A somewhat reluctant post
scrapgal
I have a serious question. What happens when unschooling isn't
working for mom? When we first started this venture I kept waiting
for some sort of rhythm to form. A groove. A pattern. But what I
am finding is actually what feels like chaos. There are days that I
feel that I am drowning in the chaos. I've found myself on more
than one day hiding in my bedroom behind a book just so I can ignore
the chaos. And there is growing apathy. No one cares that the
bathroom is a mess or that there is crap all over the floor. I'm
sick of walking into a room that I have just cleaned to find that it
is now filled with empty food wrappers, crumbs, clothes, and toys.
It doesn't bother them at all that it is like that either. And
asking them to help is like pulling hen's teeth.
This has all sort of come to a boiling point while dealing with the
hurricane this week. No one wanted to help prepare, find dirty
clothes to wash, pack in case we evacuated, tidy the living room for
the people who were sheltering with us, or even get out of said
living room so I could clean it. Now looking at the growing
mountain of debris that needs to be cleaned from the yard, the new
pile of laundry, the filthy floors from mud and grime being tracked
in, the pile of dishes still waiting to be done as soon as the boil
order is lifted, they are much more content to just sit in the house
and watch television. The 3 days we were without power were filled
with whining and complaining and wishing that the television was
working. Every suggestion that I brought up to entertain ourselves
was shot down with "that's boring, not now, that's lame, no way."
Yet when I asked for suggestions it was always things like, "Well,
couldn't you go to the store and buy a battery operated television"
or "Can't we drive over to Uncle D's house where he has power so we
can watch his television and get on the internet?"
I'm tired. I'm tired of doing all the laundry, all the dishes, all
the cooking, all the cleaning when I have children who are old
enough and capable enough to help (almost 13, almost 10 and 7). I
gave up doling out chores over a year ago and now only ask when I
truly need help like when my hands are full and I need the door
open. Sometimes I stand at the door getting angrier and angrier
because no one is willing to walk 10 feet to open a door for me. To
get off their butts and pull themselves away from what they are
doing for 5 seconds to open a door for someone whose hands are full
of laundry or groceries.
I'm essentially a single parent. My ex-husband lives with us and
there are many days when he leaves at 6 am and doesn't come home
until 10 pm. He's mostly a renter. So there is no "honey will you
do ________" for me. He's not even here to help with post hurricane
clean up because of the nature of his job.
I seek to find those "shining moments of unschooling" and they seem
so few and far between or are clouded over with the pessimism,
apathy and selfishness that seems to be abounding in this house. Is
it so wrong for mom to have her needs met as well? Is there someway
to create order in unschooling? I can't deal with this chaos much
longer and even had the very bad thought that if my kids were in
public school at least I could have a clean house a few hours a day
without it meaning me working the entire time they are awake. Is
unschooling really healthy for a family when mom is cowering in a
corner in her room wishing that the world would just freeze for 15
minutes?
Michelle
working for mom? When we first started this venture I kept waiting
for some sort of rhythm to form. A groove. A pattern. But what I
am finding is actually what feels like chaos. There are days that I
feel that I am drowning in the chaos. I've found myself on more
than one day hiding in my bedroom behind a book just so I can ignore
the chaos. And there is growing apathy. No one cares that the
bathroom is a mess or that there is crap all over the floor. I'm
sick of walking into a room that I have just cleaned to find that it
is now filled with empty food wrappers, crumbs, clothes, and toys.
It doesn't bother them at all that it is like that either. And
asking them to help is like pulling hen's teeth.
This has all sort of come to a boiling point while dealing with the
hurricane this week. No one wanted to help prepare, find dirty
clothes to wash, pack in case we evacuated, tidy the living room for
the people who were sheltering with us, or even get out of said
living room so I could clean it. Now looking at the growing
mountain of debris that needs to be cleaned from the yard, the new
pile of laundry, the filthy floors from mud and grime being tracked
in, the pile of dishes still waiting to be done as soon as the boil
order is lifted, they are much more content to just sit in the house
and watch television. The 3 days we were without power were filled
with whining and complaining and wishing that the television was
working. Every suggestion that I brought up to entertain ourselves
was shot down with "that's boring, not now, that's lame, no way."
Yet when I asked for suggestions it was always things like, "Well,
couldn't you go to the store and buy a battery operated television"
or "Can't we drive over to Uncle D's house where he has power so we
can watch his television and get on the internet?"
I'm tired. I'm tired of doing all the laundry, all the dishes, all
the cooking, all the cleaning when I have children who are old
enough and capable enough to help (almost 13, almost 10 and 7). I
gave up doling out chores over a year ago and now only ask when I
truly need help like when my hands are full and I need the door
open. Sometimes I stand at the door getting angrier and angrier
because no one is willing to walk 10 feet to open a door for me. To
get off their butts and pull themselves away from what they are
doing for 5 seconds to open a door for someone whose hands are full
of laundry or groceries.
I'm essentially a single parent. My ex-husband lives with us and
there are many days when he leaves at 6 am and doesn't come home
until 10 pm. He's mostly a renter. So there is no "honey will you
do ________" for me. He's not even here to help with post hurricane
clean up because of the nature of his job.
I seek to find those "shining moments of unschooling" and they seem
so few and far between or are clouded over with the pessimism,
apathy and selfishness that seems to be abounding in this house. Is
it so wrong for mom to have her needs met as well? Is there someway
to create order in unschooling? I can't deal with this chaos much
longer and even had the very bad thought that if my kids were in
public school at least I could have a clean house a few hours a day
without it meaning me working the entire time they are awake. Is
unschooling really healthy for a family when mom is cowering in a
corner in her room wishing that the world would just freeze for 15
minutes?
Michelle
Julie-TX
Gosh I am so sorry you are having a rough time, I know
the hurricane must have made your stress level even
higher.
Sounds as if yhou are being taken advantage of. I am
very new to unschooling, but we do have "house
policies" and everyone has chores and pitches in. Yes
we have clutter but it is clean under the clutter.
For Me, unschooling has been a relief.
I wish I had some words of wisdom for you, I am kind
of struggling myself with where to have boundaries for
Stuart.
Julie
--- scrapgal <pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
the hurricane must have made your stress level even
higher.
Sounds as if yhou are being taken advantage of. I am
very new to unschooling, but we do have "house
policies" and everyone has chores and pitches in. Yes
we have clutter but it is clean under the clutter.
For Me, unschooling has been a relief.
I wish I had some words of wisdom for you, I am kind
of struggling myself with where to have boundaries for
Stuart.
Julie
--- scrapgal <pamperedmichelle@...> wrote:
> I have a serious question. What happens whenwww.insulinisnotacure.com Juvenile Diabetes Message Board
> unschooling isn't
> working for mom? When we first started this venture
> I kept waiting
> for some sort of rhythm to form. A groove. A
> pattern. But what I
> am finding is actually what feels like chaos. There
> are days that I
> feel that I am drowning in the chaos. I've found
> myself on more
> than one day hiding in my bedroom behind a book just
> so I can ignore
> the chaos. And there is growing apathy. No one
> cares that the
> bathroom is a mess or that there is crap all over
> the floor. I'm
> sick of walking into a room that I have just cleaned
> to find that it
> is now filled with empty food wrappers, crumbs,
> clothes, and toys.
> It doesn't bother them at all that it is like that
> either. And
> asking them to help is like pulling hen's teeth.
>
> This has all sort of come to a boiling point while
> dealing with the
> hurricane this week. No one wanted to help prepare,
> find dirty
> clothes to wash, pack in case we evacuated, tidy the
> living room for
> the people who were sheltering with us, or even get
> out of said
> living room so I could clean it. Now looking at the
> growing
> mountain of debris that needs to be cleaned from the
> yard, the new
> pile of laundry, the filthy floors from mud and
> grime being tracked
> in, the pile of dishes still waiting to be done as
> soon as the boil
> order is lifted, they are much more content to just
> sit in the house
> and watch television. The 3 days we were without
> power were filled
> with whining and complaining and wishing that the
> television was
> working. Every suggestion that I brought up to
> entertain ourselves
> was shot down with "that's boring, not now, that's
> lame, no way."
> Yet when I asked for suggestions it was always
> things like, "Well,
> couldn't you go to the store and buy a battery
> operated television"
> or "Can't we drive over to Uncle D's house where he
> has power so we
> can watch his television and get on the internet?"
>
> I'm tired. I'm tired of doing all the laundry, all
> the dishes, all
> the cooking, all the cleaning when I have children
> who are old
> enough and capable enough to help (almost 13, almost
> 10 and 7). I
> gave up doling out chores over a year ago and now
> only ask when I
> truly need help like when my hands are full and I
> need the door
> open. Sometimes I stand at the door getting angrier
> and angrier
> because no one is willing to walk 10 feet to open a
> door for me. To
> get off their butts and pull themselves away from
> what they are
> doing for 5 seconds to open a door for someone whose
> hands are full
> of laundry or groceries.
>
> I'm essentially a single parent. My ex-husband
> lives with us and
> there are many days when he leaves at 6 am and
> doesn't come home
> until 10 pm. He's mostly a renter. So there is no
> "honey will you
> do ________" for me. He's not even here to help
> with post hurricane
> clean up because of the nature of his job.
>
> I seek to find those "shining moments of
> unschooling" and they seem
> so few and far between or are clouded over with the
> pessimism,
> apathy and selfishness that seems to be abounding in
> this house. Is
> it so wrong for mom to have her needs met as well?
> Is there someway
> to create order in unschooling? I can't deal with
> this chaos much
> longer and even had the very bad thought that if my
> kids were in
> public school at least I could have a clean house a
> few hours a day
> without it meaning me working the entire time they
> are awake. Is
> unschooling really healthy for a family when mom is
> cowering in a
> corner in her room wishing that the world would just
> freeze for 15
> minutes?
>
> Michelle
>
>
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
Jen A
Michelle (((((hugs)))))
I'm sure you will get some great advice from some of the more seasoned
unschoolers with older kids (mine are 5 and 2) but this post made me
think of what Sandra and others sometimes write about on Unschooling
Discussion. I think it was Joyce maybe who first said this:
"it's not the unschooling, it's the _________________" (fill in the blank)
It sounds like you have a pretty stressful living situation. It also
sounds like your own needs/interests are not being attended to. See what
you can fill the blank with and ponder that for a bit while you wait for
other responses.
Hope this helps a little,
Jenny
scrapgal wrote:
I'm sure you will get some great advice from some of the more seasoned
unschoolers with older kids (mine are 5 and 2) but this post made me
think of what Sandra and others sometimes write about on Unschooling
Discussion. I think it was Joyce maybe who first said this:
"it's not the unschooling, it's the _________________" (fill in the blank)
It sounds like you have a pretty stressful living situation. It also
sounds like your own needs/interests are not being attended to. See what
you can fill the blank with and ponder that for a bit while you wait for
other responses.
Hope this helps a little,
Jenny
scrapgal wrote:
> I have a serious question. What happens when unschooling isn't
> working for mom?
coolcrew
Hi Michelle
My unschooled kids are 15, 14, 13,12,11 and 6 year old twins. They have realised that it is in everyone's best interest to clean up after themselves They don't always do it but when it is not done I point it out. I refuse to be a maid. I will help along with them but that is all. I see that them learning to clean up and tidy is part of life skills. The youngest two do nothing but they have not got to that stage yet. I have boxes, storage and bins available in every room to put away toys, craft stuff, books and rubbish. I don't make them do it but they see the benefit of knowing where their stuf is and not tripping over it. Same on an evening. I feel me an dh needs some space. I asked them what they thought to this and they all decided they would read, watch T.V or play on the computer upstairs from about 8 or 9 ish. It is not a rule - if they want to stay down they can but generally they go up and play.I don't actually think your problem is unschooling it is your kids attitudes. They would have been like that even if in school. That is what you need to address. How do your kids feel about their dad been a renter now in your home? Are they upset by this? Just a few thoughts.
