Long addendum to my problems... :)
justmemarie31
Dh is hurting our relationship when he is mean to the kids. I hadn't put it into words, but that is what it feels like.
i really hesitate to criticize him more, as he already feels like I am pretty much taking over the house, and it is me and the kids vs. him.
I wish that conferences worked for us, but so far they haven't. He only saw what he didn't like at the '05 Live and Learn, and at Kalahari last year and this year, he only went for the family vacation aspect, and left the talks to me. He does not agree with there not being a leader in the family. He thinks it is necessary, because it would "just be too chaotic" without one.
Oh, I just thought of something else. he wants to schedule the kids eating. No more snacking at their own will. He wants to have them eat a fuller meal at breakfast, lunch, and dinner, so that they won't "need" to snack. He feels like it creates too much chaos.. The kids use more than one cup a day, and by the end of the day there is an excess of dishes to wash. One mom I heard of with 8 kids made it a craft for each kid to make their own ceramic dishes with their names on them, and each kid just used their dishes for the day. That would probably be a good compromise for us, and my version of it would be to ask the kids how they want to do it. Maybe we could go to a thrift store and let them pick out what they want to be theirs... But the general feel of this, is that he wants to run our family like it's the military or something... everything in order, a tight ship! He prides himself on it! Once I was n't home for over a week, and he had the kids all doing chores, and the house spotless, and it didn't matter to him that the kids complained... he thought that was how it "should" be. Kids "need to be taught responsibility."
Oh yeah, and more on the food thing. He will make dinner (or even if I'm making it), and if the kids say they aren't hungry, or don't want what I made (or he made), he flips out and says, "I just spent an hour (or however long) making this for you guys because I want you to have good nutrition, and you don't even want to eat it?!" He is just so offended and outraged, and can't hide it very well. (I do have to add that I am guilty of doing the same thing at times, when I'm not feeling very giving.)
He feels that we are not doing our parental duty "making sure" that the kids eat well. My idea of making sure would be providing nutritous tasty snacks, talking about nutrition,etc.. but his idea of it is to "manage" I read control.. what they eat.
Also, he feels like I am setting him up as the bad guy with my parenting. He feels that we "must be unified", or it won't be good for the kids. If I tell him that I see the kids point of view, when they are disagreeing, he feels completely betrayed. He thinks that I am going to turn them against him. He feels he is only doing what a dad is supposed to, and I am making it look like he doesn't like them by telling them that they don't "have" to do things they don't want to.
I have tried to compromise with him by telling him that if he tells them to clean (or whatever), and they come to me and say "Dad is forcing me to do such and such", then I will tell them to go talk it out with him.
He hates it when it looks like I am "protecting" them from him.
Today I left for 3 hours or so. I recharged. It did me worlds of good. I was able to try to help the kids and him communicate without getting in a fight with him or them feeling *too* controlled. He feels like I am just taking over the family, and what he thinks is right for him to act like is just thrown out. He actually stops parenting and just leaves the room if I am there, and the kids don't "listen" to him. Like tonight when I came home he was in the living room watching tv with the kids. He said to them, "Guys, could you turn the tv down, it's too loud." They said, "No! we can't hear it!" He said, "Well, you've been watching tv for hours, why don't you turn it off for half an hour and take a break, then finish with the shows you've been looking forward to all day. (note: we only have basic cable with no dvr or tivo). They said, "No! we want to finish watching SNL, and then the other shows."
AT this point he just got up and left the room, saying, "fine. I'll just go upstairs by myself." He said this to me, and I followed him upstairs offering to do something with him, but he was too upset that he doesn't have the authority to just tell them that the tv is going off for half an hour because he wants to hang out with them. He feels powerless. I asked him, why don't you tell them that you want to spend time with them. Or ask them to just turn it down so it doesn't hurt your ears, so you can be in the same room as them because you want to be.
His response was, "I already asked them to turn it down, and they said NO. And I don't care if they want to watch tv all night anyway." That last part was said in an offfended, "whatever" kind of tone.
I said, "well, I think you aren't being honest with me. I think you do care, and that's why you sound offended." so the conversation continued, and we ended up downstairs, the kids turned down the volume for us, and he was somewhat mollified. But he still feels that I have taken away his parenting authority that he is supposed to have.
