Few Questions
Michelle Cloud
Hi, everyone! I'm Michelle, mom to a 15yodd and 11yods. I am a full-time college student pursuing a double major in History and Humanities. I should be done by the end of this year. We are a military family (Navy) stationed in Naples, Italy. I've been homeschooling for 8 years and have just recently (like in the last week or two) started unschooling. I've been reading tons and trying to find out as much as I can but some things just still seem unclear to me. I do have to say, though, that as soon as we started doing this, I felt a huge weight lifted off my shoulders. No more spending hours scheduling, no more "you have to get your schoolwork done before you can play that new educational game we got for you", no more "are we doing enough? Are they being challenged enough? Are they being too challenged?", etc.
First off, let me say that I have amazing, wonderful kids. We are very close. I brought my daughter home after 1st grade and my son has never gone to "regular" school. We have amazing opportunities here in Italy. We've been here just over a year and have just under 2 years left. We've been to Rome a couple of times, Vatican City, Pompeii, and have had the best pizza, wine, cheese, and bread on the whole planet.
Okay, onto my questions. I've read a few times about "arbitrary" bed times, time on video games and/or other things and I'm wondering what that means. Do you mean just throwing a time out there with no thoughts? My son has a bedtime of 10:00 and my daughter of 10:30. On weekends they have an extra 1/2 an hour. Granted, this is a hold-over from the schooling days, so it could possibly be changed. We sometimes let our kids have what we call "movie nights" or we let them stay up as late as they want. I don't understand what can be done at 3 a.m. that can't be done a 10 a.m., but I digress. My son is always asking "can we stay up late tonight?" and I honestly get tired of that question. Kids need their rest, so I don't want to let them stay up all night - where's the balance?
Video games. I've been reading the WoW thread with interest. I do have to say that my viewpoint on video games has changed just since being on this list for a few days. I was one of those moms that hated video games. We have a 360, Wii, 2 DSs and 2 PSPs. My kids were allowed to play only on the weekends and only if they got their schoolwork and chores done during the week. However, after reading quite a few of these posts, I've done a complete 180. My son wants to be a video game designer and it's like a lightbulb went off when I read something about pursuing what they're passionate in and helping them develop the skills that they want to pursue. I was almost like "Duh!" if he wants to do that for a living he needs to see how the various engines work, etc. So now, hubby and I are trying to decide, again, where the balance is. On the weekends, he literally plays from the moment he wakes up until he goes to bed (unless we'd like to watch something on tv - the tv in the living room is the only one with the game systems on it). They also have iPods that they download various television shows on (Mythbusters, Mystery Diagnosis). I'm guessing that he probably plays so much on the weekends because that is the only time he gets to. He has actually said that he wants to get in as much time as he can on the weekends because its (to him) such a short time. So, we'd like to give him more access, but how much?
Chores. I've only been on here a few days so I've not read anything about chores. I have some medical issues and some days I just can not do a lot. Right now we have a chore list but after a while of doing the same chores they get bored. I can understand. They've also come to realize that there are some things that they just don't like doing as far as chores go. How do you handle chores? A list? Let them do what they want? My dd - I hate to say it - but she is quite lazy and will walk over a pile of dirty clothes rather than put it in the hamper or, God forbid, throw it in the washing machine. We told her a year or so back that we would not tell her how to keep her room. If she chose to clean it, fine, if not, fine. The only stipulation we put on that is she couldn't leave food/dishes (bugs) in the room and we'd like her to pick up her laundry and put it in the laundry room because after a while it starts to smell. Other than that we've got various chores from folding a load of laundry to emptying the dishwasher, etc. How do you handle chores?
I am asking these questions seriously as I would like to know how to "do this right".
Thanks!
Michelle
************************************
"Just as eating against one's will is injurious to health, so study without a liking for it spoils the memory, and it retains nothing it takes in."
--Leonardo da Vinci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First off, let me say that I have amazing, wonderful kids. We are very close. I brought my daughter home after 1st grade and my son has never gone to "regular" school. We have amazing opportunities here in Italy. We've been here just over a year and have just under 2 years left. We've been to Rome a couple of times, Vatican City, Pompeii, and have had the best pizza, wine, cheese, and bread on the whole planet.
Okay, onto my questions. I've read a few times about "arbitrary" bed times, time on video games and/or other things and I'm wondering what that means. Do you mean just throwing a time out there with no thoughts? My son has a bedtime of 10:00 and my daughter of 10:30. On weekends they have an extra 1/2 an hour. Granted, this is a hold-over from the schooling days, so it could possibly be changed. We sometimes let our kids have what we call "movie nights" or we let them stay up as late as they want. I don't understand what can be done at 3 a.m. that can't be done a 10 a.m., but I digress. My son is always asking "can we stay up late tonight?" and I honestly get tired of that question. Kids need their rest, so I don't want to let them stay up all night - where's the balance?
Video games. I've been reading the WoW thread with interest. I do have to say that my viewpoint on video games has changed just since being on this list for a few days. I was one of those moms that hated video games. We have a 360, Wii, 2 DSs and 2 PSPs. My kids were allowed to play only on the weekends and only if they got their schoolwork and chores done during the week. However, after reading quite a few of these posts, I've done a complete 180. My son wants to be a video game designer and it's like a lightbulb went off when I read something about pursuing what they're passionate in and helping them develop the skills that they want to pursue. I was almost like "Duh!" if he wants to do that for a living he needs to see how the various engines work, etc. So now, hubby and I are trying to decide, again, where the balance is. On the weekends, he literally plays from the moment he wakes up until he goes to bed (unless we'd like to watch something on tv - the tv in the living room is the only one with the game systems on it). They also have iPods that they download various television shows on (Mythbusters, Mystery Diagnosis). I'm guessing that he probably plays so much on the weekends because that is the only time he gets to. He has actually said that he wants to get in as much time as he can on the weekends because its (to him) such a short time. So, we'd like to give him more access, but how much?
Chores. I've only been on here a few days so I've not read anything about chores. I have some medical issues and some days I just can not do a lot. Right now we have a chore list but after a while of doing the same chores they get bored. I can understand. They've also come to realize that there are some things that they just don't like doing as far as chores go. How do you handle chores? A list? Let them do what they want? My dd - I hate to say it - but she is quite lazy and will walk over a pile of dirty clothes rather than put it in the hamper or, God forbid, throw it in the washing machine. We told her a year or so back that we would not tell her how to keep her room. If she chose to clean it, fine, if not, fine. The only stipulation we put on that is she couldn't leave food/dishes (bugs) in the room and we'd like her to pick up her laundry and put it in the laundry room because after a while it starts to smell. Other than that we've got various chores from folding a load of laundry to emptying the dishwasher, etc. How do you handle chores?
I am asking these questions seriously as I would like to know how to "do this right".
Thanks!
Michelle
************************************
"Just as eating against one's will is injurious to health, so study without a liking for it spoils the memory, and it retains nothing it takes in."
--Leonardo da Vinci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 18, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Michelle Cloud wrote:
the answer is that you know what the answer is for you and can't
understand why or how it could be any different for anyone else.
Some people are night owls. If you read here long enough, you'll hear
stories of adults who were sent to bed at bed time and tried each
night to sleep but just couldn't. They'd lie there *every night*
until 1 or 2 when *their* bodies wanted to sleep. As much as their
parents tried to make them be the way the parents thought was right,
it just didn't work.
If someone's body is naturally on a different schedule, 10 AM to them
is like 2 AM to you. Their energy and mental gears are going on a
different schedule. You might be zippiest at 11 AM and winding down
at 8 PM. What if your body felt differently. What if you were
naturally zippy at 8 PM and draggy at 11 AM and your husband dragged
you around at 11AM to get things done when you were drained and sat
down for a relaxing evening at 8 PM for reading or TV and you were
ready to dance?
If you read here long enough, you'll see that body clocks are what
they are and no amount of external force can change them. People can
*choose* to adapt *themselves*. If they really want a job that starts
at 8AM, they can find ways to function. Or they can find a night job.
But it's not something someone can impose on them.
They'd sleep later.
If people need something, they find a way to get it.
You're looking too short term. While sleep is a good thing, that
doesn't mean rigidly in bed at 10 PM for 8 hours each night gives
someone a ticket to health. Kids *will* push their boundaries to find
out their limits. They will push their boundaries when something even
better is making it worth putting up with some negatives. For
instance, staying up all night to play a new video game will be
*well* worth giving up sleep for. But this isn't going to damage
their health. Eventually what the game returns won't be fascinating
enough to overcome the tiredness. This shouldn't be seen as a lesson
learned so won't ever happen again. The goal isn't to teach them
sleep is important. The goal is to remove the obstacles that get in
the way of sleep. But sometimes they *will* choose to give up sleep
when there's something more important going on. The trick is not to
create things that seem more important by making staying up late be
something desired.
What you're doing isn't helping them get enough sleep. You've changed
the problem into getting them to sleep at the time you've chosen. And
you're treating the two problems (enough sleep, sleeping at 10 PM) as
though they were the same.
Where things go wrong for new unschoolers is that they hear "let them
sleep when they're tired" and they let go of bedtimes. What happens
is: 1) the kids are so jazzed at not having to sleep that they push
themselves to exhaustion and have a hard time falling asleep and 2)
the kids are up at 2 AM while the parents sleep and the mom is
uncomfortable with that (or the kids get loud at night and wake
everyone) and she doesn't know what to do.
The goal is to help them figure out what sleepy feels like and help
them fall asleep when they choose to. To do that you remove the
obstacles and artificial reasons that are driving them to want to
fight sleep. That doesn't mean that they will always choose to sleep
when sleepy. It means that they will be able to recognize when
they're tired and then be able to decide for this moment whether
staying up is more important than sleep. Right now they aren't
learning how to choose. They're learning that the clock (and parents)
dictate when sleep happens.
*One* way is to wind down the house starting at 8. Lower lights. Do
quieter things. Get a routine in. Bath. Reading. But don't make sleep
mandatory. The goal is to wind the house down so others can sleep if
they want to.
That is *not* a formula for success. ;-) It works well in some homes,
and fails in others. It depends on your kids. *Some* families find a
mintramp set up in front of the TV or wherever the family is gathered
helps the kids get the zings out of their system. Obviously the total
opposite of the above ;-)
There are *lots* of techniques that families try out for size. If you
type bedtime into the archive search of the list, you'll find lots.
Think of the balance of riding a bike. You can ride with them as
littles on the back of your bike but you can't give them your
balance. The only way they can find their own is to do it on their
own and try a lot of different things until they find what's right
*for them*. And then, and only then, do they ride.
Sleep balance, and lots of other balances like food and video game
playing, are a bit different. There isn't just one way of doing it
and sometimes the balance will only be seen in the long term, not the
short term. I think the more useful question in terms of creating an
environment where they can explore freely without balance chaining
them to a single answer is "How can we balance family life with free
exploration?" In terms of mindful parenting and unschooling, your
goal isn't to find their balance for them, but to make the
environment safe for them to explore in, and help them find options
that don't trample on the toes of others. Give them the freedom to
find their own balance.
you want to shift your goal to helping them sleep when they're tired
instead of making them sleep on the schedule you think is necessary.
You're creating staying up as a really cool desirable thing. If you
were to let them stay up they'd want to stay up later and later and
all night even because it's this wonderful thing you're handing out
in rare bits like diamonds.
When kids know they can choose to stay up late any night they want,
it loses its luster. So if the reason they want to stay up is because
you're making it into a treat, when they know they can stay up any
night they want, it's not a big deal.
But *don't* just remove bedtimes for a free for all! It's a recipe
for disaster. Read in the archives for other ideas.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Okay, onto my questions. I've read a few times about "arbitrary"Actually it's an important question. And the reason you aren't seeing
> bed times, time on video games and/or other things and I'm
> wondering what that means. Do you mean just throwing a time out
> there with no thoughts? My son has a bedtime of 10:00 and my
> daughter of 10:30. On weekends they have an extra 1/2 an hour.
> Granted, this is a hold-over from the schooling days, so it could
> possibly be changed. We sometimes let our kids have what we call
> "movie nights" or we let them stay up as late as they want.
> I don't understand what can be done at 3 a.m. that can't be done a
> 10 a.m., but I digress.
the answer is that you know what the answer is for you and can't
understand why or how it could be any different for anyone else.
Some people are night owls. If you read here long enough, you'll hear
stories of adults who were sent to bed at bed time and tried each
night to sleep but just couldn't. They'd lie there *every night*
until 1 or 2 when *their* bodies wanted to sleep. As much as their
parents tried to make them be the way the parents thought was right,
it just didn't work.
If someone's body is naturally on a different schedule, 10 AM to them
is like 2 AM to you. Their energy and mental gears are going on a
different schedule. You might be zippiest at 11 AM and winding down
at 8 PM. What if your body felt differently. What if you were
naturally zippy at 8 PM and draggy at 11 AM and your husband dragged
you around at 11AM to get things done when you were drained and sat
down for a relaxing evening at 8 PM for reading or TV and you were
ready to dance?
If you read here long enough, you'll see that body clocks are what
they are and no amount of external force can change them. People can
*choose* to adapt *themselves*. If they really want a job that starts
at 8AM, they can find ways to function. Or they can find a night job.
But it's not something someone can impose on them.
> Kids need their rest, so I don't want to let them stay up all nightWhat would happen if they stayed up all night?
> - where's the balance?
They'd sleep later.
If people need something, they find a way to get it.
You're looking too short term. While sleep is a good thing, that
doesn't mean rigidly in bed at 10 PM for 8 hours each night gives
someone a ticket to health. Kids *will* push their boundaries to find
out their limits. They will push their boundaries when something even
better is making it worth putting up with some negatives. For
instance, staying up all night to play a new video game will be
*well* worth giving up sleep for. But this isn't going to damage
their health. Eventually what the game returns won't be fascinating
enough to overcome the tiredness. This shouldn't be seen as a lesson
learned so won't ever happen again. The goal isn't to teach them
sleep is important. The goal is to remove the obstacles that get in
the way of sleep. But sometimes they *will* choose to give up sleep
when there's something more important going on. The trick is not to
create things that seem more important by making staying up late be
something desired.
