Unmotivated kid
Gina Rodriguez
Hello. I've been here for a few weeks soaking up all the experiences and wisdom. This email is kind of in response to and related to the last set of emails that just went around by another newbie like me who was struggling with the activities that are actually taking place in a day.
My question is about a specific personality type--the type that appears (and I specifically say 'appears' because this description is based solely on visual evidence) to be "lazy" and unmotivated. The type who is not interested in anything that requires any effort at all. The type who turns his back on anything where achievement takes (any amount of) time and doesn't result in instant gratification following (very) minimal (or no) effort. The kind who you DO try and put forth creative and imaginative options that are all turned down because the perceived level of "work" is too great.
This is my son, age 10, the oldest of three. Granted, we've only been unschooling for a few months and probably still more in the deschooling stage, so it isn't the fact that his not taking initiative bothers me right now as much as his seeming lack of interest in doing so.
For example, he loves video games and could play those all day every day. I'm trying very hard not to let it bother me and decided to offer him the opportunity to learn how to create video games from an online source that was designed for kids his age. He got this huge grin on his face and was so excited...until we read the description together and it said that it would ONLY require about 3-4 hours of work each week to complete the 8-week session. I noticed his countenance change when we read that part and I tried explaining that 3-4 hours a week was like the time of watching one of his favorite shows each day and how that time flies by and if he was having a good time he wouldn't even notice. But in his mind it might have well have been 40 hours a week and his eager smile turned into a quick and absolute "no" in the blink of an eye.
Another example would be the time we (well, my husband and girls) decided to start a 1000 piece puzzle. While the rest of us worked together, my son quickly decided he would rather sit on the couch and do nothing but wait in "hopes" that his dad would abandon time with his daughters in favor of time with him on video games even though my husband had already given him video game time together earlier in the day. Literally, he would rather sit and do nothing at all than have to "work" at a puzzle that takes several days to complete (as opposed to 15 minutes), even if the minimal effort required in putting together a puzzle for an hour would have resulted in the daddy time he so desired. (Maybe he doesn't like puzzles. I get that. That's okay. But it serves as a good example here.)
Is this typical for the deschooling stage? Is it typical for his age and gender? If so, when can I expect the tide to turn a bit? It's hard for me to know since he's my only boy and my oldest child. (He's also my only child with ADD.) In comparison there is my youngest, a girl and a hard-working competitive gymnast, who is highly motivated and very driven to complete a task/goal without any regard at all to the time or effort it takes to complete it. (I don't even think she notices it.)
I'm really trying to be patient, but would love to hear from your experiences.
Thanks,
Gina
Sent from my iPhone
My question is about a specific personality type--the type that appears (and I specifically say 'appears' because this description is based solely on visual evidence) to be "lazy" and unmotivated. The type who is not interested in anything that requires any effort at all. The type who turns his back on anything where achievement takes (any amount of) time and doesn't result in instant gratification following (very) minimal (or no) effort. The kind who you DO try and put forth creative and imaginative options that are all turned down because the perceived level of "work" is too great.
This is my son, age 10, the oldest of three. Granted, we've only been unschooling for a few months and probably still more in the deschooling stage, so it isn't the fact that his not taking initiative bothers me right now as much as his seeming lack of interest in doing so.
For example, he loves video games and could play those all day every day. I'm trying very hard not to let it bother me and decided to offer him the opportunity to learn how to create video games from an online source that was designed for kids his age. He got this huge grin on his face and was so excited...until we read the description together and it said that it would ONLY require about 3-4 hours of work each week to complete the 8-week session. I noticed his countenance change when we read that part and I tried explaining that 3-4 hours a week was like the time of watching one of his favorite shows each day and how that time flies by and if he was having a good time he wouldn't even notice. But in his mind it might have well have been 40 hours a week and his eager smile turned into a quick and absolute "no" in the blink of an eye.
Another example would be the time we (well, my husband and girls) decided to start a 1000 piece puzzle. While the rest of us worked together, my son quickly decided he would rather sit on the couch and do nothing but wait in "hopes" that his dad would abandon time with his daughters in favor of time with him on video games even though my husband had already given him video game time together earlier in the day. Literally, he would rather sit and do nothing at all than have to "work" at a puzzle that takes several days to complete (as opposed to 15 minutes), even if the minimal effort required in putting together a puzzle for an hour would have resulted in the daddy time he so desired. (Maybe he doesn't like puzzles. I get that. That's okay. But it serves as a good example here.)
Is this typical for the deschooling stage? Is it typical for his age and gender? If so, when can I expect the tide to turn a bit? It's hard for me to know since he's my only boy and my oldest child. (He's also my only child with ADD.) In comparison there is my youngest, a girl and a hard-working competitive gymnast, who is highly motivated and very driven to complete a task/goal without any regard at all to the time or effort it takes to complete it. (I don't even think she notices it.)
I'm really trying to be patient, but would love to hear from your experiences.
