly
respectful....although I think your children won't grow up to feel
anything but loved and cherished if you continue as you are at the
present moment.
The thing about unschooling, is once we begin to see that our
children can make choices about what/when to learn, we MUST question
all the other controls that are taken for granted. You've already
started questioning a lot of issues, so I'm sure you can see how
that unschooling mindset begins to affect your entire life and make
you question everything about parenting!
If you think about it from an adult point of view, what if you lived
with family that would not let you eat a vegetarian diet (if you
wanted to) or kept other foods from you that THEY deemed "bad".
The only thing it really affects is the relationship between the
controller and the controllee. It doesn't make you want the food
item any less.
I really, really believe that sugar or other "junk" substances are
much healthier for a person than having another human being control
them. I think guilty feelings associated with food are much more
harmful than sugar. And this is coming from a certified health-
freak, so I feel I have a right to defend children's choices on this
subject.:)
I don't eat ANY sugar right now. Not honey, not fruit, not any sugar
of any kind. I can't eat carbs, I eat mostly protein and
vegetables...it's HARD. So should my restrictive diet be forced upon
others? I've been semi-vegetarian for 10 years, should my children
not be allowed to eat meat because I've decided it's not healthy?
Every human being should be able to choose the diet that they feel
comfortable with. Our children will choose, regardless of whether we
control their choices or not (it's called sneaking). I'd rather have
the kind of relationship that allows for free exploration and
dialogue, rather than my children feeling they need to hide their
Snickers bar from me. yk?
I'm heavy into alternative medicine/therapy and herbal healing, so
my children do learn about these things in the natural course of
sharing our lives. But I strongly believe in their right to choose.
"I am around, near by doing other
things though so we are not removed from each other. I see it as an
opportunity
for me to do some "me" things. One question I have about TV is, do
you wait for
them to suggest watching or to do it or do you suggest it sometimes?
I find that
we have used TV for specific things, like when she is hungry and
melting down or
needs to calm down after getting WAY riled up with certain friends or
wrestling.. or to let us watch the hockey playoffs and find that I
suggest it
then."
The only reason I advise people to watch WITH their children, is
when the parent is struggling with allowing tv viewing and isn't
connected to the child about what they're viewing. I certainly don't
enjoy all the programs my children watch, but I am close by (like
you mentioned) and available. I also enjoy getting some cleaning or
art/writing done when they are happily absorbed in a
program....that's a great way to meet everyone's needs! And sure I
suggest tv sometimes, when I think it's a good tool for them to cope
with whatever is happening at the moment...just as you described.
Unschooling doesn't mean the parents don't suggest things, or offer
or just DO things that sound fun. It's simply honoring their choices
if those choices are different than our own, or they want something
different than what we offer.
I try to equate it to living with a roommate (though that's not
necessarily a good analogy, because we obviously have a totally
different relationship with our children) and how I would treat
them. A roommate my have a very different diet than my own, totally
different tv viewing habits and a far different level of comfort
with cleanliness. I wouldn't force myself upon another adult (unless
they were disregarding my personal boundaries) or try to control
their choices....so I won't do that with my children either.
Anyway, lots of good discussion potential from all your
questions...I'm sure others will be along to answer soon.
Enjoy the unschooling journey!
Ren
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Ren,
Thanks for the reply,
Hi Sherri-Lee and welcome!
One thing I wanted to say, is that you can be an unschooler and
still enforce bedtimes, food controls etc.... It's not about
saying "you aren't an unschooler if you don't let your kids eat
sugar". What I HAVE found to be true, is that unschooling unfolds
best in an atmosphere of complete trust and respect. And controlling
another human beings choices is just not truly
respectful....although I think your children won't grow up to feel
anything but loved and cherished if you continue as you are at the
present moment.
The thing about unschooling, is once we begin to see that our
children can make choices about what/when to learn, we MUST question
all the other controls that are taken for granted. You've already
started questioning a lot of issues, so I'm sure you can see how
that unschooling mindset begins to affect your entire life and make
you question everything about parenting!
I can see that and thank you for stating that. On so many other lists I am on, whether it is about unschooling or not, there is often the attitude, that if you don't do it all then you don't "qualify" for the title. Luckily, I long ago let go of my need for anyone else to see me the way I do.
If you think about it from an adult point of view, what if you lived
with family that would not let you eat a vegetarian diet (if you
wanted to) or kept other foods from you that THEY deemed "bad".
The only thing it really affects is the relationship between the
controller and the controllee. It doesn't make you want the food
item any less.
This is a good perspective and I hadn't thought of it this way. I am a partial vegy, meaning I eat chicken, turkey and fish, but no red meat. My dh is a carnivore. He always has salami in the house. I personally hate it, but when my dd said she wanted to try it I didn't stand in her way and now her and daddy enjoy sharing their afternoon snack of salami (ICK!). For us, it isn't a matter of "not letting" her have any of the foods she is interested in, but limiting how much and working with her to teach her about the value of those foods. A perfect example is McD's. she does not know what this place is and she will not learn from us. Other kids ask for it or recognise the arches and when they say something my dd thinks they are talking about the farmer!:) I love that. We don't eat it, so I am sure not going to take her to it to introduce it to her just so she can have the opportunity to self regulate herself about intake.
I really, really believe that sugar or other "junk" substances are
much healthier for a person than having another human being control
them. I think guilty feelings associated with food are much more
harmful than sugar. And this is coming from a certified health-
freak, so I feel I have a right to defend children's choices on this
subject.:)
I really really believe that I am educating my daughter about things not controlling her the way it is presented here. I see the damage that sugar does to people's lives daily in my business and although I do not want to end up encouraging her to binge when she is away from us, I want her to know WHY we limit that kind of food. It is not arbitrary. The other day she asked for a fruit bar, I said, we are just about to go for lunch, do you want to eat your lunch first and save the bar for after or the bar first and eat lunch later. She picked having lunch first and never did get around to the bar. I didn't control her then. But she made the choice because of the talking and education we have offered her.
I don't eat ANY sugar right now. Not honey, not fruit, not any sugar
of any kind. I can't eat carbs, I eat mostly protein and
vegetables...it's HARD. So should my restrictive diet be forced upon
others? I've been semi-vegetarian for 10 years, should my children
not be allowed to eat meat because I've decided it's not healthy?
That kind of a diet is hard. I assume it is for health reasons. The only reason why others would eat this way would be because they had the same health concerns (or you did for them) or because they chose to to support you. When I was on my food elimination diet to recover from FM and CFS my bf at the time totally changed his diet to be the same as mine in support of me. It made it so much easier to stick with it and I cared for him more for it.
Every human being should be able to choose the diet that they feel
comfortable with. Our children will choose, regardless of whether we
control their choices or not (it's called sneaking). I'd rather have
the kind of relationship that allows for free exploration and
dialogue, rather than my children feeling they need to hide their
Snickers bar from me. yk?
Me too.
Unschooling doesn't mean the parents don't suggest things, or offer
or just DO things that sound fun. It's simply honoring their choices
if those choices are different than our own, or they want something
different than what we offer.
I like this idea in theory. Still not convinced it can be totally achieved for us at least. This is something else that comes up for me reading the various threads is the respect issue. Respecting the child is important of course but at the cost of what? Lets say the parents want to go do something on the weekend, shop for materials for a home project they are working on (currently going on in my home) and the child does not want to go out. Should the parents not be able to go do what they want to because of the child's wishes? How do you manage to respect everyone's wishes when they are so completely opposite? It feels like sometimes respecting the child happens at the expense of the parent and although I think the parent can do this as the adult and be ok with it sometimes, resentment comes when you give up of yourself too much to meet others needs. And isn't the child learning that the world revolves around them and that they make the plans for everyone in the house? What about compromise and working together? Am I making sense?
I try to equate it to living with a roommate (though that's not
necessarily a good analogy, because we obviously have a totally
different relationship with our children) and how I would treat
them. A roommate my have a very different diet than my own, totally
different tv viewing habits and a far different level of comfort
with cleanliness. I wouldn't force myself upon another adult (unless
they were disregarding my personal boundaries) or try to control
their choices....so I won't do that with my children either.
I really don't agree with this. I don't live with roommates, I live with my family. I have had both and it is totally different living with a family than a roommate. I was not the least bit bothered if my room mate ate Mc'D every day and stayed out all night and slept most of the day. As long as they had the rent and kept things tidy and didn't put their moods on me fine. But I also had no obligation to them either.. I do to my family. It is a totally different thing in my opinion.
Enjoy the unschooling journey!
