pros-cons
cartoontv5
Pam,
Thanks for your interest.My point was that my husband spent very
little time at school.But-he did learn auto mechanics from his father
and has a career doing that(he never did get his h/s diploma)which is
good!
I know the school system let him down as it does many but what do
you do when your child wants to go to college and can hardly spell or
things like that because he never cared to learn?
Jeanne
Thanks for your interest.My point was that my husband spent very
little time at school.But-he did learn auto mechanics from his father
and has a career doing that(he never did get his h/s diploma)which is
good!
I know the school system let him down as it does many but what do
you do when your child wants to go to college and can hardly spell or
things like that because he never cared to learn?
Jeanne
pam sorooshian
On Dec 31, 2004, at 5:55 PM, cartoontv5 wrote:
Kids who go to school are so turned off to learning that it is actually
POSSIBLE to think they might never care to learn things that are
important for them to achieve the things they want to achieve.
That is hard to even imagine - for unschoolers.
I now have THREE kids going to college. Yep - number 3 just signed up
for her first two college courses - a beginning voice class and a
musical theater techniques class. My oldest is starting at the
university - as a junior and my second is continuing at the community
college - this is her 4th year taking courses there. All are "A"
students. They have not done any school work - no assignments, no
tests, no grades, no essays, no worksheets, no textbooks --- absolutely
nothing like that.
My goal has been to nurture their love of learning - not worrying much
about what they were learning, just that the interests they had were
supported and that I filled their lives with opportunities to satisfy
their natural desire to expand their knowledge base.
They've learned. Not exactly what the schools claim they "should" learn
- much more and much less. More about the things they're interested in
and a lot less than what you'd see on the lists of school standards.
But, not even the top students in school really learn all that stuff -
they just memorize and spit it out on tests and forget it. What bits
stay stuck in their heads are useless fragments - not helpful in really
being able to THINK about things.
-pam
> I know the school system let him down as it does many but what doAha - I see your point <G>.
> you do when your child wants to go to college and can hardly spell or
> things like that because he never cared to learn?
Kids who go to school are so turned off to learning that it is actually
POSSIBLE to think they might never care to learn things that are
important for them to achieve the things they want to achieve.
That is hard to even imagine - for unschoolers.
I now have THREE kids going to college. Yep - number 3 just signed up
for her first two college courses - a beginning voice class and a
musical theater techniques class. My oldest is starting at the
university - as a junior and my second is continuing at the community
college - this is her 4th year taking courses there. All are "A"
students. They have not done any school work - no assignments, no
tests, no grades, no essays, no worksheets, no textbooks --- absolutely
nothing like that.
My goal has been to nurture their love of learning - not worrying much
about what they were learning, just that the interests they had were
supported and that I filled their lives with opportunities to satisfy
their natural desire to expand their knowledge base.
They've learned. Not exactly what the schools claim they "should" learn
- much more and much less. More about the things they're interested in
and a lot less than what you'd see on the lists of school standards.
But, not even the top students in school really learn all that stuff -
they just memorize and spit it out on tests and forget it. What bits
stay stuck in their heads are useless fragments - not helpful in really
being able to THINK about things.
-pam
Ren Allen
"I know the school system let him down as it does many but what do
you do when your child wants to go to college and can hardly spell or
things like that because he never cared to learn?"
You seem really worried about the future Jeanne....some of that is
normal parent stuff, but a lot of it is school fears seeping in.
Who says they need college?
If the child chooses college, who says they need to be great
spellers? Lots of people never become great spellers, luckily not
everyone needs to be in order to succeed!
A child that really WANTS college, will practice the things they
need in order to embrace that part of their journey, or they'll
decide that college is not their cuppa.
How do you think forced lessons turn someone into great spellers? At
what cost do they become great spellers?
I wouldn't trade curiosity, joy or love of learning for good
spelling....neither will prospective employers!! Unless they're
going to be editors or something...:)
If the child never cared to learn spelling (which is picked up very
naturally as a person reads, ask questions and such...just like math
and everything else in the whole wide world) and find a need for it,
they'll learn it. Or they won't. Why spend one second today, worried
about a future that probably won't happen anyway?
My bil isn't a very good speller. He makes over $100k per year, so
it certainly hasn't affected his income potential. On the other
hand, he has a lot of fear about leaving a high paying job to do
something he really LOVES, I consider that a much bigger deficit.