Thanks,
Gina
Sent from my iPhone
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 1, 2013, at 11:35 AM, Gina Rodriguez wrote:
People get labeled lazy when they aren't meeting *someone else's* standards. Why should that be? If *he* is judging something won't be worth the energy *to him*, why should your judgement *for him* be better?
It might be deschooling. He needs at least a month per year he was in school. (Perhaps more if it was especially bad.)
It might be his personality to always be low key. If you don't like that in him, if you try to change him, your actions are saying to him that you don't like him.
If you liked reading bodice busters but your husband thought they were a waste of time, would him helping you find something better to do with your time feel like it was loving support or an effort to mold you into someone he could like better?
Does he stay on the easiest level? Does he keep doing the same challenges over and over because they're easy?
If you don't know, it would be good to sit down with him and get to know what he's doing! :-) Ask him to show you how to play. Create your own character.
But I can tell you he's not repeating the easiest stuff. Unless someone is using a game for decompression, they don't play to not be challenged! They play for mastery. On their own terms.
That gets disdained, but I bet there's many things you wish you had the knowledge to do but aren't interested in the process of learning.
I'd love to know Japanese. But the process isn't interesting to me. On the other hand I am interested in the process of crafting stories. And I've read several books about it. I even spend extra time hunting down my husband's iPad when I need to go to the bathroom so I can use those few minutes reading about it. ;-)
There are lots of things that the process of learning is interesting to me. There are lots of things that doing is more interesting than learning.
It will help enormously if you see the world through his enjoyment rather than through yours. Your judging him based on what you find worthy of time rather than honoring his own choice of what's worthy of his time. Would it feel loving for your husband to judge your worth by your lack of interest in something he loves to do?
You will be much happier if you stop comparing him to the ideal you want him to be and instead look directly at him. What does he love? What makes him smile? Why does he love what he loves?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My question is about a specific personality type--the type that appears ... to be "lazy"People choose what to spend their energy on based on whether what they'll get out of an activity is worth the energy they'll put into it.
> and unmotivated. The type who is not interested in anything that requires any effort at all.
People get labeled lazy when they aren't meeting *someone else's* standards. Why should that be? If *he* is judging something won't be worth the energy *to him*, why should your judgement *for him* be better?
It might be deschooling. He needs at least a month per year he was in school. (Perhaps more if it was especially bad.)
It might be his personality to always be low key. If you don't like that in him, if you try to change him, your actions are saying to him that you don't like him.
If you liked reading bodice busters but your husband thought they were a waste of time, would him helping you find something better to do with your time feel like it was loving support or an effort to mold you into someone he could like better?
> he loves video games and could play those all day every day.That's a great deal of energy expended over a long period of time.
Does he stay on the easiest level? Does he keep doing the same challenges over and over because they're easy?
If you don't know, it would be good to sit down with him and get to know what he's doing! :-) Ask him to show you how to play. Create your own character.
But I can tell you he's not repeating the easiest stuff. Unless someone is using a game for decompression, they don't play to not be challenged! They play for mastery. On their own terms.
> But in his mind it might have well have been 40 hours a week and hisHis reaction says he was way more interested in playing than about creating. I'd say he's interested in knowing how to create, but the process of learning how doesn't interest him yet.
> eager smile turned into a quick and absolute "no" in the blink of an eye.
That gets disdained, but I bet there's many things you wish you had the knowledge to do but aren't interested in the process of learning.
I'd love to know Japanese. But the process isn't interesting to me. On the other hand I am interested in the process of crafting stories. And I've read several books about it. I even spend extra time hunting down my husband's iPad when I need to go to the bathroom so I can use those few minutes reading about it. ;-)
There are lots of things that the process of learning is interesting to me. There are lots of things that doing is more interesting than learning.
> Literally, he would rather sit and do nothing at all than have to "work" at a puzzleWhat is the point of a jigsaw puzzle? Looked at objectively, it's really rather pointless. Unless you enjoy that process of hunting one piece out of a thousand, it seems a waste of time. (I like jigsaw puzzles, BTW.)
It will help enormously if you see the world through his enjoyment rather than through yours. Your judging him based on what you find worthy of time rather than honoring his own choice of what's worthy of his time. Would it feel loving for your husband to judge your worth by your lack of interest in something he loves to do?
You will be much happier if you stop comparing him to the ideal you want him to be and instead look directly at him. What does he love? What makes him smile? Why does he love what he loves?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Gina, I'm going hold a couple of your comments up against each other, hopefully to help you see your son's behavior in a different light.
versus
If you're not seeing the value of the hours he spends gaming, then you are absolutely still deschooling, and so is he. He will deschool faster if you support him in his endeavors - if you can do that, he'll deschool faster than you will. You have years more baggage to overcome... and part of that baggage is you have very specific ideas about what kinds of activities - what kinds of learning - is valuable.
It's really important to value what your kids value. Not just important for unschooling, it's important to your kids. It's part of how they perceive your love for them. When you devalue what your kids love - even playing games! you devalue your own child in their eyes.
