Cheryl Morkan

I guess I got so wrapped up remembering those times I forgot to ask
my question. So here we go.

I've been reading sstuff about mindful parenting and have never been
a spanker. But recently my 3.5 year old has become a real
challange. If something doesn't happen the way he wants it to he has
full blown tantrums. Now I have seen this in other children, but
never in mine. And do try to let him do the things he wants to do,
but here is an example of a time when he just can't do what he
wants.

Last night Joel spent some time with my mom and my nephew who is also
3.5. On the way to pick him up I bought milk and some other
groceries that needed to get in the fridge before they spoiled. When
I took him to the car he told me that he wanted to sit on my lap. I
explained that he needed to be in his carseat in order to be safe and
so that we wouldn't get a ticket from the policeman. He told me to
put the carseat in the driver's seat. Well, I tried to tell him that
that wouldn't work as I put him in his deat in the back. He started
to sruggle and fight. He stiffened his body out straight so that I
couldn't put the straps on him, but I managed to get him in and
everything fastened. Then he started screaming at me *Mom, shut up.
Mom, shut up.* Over and over again he screamed, with my bewildered
parents watching from the driveway. I ignored him and backed out of
the driveway with him screaming the whole way. About five minutes
into the drive he told me that I wasn't his Mom anymore. At that
point my head was pounding. I pulled the car over, got out, opened
his door and got very close to his face. I told him that he could
not continue to talk to me that way, that he hurt my feelings, and
then I did a bad thing. I told him that I was taking his brother to
McDonalds and that I didn't want to buy anything for him. That
seemed to get his attention, he wanted something, too. Now I never
intended to leave him out, but I told him that when he hurt my
feelings like that it made me not want to buy him something. Please
understand that he had already eaten dinner at my Mom's, I would
never withhold food as a punishment. But at least he stopped
screaming. I got back in the driver's seat and we had a discussion
about not telling each other to shut up because it is a mean thing to
say. My eleven year old was involved in this and told me that he
understood now why I didn't like it when he said this to his little
brother. He even apoligized to Little bro for having said it to him
in the past and made a pact to stop.

This was one outburst of anger, but they happen several times a day.
They usually consist of Joel growling and saying, *I'm so ANGRY with
you* over and over again. And while I'm glad he can put his feelings
into words, it still feels violent. How should I handle these
outbursts of anger. This is a new thing for him in the last couple
of months. Is this just a stage? Any help or advice will be
appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Cheryl

Deb Lewis

***When I took him to the car he told me that he wanted to sit on my
lap.***

You made groceries more important than your baby. That sounds harsh but
I hope you can think about this in a new way.

He needed you. For some reason he needed to sit on your lap and be close
to you. Maybe he had a hard time at your moms. Maybe he was longing for
you. Maybe he needed some close time to transition from the activity at
your mom's house to going home. He needed you and you decided milk was
more important than what he needed.

What if you'd held him? What if he was happy after ten minutes. The
milk would have been ok. What if he wanted you to hold him for forty
minutes? The milk might have still been ok, but what if it wasn't?

What if you had to go by more milk? The price of milk is not greater
than your sons comfort and happiness.
Surely you've "wasted" a few dollars on something that would brighten
your day, a new lipstick or nail polish or something. Your son needed a
moment of brightness with you.

If your other son was with you maybe he could have run the perishables in
to your moms fridge until you were ready to go.

***I told him that when he hurt my feelings like that it made me not want
to buy him something. ***

And when you hurt his feelings by not being available to him he didn't
know what to do. He reacted like a three year old who didn't really know
how to tell his mom he needed some closeness and comfort.

***How should I handle these outbursts of anger. This is a new thing for
him in the last couple
of months.***

Try to be as understanding as you can. Try to think about what led to
him feeling so angry and frustrated. We all get angry and almost no one
gets angry for no reason. See if you can identify the things that lead
to his frustration and head them off. Listen to him. He's trying so
hard to communicate with you! He's only had a few years on this planet,
speaking this language and trying to understand how things work. He
needs your help when things aren't going right.

It is hard to be little and to want to do things a little body or little
hands just aren't able to do yet. It's hard to not be able to express
yourself in terms other people clearly understand and respect.

Maybe he's tired and needs some quiet time in the rocking chair with you.
Maybe he's out of energy and needs a snack. He might not recognize the
symptoms of those things and so, can't express that to you.
Maybe he wants some sympathy when things are going wrong.