Ren
you do when your child wants to go to college and can hardly spell or
things like that because he never cared to learn?"
You seem really worried about the future Jeanne....some of that is
normal parent stuff, but a lot of it is school fears seeping in.
Who says they need college?
If the child chooses college, who says they need to be great
spellers? Lots of people never become great spellers, luckily not
everyone needs to be in order to succeed!
A child that really WANTS college, will practice the things they
need in order to embrace that part of their journey, or they'll
decide that college is not their cuppa.
How do you think forced lessons turn someone into great spellers? At
what cost do they become great spellers?
I wouldn't trade curiosity, joy or love of learning for good
spelling....neither will prospective employers!! Unless they're
going to be editors or something...:)
If the child never cared to learn spelling (which is picked up very
naturally as a person reads, ask questions and such...just like math
and everything else in the whole wide world) and find a need for it,
they'll learn it. Or they won't. Why spend one second today, worried
about a future that probably won't happen anyway?
My bil isn't a very good speller. He makes over $100k per year, so
it certainly hasn't affected his income potential. On the other
hand, he has a lot of fear about leaving a high paying job to do
something he really LOVES, I consider that a much bigger deficit.
Ren
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/2/2005 6:52:58 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
LJeanne28@... writes:
I know the school system let him down as it does many but what do
you do when your child wants to go to college and can hardly spell or
things like that because he never cared to learn?<<<<<
OK----Where in the world did you hear that there was ever an unschooling
child who wants to go to college but can't hardly spell because he never cared
to learn?? How in the world can you be interested in unschooling---even
fleetingly---and think a child won't want to learn?
Tenet ONE of unschooling: Humans are hard-wired to learn. We CRAVE
learning.We NEED to learn. It's part of our make-up.That's how we invented spaceships
and bulldozers and cameras and the cotton gin and pencils and LANGUAGE! We
need to know more about our environment and how things work and how to make
them work better. How to communicate and get places faster and heal ourselves.
This is what we DO.
A child who wants to go to college will prepare himself to go. If he wants
to learn to spell better, he will. If he wants to build skyscrapers or be a
horse whisperer, he'll do what's needed to reach that goal. It's what we DO.
What are your passions? What do you love to do most? How did you learn it?
Why? Who helped you learn it? What could have stopped you from learning it?
Our goal in unschooling is to have children who LOVE TO LEARN. Who can find
the answers to their questions.Who think of themselves as
life-learners/doers/experimenters/ Who have happy, rich, fulfilled lives. Who know they are
capable.
The goal is not a good college and a well-paying job (although both are
quite possible and quite common). But neither of those is a guarantee of anything.
That "never cared to learn" statement is the one that's bugging me most. I
can't seem to get it out of my head.
I watched bright, eager children go into school at four years old as
sponges----THRILLED to be at school. I watched them year after year after year get
more and more disillusioned. Many eventually learned to hate learning. (I'm
not the only one to have seen this; ask around. YOU seem like one of these
kids!) My child, at 12 was almost completely turned off to learning. He healed.
So can you.
Try to keep your child from walking. Talking. Asking questions. Try it. You
*can* do it! Schools do it all the time. It's their specialty. But put that
same child in a rich environment where he can explore and ask questions---where
he's ENCOURAGED to learn. He won't be able to help it. He's hard-wired that
way.
You need to do some more reading about unschooling. Hell, no you don't! You
NEED to look at your child! He's the expert! Just look at HIM!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
LJeanne28@... writes:
I know the school system let him down as it does many but what do
you do when your child wants to go to college and can hardly spell or
things like that because he never cared to learn?<<<<<
OK----Where in the world did you hear that there was ever an unschooling
child who wants to go to college but can't hardly spell because he never cared
to learn?? How in the world can you be interested in unschooling---even
fleetingly---and think a child won't want to learn?
Tenet ONE of unschooling: Humans are hard-wired to learn. We CRAVE
learning.We NEED to learn. It's part of our make-up.That's how we invented spaceships
and bulldozers and cameras and the cotton gin and pencils and LANGUAGE! We
need to know more about our environment and how things work and how to make
them work better. How to communicate and get places faster and heal ourselves.
This is what we DO.
A child who wants to go to college will prepare himself to go. If he wants
to learn to spell better, he will. If he wants to build skyscrapers or be a
horse whisperer, he'll do what's needed to reach that goal. It's what we DO.