I have been able to begin to do things to fill his emotional love tank, and I feel that this is a big part of the puzzle. I've also come to the point where I feel that my needs matter enough to tell him and the kids that I am going to need some alone time a couple of times a week to recharge. Before, I felt guilty for that, and it messed everyone up because I was sending mixed signals, and I ended up resentful.
Whew! That was a lot! But it feels great to "talk" and be heard.
i really hesitate to criticize him more, as he already feels like I am pretty much taking over the house, and it is me and the kids vs. him.
I wish that conferences worked for us, but so far they haven't. He only saw what he didn't like at the '05 Live and Learn, and at Kalahari last year and this year, he only went for the family vacation aspect, and left the talks to me. He does not agree with there not being a leader in the family. He thinks it is necessary, because it would "just be too chaotic" without one.
Oh, I just thought of something else. he wants to schedule the kids eating. No more snacking at their own will. He wants to have them eat a fuller meal at breakfast, lunch, and dinner, so that they won't "need" to snack. He feels like it creates too much chaos.. The kids use more than one cup a day, and by the end of the day there is an excess of dishes to wash. One mom I heard of with 8 kids made it a craft for each kid to make their own ceramic dishes with their names on them, and each kid just used their dishes for the day. That would probably be a good compromise for us, and my version of it would be to ask the kids how they want to do it. Maybe we could go to a thrift store and let them pick out what they want to be theirs... But the general feel of this, is that he wants to run our family like it's the military or something... everything in order, a tight ship! He prides himself on it! Once I was n't home for over a week, and he had the kids all doing chores, and the house spotless, and it didn't matter to him that the kids complained... he thought that was how it "should" be. Kids "need to be taught responsibility."
Oh yeah, and more on the food thing. He will make dinner (or even if I'm making it), and if the kids say they aren't hungry, or don't want what I made (or he made), he flips out and says, "I just spent an hour (or however long) making this for you guys because I want you to have good nutrition, and you don't even want to eat it?!" He is just so offended and outraged, and can't hide it very well. (I do have to add that I am guilty of doing the same thing at times, when I'm not feeling very giving.)
He feels that we are not doing our parental duty "making sure" that the kids eat well. My idea of making sure would be providing nutritous tasty snacks, talking about nutrition,etc.. but his idea of it is to "manage" I read control.. what they eat.
Also, he feels like I am setting him up as the bad guy with my parenting. He feels that we "must be unified", or it won't be good for the kids. If I tell him that I see the kids point of view, when they are disagreeing, he feels completely betrayed. He thinks that I am going to turn them against him. He feels he is only doing what a dad is supposed to, and I am making it look like he doesn't like them by telling them that they don't "have" to do things they don't want to.
I have tried to compromise with him by telling him that if he tells them to clean (or whatever), and they come to me and say "Dad is forcing me to do such and such", then I will tell them to go talk it out with him.
He hates it when it looks like I am "protecting" them from him.
Today I left for 3 hours or so. I recharged. It did me worlds of good. I was able to try to help the kids and him communicate without getting in a fight with him or them feeling *too* controlled. He feels like I am just taking over the family, and what he thinks is right for him to act like is just thrown out. He actually stops parenting and just leaves the room if I am there, and the kids don't "listen" to him. Like tonight when I came home he was in the living room watching tv with the kids. He said to them, "Guys, could you turn the tv down, it's too loud." They said, "No! we can't hear it!" He said, "Well, you've been watching tv for hours, why don't you turn it off for half an hour and take a break, then finish with the shows you've been looking forward to all day. (note: we only have basic cable with no dvr or tivo). They said, "No! we want to finish watching SNL, and then the other shows."
AT this point he just got up and left the room, saying, "fine. I'll just go upstairs by myself." He said this to me, and I followed him upstairs offering to do something with him, but he was too upset that he doesn't have the authority to just tell them that the tv is going off for half an hour because he wants to hang out with them. He feels powerless. I asked him, why don't you tell them that you want to spend time with them. Or ask them to just turn it down so it doesn't hurt your ears, so you can be in the same room as them because you want to be.
His response was, "I already asked them to turn it down, and they said NO. And I don't care if they want to watch tv all night anyway." That last part was said in an offfended, "whatever" kind of tone.