((hugs))Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My unschooled kids are 15, 14, 13,12,11 and 6 year old twins. They have realised that it is in everyone's best interest to clean up after themselves They don't always do it but when it is not done I point it out. I refuse to be a maid. I will help along with them but that is all. I see that them learning to clean up and tidy is part of life skills. The youngest two do nothing but they have not got to that stage yet. I have boxes, storage and bins available in every room to put away toys, craft stuff, books and rubbish. I don't make them do it but they see the benefit of knowing where their stuf is and not tripping over it. Same on an evening. I feel me an dh needs some space. I asked them what they thought to this and they all decided they would read, watch T.V or play on the computer upstairs from about 8 or 9 ish. It is not a rule - if they want to stay down they can but generally they go up and play.I don't actually think your problem is unschooling it is your kids attitudes. They would have been like that even if in school. That is what you need to address. How do your kids feel about their dad been a renter now in your home? Are they upset by this? Just a few thoughts.
((hugs))Ruth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
waltonc32927
Hi Michelle,
I write to you this morning with dirty dishes at my side and sand under
my feet, the computer room is my teenaged unschoolers laboratory. I
have to work today, so I will leave a list of chores that he must
finish...no questions asked. My suggestion for you is to do the same,
not go to work, but explain to them that you need some quiet time
because of all the mess and chaos, leave a list for each kid and let
them work together to help you out. For me, my children are more apt
to do work around the house when I give them specific tasks and get out
of their way. So take a walk, browse somewhere, drive around aimlessly
if you have to. Take a break. It sure sounds like you deserve it.
Chris
--- In [email protected], "scrapgal"
<pamperedmichelle@g...> wrote:
I write to you this morning with dirty dishes at my side and sand under
my feet, the computer room is my teenaged unschoolers laboratory. I
have to work today, so I will leave a list of chores that he must
finish...no questions asked. My suggestion for you is to do the same,
not go to work, but explain to them that you need some quiet time
because of all the mess and chaos, leave a list for each kid and let
them work together to help you out. For me, my children are more apt
to do work around the house when I give them specific tasks and get out
of their way. So take a walk, browse somewhere, drive around aimlessly
if you have to. Take a break. It sure sounds like you deserve it.
Chris
--- In [email protected], "scrapgal"
<pamperedmichelle@g...> wrote:
> I have a serious question. What happens when unschooling isn't
> working for mom?
Cathy
Hi, Michelle,
From my experience, I would say that unschooling doesn't have to be chaos. Some children do better with a little structure. I'm not saying that they have to do math from 8-9, but you could set goals for them to do each day. This, of course, can include chores. For instance, you could say that A,B,C gets done before lunch. Or you could say that X,Y,Z gets done before free time.
One day I was so distressed, I stormed out and left my chore reluctant 13 and 14 year olds home. I was tired of their complaining about helping out. I told them to have the house cleaned before I got back or the computer was getting packed up. And they did! Of course, I called before I came home to check on them (and to make sure it was done :)
Either find something to motivate them or make it mandatory. Find what motivates them and make that their goal. First they have to get X done. Or just make it that they have to do X no matter what.
There is no reason for you to be the maid. Your children are old enough to clean up after themselves. Unschooling does not mean no rules either. For instance, perhaps there is no eating out of the kitchen.
I would try adding a little more structure before hauling them back to public school. It might not take a lot and it may work.
~Cathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From my experience, I would say that unschooling doesn't have to be chaos. Some children do better with a little structure. I'm not saying that they have to do math from 8-9, but you could set goals for them to do each day. This, of course, can include chores. For instance, you could say that A,B,C gets done before lunch. Or you could say that X,Y,Z gets done before free time.
One day I was so distressed, I stormed out and left my chore reluctant 13 and 14 year olds home. I was tired of their complaining about helping out. I told them to have the house cleaned before I got back or the computer was getting packed up. And they did! Of course, I called before I came home to check on them (and to make sure it was done :)
Either find something to motivate them or make it mandatory. Find what motivates them and make that their goal. First they have to get X done. Or just make it that they have to do X no matter what.
There is no reason for you to be the maid. Your children are old enough to clean up after themselves. Unschooling does not mean no rules either. For instance, perhaps there is no eating out of the kitchen.
I would try adding a little more structure before hauling them back to public school. It might not take a lot and it may work.
~Cathy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sherry Upson
Michelle,
I am "unschooling" this summer for the first time. I am not a seasoned expert like some of the folks on here, but would like to offer some ideas.
It sounds to me like the problem isn't the unschooling but the structure. I have found in my own life that disorderly patterns and bad habits form easily. I have ADD and suffer from depression / grief. It is much harder (it will take about a month) to form positive patterns. It will take a month of your being the General of your little Army for them to fall in line. What works in the military (I am an AF Veteran married to an active duty Army Soldier - currently in Baghdad for a year) is cracking down hard at first. Make it far stricter than it needs to be. You can always let up a bit later but it is very hard to start lenient and then get stricter. Human nature doesn't work that way.
I have recently started cracking down and pushing patterns. Things are starting to take shape. No more eating or drinking in the living room. You want to eat? Eat at the table. You don't want to eat what I fixed? Fine. You don't eat (trust me, they will not starve by missing an occasional meal). Our new saying around here is "Mom is not a short-order cook." You want to play video games? Here's the timer. You get 30 min a day. You choose when. You want lunch? Sorry, no lunch until the toys are picked up.
We do allowances - one dollar per year of age. If you do not do your expected household responsibilities (not chores), you lose money (conversely, you go above and beyond, you gain money).
Maybe sitting down with the kids and explaining in a calm tone of voice that you are all in this together. Have a list ready... Who wants to wash dishes? No one? OK, so we'll all take turns - one person each day and mark it on a calendar. Anyone want to do the vacuuming? No? OK, the oldest does this. Dusting? No? Just assign if no one volunteers. Tell them that you will reassess in a week and do some chore swapping if necessary. Spend a few minutes and write down and post - for each child - a daily list of what exactly is expected. If they want something, see if their list is completed first. It goes without saying, no TV until their beds are made and teeth are brushed. If you can't walk through their room from the mess, no going out with friends or whatever. Kids crave routine. Kids crave structure. Kids crave boundaries. They will push and push as far as they can to see just where the boundary is. When I acted like a martyr, nothing happened. When I became General Mommy, this place started to take shape. It takes a LOT of concentrated effort on my part, too. I sort mail over the trashcan. I shred credit card offers immediately. I put the bills in one place. Dishes are done before I get to go to bed (I am the only one old enough to trust with those). I am not a naturally organized person. But, knowing and honestly facing my weaknesses and making the decision to set a good example for my family helps, as does constant prayer!
Do take some time for yourself. Set the timer and put it outside of your bedroom door. Tell the kids they are not to interrupt you before the timer goes off unless they are bleeding or on fire! As Moms, we tend to give and give and give until our well is dry. When there is no one there to refill it for us, we must do it for ourselves or we will not be able to help those most important to us.
Please know that I am not trying to preach (although I am really good at lectures and guilt trips - another thing I'm working on...) but I see a lot of me in your post. I am currently on anti-depressants and when I remember to take them like I should life is much better and I have the ability to stay strong.
I will be praying for you as you work to get things under control. It's not easy, but you CAN do it.
Sherry
Our Family
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am "unschooling" this summer for the first time. I am not a seasoned expert like some of the folks on here, but would like to offer some ideas.
It sounds to me like the problem isn't the unschooling but the structure. I have found in my own life that disorderly patterns and bad habits form easily. I have ADD and suffer from depression / grief. It is much harder (it will take about a month) to form positive patterns. It will take a month of your being the General of your little Army for them to fall in line. What works in the military (I am an AF Veteran married to an active duty Army Soldier - currently in Baghdad for a year) is cracking down hard at first. Make it far stricter than it needs to be. You can always let up a bit later but it is very hard to start lenient and then get stricter. Human nature doesn't work that way.
I have recently started cracking down and pushing patterns. Things are starting to take shape. No more eating or drinking in the living room. You want to eat? Eat at the table. You don't want to eat what I fixed? Fine. You don't eat (trust me, they will not starve by missing an occasional meal). Our new saying around here is "Mom is not a short-order cook." You want to play video games? Here's the timer. You get 30 min a day. You choose when. You want lunch? Sorry, no lunch until the toys are picked up.
We do allowances - one dollar per year of age. If you do not do your expected household responsibilities (not chores), you lose money (conversely, you go above and beyond, you gain money).
Maybe sitting down with the kids and explaining in a calm tone of voice that you are all in this together. Have a list ready... Who wants to wash dishes? No one? OK, so we'll all take turns - one person each day and mark it on a calendar. Anyone want to do the vacuuming? No? OK, the oldest does this. Dusting? No? Just assign if no one volunteers. Tell them that you will reassess in a week and do some chore swapping if necessary. Spend a few minutes and write down and post - for each child - a daily list of what exactly is expected. If they want something, see if their list is completed first. It goes without saying, no TV until their beds are made and teeth are brushed. If you can't walk through their room from the mess, no going out with friends or whatever. Kids crave routine. Kids crave structure. Kids crave boundaries. They will push and push as far as they can to see just where the boundary is. When I acted like a martyr, nothing happened. When I became General Mommy, this place started to take shape. It takes a LOT of concentrated effort on my part, too. I sort mail over the trashcan. I shred credit card offers immediately. I put the bills in one place. Dishes are done before I get to go to bed (I am the only one old enough to trust with those). I am not a naturally organized person. But, knowing and honestly facing my weaknesses and making the decision to set a good example for my family helps, as does constant prayer!
Do take some time for yourself. Set the timer and put it outside of your bedroom door. Tell the kids they are not to interrupt you before the timer goes off unless they are bleeding or on fire! As Moms, we tend to give and give and give until our well is dry. When there is no one there to refill it for us, we must do it for ourselves or we will not be able to help those most important to us.
Please know that I am not trying to preach (although I am really good at lectures and guilt trips - another thing I'm working on...) but I see a lot of me in your post. I am currently on anti-depressants and when I remember to take them like I should life is much better and I have the ability to stay strong.
I will be praying for you as you work to get things under control. It's not easy, but you CAN do it.
Sherry
Our Family
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
Sounds like you guys might need some structure. Unschooling doesn't have to mean unstructured.
I would suggest 3 things.
First----get out of the house. Find things your kids are interested in. What are their passions? Help them follow those. Try cool stuff. Check out SCA, 4-H, horse-back riding, pottery, dog training, whatever but help the kids get a life.
Second---you get a life. Find your passion. What have you always secretly wanted to do? Go do it. Perhaps bellydancing, karate, crochet, whatever.
Third---Have a meeting of the minds with your kids. I am not saying "lay down the law" but make yourself heard. Get input from everyone. Make a plan. Listen to feedback. Tweak things if necessary. If someone in the family is so upset by how things are that they are hiding in their room, something needs to give. If one of your kids was that upset on an ongoing basis, you would do what you could to help them feel better. Do the same for yourself.
We have 5 children. Dh travels a lot with work and is a volunteer fireman. Various kids are into gymnastics (lots of travel), shooting sports (lots of travel), breeding and raising goats, lambs and rabbits, learning to sew and crochet, etc.. I run several groups (4-H, unschooling) and study witchcraft.
The kids know that I will go way, way out on a limb to help them do what they want. If there is any way I can do for them what they want I will. I expect them to at least help straighten the house and I tell them so. I have even been known to say "I just spent an entire day outside in 100 degree weather so you could go to a shooting competition and you aren't willing to help me by watching your younger sister for 20 minutes?"
It is easy to start to take things for granted. And it isn't just my kids, dh can get caught up in his life and forget that I am a fully functioning human being as well. Balance is important. Balance doesn't mean equal....after all, you are the mom....but it does mean that the energy flows both ways.
Julie S.
I would suggest 3 things.
First----get out of the house. Find things your kids are interested in. What are their passions? Help them follow those. Try cool stuff. Check out SCA, 4-H, horse-back riding, pottery, dog training, whatever but help the kids get a life.
Second---you get a life. Find your passion. What have you always secretly wanted to do? Go do it. Perhaps bellydancing, karate, crochet, whatever.
Third---Have a meeting of the minds with your kids. I am not saying "lay down the law" but make yourself heard. Get input from everyone. Make a plan. Listen to feedback. Tweak things if necessary. If someone in the family is so upset by how things are that they are hiding in their room, something needs to give. If one of your kids was that upset on an ongoing basis, you would do what you could to help them feel better. Do the same for yourself.