Ren
Thanks, so far life is more peaceful around here. Once I started asking myself "why am I saying no" and stopped saying no to the trivial things and gave up the need to decide on those things, she doesn't resist the really big things I have to say no on as much. Less fighting, less complaining, less whining... all is good so far. And more peace in me, less judgment of my decisions, less feeling like I am lacking and more acceptance of what is... also all good.
Thanks for the welcome,
Sherri-Lee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thanks for the reply,
Hi Sherri-Lee and welcome!
One thing I wanted to say, is that you can be an unschooler and
still enforce bedtimes, food controls etc.... It's not about
saying "you aren't an unschooler if you don't let your kids eat
sugar". What I HAVE found to be true, is that unschooling unfolds
best in an atmosphere of complete trust and respect. And controlling
another human beings choices is just not truly
respectful....although I think your children won't grow up to feel
anything but loved and cherished if you continue as you are at the
present moment.
The thing about unschooling, is once we begin to see that our
children can make choices about what/when to learn, we MUST question
all the other controls that are taken for granted. You've already
started questioning a lot of issues, so I'm sure you can see how
that unschooling mindset begins to affect your entire life and make
you question everything about parenting!
I can see that and thank you for stating that. On so many other lists I am on, whether it is about unschooling or not, there is often the attitude, that if you don't do it all then you don't "qualify" for the title. Luckily, I long ago let go of my need for anyone else to see me the way I do.
If you think about it from an adult point of view, what if you lived
with family that would not let you eat a vegetarian diet (if you
wanted to) or kept other foods from you that THEY deemed "bad".
The only thing it really affects is the relationship between the
controller and the controllee. It doesn't make you want the food
item any less.
This is a good perspective and I hadn't thought of it this way. I am a partial vegy, meaning I eat chicken, turkey and fish, but no red meat. My dh is a carnivore. He always has salami in the house. I personally hate it, but when my dd said she wanted to try it I didn't stand in her way and now her and daddy enjoy sharing their afternoon snack of salami (ICK!). For us, it isn't a matter of "not letting" her have any of the foods she is interested in, but limiting how much and working with her to teach her about the value of those foods. A perfect example is McD's. she does not know what this place is and she will not learn from us. Other kids ask for it or recognise the arches and when they say something my dd thinks they are talking about the farmer!:) I love that. We don't eat it, so I am sure not going to take her to it to introduce it to her just so she can have the opportunity to self regulate herself about intake.
I really, really believe that sugar or other "junk" substances are
much healthier for a person than having another human being control
them. I think guilty feelings associated with food are much more
harmful than sugar. And this is coming from a certified health-
freak, so I feel I have a right to defend children's choices on this
subject.:)
I really really believe that I am educating my daughter about things not controlling her the way it is presented here. I see the damage that sugar does to people's lives daily in my business and although I do not want to end up encouraging her to binge when she is away from us, I want her to know WHY we limit that kind of food. It is not arbitrary. The other day she asked for a fruit bar, I said, we are just about to go for lunch, do you want to eat your lunch first and save the bar for after or the bar first and eat lunch later. She picked having lunch first and never did get around to the bar. I didn't control her then. But she made the choice because of the talking and education we have offered her.
I don't eat ANY sugar right now. Not honey, not fruit, not any sugar
of any kind. I can't eat carbs, I eat mostly protein and
vegetables...it's HARD. So should my restrictive diet be forced upon
others? I've been semi-vegetarian for 10 years, should my children
not be allowed to eat meat because I've decided it's not healthy?
That kind of a diet is hard. I assume it is for health reasons. The only reason why others would eat this way would be because they had the same health concerns (or you did for them) or because they chose to to support you. When I was on my food elimination diet to recover from FM and CFS my bf at the time totally changed his diet to be the same as mine in support of me. It made it so much easier to stick with it and I cared for him more for it.
Every human being should be able to choose the diet that they feel
comfortable with. Our children will choose, regardless of whether we
control their choices or not (it's called sneaking). I'd rather have
the kind of relationship that allows for free exploration and
dialogue, rather than my children feeling they need to hide their
Snickers bar from me. yk?
Me too.
Unschooling doesn't mean the parents don't suggest things, or offer
or just DO things that sound fun. It's simply honoring their choices
if those choices are different than our own, or they want something
different than what we offer.
I like this idea in theory. Still not convinced it can be totally achieved for us at least. This is something else that comes up for me reading the various threads is the respect issue. Respecting the child is important of course but at the cost of what? Lets say the parents want to go do something on the weekend, shop for materials for a home project they are working on (currently going on in my home) and the child does not want to go out. Should the parents not be able to go do what they want to because of the child's wishes? How do you manage to respect everyone's wishes when they are so completely opposite? It feels like sometimes respecting the child happens at the expense of the parent and although I think the parent can do this as the adult and be ok with it sometimes, resentment comes when you give up of yourself too much to meet others needs. And isn't the child learning that the world revolves around them and that they make the plans for everyone in the house? What about compromise and working together? Am I making sense?
I try to equate it to living with a roommate (though that's not
necessarily a good analogy, because we obviously have a totally
different relationship with our children) and how I would treat
them. A roommate my have a very different diet than my own, totally
different tv viewing habits and a far different level of comfort
with cleanliness. I wouldn't force myself upon another adult (unless
they were disregarding my personal boundaries) or try to control
their choices....so I won't do that with my children either.
I really don't agree with this. I don't live with roommates, I live with my family. I have had both and it is totally different living with a family than a roommate. I was not the least bit bothered if my room mate ate Mc'D every day and stayed out all night and slept most of the day. As long as they had the rent and kept things tidy and didn't put their moods on me fine. But I also had no obligation to them either.. I do to my family. It is a totally different thing in my opinion.
Enjoy the unschooling journey!
Ren
Thanks, so far life is more peaceful around here. Once I started asking myself "why am I saying no" and stopped saying no to the trivial things and gave up the need to decide on those things, she doesn't resist the really big things I have to say no on as much. Less fighting, less complaining, less whining... all is good so far. And more peace in me, less judgment of my decisions, less feeling like I am lacking and more acceptance of what is... also all good.
Thanks for the welcome,
Sherri-Lee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
>> Should the parents not be able to go do what they want to because of thechild's wishes?
**We've found that treating our kids' wants seriously has led to their
taking our wants seriously. We've never made them go anywhere they don't
want to go. If there's somewhere Jon and I both want to go they work with
us to figure out a way to make it happen. Sometimes they go to my sister's
house, sometimes we combine what we want to do with something they'd like to
do. Most often they'll just make the best of it without any problem. If
they feel very strongly that they don't want to go and would be miserable
going they know our wants don't take priority over that for us, but taking
your kids' choices seriously does not have to mean "the child learning that
the world revolves around them and that they make the plans for everyone in
the house". ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dana Matt
Lets say the parents want to go do something
like the home improvement stores....too big, too
stinky, too noisy? Not sure why, she can't explain
it. These are some options that we've used:
One parent goes to home improvement store without the
rest of the family.
Both parents go, and kids stay in the car and watch
TV.
Kids come into the store, but they hang out in the
greenhouse area, which my daughter likes.
Kids and one parent run across the street to Borders
while one parent shops.
Kids come into store but stop at the entrance and have
a hot dog and espresso and sit at the picnic table.
Kids come in and are happy to look at paint samples
and plan their future rooms.
We coincide the trip with the kids' workshops that
they have on Saturday mornings.
Kids come in and get crafting stuff--flower pots and
tile for mosaics, etc.
These are just a few of the things we've done.
There's always more than one way to make everyone
happy...
Dana
in Montana
__________________________________
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> on the weekend, shop for materials for a homeWe have this exact problem...my 6 yo really doesn't
> project they are working on (currently going on in
> my home) and the child does not want to go out.
> Should the parents not be able to go do what they
> want to because of the child's wishes? How do you
> manage to respect everyone's wishes when they are so
> completely opposite?
like the home improvement stores....too big, too
stinky, too noisy? Not sure why, she can't explain
it. These are some options that we've used:
One parent goes to home improvement store without the
rest of the family.
Both parents go, and kids stay in the car and watch
TV.
Kids come into the store, but they hang out in the
greenhouse area, which my daughter likes.
Kids and one parent run across the street to Borders
while one parent shops.
Kids come into store but stop at the entrance and have
a hot dog and espresso and sit at the picnic table.
Kids come in and are happy to look at paint samples
and plan their future rooms.
We coincide the trip with the kids' workshops that
they have on Saturday mornings.
Kids come in and get crafting stuff--flower pots and
tile for mosaics, etc.
These are just a few of the things we've done.
There's always more than one way to make everyone
happy...