What are your passions? What do you love to do most? How did you learn it?
Why? Who helped you learn it? What could have stopped you from learning it?
Our goal in unschooling is to have children who LOVE TO LEARN. Who can find
the answers to their questions.Who think of themselves as
life-learners/doers/experimenters/ Who have happy, rich, fulfilled lives. Who know they are
capable.
The goal is not a good college and a well-paying job (although both are
quite possible and quite common). But neither of those is a guarantee of anything.
That "never cared to learn" statement is the one that's bugging me most. I
can't seem to get it out of my head.
I watched bright, eager children go into school at four years old as
sponges----THRILLED to be at school. I watched them year after year after year get
more and more disillusioned. Many eventually learned to hate learning. (I'm
not the only one to have seen this; ask around. YOU seem like one of these
kids!) My child, at 12 was almost completely turned off to learning. He healed.
So can you.
Try to keep your child from walking. Talking. Asking questions. Try it. You
*can* do it! Schools do it all the time. It's their specialty. But put that
same child in a rich environment where he can explore and ask questions---where
he's ENCOURAGED to learn. He won't be able to help it. He's hard-wired that
way.
You need to do some more reading about unschooling. Hell, no you don't! You
NEED to look at your child! He's the expert! Just look at HIM!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
"Try to keep your child from walking. Talking. Asking questions. Try
it. You
*can* do it! Schools do it all the time. It's their specialty. But
put that
same child in a rich environment where he can explore and ask
questions---where
he's ENCOURAGED to learn. He won't be able to help it. He's hard-
wired that
way."
I want to add a caution here....
I think parents new to unschooling sometimes expect a child that is
suddenly given freedom to do all these academic things. All those
unschoolers said that children are hard wired to LEARN afterall!!
But part of unschooling being able to unfold the way we're
describing it (99% of the equation really) is for the parent to SEE
things differently. An unschooling parent really must SEE the
learning in absolutely everything. When spongebob or fairies or
legos or playdough is honored as much as Greece or 5x2 or lifecycles
of butterflies, only then can unschooling really work.
It is we, the parents, that need to change. A child is a PERFECT
unschooler from birth. If we can trust that exploring fairies for
many years (in my case, Jared has been obsessed with Dragons since
he was four years old...he's now 11) is completely worthy, and help
that child explore that interest as much as they wish, learning WILL
happen beautifully.
Heck, Sierra and I learned all about an island in maine, rolling
pins and history just from interest in one little old fairy movie
this last week. Plus, we bought a couple blueberry bushes to plant,
inspired by the movie and a book titled "Blueberry Shoe".
Learning is everywhere Jeanne. YOU just have to see it, your
children already know the way.
Ren
it. You
*can* do it! Schools do it all the time. It's their specialty. But
put that
same child in a rich environment where he can explore and ask
questions---where
he's ENCOURAGED to learn. He won't be able to help it. He's hard-
wired that
way."
I want to add a caution here....
I think parents new to unschooling sometimes expect a child that is
suddenly given freedom to do all these academic things. All those
unschoolers said that children are hard wired to LEARN afterall!!
But part of unschooling being able to unfold the way we're
describing it (99% of the equation really) is for the parent to SEE
things differently. An unschooling parent really must SEE the
learning in absolutely everything. When spongebob or fairies or
legos or playdough is honored as much as Greece or 5x2 or lifecycles
of butterflies, only then can unschooling really work.
It is we, the parents, that need to change. A child is a PERFECT
unschooler from birth. If we can trust that exploring fairies for
many years (in my case, Jared has been obsessed with Dragons since
he was four years old...he's now 11) is completely worthy, and help
that child explore that interest as much as they wish, learning WILL
happen beautifully.
Heck, Sierra and I learned all about an island in maine, rolling
pins and history just from interest in one little old fairy movie
this last week. Plus, we bought a couple blueberry bushes to plant,
inspired by the movie and a book titled "Blueberry Shoe".
Learning is everywhere Jeanne. YOU just have to see it, your
children already know the way.
Ren
mamaaj2000
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:
to to worry about whether she's learning first grade skills while in
first grade. But if you are unschooling, it doesn't matter that some
of those skills were learned at various points between the ages of 4
and 9! Drilling skills might make a parent/teacher feel like learning
is taking place daily, but the reality is different.
