messy_boys

Thank you for all the suggestions on housework! We are still doing well on our unschooling journey. It feels really awesome to be "getting it" and seeing the increasing peace and friendship in our family. The kids and I went swimming earlier. It was so much fun and I really do enjoy spending time with my kids!

I have another question for you all. I've been thinking about possible options, but really need some help. My 5 yo is very verbal and sometimes says some very mean things to me or his siblings. It's usually things like "shut up" "idiot" or "liar." I've tried talking with him about how this makes others feel, but he continues to talk this way. It's usually when he feels he's been wronged in some way or is frustrated.

For example, I have told him that we will soon be getting a pet snake. He wants to go today. I told him we have to wait until I get paid again in a couple days, but he still thought we were going today. He finally got angry, yelled and said I was a liar. This really pushed my old "respect your mom or else" button, but I managed to stop myself from having an angry reaction.

But there are other times, like if his little sister (2 yo) is standing in front of the TV and he yells something like, "move you idiot!"

Any ideas on how I can help him think about how his words make other people feel? It's not okay for others to be treated that way.

Thanks!
Kristie

Meredith

"messy_boys" <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>I've tried talking with him about how this makes others feel, but he continues to talk this way. It's usually when he feels he's been wronged in some way or is frustrated.
****************

Since part of the purpose of these kinds of exclamations is to blow off a big of steam, it can help to have something Else for him to say. Can you come up with something silly he can use to replace those words and expressions? Children's shows and cartoons are often a good source of alternatives.

It can be a tricky thing, to learn how to express frustration and anger in ways which feel safe to other people. On the one hand, you don't want to pressure him to stuff down his feelings - but you don't want other people to get their feelings hurt, either.

>>if his little sister (2 yo) is standing in front of the TV and he yells something like, "move you idiot!"
***************

What's her reaction? If he's not bothered by it, then it will help if you can keep from making a bigger deal out of the matter. If her feelings are hurt, focus on that in the moment, moving her gently out of the way at the same time, and gently suggest something else he could say. If it's a Regular thing, make a note of that so you can help prevent it next time!

>> I told him we have to wait until I get paid again in a couple days, but he still thought we were going today. He finally got angry, yelled and said I was a liar.
******************

Sometimes the best thing to say is "I'm sorry" - no "but..." no explanation, just "I'm sorry" or maybe "I'm sorry, I mis-communicated." It's Important not to take outbursts like that personally - probably one of the most important social skills you can learn.

---Meredith

[email protected]

Well, from his point of view, you lied to him and his sister is an idiot. Tact is not one of the tools in his kit yet and I wouldn't expect it to be.

Never announce a plan until you are ready to actually do it. Otherwise, to him, it's a lie. You said and then you took it back! How frustrating! Some day he will be able to plan ahead but he's not there yet.

Little sister shouldn't stand in front of the TV.

You might see if he will understand efficiency. That it is more efficient -- uses less of HIS time -- to gently ask his sister to move over (even though, you know, she's young and he might have to repeat himself and someday she will be a big kid like him and know better but now we have to remind her) instead of yelling at her. Because sometimes the mean yelling leads to a fight or makes the sister not want to cooperate and then it just takes longer to get her to move. He's the big kid, he is wasting his time by getting her upset (if he is), it's faster just to remind her nicely and see if she will move. Eventually she will learn. Be on his side. Help him figure out how to fix this in the best way for him.

When I saw you title about hurtful words, I expected a lot worse than this, though. Kids are not always genteel. Especially as they are figuring out what works and what doesn't.