Dana
in Montana
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Rue,
This is an interesting perspective. I don't think I don't take my child's wishes seriously. But just like I don't always get to do what I want, neither does she. And just as unschooling says she shouldn't have to "ask" about food to eat or tv etc, then I don't feel that I have to "ask" my daughter if I can plan my day a certain way. I always take into consideration her desires for the day and try to incorporate what she wants to do within what I *need* to do and in most cases, I am the one who puts off what I have to do because of her needs or wants.
I guess it is all in how it is presented. Sadly I have no family or friends I can leave her with if I want to go do something and she doesn't want to come. Luckily this is not a usual scenario for us, more often than not, she just wants to come with me no matter where I am going.
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
This is an interesting perspective. I don't think I don't take my child's wishes seriously. But just like I don't always get to do what I want, neither does she. And just as unschooling says she shouldn't have to "ask" about food to eat or tv etc, then I don't feel that I have to "ask" my daughter if I can plan my day a certain way. I always take into consideration her desires for the day and try to incorporate what she wants to do within what I *need* to do and in most cases, I am the one who puts off what I have to do because of her needs or wants.
I guess it is all in how it is presented. Sadly I have no family or friends I can leave her with if I want to go do something and she doesn't want to come. Luckily this is not a usual scenario for us, more often than not, she just wants to come with me no matter where I am going.
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon and Rue Kream
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 2:58 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
>> Should the parents not be able to go do what they want to because of the
child's wishes?
**We've found that treating our kids' wants seriously has led to their
taking our wants seriously. We've never made them go anywhere they don't
want to go. If there's somewhere Jon and I both want to go they work with
us to figure out a way to make it happen. Sometimes they go to my sister's
house, sometimes we combine what we want to do with something they'd like to
do. Most often they'll just make the best of it without any problem. If
they feel very strongly that they don't want to go and would be miserable
going they know our wants don't take priority over that for us, but taking
your kids' choices seriously does not have to mean "the child learning that
the world revolves around them and that they make the plans for everyone in
the house". ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Dana,
These are great suggestions, thanks for sharing them. Right now at 4 I think some wouldn't work for us yet as I won't leave her unattended, but of course there is always the option of one going and the other (parent) staying with her.
Thanks,
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
These are great suggestions, thanks for sharing them. Right now at 4 I think some wouldn't work for us yet as I won't leave her unattended, but of course there is always the option of one going and the other (parent) staying with her.
Thanks,
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Dana Matt
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
Lets say the parents want to go do something
> on the weekend, shop for materials for a home
> project they are working on (currently going on in
> my home) and the child does not want to go out.
> Should the parents not be able to go do what they
> want to because of the child's wishes? How do you
> manage to respect everyone's wishes when they are so
> completely opposite?
We have this exact problem...my 6 yo really doesn't
like the home improvement stores....too big, too
stinky, too noisy? Not sure why, she can't explain
it. These are some options that we've used:
One parent goes to home improvement store without the
rest of the family.
Both parents go, and kids stay in the car and watch
TV.
Kids come into the store, but they hang out in the
greenhouse area, which my daughter likes.
Kids and one parent run across the street to Borders
while one parent shops.
Kids come into store but stop at the entrance and have
a hot dog and espresso and sit at the picnic table.
Kids come in and are happy to look at paint samples
and plan their future rooms.
We coincide the trip with the kids' workshops that
they have on Saturday mornings.
Kids come in and get crafting stuff--flower pots and
tile for mosaics, etc.
These are just a few of the things we've done.
There's always more than one way to make everyone
happy...
Dana
in Montana
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
>>I don't think I don't take my child's wishes seriously.**I wasn't implying that I thought you did! Sorry if it came across that
way. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sherri-Lee Pressman
NO No no... you didn't imply that at all... just made me think about it and ask myself and run scenarios in my head to see what the feel for it was from my dd's perspective and was just mumbling about what the outcome of that was...
I check in, because there was a long time when I wasn't respectful to anyone, including myself and it hurt a lot of people and so I am very aware of it now. My idea of respect might be a lot different than others as I think there is degrees to all these things we are talking about, but I have come leaps and bounds from what I was like.
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
I check in, because there was a long time when I wasn't respectful to anyone, including myself and it hurt a lot of people and so I am very aware of it now. My idea of respect might be a lot different than others as I think there is degrees to all these things we are talking about, but I have come leaps and bounds from what I was like.
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon and Rue Kream
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 6:24 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
>>I don't think I don't take my child's wishes seriously.
**I wasn't implying that I thought you did! Sorry if it came across that
way. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:s-lp@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
"As unschooling says she shouldn't have to "ask" about food to eat or tv
etc, then I don't feel that I have to "ask" my daughter if I can plan my day
a certain way."
Hi, Sherri,
Just wanted to chime in with a few thoughts on this part. The things it
makes sense to me that I need to ask my kids about and that they need to ask
me about is plans and decisions we make that involve participation from each
other. So to take one of your examples, I wouldn't "ask" my daughter about
food I am eating since it doesn't involve her participation or any
involvement on her part, and the only reason she would need to "ask" me
about food she is eating is if she needs my help making it. Then she would
need to "ask" me not about the content, but about how I feel about making
it, since I am the one doing the making and I may feel for example "Gosh,
it's so hot today, I just don't feel I can turn on the oven for that" or
alternately "Well, I just cooked for you guys 15 minutes ago and I don't
really feel like cooking again." Then I would ask "Can you make do with
something I don't have to cook?" or something similar and we would have a
discussion about it considering everyone's needs and hopefully coming up
with a solution that everyone feels good about.
Any plans I make for our day together that don't require my kids
participation, I don't feel I need to "ask" them about. I would definitely
however notify them ahead of time about plans where we split up so they know
what to expect and I am always open to talking about their feelings about
being away from me. If the plans I am pondering require my children's
participation, then it makes sense to me that I would honor their feelings
as participants and "ask" them how they feel about partipating (just like
they would ask me about cooking for them). That does not mean that my
feelings are not important or not as important as theirs. It's not about
measuring feelings for me. It does mean that since we would all be doing it
together, all our feelings are important, and thus it is important for us
all to talk, to put on our "thinking hats" as I like to say (at one point my
daughter and I made physical "thinking hats" together we used to put on). I
would start to spell out "Well, Mom needs this, Dad needs this, Aline needs
this, Nicky needs this. How can we get all our needs met?" We brainstorm
and problem solve and I take their suggestions seriously, whatever they may
happen to be. This method has had many benefits for us. I have found that
it has turned my children into little problem solvers and also allowed them
to come up with ideas that help us find solutions I might have gotten too
frustrated to get to.
An example would be: Today I had promised my brother in law that we would
come over to his house. My sister was out of town and he wanted to work on
his pool. He asked me if my dh and I would help with his kids (ages 4 yrs
and 10 months) while he did this and I said sure. He also was looking for
help at certain points on the pool from dh. The last time we went, my kids
were happy enough to go to their cousins house. Today turned out to be a
problem. My daughter (who is a huge homebody anyway and a big challenge to
get out of the house most days) didn't get enough sleep, and also was
incredibly grumpy when some modelling crafts we had made that she wanted to
paint that were not dry enough. She didn't want to go with us, she wanted
to stay home and wait for them to dry. I had made a promise to my BIL. So
we talked about it. I told her that I could see her disappointment over the
crafts (and explained why I thought we had estimated wrong on the drying
time) and I understood how she really wanted to paint them. I also
explained that Mama had made this promise with her uncle. What could we do?
She suggested bringing her cousins to our house instead and just daddy goes
to her uncle's (very ingenious!) I said that was a good idea, but what I
was concerned about was that her 10 month old cousin hasn't spent a lot of
time with us and might need her daddy at some point and it would be a half
hour drive to get her to him if she got really upset. And I pointed out
that all of them would have to come with me. I said "how about if your
older cousin comes here, you can stay home with Daddy and her, I will go
watch the 10 month old at your uncle's house and try to juggle her to help
with the pool if needed (throw her in a backpack carrier perhaps). She was
intrigued by this idea but also doesn't like to be away from me all
afternoon. She decided to think about it for a while until my dh came back
from his morning run and it would be closer to time to go. Shortly after my
dh came back she remembered that she was wanting to paint a wooden bug box
from the craft store that we saw on our last visit. She really wanted to go
to the craft store, get it and paint it (in lieu of the undried items). So
I countered with a plan: We would go to the craft store, get the bug
catcher, plus something for her brother and older cousin to paint (she could
help me pick it out). We would bring all our painting materials with us and
she could paint her bug catcher together with brother and cousin at her
cousin's house. "Yes!" she cried, and we'd found a solution that worked for
everyone.