I feel so much more relaxed and in tune with my kids as they actually
are these days. I see lots of learning sometimes and not much other
times. Feels right--tho' it took some getting used to!
--aj
<starsuncloud@n...> wrote:
> But part of unschooling being able to unfold the way we'relifecycles
> describing it (99% of the equation really) is for the parent to SEE
> things differently. An unschooling parent really must SEE the
> learning in absolutely everything. When spongebob or fairies or
> legos or playdough is honored as much as Greece or 5x2 or
> of butterflies, only then can unschooling really work.Esp. how we perceive time. If you child is in school, you're likely
>
> It is we, the parents, that need to change.
to to worry about whether she's learning first grade skills while in
first grade. But if you are unschooling, it doesn't matter that some
of those skills were learned at various points between the ages of 4
and 9! Drilling skills might make a parent/teacher feel like learning
is taking place daily, but the reality is different.
I feel so much more relaxed and in tune with my kids as they actually
are these days. I see lots of learning sometimes and not much other
times. Feels right--tho' it took some getting used to!
--aj
Syndi
--- In [email protected], "mamaaj2000"
<mamaaj2000@y...> wrote:
books (was it John Holt?) that when learning is not taking place (or
maybe we aren't seeing it) is when they have, in fact, learned
something and their brains are full and now storing the information
(something to that effect!). Kind of like a desk full of papers, you
can only stack so many on top of one another without stopping to sort
things out and file them, or throw them away if not needed.
slp
<mamaaj2000@y...> wrote:
>This is SO true, and makes even more sense after reading in one of my
>I see lots of learning sometimes and not much other
> times. >
> --aj
books (was it John Holt?) that when learning is not taking place (or
maybe we aren't seeing it) is when they have, in fact, learned
something and their brains are full and now storing the information
(something to that effect!). Kind of like a desk full of papers, you
can only stack so many on top of one another without stopping to sort
things out and file them, or throw them away if not needed.
slp
Daniel MacIntyre
You obviously haven't seen MY desk! :)
On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:38:59 -0000, Syndi <justlikemama@...> wrote:
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "mamaaj2000"
> <mamaaj2000@y...> wrote:
> >
> >I see lots of learning sometimes and not much other
> > times. >
> > --aj
>
> This is SO true, and makes even more sense after reading in one of my
> books (was it John Holt?) that when learning is not taking place (or
> maybe we aren't seeing it) is when they have, in fact, learned
> something and their brains are full and now storing the information
> (something to that effect!). Kind of like a desk full of papers, you
> can only stack so many on top of one another without stopping to sort
> things out and file them, or throw them away if not needed.
> slp
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
soggyboysmom
I see this all the time with DS - but since my desk often resembles
Daniel's (I'm guessing lol) - I prefer to think of it as a buffet.
All the "food" is spread out there waiting for you to pick up a
plate and utensils. You can take whole plates of one thing or sample
bits of several things. You might come back for more of this or that
right away. You may decide that this other is just not for you right
now - or maybe ever. At some point, you'll probably feel full and
lounge back in your seat and relax a bit. Doesn't look like much is
happening compared to the active stuff of choosing and eating. But,
this is the important part - the part where you are digesting what
you ate and it is becoming part of you, nourishing and nurturing
growth. When you are ready, you go back for more - maybe some
familiar items, maybe some new items, probably a mix and maybe now
that you decided fish is not awful, you'll try a new type of fish
and branch out that way or maybe even try sushi and fall in love
with Asian cuisine. The possibilities are endless.
Daniel's (I'm guessing lol) - I prefer to think of it as a buffet.
All the "food" is spread out there waiting for you to pick up a
plate and utensils. You can take whole plates of one thing or sample
bits of several things. You might come back for more of this or that
right away. You may decide that this other is just not for you right
now - or maybe ever. At some point, you'll probably feel full and
lounge back in your seat and relax a bit. Doesn't look like much is
happening compared to the active stuff of choosing and eating. But,
this is the important part - the part where you are digesting what
you ate and it is becoming part of you, nourishing and nurturing
growth. When you are ready, you go back for more - maybe some
familiar items, maybe some new items, probably a mix and maybe now
that you decided fish is not awful, you'll try a new type of fish
and branch out that way or maybe even try sushi and fall in love
with Asian cuisine. The possibilities are endless.
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/12/2005 9:45:01 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I really needed to hear this today!