Have a great day! :)

Nance

--- In [email protected], "messy_boys" <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you for all the suggestions on housework! We are still doing well on our unschooling journey. It feels really awesome to be "getting it" and seeing the increasing peace and friendship in our family. The kids and I went swimming earlier. It was so much fun and I really do enjoy spending time with my kids!
>
> I have another question for you all. I've been thinking about possible options, but really need some help. My 5 yo is very verbal and sometimes says some very mean things to me or his siblings. It's usually things like "shut up" "idiot" or "liar." I've tried talking with him about how this makes others feel, but he continues to talk this way. It's usually when he feels he's been wronged in some way or is frustrated.
>
> For example, I have told him that we will soon be getting a pet snake. He wants to go today. I told him we have to wait until I get paid again in a couple days, but he still thought we were going today. He finally got angry, yelled and said I was a liar. This really pushed my old "respect your mom or else" button, but I managed to stop myself from having an angry reaction.
>
> But there are other times, like if his little sister (2 yo) is standing in front of the TV and he yells something like, "move you idiot!"
>
> Any ideas on how I can help him think about how his words make other people feel? It's not okay for others to be treated that way.
>
> Thanks!
> Kristie
>

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], "marbleface@..." <marbleface@...> wrote:
>>> Well, from his point of view, you lied to him and his sister is an idiot.<<<

LOL, this opening line made me laugh!!!

I am having trouble getting myself past the thought that there should be "consequences" for this. That he should have to stand in the corner or something for talking mean.

So I guess this is really about ME and not him!

Let me ask you all...how do consequences fit into the picture of an unschooling life? I understand about natural consequences, but is there ever a time when I, as the parent, am handing them out?

Thanks for all the help and perspective,
Kristie

Lesley Cross

"how do consequences fit into the picture of an unschooling life?"

" I understand about natural consequences, but is there ever a time when I, as the parent, am handing them out?"

They don't. Not handing them out. Consequences that are created, that are not natural, are just a euphemism for punishment. Letting our children know about potential natural consequences and helping them make their own choices in regard to those potential consequences, yes.


Lesley

http://www.euphorialifedesignstudio.com






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Kelly Lovejoy

Let me ask you all...how do consequences fit into the picture of an unschooling
life? I understand about natural consequences, but is there ever a time when I,
as the parent, am handing them out?




-=-=-=-=-


What do YOU think?


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"messy_boys" <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>> Let me ask you all...how do consequences fit into the picture of an unschooling life? I understand about natural consequences, but is there ever a time when I, as the parent, am handing them out?
********************

Think about how learning works - teaching doesn't guarantee learning. Doling out "consequences" or other forms of punishment doesn't equate with a kid learning not to repeat whatever behavior you're trying to curtail.

Think about why you want to use "consequences". The very phrase "teach [someone] a lesson" includes an implication of retribution - in some contexts it Only means retribution, there's no expectation that the person so taught will learn anything at all. It's Natural to want a certain amount of retribution! but that doesn't make it a good choice if your goal is to live in a home which values learning and thoughtful decision making.

---Meredith

Renee Cooper

// They don't. Not handing them out. Consequences that are created, that are
not natural, are just a euphemism for punishment. Letting our children know
about potential natural consequences and helping them make their own choices
in regard to those potential consequences, yes. //



Once, when I was first learning about homeschooling, I read something on
Sandra Dodd's that resonated strongly with me and has stuck in my head ever
since. And I don't have her gift for words so I'm probably saying this much
less elegantly: even if you let your child know about potential natural
consequences and help them make their own choices, it's still unkind to let
it happen if you see it and don't do anything to avoid it. And being kind
to our kids is crucial.

Aha - found the page on her site: http://sandradodd.com/pam/howto

//

7. Think about what is REALLY important and keep that always in the
forefront of your interactions with your children. What values do you hope
to pass on to them? You can't "pass on" something you don't exemplify
yourself. Treat them the way you want them to treat others. Do you want
respect? Be respectful. Do you want responsibility from them? Be
responsible. Think of how you look to them, from their perspective. Do you
order them around? Is that respectful? Do you say, "I'll be just a minute"
and then take 20 more minutes talking to a friend while the children wait?
Is that responsible? Focus more on your own behavior than on theirs. It'll
pay off bigger.