We have 5 children. Dh travels a lot with work and is a volunteer fireman. Various kids are into gymnastics (lots of travel), shooting sports (lots of travel), breeding and raising goats, lambs and rabbits, learning to sew and crochet, etc.. I run several groups (4-H, unschooling) and study witchcraft.
The kids know that I will go way, way out on a limb to help them do what they want. If there is any way I can do for them what they want I will. I expect them to at least help straighten the house and I tell them so. I have even been known to say "I just spent an entire day outside in 100 degree weather so you could go to a shooting competition and you aren't willing to help me by watching your younger sister for 20 minutes?"
It is easy to start to take things for granted. And it isn't just my kids, dh can get caught up in his life and forget that I am a fully functioning human being as well. Balance is important. Balance doesn't mean equal....after all, you are the mom....but it does mean that the energy flows both ways.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: scrapgal
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 7:55 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] A somewhat reluctant post
I have a serious question. What happens when unschooling isn't
working for mom? When we first started this venture I kept waiting
for some sort of rhythm to form. A groove. A pattern. But what I
am finding is actually what feels like chaos. There are days that I
feel that I am drowning in the chaos. I've found myself on more
than one day hiding in my bedroom behind a book just so I can ignore
the chaos. And there is growing apathy. No one cares that the
bathroom is a mess or that there is crap all over the floor. I'm
sick of walking into a room that I have just cleaned to find that it
is now filled with empty food wrappers, crumbs, clothes, and toys.
It doesn't bother them at all that it is like that either. And
asking them to help is like pulling hen's teeth.
This has all sort of come to a boiling point while dealing with the
hurricane this week. No one wanted to help prepare, find dirty
clothes to wash, pack in case we evacuated, tidy the living room for
the people who were sheltering with us, or even get out of said
living room so I could clean it. Now looking at the growing
mountain of debris that needs to be cleaned from the yard, the new
pile of laundry, the filthy floors from mud and grime being tracked
in, the pile of dishes still waiting to be done as soon as the boil
order is lifted, they are much more content to just sit in the house
and watch television. The 3 days we were without power were filled
with whining and complaining and wishing that the television was
working. Every suggestion that I brought up to entertain ourselves
was shot down with "that's boring, not now, that's lame, no way."
Yet when I asked for suggestions it was always things like, "Well,
couldn't you go to the store and buy a battery operated television"
or "Can't we drive over to Uncle D's house where he has power so we
can watch his television and get on the internet?"
I'm tired. I'm tired of doing all the laundry, all the dishes, all
the cooking, all the cleaning when I have children who are old
enough and capable enough to help (almost 13, almost 10 and 7). I
gave up doling out chores over a year ago and now only ask when I
truly need help like when my hands are full and I need the door
open. Sometimes I stand at the door getting angrier and angrier
because no one is willing to walk 10 feet to open a door for me. To
get off their butts and pull themselves away from what they are
doing for 5 seconds to open a door for someone whose hands are full
of laundry or groceries.
I'm essentially a single parent. My ex-husband lives with us and
there are many days when he leaves at 6 am and doesn't come home
until 10 pm. He's mostly a renter. So there is no "honey will you
do ________" for me. He's not even here to help with post hurricane
clean up because of the nature of his job.
I seek to find those "shining moments of unschooling" and they seem
so few and far between or are clouded over with the pessimism,
apathy and selfishness that seems to be abounding in this house. Is
it so wrong for mom to have her needs met as well? Is there someway
to create order in unschooling? I can't deal with this chaos much
longer and even had the very bad thought that if my kids were in
public school at least I could have a clean house a few hours a day
without it meaning me working the entire time they are awake. Is
unschooling really healthy for a family when mom is cowering in a
corner in her room wishing that the world would just freeze for 15
minutes?
Michelle
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herbshed
My children have started acting at the local theatre. How would I log that?
Sometimes they have a lot of script reading to do, other times none at all.
In Missouri, we have to keep track of hours by subject (1000 hours with a
minimum of 600 core hours required)...and the more hours logged in, the
better. We really love unschooling, but I just really have a hard time
figuring out what subjects to put their activities under.
And it doesn't matter that they are learning if I don't have the hours
documented to back it up :(
~S~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sometimes they have a lot of script reading to do, other times none at all.
In Missouri, we have to keep track of hours by subject (1000 hours with a
minimum of 600 core hours required)...and the more hours logged in, the
better. We really love unschooling, but I just really have a hard time
figuring out what subjects to put their activities under.
And it doesn't matter that they are learning if I don't have the hours
documented to back it up :(
~S~
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
herbshed
Hi Michelle,
I have been through the exact same thing with the house, except I have a
very supportive and loving husband (though he often works 60+ hours a week
at a high stress job). Our unschoolers are 15, 11, 10, 8 and 6. We've also
noticed that the messier the house is, the more the children bicker and
argue among themselves....even the 8 y/o has commented on this (said it
makes him nervous when things are messy).
What we've finally found that is working for us is to have assign rooms,
with the children to pick which rooms. The two youngest are in charge of
the family room, the 10 year old gets the dining room, the 11 y/o gets the
kitchen, and the 15 y/o gets the bathrooms and hall. Plus the 15 y/o
"floats," helping the younger children when needed. Being in charge of a
room means everything from picking up, dusting, wiping down walls and
furniture, sweeping/mopping/vacuuming the floors...the works. Although
they don't have to do everything everyday. For example, the furniture is
dusted once a week, and cabinets and walls are wiped down once a month. And
they get to pick what days to do it. So far, this has been working out
great.
They are also responsible for their own bedrooms, however that is done on
their own time, after their assigned rooms. I'm not too big on the
condition of their bedrooms, as THEY are the ones that have to live in
them...and I can always close the door <grin> Turns out, for the most
part, they keep their rooms fairly straight (which is a bit of a surprise!).
I cook (sometimes) and sort/wash the laundry, but the children fold and put
away. And if it's not in the hamper, it doesn't get washed. It only took
one time for them to miss an outing because they didn't have clean clothes
:)
I think one of the biggest problems we have is clutter. You can't organize
clutter, no matter how many storage boxes you have....believe me, I KNOW, as
I am one of the world's worst clutter-bugs. However with the help of
FLYLady ( http://www.flylady.org ), I am making major progress. It doesn't
cost anything, and it can't hurt to try...or in my case, try and try and try
again. LOL.
Anyway, I don't think it's so much that unschooling isn't working, it's that
you are trying to be housekeeper, dishwasher, laundress, lawn maintenance,
teacher, etc. Any of which...by itself...is a full time job. I probably
haven't done dishes over a dozen times in the past 6 years. My oldest
started doing them when he was 9 and as others got older they started
helping. Now the 11 year old does them, with occasional help....from
sibling, though, not from me. Don't be afraid to not do them. If there are
no clean pots/pans when it comes dinner time, then obviously you can't make
dinner <grin>. If dinner is made, but there are no plates, flatware or
glasses, wash ONLY one setting...yours. I've found it is a very rare
occasion indeed when there are no clean dishes in the house :)
I don't know if any of this helps any, but it's what has been working for
our family.
~S~
I have been through the exact same thing with the house, except I have a
very supportive and loving husband (though he often works 60+ hours a week
at a high stress job). Our unschoolers are 15, 11, 10, 8 and 6. We've also
noticed that the messier the house is, the more the children bicker and
argue among themselves....even the 8 y/o has commented on this (said it
makes him nervous when things are messy).
What we've finally found that is working for us is to have assign rooms,
with the children to pick which rooms. The two youngest are in charge of
the family room, the 10 year old gets the dining room, the 11 y/o gets the
kitchen, and the 15 y/o gets the bathrooms and hall. Plus the 15 y/o
"floats," helping the younger children when needed. Being in charge of a
room means everything from picking up, dusting, wiping down walls and
furniture, sweeping/mopping/vacuuming the floors...the works. Although
they don't have to do everything everyday. For example, the furniture is
dusted once a week, and cabinets and walls are wiped down once a month. And
they get to pick what days to do it. So far, this has been working out
great.
They are also responsible for their own bedrooms, however that is done on
their own time, after their assigned rooms. I'm not too big on the
condition of their bedrooms, as THEY are the ones that have to live in
them...and I can always close the door <grin> Turns out, for the most
part, they keep their rooms fairly straight (which is a bit of a surprise!).
I cook (sometimes) and sort/wash the laundry, but the children fold and put
away. And if it's not in the hamper, it doesn't get washed. It only took
one time for them to miss an outing because they didn't have clean clothes
:)
I think one of the biggest problems we have is clutter. You can't organize
clutter, no matter how many storage boxes you have....believe me, I KNOW, as
I am one of the world's worst clutter-bugs. However with the help of
FLYLady ( http://www.flylady.org ), I am making major progress. It doesn't
cost anything, and it can't hurt to try...or in my case, try and try and try
again. LOL.
Anyway, I don't think it's so much that unschooling isn't working, it's that
you are trying to be housekeeper, dishwasher, laundress, lawn maintenance,
teacher, etc. Any of which...by itself...is a full time job. I probably
haven't done dishes over a dozen times in the past 6 years. My oldest
started doing them when he was 9 and as others got older they started
helping. Now the 11 year old does them, with occasional help....from
sibling, though, not from me. Don't be afraid to not do them. If there are
no clean pots/pans when it comes dinner time, then obviously you can't make
dinner <grin>. If dinner is made, but there are no plates, flatware or
glasses, wash ONLY one setting...yours. I've found it is a very rare
occasion indeed when there are no clean dishes in the house :)
I don't know if any of this helps any, but it's what has been working for
our family.
~S~
alisonmbr
I reply hesitantly because I am a new homeschooler -- my kids are 5,
3 and 1, but I have a few thoughts for you.
One thought is to simplify. Sure, it takes time to get rid of stuff,
but then there is less to straighten up. I try to say this in a not
angry way (and don't always succeed), but I tell the kids that if I
have to pick things up over and over then they will go into the
cellar or the trash. Do you know about FlyLady (www.flylady.net)?
She has a page up right now on getting kids to work with you on
housework.
We're out of a routine for the summer, and I find it a bit
uncomfortable. I'm thinking for the fall that we'll have one day
when we try to have music in our life, one day we definitely try to
get outside, one day when we'll make an extra effort do art, one day
to go to the library, etc. Not that those things won't be options on
other days, but a rough schedule will give us some kind of routine
to use as a springboard. The other thing I'd like to do is read
aloud every day. My thought is that I'd do shower, breakfast, etc,
then some housework, and around 10 we'll do a story.
I'd be interested to hear what kind of routine others use.
Alison
Mama to Parker 11/9/99, Mason 3/3/02 and Evan 3/29/04
3 and 1, but I have a few thoughts for you.
One thought is to simplify. Sure, it takes time to get rid of stuff,
but then there is less to straighten up. I try to say this in a not
angry way (and don't always succeed), but I tell the kids that if I
have to pick things up over and over then they will go into the
cellar or the trash. Do you know about FlyLady (www.flylady.net)?
She has a page up right now on getting kids to work with you on
housework.
We're out of a routine for the summer, and I find it a bit
uncomfortable. I'm thinking for the fall that we'll have one day
when we try to have music in our life, one day we definitely try to
get outside, one day when we'll make an extra effort do art, one day
to go to the library, etc. Not that those things won't be options on
other days, but a rough schedule will give us some kind of routine
to use as a springboard. The other thing I'd like to do is read
aloud every day. My thought is that I'd do shower, breakfast, etc,
then some housework, and around 10 we'll do a story.
I'd be interested to hear what kind of routine others use.
Alison
Mama to Parker 11/9/99, Mason 3/3/02 and Evan 3/29/04
Robyn Coburn
<<<< One thought is to simplify. Sure, it takes time to get rid of stuff,
but then there is less to straighten up. I try to say this in a not
angry way (and don't always succeed), but I tell the kids that if I
have to pick things up over and over then they will go into the
cellar or the trash.>>>>
This is a great way to discourage your kids from wanting to pursue longer
games or projects and also sounds punitive, even if you are not angry, as
well as destructive of trust. If the toy is out "all the time" it must be a
particularly loved and treasured one, so the threat is even more potent.