I said, "well, I think you aren't being honest with me. I think you do care, and that's why you sound offended." so the conversation continued, and we ended up downstairs, the kids turned down the volume for us, and he was somewhat mollified. But he still feels that I have taken away his parenting authority that he is supposed to have.
I have been able to begin to do things to fill his emotional love tank, and I feel that this is a big part of the puzzle. I've also come to the point where I feel that my needs matter enough to tell him and the kids that I am going to need some alone time a couple of times a week to recharge. Before, I felt guilty for that, and it messed everyone up because I was sending mixed signals, and I ended up resentful.
Whew! That was a lot! But it feels great to "talk" and be heard.
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "justmemarie31" <michellemschooling@...> wrote:
Well, in a sense that's true. He expected to be The Dad and you've robbed him of that. He didn't get to pick. That's his perspective on the matter. Some of his need to be The Dad might be filled by showing plenty of appreciation for what he does outside the home and, as you mentioned elsewhere in the post, keeping his "love tank" full. It can also help to have some compassion - in a way, you've taken away one of his dreams. That's bound to make anyone unhappy. Listen to his woes compassionately. Don't argue, and don't worry about coming up with solutions in the moment. Be caring and kind. Often that alone will work wonders - we heap so much caring and kindness on our kids, dads need some of that too. It does a lot to help them "get" unschooling on the gut level.
You mentioned chaos a few times. It sounds like he values order and/or predictability. Look for some ways to bring more of those to his life. Unschooling doesn't mean that one family member's needs are totally disregarded for the sake of the rest of the family. If you had a child who needed predictability and routine to feel secure, you'd try to do that, wouldn't you? So find a way to do it for dad. He's as much a member of the family, with needs and feelings as important as any other (and so are You!).
This is a really valuable observation! If your dh isn't feeling valued, then its likely he doesn't feel "giving" very often. That's natural.
Its also good to think about some of your less-than-stellar parenting moments when your dh is having a meltdown. He doesn't get as much practice as you do - so its going to take longer for him to learn any new skills. Its going to take longer and more for him to see any Reason to learn new skills, too - he doesn't have the luxury of being around the kids all day (I assume). Plus, if order is important to him, he's not going to see a value in your parenting ideals if he doesn't see some of that order as a result - why should he do it your way? Its obviously wrong, from his perspective.
It might be helpful to think about what are your own guiding principles (or core values). Think about those in relation to your dh's needs and wants and wishes. Is there some common ground? I suspect absolute mayhem isn't one of your principles ;)
Here's an example - what principles are you trying to support, here? Peacefulness? Personal power? If dh is seeing chaos and a loss of authority, he isn't feeling either of those things. Helping him feel important and supported in his need for order can help there, too.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>But he still feels that I have taken away his parenting authority that he is supposed to have.***************************
Well, in a sense that's true. He expected to be The Dad and you've robbed him of that. He didn't get to pick. That's his perspective on the matter. Some of his need to be The Dad might be filled by showing plenty of appreciation for what he does outside the home and, as you mentioned elsewhere in the post, keeping his "love tank" full. It can also help to have some compassion - in a way, you've taken away one of his dreams. That's bound to make anyone unhappy. Listen to his woes compassionately. Don't argue, and don't worry about coming up with solutions in the moment. Be caring and kind. Often that alone will work wonders - we heap so much caring and kindness on our kids, dads need some of that too. It does a lot to help them "get" unschooling on the gut level.
>>He does not agree with there not being a leader in the family. He thinks it is necessary, because it would "just be too chaotic" without one.**********************
You mentioned chaos a few times. It sounds like he values order and/or predictability. Look for some ways to bring more of those to his life. Unschooling doesn't mean that one family member's needs are totally disregarded for the sake of the rest of the family. If you had a child who needed predictability and routine to feel secure, you'd try to do that, wouldn't you? So find a way to do it for dad. He's as much a member of the family, with needs and feelings as important as any other (and so are You!).
>>(I do have to add that I am guilty of doing the same thing at times, when I'm not feeling very giving.)*************************
This is a really valuable observation! If your dh isn't feeling valued, then its likely he doesn't feel "giving" very often. That's natural.