What you're doing isn't helping them get enough sleep. You've changed
the problem into getting them to sleep at the time you've chosen. And
you're treating the two problems (enough sleep, sleeping at 10 PM) as
though they were the same.
Where things go wrong for new unschoolers is that they hear "let them
sleep when they're tired" and they let go of bedtimes. What happens
is: 1) the kids are so jazzed at not having to sleep that they push
themselves to exhaustion and have a hard time falling asleep and 2)
the kids are up at 2 AM while the parents sleep and the mom is
uncomfortable with that (or the kids get loud at night and wake
everyone) and she doesn't know what to do.
The goal is to help them figure out what sleepy feels like and help
them fall asleep when they choose to. To do that you remove the
obstacles and artificial reasons that are driving them to want to
fight sleep. That doesn't mean that they will always choose to sleep
when sleepy. It means that they will be able to recognize when
they're tired and then be able to decide for this moment whether
staying up is more important than sleep. Right now they aren't
learning how to choose. They're learning that the clock (and parents)
dictate when sleep happens.
*One* way is to wind down the house starting at 8. Lower lights. Do
quieter things. Get a routine in. Bath. Reading. But don't make sleep
mandatory. The goal is to wind the house down so others can sleep if
they want to.
That is *not* a formula for success. ;-) It works well in some homes,
and fails in others. It depends on your kids. *Some* families find a
mintramp set up in front of the TV or wherever the family is gathered
helps the kids get the zings out of their system. Obviously the total
opposite of the above ;-)
There are *lots* of techniques that families try out for size. If you
type bedtime into the archive search of the list, you'll find lots.
> where's the balance?Where's the balance? Inside of them trying to find its own way.
Think of the balance of riding a bike. You can ride with them as
littles on the back of your bike but you can't give them your
balance. The only way they can find their own is to do it on their
own and try a lot of different things until they find what's right
*for them*. And then, and only then, do they ride.
Sleep balance, and lots of other balances like food and video game
playing, are a bit different. There isn't just one way of doing it
and sometimes the balance will only be seen in the long term, not the
short term. I think the more useful question in terms of creating an
environment where they can explore freely without balance chaining
them to a single answer is "How can we balance family life with free
exploration?" In terms of mindful parenting and unschooling, your
goal isn't to find their balance for them, but to make the
environment safe for them to explore in, and help them find options
that don't trample on the toes of others. Give them the freedom to
find their own balance.
> My son is always asking "can we stay up late tonight?" and IThis is where you're setting yourself up for greater difficulties if
> honestly get tired of that question.
you want to shift your goal to helping them sleep when they're tired
instead of making them sleep on the schedule you think is necessary.
You're creating staying up as a really cool desirable thing. If you
were to let them stay up they'd want to stay up later and later and
all night even because it's this wonderful thing you're handing out
in rare bits like diamonds.
When kids know they can choose to stay up late any night they want,
it loses its luster. So if the reason they want to stay up is because
you're making it into a treat, when they know they can stay up any
night they want, it's not a big deal.
But *don't* just remove bedtimes for a free for all! It's a recipe
for disaster. Read in the archives for other ideas.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 18, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Michelle Cloud wrote:
environment pleasant for him (and the rest of the family!) for him to
explore freely. In the process he will find a balance. The balance
will change over time. Right now, the balance is to suck in as much
as he can. That *will* level off, though not on your schedule. Let go
of expecting him to play only to the point where you think he's had
enough. His balance may always be off of what you expect. But he
won't be playing 12 hours a day for the rest of his life. He *will*
find a balance if you're not pushing and pulling at him to impose
your idea of balance on him.
And, again, this is where we're miscommunicating. Creating an
environment for him to freely explore in doesn't mean releasing him
to the TV and waiting for him to resurface. Stay connected to him.
Play with him for a while. (It doesn't mean as long as he does! Play
for enjoyment and play to help you understand what fascinates him so
much). Talk about the games. Buy gaming guides. Help him find
walkthroughs. Bring him food.
Involve him in family plans. Treat the gaming seriously as though he
were working on Fermat's Last Theorem. When he feels that you're
helping him do what involves him he won't need to fight to get the
time to do it. When he feels you're helping him, he'll have the
ability to help you by making some accommodations for the rest of the
family. (This might take longer than you'd think. If he's had to
struggle to get what he wants, if you now start helping him and
treating his interests seriously, he's not going to *feel* the trust
for a good long while. You have to rebuild it. And rebuilding trust
requires being trustworthy for a good long while.)
Anyway what I was going to say is involve him in making family plans.
If there's a dentist appointment at 10, approach it with "Let's see
how we can make this work so both can fit in," rather than the
standard parenting practice of making the kid stop the trivial
playing for the important adult imposed things.
problem. Kids can't choose to watch TV with the family if the choice
is made for them.
hour of TV each day, very likely they will watch for that hour
whether they love the program or not and try to squeeze out even more
because that time is so rare and precious. When kids are given the
freedom to turn on the TV, they can choose not to watch because there
isn't anything they want to watch. TV is just another choice in their
life like books and crafting and skateboarding.
Pam Sorooshian wrote a really good post on this:
http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics.html
There are certain ages, usually transition ages when kids brains are
shifting and seeing the world in a new way, when they can watch a lot
of TV (and play a lot of video games). Preteenish is the biggest. The
"middle school" years. (Interestingly, teachers see this as sort of a
holding pen time. The kids are transitioning and there isn't one
right thing to do with them. So they kind of just hold on and go
through the motions until the kids are released into high school ;-)
My daughter watched a *lot* of TV then and played a lot of games. She
was between kid interests and more grown up interests and feeling out
the new possibilities. Which *looked* like doing nothing but it was
all internal rearrangement work. It *is* a hard period for parents!
But they do come out of it. At 17 she doesn't have enough time in her
busy schedule to keep the DVR free ;-)
What helped was getting a DVR so that she could set it to record the
programs she wanted. That way she didn't feel chained to the TV by
the station's schedule.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> So now, hubby and I are trying to decide, again, where the balance is.Well you can't decide what's balance for him. You can though make the
environment pleasant for him (and the rest of the family!) for him to
explore freely. In the process he will find a balance. The balance
will change over time. Right now, the balance is to suck in as much
as he can. That *will* level off, though not on your schedule. Let go
of expecting him to play only to the point where you think he's had
enough. His balance may always be off of what you expect. But he
won't be playing 12 hours a day for the rest of his life. He *will*
find a balance if you're not pushing and pulling at him to impose
your idea of balance on him.
And, again, this is where we're miscommunicating. Creating an
environment for him to freely explore in doesn't mean releasing him
to the TV and waiting for him to resurface. Stay connected to him.
Play with him for a while. (It doesn't mean as long as he does! Play
for enjoyment and play to help you understand what fascinates him so
much). Talk about the games. Buy gaming guides. Help him find
walkthroughs. Bring him food.
Involve him in family plans. Treat the gaming seriously as though he
were working on Fermat's Last Theorem. When he feels that you're
helping him do what involves him he won't need to fight to get the
time to do it. When he feels you're helping him, he'll have the
ability to help you by making some accommodations for the rest of the
family. (This might take longer than you'd think. If he's had to
struggle to get what he wants, if you now start helping him and
treating his interests seriously, he's not going to *feel* the trust
for a good long while. You have to rebuild it. And rebuilding trust
requires being trustworthy for a good long while.)
Anyway what I was going to say is involve him in making family plans.
If there's a dentist appointment at 10, approach it with "Let's see
how we can make this work so both can fit in," rather than the
standard parenting practice of making the kid stop the trivial
playing for the important adult imposed things.
> On the weekends, he literally plays from the moment he wakes upI'd seriously consider getting another TV for the games if it's a
> until he goes to bed (unless we'd like to watch something on tv -
> the tv in the living
> room is the only one with the game systems on it).
problem. Kids can't choose to watch TV with the family if the choice
is made for them.
> I'm guessing that he probably plays so much on the weekends becauseYes, you're creating a rare commodity for him. If kids are given an
> that is the only time he gets to. He has actually said that he
> wants to get in as much time as he can on the weekends because its
> (to him) such a short time. So, we'd like to give him more access,
> but how much?
hour of TV each day, very likely they will watch for that hour
whether they love the program or not and try to squeeze out even more
because that time is so rare and precious. When kids are given the
freedom to turn on the TV, they can choose not to watch because there
isn't anything they want to watch. TV is just another choice in their
life like books and crafting and skateboarding.
Pam Sorooshian wrote a really good post on this:
http://www.sandradodd.com/t/economics.html
There are certain ages, usually transition ages when kids brains are
shifting and seeing the world in a new way, when they can watch a lot
of TV (and play a lot of video games). Preteenish is the biggest. The
"middle school" years. (Interestingly, teachers see this as sort of a
holding pen time. The kids are transitioning and there isn't one
right thing to do with them. So they kind of just hold on and go
through the motions until the kids are released into high school ;-)
My daughter watched a *lot* of TV then and played a lot of games. She
was between kid interests and more grown up interests and feeling out
the new possibilities. Which *looked* like doing nothing but it was
all internal rearrangement work. It *is* a hard period for parents!
But they do come out of it. At 17 she doesn't have enough time in her
busy schedule to keep the DVR free ;-)
What helped was getting a DVR so that she could set it to record the
programs she wanted. That way she didn't feel chained to the TV by
the station's schedule.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 18, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Michelle Cloud wrote:
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
down the right side is stuff on chores. I've gathered a lot of the
most common questions and answers to them. You may still have
questions after but I won't have to recreate the entire foundation ;-)
Also:
http://www.sandradodd.com/chores
If you have medical issues I think the greatest gift you can give the
family is finding ways to simplify the tasks so there's less work.
This gets easier as you get going because you start breaking down
"rules of how things must be" that you didn't even know were there! ;-)
As an example of out of the box thinking, one family stored their
clothes where the washer is.
Another out of the box idea is that one family only kept in daily
circulation enough dishes for one meal. That way the dishes to be
washed couldn't pile up.
Another is large bins where kids play so that toys can be tossed in
very easily.
There isn't a simple solution to chores. It's a lot of shifting of
mental attitude, looking at things in new ways, seeing that
conventional ways often solve the immediate problem (a temporarily
clean room) but create larger problems in the future.
relationships to see a child or a spouse in negative light when
they're just different.
The real definition of lazy is someone who isn't meeting someone
else's standards or expectations.
*I* step over stuff. Not because I'm lazy but because I have more
important things to do or because I'm so focused on something else
that I don't see it.
Treat her as though she really can't see the clothes. At this moment
they're beneath her radar. You can't change her radar. Age will do
that. In the meantime you can just add unpleasantness to her life in
the quest to change her.
If you see her setting a glass down on the counter, just say
"Dishwasher." If you see her drop her pants, just say "Hamper." Trust
that she isn't trying to make your life more difficult. She's just
not able to see what you do because she's not an adult. She's focused
with kid vision and only age will change that.
Two things that will help:
How to Talk to Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
http://tinyurl.com/2zx2mf
And Scott Noelle's Daily Groove. This is by email. It's *short*. Each
takes less than a minute a day to read. But he's really good at
getting some profound changes in perspective across in a few words.
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
them.
I think it's also helpful to offer to clean it up for them
occasionally when the muse strikes you. Kids can easily create a mess
that's overwhelming.
I could literally see the change in the way my daughter viewed
turning chaos into order as she moved into her preteen years. I would
sometimes ask if she'd match socks or fold kitchen towels and it was
like I asked her to run a marathon. But we let it go. What looked to
us like a small task was to her large. We just asked and as she got
older I could see that her brain was making new connections and it
became easy for her.
A few times the house has gotten to the point where I don't know what
to do first and it seems like an impossible task. I kept that feeling
in mind whenever I asked her to do something that *to me* looked
simple, I accepted that to her it looked like a whole house disaster.
But at 17 she's perfectly capable of tackling a room and sending
things off to their proper places or finding new ways of storing
them. Not because I trained her for 17 years but because I let her
mature enough to be able to do it and treated her time with respect
and didn't make her.
And it's much easier to maintain ownership of retrieving plates. *Do*
ask if she could make a sweep, but make it your thing that you ask
her help with. She really, literally, can't care about bugs the way
you can. It can't be as important to her because she still thinks in
kid ways. Another way is to make this an if/then deal. She can eat in
her room if she brings the plates out. If she can't remember, she
needs to eat in the kitchen. That's a hard concept to explain because
it sounds like conventional parenting. It's *not* a rule. Eating only
in the kitchen is *not* a punishment. It's just the deal. It's a
"Yes, you can if ..." Let her test her ability periodically. She will
get older and better able to remember.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Chores. I've only been on here a few days so I've not readThe best first step is to read here:
> anything about chores. I have some medical issues and some days I
> just can not do a lot. Right now we have a chore list but after a
> while of doing the same chores they get bored. I can understand.
> They've also come to realize that there are some things that they
> just don't like doing as far as chores go. How do you handle
> chores? A list? Let them do what they want?
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com
down the right side is stuff on chores. I've gathered a lot of the
most common questions and answers to them. You may still have
questions after but I won't have to recreate the entire foundation ;-)
Also:
http://www.sandradodd.com/chores
If you have medical issues I think the greatest gift you can give the
family is finding ways to simplify the tasks so there's less work.
This gets easier as you get going because you start breaking down
"rules of how things must be" that you didn't even know were there! ;-)
As an example of out of the box thinking, one family stored their
clothes where the washer is.
Another out of the box idea is that one family only kept in daily
circulation enough dishes for one meal. That way the dishes to be
washed couldn't pile up.