I have no right to threaten to dispose of something that belongs to another
person. Would you like your husband to threaten to throw away the pair of
shoes (eg) you haven't put away for a couple of days? All in all a barrier
to Unschooling with joy rather than a stepping stone.
When I, and it still happens though rarely, find I am resorting to threats
to achieve my goals, I consider those moments to be *absolute failures* of
my parenting. I apologize to Jayn at once.
Instead I try to express the issue as my feelings and needs.
<<<<< Do you know about FlyLady (www.flylady.net)?
She has a page up right now on getting kids to work with you on
housework. >>>>
I have always liked her, but will change my mind if she is including that
strategy in her lexicon.
<<<<<We're out of a routine for the summer, and I find it a bit
uncomfortable. I'm thinking for the fall that we'll have one day
when we try to have music in our life, one day we definitely try to
get outside, one day when we'll make an extra effort do art, one day
to go to the library, etc. Not that those things won't be options on
other days, but a rough schedule will give us some kind of routine
to use as a springboard. The other thing I'd like to do is read
aloud every day. My thought is that I'd do shower, breakfast, etc,
then some housework, and around 10 we'll do a story.>>>>
Lot's of "I" in this. What are your *kids'* into?
Why wait until Fall to do interesting things? Unschooling does not care
about school vacations or setting our timetables around the schools', and I
have noticed that there is actually more going on around my area over summer
because of the camps and things, and special days at museums and so on.
What if your kids want to be still asleep at 10, or would prefer to do art
or some other thing? Jayn is 5.5 like your eldest and very clear about her
desires and able to fill up her time. I don't try to enforce my notions of a
routine on to her, although I have a household routine that works for *me*,
and she asks for different things including spending most of the day reading
stories to her sometimes.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005
but then there is less to straighten up. I try to say this in a not
angry way (and don't always succeed), but I tell the kids that if I
have to pick things up over and over then they will go into the
cellar or the trash.>>>>
This is a great way to discourage your kids from wanting to pursue longer
games or projects and also sounds punitive, even if you are not angry, as
well as destructive of trust. If the toy is out "all the time" it must be a
particularly loved and treasured one, so the threat is even more potent.
I have no right to threaten to dispose of something that belongs to another
person. Would you like your husband to threaten to throw away the pair of
shoes (eg) you haven't put away for a couple of days? All in all a barrier
to Unschooling with joy rather than a stepping stone.
When I, and it still happens though rarely, find I am resorting to threats
to achieve my goals, I consider those moments to be *absolute failures* of
my parenting. I apologize to Jayn at once.
Instead I try to express the issue as my feelings and needs.
<<<<< Do you know about FlyLady (www.flylady.net)?
She has a page up right now on getting kids to work with you on
housework. >>>>
I have always liked her, but will change my mind if she is including that
strategy in her lexicon.
<<<<<We're out of a routine for the summer, and I find it a bit
uncomfortable. I'm thinking for the fall that we'll have one day
when we try to have music in our life, one day we definitely try to
get outside, one day when we'll make an extra effort do art, one day
to go to the library, etc. Not that those things won't be options on
other days, but a rough schedule will give us some kind of routine
to use as a springboard. The other thing I'd like to do is read
aloud every day. My thought is that I'd do shower, breakfast, etc,
then some housework, and around 10 we'll do a story.>>>>
Lot's of "I" in this. What are your *kids'* into?
Why wait until Fall to do interesting things? Unschooling does not care
about school vacations or setting our timetables around the schools', and I
have noticed that there is actually more going on around my area over summer
because of the camps and things, and special days at museums and so on.
What if your kids want to be still asleep at 10, or would prefer to do art
or some other thing? Jayn is 5.5 like your eldest and very clear about her
desires and able to fill up her time. I don't try to enforce my notions of a
routine on to her, although I have a household routine that works for *me*,
and she asks for different things including spending most of the day reading
stories to her sometimes.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.9.2/52 - Release Date: 7/19/2005
Sherry Upson
I, too, believe strongly in a routine. Children crave routines and boundaries.
Getting up near the same time and going to bed near the same time every day is a good start. I try to work in the interest of the moment . . . right now, it is Guitar lessons and Swim lessons. We weave our days around the scheduled moments. My biggest routine for him is (since the weather here is unbearably hot and humid) going out right after breakfast and playing in the backyard for a while. Then we usually do some TV - his current favorite is Magic School Bus - to chill out (and cool down! :) ). He helps with lunch. I do make him pick up his toys before lunch and before bed. I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting him to help keep the house in order. I am teaching him about life, right? No one else is going to run around behind him picking up in life, so why should I? My goal as a mother is to work myself out of a job! If he has an especially big project, he can leave it out, as long as it is out of the main flow of traffic and it is neat. He has responsibilities, too. Making bed, picking up toys, cleaning kitty litter boxes, taking out trash, cleaning guinea pig cages... I do believe that having kids work WITH you is a very good idea! Life is not all fun and games (drats!) (Soapbox Moment coming up...) I believe that kids today have too little responsibility when growing up and then have a very hard time adjusting to life after mom and dad. If they work with you, they learn not only How to do a job, but that the job must be done. They learn that just because mommy can't play with them right now doesn't mean that mommy is off playing somewhere else! Besides, if you start them young enough, they LOVE to help (in my experience). Even if it is just setting the table or putting away the silverware... they want to spend time with you and will do just about anything to accomplish it! Just my two cents...
Getting up near the same time and going to bed near the same time every day is a good start. I try to work in the interest of the moment . . . right now, it is Guitar lessons and Swim lessons. We weave our days around the scheduled moments. My biggest routine for him is (since the weather here is unbearably hot and humid) going out right after breakfast and playing in the backyard for a while. Then we usually do some TV - his current favorite is Magic School Bus - to chill out (and cool down! :) ). He helps with lunch. I do make him pick up his toys before lunch and before bed. I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting him to help keep the house in order. I am teaching him about life, right? No one else is going to run around behind him picking up in life, so why should I? My goal as a mother is to work myself out of a job! If he has an especially big project, he can leave it out, as long as it is out of the main flow of traffic and it is neat. He has responsibilities, too. Making bed, picking up toys, cleaning kitty litter boxes, taking out trash, cleaning guinea pig cages... I do believe that having kids work WITH you is a very good idea! Life is not all fun and games (drats!) (Soapbox Moment coming up...) I believe that kids today have too little responsibility when growing up and then have a very hard time adjusting to life after mom and dad. If they work with you, they learn not only How to do a job, but that the job must be done. They learn that just because mommy can't play with them right now doesn't mean that mommy is off playing somewhere else! Besides, if you start them young enough, they LOVE to help (in my experience). Even if it is just setting the table or putting away the silverware... they want to spend time with you and will do just about anything to accomplish it! Just my two cents...
----- Original Message -----
From: alisonmbr
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 2:42 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: A somewhat reluctant post
I reply hesitantly because I am a new homeschooler -- my kids are 5,
3 and 1, but I have a few thoughts for you.
One thought is to simplify. Sure, it takes time to get rid of stuff,
but then there is less to straighten up. I try to say this in a not
angry way (and don't always succeed), but I tell the kids that if I
have to pick things up over and over then they will go into the
cellar or the trash. Do you know about FlyLady (www.flylady.net)?
She has a page up right now on getting kids to work with you on
housework.
We're out of a routine for the summer, and I find it a bit
uncomfortable. I'm thinking for the fall that we'll have one day
when we try to have music in our life, one day we definitely try to
get outside, one day when we'll make an extra effort do art, one day
to go to the library, etc. Not that those things won't be options on
other days, but a rough schedule will give us some kind of routine
to use as a springboard. The other thing I'd like to do is read
aloud every day. My thought is that I'd do shower, breakfast, etc,
then some housework, and around 10 we'll do a story.
I'd be interested to hear what kind of routine others use.
Alison
Mama to Parker 11/9/99, Mason 3/3/02 and Evan 3/29/04
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Deb Lewis
It sounds more like a family dynamics issue than an unschooling problem.
First, take it easy on yourself, you've been through a hurricane.
Consider these things:
Whether putting your kids in school would solve any of your current
problems. There would still be hurricane mess to clean up. There would
still be an ex who isn't helping you. There would still be a boil order
on the water. (hope that's lifted by now)
Plus you'd have the stress of getting kids up in time for school, the
expense of school supplies and school clothes, etc. You'd have the
stress of helping three kids with homework every night and bedtime issues
times three.
Will kids who've been in school for six or more hours each day and who
have two or more hours of homework each night be any more willing/able to
help you?
Tell your ex husband he needs to help. He has as much responsibility to
provide a good, safe, reasonably clean, harmonious living atmosphere for
his kids as you do.
Next, if you can't do dishes and your kids can't or won't yet, get paper
plates, plastic disposable cups and utensils and use them. Save everyone
the stress.
Is there a waste basket in every room? Is there a clothes hamper in the
bathroom? Would it help you to put more waste baskets and hampers
around?
Put a whisk broom and dust pan in every room and you won't have to run
back for a broom when you see crumbs.
Get some storage bins or baskets for every room in the house. When you
want to pick stuff up it can go into a bin. You'll have the satisfaction
of getting it off the floor/furniture but not the bother of finding out
where it goes and taking it there. And when a kid asks if you saw it
you'll likely remember where it is.
String or canvas shopping bags hung on door nobs are a great place to
stash toys or books if you want to get the floor picked up quickly.
These things might also help your kids because picking up will only take
a moment and not interfere with what they were doing.
If you required chores before I'm not surprised your kids are reluctant
to help you. I know it's hard but this is human nature. It's human
nature to resist power that seems to want to zap you of your autonomy.
In time they will see the benefits of helping out, but now it just looks
like torture to them.
And this is important, if *you* are stressed out, exhausted and feeling
awful about all the work you are showing them that work is pure drudgery.
No intelligent child would willingly take on a job that even his/her
mother cannot cope with.
This comes back to family dynamics. If you're depressed - and after all
you've been through I wouldn't be surprised- if you're depressed your
kids are going to reflect that. It's going to become the atmosphere of
your house so you might think about taking care of yourself, getting
help, finding someone to talk to, whatever you can. You'll have to make
a deliberate decision every day, maybe every moment, to change the
energy of your home if you want your kids to feel better and more
positive too.
Can you get someone to help you get your house in order? Can you call a
friend? Just to make a start and help you not feel so overwhelmed.
Someone from your church?
I know you said your kids are old enough to help but really, they are
young. It is not reasonable to expect even a thirteen year old to be
able to handle stuff his/her mom can't seem to. If it seems out of
control to you - it's your house, your world - how must it seem to your
kids? If you don't know where to start or what to do next it's not
reasonable to expect them to.
And I think what seems to you like unwillingness to help or cooperate
might be the symptoms of the stress of a major storm, major disruption to
their lives and a mom who's feeling hopeless and angry.
It will be ok. These things pass, and when you can start feeling better
you'll be able to start seeing positive things about your kids and family
again.
It might help you to write five nice things about each kid. Just write
them down and send it to the list, or put it in your pocket. It will
change the way you feel next time you look at your kids and that's will
help in lots of ways.
Deb Lewis
First, take it easy on yourself, you've been through a hurricane.
Consider these things:
Whether putting your kids in school would solve any of your current
problems. There would still be hurricane mess to clean up. There would
still be an ex who isn't helping you. There would still be a boil order
on the water. (hope that's lifted by now)
Plus you'd have the stress of getting kids up in time for school, the
expense of school supplies and school clothes, etc. You'd have the
stress of helping three kids with homework every night and bedtime issues
times three.
Will kids who've been in school for six or more hours each day and who
have two or more hours of homework each night be any more willing/able to
help you?
Tell your ex husband he needs to help. He has as much responsibility to
provide a good, safe, reasonably clean, harmonious living atmosphere for
his kids as you do.
Next, if you can't do dishes and your kids can't or won't yet, get paper
plates, plastic disposable cups and utensils and use them. Save everyone
the stress.
Is there a waste basket in every room? Is there a clothes hamper in the
bathroom? Would it help you to put more waste baskets and hampers
around?