Its also good to think about some of your less-than-stellar parenting moments when your dh is having a meltdown. He doesn't get as much practice as you do - so its going to take longer for him to learn any new skills. Its going to take longer and more for him to see any Reason to learn new skills, too - he doesn't have the luxury of being around the kids all day (I assume). Plus, if order is important to him, he's not going to see a value in your parenting ideals if he doesn't see some of that order as a result - why should he do it your way? Its obviously wrong, from his perspective.
It might be helpful to think about what are your own guiding principles (or core values). Think about those in relation to your dh's needs and wants and wishes. Is there some common ground? I suspect absolute mayhem isn't one of your principles ;)
>>I was able to try to help the kids and him communicate without getting in a fight with him or them feeling *too* controlled.********************
Here's an example - what principles are you trying to support, here? Peacefulness? Personal power? If dh is seeing chaos and a loss of authority, he isn't feeling either of those things. Helping him feel important and supported in his need for order can help there, too.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
justmemarie31
Meredith, you always have a balanced point of view, thank you.
I do *try* to help him get his needs met, and I do believe that we have similar values in some areas. Peacefulness would certainly be one. Personal power, I'm not sure of. I think he wants personal power, but only wants the kids to make decisions in areas that *he* feels good about... Hmmm... as I write that, I realize that that annoys me, because, usually I think they should have more freedom in the areas he gets upset with.. like food, or bedtimes...
Yet, when we both agree that we "must make the decision to protect them", such as when we decided to keep them away from powerfully polluting religious ideas.. *then* I don't get mad at him. so, I guess I'm not being consistent with my ideas.
He is more into promoting responsibility through chores, I think, than about the cleanliness. I believe that even if I keep it reasonably clean, he still feels that I am damaging them by not making them have chores. He brings this up when discussing things like curriculum.
When I tell him that I don' want to make them do schoolwork, he tells me that he feels like I am running out all his feelings/thoughts on parenthood, and brings up that he tries to tolerate the kids not having chores, but he REALLY wants them to have a curriculum so they will be exposed to all the ideas other kids thier ages are, and so that they will stay on grade level.
I know that we are coming at this from completely different points of view, and I get so stuck. I can't seem to find a common ground point when we both have different theories about children. He believes that unschooling them will lead to them being irresponsible and lazy, and resentful of us for never "teaching" them.
I guess he may be right when it somes down to it. At a base level, I am still a black/white type person, and I feel like I will be "messing up" as a parent by "forcing" the kids to do housework or schoolwork (especially on a routine, and therefore, I resist any of his thoughts on this. Maybe his gut feeling that I want "my way or no way" is right. I recognize this as black/white thinking because when I feel him resisting me, my first reaction is to just throw up my hands, and so, ok, you can do it all your way! YOU set up and enforce the daily routine. But he can't. We are stuck in bankruptcy for a while, and he has to be the "breadwinner". I even fear that this stress will send me into depression again, so that makes it all the more urgent feeling to "get it settled".
I do *try* to help him get his needs met, and I do believe that we have similar values in some areas. Peacefulness would certainly be one. Personal power, I'm not sure of. I think he wants personal power, but only wants the kids to make decisions in areas that *he* feels good about... Hmmm... as I write that, I realize that that annoys me, because, usually I think they should have more freedom in the areas he gets upset with.. like food, or bedtimes...
Yet, when we both agree that we "must make the decision to protect them", such as when we decided to keep them away from powerfully polluting religious ideas.. *then* I don't get mad at him. so, I guess I'm not being consistent with my ideas.
He is more into promoting responsibility through chores, I think, than about the cleanliness. I believe that even if I keep it reasonably clean, he still feels that I am damaging them by not making them have chores. He brings this up when discussing things like curriculum.
When I tell him that I don' want to make them do schoolwork, he tells me that he feels like I am running out all his feelings/thoughts on parenthood, and brings up that he tries to tolerate the kids not having chores, but he REALLY wants them to have a curriculum so they will be exposed to all the ideas other kids thier ages are, and so that they will stay on grade level.
I know that we are coming at this from completely different points of view, and I get so stuck. I can't seem to find a common ground point when we both have different theories about children. He believes that unschooling them will lead to them being irresponsible and lazy, and resentful of us for never "teaching" them.