Another is large bins where kids play so that toys can be tossed in
very easily.
There isn't a simple solution to chores. It's a lot of shifting of
mental attitude, looking at things in new ways, seeing that
conventional ways often solve the immediate problem (a temporarily
clean room) but create larger problems in the future.
> My dd - I hate to say it - but she is quite lazy and will walk overIt *really* helps to view this in a different way. It tears down
> a pile of dirty clothes rather than put it in the hamper or, God
> forbid, throw it in the washing machine.
relationships to see a child or a spouse in negative light when
they're just different.
The real definition of lazy is someone who isn't meeting someone
else's standards or expectations.
*I* step over stuff. Not because I'm lazy but because I have more
important things to do or because I'm so focused on something else
that I don't see it.
Treat her as though she really can't see the clothes. At this moment
they're beneath her radar. You can't change her radar. Age will do
that. In the meantime you can just add unpleasantness to her life in
the quest to change her.
If you see her setting a glass down on the counter, just say
"Dishwasher." If you see her drop her pants, just say "Hamper." Trust
that she isn't trying to make your life more difficult. She's just
not able to see what you do because she's not an adult. She's focused
with kid vision and only age will change that.
Two things that will help:
How to Talk to Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
http://tinyurl.com/2zx2mf
And Scott Noelle's Daily Groove. This is by email. It's *short*. Each
takes less than a minute a day to read. But he's really good at
getting some profound changes in perspective across in a few words.
www.enjoyparenting.com/dailygroove
> We told her a year or so back that we would not tell her how toI think it's helpful for a relationship for kids rooms to belong to
> keep her room. If she chose to clean it, fine, if not, fine. The
> only stipulation we put on that is she couldn't leave food/dishes
> (bugs) in the room and we'd like her to pick up her laundry and put
> it in the laundry room because after a while it starts to smell.
them.
I think it's also helpful to offer to clean it up for them
occasionally when the muse strikes you. Kids can easily create a mess
that's overwhelming.
I could literally see the change in the way my daughter viewed
turning chaos into order as she moved into her preteen years. I would
sometimes ask if she'd match socks or fold kitchen towels and it was
like I asked her to run a marathon. But we let it go. What looked to
us like a small task was to her large. We just asked and as she got
older I could see that her brain was making new connections and it
became easy for her.
A few times the house has gotten to the point where I don't know what
to do first and it seems like an impossible task. I kept that feeling
in mind whenever I asked her to do something that *to me* looked
simple, I accepted that to her it looked like a whole house disaster.
But at 17 she's perfectly capable of tackling a room and sending
things off to their proper places or finding new ways of storing
them. Not because I trained her for 17 years but because I let her
mature enough to be able to do it and treated her time with respect
and didn't make her.
And it's much easier to maintain ownership of retrieving plates. *Do*
ask if she could make a sweep, but make it your thing that you ask
her help with. She really, literally, can't care about bugs the way
you can. It can't be as important to her because she still thinks in
kid ways. Another way is to make this an if/then deal. She can eat in
her room if she brings the plates out. If she can't remember, she
needs to eat in the kitchen. That's a hard concept to explain because
it sounds like conventional parenting. It's *not* a rule. Eating only
in the kitchen is *not* a punishment. It's just the deal. It's a
"Yes, you can if ..." Let her test her ability periodically. She will
get older and better able to remember.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen James
Joyce, I find your answers are to these questions very enlightening. Can
you recommend any reading material on the topic of radical unschooling? My
son is 6 and we are homeschooling. I consider that we give him a lot of
room to be, but I know we hold on to a fair number of prescribed ways of
being that we find difficult to shake. Thanks again for your thoughtful and
insightful responses.
Respectfully,
Karen James.
you recommend any reading material on the topic of radical unschooling? My
son is 6 and we are homeschooling. I consider that we give him a lot of
room to be, but I know we hold on to a fair number of prescribed ways of
being that we find difficult to shake. Thanks again for your thoughtful and
insightful responses.
Respectfully,
Karen James.
On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 7:10 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
>
> On Jan 18, 2009, at 6:54 PM, Michelle Cloud wrote:
>
> > Okay, onto my questions. I've read a few times about "arbitrary"
> > bed times, time on video games and/or other things and I'm
> > wondering what that means. Do you mean just throwing a time out
> > there with no thoughts? My son has a bedtime of 10:00 and my
> > daughter of 10:30. On weekends they have an extra 1/2 an hour.
> > Granted, this is a hold-over from the schooling days, so it could
> > possibly be changed. We sometimes let our kids have what we call
> > "movie nights" or we let them stay up as late as they want.
>
> > I don't understand what can be done at 3 a.m. that can't be done a
> > 10 a.m., but I digress.
>
> Actually it's an important question. And the reason you aren't seeing
> the answer is that you know what the answer is for you and can't
> understand why or how it could be any different for anyone else.
>
> Some people are night owls. If you read here long enough, you'll hear
> stories of adults who were sent to bed at bed time and tried each
> night to sleep but just couldn't. They'd lie there *every night*
> until 1 or 2 when *their* bodies wanted to sleep. As much as their
> parents tried to make them be the way the parents thought was right,
> it just didn't work.
>
> If someone's body is naturally on a different schedule, 10 AM to them
> is like 2 AM to you. Their energy and mental gears are going on a
> different schedule. You might be zippiest at 11 AM and winding down
> at 8 PM. What if your body felt differently. What if you were
> naturally zippy at 8 PM and draggy at 11 AM and your husband dragged
> you around at 11AM to get things done when you were drained and sat
> down for a relaxing evening at 8 PM for reading or TV and you were
> ready to dance?
>
> If you read here long enough, you'll see that body clocks are what
> they are and no amount of external force can change them. People can
> *choose* to adapt *themselves*. If they really want a job that starts
> at 8AM, they can find ways to function. Or they can find a night job.
> But it's not something someone can impose on them.
>
> > Kids need their rest, so I don't want to let them stay up all night
> > - where's the balance?
>
> What would happen if they stayed up all night?
>
> They'd sleep later.
>
> If people need something, they find a way to get it.
>
> You're looking too short term. While sleep is a good thing, that
> doesn't mean rigidly in bed at 10 PM for 8 hours each night gives
> someone a ticket to health. Kids *will* push their boundaries to find
> out their limits. They will push their boundaries when something even
> better is making it worth putting up with some negatives. For
> instance, staying up all night to play a new video game will be
> *well* worth giving up sleep for. But this isn't going to damage
> their health. Eventually what the game returns won't be fascinating
> enough to overcome the tiredness. This shouldn't be seen as a lesson
> learned so won't ever happen again. The goal isn't to teach them
> sleep is important. The goal is to remove the obstacles that get in
> the way of sleep. But sometimes they *will* choose to give up sleep
> when there's something more important going on. The trick is not to
> create things that seem more important by making staying up late be
> something desired.
>
> What you're doing isn't helping them get enough sleep. You've changed
> the problem into getting them to sleep at the time you've chosen. And
> you're treating the two problems (enough sleep, sleeping at 10 PM) as
> though they were the same.
>
> Where things go wrong for new unschoolers is that they hear "let them
> sleep when they're tired" and they let go of bedtimes. What happens
> is: 1) the kids are so jazzed at not having to sleep that they push
> themselves to exhaustion and have a hard time falling asleep and 2)
> the kids are up at 2 AM while the parents sleep and the mom is
> uncomfortable with that (or the kids get loud at night and wake
> everyone) and she doesn't know what to do.
>
> The goal is to help them figure out what sleepy feels like and help
> them fall asleep when they choose to. To do that you remove the
> obstacles and artificial reasons that are driving them to want to
> fight sleep. That doesn't mean that they will always choose to sleep
> when sleepy. It means that they will be able to recognize when
> they're tired and then be able to decide for this moment whether
> staying up is more important than sleep. Right now they aren't
> learning how to choose. They're learning that the clock (and parents)
> dictate when sleep happens.
>
> *One* way is to wind down the house starting at 8. Lower lights. Do
> quieter things. Get a routine in. Bath. Reading. But don't make sleep
> mandatory. The goal is to wind the house down so others can sleep if
> they want to.
>
> That is *not* a formula for success. ;-) It works well in some homes,
> and fails in others. It depends on your kids. *Some* families find a
> mintramp set up in front of the TV or wherever the family is gathered
> helps the kids get the zings out of their system. Obviously the total
> opposite of the above ;-)
>
> There are *lots* of techniques that families try out for size. If you
> type bedtime into the archive search of the list, you'll find lots.
>
> > where's the balance?
>
> Where's the balance? Inside of them trying to find its own way.
>
> Think of the balance of riding a bike. You can ride with them as
> littles on the back of your bike but you can't give them your
> balance. The only way they can find their own is to do it on their
> own and try a lot of different things until they find what's right
> *for them*. And then, and only then, do they ride.
>
> Sleep balance, and lots of other balances like food and video game
> playing, are a bit different. There isn't just one way of doing it
> and sometimes the balance will only be seen in the long term, not the
> short term. I think the more useful question in terms of creating an
> environment where they can explore freely without balance chaining
> them to a single answer is "How can we balance family life with free
> exploration?" In terms of mindful parenting and unschooling, your
> goal isn't to find their balance for them, but to make the
> environment safe for them to explore in, and help them find options
> that don't trample on the toes of others. Give them the freedom to
> find their own balance.
>
> > My son is always asking "can we stay up late tonight?" and I
> > honestly get tired of that question.
>
> This is where you're setting yourself up for greater difficulties if
> you want to shift your goal to helping them sleep when they're tired
> instead of making them sleep on the schedule you think is necessary.
>
> You're creating staying up as a really cool desirable thing. If you
> were to let them stay up they'd want to stay up later and later and
> all night even because it's this wonderful thing you're handing out
> in rare bits like diamonds.
>
> When kids know they can choose to stay up late any night they want,
> it loses its luster. So if the reason they want to stay up is because
> you're making it into a treat, when they know they can stay up any
> night they want, it's not a big deal.
>
> But *don't* just remove bedtimes for a free for all! It's a recipe
> for disaster. Read in the archives for other ideas.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
"If you want to know your future, look at what you are doing in this
moment." --Tibetan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
almadoing
Am lifting this from Few Questions -- Chores
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
who would barely look up and yell "Door" as I left the room
(forgetting to close the door). Of course, ours was the 'typical'
teen/parent relationship, and this command would get a head toss and
eye roll in response from me, along with a resentful slam of the door.
Another way is to make this an if/then deal. She can eat in
explained. Took me a long time to unpick what was OK conditional and
what wasn't.
Like when is a bribe not a bribe. My breakthrough on that came when
someone (no idea which list) explaining that if you tell your child
we are having the biscuits in the car on the way (or similar) then
they might speed up and get in (as if it were a bribe). But that this
is different from saying you can have biscuits in the car if you are
in within two minutes without whining because, actually, the biscuits
are not conditional on swift whine-free action. They can have them in
the car whatever.
Alison
DS(6) and DS(3)
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>This just sounds so terribly rude to me. Reminds me of my own parents
> If you see her setting a glass down on the counter, just say
> "Dishwasher." If you see her drop her pants, just say "Hamper." >
who would barely look up and yell "Door" as I left the room
(forgetting to close the door). Of course, ours was the 'typical'
teen/parent relationship, and this command would get a head toss and
eye roll in response from me, along with a resentful slam of the door.
Another way is to make this an if/then deal. She can eat in
> her room if she brings the plates out. If she can't remember, shebecause
> needs to eat in the kitchen. That's a hard concept to explain
> it sounds like conventional parenting. It's *not* a rule. Eatingonly
> in the kitchen is *not* a punishment. It's just the deal. It's awill
> "Yes, you can if ..." Let her test her ability periodically. She
> get older and better able to remember.This is something I've seen on other lists that hasn't always been
explained. Took me a long time to unpick what was OK conditional and
what wasn't.
Like when is a bribe not a bribe. My breakthrough on that came when
someone (no idea which list) explaining that if you tell your child
we are having the biscuits in the car on the way (or similar) then
they might speed up and get in (as if it were a bribe). But that this
is different from saying you can have biscuits in the car if you are
in within two minutes without whining because, actually, the biscuits
are not conditional on swift whine-free action. They can have them in
the car whatever.
Alison
DS(6) and DS(3)
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 20, 2009, at 3:04 AM, almadoing wrote:
It's meant to be done in the way you might remind your husband with
whom you do want to maintain a good relationship.
I shouldn't have said "just". It's one suggestion. There are other
techniques in:
How to Talk to Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
http://tinyurl.com/2zx2mf
But the goal shouldn't be to change the kids or turn them into
extensions of the parent to do what the parent wants. The goal is to
create a pleasant environment where they want to help. If someone
finds something harsh or the kids find something harsh, then don't do
it! It won't be a pleasant environment.
Trust that kids don't want to make our lives more difficult. They
aren't dropping clothes all over the place because they don't care
about us. They just aren't aware yet or so focused on other things
that they can't see what's going on.
And the if/then deals should be reserved for important things to
prevent damage or rudeness. If you live in a 4000 sq ft house packed
to the gills where plates will disappear into a black hole or in the
south where bugs are waiting for a dropped crumb missing plates will
be big deal.
If if/thens are over used they'll just be control. You want to be
able to use them when the kids want to stay up late without the
parents. "You can stay up *if* you don't wake us." That's courtesy.
But daily "You can play video games if you clean up the room after,"
is just trying to control the kids into keeping the house to mom's
standards.
Joyce
>>It's not meant to be said in your parents voice ;-)
>> If you see her setting a glass down on the counter, just say
>> "Dishwasher." If you see her drop her pants, just say "Hamper." >
>
>
> This just sounds so terribly rude to me. Reminds me of my own parents
> who would barely look up and yell "Door" as I left the room
> (forgetting to close the door).
It's meant to be done in the way you might remind your husband with
whom you do want to maintain a good relationship.
