mamaaj2000

Hi all,

My 4.5 ds has always been very verbal, which is mostly great. But he
plays lots of games with language at our expense. He's more interested
in telling a good story than telling the truth sometimes, he'll argue
for the fun of it quite often, he'll whine about what's on tv instead
of changing the channel himself, etc. All ways of getting
attention...negative attention, unfortunately. He's gotten so in to
the habit of doing these things that I want to try to find some
alternative games for him to play. (Reading this over, I know it
sounds like normal kid stuff. It's the quantity of it that overwhelms
me. And it's waaay past my bedtime, so I'm probably sounding more
negative than I normally would...)

He went through a period of telling lots of jokes, esp. knock knock
jokes. We've looked at web sites for them and I just bought a book,
but it seemed like a lot of them were over his head. I thought he
would like tongue twisters, but he gives up very easily on them. I
just got a book of nursery rhymes with lots of pictures. He's reading
a few words now and starting to guess at what words might be, so I
thought he might want to read/recite the rhymes to his little brother
and sister.

Anyway, I'm looking other ideas of things to do with him while I'm
changing lots of diapers or ploughing a path through the toys in the
living room! We haven't played "I spy" in a while, so I'll give that a
try. Stuff like that.

Night night!

--aj

Robyn Coburn

My 4.5 ds has always been very verbal, which is mostly great. But he
plays lots of games with language at our expense. He's more interested
in telling a good story than telling the truth sometimes, he'll argue
for the fun of it quite often, he'll whine about what's on tv instead
of changing the channel himself, etc. All ways of getting
attention...negative attention, unfortunately. He's gotten so in to
the habit of doing these things that I want to try to find some
alternative games for him to play. (Reading this over, I know it
sounds like normal kid stuff. It's the quantity of it that overwhelms
me. And it's waaay past my bedtime, so I'm probably sounding more
negative than I normally would...)

He went through a period of telling lots of jokes, esp. knock knock
jokes. We've looked at web sites for them and I just bought a book,
but it seemed like a lot of them were over his head. I thought he
would like tongue twisters, but he gives up very easily on them. I
just got a book of nursery rhymes with lots of pictures. He's reading
a few words now and starting to guess at what words might be, so I
thought he might want to read/recite the rhymes to his little brother
and sister.

Anyway, I'm looking other ideas of things to do with him while I'm
changing lots of diapers or ploughing a path through the toys in the
living room! We haven't played "I spy" in a while, so I'll give that a
try. Stuff like that.

Night night!

--aj






Yahoo! Groups Links






--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.0 - Release Date: 5/30/2005


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.0 - Release Date: 5/30/2005

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<telling a good story than telling the truth sometimes, he'll argue
for the fun of it quite often, he'll whine about what's on tv instead
of changing the channel himself, etc. All ways of getting
attention...negative attention, unfortunately.>>>>>

I know, aj, because I am on both lists, that you are looking for "practical
suggestions" from U/B. I don't know that I have any.

But this concept, or phrase, of "negative attention" is something that I
feel called to bite on. It seems to have popped up a couple of times
recently on different lists.

Firstly it seems like you are choosing to ascribe a negative desire or
negative character trait to you smart, witty, verbal, humorous son. A lie is
only a lie if he is actually trying to deceive rather than say, entertain or
fantasize - if he expects you to believe it and thus act on it. Jayn talks
about her imaginary friend, Googly, a lot - but she and I know Googly is
pretend (or maybe a non-corporeal spirit guide)....

Are you really trying to say that he wants a negative response - to make you
angry or irritated or impatient? If that is the case, I would say that that
is a call for *you* to give him a positive and loving response and to get to
the bottom of why he is feeling that need.

Or looking at "negative attention" as a parental choice, instead of a
child's desire, you can still choose neutrality or compassion. "Whine" is a
negative word. Does he even realize that he sounds unpleasant, or is it a
sign that he is close to overwhelmed, or tired, or hungry, or lonely, or
left out, or something else specific to his situation? When Jayn sounds that
gratingly high pitched way, I choose to regard it as one of the above,
rather than a deliberately chosen strategy for attaining some goal. You can
choose to respond neutrally, to the underlying need, without taking it
personally. Maybe he just wants to have a conversation with someone, and the
crappy tv show seems like a good starting point.

An adult raconteur with a cache of good stories, and perhaps a propensity to
play devil's advocate in a discussion, can be the perfect and most sought
after guest at a dinner party.