I just hopped on this list to read(and do my usual lurking - I am new
to the group)but was going to write today about my concerns with my
son (that I just found out happen to be very similar to what you went
through). <<<<
You're welcome, Kim!
I seems I get the most fan mail when I say how tough it was! <G>
*********************************
I often lead a parenting workshop through churches I work at. One of the
most powerful experiences of it is when parents start telling the truth about
how hard it is sometimes. Typically people talk about the successes they have,
so when other parents you really respect say, "Yeah, this has been really
hard for me," it can be liberating.
When we started looking seriously at homeschooling, I got books. One of them
was Nancy Wallace's Better Than School. Great book, really inspirational.
Vita and Ishmael spent hours writing operas, becoming musical prodigies, raising
livestock. They never seemed to argue with each other or their parents. It
sounded really cool.
Now, I admit I have an easy kid. He doesn't have any health issues or
learning disabilities, is easy to get along with, etc. I am VERY aware that this is
just his personality and has nothing to do with my superior parenting skills.
But he's no Ishmael and Vita.
I doubt they are. I'm sure Nancy had days when she wanted them to just leave
the damned violins alone and be quiet.
It does help when we share the hard times as well as the amazing ones.
Because relationships are messy, and sometimes we (and the kids) are just cranky
and obnoxious. Our houses might be messy (well, maybe that's just me) and the
music the kids like is no longer the stuff you like, and that dish has been
under the desk for a week. (Why don't I just pick it up? I don't know. Lazy,
crampy, and cranky.) The really cute kitten keeps biting and it's annoying. And
Beth is a crappy painter and there are drips all over the floor of the
bathroom.
But most of the time I don't care if the house is messy, I'm starting to
like some of Julian's music (although some of it is just truly awful, I am not
their demographic. I've never been a 15 year old boy), someone seems to have
picked up the dish (or it went deeper, and is no longer visible). The kitten is
totally sweet despite the biting, and likes to cuddle. And Beth DID paint
the bathroom, and is looks awesome despite the drips.
Knowing we're not the only ones who sometimes struggle makes it feel less
lonely and scary. It also helps us trust that it'll be okay. If Kelly could have
gome through this, there's hope for all of us.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! I really needed to hear this today!
I just hopped on this list to read(and do my usual lurking - I am new
to the group)but was going to write today about my concerns with my
son (that I just found out happen to be very similar to what you went
through). <<<<
You're welcome, Kim!
I seems I get the most fan mail when I say how tough it was! <G>
*********************************
I often lead a parenting workshop through churches I work at. One of the
most powerful experiences of it is when parents start telling the truth about
how hard it is sometimes. Typically people talk about the successes they have,
so when other parents you really respect say, "Yeah, this has been really
hard for me," it can be liberating.
When we started looking seriously at homeschooling, I got books. One of them
was Nancy Wallace's Better Than School. Great book, really inspirational.
Vita and Ishmael spent hours writing operas, becoming musical prodigies, raising
livestock. They never seemed to argue with each other or their parents. It
sounded really cool.
Now, I admit I have an easy kid. He doesn't have any health issues or
learning disabilities, is easy to get along with, etc. I am VERY aware that this is
just his personality and has nothing to do with my superior parenting skills.
But he's no Ishmael and Vita.
I doubt they are. I'm sure Nancy had days when she wanted them to just leave
the damned violins alone and be quiet.
It does help when we share the hard times as well as the amazing ones.
Because relationships are messy, and sometimes we (and the kids) are just cranky
and obnoxious. Our houses might be messy (well, maybe that's just me) and the
music the kids like is no longer the stuff you like, and that dish has been
under the desk for a week. (Why don't I just pick it up? I don't know. Lazy,
crampy, and cranky.) The really cute kitten keeps biting and it's annoying. And
Beth is a crappy painter and there are drips all over the floor of the
bathroom.
But most of the time I don't care if the house is messy, I'm starting to
like some of Julian's music (although some of it is just truly awful, I am not
their demographic. I've never been a 15 year old boy), someone seems to have
picked up the dish (or it went deeper, and is no longer visible). The kitten is
totally sweet despite the biting, and likes to cuddle. And Beth DID paint
the bathroom, and is looks awesome despite the drips.
Knowing we're not the only ones who sometimes struggle makes it feel less
lonely and scary. It also helps us trust that it'll be okay. If Kelly could have
gome through this, there's hope for all of us.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]