Put a whisk broom and dust pan in every room and you won't have to run
back for a broom when you see crumbs.
Get some storage bins or baskets for every room in the house. When you
want to pick stuff up it can go into a bin. You'll have the satisfaction
of getting it off the floor/furniture but not the bother of finding out
where it goes and taking it there. And when a kid asks if you saw it
you'll likely remember where it is.
String or canvas shopping bags hung on door nobs are a great place to
stash toys or books if you want to get the floor picked up quickly.
These things might also help your kids because picking up will only take
a moment and not interfere with what they were doing.
If you required chores before I'm not surprised your kids are reluctant
to help you. I know it's hard but this is human nature. It's human
nature to resist power that seems to want to zap you of your autonomy.
In time they will see the benefits of helping out, but now it just looks
like torture to them.
And this is important, if *you* are stressed out, exhausted and feeling
awful about all the work you are showing them that work is pure drudgery.
No intelligent child would willingly take on a job that even his/her
mother cannot cope with.
This comes back to family dynamics. If you're depressed - and after all
you've been through I wouldn't be surprised- if you're depressed your
kids are going to reflect that. It's going to become the atmosphere of
your house so you might think about taking care of yourself, getting
help, finding someone to talk to, whatever you can. You'll have to make
a deliberate decision every day, maybe every moment, to change the
energy of your home if you want your kids to feel better and more
positive too.
Can you get someone to help you get your house in order? Can you call a
friend? Just to make a start and help you not feel so overwhelmed.
Someone from your church?
I know you said your kids are old enough to help but really, they are
young. It is not reasonable to expect even a thirteen year old to be
able to handle stuff his/her mom can't seem to. If it seems out of
control to you - it's your house, your world - how must it seem to your
kids? If you don't know where to start or what to do next it's not
reasonable to expect them to.
And I think what seems to you like unwillingness to help or cooperate
might be the symptoms of the stress of a major storm, major disruption to
their lives and a mom who's feeling hopeless and angry.
It will be ok. These things pass, and when you can start feeling better
you'll be able to start seeing positive things about your kids and family
again.
It might help you to write five nice things about each kid. Just write
them down and send it to the list, or put it in your pocket. It will
change the way you feel next time you look at your kids and that's will
help in lots of ways.
Deb Lewis
Deb Lewis
***I tell the kids that if I have to pick things up over and over then
they will go into the
cellar or the trash.***
I don't like this idea because it won't build the relationship between
mom and kids. I know I would feel hurt and resentful if my husband threw
away my stuff. I would feel like he cared more about being in control
than he cared about me and my feelings.
And I think it's like stealing or destruction of property to throw out
things that don't belong to me. I would never just go to my mom's or my
friends house and start pitching stuff.
I think it's a great idea to put bins or trays in every room so there's a
place to put things when you want to vacuum or just clear a path. Moms
will be nice people who care about other people's stuff, kids won't be
sad and resentful and beloved toys won't get lost or broken or svooped up
the Hoover.
Deb Lewis
they will go into the
cellar or the trash.***
I don't like this idea because it won't build the relationship between
mom and kids. I know I would feel hurt and resentful if my husband threw
away my stuff. I would feel like he cared more about being in control
than he cared about me and my feelings.
And I think it's like stealing or destruction of property to throw out
things that don't belong to me. I would never just go to my mom's or my
friends house and start pitching stuff.
I think it's a great idea to put bins or trays in every room so there's a
place to put things when you want to vacuum or just clear a path. Moms
will be nice people who care about other people's stuff, kids won't be
sad and resentful and beloved toys won't get lost or broken or svooped up
the Hoover.
Deb Lewis
J. Stauffer
<<<<I don't like this idea because it won't build the relationship between
mom and kids. I know I would feel hurt and resentful if my husband threw
away my stuff. I would feel like he cared more about being in control
than he cared about me and my feelings. >>>
I don't like the idea either but the problem I have with husband analogy is that if my husband kept stuff strewn all over, I repeatedly asked him to please put it away because of whatever the reason is and he repeatedly ignored me....I would have problems with that. I would think the problem wouldn't be the mess but would be our relationship.
Julie S.
mom and kids. I know I would feel hurt and resentful if my husband threw
away my stuff. I would feel like he cared more about being in control
than he cared about me and my feelings. >>>
I don't like the idea either but the problem I have with husband analogy is that if my husband kept stuff strewn all over, I repeatedly asked him to please put it away because of whatever the reason is and he repeatedly ignored me....I would have problems with that. I would think the problem wouldn't be the mess but would be our relationship.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Deb Lewis
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: A somewhat reluctant post
***I tell the kids that if I have to pick things up over and over then
they will go into the
cellar or the trash.***
I don't like this idea because it won't build the relationship between
mom and kids. I know I would feel hurt and resentful if my husband threw
away my stuff. I would feel like he cared more about being in control
than he cared about me and my feelings.
And I think it's like stealing or destruction of property to throw out
things that don't belong to me. I would never just go to my mom's or my
friends house and start pitching stuff.
I think it's a great idea to put bins or trays in every room so there's a
place to put things when you want to vacuum or just clear a path. Moms
will be nice people who care about other people's stuff, kids won't be
sad and resentful and beloved toys won't get lost or broken or svooped up
the Hoover.
Deb Lewis
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<<< your being the General of your little Army>>>>
<<<<to set a good example for my family helps>>>
Sherry,
There is NOT ONE single parenting or procedural suggestion that you have
made that is not a barrier to Unschooling with joy. Whatever example you are
setting it is not one of equal respect for autonomous beings.
I hope that no-one implements any of those authoritarian, parent-centered,
limiting, anti-freedom recommendations.
Instead, I *hope* all of you who think any of this stuff are stepping stones
towards Unschooling, and especially Sherry, Cathy and ~S~ , go directly to
www.Sandradodd.com/unschooling and read the whole website, but especially
the Chores link, before posting anything other than questions here again.
I'm not a moderator here - it's just a suggestion. Believe me there are
plenty of people whose writings are there who have struggled with the
realities of housecleaning without resorting to assigning tasks with
punishments for non-compliance.
You might also get some alternative ideas to traditional punitive and
coercive parenting at Danielle Conger's blog site also
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Try especially her "Principles instead of Rules" article.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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<<<<to set a good example for my family helps>>>
Sherry,
There is NOT ONE single parenting or procedural suggestion that you have
made that is not a barrier to Unschooling with joy. Whatever example you are
setting it is not one of equal respect for autonomous beings.
I hope that no-one implements any of those authoritarian, parent-centered,
limiting, anti-freedom recommendations.
Instead, I *hope* all of you who think any of this stuff are stepping stones
towards Unschooling, and especially Sherry, Cathy and ~S~ , go directly to
www.Sandradodd.com/unschooling and read the whole website, but especially
the Chores link, before posting anything other than questions here again.
I'm not a moderator here - it's just a suggestion. Believe me there are
plenty of people whose writings are there who have struggled with the
realities of housecleaning without resorting to assigning tasks with
punishments for non-compliance.
You might also get some alternative ideas to traditional punitive and
coercive parenting at Danielle Conger's blog site also
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
Try especially her "Principles instead of Rules" article.
Robyn L. Coburn
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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Robyn Coburn
<<<< Unschooling does not mean no rules either. >>>>
Yeah it actually kinda does.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Yeah it actually kinda does.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<<Anyway, I don't think it's so much that unschooling isn't working, it's
that you are trying to be ........teacher>>>>
Well there's the primary reason why Unschooling wouldn't be working.
Robyn L. Coburn
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that you are trying to be ........teacher>>>>
Well there's the primary reason why Unschooling wouldn't be working.
Robyn L. Coburn
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coolcrew
<<<< Unschooling does not mean no rules either. >>>>
honest. Routine and structure sound like homeschooling - and not far off a
curriculum as well. I don't have any rules and I don't live in chaos
either. My children have made agreements with me and in turn I make
agreements with them and we try - mostly- to live in harmony and respect
each others belongings and space. I don't agree that a13 year old is not
capable of helping out either but I would not ask a child to do what I
couldn't do myself. I donot have even owned a timer so nothing we do is
ever timed.
Ruth
>Yes I agree. I am a bit mystified by some of the stuff I m reading to be
> Yeah it actually kinda does.>******************
honest. Routine and structure sound like homeschooling - and not far off a
curriculum as well. I don't have any rules and I don't live in chaos
either. My children have made agreements with me and in turn I make
agreements with them and we try - mostly- to live in harmony and respect
each others belongings and space. I don't agree that a13 year old is not
capable of helping out either but I would not ask a child to do what I
couldn't do myself. I donot have even owned a timer so nothing we do is
ever timed.
Ruth
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Cathy <cathyirene@...>
From my experience, I would say that unschooling doesn't have to be
chaos. Some
children do better with a little structure. I'm not saying that they
have to do
math from 8-9, but you could set goals for them to do each day. This,
of
course, can include chores. For instance, you could say that A,B,C
gets done
before lunch. Or you could say that X,Y,Z gets done before free time.
One day I was so distressed, I stormed out and left my chore reluctant
13 and 14
year olds home. I was tired of their complaining about helping out. I
told
them to have the house cleaned before I got back or the computer was
getting
packed up. And they did! Of course, I called before I came home to
check on
them (and to make sure it was done :)
-=-=-=-=-=-
I'd recommend breathing deeply. A lot. And asking for help. Be prepared
for "no" as the answer; but if your children know you really need help,
I can't imagine their not helping.
Unless, of course, you've been requiring chores so far in their lives.
If that's the case, then they need time to heal and to begin trusting
you again. You might want to make things a bit easier for a while by
maybe using paper plates, etc . Or bins in the family room to toss toys
in.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Either find something to motivate them or make it mandatory. Find what
motivates them and make that their goal. First they have to get X
done. Or
just make it that they have to do X no matter what.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Nononono! NOT on an unschooling list!!! Make it appealing. Ask for
their help. Do it WITH them! Just DO "X" yourself if it's necessary to
you.
Or hire a maid. Your children were NOT put here to be your
maids/servants---even if *you* were treated that way as a child! Treat
them they way you wish *you* had been treated!
-=-=-=-=-
There is no reason for you to be the maid. Your children are old
enough to
clean up after themselves.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Well, threre's even LESS of a reason for your children to be maids!!!
It wasn't your children's choices to be born into your family. It was
your decision to have them. They're not responsible for your
housekeeping. They didn't get to choose your house or furniture. They
can't decide to move into a smaller, more efficient house!
"Old enough" doesn't mean anything. My children are "old enough" to do
all sorts of things. I still read to my nine-year-old and tie his
shoes. I still wash my 17-year-old's clothes and fix him breakfast. I
clean their rooms, scratch their heads, and happily take them where
they need to go. Ya' know what? They will do those same things for me.
I do those things for my husband too! Age has nothing to do with it.
Generosity DOES. The more *honestly* generous you are, the more
generous they'll become.
It's more important to do things because you WANT to. I cheerfully fold
laundry and wash dishes. While I'm doing those things, I'll think about
how happy I am that they're part of my life and that we have clothes to
wear and food to eat. Look for the GOOD in your "chores" and you may
find that they're not so awful.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Unschooling does not mean no rules either.
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah, it does. Try *principles* instead of rules. You'll find life
becomes a WHOLE lot sweeter and more joyful!
~Kelly
From: Cathy <cathyirene@...>
From my experience, I would say that unschooling doesn't have to be
chaos. Some
children do better with a little structure. I'm not saying that they
have to do
math from 8-9, but you could set goals for them to do each day. This,
of
course, can include chores. For instance, you could say that A,B,C
gets done
before lunch. Or you could say that X,Y,Z gets done before free time.
One day I was so distressed, I stormed out and left my chore reluctant
13 and 14
year olds home. I was tired of their complaining about helping out. I
told
them to have the house cleaned before I got back or the computer was
getting
packed up. And they did! Of course, I called before I came home to
check on
them (and to make sure it was done :)
-=-=-=-=-=-
I'd recommend breathing deeply. A lot. And asking for help. Be prepared
for "no" as the answer; but if your children know you really need help,
I can't imagine their not helping.
Unless, of course, you've been requiring chores so far in their lives.