If your son loves video games so much he could spend all day playing, then it's very important for you and his dad to be more involved in that. Play with him. See playing games with him as being As Important as doing something "educational", as important as "family time". Don't see games as a jumping off point to get him to do something you value more - see the games themselves as wonderful and important. They are to your son!
Here's a page on the benefits of video games - playing them:
http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
Something which helped me understand gaming a lot better was finding games I like. I used to think I was a book and jigsaw puzzle sort of person - but games are full of puzzles And they're stories. I was amazed, I didn't know they were stories! And I thought only puzzle games had puzzles - but they're a major component of most games. Some of the stories and puzzles are simpler than others... but that could be said of novels and word-games or jigsaws too.
Poor guy, he's the odd man out and no-one cares. We have an odd-man-out in my family - my stepson, Ray. The rest of us have fairly similar interests and values, but he's the outlier. It has taken a concerted effort on my and George's part to make sure he stays included in the family - an effort to actively engage with him in the things he enjoys.
Try to see the thing with the puzzle from your son's perspective - "the family" (but not him) decided to do a project he didn't much like and couldn't see the point of, do it right in front of him without any care for the fact that he was being left out, maybe shaming him for the fact that it wasn't something he wanted to do. That's really hard on a kid. It's crushing. It's saying "your feelings are unimportant".
Maybe he needs more attention than you realize - some people need more than others! Maybe it was the whole dynamic which implied something really very cruel - implied that the love of his parents depended on his capitulation to the group. Maybe the big chaotic jumble of bits of cardboard combined with a jumble of faces and voices and opinions was too stressful.
Step back from the idea that a group activity with "the family" is something that will meet your son's needs for attention and connection. Assume he needs some one-on-one time, more than other family members. See those as real needs, as real as if he had a serious health issue which required your attention.
You picked the wrong thing. See that change in enthusiasm as a mistake on your part, not a flaw in your child. It's okay to make mistakes, if you're willing to learn from them ;) There are game-maker programs which are more like games themselves. Does he play any SIM type games? Does he play Robolox or Minecraft? World of Warcraft? Any of those have game or animation creating aspects to them.
I'm going to compare two more of your statements:
versus
If your daughter has no sense of effort in acheiving her goals, then she's exactly as lazy and unmotivated as your son. To her, I'll bet what she does feels like playing. In her, because you value what she does, because you can see and understand that "just playing" is really a lot of hard work, you don't see laziness. Learn to see your son "just playing" the same way. He's working and learning and growing, too. If you can value his work, his learning, his growth as much as your daughter, love and lightness and peace will expand in your family - your whole family, the one which includes your son.
---Meredith
>> "lazy" and unmotivated. The type who is not interested in anything that requires any effort at all. The type who turns his back on anything where achievement takes (any amount of) time and doesn't result in instant gratification***********
versus
>>he loves video games and could play those all day every day.Video games require effort, concentration, a willingness to work toward a goal, a willingness to fail and fail and fail again in order to acheive that goal. Don't sell your son short by ignoring the very work he's doing when he plays!
>>we've only been unschooling for a few months and probably still more in the deschooling stage*************
If you're not seeing the value of the hours he spends gaming, then you are absolutely still deschooling, and so is he. He will deschool faster if you support him in his endeavors - if you can do that, he'll deschool faster than you will. You have years more baggage to overcome... and part of that baggage is you have very specific ideas about what kinds of activities - what kinds of learning - is valuable.
It's really important to value what your kids value. Not just important for unschooling, it's important to your kids. It's part of how they perceive your love for them. When you devalue what your kids love - even playing games! you devalue your own child in their eyes.
If your son loves video games so much he could spend all day playing, then it's very important for you and his dad to be more involved in that. Play with him. See playing games with him as being As Important as doing something "educational", as important as "family time". Don't see games as a jumping off point to get him to do something you value more - see the games themselves as wonderful and important. They are to your son!
Here's a page on the benefits of video games - playing them:
http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
Something which helped me understand gaming a lot better was finding games I like. I used to think I was a book and jigsaw puzzle sort of person - but games are full of puzzles And they're stories. I was amazed, I didn't know they were stories! And I thought only puzzle games had puzzles - but they're a major component of most games. Some of the stories and puzzles are simpler than others... but that could be said of novels and word-games or jigsaws too.
>> Another example would be the time we (well, my husband and girls) decided to start a 1000 piece puzzle. While the rest of us worked together, my son quickly decided he would rather sit on the couch and do nothing but wait**************
Poor guy, he's the odd man out and no-one cares. We have an odd-man-out in my family - my stepson, Ray. The rest of us have fairly similar interests and values, but he's the outlier. It has taken a concerted effort on my and George's part to make sure he stays included in the family - an effort to actively engage with him in the things he enjoys.
Try to see the thing with the puzzle from your son's perspective - "the family" (but not him) decided to do a project he didn't much like and couldn't see the point of, do it right in front of him without any care for the fact that he was being left out, maybe shaming him for the fact that it wasn't something he wanted to do. That's really hard on a kid. It's crushing. It's saying "your feelings are unimportant".
