kay alina

And now for the BEST part - this morning I was in the kitchen
washing dishes, kids happily playing in the living room, I go in to
check on them and 5yo has completely ripped the screen door (the
very same screen door that my husband just fixed about a month ago).
Why did he rip the screen door? Because he wanted the water to come
in (it's raining here today). Daddy is probably going to be very mad
about this, what are we going to do? Daddy can't find me if I hide
under my bed. You can't hide under your bed forever.

Next time have your 5yo help you with the dishes. It keeps chaos at bay and
it is fun to do dishes with young ones. They feel they are contributing and
no screens need to be replaced.
Kay

kay alina

When he started to speak to Keegan, Keegan ducked away and
when he did this the neighbor held him by the arm and didn't let go.
Before I could say anything Keegan stood up and blew the biggest
raspberry right in his face

I think Keegan deserves an ice cream sundae. How dare that man grab him for
any reason. He deserved a raspberry at the very least. I had someone grab
my arm like that as an adult and attempt to detain me. We were in a very
crowded social situation and I literally could not get away. I finally said
I had to pee NOW! I am still enraged by brute force. I am so grateful to
hear of a child's power in getting away from a violent adult. Spit, bite,
hit do whatever you have to do to get away. Bravo Keegan! Bravo momma for
not making him apologize for honoring his own body.
Kay

G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan

Thank you Kay and thanks to all the others who replied with encouraging
words. All of my instincts said good that will teach you to grab him. He
won't grab him again I can guarantee it. I realized while reading the posts
that I wasn't really having doubts about whether or not I was doing the
wrong thing, but I was hearing my mother in my subconscious saying: " How
dare that child spit in an adults face, how rude he should apologize" thank
goodness I didn't give in to that....

AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: kay alina [mailto:angelsguard@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 10:08 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Digest Number 27


When he started to speak to Keegan, Keegan ducked away and
when he did this the neighbor held him by the arm and didn't let go.
Before I could say anything Keegan stood up and blew the biggest
raspberry right in his face

I think Keegan deserves an ice cream sundae. How dare that man grab him
for
any reason. He deserved a raspberry at the very least. I had someone
grab
my arm like that as an adult and attempt to detain me. We were in a very
crowded social situation and I literally could not get away. I finally
said
I had to pee NOW! I am still enraged by brute force. I am so grateful to
hear of a child's power in getting away from a violent adult. Spit, bite,
hit do whatever you have to do to get away. Bravo Keegan! Bravo momma
for
not making him apologize for honoring his own body.
Kay


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT





----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robyn Coburn

<<<And now for the BEST part - this morning I was in the kitchen
washing dishes, kids happily playing in the living room, I go in to
check on them and 5yo has completely ripped the screen door (the
very same screen door that my husband just fixed about a month ago).
Why did he rip the screen door? Because he wanted the water to come
in (it's raining here today). Daddy is probably going to be very mad
about this, what are we going to do? Daddy can't find me if I hide
under my bed. You can't hide under your bed forever.>>>

<<<Next time have your 5yo help you with the dishes. It keeps chaos at bay
and it is fun to do dishes with young ones. They feel they are contributing
and no screens need to be replaced.>>>>

I'm afraid this suggestion doesn't sit very well with me - not the dishes
part, the controlling part. In unschooling it's not really about "having"
the children do something that they may not wish to. Note that in this
instance "having" him come away to the kitchen would have meant interrupting
his happy playing.
What is supposed to happen next time it starts raining, and he starts
looking at the door with an anticipatory gleam? If it is anything contrived
it will probably be very obvious to this intelligent 5yo that he is being
diverted and mistrusted.

Jayn (4.5) also adores water, pouring water sometimes inappropriately, and
running out into the rain. Since she has more than once been overcome by her
need to pour water, the biggest development here has been her growing
ability to stop herself from doing it into the bed from a drinking bottle,
and go pour water in the bathroom instead. Initially asking her to go to the
bathroom, and if she couldn't do that at least to use the floor instead of
the bed, was my first suggestion to her. Showing her what a pain in the neck
it is to have to change all the sheets down to the mattress cover, and point
a loud hair dryer onto the mattress worked a lot better than getting angry.
Not getting angry has been my struggle in this situation, and I'm happy to
say I have overcome my anger with just choosing to understand, and *express*
my understanding, that for some reason she sometimes just NEEDS to pour
water out.