8. Let kids learn. Don't protect them or control them so much that they
don't get needed experience. But, don't use the excuse of "natural
consequences" to teach them a lesson. Instead, exemplify kindness and
consideration. If you see a toy left lying in the driveway, don't leave it
there to be run over, pick it up and set it aside because that is the kind
and considerate thing to do and because kindness and consideration are
values you want to pass on to your kids. Natural consequences will happen,
they are inevitable. But it isn't "natural" anymore if you could have
prevented it, but chose not to do so.

9. We can't always fix everything for our kids or save them from every hurt.
It can be a delicate balancing act-when should we intervene, when should we
stay out of the way? Empathy goes a long long way and may often be all your
child needs or wants. Be available to offer more, but let your child be your
guide. Maybe your child wants guidance, ideas, support, or intervention.
Maybe not. Sometimes the best thing you can offer is distraction. //



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Joyce Fetteroll

On May 31, 2012, at 11:58 AM, messy_boys wrote:

> is there ever a time when I, as the parent, am handing them out?

Don't call them consequences and it will be clearer.

They're punishments.

Do you learn better when someone punishes you?

The intent of punishment isn't to help someone figure out better ways. It's to control them.


> My 5 yo is very verbal and sometimes says some very mean things to me or his siblings.
> It's usually things like "shut up" "idiot" or "liar." I've tried talking with him about how this makes others feel,
> but he continues to talk this way. It's usually when he feels he's been wronged in some way or is frustrated.

When you react to his reaction with lessons, you're essentially saying "I don't care about your needs. I care about my agenda to fix your behavior."

Do give him feedback that some reactions are a No. But don't assume that because he keeps using them that he doesn't know. At this point he does. At this point he may be deliberately using them *because* they're hurtful.

IT's not because he's bad and so needs punished to be good. It's because he feels like the world doesn't care about him. Think about what it would take to make you lash out at people in anger. Think about how you'd react if someone got mad at your lashing out. People who've been treated like their needs aren't important will feel even more like their needs aren't important. But for others it will tend to make them more angry.

If he calls someone a name, do make it clear he's stepped across the boundary of what you want in your home. If you want a peaceful home, you need to be the keeper of what is okay and what is not okay.

Ultimately you can't control what he does. But you can make clear what your standards of behavior are for your home. if you see the difference.

But then move immediately to meeting his needs. His outbursts are coming from needs he has that he can't figure out how to meet. He's frustrated. Don't frustrate him further by imposing your agenda on top of his frustration. He'll just tune you out.

But even better, be more present. That's usually the first and best strategy. Notice when he's getting frustrated. Step in before he feels he needs to call people stupid in order to get a need met. Get him food before he's to the point where it's irritating him enough to notice he's hungry, which will make him snappish. Step in if his sister's getting on his nerves. Take her off to do something. Redirect the two of them to something new. Do something to shift the bad path he's on.

Have you read Sandra Dodd's siblings page:
http://sandradodd.com/siblings

One of the links leads to the strategy she used with her kids to help them think of better strategies than hitting. She gave them the simple 3 step process when they had a problem.
1) Use words
2) Get an adult to help
3) If that doesn't work, then you can hit.

> For example, I have told him that we will soon be getting a pet snake.


"Soon" doesn't mean the same to kids as it does to adults. It doesn't even mean the same to an adult with needs as it does to the adult who has added the need to his To Do list to take care of when he gets a chance.

His anger comes from frustration at being so powerless in the world. And frustration at the one he trusts to be his power in the world waving him off with vague words.

Empower him. Share with him what's needed before you'll be able to get the snake. If it's money, and you're waiting for a paycheck, share that with him. Mark it on the calendar. If it's time, share that with him. But be generous. Recognzie that he has no power to arrange the schedule. Shift around things on your schedule where you can. This isn't just generous but shows him how the "Plunge in and take charge of what you can control" tool looks like in action.

