Ren Allen

"...many times the way he does things are
a bit out of the ordinary and I struggle with letting him be who his
is and showing him some basic aspects of social appropriateness. Is
there a balance here? Am I using the wrong language when I say
limits?...do some kids need a little extra guidance when it comes to
these things? "

I think you're on the right track, I think the difficult thing is to
see where a
limit is truly potentially harmful and when it's just a kneejerk
reaction
because "we have to". (NOT)
Usually, there is a way to redirect truly destructive behavior by
understanding
their motivation. If your child wants to paint themselvs green and
streak naked,
maybe the yard would be an ok place, rather than the street.:)
And if you are really bothered by children writing all over the
walls, you could
designate certain walls for just that purpose, or their rooms. There
is this
great stuff at paint and hardware stores now, it's paint-on
chalkboard and dry
erase board, so you can turn any wall in your house into instant
art! Very cool.
We've also purchased window markers and let them go to town on every
window in
the house..my was THAT colorful.
I think the key is taking their interest seriously, even if it seems
strange or
destructive, it's a NEED at that moment in their lives, we need to
find a safe
way to help them do it. And the more they know we are their
advocates and we are
here to help them get where they need to go, the more they trust and
really
listen to us.
I have yet to see sugar be truly harmful unless a person has a true
health
issue. The problem with children and sugar, is not the sugar, it's
the lack of
protein sometimes. Protein helps keep your blood sugar balanced when
you ingest
sugar...so helping them be aware of when they might need some
protein is much
more desireable than limiting sugar in my opinion.
My three year old wanted ice cream first thing in the morning
yesterday. I still
have these programmed responses (that fortunately stay in my head
and don't get
to my mouth most of the time) that I have to be aware of, so I'm
chanting in my
mind "it has the same ingredients now as it does at 3pm" over and
over
as I scoop it up for him. He ate it all, then opened the freezer,
pulled out a
piece of chicken breast and said "cook it chicken Mom".
He knows what he needs already.
Sierra will turn down candy for brocolli.
Trevor will refuse most chocolate, unless it comes on a Twix bar.:)
Jared will ask me to cool a "real" meal after they've had a binge of
sugar.
They also choose to eat things that make my health-freak self
cringe, but I
trust that they will find their own balance. And if these foods are
just choices
among many, it will not seem more desirable.

Keeping a child from running on a busy street is doing for them what
they would
WANT us to do if they understood the danger. They don't understand
and we ARE
here to keep them safe. I have to ask myself "why not" when my kids
come up with some bizarre idea, and usually find a way to do it.

Then there's the issue of boundaries. I hugely believe in respecting
people's
boundaries and helping my children understand that issue. Another
person's
property is not something up for grabs, we need to have their ok
before doing
anything to it.
Picking flowers from a neighbors garden is not ok without their
permission, but
a young child can't possibly understand the issue of personal
boundaries....SO,
I'd go buy them some flowers of their own, or ask the neighbor if we
can pick a
few, or go on a walk to pick wildflowers, or help them grow a little
flower
garden or something to fulfill the need.
Once we get past all the rules and "have to's" stuck in our heads,
we
can begin to think more creatively and honor everyone's needs and
interests.
Sure, there are real life limits. I'm here to help my child
creatively navigate
those and to not add more limits that aren't necessary.
Some are.
We have to be especially mindful and comfortable with our children
being who
they are in order to figure out the times that a limit exists for
real reasons,
and when it's just arbitrary or because society frowns upon
individuality.

Ren


Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

Wendy E

Thanks for your input. It's funny...it's good to be reminded that
the ice cream has the same ingredients at 8am as they do at
3pm....and yes, naked backyard play (with a variety of coverings from
green paint to shaving cream to mud) is a common everyday occurence
in our house. Good thing we live in Southern California.