If that's the case, then they need time to heal and to begin trusting
you again. You might want to make things a bit easier for a while by
maybe using paper plates, etc . Or bins in the family room to toss toys
in.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Either find something to motivate them or make it mandatory. Find what
motivates them and make that their goal. First they have to get X
done. Or
just make it that they have to do X no matter what.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Nononono! NOT on an unschooling list!!! Make it appealing. Ask for
their help. Do it WITH them! Just DO "X" yourself if it's necessary to
you.
Or hire a maid. Your children were NOT put here to be your
maids/servants---even if *you* were treated that way as a child! Treat
them they way you wish *you* had been treated!
-=-=-=-=-
There is no reason for you to be the maid. Your children are old
enough to
clean up after themselves.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Well, threre's even LESS of a reason for your children to be maids!!!
It wasn't your children's choices to be born into your family. It was
your decision to have them. They're not responsible for your
housekeeping. They didn't get to choose your house or furniture. They
can't decide to move into a smaller, more efficient house!
"Old enough" doesn't mean anything. My children are "old enough" to do
all sorts of things. I still read to my nine-year-old and tie his
shoes. I still wash my 17-year-old's clothes and fix him breakfast. I
clean their rooms, scratch their heads, and happily take them where
they need to go. Ya' know what? They will do those same things for me.
I do those things for my husband too! Age has nothing to do with it.
Generosity DOES. The more *honestly* generous you are, the more
generous they'll become.
It's more important to do things because you WANT to. I cheerfully fold
laundry and wash dishes. While I'm doing those things, I'll think about
how happy I am that they're part of my life and that we have clothes to
wear and food to eat. Look for the GOOD in your "chores" and you may
find that they're not so awful.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Unschooling does not mean no rules either.
-=-=-=-=-
Yeah, it does. Try *principles* instead of rules. You'll find life
becomes a WHOLE lot sweeter and more joyful!
~Kelly
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Sherry Upson <kupson@...>
It sounds to me like the problem isn't the unschooling
-=-=-=-=-=-
Truer words have never been spoken/written! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
but the structure.
-=-=-=-=-
OOOOPS!
-=-=-=-=-
It will take a month of your being
the General of your little Army for them to fall in line. What works
in the
military (I am an AF Veteran married to an active duty Army Soldier -
currently
in Baghdad for a year) is cracking down hard at first. Make it far
stricter
than it needs to be. You can always let up a bit later but it is very
hard to
start lenient and then get stricter. Human nature doesn't work that
way.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I truly hope no one's taking this seriously on this list. This is awful
unschooling advice.
I'm also married to a member of the military. Ben's a lieutenant
colonel in the Air Force.
But our family is NOT the military. Our family is a ...well....FAMILY!
We don't "crack down" on anything, We work together as a cohesive
group---because we love each other and want the best for each other.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have recently started cracking down and pushing patterns. Things are
starting
to take shape. No more eating or drinking in the living room. You
want to eat?
Eat at the table. You don't want to eat what I fixed? Fine. You
don't eat
(trust me, they will not starve by missing an occasional meal). Our
new saying
around here is "Mom is not a short-order cook." You want to play video
games?
Here's the timer. You get 30 min a day. You choose when. You want
lunch?
Sorry, no lunch until the toys are picked up.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Children behave EXACTLY as they are treated. I hope that these children
find kinder hearts somewhere else so that they don't treat their
children---or their old, feeble parents!--- this way in the future.
As a child, wouldn't you rather be treated with kindness and
generosity? *I* would. I think we need to model the behavior we'd like
to see in our children.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
We do allowances - one dollar per year of age. If you do not do your
expected
household responsibilities (not chores), you lose money (conversely,
you go
above and beyond, you gain money).
-=-=-=-=-
We give our children pocket money. That money is not tied to chores or
the euphemistic "responsibilities"---and if they need something and I
have a few extra bucks, I'm willing to share. Oddly, when I'm short,
they're more than willing to help me out financially. And Cameron (17)
has more money than I do right now!!!
-=-=-=-=-=-
Maybe sitting down with the kids and explaining in a calm tone of voice
that you
are all in this together.
-=-=-=-=
Good idea.
We did that. I have no problem washing dishes and washing and folding
clothes, but I hate to put them away. Cameron loves to do this! Yippee!
We can work together and neither does what s/he hates. When Cam isn't
here or when I'm busy with other things, we're willing to help the
other out even with those things we don't love to do. Because we know
that it's a nice thing to do.
-=-=-=-=-
Have a list ready... Who wants to wash dishes? No
one? OK, so we'll all take turns - one person each day and mark it on
a
calendar. Anyone want to do the vacuuming? No? OK, the oldest does
this.
Dusting? No? Just assign if no one volunteers.
-=-=-=-=-
YUCK!
If treated as real people, not as people-to-be, they will eventually be
eager to help. A sure-fire way to get them to hate to clean is to force
it---just like with learning!
Mine volunteer to do things without my even asking. They see things
that should be done and pitch in. Because we're a family, not a
military operation, where no one wants to take the responsibility. And
household stuff gets done because everyone would rather live in a clean
home and none of the "chores" are considered negative.
-=-=-=-=-
If they want something, see if their list is completed first. It
goes without saying, no TV until their beds are made and teeth are
brushed. If
you can't walk through their room from the mess, no going out with
friends or
whatever.
-=-=-=-=-
They will learn that none of these things are pleasurable. They will
become things to be avoided at all costs. They will also know you are a
dictator and to *also* be avoided.
-=-=-=-=-
Kids crave routine. Kids crave structure. Kids crave boundaries.
They will push and push as far as they can to see just where the
boundary is.
When I acted like a martyr, nothing happened. When I became General
Mommy, this
place started to take shape.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Old wive's tale.
Kids crave love. Kids crave caring. Kids crave honesty.
They will push and push and push if there *IS* a boundary. No boundary?
No pushing!
When a mom acts like a martyr, a child learns to treat her that way.
When a mom acts like a dictator, a child learns to treat her that way.
When a mom *is* a partner, so is the child.
-=-=-=-=-
Do take some time for yourself.
-=-=-=-=-
This is important. You simply ask for some quiet time. With tiny
children, you may need to get some help from a friend or relative. But
you can know that this time is short and won't last forever. They grow
up soooo fast. It's not long before they're driving and out for weeks
at a time (I'm missing Cameron right now because he's been
house-sitting for two weeks. At the end of this week, he leaves for Not
Back To School Camp for a week. Time flies, y'all! You will have years
of uninterrupted time in 20 years---enjoy your children while you have
them: you'll miss even the dirty house when they're gone!!!
-=-=-=-=-=-
Set the timer and put it outside of your
bedroom door. Tell the kids they are not to interrupt you before the
timer goes
off unless they are bleeding or on fire! As Moms, we tend to give and
give and
give until our well is dry. When there is no one there to refill it
for us, we
must do it for ourselves or we will not be able to help those most
important to
us.
-=-=-=-=-
This sounds like a combination of Dr Phil and John Rosemond. Avoid both
those men!
It's very hard to reject the traditional parenting that we were raised
with and that is so prevalent in our society, but it's not impossible.
Find people who are practice peaceful, respectful parenting and hang
out with them. Spend a lot of time here on this list where we respect
and trust children. Just be nicer to your kids! They're worth it! And
you can heal that child in you by being a better parent!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: Sherry Upson <kupson@...>
It sounds to me like the problem isn't the unschooling
-=-=-=-=-=-
Truer words have never been spoken/written! <g>
-=-=-=-=-
but the structure.
-=-=-=-=-
OOOOPS!
-=-=-=-=-
It will take a month of your being
the General of your little Army for them to fall in line. What works
in the
military (I am an AF Veteran married to an active duty Army Soldier -
currently
in Baghdad for a year) is cracking down hard at first. Make it far
stricter
than it needs to be. You can always let up a bit later but it is very
hard to
start lenient and then get stricter. Human nature doesn't work that
way.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I truly hope no one's taking this seriously on this list. This is awful
unschooling advice.
I'm also married to a member of the military. Ben's a lieutenant
colonel in the Air Force.
But our family is NOT the military. Our family is a ...well....FAMILY!
We don't "crack down" on anything, We work together as a cohesive
group---because we love each other and want the best for each other.
-=-=-=-=-=-
I have recently started cracking down and pushing patterns. Things are
starting
to take shape. No more eating or drinking in the living room. You
want to eat?
Eat at the table. You don't want to eat what I fixed? Fine. You
don't eat
(trust me, they will not starve by missing an occasional meal). Our
new saying
around here is "Mom is not a short-order cook." You want to play video
games?
Here's the timer. You get 30 min a day. You choose when. You want
lunch?
Sorry, no lunch until the toys are picked up.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Children behave EXACTLY as they are treated. I hope that these children
find kinder hearts somewhere else so that they don't treat their
children---or their old, feeble parents!--- this way in the future.
As a child, wouldn't you rather be treated with kindness and
generosity? *I* would. I think we need to model the behavior we'd like
to see in our children.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
We do allowances - one dollar per year of age. If you do not do your
expected
household responsibilities (not chores), you lose money (conversely,
you go
above and beyond, you gain money).
-=-=-=-=-
We give our children pocket money. That money is not tied to chores or
the euphemistic "responsibilities"---and if they need something and I
have a few extra bucks, I'm willing to share. Oddly, when I'm short,
they're more than willing to help me out financially. And Cameron (17)
has more money than I do right now!!!
-=-=-=-=-=-
Maybe sitting down with the kids and explaining in a calm tone of voice
that you
are all in this together.
-=-=-=-=
Good idea.
We did that. I have no problem washing dishes and washing and folding
clothes, but I hate to put them away. Cameron loves to do this! Yippee!
We can work together and neither does what s/he hates. When Cam isn't
here or when I'm busy with other things, we're willing to help the
other out even with those things we don't love to do. Because we know
that it's a nice thing to do.
-=-=-=-=-
Have a list ready... Who wants to wash dishes? No
one? OK, so we'll all take turns - one person each day and mark it on
a
calendar. Anyone want to do the vacuuming? No? OK, the oldest does
this.
Dusting? No? Just assign if no one volunteers.
-=-=-=-=-
YUCK!
If treated as real people, not as people-to-be, they will eventually be
eager to help. A sure-fire way to get them to hate to clean is to force
it---just like with learning!
Mine volunteer to do things without my even asking. They see things
that should be done and pitch in. Because we're a family, not a
military operation, where no one wants to take the responsibility. And
household stuff gets done because everyone would rather live in a clean
home and none of the "chores" are considered negative.
-=-=-=-=-
If they want something, see if their list is completed first. It
goes without saying, no TV until their beds are made and teeth are
brushed. If
you can't walk through their room from the mess, no going out with
friends or
whatever.
-=-=-=-=-
They will learn that none of these things are pleasurable. They will
become things to be avoided at all costs. They will also know you are a
dictator and to *also* be avoided.
-=-=-=-=-
Kids crave routine. Kids crave structure. Kids crave boundaries.
They will push and push as far as they can to see just where the
boundary is.
When I acted like a martyr, nothing happened. When I became General
Mommy, this
place started to take shape.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Old wive's tale.
Kids crave love. Kids crave caring. Kids crave honesty.
They will push and push and push if there *IS* a boundary. No boundary?
No pushing!
When a mom acts like a martyr, a child learns to treat her that way.
When a mom acts like a dictator, a child learns to treat her that way.
When a mom *is* a partner, so is the child.
-=-=-=-=-
Do take some time for yourself.
-=-=-=-=-
This is important. You simply ask for some quiet time. With tiny
children, you may need to get some help from a friend or relative. But
you can know that this time is short and won't last forever. They grow
up soooo fast. It's not long before they're driving and out for weeks
at a time (I'm missing Cameron right now because he's been
house-sitting for two weeks. At the end of this week, he leaves for Not
Back To School Camp for a week. Time flies, y'all! You will have years
of uninterrupted time in 20 years---enjoy your children while you have
them: you'll miss even the dirty house when they're gone!!!
-=-=-=-=-=-
Set the timer and put it outside of your
bedroom door. Tell the kids they are not to interrupt you before the
timer goes
off unless they are bleeding or on fire! As Moms, we tend to give and
give and
give until our well is dry. When there is no one there to refill it
for us, we
must do it for ourselves or we will not be able to help those most
important to
us.