Joyce

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Lesley Cross

Excellent clarification, Renee. I was referring to allowing the consequences in situations where the child is *choosing* the consequence, ie. the natural consequence to an action is accepted by and not harmful to the child. Say if a child doesn't normally like to be wet and chooses to play in a water spray even if there aren't dry clothes to change into available. Plenty of options to be explored there, but ultimately the child might choose the discomfort of being wet later in favor of the joy of playing now. In this instance, I also wouldn't play the "well, you chose it!" card if the child is uncomfortable later, but do the best I could to help find solutions. Might mention it if a similar decision were being made at another time.....or I might just learn to carry extra clothes. Then again, we don't ALWAYS know where we might find a water spray, and it won't make a difference for those moments of discomfort between having fun getting wet and becoming comfortably dry.

Lesley

http://www.euphorialifedesignstudio.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 31, 2012, at 1:57 PM, Lesley Cross wrote:

> I was referring to allowing the consequences in situations where the child is *choosing*
> the consequence, ie. the natural consequence to an action is accepted by and not harmful to the child

Consequences has become such a baggage laden word. It conjures images of "suffer the consequences" and "natural consequences" (that really aren't) even when people aren't using it that way :-/

Every choice has good parts and bad parts. If the good parts are intriguing enough, then it's worth putting up with the bad parts. If mom knows a better way to get the good parts without the bad parts, it's a kindness to share that. Sometimes it's not obvious what good part the child wants and questioning can clarify that so mom can come up with some other options.

But it's okay to support kids trying things out that aren't perfect if they aren't deadly, destructive or rude. They get to experience the good and bad. They get to figure out for themselves what they like and don't like. They get to figure out whether they value the good enough to put up with the bad. They get to experience others don't usually make that choice.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jessica Strader

***When I saw you title about hurtful words, I expected a lot worse than
this, though.***

What if the words are stronger? My 6-year-old gets his feelings hurt a lot
when my oldest (8-year-old) won't play with him, or if he's frustrated at
all, which is a lot. He'll say, "I hate Aidan! I hate him! I wish he
would just die!" then go on to describe all of the things that he's going
to do to kill him. Cut of his head, slice his neck, stab him in the
stomach, etc... Those are just off the top of my head. They're definitely
not the worst.


>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

Jessica Strader <lovelyjessie82@...> wrote:
>He'll say, "I hate Aidan! I hate him! I wish he
> would just die!" then go on to describe all of the things that he's going
> to do to kill him.

It's important to differentiate between whether or not he's saying these things To his brother - it's important the brother feel safe in his own home! But at the same time, it's important that you not take these kinds of statements personally. He's angry and using the biggest words he has to describe how angry he is in that moment. If he's doing it privately with you, that's much better than saying those things where his brother can hear.

What's making him so angry? Look for ways to smooth things over so they don't get to that extreme so often. Maybe he needs more attention, more loving, maybe more of his own things, or a chance to feel capable and powerful if the elder is always (in his view) able to do things he can't yet. It's hard to be a little kid! Take all those hard words as a reminder of just how hard it feels to be small and dependent.

---Meredith

Jessica Strader

***It's important to differentiate between whether or not he's saying these
things To his brother - it's important the brother feel safe in his own
home! But at the same time, it's important that you not take these kinds of
statements personally.***

He doesn't really say them To him most of the time, but definitely in the
same room. And sometimes he does say them To him. That's where I struggle
with what to do.

"Maybe he needs more attention, more loving, maybe more of his own things,
or a chance to feel capable and powerful if the elder is always (in his
view) able to do things he can't yet."

I think this is very true. I also have a 4-year-old and a 1-year-old and
it's hard for me to spend one-on-one time with any of them. He likes to
make scrambled eggs, so we'll do that sometimes. Or we'll paint or draw
together. But often, my 8-year-old is kind of running the show, as in,
choosing movies, quitting games in the middle, etc... and I think that it
does leave Emory feeling powerless. That's helpful. Thanks!



>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On May 31, 2012, at 5:37 PM, Jessica Strader wrote:

> What if the words are stronger? My 6-year-old gets his feelings hurt a lot
> when my oldest (8-year-old) won't play with him

Don't treat the words as the issue.

He's saying the words because he's angry and frustrated. If you deal with the reason, he won't need the words.