--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:
> "...many times the way he does things are
> a bit out of the ordinary and I struggle with letting him be who
his
> is and showing him some basic aspects of social appropriateness.
Is
> there a balance here? Am I using the wrong language when I say
> limits?...do some kids need a little extra guidance when it comes
to
> these things? "
>
> I think you're on the right track, I think the difficult thing is
to
> see where a
> limit is truly potentially harmful and when it's just a kneejerk
> reaction
> because "we have to". (NOT)
> Usually, there is a way to redirect truly destructive behavior by
> understanding
> their motivation. If your child wants to paint themselvs green and
> streak naked,
> maybe the yard would be an ok place, rather than the street.:)
> And if you are really bothered by children writing all over the
> walls, you could
> designate certain walls for just that purpose, or their rooms.
There
> is this
> great stuff at paint and hardware stores now, it's paint-on
> chalkboard and dry
> erase board, so you can turn any wall in your house into instant
> art! Very cool.
> We've also purchased window markers and let them go to town on
every
> window in
> the house..my was THAT colorful.
> I think the key is taking their interest seriously, even if it
seems
> strange or
> destructive, it's a NEED at that moment in their lives, we need to
> find a safe
> way to help them do it. And the more they know we are their
> advocates and we are
> here to help them get where they need to go, the more they trust
and
> really
> listen to us.
> I have yet to see sugar be truly harmful unless a person has a true
> health
> issue. The problem with children and sugar, is not the sugar, it's
> the lack of
> protein sometimes. Protein helps keep your blood sugar balanced
when
> you ingest
> sugar...so helping them be aware of when they might need some
> protein is much
> more desireable than limiting sugar in my opinion.
> My three year old wanted ice cream first thing in the morning
> yesterday. I still
> have these programmed responses (that fortunately stay in my head
> and don't get
> to my mouth most of the time) that I have to be aware of, so I'm
> chanting in my
> mind "it has the same ingredients now as it does at 3pm" over and
> over
> as I scoop it up for him. He ate it all, then opened the freezer,
> pulled out a
> piece of chicken breast and said "cook it chicken Mom".
> He knows what he needs already.
> Sierra will turn down candy for brocolli.
> Trevor will refuse most chocolate, unless it comes on a Twix bar.:)
> Jared will ask me to cool a "real" meal after they've had a binge
of
> sugar.
> They also choose to eat things that make my health-freak self
> cringe, but I
> trust that they will find their own balance. And if these foods are
> just choices
> among many, it will not seem more desirable.
>
> Keeping a child from running on a busy street is doing for them
what
> they would
> WANT us to do if they understood the danger. They don't understand
> and we ARE
> here to keep them safe. I have to ask myself "why not" when my kids
> come up with some bizarre idea, and usually find a way to do it.
>
> Then there's the issue of boundaries. I hugely believe in
respecting
> people's
> boundaries and helping my children understand that issue. Another
> person's
> property is not something up for grabs, we need to have their ok
> before doing
> anything to it.
> Picking flowers from a neighbors garden is not ok without their
> permission, but
> a young child can't possibly understand the issue of personal
> boundaries....SO,
> I'd go buy them some flowers of their own, or ask the neighbor if
we
> can pick a
> few, or go on a walk to pick wildflowers, or help them grow a
little
> flower
> garden or something to fulfill the need.
> Once we get past all the rules and "have to's" stuck in our heads,
> we
> can begin to think more creatively and honor everyone's needs and
> interests.
> Sure, there are real life limits. I'm here to help my child
> creatively navigate
> those and to not add more limits that aren't necessary.
> Some are.
> We have to be especially mindful and comfortable with our children
> being who
> they are in order to figure out the times that a limit exists for
> real reasons,
> and when it's just arbitrary or because society frowns upon
> individuality.
>
> Ren
>
>
> Learn about unschooling at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan

>>>There
is this
great stuff at paint and hardware stores now, it's paint-on
chalkboard and dry
erase board, so you can turn any wall in your house into instant
art! Very cool.>>>

Does any one know where to order this online? All the stores around here
only sell chalkboard paint in a spray can which believe me doesn't work so
well. I have been wanting to do this in my house for so long. People(read
parents) think I'm crazy. I don't really like the way scribbles look on the
walls, and I have many, but I don't want to stop them from expressing
themselves. I love their art more than I love my walls. Yeah for
chalkboard paint if I can find it.

AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Ren Allen [mailto:starsuncloud@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 8:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] real limits vs. arbitrary limits


"...many times the way he does things are
a bit out of the ordinary and I struggle with letting him be who his
is and showing him some basic aspects of social appropriateness. Is
there a balance here? Am I using the wrong language when I say
limits?...do some kids need a little extra guidance when it comes to
these things? "

I think you're on the right track, I think the difficult thing is to
see where a
limit is truly potentially harmful and when it's just a kneejerk
reaction
because "we have to". (NOT)
Usually, there is a way to redirect truly destructive behavior by
understanding
their motivation. If your child wants to paint themselvs green and
streak naked,
maybe the yard would be an ok place, rather than the street.:)
And if you are really bothered by children writing all over the
walls, you could
designate certain walls for just that purpose, or their rooms. There
is this
great stuff at paint and hardware stores now, it's paint-on
chalkboard and dry
erase board, so you can turn any wall in your house into instant
art! Very cool.
We've also purchased window markers and let them go to town on every
window in
the house..my was THAT colorful.
I think the key is taking their interest seriously, even if it seems
strange or
destructive, it's a NEED at that moment in their lives, we need to
find a safe
way to help them do it. And the more they know we are their
advocates and we are
here to help them get where they need to go, the more they trust and
really
listen to us.
I have yet to see sugar be truly harmful unless a person has a true
health
issue. The problem with children and sugar, is not the sugar, it's
the lack of
protein sometimes. Protein helps keep your blood sugar balanced when
you ingest
sugar...so helping them be aware of when they might need some
protein is much
more desireable than limiting sugar in my opinion.
My three year old wanted ice cream first thing in the morning
yesterday. I still
have these programmed responses (that fortunately stay in my head
and don't get
to my mouth most of the time) that I have to be aware of, so I'm
chanting in my
mind "it has the same ingredients now as it does at 3pm" over and
over
as I scoop it up for him. He ate it all, then opened the freezer,
pulled out a
piece of chicken breast and said "cook it chicken Mom".
He knows what he needs already.
Sierra will turn down candy for brocolli.
Trevor will refuse most chocolate, unless it comes on a Twix bar.:)
Jared will ask me to cool a "real" meal after they've had a binge of
sugar.
They also choose to eat things that make my health-freak self
cringe, but I
trust that they will find their own balance. And if these foods are
just choices
among many, it will not seem more desirable.

Keeping a child from running on a busy street is doing for them what
they would
WANT us to do if they understood the danger. They don't understand
and we ARE
here to keep them safe. I have to ask myself "why not" when my kids
come up with some bizarre idea, and usually find a way to do it.

Then there's the issue of boundaries. I hugely believe in respecting
people's
boundaries and helping my children understand that issue. Another
person's
property is not something up for grabs, we need to have their ok
before doing
anything to it.
Picking flowers from a neighbors garden is not ok without their
permission, but
a young child can't possibly understand the issue of personal
boundaries....SO,
I'd go buy them some flowers of their own, or ask the neighbor if we
can pick a
few, or go on a walk to pick wildflowers, or help them grow a little
flower
garden or something to fulfill the need.
Once we get past all the rules and "have to's" stuck in our heads,
we
can begin to think more creatively and honor everyone's needs and
interests.
Sure, there are real life limits. I'm here to help my child
creatively navigate
those and to not add more limits that aren't necessary.
Some are.
We have to be especially mindful and comfortable with our children
being who
they are in order to figure out the times that a limit exists for
real reasons,
and when it's just arbitrary or because society frowns upon
individuality.

Ren


Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

Thanks for writing this, Ren. It really helped clarify my thinking and got
me trying to think more about what's arbitrary. I'm saving it to read over!
Joan

-----Original Message-----
From: Ren Allen [mailto:starsuncloud@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 8:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] real limits vs. arbitrary limits


"...many times the way he does things are
a bit out of the ordinary and I struggle with letting him be who his
is and showing him some basic aspects of social appropriateness. Is
there a balance here? Am I using the wrong language when I say
limits?...do some kids need a little extra guidance when it comes to
these things? "

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

So this is small potatoes compared to a lot of the situations I've read
about on this list in terms of folks letting go of limits, but I wanted to
relate something that happened yesterday which has proved to me that being
on this list and reading all of these amazing posts is helping me to
identify and let go of some of my thinking and reactions that have no real
anything behind them other than being a left over remnant of the way I was
brought up which I haven't examined.