-=-=-=-=-
This sounds like a combination of Dr Phil and John Rosemond. Avoid both
those men!
It's very hard to reject the traditional parenting that we were raised
with and that is so prevalent in our society, but it's not impossible.
Find people who are practice peaceful, respectful parenting and hang
out with them. Spend a lot of time here on this list where we respect
and trust children. Just be nicer to your kids! They're worth it! And
you can heal that child in you by being a better parent!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: herbshed <herbshed@...>
My children have started acting at the local theatre. How would I
log that?
-=-=-=-=
Reading, literature. Performing arts.
What's the subject matter? The play? Do you talk about motivation?
Timing? History? Scheduling? Costuming?
-=-=-=-=-
Sometimes they have a lot of script reading to do, other times none at
all.
In Missouri, we have to keep track of hours by subject (1000 hours with
a
minimum of 600 core hours required)...and the more hours logged in, the
better.
-=-=-=-=-
Not true. Give the state the absolute minimum required by law!
-=-=-=-=-
We really love unschooling, but I just really have a hard time
figuring out what subjects to put their activities under.
-=-=-=-
In SC we have to log 180 days, covering the following subjects:
reading, wiriting, math, science, & social studies. In "high school"
reading and writing changes to literature and composition. Oddly, art,
music, computer, history, and PE are absent.
Cameron's "study of music" has covered music, of course, but also
history (60's & 70's, Viet Nam, civil rights, etc.), fashion, politics,
composition (both lyrics & music), marketing, ----it goes on and on!
Have you seen the two "curricula" for unschooling? Someone with handy
links, could you please bop in? There's Carol Narigon's curriculum and
Pam Sorooshian's. Both excellent. You could get a lot of ideas from
them.
-=-=-=-=-
And it doesn't matter that they are learning if I don't have the hours
documented to back it up :(
-=-=-=-
OOOHHHH! How wrong you are! THE most important thing is the learning.
It's *your* responsibility to do the documentation, and that has
nothing to do with the children!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: herbshed <herbshed@...>
My children have started acting at the local theatre. How would I
log that?
-=-=-=-=
Reading, literature. Performing arts.
What's the subject matter? The play? Do you talk about motivation?
Timing? History? Scheduling? Costuming?
-=-=-=-=-
Sometimes they have a lot of script reading to do, other times none at
all.
In Missouri, we have to keep track of hours by subject (1000 hours with
a
minimum of 600 core hours required)...and the more hours logged in, the
better.
-=-=-=-=-
Not true. Give the state the absolute minimum required by law!
-=-=-=-=-
We really love unschooling, but I just really have a hard time
figuring out what subjects to put their activities under.
-=-=-=-
In SC we have to log 180 days, covering the following subjects:
reading, wiriting, math, science, & social studies. In "high school"
reading and writing changes to literature and composition. Oddly, art,
music, computer, history, and PE are absent.
Cameron's "study of music" has covered music, of course, but also
history (60's & 70's, Viet Nam, civil rights, etc.), fashion, politics,
composition (both lyrics & music), marketing, ----it goes on and on!
Have you seen the two "curricula" for unschooling? Someone with handy
links, could you please bop in? There's Carol Narigon's curriculum and
Pam Sorooshian's. Both excellent. You could get a lot of ideas from
them.
-=-=-=-=-
And it doesn't matter that they are learning if I don't have the hours
documented to back it up :(
-=-=-=-
OOOHHHH! How wrong you are! THE most important thing is the learning.
It's *your* responsibility to do the documentation, and that has
nothing to do with the children!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
soggyboysmom
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/iblog/unschooling/index.html
>http://sandradodd.com/unschoolingcurriculum
> Have you seen the two "curricula" for unschooling? Someone with
>handy
> links, could you please bop in? There's Carol Narigon's curriculum
>and
> Pam Sorooshian's. Both excellent. You could get a lot of ideas from
> them.
http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/iblog/unschooling/index.html
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: herbshed <herbshed@...>
What we've finally found that is working for us is to have assign rooms,
with the children to pick which rooms. The two youngest are in charge
of
the family room, the 10 year old gets the dining room, the 11 y/o gets
the
kitchen, and the 15 y/o gets the bathrooms and hall. Plus the 15 y/o
"floats," helping the younger children when needed. Being in charge
of a
room means everything from picking up, dusting, wiping down walls and
furniture, sweeping/mopping/vacuuming the floors...the works. Although
they don't have to do everything everyday. For example, the furniture
is
dusted once a week, and cabinets and walls are wiped down once a month.
And
they get to pick what days to do it. So far, this has been working out
great.
-=-=-=-
Uh huh---and Mom does nothing?
They are not slaves. They are children.
-=-=-=-=-
I cook (sometimes) and sort/wash the laundry, but the children fold and
put
away. And if it's not in the hamper, it doesn't get washed. It only
took
one time for them to miss an outing because they didn't have clean
clothes
:)
-=-=-=-=-
Oh, so mom cooks (sometimes) and sorts & washes laundry. What happens
if mom's clothes are dirty?
*My* children would wash my clothes because I do the same for them. I
bet your child would avoid it---and tell you that it wasn't *his* job.
This reminds me of the story Joyce tells: She has spilt milk and bent
over to clean it up. Kathryn wallked by and said, "It's *your* mess;
YOU clean it up!"
She'd heard that more than once. Joyce felt awful and decided that
wasn't the way she wanted her relationship with her child to be and
changed the way she handles situations like that.
-=-=-=-=-
Anyway, I don't think it's so much that unschooling isn't working, it's
that
you are trying to be housekeeper, dishwasher, laundress, lawn
maintenance,
teacher, etc. Any of which...by itself...is a full time job. I
probably
haven't done dishes over a dozen times in the past 6 years. My oldest
started doing them when he was 9 and as others got older they started
helping. Now the 11 year old does them, with occasional help....from
sibling, though, not from me. Don't be afraid to not do them.
-=-=-=-=-
Really bad parenting advice. They are NOT slaves!
-=-=-=-=-
If there are
no clean pots/pans when it comes dinner time, then obviously you can't
make
dinner <grin>. If dinner is made, but there are no plates, flatware or
glasses, wash ONLY one setting...yours. I've found it is a very rare
occasion indeed when there are no clean dishes in the house :)
-==-=-=-=-
What they're learning is that, as an adult, you have NO
responsibilities----especially of you can make someone else do
everything for you!
I would hate for my children to treat me that way!
I see it as my role to help my children see that the house is an haven,
not a prison, and that keeping the haven clean and working is a joyful
and pleasant thing!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't know if any of this helps any, but it's what has been working
for
our family.
-=-=-=-=-
It's what's been working for *YOU*, NOT the family!
It might help on traditional parenting/schooling lists, but it is of no
help here on an unschooling list. We're trying to help our children
have joyful lives, NOT be our slaves.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
From: herbshed <herbshed@...>
What we've finally found that is working for us is to have assign rooms,
with the children to pick which rooms. The two youngest are in charge
of
the family room, the 10 year old gets the dining room, the 11 y/o gets
the
kitchen, and the 15 y/o gets the bathrooms and hall. Plus the 15 y/o
"floats," helping the younger children when needed. Being in charge
of a
room means everything from picking up, dusting, wiping down walls and
furniture, sweeping/mopping/vacuuming the floors...the works. Although
they don't have to do everything everyday. For example, the furniture
is
dusted once a week, and cabinets and walls are wiped down once a month.
And
they get to pick what days to do it. So far, this has been working out
great.
-=-=-=-
Uh huh---and Mom does nothing?
They are not slaves. They are children.
-=-=-=-=-
I cook (sometimes) and sort/wash the laundry, but the children fold and
put
away. And if it's not in the hamper, it doesn't get washed. It only
took
one time for them to miss an outing because they didn't have clean
clothes
:)
-=-=-=-=-
Oh, so mom cooks (sometimes) and sorts & washes laundry. What happens
if mom's clothes are dirty?
*My* children would wash my clothes because I do the same for them. I
bet your child would avoid it---and tell you that it wasn't *his* job.
This reminds me of the story Joyce tells: She has spilt milk and bent
over to clean it up. Kathryn wallked by and said, "It's *your* mess;
YOU clean it up!"
She'd heard that more than once. Joyce felt awful and decided that
wasn't the way she wanted her relationship with her child to be and
changed the way she handles situations like that.
-=-=-=-=-
Anyway, I don't think it's so much that unschooling isn't working, it's
that
you are trying to be housekeeper, dishwasher, laundress, lawn
maintenance,
teacher, etc. Any of which...by itself...is a full time job. I
probably
haven't done dishes over a dozen times in the past 6 years. My oldest
started doing them when he was 9 and as others got older they started
helping. Now the 11 year old does them, with occasional help....from
sibling, though, not from me. Don't be afraid to not do them.
-=-=-=-=-
Really bad parenting advice. They are NOT slaves!
-=-=-=-=-
If there are
no clean pots/pans when it comes dinner time, then obviously you can't
make
dinner <grin>. If dinner is made, but there are no plates, flatware or
glasses, wash ONLY one setting...yours. I've found it is a very rare
occasion indeed when there are no clean dishes in the house :)
-==-=-=-=-
What they're learning is that, as an adult, you have NO
responsibilities----especially of you can make someone else do
everything for you!
I would hate for my children to treat me that way!
I see it as my role to help my children see that the house is an haven,
not a prison, and that keeping the haven clean and working is a joyful
and pleasant thing!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-
I don't know if any of this helps any, but it's what has been working
for
our family.
-=-=-=-=-
It's what's been working for *YOU*, NOT the family!
It might help on traditional parenting/schooling lists, but it is of no
help here on an unschooling list. We're trying to help our children
have joyful lives, NOT be our slaves.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
October 6-9, 2005
http://liveandlearnconference.org
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: alisonmbr <alison@...>
One thought is to simplify. Sure, it takes time to get rid of stuff,
but then there is less to straighten up. I try to say this in a not
angry way (and don't always succeed), but I tell the kids that if I
have to pick things up over and over then they will go into the
cellar or the trash.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Simplifying is good----but how would *you* feel if the kids started
tossing your stuff in the trash?
Don't think they won't! And even if they don't, don't think they won't
think about it!!!
Creepy way to be treated.
Pick up their things lovingly and put them in a safe place. they'll do
the same for you one day.
-==-=-=-
We're out of a routine for the summer, and I find it a bit
uncomfortable. I'm thinking for the fall that we'll have one day
when we try to have music in our life, one day we definitely try to
get outside, one day when we'll make an extra effort do art, one day
to go to the library, etc. Not that those things won't be options on
other days, but a rough schedule will give us some kind of routine
to use as a springboard.
-=-=-=-=-
I try to see what they're interested in that week and help them reach
goals or try new things. I am a lister---lists for everything. And I
keep a calendar/daytimer with what's planned and what's happened (even
if unplanned).
When the boys were littler, we would loosely "schedule" somewhere to go
every week. It was fun to talk about what and where and with whom. At
17, Cameron has his own schedule. Duncan (9) is more of a
homebody---likes to have visitors a lot.
Our lives are filled with music---that's not something I need to
schedule! <g>
Library happens in spurts---sometimes several times in one week,
sometimes not at all for several weeks.
-==-=-=-=-=-
The other thing I'd like to do is read
aloud every day. My thought is that I'd do shower, breakfast, etc,
then some housework, and around 10 we'll do a story.
-=-=-=-=-
If the kids enjoy that, cool! We're in the middle of Harry Potter right
now.
~Kelly
From: alisonmbr <alison@...>
One thought is to simplify. Sure, it takes time to get rid of stuff,
but then there is less to straighten up. I try to say this in a not
angry way (and don't always succeed), but I tell the kids that if I
have to pick things up over and over then they will go into the
cellar or the trash.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Simplifying is good----but how would *you* feel if the kids started
tossing your stuff in the trash?
Don't think they won't! And even if they don't, don't think they won't
think about it!!!
Creepy way to be treated.
Pick up their things lovingly and put them in a safe place. they'll do
the same for you one day.