Jayn is really proud of herself for gaining this much self-control -
stopping and running to the bathroom with her container. What would happen
if the bathroom door were locked? I don't know.

I think it might be better to somehow help him remember he can ask you for
assistance - such as if he finds a door latched when he wants to go outside.
One of us goes outside with Jayn whenever she wants to be in the rain. She
knows she can ask for me to open the screen door for her if it is closed.

An alternative, since one of your concerns is baby proofing, could be a gate
that is low enough for him to climb over, but sturdy enough to keep in the
baby.

As to the angry father, when Jayn has done something that might upset Daddy,
I try to tell him about it without her around, so he can get his grumps or
pissiness out with me, and then calm down before they interact. He is almost
never angry at her. If he is angry with me in her presence, it also upsets
her a lot. Resolving our adult differences of opinion is the biggest issue
in our home for me. Fortunately they are almost never disagreements to do
with parenting or unschooling - just his erroneous notions of who's boss. ;)

Robyn L. Coburn

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.692 / Virus Database: 453 - Release Date: 5/28/2004

mom2ckm

--- In [email protected], "kay alina" > Next time
have your 5yo help you with the dishes. It keeps chaos at bay and
> it is fun to do dishes with young ones. They feel they are
contributing and
> no screens need to be replaced.
> Kay

Thanks for the advice Kay, I do like to have the kids come "help" me
with whatever I'm working on, or sit with me in the computer room
when I'm checking email, then I get to spend a little one-on-one
time with them and they likes that. But what do I do in the times
when I am putting the baby down for a nap and I need all the other
kids to sit quietly for just 5 minutes? Or when I ask Kenyon to come
wash dishes with me and he doesn't want to?

Sure, I could strap the kid to my leg and then I would know exactly
what he was doing, but that would be horrible for both of us! I want
him to have his freedom and independence, but I am having a real
problem with the impulsive, destructive, disruptive behavior (there
are those words again!) I keep thinking there must be a way to allow
him to be who he is but at the same time communicate to him that it
isn't okay to destroy things that belong to other people, or that
it's really hard to get the baby down for a nap and you just can't
stand on the stairs and yell or you'll wake him up, etc. etc. I try
and try to "express my comfort levels" to him but he just doesn't
seem to understand yet. I know he's only 5 years old and that as he
matures he will understand better. I have lived through this to some
degree already with my 8yo, so I know there is a light at the end of
the tunnel, but right now I am just feeling overwhelmed by the whole
thing.

Joan, I really enjoyed your "One small victory" and I will remember
your story next time something gets broken :o)

Thanks to everyone on this list who offers encouragement and advice,
It really helps to know that I am not alone and that you all are
willing to share your experiences and send me cyber hugs when I need
them.

:o) Sarah

mom2ckm

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> <<<Next time have your 5yo help you with the dishes. It keeps
chaos at bay
> and it is fun to do dishes with young ones. They feel they are
contributing
> and no screens need to be replaced.>>>>
>
> I'm afraid this suggestion doesn't sit very well with me - not the
dishes
> part, the controlling part. In unschooling it's not really
about "having"
> the children do something that they may not wish to. Note that in
this
> instance "having" him come away to the kitchen would have meant
interrupting
> his happy playing.
> What is supposed to happen next time it starts raining, and he
starts
> looking at the door with an anticipatory gleam? If it is anything
contrived
> it will probably be very obvious to this intelligent 5yo that he
is being
> diverted and mistrusted.

Amen! That's exactly my dilemma. He was playing happily with the
other kids when I left the room. But then he decided he wanted to go
out and the door was latched, so he just ripped the screen and went
through. I do not think he deliberately wrecked the screen, he just
wanted out.

> I think it might be better to somehow help him remember he can ask
you for
> assistance - such as if he finds a door latched when he wants to
go outside.