When I first started doing this sort of thing, I found it really hard to
gather the time and patience to negotiate, problem solve, wait some more,
focus on listening to my kids instead of my own internal frustration. But
as we did it more and more, it got easier and easier. And in my book it way
beats trying to impose my will on them to go regardless of how they feel
about it. Not only because that makes for frustration and hurt feelings all
around, but because I feel that the biggest thing I am in my children's life
is an example. If my example is "I get to impose my will on you regardless
of how I feel because I want to", then that is how they learn to problem
solve. If my example is "Let's problem solve by taking everyone's needs
into account and figuring out the best scenario", then they learn to do that
which not only helps them in the family, but helps them negotiate life. My
bottom line: I had made a promise to my BIL, but I also would have been open
to calling my BIL and asking him if we could re-schedule if it came down to
that.
My children are not hearing they are in charge. They are hearing that we
are all in it together, that we all have different needs and feelings, and
they are learning how to figure it out together.
Hope that makes some sense to you in the place where you are at...
Joan
Mom to Aline 5.7 and Nicky 3.4
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman [mailto:s-lp@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 9:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
"As unschooling says she shouldn't have to "ask" about food to eat or tv
etc, then I don't feel that I have to "ask" my daughter if I can plan my day
a certain way."
Hi, Sherri,
Just wanted to chime in with a few thoughts on this part. The things it
makes sense to me that I need to ask my kids about and that they need to ask
me about is plans and decisions we make that involve participation from each
other. So to take one of your examples, I wouldn't "ask" my daughter about
food I am eating since it doesn't involve her participation or any
involvement on her part, and the only reason she would need to "ask" me
about food she is eating is if she needs my help making it. Then she would
need to "ask" me not about the content, but about how I feel about making
it, since I am the one doing the making and I may feel for example "Gosh,
it's so hot today, I just don't feel I can turn on the oven for that" or
alternately "Well, I just cooked for you guys 15 minutes ago and I don't
really feel like cooking again." Then I would ask "Can you make do with
something I don't have to cook?" or something similar and we would have a
discussion about it considering everyone's needs and hopefully coming up
with a solution that everyone feels good about.
Any plans I make for our day together that don't require my kids
participation, I don't feel I need to "ask" them about. I would definitely
however notify them ahead of time about plans where we split up so they know
what to expect and I am always open to talking about their feelings about
being away from me. If the plans I am pondering require my children's
participation, then it makes sense to me that I would honor their feelings
as participants and "ask" them how they feel about partipating (just like
they would ask me about cooking for them). That does not mean that my
feelings are not important or not as important as theirs. It's not about
measuring feelings for me. It does mean that since we would all be doing it
together, all our feelings are important, and thus it is important for us
all to talk, to put on our "thinking hats" as I like to say (at one point my
daughter and I made physical "thinking hats" together we used to put on). I
would start to spell out "Well, Mom needs this, Dad needs this, Aline needs
this, Nicky needs this. How can we get all our needs met?" We brainstorm
and problem solve and I take their suggestions seriously, whatever they may
happen to be. This method has had many benefits for us. I have found that
it has turned my children into little problem solvers and also allowed them
to come up with ideas that help us find solutions I might have gotten too
frustrated to get to.
An example would be: Today I had promised my brother in law that we would
come over to his house. My sister was out of town and he wanted to work on
his pool. He asked me if my dh and I would help with his kids (ages 4 yrs
and 10 months) while he did this and I said sure. He also was looking for
help at certain points on the pool from dh. The last time we went, my kids
were happy enough to go to their cousins house. Today turned out to be a
problem. My daughter (who is a huge homebody anyway and a big challenge to
get out of the house most days) didn't get enough sleep, and also was
incredibly grumpy when some modelling crafts we had made that she wanted to
paint that were not dry enough. She didn't want to go with us, she wanted
to stay home and wait for them to dry. I had made a promise to my BIL. So
we talked about it. I told her that I could see her disappointment over the
crafts (and explained why I thought we had estimated wrong on the drying
time) and I understood how she really wanted to paint them. I also
explained that Mama had made this promise with her uncle. What could we do?
She suggested bringing her cousins to our house instead and just daddy goes
to her uncle's (very ingenious!) I said that was a good idea, but what I
was concerned about was that her 10 month old cousin hasn't spent a lot of
time with us and might need her daddy at some point and it would be a half
hour drive to get her to him if she got really upset. And I pointed out
that all of them would have to come with me. I said "how about if your
older cousin comes here, you can stay home with Daddy and her, I will go
watch the 10 month old at your uncle's house and try to juggle her to help
with the pool if needed (throw her in a backpack carrier perhaps). She was
intrigued by this idea but also doesn't like to be away from me all
afternoon. She decided to think about it for a while until my dh came back
from his morning run and it would be closer to time to go. Shortly after my
dh came back she remembered that she was wanting to paint a wooden bug box
from the craft store that we saw on our last visit. She really wanted to go
to the craft store, get it and paint it (in lieu of the undried items). So
I countered with a plan: We would go to the craft store, get the bug
catcher, plus something for her brother and older cousin to paint (she could
help me pick it out). We would bring all our painting materials with us and
she could paint her bug catcher together with brother and cousin at her
cousin's house. "Yes!" she cried, and we'd found a solution that worked for
everyone.
When I first started doing this sort of thing, I found it really hard to
gather the time and patience to negotiate, problem solve, wait some more,
focus on listening to my kids instead of my own internal frustration. But
as we did it more and more, it got easier and easier. And in my book it way
beats trying to impose my will on them to go regardless of how they feel
about it. Not only because that makes for frustration and hurt feelings all
around, but because I feel that the biggest thing I am in my children's life
is an example. If my example is "I get to impose my will on you regardless
of how I feel because I want to", then that is how they learn to problem
solve. If my example is "Let's problem solve by taking everyone's needs
into account and figuring out the best scenario", then they learn to do that
which not only helps them in the family, but helps them negotiate life. My
bottom line: I had made a promise to my BIL, but I also would have been open
to calling my BIL and asking him if we could re-schedule if it came down to
that.
My children are not hearing they are in charge. They are hearing that we
are all in it together, that we all have different needs and feelings, and
they are learning how to figure it out together.
Hope that makes some sense to you in the place where you are at...
Joan
Mom to Aline 5.7 and Nicky 3.4
pam sorooshian
On Jun 12, 2004, at 8:41 PM, Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese wrote:
Joan. Thanks for taking the time to write out the details - that's
where the important information really is!
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
>I loved your description of the whole creative problem solving process,
> My children are not hearing they are in charge. They are hearing that
> we
> are all in it together, that we all have different needs and feelings,
> and
> they are learning how to figure it out together.
Joan. Thanks for taking the time to write out the details - that's
where the important information really is!
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Fetteroll
on 6/12/04 4:10 PM, Sherri-Lee Pressman at s-lp@... wrote:
wishes?
The goal isn't one person getting their way at the expense of the other. The
goal is trying to find a solution that works for everyone.
If a child is confident that the parent is working to help her get what she
wants, it won't feel like she's losing the battle if there are times when
it's more convenient for one person to have to give up what they want so
another person can get what they want.
I know it seems like we're always giving them what they want, but that
doesn't count! ;-) For instance, if a friend is always giving up her
peaceful Saturday afternoons without saying a word about it to help us do
some charity work, we're going to assume the friend is helping because she
wants to, not because she's making sacrifices to give us what we want.
So when we "give in" to them, children assume we're doing what we want.
It's those times when our wants and needs clash and kids see us willingly
making it a high priority to work out a way for us both to get our needs met
that gains kids' confidence that what the kids want is just as important to
us as what we want.
The way to encourage children to give is by giving not by taking from them!
If we set up the situation between us where one side needs to lose for the
other to win, kids will treat it as a battle. About the only tool they have
is to dig in their heels and hold onto the territory they have, even when
it's not territory that they feel strongly about. They know they often lose
because they're weaker and parents can just take whatever they want, so they
need to hold onto any territory they possibly can. So if they're asked to
give up an afternoon so mom and dad can shop, they'll draw the line and
refuse. Which leaves us the only option of making them go.
can get to a mental place where we don't resent helping a child who has so
little power in the world. We brought them into the world. And part of the
package deal is that we give up a lot of what we have to help them get what
they want. If you were dragged around here and there to boring places for
hours at a time just because your husband wanted to go and he was bigger and
stronger and could make you, it would be a big factor eating away at your
relationship.
their needs conflict with the parents needs and the parents decide they
don't want to inconvenience themselves to help everyone get what they want?
when parents talk about "compromise" it means kids get their way when it's
convenient for parents and parents get their way when it's not.