I shouldn't have said "just". It's one suggestion. There are other
techniques in:
How to Talk to Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
http://tinyurl.com/2zx2mf
But the goal shouldn't be to change the kids or turn them into
extensions of the parent to do what the parent wants. The goal is to
create a pleasant environment where they want to help. If someone
finds something harsh or the kids find something harsh, then don't do
it! It won't be a pleasant environment.
Trust that kids don't want to make our lives more difficult. They
aren't dropping clothes all over the place because they don't care
about us. They just aren't aware yet or so focused on other things
that they can't see what's going on.
> Like when is a bribe not a bribe. My breakthrough on that came whenGood distinction.
> someone (no idea which list) explaining that if you tell your child
> we are having the biscuits in the car on the way (or similar) then
> they might speed up and get in (as if it were a bribe). But that this
> is different from saying you can have biscuits in the car if you are
> in within two minutes without whining because, actually, the biscuits
> are not conditional on swift whine-free action. They can have them in
> the car whatever.
And the if/then deals should be reserved for important things to
prevent damage or rudeness. If you live in a 4000 sq ft house packed
to the gills where plates will disappear into a black hole or in the
south where bugs are waiting for a dropped crumb missing plates will
be big deal.
If if/thens are over used they'll just be control. You want to be
able to use them when the kids want to stay up late without the
parents. "You can stay up *if* you don't wake us." That's courtesy.
But daily "You can play video games if you clean up the room after,"
is just trying to control the kids into keeping the house to mom's
standards.
Joyce
hbmccarty
I have been thinking about this- what might look like a bribe from the
outside seems to me like offering options for happiness for everyone. I
will often offer a shopping trips to my daughter when my son has an
activity in town so that she also has something to look forward to -
even if it is just $2 to spend at the craft store. Hey, I will do that
for myself- if I am not so excited about a trip to town I will get a cup
of coffee or a new book at the library to make it more fun for myself-
and expand everyone's happiness. It is all in how you offer.
I think many things about the RU lifestyle can look like something else
from the outside and can be judged- what is not seen is the joy and love
and connection, and freedom.
Heather (in NY)
almadoing wrote:
outside seems to me like offering options for happiness for everyone. I
will often offer a shopping trips to my daughter when my son has an
activity in town so that she also has something to look forward to -
even if it is just $2 to spend at the craft store. Hey, I will do that
for myself- if I am not so excited about a trip to town I will get a cup
of coffee or a new book at the library to make it more fun for myself-
and expand everyone's happiness. It is all in how you offer.
I think many things about the RU lifestyle can look like something else
from the outside and can be judged- what is not seen is the joy and love
and connection, and freedom.
Heather (in NY)
almadoing wrote:
>
>
>
> Like when is a bribe not a bribe. My breakthrough on that came when
> someone (no idea which list) explaining that if you tell your child
> we are having the biscuits in the car on the way (or similar) then
> they might speed up and get in (as if it were a bribe). But that this
> is different from saying you can have biscuits in the car if you are
> in within two minutes without whining because, actually, the biscuits
> are not conditional on swift whine-free action. They can have them in
> the car whatever.
>
> Alison
> DS(6) and DS(3)
>
>
Debra Rossing
> I think many things about the RU lifestyle can look like somethingelse from the outside and can be judged- what is not seen is the joy and
love
and connection, and freedom.
Yup, especially maybe, when it looks a lot like 'school' - some kids
(I'm one of them) really LIKE workbooks, the print, the empty spaces to
fill in, etc. Even now that I'm well past "school age" (my 30th high
school reunion is this year!), I was at a training session for something
a couple weeks ago and I made sure to fill in all the spaces in the
workbook with the proper answer (plus my own notes on the
question/related information as well). DS sitting at the table with a
penmanship workbook at age 7 would have "looked" like he was doing
school work. Reality was that HE requested that material because he
wanted to be able to write his name in cursive the way he had seen me do
it when signing checks. It lasted just exactly as long as he was
interested (about half an hour maybe) and it's been tucked on a shelf
since, in case he ever wants it again.
Deb R
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
I'm not Joyce. But ain't she a gem?
I'll recommend Joyce's website: www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
Also Sandra's site: www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
Must Have Books:
If you can read all of John Holt, in order, you can see how *he* changes over time and how radical he gets at the end.
Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life? is worth it's weight in gold. A 'Must Have' on every unschooler's bookshelf.
In a separate email, I will include what I send to new unschoolers in SC who request a reading list.
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen James <semajrak@...>
Joyce, I find your answers are to these questions very enlightening. Can
you recommend any reading material on the topic of radical unschooling? My
son is 6 and we are homeschooling. I consider that we give him a lot of
room to be, but I know we hold on to a fair number of prescribed ways of
being that we find difficult to shake. Thanks again for your thoughtful and
insightful responses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'll recommend Joyce's website: www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
Also Sandra's site: www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
Must Have Books:
If you can read all of John Holt, in order, you can see how *he* changes over time and how radical he gets at the end.
Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life? is worth it's weight in gold. A 'Must Have' on every unschooler's bookshelf.
In a separate email, I will include what I send to new unschoolers in SC who request a reading list.
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen James <semajrak@...>
Joyce, I find your answers are to these questions very enlightening. Can
you recommend any reading material on the topic of radical unschooling? My
son is 6 and we are homeschooling. I consider that we give him a lot of
room to be, but I know we hold on to a fair number of prescribed ways of
being that we find difficult to shake. Thanks again for your thoughtful and
insightful responses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
Is there a place I can find the chronological order of his book? I have read
many but in no conscious order. In fact several I read 20 years ago as a
teen.
Faith
many but in no conscious order. In fact several I read 20 years ago as a
teen.
Faith
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
>
> If you can read all of John Holt, in order, you can see how *he* changes
> over time and how radical he gets at the end.
>
>
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
carenkh
This is chronological:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holt_(educator)#Bibliography
Caren
--- In [email protected], "Faith Void"
<littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Holt_(educator)#Bibliography
Caren
--- In [email protected], "Faith Void"
<littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
>
> Is there a place I can find the chronological order of his book?
Betj
Kelly I keep wondering where you are in SC as I'm in the Irmo area of Columbia.
Beth
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:38:27
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Reading Material Was:Few Questions
I'm not Joyce. But ain't she a gem?
I'll recommend Joyce's website: www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
Also Sandra's site: www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
Must Have Books:
If you can read all of John Holt, in order, you can see how *he* changes over time and how radical he gets at the end.
Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life? is worth it's weight in gold. A 'Must Have' on every unschooler's bookshelf.
In a separate email, I will include what I send to new unschoolers in SC who request a reading list.
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen James <semajrak@...>
Joyce, I find your answers are to these questions very enlightening. Can
you recommend any reading material on the topic of radical unschooling? My
son is 6 and we are homeschooling. I consider that we give him a lot of
room to be, but I know we hold on to a fair number of prescribed ways of
being that we find difficult to shake. Thanks again for your thoughtful and
insightful responses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Beth
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:38:27
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Reading Material Was:Few Questions
I'm not Joyce. But ain't she a gem?
I'll recommend Joyce's website: www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
Also Sandra's site: www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
Must Have Books:
If you can read all of John Holt, in order, you can see how *he* changes over time and how radical he gets at the end.
Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life? is worth it's weight in gold. A 'Must Have' on every unschooler's bookshelf.
In a separate email, I will include what I send to new unschoolers in SC who request a reading list.
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: Karen James <semajrak@...>
Joyce, I find your answers are to these questions very enlightening. Can
you recommend any reading material on the topic of radical unschooling? My
son is 6 and we are homeschooling. I consider that we give him a lot of
room to be, but I know we hold on to a fair number of prescribed ways of
being that we find difficult to shake. Thanks again for your thoughtful and
insightful responses.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
Out Garner's Ferry Road, near Hopkins (SE side of Columbia).
We have a nice group of unschooling families in the midlands, and we have family nights, Moms' Nights Out, and weekly pool days at my house when it warms up.
Get in touch with me off-list. We can talk. 803 237 4948 cell 803 776 4849 home
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Betj <bkind28@...>
Kelly I keep wondering where you are in SC as I'm in the Irmo area of Columbia.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have a nice group of unschooling families in the midlands, and we have family nights, Moms' Nights Out, and weekly pool days at my house when it warms up.
Get in touch with me off-list. We can talk. 803 237 4948 cell 803 776 4849 home
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Betj <bkind28@...>
Kelly I keep wondering where you are in SC as I'm in the Irmo area of Columbia.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Krest
Oh, flashback. I lived in the Rosewood area for 6 years. Loved the Thai restaurant in the Wal-Mart shopping Center on Garner's Ferry Rd, best Tofu Pad Thai and Cashew Tofu ever.
Robin Krest
Independent Future Director and Trainer with The Pampered Chef
727.823.7246
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/RobinKrest
-- Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
Out Garner's Ferry Road, near Hopkins (SE side of Columbia).
We have a nice group of unschooling families in the midlands, and we have family nights, Moms' Nights Out, and weekly pool days at my house when it warms up.
Get in touch with me off-list. We can talk. 803 237 4948 cell  803 776 4849 home
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Betj <bkind28@...>
Kelly I keep wondering where you are in SC as I'm in the Irmo area of Columbia.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
____________________________________________________________
Power up with a cell phone booster and never worry about weak signals again. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3K9L8DA6foGRs1Bt6bF8LPfITSt29MzGGXayqTjlpTVfOv1/
Robin Krest
Independent Future Director and Trainer with The Pampered Chef
727.823.7246
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/RobinKrest
-- Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
Out Garner's Ferry Road, near Hopkins (SE side of Columbia).
We have a nice group of unschooling families in the midlands, and we have family nights, Moms' Nights Out, and weekly pool days at my house when it warms up.
Get in touch with me off-list. We can talk. 803 237 4948 cell  803 776 4849 home
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Betj <bkind28@...>
Kelly I keep wondering where you are in SC as I'm in the Irmo area of Columbia.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
____________________________________________________________
Power up with a cell phone booster and never worry about weak signals again. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3K9L8DA6foGRs1Bt6bF8LPfITSt29MzGGXayqTjlpTVfOv1/
Karen James
Great, thanks so much, Kelly. I appreciate your suggestions.
Karen.
Karen.
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 3:38 PM, Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
>
> I'm not Joyce. But ain't she a gem?
>
> I'll recommend Joyce's website: www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
>
> Also Sandra's site: www.sandradodd.com/unschooling
>
> Must Have Books:
>
> If you can read all of John Holt, in order, you can see how *he* changes
> over time and how radical he gets at the end.
>
> Rue Kream's Parenting a Free Child, An Unschooled Life? is worth it's
> weight in gold. A 'Must Have' on every unschooler's bookshelf.
>
> In a separate email, I will include what I send to new unschoolers in SC
> who request a reading list.
>
> ~Kelly
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Karen James <semajrak@... <semajrak%40gmail.com>>
>
> Joyce, I find your answers are to these questions very enlightening. Can
> you recommend any reading material on the topic of radical unschooling? My
> son is 6 and we are homeschooling. I consider that we give him a lot of
> room to be, but I know we hold on to a fair number of prescribed ways of
> being that we find difficult to shake. Thanks again for your thoughtful and
> insightful responses.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
--
"If you want to know your future, look at what you are doing in this
moment." --Tibetan
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betj
My BF lived in SE for years and had a business on that side but I've only lived in Irmo and St. Andrews. Well in Columbia!
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Robin Krest" <rlkrest@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:50:28
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Reading Material Was:Few Questions
Oh, flashback. I lived in the Rosewood area for 6 years. Loved the Thai restaurant in the Wal-Mart shopping Center on Garner's Ferry Rd, best Tofu Pad Thai and Cashew Tofu ever.
Robin Krest
Independent Future Director and Trainer with The Pampered Chef
727.823.7246
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/RobinKrest
-- Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
Out Garner's Ferry Road, near Hopkins (SE side of Columbia).
We have a nice group of unschooling families in the midlands, and we have family nights, Moms' Nights Out, and weekly pool days at my house when it warms up.
Get in touch with me off-list. We can talk. 803 237 4948 cell ��803 776 4849 home
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Betj <bkind28@...>
Kelly I keep wondering where you are in SC as I'm in the Irmo area of Columbia.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
____________________________________________________________
Power up with a cell phone booster and never worry about weak signals again. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3K9L8DA6foGRs1Bt6bF8LPfITSt29MzGGXayqTjlpTVfOv1/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: "Robin Krest" <rlkrest@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 00:50:28
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Reading Material Was:Few Questions
Oh, flashback. I lived in the Rosewood area for 6 years. Loved the Thai restaurant in the Wal-Mart shopping Center on Garner's Ferry Rd, best Tofu Pad Thai and Cashew Tofu ever.
Robin Krest
Independent Future Director and Trainer with The Pampered Chef
727.823.7246
http://www.pamperedchef.biz/RobinKrest
-- Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...> wrote:
Out Garner's Ferry Road, near Hopkins (SE side of Columbia).
We have a nice group of unschooling families in the midlands, and we have family nights, Moms' Nights Out, and weekly pool days at my house when it warms up.
Get in touch with me off-list. We can talk. 803 237 4948 cell ��803 776 4849 home
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Betj <bkind28@...>
Kelly I keep wondering where you are in SC as I'm in the Irmo area of Columbia.
Beth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
____________________________________________________________
Power up with a cell phone booster and never worry about weak signals again. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3K9L8DA6foGRs1Bt6bF8LPfITSt29MzGGXayqTjlpTVfOv1/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bekki Kirby
Oh, my!! I never knew! I lived there from 2002 through 2005. First
it was fairly downtown in Columbia, then we moved out to Irmo.
We *might* move back there, if my husband is medically retired... nice
to know there are unschoolers!
Bekki
it was fairly downtown in Columbia, then we moved out to Irmo.
We *might* move back there, if my husband is medically retired... nice
to know there are unschoolers!