<<<< And it's waaay past my bedtime, so I'm probably sounding more
negative than I normally would...)>>>>

Umm, you weren't "whining" by any chance....;)

Since you are usually so wonderfully positive and inspiring in your writing,
I would have to agree that you are probably tired!

<<<<<<Anyway, I'm looking other ideas of things to do with him while I'm
changing lots of diapers or ploughing a path through the toys in the
living room! We haven't played "I spy" in a while, so I'll give that a
try. Stuff like that.>>>>>

Would inviting him to follow you around and tell you one of his stories
while you are doing this stuff help?

I just want everyone in the world to *stop* saying variations of, "my kid
wants negative attention." What they *want* is loving attention. Sigh.

Robyn L. Coburn


--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.0 - Release Date: 5/30/2005

Robyn Coburn

Sorry about the non-reply! Hit send without realizing it.

Robyn L. Coburn

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.0 - Release Date: 5/30/2005

soggyboysmom

> I just want everyone in the world to *stop* saying variations
>of, "my kid
> wants negative attention." What they *want* is loving attention.
Sigh.
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
>
Unfortunately, many kids will take whatever attention they can get
because they don't get much of any of it - positive interactions or
negative interactions. "If I set fire to the sofa, they'll react and
they'll have to recognize that I am here!"

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:
> Firstly it seems like you are choosing to ascribe a negative
desire or
> negative character trait to you smart, witty, verbal, humorous
son. A lie is
> only a lie if he is actually trying to deceive rather than say,
entertain or
> fantasize - if he expects you to believe it and thus act on it.

Robyn, I struggle to know how else to describe it. He and I were
driving together and went past where dh and Caroline were. I called
attention to it and then laughed as we were driving away at
something I'd seen Caroline do. Mikey then said what are laughing
at? I told him and he said he hadn't seen them! I asked him why he
would say that when I knew he had. He kept insisting he hadn't seen
them, but then said something about what she was wearing, so I had
no doubt that he'd seen them.

Before I let go of tv controls, he would get upset at the end of a
show and say "I want to watch something else." I let go of controls
a year ago and it took over 6 months before he stopped yelling and
arguing about watching something else. I tried every response I
could think of, but it just took time. After he stopped fighting
with me about watching something else, he'd get upset because I
hadn't told him what was coming on next, or because I had
interrupted a commercial to try to tell him what was coming on
next...or something. I think it was a combination of wanting some
interaction at the end of a show and lots of residual anger at us
for when we did control the tv.

We've had another breakthrough in the "what's coming next" issue
lately. I keep sitting down to nurse Evan without grabbing the
remote. So Mikey has had to choose whether to sit still and complain
or actually get up and bring the remote to me or use it himself. I
kept it calm and level, not trying to make it negative and it's
working pretty well most of the time. If he does start to complain,
I smile at him and he remembers to go find the remote. I don't think
this would have worked 6 months ago, but he was ready to move on now.

The more positive and gentle we are with him, the more we interact
with him before he really really NEEDS it, the more pleasant he is.
But with the baby and a 2 yr old struggling with the existance of
said baby, he's not getting enough attention and yes, really does
turn to behaviors more likely to get a response from us, even if
it's negative.


> An adult raconteur with a cache of good stories, and perhaps a
propensity to
> play devil's advocate in a discussion, can be the perfect and most
sought
> after guest at a dinner party.

Yes, he is wonderful company much of the time. And I want to find
ways to help him use his talents for good!

> Would inviting him to follow you around and tell you one of his
stories
> while you are doing this stuff help?

Yep, we do that a bunch, but he's resistant to following me to other
rooms because I asked too many times!

He's wonderful. I know that much of this is because of the controls
we used to have--and a few that are still there, esp. from dh. I
think some of it just a matter of time and of having enough warm
loving interaction that he doesn't feel starved for it.

And now I need to go interact with him!! He's covering the
downstairs with a yarn web and a dump truck got tangled up and needs
to be freed.

thanks,
aj

soggyboysmom

--- In [email protected], "mamaaj2000"
<mamaaj2000@y...> wrote:
> And now I need to go interact with him!! He's covering the
> downstairs with a yarn web and a dump truck got tangled up and needs
> to be freed.
>
> thanks,
> aj
LOL! I so relate to that one! When we first moved in to our house, DH
and I were madly unpacking and organizing (we closed Dec 15, moved in
Dec 16, and had the ILs at our house for Christmas because they were
moving Jan 15!) In the process, DS found a yarn ball of bright red
yarn. And proceeded to thread it everywhere - doorknobs, stair rails,
furniture, boxes, down the hall and around, a grand spiderweb of yarn.
Took him a good several hours to get it "just right". Then he handed
me the bit left and chortled with glee as I followed it around and
wrapped it all back up onto the ball. He was 3ish at the time and in
hindsight I think it was a way for him to explore and connect with the
new territory.