-==-=-=-
We're out of a routine for the summer, and I find it a bit
uncomfortable. I'm thinking for the fall that we'll have one day
when we try to have music in our life, one day we definitely try to
get outside, one day when we'll make an extra effort do art, one day
to go to the library, etc. Not that those things won't be options on
other days, but a rough schedule will give us some kind of routine
to use as a springboard.
-=-=-=-=-
I try to see what they're interested in that week and help them reach
goals or try new things. I am a lister---lists for everything. And I
keep a calendar/daytimer with what's planned and what's happened (even
if unplanned).
When the boys were littler, we would loosely "schedule" somewhere to go
every week. It was fun to talk about what and where and with whom. At
17, Cameron has his own schedule. Duncan (9) is more of a
homebody---likes to have visitors a lot.
Our lives are filled with music---that's not something I need to
schedule! <g>
Library happens in spurts---sometimes several times in one week,
sometimes not at all for several weeks.
-==-=-=-=-=-
The other thing I'd like to do is read
aloud every day. My thought is that I'd do shower, breakfast, etc,
then some housework, and around 10 we'll do a story.
-=-=-=-=-
If the kids enjoy that, cool! We're in the middle of Harry Potter right
now.
~Kelly
Deb Lewis
I seek to find those "shining moments of unschooling" and they seem
so few and far between or are clouded over with the pessimism,
apathy and selfishness that seems to be abounding in this house.
You're just in a rough patch. But you as the mom are going to have to be
the one to turn things around. It's too much for your kids. Your kids
will mirror your attitude. When your attitude changes you will begin to
see a change in your children. It will take time though.
Right now you feel neglected, ignored, disrespect, overwhelmed and *so do
they*.
Spend time with your kids doing really pleasant things. Snuggle them
while they watch TV. Smile at them, tell them you love them. Tell them
things will get better. Make their favorite thing to eat.
When you're going to do the dishes say "I want to do these dishes so they
won't be in my way later when I make dinner." or whatever, don't say
"Look at this mess, I'm sick and tired of having to do everything around
here..." Be the helpful, patient, optimistic, caring person you're
hoping your kids will one day be.
Resist the urge to nag them. If you'd like help, ask when they're not
engaged in something else. If they say no, accept that and be sweet.
You will be modeling the kindness and patience they will adopt one day.
Be quick to help them when they ask for help from you. It will make a
difference in how they think about helping.
Everyone who is now a seasoned unschooler had to make adjustments to
their thinking and expectations. Everyone had things to workout in order
to get to a great life. But it's worth it.
Your kids love you and they want you to be happy. They don't want to
feel badly and they don't want you to feel badly about them. It's just
too big a chasm for kids to climb out of on their own. You have to be
the Sherpa. <g>
***Is it so wrong for mom to have her needs met as well? ***
Not at all. But it isn't right to expect our children to meet our needs.
They're kids. You have to meet them and you can choose to do that in a
way that will hurt your relationship with your kids or in a way that will
build it.
Your ex husband really should be helping you, or he should get out and
let you give that room out in exchange for domestic help.
Try to get out once a week. Go to a friends house for a couple of hours
and just sit and drink tea. Wander around a garden center. Go feed
ducks. Let your head get quiet.
Go somewhere with your kids, just go out in the yard and dig a hole and
fill it with water and play. Ride your bikes to the Dairy Queen. Go to
the park and play Frisbee.
Lately you've had unhappy times together and you need to replace them
with better ones.
Change your ideas about housework. Do the minimum, do it when you feel
like it, don't think like a martyr, find ways to make the minimum easier.
Really, paper plates have saved us during busy, stressful times. Don't
make more work for yourself. Be kind to yourself.
***I can't deal with this chaos much longer***
The chaos starts in your head. Dishes can be washed, even a big pile
can be done in an hour. Washing machines and dryers do almost all the
work of laundry and clean clothes can sit in laundry baskets forever if
they have to.
I do dishes only when I want to. I do them when everyone else is happily
engaged in something they love. I close the kitchen door, take off my
shoes, light a candle, pour a glass of wine or a cup of tea, turn on some
music. I use soap that smells good and makes great bubbles. It's an
hour my mind can wander anywhere it wants.
Good luck Michelle. I'm hoping you're feeling better about everything by
now.
Deb Lewis
so few and far between or are clouded over with the pessimism,
apathy and selfishness that seems to be abounding in this house.
You're just in a rough patch. But you as the mom are going to have to be
the one to turn things around. It's too much for your kids. Your kids
will mirror your attitude. When your attitude changes you will begin to
see a change in your children. It will take time though.
Right now you feel neglected, ignored, disrespect, overwhelmed and *so do
they*.
Spend time with your kids doing really pleasant things. Snuggle them
while they watch TV. Smile at them, tell them you love them. Tell them
things will get better. Make their favorite thing to eat.
When you're going to do the dishes say "I want to do these dishes so they
won't be in my way later when I make dinner." or whatever, don't say
"Look at this mess, I'm sick and tired of having to do everything around
here..." Be the helpful, patient, optimistic, caring person you're
hoping your kids will one day be.
Resist the urge to nag them. If you'd like help, ask when they're not
engaged in something else. If they say no, accept that and be sweet.
You will be modeling the kindness and patience they will adopt one day.
Be quick to help them when they ask for help from you. It will make a
difference in how they think about helping.
Everyone who is now a seasoned unschooler had to make adjustments to
their thinking and expectations. Everyone had things to workout in order
to get to a great life. But it's worth it.
Your kids love you and they want you to be happy. They don't want to
feel badly and they don't want you to feel badly about them. It's just
too big a chasm for kids to climb out of on their own. You have to be
the Sherpa. <g>
***Is it so wrong for mom to have her needs met as well? ***
Not at all. But it isn't right to expect our children to meet our needs.
They're kids. You have to meet them and you can choose to do that in a
way that will hurt your relationship with your kids or in a way that will
build it.
Your ex husband really should be helping you, or he should get out and
let you give that room out in exchange for domestic help.
Try to get out once a week. Go to a friends house for a couple of hours
and just sit and drink tea. Wander around a garden center. Go feed
ducks. Let your head get quiet.
Go somewhere with your kids, just go out in the yard and dig a hole and
fill it with water and play. Ride your bikes to the Dairy Queen. Go to
the park and play Frisbee.
Lately you've had unhappy times together and you need to replace them
with better ones.
Change your ideas about housework. Do the minimum, do it when you feel
like it, don't think like a martyr, find ways to make the minimum easier.
Really, paper plates have saved us during busy, stressful times. Don't
make more work for yourself. Be kind to yourself.
***I can't deal with this chaos much longer***
The chaos starts in your head. Dishes can be washed, even a big pile
can be done in an hour. Washing machines and dryers do almost all the
work of laundry and clean clothes can sit in laundry baskets forever if
they have to.
I do dishes only when I want to. I do them when everyone else is happily
engaged in something they love. I close the kitchen door, take off my
shoes, light a candle, pour a glass of wine or a cup of tea, turn on some
music. I use soap that smells good and makes great bubbles. It's an
hour my mind can wander anywhere it wants.
Good luck Michelle. I'm hoping you're feeling better about everything by
now.
Deb Lewis
Daniel MacIntyre
I hope you're not giving that information to anyone. Missouri State
law says you have to document it - not report it.
law says you have to document it - not report it.
On 7/15/05, herbshed <herbshed@...> wrote:
> My children have started acting at the local theatre. How would I log that?
> Sometimes they have a lot of script reading to do, other times none at all.
> In Missouri, we have to keep track of hours by subject (1000 hours with a
> minimum of 600 core hours required)...and the more hours logged in, the
> better. We really love unschooling, but I just really have a hard time
> figuring out what subjects to put their activities under.
> And it doesn't matter that they are learning if I don't have the hours
> documented to back it up :(
>
> ~S~
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
Daniel
(Amy is doing a half marathon for Team in Training
Anyone who wants to help can do so by going to:
http://www.active.com/donate/fundraise/tntgmoAMacint )
J. Stauffer
<<<equal respect for autonomous beings.>>>
<<< rules>>>
I think the problem comes when people see these things as being mutually
exclusive. I don't know of any groups, even those that function by
consensus, that have no rules...no guiding principles.
But there is a huge difference between rules or guiding principles that
everyone agrees to, that everyone helped come up with, and dictates from
authority, such as finish this chore before lunch or you won't eat.
I'm not saying that I have never gotten into a power struggle with my
children and resorted to some fairly juvenile behavior to "make" them do
what I "needed" (read that wanted) them to do.
But when I make my daily goal to be a loving mom, a place of warmth and
refuge in this world, I find that usually the kitchen still gets cleaned,
the dog gets fed, etc..
I spend a lot of time thinking about glitches we are having as a family and
how can I contribute to a happier, smoother running household and stick to
my goal of being a loving mom.
Julie S.
Julie S.
<<< rules>>>
I think the problem comes when people see these things as being mutually
exclusive. I don't know of any groups, even those that function by
consensus, that have no rules...no guiding principles.
But there is a huge difference between rules or guiding principles that
everyone agrees to, that everyone helped come up with, and dictates from
authority, such as finish this chore before lunch or you won't eat.
I'm not saying that I have never gotten into a power struggle with my
children and resorted to some fairly juvenile behavior to "make" them do
what I "needed" (read that wanted) them to do.
But when I make my daily goal to be a loving mom, a place of warmth and
refuge in this world, I find that usually the kitchen still gets cleaned,
the dog gets fed, etc..
I spend a lot of time thinking about glitches we are having as a family and
how can I contribute to a happier, smoother running household and stick to
my goal of being a loving mom.
Julie S.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robyn Coburn" <dezigna@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] A somewhat reluctant post
> <<<<<< your being the General of your little Army>>>>
> <<<<to set a good example for my family helps>>>
>
> Sherry,
>
> There is NOT ONE single parenting or procedural suggestion that you have
> made that is not a barrier to Unschooling with joy. Whatever example you
> are
> setting it is not one of equal respect for autonomous beings.
>
> I hope that no-one implements any of those authoritarian, parent-centered,
> limiting, anti-freedom recommendations.
>
> Instead, I *hope* all of you who think any of this stuff are stepping
> stones
> towards Unschooling, and especially Sherry, Cathy and ~S~ , go directly to
> www.Sandradodd.com/unschooling and read the whole website, but especially
> the Chores link, before posting anything other than questions here again.
> I'm not a moderator here - it's just a suggestion. Believe me there are
> plenty of people whose writings are there who have struggled with the
> realities of housecleaning without resorting to assigning tasks with
> punishments for non-compliance.
>
> You might also get some alternative ideas to traditional punitive and
> coercive parenting at Danielle Conger's blog site also
> http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
> Try especially her "Principles instead of Rules" article.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
>
>
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
J. Stauffer
<<<Routine and structure sound like homeschooling - and not far off a
curriculum as well. I don't have any rules and I don't live in chaos
either. My children have made agreements with me and in turn I make
agreements with them and we try - mostly- to live in harmony and respect
each others belongings and space.>>>
But if you and your children have made agreements, you do have a bit of
routine and structure. Not imposed BY YOU but there none the less.
Julie S.
curriculum as well. I don't have any rules and I don't live in chaos
either. My children have made agreements with me and in turn I make
agreements with them and we try - mostly- to live in harmony and respect
each others belongings and space.>>>
But if you and your children have made agreements, you do have a bit of
routine and structure. Not imposed BY YOU but there none the less.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "coolcrew" <grayfamily9@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] A somewhat reluctant post
> <<<< Unschooling does not mean no rules either. >>>>
>>
>> Yeah it actually kinda does.>******************
>
> Yes I agree. I am a bit mystified by some of the stuff I m reading to be
> honest. Routine and structure sound like homeschooling - and not far off a
> curriculum as well. I don't have any rules and I don't live in chaos
> either. My children have made agreements with me and in turn I make
> agreements with them and we try - mostly- to live in harmony and respect
> each others belongings and space. I don't agree that a13 year old is not
> capable of helping out either but I would not ask a child to do what I
> couldn't do myself. I donot have even owned a timer so nothing we do is
> ever timed.
>
> Ruth
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> Yahoo! Groups Links
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