Bekki
Kelly Lovejoy
And the first two Live and Learn Unschooling Conferences were in Columbia in 2001 and 2002!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bekki Kirby <junegoddess@...>
Oh, my!! I never knew! I lived there from 2002 through 2005. First
it was fairly downtown in Columbia, then we moved out to Irmo.
We *might* move back there, if my husband is medically retired... nice
to know there are unschoolers!
Bekki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bekki Kirby <junegoddess@...>
Oh, my!! I never knew! I lived there from 2002 through 2005. First
it was fairly downtown in Columbia, then we moved out to Irmo.
We *might* move back there, if my husband is medically retired... nice
to know there are unschoolers!
Bekki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
Bangkok. One of our favorites. <g>
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Krest <rlkrest@...>
Oh, flashback. I lived in the Rosewood area for 6 years. Loved the Thai
restaurant in the Wal-Mart shopping Center on Garner's Ferry Rd, best Tofu Pad
Thai and Cashew Tofu ever.
Robin Krest
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Krest <rlkrest@...>
Oh, flashback. I lived in the Rosewood area for 6 years. Loved the Thai
restaurant in the Wal-Mart shopping Center on Garner's Ferry Rd, best Tofu Pad
Thai and Cashew Tofu ever.
Robin Krest
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Betj
I'm so sorry I missed those! I'm amazed that there are so many people on this list who have lived here. I do say very affectionately that Columbia is a black hole though, once you live here you come back (sometimes again and again!). I was raised mostly here but also Upstate (where my ds was born), the Low Country, NC, VA and TX. I love my ds growing up where I did.
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:20:48
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Columbia, SC WAS:Reading Material
And the first two Live and Learn Unschooling Conferences were in Columbia in 2001 and 2002!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bekki Kirby <junegoddess@...>
Oh, my!! I never knew! I lived there from 2002 through 2005. First
it was fairly downtown in Columbia, then we moved out to Irmo.
We *might* move back there, if my husband is medically retired... nice
to know there are unschoolers!
Bekki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Lovejoy <kbcdlovejo@...>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:20:48
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Columbia, SC WAS:Reading Material
And the first two Live and Learn Unschooling Conferences were in Columbia in 2001 and 2002!
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
http://www.SchoolsOutSupport.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Bekki Kirby <junegoddess@...>
Oh, my!! I never knew! I lived there from 2002 through 2005. First
it was fairly downtown in Columbia, then we moved out to Irmo.
We *might* move back there, if my husband is medically retired... nice
to know there are unschoolers!
Bekki
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brad Holcomb
I worked for Palmetto Health in Columbia for 8 months in 2003-2004, flying
in Mon-Thurs most weeks. The IT office was on Parklane Rd near 277, and I
kept an apartment across the street...I think it was Parklane Apartments,
but I could be wrong.
At that time I was a newlywed with no kids and just beginning to discover
unschooling concepts.
Small world. -=b.
in Mon-Thurs most weeks. The IT office was on Parklane Rd near 277, and I
kept an apartment across the street...I think it was Parklane Apartments,
but I could be wrong.
At that time I was a newlywed with no kids and just beginning to discover
unschooling concepts.
Small world. -=b.
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle Cloud <cloudfamily4@...>
Okay, onto my questions. I've read a few times about "arbitrary" bed times,
time on video games and/or other things and I'm wondering what that means. Do
you mean just throwing a time out there with no thoughts? My son has a bedtime
of 10:00 and my daughter of 10:30. On weekends they have an extra 1/2 an hour.
Granted, this is a hold-over from the schooling days, so it could possibly be
changed. We sometimes let our kids have what we call "movie nights" or we let
them stay up as late as they want. I don't understand what can be done at 3
a.m. that can't be done a 10 a.m., but I digress. My son is always asking "can
we stay up late tonight?" and I honestly get tired of that question. Kids need
their rest, so I don't want to let them stay up all night - where's the balance?
An "arbitrary bedtime" is when the parent decides that the child must be in bed at a certain time. It doesn't take into consideration when the child is tired---it just *is*.
You have arbitrary bedtimes. The time the children are expected to be in bed is under *your* control.
I agree that children need their rest. So do adults! But it works better for *each* body to learn to detect *when* its tired and in need of sleep. When someone else makes those decisions *for* us, we eventually can't *feel* when we're tired.
Your "I don't understand what can be do
ne at 3 a.m. that can't be done a 10 a.m." sounds as if it's right out of your parent's mouth. <g> Are you just regurgitating, or have you actually *thought* about it?
I'm up now, at 5:00 am. I went to bed at 9:00 because I was tired. I have a house full of company, but I was too tired to stay up any later. Unfortunately, I awoke at 1:30, watched TV until 4:00, went back to bed and tried to go back to sleep until 4:30---and now I'm UP and writing to you. <g>
I believe that a big part of my sleep issues are because of my VERY strict bedtimes as a child. I feel that I'm getting over them (that's why I *chose* to go to bed at 9:00), but I still struggle with being IN bed and not sleeping. My parents also believed that children need rest and that parents need "adult time"---so I was sent to bed at 7:00 as a toddler, 7:30 as a first grader, 8:00 as a fourth grader, and 9:00 as a sixth grader. If I took an our nap in the afternoon, I was allowed to stay up one half hour later at night. Two hour nap? An hour later. By the time I was 13 or so, they couldn't control that, and I would stay up until 2:00,3:00, even 5:00 reading, but I was deliriously tired the whole next day.
To me, bed is STILL a place to stare at the ceiling until exhausted. I just can't DO that any more, so I just get up and do *something* until I'm exhausted enough to sleep.
Frankly, it's just not healthy.
My younger chil
d (almost 13) doesn't have that hanging over his head. (Cameron (21 toDAY!) does: unthinkingly,we imposed the same bedtime schedule on him that *I* had as a child! Ugh!) Duncan truly sleeps when tired, awakes when refreshed. He doesn't struggle with sleep at ALL. He KNOWS his body's cues. Very, very cool. NOT that he doesn't push it---sometimes he's having just too much fun to go to sleep, but he knows to alter a few things to "realign" himself after the excitement's over.
Many schooled children have to get up as early as 6:00am, so I get why "earlier to bed" would be helpful---they DO need rest, and they aren't allowed to sleep in or to nap when tired. But my unschooled children can sleep as long as they need to in the morning, so they get PLENTY of rest. Plus, mine can nap at any time.
Tweens/teens often go through a biological switch, when their bodies refuse to sleep when it's dark. They just *can't* get to sleep until daylight. I wonder whether that's a survival thang left over from cave times: they were the night guards. <g> And I believe that's why schooled teens get *such* a bad rap: they are truly EXHAUSTED because school interferes with their natural sleep schedule, so they are terribly sleep-deprived. If *we* kept their schedule, we'd be grumpy too!
So much better to let them discover their bodies' natural rhythms! Not only will they be happier children, they'll be happier adults! <g>
I'll address the other concerns in different emails.
=0
A~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Michelle Cloud <cloudfamily4@...>
Okay, onto my questions. I've read a few times about "arbitrary" bed times,
time on video games and/or other things and I'm wondering what that means. Do
you mean just throwing a time out there with no thoughts? My son has a bedtime
of 10:00 and my daughter of 10:30. On weekends they have an extra 1/2 an hour.
Granted, this is a hold-over from the schooling days, so it could possibly be
changed. We sometimes let our kids have what we call "movie nights" or we let
them stay up as late as they want. I don't understand what can be done at 3
a.m. that can't be done a 10 a.m., but I digress. My son is always asking "can
we stay up late tonight?" and I honestly get tired of that question. Kids need
their rest, so I don't want to let them stay up all night - where's the balance?
An "arbitrary bedtime" is when the parent decides that the child must be in bed at a certain time. It doesn't take into consideration when the child is tired---it just *is*.
You have arbitrary bedtimes. The time the children are expected to be in bed is under *your* control.
I agree that children need their rest. So do adults! But it works better for *each* body to learn to detect *when* its tired and in need of sleep. When someone else makes those decisions *for* us, we eventually can't *feel* when we're tired.
Your "I don't understand what can be do
ne at 3 a.m. that can't be done a 10 a.m." sounds as if it's right out of your parent's mouth. <g> Are you just regurgitating, or have you actually *thought* about it?
I'm up now, at 5:00 am. I went to bed at 9:00 because I was tired. I have a house full of company, but I was too tired to stay up any later. Unfortunately, I awoke at 1:30, watched TV until 4:00, went back to bed and tried to go back to sleep until 4:30---and now I'm UP and writing to you. <g>
I believe that a big part of my sleep issues are because of my VERY strict bedtimes as a child. I feel that I'm getting over them (that's why I *chose* to go to bed at 9:00), but I still struggle with being IN bed and not sleeping. My parents also believed that children need rest and that parents need "adult time"---so I was sent to bed at 7:00 as a toddler, 7:30 as a first grader, 8:00 as a fourth grader, and 9:00 as a sixth grader. If I took an our nap in the afternoon, I was allowed to stay up one half hour later at night. Two hour nap? An hour later. By the time I was 13 or so, they couldn't control that, and I would stay up until 2:00,3:00, even 5:00 reading, but I was deliriously tired the whole next day.
To me, bed is STILL a place to stare at the ceiling until exhausted. I just can't DO that any more, so I just get up and do *something* until I'm exhausted enough to sleep.
Frankly, it's just not healthy.
My younger chil
d (almost 13) doesn't have that hanging over his head. (Cameron (21 toDAY!) does: unthinkingly,we imposed the same bedtime schedule on him that *I* had as a child! Ugh!) Duncan truly sleeps when tired, awakes when refreshed. He doesn't struggle with sleep at ALL. He KNOWS his body's cues. Very, very cool. NOT that he doesn't push it---sometimes he's having just too much fun to go to sleep, but he knows to alter a few things to "realign" himself after the excitement's over.
Many schooled children have to get up as early as 6:00am, so I get why "earlier to bed" would be helpful---they DO need rest, and they aren't allowed to sleep in or to nap when tired. But my unschooled children can sleep as long as they need to in the morning, so they get PLENTY of rest. Plus, mine can nap at any time.
Tweens/teens often go through a biological switch, when their bodies refuse to sleep when it's dark. They just *can't* get to sleep until daylight. I wonder whether that's a survival thang left over from cave times: they were the night guards. <g> And I believe that's why schooled teens get *such* a bad rap: they are truly EXHAUSTED because school interferes with their natural sleep schedule, so they are terribly sleep-deprived. If *we* kept their schedule, we'd be grumpy too!
So much better to let them discover their bodies' natural rhythms! Not only will they be happier children, they'll be happier adults! <g>
I'll address the other concerns in different emails.
=0
A~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle Cloud <cloudfamily4@...>
Video games. I've been reading the WoW thread with interest. I do have to say
that my viewpoint on video games has changed just since being on this list for a
few days. I was one of those moms that hated video games. We have a 360, Wii,
2 DSs and 2 PSPs. My kids were allowed to play only on the weekends and only if
they got their schoolwork and chores done during the week. However, after
reading quite a few of these posts, I've done a complete 180. My son wants to
be a video game designer and it's like a lightbulb went off when I read
something about pursuing what they're passionate in and helping them develop the
skills that they want to pursue. I was almost like "Duh!" if he wants to do
that for a living he needs to see how the various engines work, etc. So now,
hubby and I are trying to decide, again, where the balance is. On the weekends,
he literally plays from the moment he wakes up until he goes to bed (unless we'd
like to watch something on tv - the tv in the living room is the only one with
the game systems on it). They also have iPods that they download various
television shows on (Mythbusters, Mystery Diagnosis). I'm guessing that he
probably plays so much on the weekends because that is the only time he gets to.
He has actually said that he wants to get in as much time as he can on the
weekends because its (t
o him) such a short time. So, we'd like to give him more
access, but how much?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It IS A short time!!!
What's your passion?
If your husband limited *you* the way your children are limited, how would you feel? Wouldn't you *live* for the weekends? Wouldn't you plan your week so that on Saturdays you would do *only* that from sun-up to sun-down? Would you want to quit your passion to go to something with your husband? Or would you choose to ignore him (and whatever cool outing he had planned) because your time was soooo limited that you had to FILL Saturday with your passion because you wouldn't get that chance for a whole WEEK?
How much access would be enough?
What would you do if your time were ...again...ARBITRARILY limited?
There are *natural* limits: I'm a freakishly passionate gardener. Winter is down-time, of course, but I'm still planning, reading seed catalogues, building new beds, dreaming. <g> But I'm not actually *out* there, planting or picking. The *natural* limit is that it's too cold right now. I'm also naturally limited in gardening, even in the summer, by darkness and trips out of town and playing with my children and painting the deck and.... Other things may stop me from gardening, but there's no one lording over me, saying that I've had enough.
Duncan has NO Limits with gaming. There are days when he's playing from dawn 'til dusk. But just this week he got a new deck of Magic,
the Gathering cards, and didn't play a game all day. He was busy learning the rules and comparing cards and looking up info on the computer. We've had friends in from Rhode Island this week: they've been playing and going for walks, and listening to music. We're at the water park next week: he'll have his gaming computer with him, but he'll be running around the water park with friends all week---and probably too busy to play much.
The deal is: he can CHOOSE whether to play or not because he *can*. If I limited his playing to weekends, I could guarantee that, on weekends, that's ALL he'd do.
Parents are convinced that their children are addicted to gaming because they allow the children to game only on the weekends, and---surprise!---the children play non-stop on weekends---to the exclusion of all else. DUH!
If allowed free rein, they *will* choose to do other things. But if controlled, they NEED to get in every single *second* allowed them---and sneak in more when they can. So it *looks* like an "addiction." But, really, the parents have just set up this situation by limiting them too harshly.