Sandrewmama

We often play:

20 Questions

"Jinx You Owe Me a Taco" - while reading familiar story books like
Dr. Seuss, Dd tries to say the rhyming word at the same time as us
and then erupts in a loud "JINX, you owe me a taco" and hefty giggles.

I Spy

The Alphabet Game (in the car)

Singing Songs


-- chris

Robyn Coburn

<<<<< Robyn, I struggle to know how else to describe it. He and I were
driving together and went past where dh and Caroline were. I called
attention to it and then laughed as we were driving away at
something I'd seen Caroline do. Mikey then said what are laughing
at? I told him and he said he hadn't seen them! I asked him why he
would say that when I knew he had. He kept insisting he hadn't seen
them, but then said something about what she was wearing, so I had
no doubt that he'd seen them. >>>>>

Maybe he hadn't seen what Caroline did, even if he had seen them. Sometimes
Jayn, even now still at 5.5 and certainly at 4.5, gets confused about some
words and tenses. She will say things like "bigger" when she means
"smaller", or "yesterday" when she means "tomorrow". Sometimes she hasn't
the vocabulary for detail, but will find she wants to clarify and searches
for the phrase. In those instances she often reacts negatively to my
suggestions of other ways to express.

However, I'm looking at this story in the context of some of the other stuff
you were saying, and I have a theory - it may be bunk, but it may be
something to consider. Maybe Mikey feels that he is not getting sufficient
amounts of your attention because of his siblings, so he wanted to "pretend
them away" in this instance rather than have a conversation with you about
Caroline. In this way by saying he "hadn't seen them" maybe he was trying a
code for, "I wish you hadn't seen them and gotten distracted from me" or
something similar.

If I can't support Jayn in her version of "facts" because she is incorrect,
I still try hard not to make her feel in the wrong. I will be non-committal
in my response. In something like the above situation I would probably have
said "Oh" and moved on to the other topics. Jayn would be likely to then say
"Only kidding, I did see them" with a great giggle, but if she didn't it
wouldn't really change the conversation right then. The best time to ask her
*why* she said she hadn't seen them would be later at night while having a
snuggle together.

<<<<Before I let go of tv controls, he would get upset at the end of a
show and say "I want to watch something else." >>>>

Do you mean he would want to change the channel because he wasn't pleased
with whatever the next program was, or was he upset that the prior show had
ended?

Jayn has only just recently become interested in using the remote control
herself, since she now recognizes all the numbers. Usually she still prefers
one of us to change the channel for her. ("I'm too floppy" is her code for
either "I'm tired" or "I just want some pampering for a moment").

<<<<< The more positive and gentle we are with him, the more we interact
with him before he really really NEEDS it, the more pleasant he is.
But with the baby and a 2 yr old struggling with the existance of
said baby, he's not getting enough attention and yes, really does
turn to behaviors more likely to get a response from us, even if
it's negative. >>>>>

Your response does not have to be negative.

When Jayn in a sudden fury calls me "you bitch" - usually because her sock
has gotten tangled or some other minor glitch absolutely not related to my
actions - saying "that hurts my feelings" hasn't penetrated. So I decided
every time she did that she would get ("oh no, look out") a raspberry blown
on her tummy. Frustration instantly becomes hilarity. We have had a couple
of "bitch"/raspberry festivals, and now I see her visibly stop and hold back
from calling me the name. Hugs ensue.

I must say that in the throes of feeling annoyed was *not* when I came up
with the raspberry idea. It was an inspiration that came to me in a quiet
moment of reflection on the problem. I was basically asking myself, "what
loving (as in showing love) action can I take when Jayn does this particular
unlovable thing?"

I've found that I am more serene if I have a plan. What are the specific
behaviors that seem to call out a negative emotion and response from you? If
you are stuck, maybe we can all brainstorm some positive loving actions
instead.

Robyn L. Coburn

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.3 - Release Date: 5/31/2005

jmr1290

Might not be the same, but my child is one of those "difficult"
children, always arguing, always coming up with all kinds of ways to
aggravate me. Somebody suggested a book, _Try and Make Me_ by Ray Levy
et al, and it is being a life-saver. I'm on my second reading of it,
trying to get it to sink in fully, and in the process am learning some
things about *myself. Some kids (people) need to have lots of control
over what's going on, and kids can sometimes easily manipulate their
parents into frustration and anger.