>>wait in "hopes" that his dad would abandon time with his daughters in favor of time with him on video games even though my husband had already given him video game time together earlier in the day**************
Maybe he needs more attention than you realize - some people need more than others! Maybe it was the whole dynamic which implied something really very cruel - implied that the love of his parents depended on his capitulation to the group. Maybe the big chaotic jumble of bits of cardboard combined with a jumble of faces and voices and opinions was too stressful.
Step back from the idea that a group activity with "the family" is something that will meet your son's needs for attention and connection. Assume he needs some one-on-one time, more than other family members. See those as real needs, as real as if he had a serious health issue which required your attention.
>>decided to offer him the opportunity to learn how to create video games from an online source that was designed for kids his age. He got this huge grin on his face and was so excited...until we read the description together and it said that it would ONLY require about 3-4 hours of work each week to complete the 8-week session. I noticed his countenance change************
You picked the wrong thing. See that change in enthusiasm as a mistake on your part, not a flaw in your child. It's okay to make mistakes, if you're willing to learn from them ;) There are game-maker programs which are more like games themselves. Does he play any SIM type games? Does he play Robolox or Minecraft? World of Warcraft? Any of those have game or animation creating aspects to them.
I'm going to compare two more of your statements:
>>a girl and a hard-working competitive gymnast, who is highly motivated and very driven to complete a task/goal without any regard at all to the time or effort it takes to complete it. (I don't even think she notices it.)***********
versus
>> "lazy" and unmotivated. The type who is not interested in anything that requires any effort at all. The type who turns his back on anything where achievement takes (any amount of) time and doesn't result in instant gratification*****************
If your daughter has no sense of effort in acheiving her goals, then she's exactly as lazy and unmotivated as your son. To her, I'll bet what she does feels like playing. In her, because you value what she does, because you can see and understand that "just playing" is really a lot of hard work, you don't see laziness. Learn to see your son "just playing" the same way. He's working and learning and growing, too. If you can value his work, his learning, his growth as much as your daughter, love and lightness and peace will expand in your family - your whole family, the one which includes your son.
---Meredith
Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll wrote:
One of the things I learned from Morgan was the value of "cheat codes" - many games have these and they allow you to change the parameters of a game to make it easier. A common cheat is something like "invulnerability" where your character never takes any damage. Another common one is "maximum damage" where you kill your opponents in just one or two hits. At first, I saw cheats in the schoolish sense and wondered what was the point. Then I started playing a game where I liked the story so much I didn't want to hack and bash my way through all the levels - I wanted to know what happened! So I played with the cheats on.... and realized it was like skimming a really good book the first time through - something I do all the time when I read fiction. I'll skim for the plot and then read it again for the details. Mo showed me that in a game I can Play for the plot, then play again for details. She does that a lot - play once to get the scope of the game, then play over and over to get higher scores and faster times.
When you buy games, one of the points mentioned in reviews is how interesting the game is to replay. Some games change depending on the choices you make, or the levels can be played in a different sequence. Those sorts of things make a game more interesting to some players. When Ray used to play a lot of video games, he especially liked games eh could replay and get a different story. That was cool to him - it wasn't just beating levels and bosses, it was stories within stories within stories.
---Meredith
>> But I can tell you he's not repeating the easiest stuff. Unless someone is using a game for decompression, they don't play to not be challenged! They play for mastery. On their own terms.**************
One of the things I learned from Morgan was the value of "cheat codes" - many games have these and they allow you to change the parameters of a game to make it easier. A common cheat is something like "invulnerability" where your character never takes any damage. Another common one is "maximum damage" where you kill your opponents in just one or two hits. At first, I saw cheats in the schoolish sense and wondered what was the point. Then I started playing a game where I liked the story so much I didn't want to hack and bash my way through all the levels - I wanted to know what happened! So I played with the cheats on.... and realized it was like skimming a really good book the first time through - something I do all the time when I read fiction. I'll skim for the plot and then read it again for the details. Mo showed me that in a game I can Play for the plot, then play again for details. She does that a lot - play once to get the scope of the game, then play over and over to get higher scores and faster times.
When you buy games, one of the points mentioned in reviews is how interesting the game is to replay. Some games change depending on the choices you make, or the levels can be played in a different sequence. Those sorts of things make a game more interesting to some players. When Ray used to play a lot of video games, he especially liked games eh could replay and get a different story. That was cool to him - it wasn't just beating levels and bosses, it was stories within stories within stories.
---Meredith
Gina Rodriguez
Thanks to Meredith and Joyce for your responses. I appreciate the time and
attention you both gave me.
I just wanted to clarify that video gaming isn't the issue. Nor is his not
wanting to put together a puzzle with us. I used them both only as
examples. And I don't want to give the impression that I am judging him.
(Notice the word lazy was in quotes.) Nor did I mention my youngest in
comparison to him, but to show that I CANNOT compare him to ANYONE as no
one in my family is like him and none have gone before him for me to learn
from.