Joyce
> Lets say the parents want to go do something on the weekend, shop forShould the child not be able to do what she wants because of the parent's
> materials for a home project they are working on (currently going on in my
> home) and the child does not want to go out. Should the parents not be able to
> go do what they want to because of the child's wishes?
wishes?
The goal isn't one person getting their way at the expense of the other. The
goal is trying to find a solution that works for everyone.
If a child is confident that the parent is working to help her get what she
wants, it won't feel like she's losing the battle if there are times when
it's more convenient for one person to have to give up what they want so
another person can get what they want.
I know it seems like we're always giving them what they want, but that
doesn't count! ;-) For instance, if a friend is always giving up her
peaceful Saturday afternoons without saying a word about it to help us do
some charity work, we're going to assume the friend is helping because she
wants to, not because she's making sacrifices to give us what we want.
So when we "give in" to them, children assume we're doing what we want.
It's those times when our wants and needs clash and kids see us willingly
making it a high priority to work out a way for us both to get our needs met
that gains kids' confidence that what the kids want is just as important to
us as what we want.
The way to encourage children to give is by giving not by taking from them!
If we set up the situation between us where one side needs to lose for the
other to win, kids will treat it as a battle. About the only tool they have
is to dig in their heels and hold onto the territory they have, even when
it's not territory that they feel strongly about. They know they often lose
because they're weaker and parents can just take whatever they want, so they
need to hold onto any territory they possibly can. So if they're asked to
give up an afternoon so mom and dad can shop, they'll draw the line and
refuse. Which leaves us the only option of making them go.
> It feels likeIt helps to see what the world looks like from a child's point of view so we
> sometimes respecting the child happens at the expense of the parent and
> although I think the parent can do this as the adult and be ok with it
> sometimes, resentment comes when you give up of yourself too much to meet
> others needs.
can get to a mental place where we don't resent helping a child who has so
little power in the world. We brought them into the world. And part of the
package deal is that we give up a lot of what we have to help them get what
they want. If you were dragged around here and there to boring places for
hours at a time just because your husband wanted to go and he was bigger and
stronger and could make you, it would be a big factor eating away at your
relationship.
> And isn't the child learning that the world revolves around themAnd isnt' the child learning that they're second class citizens whenever
> and that they make the plans for everyone in the house?
their needs conflict with the parents needs and the parents decide they
don't want to inconvenience themselves to help everyone get what they want?
> What about compromiseIt's only compromise when everyone has equal power and equal say. Usually
> and working together? Am I making sense?
when parents talk about "compromise" it means kids get their way when it's
convenient for parents and parents get their way when it's not.
Joyce
Fetteroll
on 6/12/04 9:09 PM, Sherri-Lee Pressman at s-lp@... wrote:
your needs had to be set aside until your daughter could figure out how to
fit them into the things she needed to do that day? And what if she picked
and chose which of your needs it was convenient for her to squeeze into her
day?
You may often feel like you are setting your needs aside to meet her needs,
but the big difference is that you get to choose which of your needs to set
aside and when. And you could choose not to.
Better is fitting everyone's needs into the *family's* day.
Joyce
> I always take into consideration her desires for the day and try toWhen said that way, you are deciding how to fit her into your day. What if
> incorporate what she wants to do within what I *need* to do and in most cases,
> I am the one who puts off what I have to do because of her needs or wants.
your needs had to be set aside until your daughter could figure out how to
fit them into the things she needed to do that day? And what if she picked
and chose which of your needs it was convenient for her to squeeze into her
day?
You may often feel like you are setting your needs aside to meet her needs,
but the big difference is that you get to choose which of your needs to set
aside and when. And you could choose not to.
Better is fitting everyone's needs into the *family's* day.
Joyce
Dana Matt
Ok, some younger kid ideas then....
When my daughter was 4, we loved to go to the bathroom
part of the home improvment store and pretend to play
in the bathtubs, pretend lather up, pretend going to
the bathroom, pretend washing our hands....
Then we would go to the door section and play
"visitor", and knock on the door and the other person
would answer and say "Oh, hello! How nice of you to
visit!" Or there's also "Little Pig, Little Pig, let
me come in!" and the other person answers from the
other side of the door "Not by the hair of my chinny
chin chin will I open the door so that you cn come
in!" and then lots of huffing and puffing and
blowing....
And also the kitchen section, pretending to cook and
eat and serve....
And I don't know about your home improvent place, but
ours has popcorn and espresso and hot dogs and candy
and all kinds of interesting things to eat....
Oh, and working doorbells in the lock and doorbell
isle!
And then the playground equiptment--that's fun stuff
to see!
I think it was at 4 that my kids LOVED to kids
workshops, so I mention those again...
And, seriously, how many times do both you *and* your
husband have to go there together? Hell, Petsmart is
right next door--always more fun! :D
Dana
in Montana
--- Sherri-Lee Pressman <s-lp@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger.
http://messenger.yahoo.com/
When my daughter was 4, we loved to go to the bathroom
part of the home improvment store and pretend to play
in the bathtubs, pretend lather up, pretend going to
the bathroom, pretend washing our hands....
Then we would go to the door section and play
"visitor", and knock on the door and the other person
would answer and say "Oh, hello! How nice of you to
visit!" Or there's also "Little Pig, Little Pig, let
me come in!" and the other person answers from the
other side of the door "Not by the hair of my chinny
chin chin will I open the door so that you cn come
in!" and then lots of huffing and puffing and
blowing....
And also the kitchen section, pretending to cook and
eat and serve....
And I don't know about your home improvent place, but
ours has popcorn and espresso and hot dogs and candy
and all kinds of interesting things to eat....
Oh, and working doorbells in the lock and doorbell
isle!
And then the playground equiptment--that's fun stuff
to see!
I think it was at 4 that my kids LOVED to kids
workshops, so I mention those again...
And, seriously, how many times do both you *and* your
husband have to go there together? Hell, Petsmart is
right next door--always more fun! :D
Dana
in Montana
--- Sherri-Lee Pressman <s-lp@...> wrote:
> Hi Dana,------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> These are great suggestions, thanks for sharing
> them. Right now at 4 I think some wouldn't work for
> us yet as I won't leave her unattended, but of
> course there is always the option of one going and
> the other (parent) staying with her.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Sherri-Lee
> Looking for safe and natural health products?
> http://www.aloeessence.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dana Matt
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 4:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
>
>
> Lets say the parents want to go do something
> > on the weekend, shop for materials for a home
> > project they are working on (currently going on
> in
> > my home) and the child does not want to go out.
> > Should the parents not be able to go do what
> they
> > want to because of the child's wishes? How do
> you
> > manage to respect everyone's wishes when they
> are so
> > completely opposite?
>
> We have this exact problem...my 6 yo really
> doesn't
> like the home improvement stores....too big, too
> stinky, too noisy? Not sure why, she can't
> explain
> it. These are some options that we've used:
>
> One parent goes to home improvement store without
> the
> rest of the family.
>
> Both parents go, and kids stay in the car and
> watch
> TV.
>
> Kids come into the store, but they hang out in the
> greenhouse area, which my daughter likes.
>
> Kids and one parent run across the street to
> Borders
> while one parent shops.
>
> Kids come into store but stop at the entrance and
> have
> a hot dog and espresso and sit at the picnic
> table.
>
> Kids come in and are happy to look at paint
> samples
> and plan their future rooms.
>
> We coincide the trip with the kids' workshops that
> they have on Saturday mornings.
>
> Kids come in and get crafting stuff--flower pots
> and
> tile for mosaics, etc.
>
> These are just a few of the things we've done.
> There's always more than one way to make everyone
> happy...
>
> Dana
> in Montana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi there,
Ok, I am sure no one will like this answer, but here it goes anyway.
I am the one who drives, I am the one with the money and I am the one who has to pay the bills, shop for groceries, take her to her music/gymnastics/swimming (or whatever she is into) class and so on. So to some extent, I am the one in charge for the day. I have no interest in living in a situation where everything is done by committee. In my experience (in other situations) little to nothing gets done in that situation. In our home, we all have things we need to do in the day. On the weekends, when we spend the day with dh, then we all list what we have to do (at 4 my dd has little she *has* to do each day other than class commitments (not on the weekend) and eating, and playing.) We then look at what *needs* to be done and what we want to do and try to fit it all in. If we make a plan and it becomes apparent that my dd has no patience for anymore running around then we go home and have a better time than if we stayed out. Perhaps one of us goes out to finish the errands or perhaps they get put off if they can to the next day. No one person dominates the day and no one person gives up the most, we all try to fit the others into our day.