One of the funniest things my son has done was when I quietly said
"you always have to argue with everything I say, don't you?", and he
yelled "no, I d........", then closed his mouth and turned away.

Joy

--- In [email protected], "mamaaj2000"
<mamaaj2000@y...> wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
> <dezigna@c...> wrote:
> > Firstly it seems like you are choosing to ascribe a negative
> desire or
> > negative character trait to you smart, witty, verbal, humorous
> son. A lie is
> > only a lie if he is actually trying to deceive rather than say,
> entertain or
> > fantasize - if he expects you to believe it and thus act on it.
>
> Robyn, I struggle to know how else to describe it. He and I were
> driving together and went past where dh and Caroline were. I called
> attention to it and then laughed as we were driving away at
> something I'd seen Caroline do. Mikey then said what are laughing
> at? I told him and he said he hadn't seen them! I asked him why he
> would say that when I knew he had. He kept insisting he hadn't seen
> them, but then said something about what she was wearing, so I had
> no doubt that he'd seen them.
>
> Before I let go of tv controls, he would get upset at the end of a
> show and say "I want to watch something else." I let go of controls
> a year ago and it took over 6 months before he stopped yelling and
> arguing about watching something else. I tried every response I
>

Robyn Coburn

<<<<<<< Somebody suggested a book, _Try and Make Me_ by Ray Levy
et al, and it is being a life-saver. I'm on my second reading of it,>>>>>>

I'm always interested in books that are recommended, especially in order to
add to our future book discussions on Always Unschooled.

However after reading the summaries, Editorial and reader reviews of this
book at Amazon, I would have to suspect very strongly that it is not truly
Unschooling compatible - even though it sounds like it is very liberal *in
comparison* to ordinary parenting texts.

Apparently one of the recommendations is physical restraining. At
www.naturalchild.org there is an article by Jan Hunt, "The dangers of
holding therapy" that might be worth reading for an alternative point of
view about this practice.

I have recently read "The Explosive Child", a book oft recommended for those
with inflexible children. I would not hesitate to recommend it. I felt like
the ideas and encouragement to be deeply thoughtful about *why* we feel
called to tell our children what to do in any instance are useful for all
people seeking to be mindful Unschooling parents. The ideas in that book for
regular parents with challenging youngsters seem to be where Unschooling
parents *begin* with all of our children.

Robyn L. Coburn

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.5.1 - Release Date: 6/2/2005

Angela S.

<<<Might not be the same, but my child is one of those "difficult"
children, always arguing, always coming up with all kinds of ways to
aggravate me.>>>



I don't think that seeing your children in this light is the best way to
look at it if you are concerned with your relationship with your child. You
might feel challenged trying to meet his needs, but labeling him as
*difficult* isn't going to help that. All kids need and want attention.
Some kids will work much harder than others to get the attention that they
*need*. Would you rather he didn't let you know what his needs are? To let
them go unfulfilled?



Also, A child can't argue with himself. Perhaps you might look at the way
you speak to him that might cause him to want to disagree with you. Often
people are so entrenched in the way they speak to *children* that they don't
even see it as negative. Think to yourself, would you speak to a good
friend that way? Or even a perfect stranger? If you are trying to be
overly controlling, your kids will call you on it. IF you aren't being
reasonable to them, they will call you on it. Do you have good reasons for
the things you ask him? Can he understand them? I also don't see you
backing down from an argument yourself, if you are saying to your child,
"you always have to argue with everything I say, don't you?". That seems to
be baiting him. He can't win no matter what he answers. Maybe if you had
let it drop before that, it wouldn't have come to that.



If none of this applies to you, then leave it. If something that I wrote
can help you I am glad. Sometimes it's hard to confront our own
inadequacies but whenever I have done this myself, I have grown a lot as a
person and a parent. I wish you well.







Angela

game-enthusiast@....