So, I am reposting the main question below and am hoping that those who
have years of experience on me can at unschooling might be able to
recognize one of their own children as I described my son and help me to
get a feel of what to expect in the months and years ahead. Thanks!!!
*Is this typical for the deschooling stage? Is it typical for his age and
gender? If so, when can I expect the tide to turn a bit? It's hard for me
to know since he's my only boy and my oldest child. (He's also my only
child with ADD.)
*
--
Wishing you peace,
Gina Rodriguez
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
attention you both gave me.
I just wanted to clarify that video gaming isn't the issue. Nor is his not
wanting to put together a puzzle with us. I used them both only as
examples. And I don't want to give the impression that I am judging him.
(Notice the word lazy was in quotes.) Nor did I mention my youngest in
comparison to him, but to show that I CANNOT compare him to ANYONE as no
one in my family is like him and none have gone before him for me to learn
from.
So, I am reposting the main question below and am hoping that those who
have years of experience on me can at unschooling might be able to
recognize one of their own children as I described my son and help me to
get a feel of what to expect in the months and years ahead. Thanks!!!
*Is this typical for the deschooling stage? Is it typical for his age and
gender? If so, when can I expect the tide to turn a bit? It's hard for me
to know since he's my only boy and my oldest child. (He's also my only
child with ADD.)
*
--
Wishing you peace,
Gina Rodriguez
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Gina Rodriguez wrote:
Is this typical of deschooling? Yes. It's common for parents to continue to look for certain kinds of learning while deschooling and so sabotage the process to an extent - maybe sabotage it entirely. The longer you see an unmotivated kid, the longer he'll remain "unmotivated" because your expectations haven't changed.
Your son IS learning. He IS motivated. If you can support him in what he wants to do and learn right now, what he learns will help him heal. That's a big part of deschooling: healing from the damages of school and parental expectations. It can take anywhere from a few weeks to the rest of a kid's life to deschool, depending on how much a parent is committed to deschooling him/herself. Unschooling absolutely won't work for your son until you begin learn what natural learning really looks like. He won't start to heal until you start to change.
I'm running out the door, but I'll come back with some descriptions of natural learning in my own home, hopefully so you can see that your son is fine and see ways of helping and supporting him to continue learning in his own way. Hopefully other people will have similar stories to share to help you get un-stuck.
---Meredith
>> I just wanted to clarify that video gaming isn't the issue. Nor is his notThat was perfectly clear. The problem isn't the specifics, it's that you don't have a good grasp on what learning is or how it works yet, and therefore what unschooling is or how it works. That's normal for someone new to unschooling! There's a lot to learn! But part of Your deschooling process is that right now you're seeing a problem which exists entirely in your own mind. There is no spoon ;)
> wanting to put together a puzzle with us. I used them both only as
> examples
Is this typical of deschooling? Yes. It's common for parents to continue to look for certain kinds of learning while deschooling and so sabotage the process to an extent - maybe sabotage it entirely. The longer you see an unmotivated kid, the longer he'll remain "unmotivated" because your expectations haven't changed.
Your son IS learning. He IS motivated. If you can support him in what he wants to do and learn right now, what he learns will help him heal. That's a big part of deschooling: healing from the damages of school and parental expectations. It can take anywhere from a few weeks to the rest of a kid's life to deschool, depending on how much a parent is committed to deschooling him/herself. Unschooling absolutely won't work for your son until you begin learn what natural learning really looks like. He won't start to heal until you start to change.
I'm running out the door, but I'll come back with some descriptions of natural learning in my own home, hopefully so you can see that your son is fine and see ways of helping and supporting him to continue learning in his own way. Hopefully other people will have similar stories to share to help you get un-stuck.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 3, 2013, at 10:54 PM, Gina Rodriguez wrote:
Your question is asking "When will this end? When will he be someone whose learning looks like something I understand."
The answer is: Maybe never! It might be deschooling. It might be who he is. The sooner you accept who he is *right now* -- regardless of the cause, regardless of whether it's temporary or not -- the sooner unschooling will flow for you :-) Even if he's someone different next year, he has a whole year of being who he is right now. That's his for-now reality.
What's unclear to you is that you *are* comparing him. You're comparing him to something he isn't. You wouldn't be troubled if you didn't have some other image of what he should look like in your head.
Perhaps you have two voices in your head. One is saying how frustrated you are with him. The other is saying how wrong it is to view him that way. But you can't not be frustrated with him until you pull those feelings out and examine them. Look at where they're coming from. Is it voices of other people that you can hear saying what a bad mom you are? Is it voices from your childhood that say these things are wrong?
Once you can root those out, you won't be painting a picture of him as lazy with or without quotes.
I don't mean that to say you should have buried those feelings more deeply so they didn't come through in your post. Burying feelings is harmful! Dig deep and pull them up by the roots! Look at where they're coming from. Find ways to see him rather than seeing what the voices in your head say he "should" be.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Is this typical for the deschooling stage? Is it typical for his age andYes, that was clear in your first post. :-)
> gender? If so, when can I expect the tide to turn a bit? It's hard for me
> to know since he's my only boy and my oldest child. (He's also my only
> child with ADD.)