If you, instead, deal with the words, the issue still exists. And he'll find some other way to release his anger and frustration. Perhaps by hitting. Perhaps by spitting in his brother's milk. Perhaps by breaking his brother's toys.

Do you see what I mean?

Be more present.

Look for clues. Be aware. Make food available before they notice they're hungry. Learn what is okay energy between them and what isn't okay. Pay attention not just to the younger but the older. The older obviously needs some space. Draw the younger away to do something fun with you. Step in before one or the other gets so frustrated that the older needs to demand his space or the younger needs to lash out. Redirect. Help them get their needs met.

If you missed the build up clues, if he's hurting his brother: stop him from hurting. Move him out of the room to do something else.

Don't expect them to get along any more than you'd expect 2 random people to get along. Some personalities clash. You be the factor that allows them to peacefully share the same home even if they sometimes need to not be in the same room. Certain ages really don't work well together. They'll both get older and the age clash won't be there.

Don't make the goal getting along but meeting each of their needs and each feeling more at peace in their home. If they feel their needs are met and they're more peaceful, they'll get a long better! :-)

Have you read Sandra Dodd's siblings page and the pages it links to?
http://sandradodd.com/siblings

Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry?
http://amzn.to/JWGyuM

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Same answer. But without my typo.

Figure out what is really going on and try to be helpful. It is not a young child's "fault" if the world is not perfect and he reacts to that.

Nance


--- In [email protected], Jessica Strader <lovelyjessie82@...> wrote:
>
> ***When I saw you title about hurtful words, I expected a lot worse than
> this, though.***
>
> What if the words are stronger? My 6-year-old gets his feelings hurt a lot
> when my oldest (8-year-old) won't play with him, or if he's frustrated at
> all, which is a lot. He'll say, "I hate Aidan! I hate him! I wish he
> would just die!" then go on to describe all of the things that he's going
> to do to kill him. Cut of his head, slice his neck, stab him in the
> stomach, etc... Those are just off the top of my head. They're definitely
> not the worst.
>
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>>> What do YOU think?<<<

I would say no because I'm coming to understand that's not our job as parents. But the old me still feels that there will be times when it's inevitable...that I will have to "punish" for "wrong behavior." I am no longer spanking, but I have made a child stand in the corner for continuing to pester another.

When they do something that is obviously not okay...what do you do?

Thanks,
Kristie

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>>> If he calls someone a name, do make it clear he's stepped across the boundary of what you want in your home. If you want a peaceful home, you need to be the keeper of what is okay and what is not okay.
>
> Ultimately you can't control what he does. But you can make clear what your standards of behavior are for your home. if you see the difference.


Okay, I do see the difference here and am very big on "changing the things I can" which ultimately doesn't include others' behavior! But, let's play this out in real life...I make a boundary clear...I want others in the home to feel safe and not be verbally abused (if it gets to that point)...what are some ways to enforce that boundary? I will definitely be trying to head off the confrontation/upset in the first place; but if it gets to that point...would I simply move the offender to their room so they can calm down? Do I ask them to apologize?

How does this play out in real life?

Thanks,
Kristie

Jessica Strader

Yes. All of this makes sense.

****Have you read Sandra Dodd's siblings page and the pages it links to?
http://sandradodd.com/siblings

Have you read Siblings Without Rivalry?
http://amzn.to/JWGyuM ***

I haven't read those, but I'll definitely check them out today!

>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

Why do you think punishing would work? What does the child learn from it?


In my experience (as the child in question), I learned that I hated my brother for getting me into this mess and that I hated my parent(s) for the punishment doled out. It really didn't stop the behavior: it just made me resentful.



When they do something that is not OK, I work to find the reason BEHIND the behavior. Address THAT. And then I work to avoid/prevent that in the future. That could include making sure everyone's fed, rested, unattached before going out. It could mean making sure I'm spending more time with the offender. OR the offended (or both). It could mean putting off that one thing I have planned in favor of something that would benefit ALL of us. It could mean buying another tv/gaming system/doll/whatever.