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Danielle Conger

Angela S. wrote:

><<<Might not be the same, but my child is one of those "difficult"
>children, always arguing, always coming up with all kinds of ways to
>aggravate me.>>>
>
>
>
>I don't think that seeing your children in this light is the best way to
>look at it if you are concerned with your relationship with your child. You
>might feel challenged trying to meet his needs, but labeling him as
>*difficult* isn't going to help that. All kids need and want attention.
>Some kids will work much harder than others to get the attention that they
>*need*. Would you rather he didn't let you know what his needs are? To let
>them go unfulfilled?
>
I totally agree with Angela--how we see our children is reflected back
at them. For what it's worth, I had an article about exactly this kind
of issue in a recent issue of Live Free, Learn Free. I've posted it
online now that the new issue's out, if you'd like to read it:
http://danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Highneed.html It may provide some
insight or, if nothing else, make it quite clear how *I* think about
this issue. ;)

--
~~Danielle
Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (5)
http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

"With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

mamaaj2000

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:

> I must say that in the throes of feeling annoyed was *not* when I
came up
> with the raspberry idea. It was an inspiration that came to me in
a quiet
> moment of reflection on the problem. I was basically asking
myself, "what
> loving (as in showing love) action can I take when Jayn does this
particular
> unlovable thing?"

That's exactly it. Mikey is strong, independent in thought and very
tenacious. Usually great qualities and I'm glad that he had such a
strong reaction to us trying to control tv, food, etc. when he was
2, since it led to us finding radical unschooling. We have a ways to
go on deschooling/moving toward more gentle parenting, esp. dh.

With the end of tv shows, he would worry that I was going to turn
the tv off and so would hurry to tell me he wanted to watch another
show before I had a chance to say anything to him. Part of it was
that it took a long time before he trusted that I wasn't going to
try to turn the tv off, but part of it is that it became a habit or
a ritual even, to try to start an argument about whether the tv
stayed on or off. After months of saying "of course, sweetie" it's
hard to stay patient. While he's stopped doing that, this week, when
I tell him what shows are coming up next and he picks one, if I
don't change the channel immediately, he gets mad at me. "I said,
George Shrinks!"

I think he's looking for interaction AND he wants to make sure that
if there's an argument, he's going to win it! One thing I can do
some of the time is to go sit down with him at the end of the show
and start interacting with him before or right as he's ready to
talk. I can't always do that with a baby and a toddler, but
hopefully doing it some of the time can help break the habit of
trying to find something to argue about!

Playing word games with him is something I can do if the baby is
nursing, we're driving, any time. They usually break the tenseness,
fulfill his need for interaction and bring us closer together.
That's why I was looking for more. I'd forgotten about "I spy". I
don't remember playing that as a kid and I always forget about it,
but it's just the kind of game that gets us connecting when it feels
like we're pushing each other away.
>
> I've found that I am more serene if I have a plan. What are the
specific
> behaviors that seem to call out a negative emotion and response
from you? If
> you are stuck, maybe we can all brainstorm some positive loving
actions
> instead.

One that I'm stuck on is about dinner time. We fought about that
when he was two and haven't tried to make him have dinner with the
family for about 1.5 years. He doesn't eat whatever the family is
having. If he is hungry when the rest of us are eating, I'll make
something for him. He reminds me tensely that he's going to eat in
the living room, even if I've already got his plate, napkin, fork
etc. in the living room waiting for him.

But then he's not happy because he wants interaction. Mommy, I need
you to change the channel. I don't like any of the shows on right
now--every time dinner's at 6pm. Takes 5 minutes to decide to watch
what's on or watch a tape, then takes a long time to decide which.
Then wants to talk about the show by yelling from the living room to
the dining room.

All of this while I'm trying to eat. I feel like it's a power
struggle and winning or losing are both bad solutions. I've worked
on trying to settle things ahead of time and asking him to walk into
the dining room to ask for anything he needs instead of yelling for
me.

In the last month, he's actually verbalized that he wants to be with
us, but he's not ready to come into the living room quite yet. I'm
not sure how to help him. He did ask if we could all eat in the
living room last night. We were already eating and baby Evan was
fussing so I couldn't do much about it then, but we can sometimes.

It's 3:53, so I'm going to stop typing and go sit down next to him
right now!

thanks,
aj

Rod Thomas

I know ya'll don't condone coercive parenting, or whatever you call it,
and I don't really either, but I am interested in your answer to this
one. I'm exhausted just reading this interaction.

-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of mamaaj2000
Sent: Friday, June 03, 2005 2:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Loving re/actions was Ideas for word
play

--- In [email protected], "Robyn Coburn"
<dezigna@c...> wrote:

> I must say that in the throes of feeling annoyed was *not* when I
came up
> with the raspberry idea. It was an inspiration that came to me in
a quiet
> moment of reflection on the problem. I was basically asking
myself, "what
> loving (as in showing love) action can I take when Jayn does this
particular
> unlovable thing?"