I guess he may be right when it somes down to it. At a base level, I am still a black/white type person, and I feel like I will be "messing up" as a parent by "forcing" the kids to do housework or schoolwork (especially on a routine, and therefore, I resist any of his thoughts on this. Maybe his gut feeling that I want "my way or no way" is right. I recognize this as black/white thinking because when I feel him resisting me, my first reaction is to just throw up my hands, and so, ok, you can do it all your way! YOU set up and enforce the daily routine. But he can't. We are stuck in bankruptcy for a while, and he has to be the "breadwinner". I even fear that this stress will send me into depression again, so that makes it all the more urgent feeling to "get it settled".
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "justmemarie31" <michellemschooling@> wrote:
> >But he still feels that I have taken away his parenting authority that he is supposed to have.
> ***************************
>
> Well, in a sense that's true. He expected to be The Dad and you've robbed him of that. He didn't get to pick. That's his perspective on the matter. Some of his need to be The Dad might be filled by showing plenty of appreciation for what he does outside the home and, as you mentioned elsewhere in the post, keeping his "love tank" full. It can also help to have some compassion - in a way, you've taken away one of his dreams. That's bound to make anyone unhappy. Listen to his woes compassionately. Don't argue, and don't worry about coming up with solutions in the moment. Be caring and kind. Often that alone will work wonders - we heap so much caring and kindness on our kids, dads need some of that too. It does a lot to help them "get" unschooling on the gut level.
>
> >>He does not agree with there not being a leader in the family. He thinks it is necessary, because it would "just be too chaotic" without one.
> **********************
>
> You mentioned chaos a few times. It sounds like he values order and/or predictability. Look for some ways to bring more of those to his life. Unschooling doesn't mean that one family member's needs are totally disregarded for the sake of the rest of the family. If you had a child who needed predictability and routine to feel secure, you'd try to do that, wouldn't you? So find a way to do it for dad. He's as much a member of the family, with needs and feelings as important as any other (and so are You!).
>
> >>(I do have to add that I am guilty of doing the same thing at times, when I'm not feeling very giving.)
> *************************
>
> This is a really valuable observation! If your dh isn't feeling valued, then its likely he doesn't feel "giving" very often. That's natural.
>
> Its also good to think about some of your less-than-stellar parenting moments when your dh is having a meltdown. He doesn't get as much practice as you do - so its going to take longer for him to learn any new skills. Its going to take longer and more for him to see any Reason to learn new skills, too - he doesn't have the luxury of being around the kids all day (I assume). Plus, if order is important to him, he's not going to see a value in your parenting ideals if he doesn't see some of that order as a result - why should he do it your way? Its obviously wrong, from his perspective.
>
> It might be helpful to think about what are your own guiding principles (or core values). Think about those in relation to your dh's needs and wants and wishes. Is there some common ground? I suspect absolute mayhem isn't one of your principles ;)
>
> >>I was able to try to help the kids and him communicate without getting in a fight with him or them feeling *too* controlled.
> ********************
>
> Here's an example - what principles are you trying to support, here? Peacefulness? Personal power? If dh is seeing chaos and a loss of authority, he isn't feeling either of those things. Helping him feel important and supported in his need for order can help there, too.
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "justmemarie31" <michellemschooling@...> wrote:
One of my personal strategies, when I get stuck looking at things in black and white is to break things down into bits. So in the quote above, I see you lumping together "forcing housework and schoolwork on a routine" and resisting that. But housework, "schoolwork" and routine are three separate ideas, and all of them can happen without resorting to force.
Have you talked with the kids about coming up with ways to help dad feel better about housework? Routines? Learning stuff? They may be willing to do things as a favor to him that they would argue and complain about if they felt pushed into it. You can try some experiments and see how they work out for everyone.
Something to consider, in this regard, is helping the kids find things to talk about with dad. It may seem a little contrived for the kids to say "I learned about xyz today!" but it may also give dad a sense of security and help him be more easygoing with the kids. Over time that's the sort of thing that spirals in a positive way. It wouldn't be something they'd have to do every day, but the more often dad hears it, the more he'll feel good about home/unschooling (especially when he hears coworkers say things like "I ask my kids what they do in school and they say: I dunno").