The other evening I came home to my son (3.4) who announced that his M&M guy
that he painted at Plaster Fun Time had broken. He didn't seem inordinately
upset about it. Later that day, I heard a loud "bang" on the kitchen floor.
I came in to ask him if something broke again. As I walked in he picked up
his plaster piece and gleefully smashed it onto the hardwood floor. My
immediate internal reaction was to scream "Stop!" at the top of my lungs.
Somehow, possibly thanks to you all, what came out of my mouth was a very
calm sounding "Nick, looks like you want it to break. I just want to be
sure you're okay if we can't get it back together again." "That's okay,
Mama" he shouted gleefully and proceeded to really get into smashing it all
over the kitchen floor. Actually my daughter (who is a sensitive soul) was
more upset than me, but calmed down after we clarified that yes, she
wouldn't want to do that to her things, but it was really okay with Nicky
and it was Nicky's thing. So we went off and did something else while he
smashed. At one point he said, not upset but just in an observatory kind of
way, "Mama, this big piece, doesn't smash apart!" So we talked about why
that piece might be harder to break. It turned into one big experiement ...
it was cool and very liberating for all of us.

Joan

Valerie

Congratulations Joan! Didn't you feel like the wisest in control mom
in the world when you reacted that way? It was HIS M&M guy and you
allowed him to keep ownership of it. Very cool.

love, Valerie

[email protected]

"At one point he said, not upset but just in an observatory kind of
way, "Mama, this big piece, doesn't smash apart!" So we talked about
why
that piece might be harder to break. It turned into one big experiement ...
it was cool and very liberating for all of us."

Wow. Cool story Joan!! And I don't think it's a small victory at all...I think it's HUGE.:) I can't always stop my kneejerk reactions towards destruction sometimes, and I end up kicking myself later.
I loved your story.

After my Mom died a couple years ago, I ended up with some of her figurines. One of them is this Precious Moments boy, with a sad look on his face, a big tear coursing down his cheek, holding up a paper that says "report card"...YUCK! I hated that thing.
It had been cracked and glued once before, so I decided it would be cathartic to smash the hell out of it. I gave it to Sierra, wrapped in a ziploc bag and she had a ball turning it into dust.

Your story reminded me of one I've read about Einstein, when he was a small boy (don't know if it's factual or not). He spilled some milk, and rather than berate him, or even clean it up, his mother sat down and pointed to the lovely reflections on it and swirled their fingers in it a bit. She taught him the important lesson that day...that spilled milk was a chance to observe and experiment, how awesome is that?

You can save his smashed up plaster and use it for a mosaic, or some other artsy project. From destruction comes creation! I'd save a piece for my journal at least.

Ren


Learn about unschooling at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/10/2004 8:20:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:


>
> You can save his smashed up plaster and use it for a mosaic, or some other
> artsy project. From destruction comes creation! I'd save a piece for my
> journal at least.
>
> Ren
> ren,you have an interesting way of looking at things,,,its a pity i didnt
> know people like you when my first two where growning up,,,the poor guys were
> my guniea pigs on what works and what doesnt.it took having a few more to
> relax the couldve's,,,shouldve's,,ought to do's...alot of stuff our moms felt was
> sooo important,like keeping a kid clean,and EVERYTHING put away,,99% of the
> time,,,drove me nutz,,,dirt washes,and they DO out grow most of the
> toys,,,eventually,,and too much clean makes a kid neorotic....lol...my opinion,,,for
> what it is worth...............later....June
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Valerie

I'm reading (one page at a time) Pigs In Heaven, by Barbara
Kingsolver right now and this line popped out at me:

...everything truly important is washable.

Sounds like a great philosophy to me. :-)

love, Valerie

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

-----Original Message-----
From: starsuncloud@... [mailto:starsuncloud@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2004 9:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] One small victory

"Your story reminded me of one I've read about Einstein, when he was a small
boy (don't know if it's factual or not). He spilled some milk, and rather
than berate him, or even clean it up, his mother sat down and pointed to the
lovely reflections on it and swirled their fingers in it a bit. She taught
him the important lesson that day...that spilled milk was a chance to
observe and experiment, how awesome is that?"

Ren"

Ren,

Thanks so much for sharing this. I have promoted mistakes as an opportunity
to learn, but your post helped me reflect that my idea of "learning" would
be "we just learned to carry the milk more carefully" LOL. So this morning
my daughter dropped an egg and said "whoops". I went over and said "Hey,
look at the way some of these pieces of eggshell flew out of the point where
the egg smashed!" and we really found some super flyer eggshell pieces and
talked about why some of them might have flown farther than others and why
that yolk didn't fly anywhere and what it was doing.

It was SO awesome.

Joan