But if we had bills that HAD to be paid, or groceries that HAD to be bought and dd wanted to go to the park, that would have to wait until after the jobs that had to be done were done. Same as if I wanted to go to Starbucks for a coffee, that wouldn't happen until after the work too if we had some time limit.
If she was adamant that she didn't want to come to something, then she could chose to come with us or stay home with one of us. My point in my question was what if it was something that both parents HAD to do together, which does happen sometimes.
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
Ok, I am sure no one will like this answer, but here it goes anyway.
I am the one who drives, I am the one with the money and I am the one who has to pay the bills, shop for groceries, take her to her music/gymnastics/swimming (or whatever she is into) class and so on. So to some extent, I am the one in charge for the day. I have no interest in living in a situation where everything is done by committee. In my experience (in other situations) little to nothing gets done in that situation. In our home, we all have things we need to do in the day. On the weekends, when we spend the day with dh, then we all list what we have to do (at 4 my dd has little she *has* to do each day other than class commitments (not on the weekend) and eating, and playing.) We then look at what *needs* to be done and what we want to do and try to fit it all in. If we make a plan and it becomes apparent that my dd has no patience for anymore running around then we go home and have a better time than if we stayed out. Perhaps one of us goes out to finish the errands or perhaps they get put off if they can to the next day. No one person dominates the day and no one person gives up the most, we all try to fit the others into our day.
But if we had bills that HAD to be paid, or groceries that HAD to be bought and dd wanted to go to the park, that would have to wait until after the jobs that had to be done were done. Same as if I wanted to go to Starbucks for a coffee, that wouldn't happen until after the work too if we had some time limit.
If she was adamant that she didn't want to come to something, then she could chose to come with us or stay home with one of us. My point in my question was what if it was something that both parents HAD to do together, which does happen sometimes.
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 3:07 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
on 6/12/04 9:09 PM, Sherri-Lee Pressman at s-lp@... wrote:
> I always take into consideration her desires for the day and try to
> incorporate what she wants to do within what I *need* to do and in most cases,
> I am the one who puts off what I have to do because of her needs or wants.
When said that way, you are deciding how to fit her into your day. What if
your needs had to be set aside until your daughter could figure out how to
fit them into the things she needed to do that day? And what if she picked
and chose which of your needs it was convenient for her to squeeze into her
day?
You may often feel like you are setting your needs aside to meet her needs,
but the big difference is that you get to choose which of your needs to set
aside and when. And you could choose not to.
Better is fitting everyone's needs into the *family's* day.
Joyce
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Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi there,
Should the child not be able to do what she wants because of the parent's
wishes?
I think the reality is that sometimes someone has to do something they don't want to, or miss out on something they want, simply because there are other people in the family.
The goal isn't one person getting their way at the expense of the other. The
goal is trying to find a solution that works for everyone.
I agree, but sometimes it just doesn't happen that way. Can you say that you are able to accomodate every person in your family on every given day?
If a child is confident that the parent is working to help her get what she
wants, it won't feel like she's losing the battle if there are times when
it's more convenient for one person to have to give up what they want so
another person can get what they want.
I agree with this, I think we just go about it in different ways.
I know it seems like we're always giving them what they want, but that
doesn't count! ;-) For instance, if a friend is always giving up her
peaceful Saturday afternoons without saying a word about it to help us do
some charity work, we're going to assume the friend is helping because she
wants to, not because she's making sacrifices to give us what we want.
The "friend" being an adult has the responsibility to say what they are feeling and to not do things that they aren't wanting to do especially if they are feeling like they are *sacrificing*. It isn't the job of the other person to guess what they are feeling. So if I put off my things to do something of hers, I let her know. I say "well I can see you really want to go to the park, so I can put off these errands till tomorrow, so lets go". But if I am 5 minutes away from a client coming then there is no way I can do it. Not everything can be put off for a trip to the park.
So when we "give in" to them, children assume we're doing what we want.
They do if we don't communicate with them.
It's those times when our wants and needs clash and kids see us willingly
making it a high priority to work out a way for us both to get our needs met
that gains kids' confidence that what the kids want is just as important to
us as what we want.
I agree. That doesn't mean the kids get to do everything they want to at the expense of everyone else. Or that the adults get to do everything they want at the expense of the kids.
The way to encourage children to give is by giving not by taking from them!
Again, I agree.
If we set up the situation between us where one side needs to lose for the
other to win, kids will treat it as a battle. About the only tool they have
is to dig in their heels and hold onto the territory they have, even when
it's not territory that they feel strongly about. They know they often lose
because they're weaker and parents can just take whatever they want, so they
need to hold onto any territory they possibly can. So if they're asked to
give up an afternoon so mom and dad can shop, they'll draw the line and
refuse. Which leaves us the only option of making them go.
Why do you assume it is a win/lose situation in my home? I try to make it win/win for all of us. I spent a half an hour in the rain at an outdoor Barney concert today for goodness sake, that sure wasn't because I wanted to be there or didn't have 50 other things I could be doing. But it went on the calendar weeks ago as a commitment we made to do today, after our midwives appointment. So we all got things done. Win/win. No one complained or sacrificed more than the other.
It helps to see what the world looks like from a child's point of view so we
can get to a mental place where we don't resent helping a child who has so
little power in the world. We brought them into the world. And part of the
package deal is that we give up a lot of what we have to help them get what
they want. If you were dragged around here and there to boring places for
hours at a time just because your husband wanted to go and he was bigger and
stronger and could make you, it would be a big factor eating away at your
relationship.
Give up a lot yes, not everything. I seek balance. I do not drag my child around to boring places for hours at a time just because I want to go there and I am bigger and can make her. I really resent that implication to be honest.
And isnt' the child learning that they're second class citizens whenever
their needs conflict with the parents needs and the parents decide they
don't want to inconvenience themselves to help everyone get what they want?
Depending on how it is handled. Seems to be a lot of assumptions going on to be honest. They do not have to learn they are second class citizens, to do things that other want. They also do not have to learn that the world revolves around them and they get to do only what they want to. Again, when we have conflicting needs, the parents don't always get what they want and don't always decide by inconvenience to them. I am sure you have met people like that, but nothing I said in my post indicated that I was that kind of parent. So why are you assuming it? If I don't do it your way then I must be neglecting my child's needs and dragging them around without a thought to their needs? Hogwash. There is a happy medium.
It's only compromise when everyone has equal power and equal say. Usually
when parents talk about "compromise" it means kids get their way when it's
convenient for parents and parents get their way when it's not.
I don't agree with your definition of compromise. Often there are compromises when there is very unequal power and say. And sometimes there are exceptions to the rule.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Sherri-Lee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Should the child not be able to do what she wants because of the parent's
wishes?
I think the reality is that sometimes someone has to do something they don't want to, or miss out on something they want, simply because there are other people in the family.
The goal isn't one person getting their way at the expense of the other. The
goal is trying to find a solution that works for everyone.
I agree, but sometimes it just doesn't happen that way. Can you say that you are able to accomodate every person in your family on every given day?
If a child is confident that the parent is working to help her get what she
wants, it won't feel like she's losing the battle if there are times when
it's more convenient for one person to have to give up what they want so
another person can get what they want.
I agree with this, I think we just go about it in different ways.
I know it seems like we're always giving them what they want, but that
doesn't count! ;-) For instance, if a friend is always giving up her
peaceful Saturday afternoons without saying a word about it to help us do
some charity work, we're going to assume the friend is helping because she
wants to, not because she's making sacrifices to give us what we want.
The "friend" being an adult has the responsibility to say what they are feeling and to not do things that they aren't wanting to do especially if they are feeling like they are *sacrificing*. It isn't the job of the other person to guess what they are feeling. So if I put off my things to do something of hers, I let her know. I say "well I can see you really want to go to the park, so I can put off these errands till tomorrow, so lets go". But if I am 5 minutes away from a client coming then there is no way I can do it. Not everything can be put off for a trip to the park.
So when we "give in" to them, children assume we're doing what we want.
They do if we don't communicate with them.
It's those times when our wants and needs clash and kids see us willingly
making it a high priority to work out a way for us both to get our needs met
that gains kids' confidence that what the kids want is just as important to
us as what we want.
I agree. That doesn't mean the kids get to do everything they want to at the expense of everyone else. Or that the adults get to do everything they want at the expense of the kids.
The way to encourage children to give is by giving not by taking from them!
Again, I agree.