Here's another thought - just "thinking out loud" if you will - in terms of housework and routine, what about a sort of old fashioned routine of days for certain things - laundry day and floor washing day and bathroom day.... That could be something you set up as a "schedule" for yourself and ask the kids for help with something specific on that day.
Y'know, you could get some homeschool resources - there are books that list what various grades "need to know" ... its been awhile since I looked but they're out there. Sometimes it can be reassuring to look over lists like that and think about ways the kids are learning things like that already, especially with more than one kid, bc they'll learn things with and from each other. That can be a handy way to demonstrate one of the big benefits of home/un/multiage "schooling". It can also be a reference if you need more things to "strew" or if you want to create conversation starters for dad and kids.
I've been wondering, ever since I posted about your dh having parenting dreams, what yours are? Have you looked at them with as much objectivity as you can muster and seen that parts of them are untennable? Parts of all our dreams are untennable. I'm one of the more radical of radical unschoolers in many ways, and I've had to let go of a good many parenting dreams - looked hard and grieved and put them aside because those pretty pictures in my head didn't line up with the reality of my children.
Its possible to have a wonderful, happy, fulfilling life and still have regrets and losses, to give up some loves and dreams. I wonder, since you talked about thinking in black and white, if you sometimes get stuck thinking you either have to have everything you imagine, or will fall into despair? That's something to watch out for.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> I guess he may be right when it somes down to it. At a base level, I am still a black/white type person, and I feel like I will be "messing up" as a parent by "forcing" the kids to do housework or schoolwork (especially on a routine, and therefore, I resist any of his thoughts on this. Maybe his gut feeling that I want "my way or no way" is right.**************************
One of my personal strategies, when I get stuck looking at things in black and white is to break things down into bits. So in the quote above, I see you lumping together "forcing housework and schoolwork on a routine" and resisting that. But housework, "schoolwork" and routine are three separate ideas, and all of them can happen without resorting to force.
Have you talked with the kids about coming up with ways to help dad feel better about housework? Routines? Learning stuff? They may be willing to do things as a favor to him that they would argue and complain about if they felt pushed into it. You can try some experiments and see how they work out for everyone.
Something to consider, in this regard, is helping the kids find things to talk about with dad. It may seem a little contrived for the kids to say "I learned about xyz today!" but it may also give dad a sense of security and help him be more easygoing with the kids. Over time that's the sort of thing that spirals in a positive way. It wouldn't be something they'd have to do every day, but the more often dad hears it, the more he'll feel good about home/unschooling (especially when he hears coworkers say things like "I ask my kids what they do in school and they say: I dunno").
Here's another thought - just "thinking out loud" if you will - in terms of housework and routine, what about a sort of old fashioned routine of days for certain things - laundry day and floor washing day and bathroom day.... That could be something you set up as a "schedule" for yourself and ask the kids for help with something specific on that day.
>>he REALLY wants them to have a curriculum so they will be exposed to all the ideas other kids thier ages are, and so that they will stay on grade level.***********************
Y'know, you could get some homeschool resources - there are books that list what various grades "need to know" ... its been awhile since I looked but they're out there. Sometimes it can be reassuring to look over lists like that and think about ways the kids are learning things like that already, especially with more than one kid, bc they'll learn things with and from each other. That can be a handy way to demonstrate one of the big benefits of home/un/multiage "schooling". It can also be a reference if you need more things to "strew" or if you want to create conversation starters for dad and kids.
>> I even fear that this stress will send me into depression again, so that makes it all the more urgent feeling to "get it settled".********************
I've been wondering, ever since I posted about your dh having parenting dreams, what yours are? Have you looked at them with as much objectivity as you can muster and seen that parts of them are untennable? Parts of all our dreams are untennable. I'm one of the more radical of radical unschoolers in many ways, and I've had to let go of a good many parenting dreams - looked hard and grieved and put them aside because those pretty pictures in my head didn't line up with the reality of my children.
Its possible to have a wonderful, happy, fulfilling life and still have regrets and losses, to give up some loves and dreams. I wonder, since you talked about thinking in black and white, if you sometimes get stuck thinking you either have to have everything you imagine, or will fall into despair? That's something to watch out for.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)