That's exactly it. Mikey is strong, independent in thought and very
tenacious. Usually great qualities and I'm glad that he had such a
strong reaction to us trying to control tv, food, etc. when he was
2, since it led to us finding radical unschooling. We have a ways to
go on deschooling/moving toward more gentle parenting, esp. dh.

With the end of tv shows, he would worry that I was going to turn
the tv off and so would hurry to tell me he wanted to watch another
show before I had a chance to say anything to him. Part of it was
that it took a long time before he trusted that I wasn't going to
try to turn the tv off, but part of it is that it became a habit or
a ritual even, to try to start an argument about whether the tv
stayed on or off. After months of saying "of course, sweetie" it's
hard to stay patient. While he's stopped doing that, this week, when
I tell him what shows are coming up next and he picks one, if I
don't change the channel immediately, he gets mad at me. "I said,
George Shrinks!"

I think he's looking for interaction AND he wants to make sure that
if there's an argument, he's going to win it! One thing I can do
some of the time is to go sit down with him at the end of the show
and start interacting with him before or right as he's ready to
talk. I can't always do that with a baby and a toddler, but
hopefully doing it some of the time can help break the habit of
trying to find something to argue about!

Playing word games with him is something I can do if the baby is
nursing, we're driving, any time. They usually break the tenseness,
fulfill his need for interaction and bring us closer together.
That's why I was looking for more. I'd forgotten about "I spy". I
don't remember playing that as a kid and I always forget about it,
but it's just the kind of game that gets us connecting when it feels
like we're pushing each other away.
>
> I've found that I am more serene if I have a plan. What are the
specific
> behaviors that seem to call out a negative emotion and response
from you? If
> you are stuck, maybe we can all brainstorm some positive loving
actions
> instead.

One that I'm stuck on is about dinner time. We fought about that
when he was two and haven't tried to make him have dinner with the
family for about 1.5 years. He doesn't eat whatever the family is
having. If he is hungry when the rest of us are eating, I'll make
something for him. He reminds me tensely that he's going to eat in
the living room, even if I've already got his plate, napkin, fork
etc. in the living room waiting for him.

But then he's not happy because he wants interaction. Mommy, I need
you to change the channel. I don't like any of the shows on right
now--every time dinner's at 6pm. Takes 5 minutes to decide to watch
what's on or watch a tape, then takes a long time to decide which.
Then wants to talk about the show by yelling from the living room to
the dining room.

All of this while I'm trying to eat. I feel like it's a power
struggle and winning or losing are both bad solutions. I've worked
on trying to settle things ahead of time and asking him to walk into
the dining room to ask for anything he needs instead of yelling for
me.

In the last month, he's actually verbalized that he wants to be with
us, but he's not ready to come into the living room quite yet. I'm
not sure how to help him. He did ask if we could all eat in the
living room last night. We were already eating and baby Evan was
fussing so I couldn't do much about it then, but we can sometimes.

It's 3:53, so I'm going to stop typing and go sit down next to him
right now!

thanks,
aj






Yahoo! Groups Links

jmr1290

That's a very good article. I just recently decided to go ahead and
"homeschool" my son, and haven't read a whole lot about it yet.
Unschooling, in *some* ways, seems like a direction we need to go, but
I know from long experience that most of the time, he wants to
skateboard or watch TV more than anything else. The reality of life is
that there are things that have to be done, and you can't always do
just what you want all the time. (heh, I can imagine just that
statement will spark all kinds of angry argument from y'all).

I often think of a boy and his mother I observed at a New Age type of
expo. To make a long story short, the mother had this air of detached
patience and serenity, all the while the boy was careening around
disturbing everybody's carefully placed flyers, making lots of noise,
swinging tai chi swords (then other people had to forcibly remove him
from the swords), and just really disrupting everybody else's (except
the mother's) experience.

Can't think of it at the moment, but there was an incident where my
son made it very plain that he was glad I stepped in and made him do
something he *said* he didn't want to do (for his own good). Kids - or
at least *some* kids - really do want and need guidance (some demand
it in one way while verbally demanding that you leave them alone).
Some people try to control everything the kid does, and other people
turn the kid loose to figure out the world on their own. Like just
about everything else, the best solution is probably somewhere in the
middle. I am *far* from being a model mother; all I can do is keep on
observing and learning, and adjusting as I go. Nobody does a perfect
job of parenting, and I sure hope I never get to the point where I
think I have all the answers for everybody.