Your question is asking "When will this end? When will he be someone whose learning looks like something I understand."
The answer is: Maybe never! It might be deschooling. It might be who he is. The sooner you accept who he is *right now* -- regardless of the cause, regardless of whether it's temporary or not -- the sooner unschooling will flow for you :-) Even if he's someone different next year, he has a whole year of being who he is right now. That's his for-now reality.
What's unclear to you is that you *are* comparing him. You're comparing him to something he isn't. You wouldn't be troubled if you didn't have some other image of what he should look like in your head.
> I just wanted to clarify that video gaming isn't the issue. Nor is his notThere are hundreds of things he does. But of those hundreds, you chose those two examples to show us who he is. They weren't random.
> wanting to put together a puzzle with us.
Perhaps you have two voices in your head. One is saying how frustrated you are with him. The other is saying how wrong it is to view him that way. But you can't not be frustrated with him until you pull those feelings out and examine them. Look at where they're coming from. Is it voices of other people that you can hear saying what a bad mom you are? Is it voices from your childhood that say these things are wrong?
Once you can root those out, you won't be painting a picture of him as lazy with or without quotes.
I don't mean that to say you should have buried those feelings more deeply so they didn't come through in your post. Burying feelings is harmful! Dig deep and pull them up by the roots! Look at where they're coming from. Find ways to see him rather than seeing what the voices in your head say he "should" be.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Meredith" wrote:
I'm going to start with some stories about Ray, since he's our "odd man out" in many ways - one of which is that he learns somewhat differently than others in the family, so it's been up to me and George to adjust to him and his needs.
Back when he first moved in with us full time - after living with his bio-mom full time for a few years and going to school (loooong story and not a happy one) - he and George embarked on a project together, building a little cabin on our property. It's a sort of "hunting cabin" if you're familiar with such a thing, a pretty basic structure with few or no amenities. This one has electricity.
Anyway, George has done a lot of small-scale construction over the years and Ray had been around, and around other people building things, but never really took much interest. This was going to be Their project, a sort of guy-bonding project. In that sense, it was kind of a flop. George expected Ray to fumble around, make a lot of mistakes, ask questions, get in the way a lot, and learn from the process. Instead, Ray stood back and watched, or sat nearby and and kinda-sorta watched, or wandered off and came back. It drove George nuts - how was Ray going to learn anything when he wasn't Doing anything?
Turns out Ray was watching and learning, but not in a way which made sense to George - it doesn't make sense to me, either, but this is the closest I can come. George and I (and Mo) are logical, part-to-whole learners. We learn as we go, fumbling around, figuring things out. We can learn other ways, too, but that's the way we learn complex hands-on things like... building a small structure. Or making a quilt. Or cooking. In the same sorts of situations, Ray learns backwards from the way we do. He's a more intuitive, whole-to-part learner if you will - he needs to see a whole process from start to finish, and Then he can begin to understand the parts, what they do, what they're for. He has a really hard time doing a "part" if he can't see how it fits into the whole - it seems like pointless "busy work" to him and he gets frustrated and doesn't learn as much or as well.
That was... six years ago. He's 19 now. He has helped build small structures at local farms and communes, helped remodel a restaurant and a couple houses. He's incredibly capable. He Can do the kind of experimental learning George does, but only if he has a kind of global template in his mind first... at least that's how I think of it. But I'm not an intuitive learner, so maybe it's something else and this is just as close as I can get to understanding ;) With this much understanding, George and I know not to expect the beginning of Ray's learning process to look like anything we would define as "learning". It looks like a guy hanging out, doing nothing. But it works for him.
---Meredith
>I'll come back with some descriptions of natural learning in my own home, hopefully so you can see that your son is fine and see ways of helping and supporting him to continue learning in his own way. Hopefully other people will have similar stories to share to help you get un-stuck.*****************
I'm going to start with some stories about Ray, since he's our "odd man out" in many ways - one of which is that he learns somewhat differently than others in the family, so it's been up to me and George to adjust to him and his needs.
Back when he first moved in with us full time - after living with his bio-mom full time for a few years and going to school (loooong story and not a happy one) - he and George embarked on a project together, building a little cabin on our property. It's a sort of "hunting cabin" if you're familiar with such a thing, a pretty basic structure with few or no amenities. This one has electricity.
Anyway, George has done a lot of small-scale construction over the years and Ray had been around, and around other people building things, but never really took much interest. This was going to be Their project, a sort of guy-bonding project. In that sense, it was kind of a flop. George expected Ray to fumble around, make a lot of mistakes, ask questions, get in the way a lot, and learn from the process. Instead, Ray stood back and watched, or sat nearby and and kinda-sorta watched, or wandered off and came back. It drove George nuts - how was Ray going to learn anything when he wasn't Doing anything?