Yes, that's what I've been trying to do with all my kids. If there's
something they want all they have to do is ask and I will do my best
to help them out. Sometimes I do have to say no because the thing
they ask for isn't an option right now (for instance, if we were
getting ready to leave the house we can't start watching a 2 hour
movie). But because we were controlling their every move for so
long, they are still in the mindset of, "If I ask Mom she'll say no,
so I'll just go ahead and do it anyway and suffer the punishment
later." We're all still getting used to this "YES" thing <g>.

> As to the angry father, when Jayn has done something that might
upset Daddy,
> I try to tell him about it without her around, so he can get his
grumps or
> pissiness out with me, and then calm down before they interact.

Yup, this is what I try to do too. My husband was angry about the
soaked carpet and the ripped screen, and when he talked to Kenyon
about what happened it was very obvious from his tone of voice that
he was angry, but there was no spanking and no yelling, so that's an
improvement :o)

~Sarah

pam sorooshian

On Jun 11, 2004, at 6:22 AM, mom2ckm wrote:

> I try and try to "express my comfort levels" to him but he just
> doesn't
> seem to understand yet.

Are you clear when you do this? I have heard sweet nice moms who are so
wishy-washy and talk so much and get so wrapped up in talking about
things like "comfort levels," that the kids stop listening and never
get the message.

Do you every simply say, "I'm going to put the baby down now and I want
you to be absolutely quiet for 5 minutes. How do you think you can do
that?" Maybe he'll want to set the kitchen timer...or watch a video or
tv program.

But - "talking about comfort levels" kind of sets off a little buzzer
in my head that says you may be talking too much and not being clear
about what you want from him.

I had my first daughter with me, visiting relatives in Germany. There
was a basket of newspapers on the floor and she pulled some out and
started tearing them into strips - making a mess and destroying the
newspapers. I went over and picked her up and said, "Hang on - somebody
might want to read these papers and they won't be able to do that if
they're torn up. Let's see if we can find something else to do." An
older woman came over and pulled out some of the newspapers and handed
them to my daughter. (I couldn't read the papers - they were in German
- but it was obviously mostly the advertising sections.)

The basket with the 'not-to-be-torn" papers sat right there on the
floor where it had been, while she happily shredded the papers she'd
been given. THEN she was done - and there was a mess - and the same
older woman brought out a cloth grocery bag and knelt down and started
putting the pieces into the bag. I started to help and so did my
daughter. We cleaned up all the pieces we could, but there were lots of
little bitsy pieces, and the woman brought out a little hand vacuum.
She started to vacuum and then handed the vacuum to my daughter who
finished the job.

The woman spoke no English, we didn't speak German. Did my daughter get
the message? Yep. It isn't THAT complicated.

-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.

mom2ckm

Hi Pam,

I don't use the phrase "comfort levels" with my kids, I got that
from Robyn's wonderful post:

"It means that the parents get to own and express their own varying
comfort levels, without the rigid concept of setting limits".

What I am trying to do is to get the kids to understand that most of
the time they are free to choose any activity they want to do, but
sometimes they just can't do what they want to do because a) it
interferes with someone else's activity, b) it's unsafe, c) it's
inconvenient for us to do that activity right this minute.

Whenever I have to say "no" to an activity I always explain why we
can't do that particular thing, and then we work together to come up
with an alternative. And when I ask them to do something like be
quiet for a few minutes while I put the baby to bed, I make sure to
explain the situation and make suggestions for an appropriate
(quiet) activity. Usually my 8yo will stick to the quiet activity,
and I don't worry much about my 2yo as long as she's in a baby-
proofed space, but lately my 5yo just waits for the times when I am
preoccupied with something else and all heck breaks loose!

As I said in another post, I am sure his "heck"-raising is just a
reaction to hearing "no" all the time, and now that I am
saying "yes" more the lying and sneaky behavior will fade away. I
just have to be p-a-t-i-e-n-t!

~Sarah

P. S. I loved your story about your daughter and the newspapers :o)

--- In [email protected], pam sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@m...> wrote:
>
> On Jun 11, 2004, at 6:22 AM, mom2ckm wrote:
>
> > I try and try to "express my comfort levels" to him but he
just
> > doesn't
> > seem to understand yet.
>
> Are you clear when you do this? I have heard sweet nice moms who
are so
> wishy-washy and talk so much and get so wrapped up in talking
about
> things like "comfort levels," that the kids stop listening and
never
> get the message.