Joy

--- In [email protected], Danielle Conger
<danielle.conger@v...> wrote:
> Angela S. wrote:
>
> ><<<Might not be the same, but my child is one of those "difficult"
> >children, always arguing, always coming up with all kinds of ways
to
> >aggravate me.>>>
> >
> >
> >
> >I don't think that seeing your children in this light is the best
way to
> >look at it if you are concerned with your relationship with your
child. You
> >might feel challenged trying to meet his needs, but labeling him as
> >*difficult* isn't going to help that. All kids need and want
attention.
> >Some kids will work much harder than others to get the attention
that they
> >*need*. Would you rather he didn't let you know what his needs
are? To let
> >them go unfulfilled?
> >
> I totally agree with Angela--how we see our children is reflected
back
> at them. For what it's worth, I had an article about exactly this
kind
> of issue in a recent issue of Live Free, Learn Free. I've posted it
> online now that the new issue's out, if you'd like to read it:
> http://danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Highneed.html It may provide
some
> insight or, if nothing else, make it quite clear how *I* think
about
> this issue. ;)
>
> --
> ~~Danielle
> Emily (7), Julia (6), Sam (5)
> http://www.danielleconger.com/Homeschool/Welcomehome.html
>
> ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
>
> "With our thoughts, we make the world." ~~Buddha

jlh44music

> Might not be the same, but my child is one of those "difficult"
children, always arguing, always coming up with all kinds of ways to
aggravate me. Somebody suggested a book, _Try and Make Me_ by Ray Levy
et al, and it is being a life-saver. I'm on my second reading of it,
trying to get it to sink in fully, and in the process am learning some
things about *myself. Some kids (people) need to have lots of control
over what's going on, and kids can sometimes easily manipulate their
parents into frustration and anger.>>>>>>

This sounds like my present boss! I'm leaving this job by the end of
June (to homeschool, not necessarily because of her). I'll have to give
a copy of this to the 2 people that will still be working for her!
Jann

Ren Allen

"The reality of life is
that there are things that have to be done, and you can't always do
just what you want all the time. (heh, I can imagine just that
statement will spark all kinds of angry argument from y'all)."


The reality of life is that people CHOOSE to do many things they
don't care as much for, because it makes sense, not because it must
be done.
There are many things I don't love as much as other things, but I
dislike the consequences even less.
I have children that choose their lives, but often choose difficult
things, contrary to common myth that says they will always choose
the easy way.

I'm curious why you would assume that the above statement would
spark angry argument? Questioning...yes. That's what this list is
for though....

As far as the New Age parenting example, that isn't anything I've
ever seen an unschooler advocate. Personal boundaries are something
I have helped my children be aware of from early on....ignoring
other people's peace and joy isn't part of unschooling or gentle
parenting.

Ren

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: jmr1290 <jomarex@...>


Unschooling, in *some* ways, seems like a direction we need to go, but
I know from long experience that most of the time, he wants to
skateboard or watch TV more than anything else.

-=-=-

What do YOU want to do more than anything else? Do you do that
exclusively? Or does it just seem that way?


-=-=-=-

The reality of life is that there are things that have to be done, and
you can't always do
just what you want all the time. (heh, I can imagine just that
statement will spark all kinds of angry argument from y'all).

-==-=-

Well, the REALITY is that I do exactly what I want all the time. I get
to choose. Sometimes I choose to do difficult or dirty or menial
thiungs. THAT's the reality. My children also get that reality---and
one has chosen to fold clothes right now.

-=-=-=-

I often think of a boy and his mother I observed at a New Age type of
expo. To make a long story short, the mother had this air of detached
patience and serenity, all the while the boy was careening around
disturbing everybody's carefully placed flyers, making lots of noise,
swinging tai chi swords (then other people had to forcibly remove him
from the swords), and just really disrupting everybody else's (except
the mother's) experience.

-=-=-

Was that mom unschooling? I doubt it. I know she wasn't a peaceful
parent. Peaceful parenting does not involve neglect---which is what you
witnessed.

-=-=-=-

Can't think of it at the moment, but there was an incident where my
son made it very plain that he was glad I stepped in and made him do
something he *said* he didn't want to do (for his own good). Kids - or
at least *some* kids - really do want and need guidance (some demand
it in one way while verbally demanding that you leave them alone).
Some people try to control everything the kid does, and other people
turn the kid loose to figure out the world on their own.
-=-=-=-

Some kids end up in prison because they're allowed to run all over
without regard for others' space.