Turns out Ray was watching and learning, but not in a way which made sense to George - it doesn't make sense to me, either, but this is the closest I can come. George and I (and Mo) are logical, part-to-whole learners. We learn as we go, fumbling around, figuring things out. We can learn other ways, too, but that's the way we learn complex hands-on things like... building a small structure. Or making a quilt. Or cooking. In the same sorts of situations, Ray learns backwards from the way we do. He's a more intuitive, whole-to-part learner if you will - he needs to see a whole process from start to finish, and Then he can begin to understand the parts, what they do, what they're for. He has a really hard time doing a "part" if he can't see how it fits into the whole - it seems like pointless "busy work" to him and he gets frustrated and doesn't learn as much or as well.
That was... six years ago. He's 19 now. He has helped build small structures at local farms and communes, helped remodel a restaurant and a couple houses. He's incredibly capable. He Can do the kind of experimental learning George does, but only if he has a kind of global template in his mind first... at least that's how I think of it. But I'm not an intuitive learner, so maybe it's something else and this is just as close as I can get to understanding ;) With this much understanding, George and I know not to expect the beginning of Ray's learning process to look like anything we would define as "learning". It looks like a guy hanging out, doing nothing. But it works for him.
---Meredith
Meredith
Okay, so, natural learning with Morgan... I'm going to do something a little different and describe the same day from two different perspectives in an attempt to show the effects of parental attitude.
First, a fairly conventional perspective:
Yesterday, Mo didn't do much of anything. She jumped on the trampoline for awhile - it's her only real outdoor activity since she can't be bothered to learn to ride her bike or play games and trying to get her to go for a walk is like pulling teeth. And when I say "jumped on the trampoline" I mean just that - she doesn't do tricks or anything, just jumps up and down, mindlessly. The rest of the day she hung around the house, "playing a video game" - I have to put it in quotes because it wasn't like she was really even playing. She had all the cheats she could find And a walk-through - no motivation to do it herself. I guess she did one other thing, which was to color pictures on the computer. Don't get me wrong, I like to color too now and then, but this wasn't real coloring - it was computer "paint can" coloring. No real value to it at all.
Okay, so now what I really think - but wouldn't have without a very conscious effort to change the way I think about my kids and learning:
The internet is so cool... I don't know who showed Morgan the Deviant Art site, probably one of her online friends (unschoolers for the most part, who she keeps up with through facebook), but she has found a treasure trove of cat designs and has been importing them to one of her graphic design or animation programs, modifying the images, and coloring them to create a whole menagerie of characters. We've talked a little bit about intellectual property rights and what other people mean when they ask "did you draw that?" so she doesn't misrepresent herself. She's very keen to share her designs and stories. This particular set of characters are for her fan-fiction Warrior Cats stories. She's writing and drawing a lot of fan-fiction these days, on her own and sharing her work with fellow fans online.
She works on her stories most of the time - even when she's out on the trampoline (some days as much as 6 hours! my thighs turn to jelly after six minutes!) you can hear her running dialog and thinking out loud. When she's not writing or drawing or thinking about her stories, she's reading online, watching shows and movies and soaking in the details of plot, character, scene and setting - the works. I swear I could never have designed a literature program as effective as Mo following her own interests - she knows more about the art and craft of storytelling at 11 than I did at 18. It's pretty amazing.
And she plays video games - which I've discovered are another kind of story, and interactive story. She was playing a new one yesterday, and do you know she plays the way I read? the first time through she "skims" making use of whatever tools she can find to get through the game quickly and get a sense of the plot and generalities, then she dives into the details. It didn't occur to me you could play a game that way until I saw her doing it... it's pretty cool. And she's been showing me how to use "cheats" to focus on the parts of the game-story which interest me. I learn so much from her!
---Meredith
First, a fairly conventional perspective:
Yesterday, Mo didn't do much of anything. She jumped on the trampoline for awhile - it's her only real outdoor activity since she can't be bothered to learn to ride her bike or play games and trying to get her to go for a walk is like pulling teeth. And when I say "jumped on the trampoline" I mean just that - she doesn't do tricks or anything, just jumps up and down, mindlessly. The rest of the day she hung around the house, "playing a video game" - I have to put it in quotes because it wasn't like she was really even playing. She had all the cheats she could find And a walk-through - no motivation to do it herself. I guess she did one other thing, which was to color pictures on the computer. Don't get me wrong, I like to color too now and then, but this wasn't real coloring - it was computer "paint can" coloring. No real value to it at all.
Okay, so now what I really think - but wouldn't have without a very conscious effort to change the way I think about my kids and learning:
The internet is so cool... I don't know who showed Morgan the Deviant Art site, probably one of her online friends (unschoolers for the most part, who she keeps up with through facebook), but she has found a treasure trove of cat designs and has been importing them to one of her graphic design or animation programs, modifying the images, and coloring them to create a whole menagerie of characters. We've talked a little bit about intellectual property rights and what other people mean when they ask "did you draw that?" so she doesn't misrepresent herself. She's very keen to share her designs and stories. This particular set of characters are for her fan-fiction Warrior Cats stories. She's writing and drawing a lot of fan-fiction these days, on her own and sharing her work with fellow fans online.