If we set up the situation between us where one side needs to lose for the
other to win, kids will treat it as a battle. About the only tool they have
is to dig in their heels and hold onto the territory they have, even when
it's not territory that they feel strongly about. They know they often lose
because they're weaker and parents can just take whatever they want, so they
need to hold onto any territory they possibly can. So if they're asked to
give up an afternoon so mom and dad can shop, they'll draw the line and
refuse. Which leaves us the only option of making them go.
Why do you assume it is a win/lose situation in my home? I try to make it win/win for all of us. I spent a half an hour in the rain at an outdoor Barney concert today for goodness sake, that sure wasn't because I wanted to be there or didn't have 50 other things I could be doing. But it went on the calendar weeks ago as a commitment we made to do today, after our midwives appointment. So we all got things done. Win/win. No one complained or sacrificed more than the other.
It helps to see what the world looks like from a child's point of view so we
can get to a mental place where we don't resent helping a child who has so
little power in the world. We brought them into the world. And part of the
package deal is that we give up a lot of what we have to help them get what
they want. If you were dragged around here and there to boring places for
hours at a time just because your husband wanted to go and he was bigger and
stronger and could make you, it would be a big factor eating away at your
relationship.
Give up a lot yes, not everything. I seek balance. I do not drag my child around to boring places for hours at a time just because I want to go there and I am bigger and can make her. I really resent that implication to be honest.
And isnt' the child learning that they're second class citizens whenever
their needs conflict with the parents needs and the parents decide they
don't want to inconvenience themselves to help everyone get what they want?
Depending on how it is handled. Seems to be a lot of assumptions going on to be honest. They do not have to learn they are second class citizens, to do things that other want. They also do not have to learn that the world revolves around them and they get to do only what they want to. Again, when we have conflicting needs, the parents don't always get what they want and don't always decide by inconvenience to them. I am sure you have met people like that, but nothing I said in my post indicated that I was that kind of parent. So why are you assuming it? If I don't do it your way then I must be neglecting my child's needs and dragging them around without a thought to their needs? Hogwash. There is a happy medium.
It's only compromise when everyone has equal power and equal say. Usually
when parents talk about "compromise" it means kids get their way when it's
convenient for parents and parents get their way when it's not.
I don't agree with your definition of compromise. Often there are compromises when there is very unequal power and say. And sometimes there are exceptions to the rule.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Sherri-Lee
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Dana
These are good ideas, thank you, I will remember then if we encounter a day of strong resistance and can't avoid the home improvement store:)
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
These are good ideas, thank you, I will remember then if we encounter a day of strong resistance and can't avoid the home improvement store:)
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Dana Matt
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 11:14 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
Ok, some younger kid ideas then....
When my daughter was 4, we loved to go to the bathroom
part of the home improvment store and pretend to play
in the bathtubs, pretend lather up, pretend going to
the bathroom, pretend washing our hands....
Then we would go to the door section and play
"visitor", and knock on the door and the other person
would answer and say "Oh, hello! How nice of you to
visit!" Or there's also "Little Pig, Little Pig, let
me come in!" and the other person answers from the
other side of the door "Not by the hair of my chinny
chin chin will I open the door so that you cn come
in!" and then lots of huffing and puffing and
blowing....
And also the kitchen section, pretending to cook and
eat and serve....
And I don't know about your home improvent place, but
ours has popcorn and espresso and hot dogs and candy
and all kinds of interesting things to eat....
Oh, and working doorbells in the lock and doorbell
isle!
And then the playground equiptment--that's fun stuff
to see!
I think it was at 4 that my kids LOVED to kids
workshops, so I mention those again...
And, seriously, how many times do both you *and* your
husband have to go there together? Hell, Petsmart is
right next door--always more fun! :D
Dana
in Montana
--- Sherri-Lee Pressman <s-lp@...> wrote:
> Hi Dana,
>
> These are great suggestions, thanks for sharing
> them. Right now at 4 I think some wouldn't work for
> us yet as I won't leave her unattended, but of
> course there is always the option of one going and
> the other (parent) staying with her.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Sherri-Lee
> Looking for safe and natural health products?
> http://www.aloeessence.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Dana Matt
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 2004 4:35 PM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
>
>
> Lets say the parents want to go do something
> > on the weekend, shop for materials for a home
> > project they are working on (currently going on
> in
> > my home) and the child does not want to go out.
> > Should the parents not be able to go do what
> they
> > want to because of the child's wishes? How do
> you
> > manage to respect everyone's wishes when they
> are so
> > completely opposite?
>
> We have this exact problem...my 6 yo really
> doesn't
> like the home improvement stores....too big, too
> stinky, too noisy? Not sure why, she can't
> explain
> it. These are some options that we've used:
>
> One parent goes to home improvement store without
> the
> rest of the family.
>
> Both parents go, and kids stay in the car and
> watch
> TV.
>
> Kids come into the store, but they hang out in the
> greenhouse area, which my daughter likes.
>
> Kids and one parent run across the street to
> Borders
> while one parent shops.
>
> Kids come into store but stop at the entrance and
> have
> a hot dog and espresso and sit at the picnic
> table.
>
> Kids come in and are happy to look at paint
> samples
> and plan their future rooms.
>
> We coincide the trip with the kids' workshops that
> they have on Saturday mornings.
>
> Kids come in and get crafting stuff--flower pots
> and
> tile for mosaics, etc.
>
> These are just a few of the things we've done.
> There's always more than one way to make everyone
> happy...
>
> Dana
> in Montana
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"I am sure you have met people like that, but nothing I
said in my post indicated that I was that kind of parent. So why are
you
assuming it? If I don't do it your way then I must be neglecting my
child's
needs and dragging them around without a thought to their needs?
Hogwash. There
is a happy medium."
Sherri,
People can only respond to what you post, they only have your words
to go on. Nobody is assuming anything...this is a discussion of
ideas and philosophy, not about any person.
As the guidelines state, if you don't want something discussed,
don't post about that topic, because it will get discussed here.
It's good to assume that everyone is offering up the best advice in
their arsenal, take what you like and leave the rest, but don't turn
it into something personal. Stick to discussing the ideas presented
please.
Thanks,
Ren
said in my post indicated that I was that kind of parent. So why are
you
assuming it? If I don't do it your way then I must be neglecting my
child's
needs and dragging them around without a thought to their needs?
Hogwash. There
is a happy medium."
Sherri,
People can only respond to what you post, they only have your words
to go on. Nobody is assuming anything...this is a discussion of
ideas and philosophy, not about any person.
As the guidelines state, if you don't want something discussed,
don't post about that topic, because it will get discussed here.
It's good to assume that everyone is offering up the best advice in
their arsenal, take what you like and leave the rest, but don't turn
it into something personal. Stick to discussing the ideas presented
please.
Thanks,
Ren
pam sorooshian
On Jun 13, 2004, at 5:21 PM, Sherri-Lee Pressman wrote:
two or more people are really totally on the same wavelength and
supporting each other and not at all thinking in terms of "me" versus
"you" but only in terms of "us?"
I think what Joyce has been trying to describe is a way to create that
in our families. That is something very different than everything being
done "by committee" and I KNOW what you mean by that - it can be pure
torture!!
I also wanted to say that neither Joyce, nor anybody else, actually
knows your family and so anything said should not be taken personally -
you get to decide if something applies to you or not. Pretend it is a
bunch of different foods being offered to you - they are recipes people
really like - but you can take the kinds you like and leave the rest
and, even better, they never have to know you didn't like their
favorite recipe.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> I am the one who drives, I am the one with the money and I am the oneHave you ever experienced synergy? This amazing "flow" can happen when
> who has to pay the bills, shop for groceries, take her to her
> music/gymnastics/swimming (or whatever she is into) class and so on.
> So to some extent, I am the one in charge for the day. I have no
> interest in living in a situation where everything is done by
> committee. In my experience (in other situations) little to nothing
> gets done in that situation.
two or more people are really totally on the same wavelength and
supporting each other and not at all thinking in terms of "me" versus
"you" but only in terms of "us?"
I think what Joyce has been trying to describe is a way to create that
in our families. That is something very different than everything being
done "by committee" and I KNOW what you mean by that - it can be pure
torture!!
I also wanted to say that neither Joyce, nor anybody else, actually
knows your family and so anything said should not be taken personally -
you get to decide if something applies to you or not. Pretend it is a
bunch of different foods being offered to you - they are recipes people
really like - but you can take the kinds you like and leave the rest
and, even better, they never have to know you didn't like their
favorite recipe.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Fetteroll
on 6/13/04 8:21 PM, Sherri-Lee Pressman at s-lp@... wrote:
But real examples of things you're having problems with in your life are
better for discussion than speculation about made up examples. That's
because answers don't lie in what's happening but in why it's happening.