Some prisoners return to prison because they learn to like the feeling
of relinquishing control and having all decisions made for them. School
does a good job of that too. So does the military.

Your post seemed very disdainful of unschooling and peaceful parenting.
Are you interested in either?

~Kelly

J. Stauffer

<<<<The reality of life is that there are things that have to be done, and
you can't always do
just what you want all the time. (heh, I can imagine just that
statement will spark all kinds of angry argument from y'all).>>>>

But there is such a continuum between just doing whatever you want all the time and having someone else telling you what to do and you resenting it.

At our house, we tried many, many ways of doing things before we found one that works, at least for now.

When I was planning to do most things myself and simply be satisfied if the kids chose on their own to help, I was worked into the ground, the house was a mess and the kids were bored senseless because I didn't have time to do fun stuff with them. The kids were making messes faster than I could clean them.

When I simply asked the kids to help when I needed it, we had a mixed response. I got lots of 'no' answers because the kids were busy and didn't want to stop to help. I felt angry and resentful and the house was still a mess and I was still to rushed to have fun with my kids.

We finally sat down and talked, all of us (5 kids and 2 adults), with everyone talking about what they like, don't like, priorities, etc.. The kids were able to understand that I need help around the house if I am going to have time to run to the library, park, friends' houses, club activities, etc.. They could hear that laundry still needs to be done, dishes washed, animals fed, grass mowed, etc..

I was able to understand that the kids felt like I was nagging at them to pick up throughout the day, that they didn't want to stop a game to do a mundane task.

We were all able to understand that dh, who is slightly compulsive, poor dear, would feel very frazzled walking into a messy, crazy, knee deep in projects house.

So we worked the idea of "the list". It took lots of tweaking to make sure everyone was happy. Basically, I make a "to do" list each night for everyone in the family. It consists of all the things we need to take care of the next day, fun stuff mixed with menial stuff, just things that need to get taken care of. If Adriane is needing to call a friend about a party, it is right on the list next to straighten the living room. I ask each kid to straighten one room each day and they are willing to do that.

This way all of our needs are being met. Does that mean that when Adriane straightens the living room she is doing it because she would rather do that than anything else? Probably not. But she was willing to compromise with me, to listen to me because I listen to her. She was able to see that she contributes to the straightening that needs to be done and is willing to be a part of the solution. She is happy because she knows what needs to be done first thing in the morning (ok at the crack of noon which is when she usually gets up<grin>) and is able to plan her day around that without interruptions from me.

Julie S.


----- Original Message -----
From: kbcdlovejo@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Ideas for word play


-----Original Message-----
From: jmr1290 <jomarex@...>


Unschooling, in *some* ways, seems like a direction we need to go, but
I know from long experience that most of the time, he wants to
skateboard or watch TV more than anything else.

-=-=-

What do YOU want to do more than anything else? Do you do that
exclusively? Or does it just seem that way?


-=-=-=-

The reality of life is that there are things that have to be done, and
you can't always do
just what you want all the time. (heh, I can imagine just that
statement will spark all kinds of angry argument from y'all).

-==-=-

Well, the REALITY is that I do exactly what I want all the time. I get
to choose. Sometimes I choose to do difficult or dirty or menial
thiungs. THAT's the reality. My children also get that reality---and
one has chosen to fold clothes right now.

-=-=-=-

I often think of a boy and his mother I observed at a New Age type of
expo. To make a long story short, the mother had this air of detached
patience and serenity, all the while the boy was careening around
disturbing everybody's carefully placed flyers, making lots of noise,
swinging tai chi swords (then other people had to forcibly remove him
from the swords), and just really disrupting everybody else's (except
the mother's) experience.

-=-=-

Was that mom unschooling? I doubt it. I know she wasn't a peaceful
parent. Peaceful parenting does not involve neglect---which is what you
witnessed.

-=-=-=-

Can't think of it at the moment, but there was an incident where my
son made it very plain that he was glad I stepped in and made him do
something he *said* he didn't want to do (for his own good). Kids - or
at least *some* kids - really do want and need guidance (some demand
it in one way while verbally demanding that you leave them alone).
Some people try to control everything the kid does, and other people
turn the kid loose to figure out the world on their own.
-=-=-=-

Some kids end up in prison because they're allowed to run all over
without regard for others' space.

Some prisoners return to prison because they learn to like the feeling
of relinquishing control and having all decisions made for them. School
does a good job of that too. So does the military.

Your post seemed very disdainful of unschooling and peaceful parenting.
Are you interested in either?

~Kelly




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links

a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]