She works on her stories most of the time - even when she's out on the trampoline (some days as much as 6 hours! my thighs turn to jelly after six minutes!) you can hear her running dialog and thinking out loud. When she's not writing or drawing or thinking about her stories, she's reading online, watching shows and movies and soaking in the details of plot, character, scene and setting - the works. I swear I could never have designed a literature program as effective as Mo following her own interests - she knows more about the art and craft of storytelling at 11 than I did at 18. It's pretty amazing.
And she plays video games - which I've discovered are another kind of story, and interactive story. She was playing a new one yesterday, and do you know she plays the way I read? the first time through she "skims" making use of whatever tools she can find to get through the game quickly and get a sense of the plot and generalities, then she dives into the details. It didn't occur to me you could play a game that way until I saw her doing it... it's pretty cool. And she's been showing me how to use "cheats" to focus on the parts of the game-story which interest me. I learn so much from her!
---Meredith
Carol Ivany
Meredith, I am new to this forum, so sorry if this is the wrong way to reply......
Is it OK to copy and paste this brilliant post onto another group please ? I will remove any details that could identify where it came from (unless you want me to credit you with the post)
Thanks for your help
Carol I
Is it OK to copy and paste this brilliant post onto another group please ? I will remove any details that could identify where it came from (unless you want me to credit you with the post)
Thanks for your help
Carol I
----- Original Message -----
From: Meredith
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 6:16 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unmotivated kid
Okay, so, natural learning with Morgan... I'm going to do something a little different and describe the same day from two different perspectives in an attempt to show the effects of parental attitude.
First, a fairly conventional perspective:
Yesterday, Mo didn't do much of anything. She jumped on the trampoline for awhile - it's her only real outdoor activity since she can't be bothered to learn to ride her bike or play games and trying to get her to go for a walk is like pulling teeth. And when I say "jumped on the trampoline" I mean just that - she doesn't do tricks or anything, just jumps up and down, mindlessly. The rest of the day she hung around the house, "playing a video game" - I have to put it in quotes because it wasn't like she was really even playing. She had all the cheats she could find And a walk-through - no motivation to do it herself. I guess she did one other thing, which was to color pictures on the computer. Don't get me wrong, I like to color too now and then, but this wasn't real coloring - it was computer "paint can" coloring. No real value to it at all.
Okay, so now what I really think - but wouldn't have without a very conscious effort to change the way I think about my kids and learning:
The internet is so cool... I don't know who showed Morgan the Deviant Art site, probably one of her online friends (unschoolers for the most part, who she keeps up with through facebook), but she has found a treasure trove of cat designs and has been importing them to one of her graphic design or animation programs, modifying the images, and coloring them to create a whole menagerie of characters. We've talked a little bit about intellectual property rights and what other people mean when they ask "did you draw that?" so she doesn't misrepresent herself. She's very keen to share her designs and stories. This particular set of characters are for her fan-fiction Warrior Cats stories. She's writing and drawing a lot of fan-fiction these days, on her own and sharing her work with fellow fans online.
She works on her stories most of the time - even when she's out on the trampoline (some days as much as 6 hours! my thighs turn to jelly after six minutes!) you can hear her running dialog and thinking out loud. When she's not writing or drawing or thinking about her stories, she's reading online, watching shows and movies and soaking in the details of plot, character, scene and setting - the works. I swear I could never have designed a literature program as effective as Mo following her own interests - she knows more about the art and craft of storytelling at 11 than I did at 18. It's pretty amazing.
And she plays video games - which I've discovered are another kind of story, and interactive story. She was playing a new one yesterday, and do you know she plays the way I read? the first time through she "skims" making use of whatever tools she can find to get through the game quickly and get a sense of the plot and generalities, then she dives into the details. It didn't occur to me you could play a game that way until I saw her doing it... it's pretty cool. And she's been showing me how to use "cheats" to focus on the parts of the game-story which interest me. I learn so much from her!
---Meredith
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gina Rodriguez
Wow, Meredith! That was a perfect example and exactly what I needed to hear!! Thanks!
Gina
Sent from my iPhone
Gina
Sent from my iPhone
Meredith
I don't mind being quoted - I do prefer to be given credit, though, rather than having details edited out. Thanks.
Meredith Novak
"Carol Ivany" wrote:
Meredith Novak
"Carol Ivany" wrote:
>
> Meredith, I am new to this forum, so sorry if this is the wrong way to reply......
>
> Is it OK to copy and paste this brilliant post onto another group please ? I will remove any details that could identify where it came from (unless you want me to credit you with the post)
>
> Thanks for your help
Gina Rodriguez
And I appreciate your attention to the real issue I am dealing with and not getting sidetracked by details. Your description of "whole to part" versus "part to whole" learning makes so much sense to me and totally fits in my situation! It instantly transformed the way I am viewing my son's daily choice of activity! I also want to thank you for your intentional choice to remain patient with a newbie and use grace in your verbal presentation.
Gina
Sent from my iPhone
Gina
Sent from my iPhone