It could mean all sorts of things. The point is to find what's BEHIND the behavior and be PROactive to stop it before it escalates instead of looking at the behavior and trying to remedy/stop it after the fact.



I think it also helps to apologize to both children and admit that maybe *I* wasn't available/attentive/responsible enough to keep things from escalating in the first place. They really do appreciate when I apologize and THEN work to fix things so it doesn't happen again.




I understand feeling the need to fall back on how you were raised. But this takes a huge paradigm shift. It requires stopping. And thinking. And THEN reacting---and not reacting out of fear, but out of taking EACH person's feelings and situation into consideration and thoughtfully "walking" back to where the fallout *began* and THEN very possibly apologizing and trying to make sue it won't happen again. Eventually, your kids can help you *before* things get out of hand.


~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson



-----Original Message-----
From: messy_boys <messy_boys@...>

--- In [email protected], Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>>> What do YOU think?<<<

I would say no because I'm coming to understand that's not our job as parents.
But the old me still feels that there will be times when it's inevitable...that
I will have to "punish" for "wrong behavior." I am no longer spanking, but I
have made a child stand in the corner for continuing to pester another.

When they do something that is obviously not okay...what do you do?

Thanks,
Kristie







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lesley Cross

"It requires stopping. And thinking. And THEN reacting---and not reacting out of fear, but out of taking EACH person's feelings and situation into consideration and thoughtfully "walking" back to where the fallout *began* and THEN very possibly apologizing and trying to make sue it won't happen again."

I think this is the difference between reacting and responding. Do we want to be reactive parents, or responsive parents?

It's funny because I know a business coach who talks about how some people run their businesses with the acronym of CRAP. The (C) cycle of (R) reaction (A) and (P) panic. I think it applies to parents too. The child exhibits a behavior, the adult reacts in a knee-jerk fashion and then panics about what all this means about their child, his future, their parenting. It's CRAP. And it's not that I'm saying that it's a crappy way to parent (even though it is), it's like living in crap. Dumping crap all over yourself and your kids. It just feels awful for everyone....parents and kids.

Responsive parenting just feels better. To everyone.

Lesley

http://www.euphorialifedesignstudio.com






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"messy_boys" <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>let's play this out in real life...I make a boundary clear...I want others in the home to feel safe and not be verbally abused
****************

Stop right there - that's the problem. You're expecting the "boundary" to Do something. That's the trouble with setting rules (or Setting boundaries or limits). The rule or boundary doesn't "work" all by itself. It doesn't change people or situations. That's Why people tend to fall back on punishment, as a way to intimidate other people into compliance. When you take away the intimidation factor, the rule becomes irrelevant one way or another. So look for ways to make the "boundary" irrelevant from the start. That's where all the kindness and thoughtfulness and proactivity come in - they make rules irrelevant.

It's getting there that takes time and effort - and in that time it's very tempting to fall back on something which will pause the action and give you a breathing space. The danger is that the pause is also time for kids to build up resentment and hurt and sometimes plot retribution.

>>what are some ways to enforce that boundary?

There is no spoon. Step away from the idea of boundaries and look at things from a completely different angle: needs and communication. If someone is lashing out, he's communicating something big and important. By all means offer comfort if he's just hurt someone else's feelings, but don't forget that lashing out is a way to communicate hurt, too. Apologize for not noticing the problem sooner - don't "ask" kids to apologize - offer help in the moment and an alternative for next time (instead of out of the way stupid, how about: Mom! so-and-so's in front of the tv). And be on the look-out so the problem doesn't repeat as often.

>>would I simply move the offender to their room so they can calm down?

Maybe - it's going to depend on each child and each situation. Moving someone to another room is one option, but sometimes its better to move the offendee instead, to offer space and/or comfort. This is definitely a good case for "don't look for One Solution". Sometimes you can involve the kids directly in the problem solving - and then it's good to have them in separate rooms so they can each "have their say" while you go back and forth, asking questions, seeking clarification, and offering suggestions for next time. Sometimes that's too much talking and it's better to scoop one kid up in a big hug while you say something sweet and gentle to the other.