Cheryl, it's hard being a mom and especially a mom who's trying so hard
to get everything right. If you can remember he isn't trying to hurt
your feelings or make your life harder, he's just trying to communicate
some need or problem he has and he doesn't have all the skills to do that
yet. If you can think about that it will help you be more patient with
him. He wants to be happy and he wants you to be happy with him. Our
society portrays kids as working against their parents and it just isn't
so. I think in so many ways parents are conditioned to think of their
kids as adversaries. You don't have to. You can think of him as someone
who loves you and needs you alot right now. Someone who wants to be
happy and feel good about himself and his mom. If you think of the
situation as both of you having the same goal you can work with him to
find solutions instead of feeling like your working against him.

Deb Lewis

Joan Labbe & Salvatore Genovese

Welcome, Cheryl,

I wish I had more time the next few days to respond to your post in more
detail - hopefully others will. However, I want to write you quickly to say
I have a three and a half yr old son of my own going through the same stage
(and a daughter who is a veteran of it). It is a very normal developmental
stage and also a really challenging time! What has made all the difference
to me is a book I cannot even begin to recommend highly enough "The
Discipline Book" by Dr. William Sears & Martha Sears. My copy is dog eared
because when I find myself stumped or frustrated and I need a way back to
positive discipline that works and makes both of us feel good, I go read it
or the relavant parts of it again. It discusses why they feel spanking
doesn't work (as parents who used to spank) and lots of alternatives...

Joan
Mom to Aline 5.6 and Nicky 3.4

-----Original Message-----
From: Cheryl Morkan [mailto:Luckiebyrd@...]
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 8:51 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] And now for the advice


I guess I got so wrapped up remembering those times I forgot to ask
my question. So here we go.

[email protected]

Thanks for the change in perspective. I think that's is exactly what I
need. A change in perspective. He was definitly tired. And it's hard to handle
those situations, but it was even harder with my own parents watching, who
are now raising my nephew by the way. I find it hard to explain my new
parenting philosophy to them. I just don't know where to start. Whenever I try I
get the feeling they think I'm *spoiling* my sons. I gave them a copy of The
Natural Child by Jan Hunt and the lost it:( I need to buy another copy so I
can read it again.

Cheryl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/9/2004 10:34:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:

***When I took him to the car he told me that he wanted to sit on my
lap.***

You made groceries more important than your baby.


I would also add that my lap didn't seem to be the point. He told me he
wanted to DRIVE. Three and a half years old. Now that's cute. It's easier to
smile about it today. I want to be able to smile about it when it happens.

Thanks again

Cheryl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Deb Lewis

***but it was even harder with my own parents watching, who
are now raising my nephew by the way. I find it hard to explain my new
parenting philosophy to them. I just don't know where to start.
Whenever I try I
get the feeling they think I'm *spoiling* my sons.***

Ugh.

I've never been a perfectionist but when my son was born I wanted so much
to do everything perfectly. When someone even looked like they were
about to criticize my mothering I was devastated.

I don't know why it mattered what anyone else thought. The only person
my mothering needed to impress was my son!<g>

***He told me he wanted to DRIVE. ***

OH! <g>

I wonder if there's some out of the way place you can go and let him sit
on your lap and steer? A dark parking lot at midnight? <g> Maybe check
what the fine is for unrestrained, speeding toddlers first, to see if you
could pay it.<g>

Dylan used to sit on his dad's lap and steer the truck if we had to go to
the dump, or sometimes on the way to a picnic. Now, I know there are
moms right now gasping at the irresponsibility, never mind the safety
issues, but it seemed less dangerous than strapping him into a car going
(at that time no speed limit in Montana) eighty miles an hour on an
Interstate with other cars going that fast or faster.
I've recently taken Dylan out on the back roads to let him drive. He's
twelve now. He can't legally drive in Montana until he's fifteen.

***easier to smile about it today. I want to be able to smile about it
when it happens. ***

If we only knew in the heat of the moment what we know when it's all
over. You will smile about it. He won't always be three and you won't
always be in the middle of an emerging new parenting philosophy and you
won't always care what your folks think. It all gets easier.

Deb Lewis

Naturally Organic

Cheryl, here is a simple formula that works for almost anything - even with small children.

Observation

Feelings

Needs

Request

When I am yelled at, I feel sad/angry/frustrated. I need a quiet voice when I am spoken to. Would you be willing to use a quiet voice?