Why would a child refuse to help her parents out by giving some of her time?
The answer depends on why she's refusing.
The advice given isn't rules for unschooling. It's to help parents to
understand or to help parents who already feel that some problems they're
having have their roots in how they're relating to their kids. If you aren't
having problems, if you feel what you're doing is working fine, then there's
no point in discussing it.
Joyce
> My point in my question was what if it was something that both parents HAD toThen it gets done.
> do together, which does happen sometimes.
But real examples of things you're having problems with in your life are
better for discussion than speculation about made up examples. That's
because answers don't lie in what's happening but in why it's happening.
Why would a child refuse to help her parents out by giving some of her time?
The answer depends on why she's refusing.
The advice given isn't rules for unschooling. It's to help parents to
understand or to help parents who already feel that some problems they're
having have their roots in how they're relating to their kids. If you aren't
having problems, if you feel what you're doing is working fine, then there's
no point in discussing it.
Joyce
Valerie
> Hi, Sherri,****** Joan, the way you problem solve is how we did it and most of
>
> Just wanted to chime in with a few thoughts on this part.
> Joan
> Mom to Aline 5.7 and Nicky 3.4
the time it worked out just as you described. Thank you for sharing.
love, Valerie
Valerie
lol.. did I just type that?
> I loved your description of the whole creative problem solvingprocess,
> Joan. Thanks for taking the time to write out the details - that's
> where the important information really is!
>
> -pam
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
Sherri-Lee Pressman
Oh this came out bad and so you can't tell what I said and what I was responding too... sorry folks...
Sherri-lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
Sherri-lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Sherri-Lee Pressman
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
Hi there,
Should the child not be able to do what she wants because of the parent's
wishes?
I think the reality is that sometimes someone has to do something they don't want to, or miss out on something they want, simply because there are other people in the family.
The goal isn't one person getting their way at the expense of the other. The
goal is trying to find a solution that works for everyone.
I agree, but sometimes it just doesn't happen that way. Can you say that you are able to accomodate every person in your family on every given day?
If a child is confident that the parent is working to help her get what she
wants, it won't feel like she's losing the battle if there are times when
it's more convenient for one person to have to give up what they want so
another person can get what they want.
I agree with this, I think we just go about it in different ways.
I know it seems like we're always giving them what they want, but that
doesn't count! ;-) For instance, if a friend is always giving up her
peaceful Saturday afternoons without saying a word about it to help us do
some charity work, we're going to assume the friend is helping because she
wants to, not because she's making sacrifices to give us what we want.
The "friend" being an adult has the responsibility to say what they are feeling and to not do things that they aren't wanting to do especially if they are feeling like they are *sacrificing*. It isn't the job of the other person to guess what they are feeling. So if I put off my things to do something of hers, I let her know. I say "well I can see you really want to go to the park, so I can put off these errands till tomorrow, so lets go". But if I am 5 minutes away from a client coming then there is no way I can do it. Not everything can be put off for a trip to the park.
So when we "give in" to them, children assume we're doing what we want.
They do if we don't communicate with them.
It's those times when our wants and needs clash and kids see us willingly
making it a high priority to work out a way for us both to get our needs met
that gains kids' confidence that what the kids want is just as important to
us as what we want.
I agree. That doesn't mean the kids get to do everything they want to at the expense of everyone else. Or that the adults get to do everything they want at the expense of the kids.
The way to encourage children to give is by giving not by taking from them!
Again, I agree.
If we set up the situation between us where one side needs to lose for the
other to win, kids will treat it as a battle. About the only tool they have
is to dig in their heels and hold onto the territory they have, even when
it's not territory that they feel strongly about. They know they often lose
because they're weaker and parents can just take whatever they want, so they
need to hold onto any territory they possibly can. So if they're asked to
give up an afternoon so mom and dad can shop, they'll draw the line and
refuse. Which leaves us the only option of making them go.
Why do you assume it is a win/lose situation in my home? I try to make it win/win for all of us. I spent a half an hour in the rain at an outdoor Barney concert today for goodness sake, that sure wasn't because I wanted to be there or didn't have 50 other things I could be doing. But it went on the calendar weeks ago as a commitment we made to do today, after our midwives appointment. So we all got things done. Win/win. No one complained or sacrificed more than the other.
It helps to see what the world looks like from a child's point of view so we
can get to a mental place where we don't resent helping a child who has so
little power in the world. We brought them into the world. And part of the
package deal is that we give up a lot of what we have to help them get what
they want. If you were dragged around here and there to boring places for
hours at a time just because your husband wanted to go and he was bigger and
stronger and could make you, it would be a big factor eating away at your
relationship.
Give up a lot yes, not everything. I seek balance. I do not drag my child around to boring places for hours at a time just because I want to go there and I am bigger and can make her. I really resent that implication to be honest.
And isnt' the child learning that they're second class citizens whenever
their needs conflict with the parents needs and the parents decide they
don't want to inconvenience themselves to help everyone get what they want?
Depending on how it is handled. Seems to be a lot of assumptions going on to be honest. They do not have to learn they are second class citizens, to do things that other want. They also do not have to learn that the world revolves around them and they get to do only what they want to. Again, when we have conflicting needs, the parents don't always get what they want and don't always decide by inconvenience to them. I am sure you have met people like that, but nothing I said in my post indicated that I was that kind of parent. So why are you assuming it? If I don't do it your way then I must be neglecting my child's needs and dragging them around without a thought to their needs? Hogwash. There is a happy medium.
It's only compromise when everyone has equal power and equal say. Usually
when parents talk about "compromise" it means kids get their way when it's
convenient for parents and parents get their way when it's not.
I don't agree with your definition of compromise. Often there are compromises when there is very unequal power and say. And sometimes there are exceptions to the rule.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Sherri-Lee
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Sherri-Lee Pressman
Hi Joyce,
This is a really good point, thank you for bringing it up. It makes sense to me, "the reason a child isn't willing to do what we might need to isn't the problem the thing to consider is WHY they aren't wanting to" Is that a fair paraphrase?
I guess I brought up a hypothetical simply because I always am trying to get ahead of an issue and be prepared for a possible reaction that might come so that I can try to deal with it better than I might unprepared. I see now though that doing so doesn't take into account the WHY but just the WHAT.
Thank you for this, it makes sense to me,
Sherri-lee
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This is a really good point, thank you for bringing it up. It makes sense to me, "the reason a child isn't willing to do what we might need to isn't the problem the thing to consider is WHY they aren't wanting to" Is that a fair paraphrase?
I guess I brought up a hypothetical simply because I always am trying to get ahead of an issue and be prepared for a possible reaction that might come so that I can try to deal with it better than I might unprepared. I see now though that doing so doesn't take into account the WHY but just the WHAT.
Thank you for this, it makes sense to me,
Sherri-lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, June 14, 2004 2:15 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
on 6/13/04 8:21 PM, Sherri-Lee Pressman at s-lp@... wrote:
> My point in my question was what if it was something that both parents HAD to
> do together, which does happen sometimes.
Then it gets done.
But real examples of things you're having problems with in your life are
better for discussion than speculation about made up examples. That's
because answers don't lie in what's happening but in why it's happening.
Why would a child refuse to help her parents out by giving some of her time?
The answer depends on why she's refusing.
The advice given isn't rules for unschooling. It's to help parents to
understand or to help parents who already feel that some problems they're
having have their roots in how they're relating to their kids. If you aren't
having problems, if you feel what you're doing is working fine, then there's
no point in discussing it.
Joyce
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Sherri-Lee Pressman
You are right, Ren, thanks for the reminder and I apologise if my emotional response offended anyone.
Sherri-Lee
Looking for safe and natural health products?
http://www.aloeessence.com
Sherri-Lee
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http://www.aloeessence.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Ren Allen
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 9:19 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] intro. LONG
"I am sure you have met people like that, but nothing I
said in my post indicated that I was that kind of parent. So why are
you
assuming it? If I don't do it your way then I must be neglecting my
child's
needs and dragging them around without a thought to their needs?
Hogwash. There
is a happy medium."
Sherri,
People can only respond to what you post, they only have your words
to go on. Nobody is assuming anything...this is a discussion of
ideas and philosophy, not about any person.
As the guidelines state, if you don't want something discussed,
don't post about that topic, because it will get discussed here.
It's good to assume that everyone is offering up the best advice in
their arsenal, take what you like and leave the rest, but don't turn
it into something personal. Stick to discussing the ideas presented
please.
Thanks,
Ren
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