---Meredith

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 1, 2012, at 11:07 AM, messy_boys wrote:

> but if it gets to that point...would I simply move the offender to
> their room so they can calm down? Do I ask them to apologize?

I know, this is a hard part to grasp. Most boundaries are about control. If someone steps over a boundary, then they get punished to get them back in line.

Forget boundary. A better word is values. Be clear about what your values are.

Your values aren't something to impose on him or to make him live up to. They're yours to govern how you behave. They're what you use to decide what's acceptable in your home (and outside it too) and what you need to stop.

He's trying to solve a problem, get a need met. If he's using tools that are hurtful, he's showing he can't yet developmentally use better tools to get what he wants. He needs someone who knows better ways. By helping him, you'll make the home more peaceful and he'll see better methods of solving the problem.

Better, as always, is being more present so he doesn't have to rely on tools that are hurtful.

Better also is giving him a simple problem solving process like Sandra's 1) Use words, 2) Get an adult, 3) then you can hit. It wasn't meant as a rule but as a simple tool. The child can grasp it easily. They can grasp easily where they skipped a step.

The goal is to help them become more thoughtful when faced with a problem. Solving social problems is incredibly complex so don't expect it to happen quickly. Do expect to be the go-to person and moderator for quite some time.

There are a couple of books unschoolers find helpful.

Ross Greene's The Explosive Child
http://amzn.to/JCilMW

Raising Your Spirited Child Rev Ed: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, and Energetic by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka
http://amzn.to/IKBN4R

Another thing that might help is Scott Noelle's Daily Groove. Each day is a small mental shift to put into practice.
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jun 1, 2012, at 10:59 AM, messy_boys wrote:

> >>> What do YOU think?<<<
>
> I would say no because I'm coming to understand that's not our job as parents

For some parents it is their job. Punish in order to guide is what they believe they must do to be good parents.

The essence of unschooling is helping kids learn. What makes it harder to think in terms of helping someone learn is that

1) it's easiest to think of ways to get someone from where they are to where we want them to be and

2) we humans don't learn well when someone's steering us in a particular direction.

So if we want a child to learn not to hit, the most obvious ideas will focus on ways to stop that behavior. But that won't work well because the child doesn't want lessons on not hitting. They already know how not to hit. What they want is to get what they want. It's also safe to assume they don't want to hurt someone but their first priority is getting what they want. They don't know how to do both.

So by focusing on getting them what they want in safe, respectful, doable ways, you help them figure out how not to hit. They learn it as a side effect of being helped to get what they want.

> When they do something that is obviously not okay...what do you do?


*Why* did they do it? That's the beginning of it all. And the end of it all too!

How could you have been more present, when could you have stepped in earlier, to help them get what they wanted so they didn't have to resort to the poor tools they have?

The more you can prevent, the less frustrated they'll feel over all and the more patience they'll have.

Being more present is not *the* solution, of course. It's the first step, the way to cut out as much as you can.

If they end up in an altercation, *don't* focus on the behavior. Focus on comforting who is hurt. Focus on the need. Focus on figuring out what the issue was. (I'm pretty sure there's a scenario or two linked from Sandra's Siblings page.)

See it as they had to resort to poor tools because there wasn't someone there to help them with a better way. Don't see that as a failure on anyone's part but the circumstances that dictated the tools they chose to use to solve the problem. Sometimes moms do need to go to the bathroom. ;-)

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kelly Lovejoy

Do I ask them to apologize?


-=-=-=-=-=-


You can ask. But are you willing to take "no" for an answer? If you're not, then it's not a question but a thinly veiled demand/order.



Apologies are only valuable if they come from the heart of the offender.


*I* apologize to my boys if someone else has done them wrong---only in that I AM indeed sorry that I couldn't have stopped it from happening in the first place. I'll work hard to make sure it doesn't happen again.


Getting the offender to apologize will only happen if he's indeed sorry. BUT---he can hear you make apologies. That modeling thang is huge.