I'm glad you've seen the benefits of letting him have more time for his passions. I'll warn you: if you decide to allow more time, he'll take every single MINUTE! It will probably look like he's "addicted." Because he's been limited, he'll probably not quite trust that you're serious, so he'll be *hoarding* his gaming time, thinking you'll take it away again. But if20you're patient, he'll level back out and want to do other things too. Even on Saturdays. <G>
Oh---I'd also consider a second TV. It'll make life easier! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Michelle Cloud <cloudfamily4@...>
Video games. I've been reading the WoW thread with interest. I do have to say
that my viewpoint on video games has changed just since being on this list for a
few days. I was one of those moms that hated video games. We have a 360, Wii,
2 DSs and 2 PSPs. My kids were allowed to play only on the weekends and only if
they got their schoolwork and chores done during the week. However, after
reading quite a few of these posts, I've done a complete 180. My son wants to
be a video game designer and it's like a lightbulb went off when I read
something about pursuing what they're passionate in and helping them develop the
skills that they want to pursue. I was almost like "Duh!" if he wants to do
that for a living he needs to see how the various engines work, etc. So now,
hubby and I are trying to decide, again, where the balance is. On the weekends,
he literally plays from the moment he wakes up until he goes to bed (unless we'd
like to watch something on tv - the tv in the living room is the only one with
the game systems on it). They also have iPods that they download various
television shows on (Mythbusters, Mystery Diagnosis). I'm guessing that he
probably plays so much on the weekends because that is the only time he gets to.
He has actually said that he wants to get in as much time as he can on the
weekends because its (t
o him) such a short time. So, we'd like to give him more
access, but how much?
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It IS A short time!!!
What's your passion?
If your husband limited *you* the way your children are limited, how would you feel? Wouldn't you *live* for the weekends? Wouldn't you plan your week so that on Saturdays you would do *only* that from sun-up to sun-down? Would you want to quit your passion to go to something with your husband? Or would you choose to ignore him (and whatever cool outing he had planned) because your time was soooo limited that you had to FILL Saturday with your passion because you wouldn't get that chance for a whole WEEK?
How much access would be enough?
What would you do if your time were ...again...ARBITRARILY limited?
There are *natural* limits: I'm a freakishly passionate gardener. Winter is down-time, of course, but I'm still planning, reading seed catalogues, building new beds, dreaming. <g> But I'm not actually *out* there, planting or picking. The *natural* limit is that it's too cold right now. I'm also naturally limited in gardening, even in the summer, by darkness and trips out of town and playing with my children and painting the deck and.... Other things may stop me from gardening, but there's no one lording over me, saying that I've had enough.
Duncan has NO Limits with gaming. There are days when he's playing from dawn 'til dusk. But just this week he got a new deck of Magic,
the Gathering cards, and didn't play a game all day. He was busy learning the rules and comparing cards and looking up info on the computer. We've had friends in from Rhode Island this week: they've been playing and going for walks, and listening to music. We're at the water park next week: he'll have his gaming computer with him, but he'll be running around the water park with friends all week---and probably too busy to play much.
The deal is: he can CHOOSE whether to play or not because he *can*. If I limited his playing to weekends, I could guarantee that, on weekends, that's ALL he'd do.
Parents are convinced that their children are addicted to gaming because they allow the children to game only on the weekends, and---surprise!---the children play non-stop on weekends---to the exclusion of all else. DUH!
If allowed free rein, they *will* choose to do other things. But if controlled, they NEED to get in every single *second* allowed them---and sneak in more when they can. So it *looks* like an "addiction." But, really, the parents have just set up this situation by limiting them too harshly.
I'm glad you've seen the benefits of letting him have more time for his passions. I'll warn you: if you decide to allow more time, he'll take every single MINUTE! It will probably look like he's "addicted." Because he's been limited, he'll probably not quite trust that you're serious, so he'll be *hoarding* his gaming time, thinking you'll take it away again. But if20you're patient, he'll level back out and want to do other things too. Even on Saturdays. <G>
Oh---I'd also consider a second TV. It'll make life easier! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
-----Original Message-----
From: Michelle Cloud <cloudfamily4@...>
Chores. I've only been on here a few days so I've not read anything about
chores. I have some medical issues and some days I just can not do a lot.
Right now we have a chore list but after a while of doing the same chores they
get bored. I can understand. They've also come to realize that there are some
things that they just don't like doing as far as chores go. How do you handle
chores? A list? Let them do what they want? My dd - I hate to say it - but
she is quite lazy and will walk over a pile of dirty clothes rather than put it
in the hamper or, God forbid, throw it in the washing machine. We told her a
year or so back that we would not tell her how to keep her room. If she chose
to clean it, fine, if not, fine. The only stipulation we put on that is she
couldn't leave food/dishes (bugs) in the room and we'd like her to pick up her
laundry and put it in the laundry room because after a while it starts to smell.
Other than that we've got various chores from folding a load of laundry to
emptying the dishwasher, etc. How do you handle chores?
****************************
If you do a site search for "chores," you'll have pages and pages to read. It's a VERY common question here. You can also look on Joyce's and Sandra's sites for even more on chores. www.sandradodd.com and www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
The first thi
ng I'd suggest is to not call your daughter "lazy"---here or anywhere else. She's only 11. She doesn't have the same need for neatness that you do. It'll come...when she's ready----and usually as *soon* as you quit worrying about it!
We don't have chores. If something needs to be done, someone does it. More than likely, it falls on me, my husband, or my older son. I really don't expect much in the way of housekeeping from my 12 year old. But if I ask him to do something, he usually does it. But it's a *question*---and he doesn't have to say yes. But I rarely hear "no."
If something bothers one of us, *that* person cleans it up. It's never someone else's responsibility. I feel we model responsibility by being responsible. *I* am responsible for my house, my children, my pets, my car, my garden. The more *I* care for those things, the more my children see how important it is to care for the things you love.
Too many people won't even clean up their own trash because they figure someone else will do it. "It's not their job." The idea that children must clean up their own messes is what I believe causes that. I think we should clean up because we *care*---not because it's someone else's mess. So I lovingly clean up. A lot. <g> The outcome of that is that my boys *ALSO* lovingly clean up. A lot. Not because we have a chore list or because I make them, but because they want to care for our environment, they like clean clothes, they love our pets
.
As for who does what around here: we all have things we prefer to do and things we're not wild about. I like loading the dishwasher, but I hate to unload and put away. Cam loves to put away, but would rather wash by hand than load the washer. <g> We team up. <g> Cameron's my recycle nut: he chooses to take the trash out because he knows he'll do a better job of sorting recyclables than Ben or I will. Everyone likes to cook. Nobody does windows. <BWG> I pay someone now (ever other week) to scrub bathrooms, clean the kitchen, dust, vacuum, and mop. I LOVE not having to worry about that any more.
I've cleaned the boys' rooms for years. Now I never clean Cam's room---and it's always spotless. I still clean Dunc's room for him. He LOVES when it's neat and organized. He's VERY grateful when he comes home to a clean room---it's so much more peaceful, he says. Whenever the den or kitchen is overwhelming, someone starts picking up and wiping down; others join in.
I get the health issues. But what would you do if you had no children? You'd still have laundry to do, toilets to scrub, and supper to prepare. Dishes don't clean themselves. Carpets still need vacuuming. Having children doesn't man getting slave labor. <G> Who would be cleaning your house if you had no children? OR---what if your children were disabled in some way and couldn't do the work for you? Who would be caring for the house AND them then?
We do what needs to be done. We=2
0can choose to whine about how hard it is or about how it's always messy, but what's that modeling? I want my boys to see me lovingly and joyfully caring for them. I hope they'll do the same for their kids. They're *already* doing the same for me!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: Michelle Cloud <cloudfamily4@...>
Chores. I've only been on here a few days so I've not read anything about
chores. I have some medical issues and some days I just can not do a lot.
Right now we have a chore list but after a while of doing the same chores they
get bored. I can understand. They've also come to realize that there are some
things that they just don't like doing as far as chores go. How do you handle
chores? A list? Let them do what they want? My dd - I hate to say it - but
she is quite lazy and will walk over a pile of dirty clothes rather than put it
in the hamper or, God forbid, throw it in the washing machine. We told her a
year or so back that we would not tell her how to keep her room. If she chose
to clean it, fine, if not, fine. The only stipulation we put on that is she
couldn't leave food/dishes (bugs) in the room and we'd like her to pick up her
laundry and put it in the laundry room because after a while it starts to smell.
Other than that we've got various chores from folding a load of laundry to
emptying the dishwasher, etc. How do you handle chores?
****************************
If you do a site search for "chores," you'll have pages and pages to read. It's a VERY common question here. You can also look on Joyce's and Sandra's sites for even more on chores. www.sandradodd.com and www.joyfullyrejoycing.com
The first thi
ng I'd suggest is to not call your daughter "lazy"---here or anywhere else. She's only 11. She doesn't have the same need for neatness that you do. It'll come...when she's ready----and usually as *soon* as you quit worrying about it!
We don't have chores. If something needs to be done, someone does it. More than likely, it falls on me, my husband, or my older son. I really don't expect much in the way of housekeeping from my 12 year old. But if I ask him to do something, he usually does it. But it's a *question*---and he doesn't have to say yes. But I rarely hear "no."
If something bothers one of us, *that* person cleans it up. It's never someone else's responsibility. I feel we model responsibility by being responsible. *I* am responsible for my house, my children, my pets, my car, my garden. The more *I* care for those things, the more my children see how important it is to care for the things you love.
Too many people won't even clean up their own trash because they figure someone else will do it. "It's not their job." The idea that children must clean up their own messes is what I believe causes that. I think we should clean up because we *care*---not because it's someone else's mess. So I lovingly clean up. A lot. <g> The outcome of that is that my boys *ALSO* lovingly clean up. A lot. Not because we have a chore list or because I make them, but because they want to care for our environment, they like clean clothes, they love our pets
.
As for who does what around here: we all have things we prefer to do and things we're not wild about. I like loading the dishwasher, but I hate to unload and put away. Cam loves to put away, but would rather wash by hand than load the washer. <g> We team up. <g> Cameron's my recycle nut: he chooses to take the trash out because he knows he'll do a better job of sorting recyclables than Ben or I will. Everyone likes to cook. Nobody does windows. <BWG> I pay someone now (ever other week) to scrub bathrooms, clean the kitchen, dust, vacuum, and mop. I LOVE not having to worry about that any more.
I've cleaned the boys' rooms for years. Now I never clean Cam's room---and it's always spotless. I still clean Dunc's room for him. He LOVES when it's neat and organized. He's VERY grateful when he comes home to a clean room---it's so much more peaceful, he says. Whenever the den or kitchen is overwhelming, someone starts picking up and wiping down; others join in.
I get the health issues. But what would you do if you had no children? You'd still have laundry to do, toilets to scrub, and supper to prepare. Dishes don't clean themselves. Carpets still need vacuuming. Having children doesn't man getting slave labor. <G> Who would be cleaning your house if you had no children? OR---what if your children were disabled in some way and couldn't do the work for you? Who would be caring for the house AND them then?
We do what needs to be done. We=2
0can choose to whine about how hard it is or about how it's always messy, but what's that modeling? I want my boys to see me lovingly and joyfully caring for them. I hope they'll do the same for their kids. They're *already* doing the same for me!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>Happy Birthday to Cameron!!!
> My younger chil
> d (almost 13) doesn't have that hanging over his head. (Cameron (21
> toDAY!)
> does: unthinkingly,we imposed the same bedtime schedule on him thatExactly. My all-night-owl 13-year-old started working on her sleeping
> *I* had as a child! Ugh!) Duncan truly sleeps when tired, awakes
> when refreshed. He doesn't struggle with sleep at ALL. He KNOWS his
> body's cues. Very, very cool. NOT that he doesn't push it---
> sometimes he's having just too much fun to go to sleep, but he knows
> to alter a few things to "realign" himself after the excitement's
> over.
and waking times more than a week ahead of Christmas, so she could go
to sleep before midnight and wake up early for presents. She always
realigns for what she wants to do or is scheduled to do (riding,
traveling, etc.).
>Yup. Sometimes, Michelle will nap and have me wake her up a couple of
> Many schooled children have to get up as early as 6:00am, so I get
> why "earlier to bed" would be helpful---they DO need rest, and they
> aren't allowed to sleep in or to nap when tired. But my unschooled
> children can sleep as long as they need to in the morning, so they
> get PLENTY of rest. Plus, mine can nap at any time.
hours later so she can get on a different schedule or to join her WoW
guild for an instance.
>I wonder about that, too! And sometimes, she'll wake me up to show me
> Tweens/teens often go through a biological switch, when their bodies
> refuse to sleep when it's dark. They just *can't* get to sleep until
> daylight. I wonder whether that's a survival thang left over from
> cave times: they were the night guards. <g>
the beautiful full moon, how the stars are glittering or to listen to
a particular early-morning birdsong. That's pretty cool.
>Yes. And their rhythms can change. Don't think they're doomed to work
> So much better to let them discover their bodies' natural rhythms!
> Not only will they be happier children, they'll be happier adults! <g>
the night shift (unless they want to, of course <g>). Things change
and it's how *we* handle it that can make the difference for our kids.
>Robin B.
Karen
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
someone's body clock to change? For instance, I have this habit of
staying up until about 2am, catching up on all my unschooling emails
etc. I can usually sleep in the next morning because my kids are older
now (6, 8, 12 & 15), although i do sometimes get caught out with
visitors when I'm still in bed or just up and still in my jammies!
Now, I didn't USED to stay up until 2am. It's a habit that's
developed over time because I enjoy the late night quiet hours for my
reading.
The same with my children. They've gradually become habitually later
and later to bed, but it's been a slow change (the two I'm mostly
talking about are 6 & 8), so it's something that I feel could possibly
be helped to change back.