It's ok to stop everything and hold them, milk be damned. Or perhaps offering an alternate solution: I would love to hold you, but I must get this milk in the frig. Can I hold you on the couch when we get home? 3 is a very hard age. I'd just as soon find my 3 yo climbing the pantry, trying to sit on his baby sister, or jumping off the top bunk. I find helpful (for any age, really) the Ames & Ilg books. It helps give a handle on what they're doing developmentally, and while it doesn't solve anything for me, it does help give insight. I feel your frustration. I hope today is a better day!

Tanya
*The above formula is from Non-Violent Communication, by Marshall Rosenberg. On the top of my recommended list for gentle parenting.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Valerie

Deb that was truly beautiful. :-)

--- In [email protected], Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@j...>
wrote:
> ***When I took him to the car he told me that he wanted to sit on
my
> lap.***
>
> You made groceries more important than your baby. That sounds
harsh but
> I hope you can think about this in a new way.
>
> He needed you. For some reason he needed to sit on your lap and
be close
> to you. Maybe he had a hard time at your moms. Maybe he was
longing for
> you. Maybe he needed some close time to transition from the
activity at
> your mom's house to going home. He needed you and you decided
milk was
> more important than what he needed.
>
> What if you'd held him? What if he was happy after ten minutes.
The
> milk would have been ok. What if he wanted you to hold him for
forty
> minutes? The milk might have still been ok, but what if it
wasn't?
>
> What if you had to go by more milk? The price of milk is not
greater
> than your sons comfort and happiness.
> Surely you've "wasted" a few dollars on something that would
brighten
> your day, a new lipstick or nail polish or something. Your son
needed a
> moment of brightness with you.
>
> If your other son was with you maybe he could have run the
perishables in
> to your moms fridge until you were ready to go.
>
> ***I told him that when he hurt my feelings like that it made me
not want
> to buy him something. ***
>
> And when you hurt his feelings by not being available to him he
didn't
> know what to do. He reacted like a three year old who didn't
really know
> how to tell his mom he needed some closeness and comfort.
>
> ***How should I handle these outbursts of anger. This is a new
thing for
> him in the last couple
> of months.***
>
> Try to be as understanding as you can. Try to think about what
led to
> him feeling so angry and frustrated. We all get angry and almost
no one
> gets angry for no reason. See if you can identify the things that
lead
> to his frustration and head them off. Listen to him. He's trying
so
> hard to communicate with you! He's only had a few years on this
planet,
> speaking this language and trying to understand how things work.
He
> needs your help when things aren't going right.
>
> It is hard to be little and to want to do things a little body or
little
> hands just aren't able to do yet. It's hard to not be able to
express
> yourself in terms other people clearly understand and respect.
>
> Maybe he's tired and needs some quiet time in the rocking chair
with you.
> Maybe he's out of energy and needs a snack. He might not
recognize the
> symptoms of those things and so, can't express that to you.
> Maybe he wants some sympathy when things are going wrong.
>
> Cheryl, it's hard being a mom and especially a mom who's trying so
hard
> to get everything right. If you can remember he isn't trying to
hurt
> your feelings or make your life harder, he's just trying to
communicate
> some need or problem he has and he doesn't have all the skills to
do that
> yet. If you can think about that it will help you be more patient
with
> him. He wants to be happy and he wants you to be happy with him.
Our
> society portrays kids as working against their parents and it just
isn't
> so. I think in so many ways parents are conditioned to think of
their
> kids as adversaries. You don't have to. You can think of him as
someone
> who loves you and needs you alot right now. Someone who wants to
be
> happy and feel good about himself and his mom. If you think of the
> situation as both of you having the same goal you can work with
him to
> find solutions instead of feeling like your working against him.
>
> Deb Lewis

Dana Matt

Wow, Cheryl...
When I read this I hear you saying your feelings are
hurt because he said shut up to you, but wow, think of
his feelings after having you man-handle and
physically force his little body into doing something
he didn't want to do, and then ignoring him while
driving for 5 minutes after you tied him up, and then
threatening to not feed him..... If what *he* did is
a "tantrum".... What is what *you* did?