~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
"There is no single effort more radical in its potential for saving the world than a transformation of the way we raise our children." Marianne Williamson





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[email protected]

It depends on what it is. Words you are not thrilled with? Ignore and help them not to get to that frustrated point. Accept that four, if I have the count right, kids will bump up against each other and this isn't Leave It to Beaver. People talk to each other in all kinds of ways -- we hope for kindness, we work toward kindness and politeness. We don't always get there. I don't go stand in the corner if I am testy to someone. I pull myself together and try to be more polite the next time. Help your children to understand that words that are hurtful and unkind are not getting them what they want, are counterproductive and are no way to live. That a kind atmosphere is better for everyone. But don't expect perfection and don't fall back on old habits of unkindness and punishment when someone is imperfect.

If it's hard on you, imagine how it is for the kids. Five people and Dad when he is home, all trying to share the same space and remain civil? It would be shocking if there wasn't a spark every once in a while. Think long term and work toward adults who treat each other well. It takes time. Give yourself and the kids time.

Nance

--- In [email protected], "messy_boys" <messy_boys@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@> wrote:
> >>> What do YOU think?<<<
>
> I would say no because I'm coming to understand that's not our job as parents. But the old me still feels that there will be times when it's inevitable...that I will have to "punish" for "wrong behavior." I am no longer spanking, but I have made a child stand in the corner for continuing to pester another.
>
> When they do something that is obviously not okay...what do you do?
>
> Thanks,
> Kristie
>

messy_boys

I guess what I am questioning is...for example...in real life, there are speed limits. If you choose to go past the speed limit, you may get a ticket.

Is it okay for me to set "speed limits" in our home, such as "keep all food at a table" and to give out "tickets" or time-outs, when they choose to do otherwise?

I can see where this is an attempt to control...but is it ever okay to do so? I get very upset when there is food left all over the house!

Kristie

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
When they do something that is not OK, I work to find the reason BEHIND the behavior. Address THAT. And then I work to avoid/prevent that in the future.

This is very helpful. I can see that most of my conventional parenting is only reacting to the 'symptoms' and not taking care of the true problem.

I can also see how this takes a shift in how I think about my kids. Instead of feeling like kids are just being brats because that's what kids do, I have to realize that kids have an actual purpose and reason for their behavior. A need. That's so very different!

Thanks,
Kristie

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>>>So look for ways to make the "boundary" irrelevant from the start. That's where all the kindness and thoughtfulness and proactivity come in - they make rules irrelevant.
Step away from the idea of boundaries and look at things from a completely different angle: needs and communication.<<<

I'm going to try and pull apart a situation that keeps bothering me - kids eating food all over the house and leaving messes. You all gave me suggestions on this before, but I have yet to do anything different; probably because I didn't change the way I was looking at my kids. My previous assumption was that they were careless and rude. But I'm going to try and look at this with fresh eyes...what needs do they have going on?

-they're hungry
-they're active
-they want to be where the action is and not stuck sitting at a boring old table
-they leave plates and wrappers because they've already moved onto the next thing on their agenda
-it's fun to crush crackers into little pieces

How can I meet their needs better?

-I could keep a supply of easy to reach, less messy snacks available. Maybe things without wrappers.
-I could get some snazzy "snack trays" that might motivate them to keep the mess together in one place.
-I could keep more trashcans around in the spots where they usually eat.
-I could keep the little DustBuster charged. They love using that thing and would probably vacuum their own crumbs plus others if given the chance.
-I could get a Roomba that continuously vacuums for me. :)
-I could get a house dog that would eat all the crumbs, LOL.

Hmmm...it's actually a lot more fun to look at it this way.

Kristie

messy_boys

--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
> So by focusing on getting them what they want in safe, respectful, doable ways, you help them figure out how not to hit. They learn it as a side effect of being helped to get what they want.
>
> *Why* did they do it? That's the beginning of it all. And the end of it all too!


Thank you, Joyce, and everyone. This discussion is really helping me.

Kristie