I also wonder how much our apparent "body clocks" are influenced by
the exciting technological possibilities, that can tend to
artificially stimulate our senses. I know for me, that if I wasn't
sitting here on the computer, I'd probably be in bed reading a book,
and I usually find I'm more in touch with my tiredness when I do that.
I'm asking these questions to help me get my head around the whole
sleep thing, because I want to respect my children in this, and I need
to understand it better. I also need to be able to help my husband
understand it better, because he's much more inclined to "put the
children to bed" at a time that he thinks is appropriate, because
children "should be in bed" by a particular time. It's not
necessarily to do with the time on the clock, but he will definitely
make comments such as "It's not normal" for children to be up this
late, or "It's healthier to be asleep by about 10pm so you can sleep
longer in the dark hours & wake up in the sunlight hours" (based on
some reading on health & wellness he's done).
later, even when she has had a really late night. Actually, she
habitually stays up pretty late & gets up before others in the family,
and often seems cranky and tired. Any ideas of how to deal with this
issue?
computers, etc could be considered "artificial reasons" to drive our
children to want to fight sleep. My children are free to play
computer games etc, whenever they choose, yet they still find it hard
to turn them off even if it's quite late at night. I try telling them
that they're welcome to play in the morning, but the lure of the game
or whatever just seems too strong. I offer stories & cuddles etc, but
it just doesn't always work.
older kids are doing "exciting thing" that the younger ones want to
join in on, eg. watching a TV show or playing the Xbox or a computer
game. I do ask them to keep the noise down so I can create an
environment more conducive to sleep, but the younger ones still KNOW
what the older ones are doing and usually want to do it with them.
Anyone else have any relevant experience with larger, mixed age
families sharing one living room area, where there aren't options for
the older kids to be off in a rec room somewhere, or something like
that. When the living space with computers & TV etc are very close to
bedrooms, etc. I'd love to hear some success stories & strategies
that I can try.
mindful of. No one lives in a vacuum, hey, and it's important that we
all respect each other!
Thanks in anticipation of many words of wisdom! : )
Karen Lee
<jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>** Hey, I have a question about this. Do you think it's possible for
> If someone's body is naturally on a different schedule, 10 AM to them
> is like 2 AM to you. Their energy and mental gears are going on a
> different schedule. You might be zippiest at 11 AM and winding down
> at 8 PM. What if your body felt differently. What if you were
> naturally zippy at 8 PM and draggy at 11 AM and your husband dragged
> you around at 11AM to get things done when you were drained and sat
> down for a relaxing evening at 8 PM for reading or TV and you were
> ready to dance?
>
> If you read here long enough, you'll see that body clocks are what
> they are and no amount of external force can change them. People can
> *choose* to adapt *themselves*.
someone's body clock to change? For instance, I have this habit of
staying up until about 2am, catching up on all my unschooling emails
etc. I can usually sleep in the next morning because my kids are older
now (6, 8, 12 & 15), although i do sometimes get caught out with
visitors when I'm still in bed or just up and still in my jammies!
Now, I didn't USED to stay up until 2am. It's a habit that's
developed over time because I enjoy the late night quiet hours for my
reading.
The same with my children. They've gradually become habitually later
and later to bed, but it's been a slow change (the two I'm mostly
talking about are 6 & 8), so it's something that I feel could possibly
be helped to change back.
I also wonder how much our apparent "body clocks" are influenced by
the exciting technological possibilities, that can tend to
artificially stimulate our senses. I know for me, that if I wasn't
sitting here on the computer, I'd probably be in bed reading a book,
and I usually find I'm more in touch with my tiredness when I do that.
I'm asking these questions to help me get my head around the whole
sleep thing, because I want to respect my children in this, and I need
to understand it better. I also need to be able to help my husband
understand it better, because he's much more inclined to "put the
children to bed" at a time that he thinks is appropriate, because
children "should be in bed" by a particular time. It's not
necessarily to do with the time on the clock, but he will definitely
make comments such as "It's not normal" for children to be up this
late, or "It's healthier to be asleep by about 10pm so you can sleep
longer in the dark hours & wake up in the sunlight hours" (based on
some reading on health & wellness he's done).
>*** My 6 year old daughter, in particular, doesn't seem to sleep
> What would happen if they stayed up all night?
>
> They'd sleep later.
>
later, even when she has had a really late night. Actually, she
habitually stays up pretty late & gets up before others in the family,
and often seems cranky and tired. Any ideas of how to deal with this
issue?
>*** This is what I was referring to above. Do you think that TVs
> The goal is to help them figure out what sleepy feels like and help
> them fall asleep when they choose to. To do that you remove the
> obstacles and artificial reasons that are driving them to want to
> fight sleep.
computers, etc could be considered "artificial reasons" to drive our
children to want to fight sleep. My children are free to play
computer games etc, whenever they choose, yet they still find it hard
to turn them off even if it's quite late at night. I try telling them
that they're welcome to play in the morning, but the lure of the game
or whatever just seems too strong. I offer stories & cuddles etc, but
it just doesn't always work.
>*** I love this idea, and yet the problem I have is when my DH or
> *One* way is to wind down the house starting at 8. Lower lights. Do
> quieter things. Get a routine in. Bath. Reading. But don't make sleep
> mandatory. The goal is to wind the house down so others can sleep if
> they want to.
>
older kids are doing "exciting thing" that the younger ones want to
join in on, eg. watching a TV show or playing the Xbox or a computer
game. I do ask them to keep the noise down so I can create an
environment more conducive to sleep, but the younger ones still KNOW
what the older ones are doing and usually want to do it with them.
Anyone else have any relevant experience with larger, mixed age
families sharing one living room area, where there aren't options for
the older kids to be off in a rec room somewhere, or something like
that. When the living space with computers & TV etc are very close to
bedrooms, etc. I'd love to hear some success stories & strategies
that I can try.
> I think the more useful question in terms of creating an*** Yeah, this is one of the issues I think it's important to be
> environment where they can explore freely without balance chaining
> them to a single answer is "How can we balance family life with free
> exploration?" In terms of mindful parenting and unschooling, your
> goal isn't to find their balance for them, but to make the
> environment safe for them to explore in, and help them find options
> that don't trample on the toes of others. Give them the freedom to
> find their own balance.
mindful of. No one lives in a vacuum, hey, and it's important that we
all respect each other!
Thanks in anticipation of many words of wisdom! : )
Karen Lee
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Karen" <gktbdm@...> wrote:
couple hours in either direction. Its a little unsettling for a week
or two, while we rethink our morning and evening strategies.
When I started work, over a year ago, I had to shift my sleep
schedule to accomodate that. Since I was getting up before dawn, I
found I needed an extra hour of sleep not to be groggy the next day.
Now that I'm laid off I'm getting to sleep until dawn again, which
means I actually need less sleep overall. Its weird.
on the "tired" aspect - what can you do to make things a little
easier on her when she's tired? Can you help her find calmer
activities during the day? Work more "down time" into her day
somehow? Tv? Baths? Some other calming activity? If nothing else, be
aware of her tiredness as something to adjust for Not something to be
irritated by, if you see what I mean? It doesn't help her or you to
be annoyed at her tiredness. Helping her find ways to rest during the
day, and ways to *allow* for her tiredness in the day's activities
sets her up to be less cranky and, ultimately have more problem
solving skills for when she *is* cranky.
fighting sleep. I've lived in a commune, in the middle of the woods,
with no tv period and limited computer access. The adults still found
reasons to stay up late - socializing, games, music... and the kids
still found those to be good reasons to want to stay up, too.
I've stayed up much later than my usual knitting, or quilting, or
writing by hand, no less! I've gotten up in the middle of the night
to read. When I was a kid I'd read with a flashlight under the covers
late at night, when I was "supposed" to be asleep. George stays up
late playing music, or working in the shop. He'll get up in the
middle of the night and work. Mo stays up late painting or playing
with legos. Sometimes she'll stay up late reading to her stuffed
toys. Ray will stay up late to socialize. He's been up all night
talking more than once. Those are our passions. Sometimes passions
keep you up late at night. That's a Good Thing.
help us all stay sane. We've used soft music as a way to dull out the
sound of conversation in another room some people like white noise
machines for that. We've rearranged our living area with respect to
the way sound travels. Speakers pointing away from the stairs make a
Big Difference in our lives!
I can't help but wonder, though, given what you wrote, if that's not
really the problem. It doesn't sound like people are being kept awake
so much as are wanting to be included in things they already know are
going on. Its Good that they want to be included! Its not just the
techie toys, it's the conviviality they want. They want to hang out
and have fun with the family Hooray! That's not "normal" in modern,
western culture bc we've created this split between the worlds of
adults and children. It *is* normal in a grander sense in the sense
of how human beings live and learn and relate to one another. Other
families have to *make* time for the family to do things together, to
resist the isolation that comes from our modern lifestyles. Your
family your kids! have found a way to enjoy being a family
together. That's better than good.
(The night I wrote this, btw, my internet connection was balky so I
couldn't send. My dd came to me just as I was saving to ask me to
come look at the moon. So we stayed up late looking at the night sky.)
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> ** Hey, I have a question about this. Do you think it's possiblefor
> someone's body clock to change?Depends what you mean. Mo's sleep cycle periodically shifts by a
couple hours in either direction. Its a little unsettling for a week
or two, while we rethink our morning and evening strategies.
When I started work, over a year ago, I had to shift my sleep
schedule to accomodate that. Since I was getting up before dawn, I
found I needed an extra hour of sleep not to be groggy the next day.
Now that I'm laid off I'm getting to sleep until dawn again, which
means I actually need less sleep overall. Its weird.
> *** My 6 year old daughter, in particular, doesn't seem to sleepfamily,
> later, even when she has had a really late night. Actually, she
> habitually stays up pretty late & gets up before others in the
> and often seems cranky and tired. Any ideas of how to deal withthis
> issue?It all depends on what you mean by "deal with this issue" ;) I'd work
on the "tired" aspect - what can you do to make things a little
easier on her when she's tired? Can you help her find calmer
activities during the day? Work more "down time" into her day
somehow? Tv? Baths? Some other calming activity? If nothing else, be
aware of her tiredness as something to adjust for Not something to be
irritated by, if you see what I mean? It doesn't help her or you to
be annoyed at her tiredness. Helping her find ways to rest during the
day, and ways to *allow* for her tiredness in the day's activities
sets her up to be less cranky and, ultimately have more problem
solving skills for when she *is* cranky.
> Do you think that TVsIt sounds more like the other people in the family are the reason for
> computers, etc could be considered "artificial reasons" to drive our
> children to want to fight sleep.
fighting sleep. I've lived in a commune, in the middle of the woods,
with no tv period and limited computer access. The adults still found
reasons to stay up late - socializing, games, music... and the kids
still found those to be good reasons to want to stay up, too.
I've stayed up much later than my usual knitting, or quilting, or
writing by hand, no less! I've gotten up in the middle of the night
to read. When I was a kid I'd read with a flashlight under the covers
late at night, when I was "supposed" to be asleep. George stays up
late playing music, or working in the shop. He'll get up in the
middle of the night and work. Mo stays up late painting or playing
with legos. Sometimes she'll stay up late reading to her stuffed
toys. Ray will stay up late to socialize. He's been up all night
talking more than once. Those are our passions. Sometimes passions
keep you up late at night. That's a Good Thing.
> Anyone else have any relevant experience with larger, mixed agefor
> families sharing one living room area, where there aren't options
> the older kids to be off in a rec room somewhere, or something liketo
> that. When the living space with computers & TV etc are very close
> bedrooms, etc. I'd love to hear some success stories & strategiesHeadphones are wonderful things. We have a tiny house, and headphones
> that I can try.
help us all stay sane. We've used soft music as a way to dull out the
sound of conversation in another room some people like white noise
machines for that. We've rearranged our living area with respect to
the way sound travels. Speakers pointing away from the stairs make a
Big Difference in our lives!
I can't help but wonder, though, given what you wrote, if that's not
really the problem. It doesn't sound like people are being kept awake
so much as are wanting to be included in things they already know are
going on. Its Good that they want to be included! Its not just the
techie toys, it's the conviviality they want. They want to hang out
and have fun with the family Hooray! That's not "normal" in modern,
western culture bc we've created this split between the worlds of
adults and children. It *is* normal in a grander sense in the sense
of how human beings live and learn and relate to one another. Other
families have to *make* time for the family to do things together, to
resist the isolation that comes from our modern lifestyles. Your
family your kids! have found a way to enjoy being a family
together. That's better than good.
(The night I wrote this, btw, my internet connection was balky so I
couldn't send. My dd came to me just as I was saving to ask me to
come look at the moon. So we stayed up late looking at the night sky.)
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
Karen
Thanks for your reply Meredith. I still have more questions though :)
Regarding the idea of being able to alter apparent "body clocks", the
thing I've noticed is that their preference for going to bed has got
later and later and later (probably coinciding with being "allowed" to
stay up later and later and later lol). And yet at some point we
still ask them to start getting ready for bed and so basically their
freedom does eventually come to an end. Perhaps that is why they keep
pushing the boundary??? I'd love to have the courage to "let them"
stay up without my husband or I actually initiating bedtime, so that
they can experience total exhaustion myself. I wonder if we did that
for a while, whether they'd be more in tune with their own tiredness
and start resisting bed less, but the fear is that they'll just get
used to going to bed later and later, and the cycle will continue?
Also, whilst they can and do sleep in a bit sometimes (e.g. last night
they slept from about 11.30/12.00 til almost 9 this morning) it still
doesn't seem like they're getting enough sleep by the indicators the
next day. It also doesn't always work for them to sleep in for ages,
because we sometimes get visitors about 9am (friends who might drop in
after delivering their kids to school).