Just askin'.....
Dana
in Montana

--- Cheryl Morkan <Luckiebyrd@...> wrote:
> I guess I got so wrapped up remembering those times
> I forgot to ask
> my question. So here we go.
>
> I've been reading sstuff about mindful parenting and
> have never been
> a spanker. But recently my 3.5 year old has become
> a real
> challange. If something doesn't happen the way he
> wants it to he has
> full blown tantrums. Now I have seen this in other
> children, but
> never in mine. And do try to let him do the things
> he wants to do,
> but here is an example of a time when he just can't
> do what he
> wants.
>
> Last night Joel spent some time with my mom and my
> nephew who is also
> 3.5. On the way to pick him up I bought milk and
> some other
> groceries that needed to get in the fridge before
> they spoiled. When
> I took him to the car he told me that he wanted to
> sit on my lap. I
> explained that he needed to be in his carseat in
> order to be safe and
> so that we wouldn't get a ticket from the policeman.
> He told me to
> put the carseat in the driver's seat. Well, I tried
> to tell him that
> that wouldn't work as I put him in his deat in the
> back. He started
> to sruggle and fight. He stiffened his body out
> straight so that I
> couldn't put the straps on him, but I managed to get
> him in and
> everything fastened. Then he started screaming at
> me *Mom, shut up.
> Mom, shut up.* Over and over again he screamed,
> with my bewildered
> parents watching from the driveway. I ignored him
> and backed out of
> the driveway with him screaming the whole way.
> About five minutes
> into the drive he told me that I wasn't his Mom
> anymore. At that
> point my head was pounding. I pulled the car over,
> got out, opened
> his door and got very close to his face. I told him
> that he could
> not continue to talk to me that way, that he hurt my
> feelings, and
> then I did a bad thing. I told him that I was
> taking his brother to
> McDonalds and that I didn't want to buy anything for
> him. That
> seemed to get his attention, he wanted something,
> too. Now I never
> intended to leave him out, but I told him that when
> he hurt my
> feelings like that it made me not want to buy him
> something. Please
> understand that he had already eaten dinner at my
> Mom's, I would
> never withhold food as a punishment. But at least
> he stopped
> screaming. I got back in the driver's seat and we
> had a discussion
> about not telling each other to shut up because it
> is a mean thing to
> say. My eleven year old was involved in this and
> told me that he
> understood now why I didn't like it when he said
> this to his little
> brother. He even apoligized to Little bro for
> having said it to him
> in the past and made a pact to stop.
>
> This was one outburst of anger, but they happen
> several times a day.
> They usually consist of Joel growling and saying,
> *I'm so ANGRY with
> you* over and over again. And while I'm glad he can
> put his feelings
> into words, it still feels violent. How should I
> handle these
> outbursts of anger. This is a new thing for him in
> the last couple
> of months. Is this just a stage? Any help or advice
> will be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Cheryl
>
>
>
>
>
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Robyn Coburn

<<I've been reading sstuff about mindful parenting and have never been
a spanker. But recently my 3.5 year old has become a real
challange. If something doesn't happen the way he wants it to he has
full blown tantrums. Now I have seen this in other children, but
never in mine. And do try to let him do the things he wants to do,
but here is an example of a time when he just can't do what he
wants.>>

Jayn is 4.5. Here's what I do (and have done for a long time) when it is
genuinely important that she do as I have asked her to - like ride in her
car seat, although we have never had that specific problem. I wait. Very
quietly and let her say "no" as many times as she needs to. Sometimes I
validate her feelings - "you sure don't want to ...." and I say "Let me know
when you are ready".

After a few minutes, that can actually *seem* very long to me, she will take
a deep breath and say, "OK I guess I can ...." Then she cheerfully, or even
giggling, does whatever it was. I always remember to thank her and give her
a hug.

Learning to wait as long as needed was hard, and I'm sure with a witness the
pause would be even harder. Like playing Chutes and Ladders or deschooling -
if you say anything to hurry the process - back you go to the beginning.
Getting dh not to interfere or try to jolly her along has been the biggest
hurdle!

<<<He told me to put the carseat in the driver's seat.>>

You've got to admit that is pretty ingenious! When Jayn wants to "drive", I
let her sit in the driver's seat with the car off and I sit next to her and
she makes all the noises. If you did that in your situation the other little
boy would probably need a turn too! Sometimes following Jayn's lead with the
little fantasy can be a great way to defuse the incipient meltdown (a word I
prefer to "tantrum" which is so negative) EG: Wow we could but what about
your feet? And where would I sit? Maybe we should put the car seat on the
roof. What about that idea?

<<<Then he started screaming at me *Mom, shut up.
Mom, shut up.* Over and over again he screamed, with my bewildered
parents watching from the driveway. I ignored him and backed out of
the driveway with him screaming the whole way. About five minutes
into the drive he told me that I wasn't his Mom anymore.>>>

In the spirit of finding something good in this - be joyful that he knew he
could say this and you *would* still be his Mom. He could say something this
powerful and unpleasant secure in the knowledge that you still love him.
Sometimes Jayn is frustrated to the point of saying something like this. I
usually let it pass, because I am trying to get back to the source of the
upset, and this is just like noise or detritus. If you react to it, then it
becomes scary - for the child I mean. There are children in this world who
are afraid of their parents - they wouldn't ever say this in case it came
true in some way.

<<<I pulled the car over, got out, opened
his door and got very close to his face. I told him that he could
not continue to talk to me that way, that he hurt my feelings, and
then I did a bad thing.>>>

Sometimes Jayn gets in my face and will scream - one good loud shriek is
generally enough to let out her tension. I always feel bad that I let her
frustration with me get to that point. However it is very unpleasant to have
someone right in your face like that. Sometimes my dh has done it to me - it
is extremely intimidating. I have said sternly to Jayn, "You may not scream
at me" but I DON'T recommend that at all, and it is usually because *I* have
lost my temper momentarily. It just makes her feel worse also. I try to hug
her instead at those moments. If screaming in the car is making it hard to
drive, I have pulled over - when I usually just wait quietly, similarly to
above, until the storm has passed.

<<<I got back in the driver's seat and we had a discussion
about not telling each other to shut up because it is a mean thing to
say. My eleven year old was involved in this and told me that he
understood now why I didn't like it when he said this to his little
brother. He even apoligized to Little bro for having said it to him
in the past and made a pact to stop.>>>

This sounds really sweet, although I hope your 11yo doesn't feel bad if he
accidentally breaks the pact in the heat of some moment. I usually wait a
little while to talk about hurt feelings. Sometimes Jayn will suddenly say,
"Are you sorry you hurt my feelings?" and we have to dig around to find out
when it happened. Usually we apologize to each other shortly after whatever
blow up occurred. It seems to give her a great sense of power and esteem to
have me apologize to her.

<<How should I handle these
outbursts of anger. This is a new thing for him in the last couple
of months. Is this just a stage?>>

I think it can be coming from a developmental stage, but it is still real in
the moment. I mean dismissing his anger as *merely* a stage, especially to
him or in his hearing, could make the stage last a lifetime. OTOH,
remembering that it will pass and he will learn to become more reasonable
(from an adult POV) may help you to keep calm and take deep breaths. My main
suggestion is not to take it personally, but yes to look for your
responsibility in causing the upset. Are you putting his needs aside for
household duties, or email checking (my usual bad)? Are you not noticing
quickly enough when he needs some extra moments? Is there some other kind of
broader change or upheaval going on in his life that is making him feel
powerless? You mention that your Mom is "now" caring for your nephew -
perhaps that is one of the life changes that is causing imbalance for a
while.

There are some lovely essays at www.naturalchild.org including one entitled
something like "Helping children heal from emotional hurts" that is just
wonderful - talks about the power of silent listening. The whole site is
wonderful - and it has short readable chunks that are more digestible for
the uninitiated than being given a whole book to read at first. Book
recommendations are there also of course.

Robyn L. Coburn

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Deb Lewis

*** If what *he* did is a "tantrum".... What is what *you* did?***

It can be really powerful to look at a situation from a childs
perspective. It's humbling to think about how small and powerless they
are. It always helped me to be calm when I thought about what I looked
and sounded like from Dylan's point of view.

Deb Lewis

Helen Hegener

At 8:30 AM -0600 6/9/04, Deb Lewis wrote:
> He wants to be happy and he wants you to be happy with him. Our
>society portrays kids as working against their parents and it just isn't
>so. I think in so many ways parents are conditioned to think of their
>kids as adversaries. You don't have to. You can think of him as someone
>who loves you and needs you alot right now. Someone who wants to be
>happy and feel good about himself and his mom. If you think of the
>situation as both of you having the same goal you can work with him to
>find solutions instead of feeling like your working against him.

I'm just catching up with this list again tonight, and I'm mostly
just reading along, but what Deb wrote here was so wise, and so
wonderfully worded, that I just wanted to say thank you for taking
the time to write it. Sometimes it seems like this electronic form of
communication is so fleeting and temporary; I often read through
upwards of 1,200 to 1,500 posts a day on all the various lists,
newsletters, business emailings and whatnot, and the majority are
just skimmed and deleted without a second thought. But every once in
a while a post just catches my attention and makes me stop and think
about why we do this, what it's really all about, and why it's
important to share thoughts and ideas and experiences with those who
come seeking and asking questions. Sometimes a post or a paragraph
just stands out, head and shoulders above the others, and for me this
post was one of those. Thanks Deb.

Helen