Oh, and of course there's always the issue that my husband just isn't
open to the idea of totally free bedtimes. He works shiftwork and I
always emphasise the importance of being quiet in the house when
anyone is asleep, but when he gets home from an evening shift, he
really appreciates a quiet peaceful (kids in bed) house when he gets
home about 11pm, so he can relax. And when he's on an early shift the
next day, he appreciates a bit of peace and quiet before turning in
himself, and he just can't stay up late if he's leaving at 6am. For
him, that peace and quiet definitely equals kids tucked up safely in bed.
I find it hard to know how everyone's needs can be met.
As for the "artificial" stimulus of things like electronic media
keeping us awake later at night, I'm aware of what you talk about, how
anything really can draw us to stay up later than our bodyclocks would
indicate is good for us - been there done that lol!! I'm a shocker at
it myself.
But your comment that they're perhaps wanting to stay up late to be
part of what is going on, to socialise with the family etc, is only
occasionally true. Sometimes, for my younger two (8 & 6) they resent
being asked to go to bed when the older boys (15 & 12) are still up
doing things like xbox or computer. They definitely resent the
seeming "injustice" of it, yet the older boys are very quick to tell
them (not so nicely) that "younger kids need more sleep" or "it's not
'normal' for younger kids to stay up this late; ALL your friends have
been in bed for hours!!". Any suggestions for how to provide "big boy
time" for the older kids (and sometimes we like to connect with them
in this way, watching a movie that isn't really appropriate for the
younger ones) but the younger two resent missing out? I want to
respect the big boys wanting a "break" from the younger two, so they
can play xbox games that are much more violent, or watch scarier
movies, etc. But I also want to respect the way that can make the
younger ones feel. Sometimes my solution is to just focus on settling
the younger two down with long stories etc, in their room, while the
older boys do their stuff in the lounge room (sometimes with my
husband), but this doesn't always work. Sometimes we just all stay up
watching a movie late together. (But of course, at the end of that,
we always initiate moving the younger two towards bed. They don't
always resist that, mind you, because there's a natural transition to
bed after a movie, I find.) To be honest, I'm delighted when it IS a
case of them all wanting to hang out together. Unfortunately, it's
just not often that reality.
Instead, it's become quite common for the big boys to put themselves
to bed much earlier than the younger two. (I know, I know, it's
interesting to see that the ones with the freedom to stay up or go to
bed, often choose to go to bed quite early, wheras the younger two who
are still 'asked to go to bed' want to stay up as late as possible.)
In those cases, when the big boys are in bed, it's literally just a
case of the younger two wanting to play the computer or something and
not stop. They have total freedom to do that during the day, so I'm
not sure why they find it so hard to stop, when it's late at night???
Do you think it's because they're being "told" to go to bed and
they're just resisting that?
Sorry this is so long. I'm really keen to work this situation out in
a way that respects everybody's needs and desires, helps us fit into a
society that sometimes includes phone calls and visits as early as
8.30 or 9am, and so that there can be less tension and stress
surrounding the issue of sleep and bedtimes.
Thank you so much for your advice already!
Karen Lee
Regarding the idea of being able to alter apparent "body clocks", the
thing I've noticed is that their preference for going to bed has got
later and later and later (probably coinciding with being "allowed" to
stay up later and later and later lol). And yet at some point we
still ask them to start getting ready for bed and so basically their
freedom does eventually come to an end. Perhaps that is why they keep
pushing the boundary??? I'd love to have the courage to "let them"
stay up without my husband or I actually initiating bedtime, so that
they can experience total exhaustion myself. I wonder if we did that
for a while, whether they'd be more in tune with their own tiredness
and start resisting bed less, but the fear is that they'll just get
used to going to bed later and later, and the cycle will continue?
Also, whilst they can and do sleep in a bit sometimes (e.g. last night
they slept from about 11.30/12.00 til almost 9 this morning) it still
doesn't seem like they're getting enough sleep by the indicators the
next day. It also doesn't always work for them to sleep in for ages,
because we sometimes get visitors about 9am (friends who might drop in
after delivering their kids to school).
Oh, and of course there's always the issue that my husband just isn't
open to the idea of totally free bedtimes. He works shiftwork and I
always emphasise the importance of being quiet in the house when
anyone is asleep, but when he gets home from an evening shift, he
really appreciates a quiet peaceful (kids in bed) house when he gets
home about 11pm, so he can relax. And when he's on an early shift the
next day, he appreciates a bit of peace and quiet before turning in
himself, and he just can't stay up late if he's leaving at 6am. For
him, that peace and quiet definitely equals kids tucked up safely in bed.
I find it hard to know how everyone's needs can be met.
As for the "artificial" stimulus of things like electronic media
keeping us awake later at night, I'm aware of what you talk about, how
anything really can draw us to stay up later than our bodyclocks would
indicate is good for us - been there done that lol!! I'm a shocker at
it myself.
But your comment that they're perhaps wanting to stay up late to be
part of what is going on, to socialise with the family etc, is only
occasionally true. Sometimes, for my younger two (8 & 6) they resent
being asked to go to bed when the older boys (15 & 12) are still up
doing things like xbox or computer. They definitely resent the
seeming "injustice" of it, yet the older boys are very quick to tell
them (not so nicely) that "younger kids need more sleep" or "it's not
'normal' for younger kids to stay up this late; ALL your friends have
been in bed for hours!!". Any suggestions for how to provide "big boy
time" for the older kids (and sometimes we like to connect with them
in this way, watching a movie that isn't really appropriate for the
younger ones) but the younger two resent missing out? I want to
respect the big boys wanting a "break" from the younger two, so they
can play xbox games that are much more violent, or watch scarier
movies, etc. But I also want to respect the way that can make the
younger ones feel. Sometimes my solution is to just focus on settling
the younger two down with long stories etc, in their room, while the
older boys do their stuff in the lounge room (sometimes with my
husband), but this doesn't always work. Sometimes we just all stay up
watching a movie late together. (But of course, at the end of that,
we always initiate moving the younger two towards bed. They don't
always resist that, mind you, because there's a natural transition to
bed after a movie, I find.) To be honest, I'm delighted when it IS a
case of them all wanting to hang out together. Unfortunately, it's
just not often that reality.
Instead, it's become quite common for the big boys to put themselves
to bed much earlier than the younger two. (I know, I know, it's
interesting to see that the ones with the freedom to stay up or go to
bed, often choose to go to bed quite early, wheras the younger two who
are still 'asked to go to bed' want to stay up as late as possible.)
In those cases, when the big boys are in bed, it's literally just a
case of the younger two wanting to play the computer or something and
not stop. They have total freedom to do that during the day, so I'm
not sure why they find it so hard to stop, when it's late at night???
Do you think it's because they're being "told" to go to bed and
they're just resisting that?
Sorry this is so long. I'm really keen to work this situation out in
a way that respects everybody's needs and desires, helps us fit into a
society that sometimes includes phone calls and visits as early as
8.30 or 9am, and so that there can be less tension and stress
surrounding the issue of sleep and bedtimes.
Thank you so much for your advice already!
Karen Lee
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <meredith@...> wrote:
>
> --- In [email protected], "Karen" <gktbdm@> wrote:
> >> ** Hey, I have a question about this. Do you think it's possible
> for
> > someone's body clock to change?
>
> Depends what you mean. Mo's sleep cycle periodically shifts by a
> couple hours in either direction. Its a little unsettling for a week
> or two, while we rethink our morning and evening strategies.
>
> When I started work, over a year ago, I had to shift my sleep
> schedule to accomodate that. Since I was getting up before dawn, I
> found I needed an extra hour of sleep not to be groggy the next day.
> Now that I'm laid off I'm getting to sleep until dawn again, which
> means I actually need less sleep overall. Its weird.
>
> > *** My 6 year old daughter, in particular, doesn't seem to sleep
> > later, even when she has had a really late night. Actually, she
> > habitually stays up pretty late & gets up before others in the
> family,
> > and often seems cranky and tired. Any ideas of how to deal with
> this
> > issue?
>
> It all depends on what you mean by "deal with this issue" ;) I'd work
> on the "tired" aspect - what can you do to make things a little
> easier on her when she's tired? Can you help her find calmer
> activities during the day? Work more "down time" into her day
> somehow? Tv? Baths? Some other calming activity? If nothing else, be
> aware of her tiredness as something to adjust for Not something to be
> irritated by, if you see what I mean? It doesn't help her or you to
> be annoyed at her tiredness. Helping her find ways to rest during the
> day, and ways to *allow* for her tiredness in the day's activities
> sets her up to be less cranky and, ultimately have more problem
> solving skills for when she *is* cranky.
>
> > Do you think that TVs
> > computers, etc could be considered "artificial reasons" to drive our
> > children to want to fight sleep.
>
> It sounds more like the other people in the family are the reason for
> fighting sleep. I've lived in a commune, in the middle of the woods,
> with no tv period and limited computer access. The adults still found
> reasons to stay up late - socializing, games, music... and the kids
> still found those to be good reasons to want to stay up, too.
>
> I've stayed up much later than my usual knitting, or quilting, or
> writing by hand, no less! I've gotten up in the middle of the night
> to read. When I was a kid I'd read with a flashlight under the covers
> late at night, when I was "supposed" to be asleep. George stays up
> late playing music, or working in the shop. He'll get up in the
> middle of the night and work. Mo stays up late painting or playing
> with legos. Sometimes she'll stay up late reading to her stuffed
> toys. Ray will stay up late to socialize. He's been up all night
> talking more than once. Those are our passions. Sometimes passions
> keep you up late at night. That's a Good Thing.
>
> > Anyone else have any relevant experience with larger, mixed age
> > families sharing one living room area, where there aren't options
> for
> > the older kids to be off in a rec room somewhere, or something like
> > that. When the living space with computers & TV etc are very close
> to
> > bedrooms, etc. I'd love to hear some success stories & strategies
> > that I can try.
>
> Headphones are wonderful things. We have a tiny house, and headphones
> help us all stay sane. We've used soft music as a way to dull out the
> sound of conversation in another room some people like white noise
> machines for that. We've rearranged our living area with respect to
> the way sound travels. Speakers pointing away from the stairs make a
> Big Difference in our lives!
>
> I can't help but wonder, though, given what you wrote, if that's not
> really the problem. It doesn't sound like people are being kept awake
> so much as are wanting to be included in things they already know are
> going on. Its Good that they want to be included! Its not just the
> techie toys, it's the conviviality they want. They want to hang out
> and have fun with the family Hooray! That's not "normal" in modern,
> western culture bc we've created this split between the worlds of
> adults and children. It *is* normal in a grander sense in the sense
> of how human beings live and learn and relate to one another. Other
> families have to *make* time for the family to do things together, to
> resist the isolation that comes from our modern lifestyles. Your
> family your kids! have found a way to enjoy being a family
> together. That's better than good.
>
> (The night I wrote this, btw, my internet connection was balky so I
> couldn't send. My dd came to me just as I was saving to ask me to
> come look at the moon. So we stayed up late looking at the night sky.)
>
> ---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Karen" <gktbdm@...> wrote:
Where sleep is concerned, that means the whole idea of "having" to go
to bed can get in the way of a good night's sleep. The younger kids
don't see any logical reason why they should "have" to go to bed
early - its just a weird attempt to control their behavior. So they
resist. Its a vicious cycle.
given the freedom to stay up as late as they want, whenever they
want, kids really do figure out what "tired" feels like and what to
do about it. It helps if they can have someone stay up with them to
help out - help them get snacks and drinks when they get too tired to
do that without making a mess, remind them to be quiet, help problem
solve, that sort of thing.
won't get enough sleep, bc being in control of *when* they go to bed
takes precedence over figuring out how much sleep they need, what
feels right to their bodies.
courteous of others' sleep: "I'm sorry, the kids are still asleep and
I don't want to disturb them." If you start staying up late with the
kids, call your friends and let them know that 9am is too early to
visit. I know two families of homeschoolers (not even unschoolers)
that I'd never dream of calling before 10am, so 9 sounds awfully
early, unless the kids are really little.
can do that any time, not just late at night, too. It really helps to
think all 'round the clock, not just "night is for adults". Watch a
scary movie in the afternoon while the younger kids play outside.
Hang out with the older guys in the morning, while the younger are
still sleeping! Plan some nice breakfasts with foods the little ones
don't appreciate yet - work it in with dad's schedule, too, so he
doesn't get left out.
This is trickier. Its reasonable to say: you can stay up *if* you're
quiet so dad can sleep. That's something that takes practice, and you
being up with the kids to help them remember, but its doable - its
harder if the kids are feeling pressured to go to bed at
some "reasonable time" though ;)
Dad wanting quiet time is the part that gets tricky. Can he get that
in the bedroom with the door shut? Can you sit with him and chat for
a few minutes, if part of what he wants is some connection with you?
Are there other times and ways he can get his needs met? Can you and
he go for a walk together when he gets home? I know its challenging
to shift gears from work to home. Its challenging for the kids, too -
dad's home, why can't we play with him? We've waited All Day! Maybe
you can act as a buffer between kids and dad for a little while when
he gets in, so he has time to unwind.
That's the hard part. The expectations are standing in the way of
problem solving and reducing the matter to "when do they go to bed."
One option - something to suggest, maybe, as an experiment - is to
somehow pick a "bed time" and then also work out a schedule for
extending it. So, for example, maybe you'd start with 11:30 and every
week add another half hour - or hour, if you like. Maybe it would be
a "solid" bedtime, or maybe just a guide for when mom and dad get to
start turning the lights down - that's something to think about, too.
Either way, you'd just about guarantee they'd stay up good and late
every night for awhile - but on the other hand, you'd Know it and
could plan around it. Work it into dad's shift schedule in some more
convenient way. Warn off the morning visitors in advance so you can
sleep late, too.
The catch to all of this is that you need to be simultaneously
looking for other ways/times to connect with the older kids and for
dad to have down time. I'd talk about it with everyone in the family
individulally First, get input, get ideas - for all the issues
involved. Don't expect it to all come together overnight (as it
were). Maybe come up with a variety of plans to try - do some
experimenting. Its really Okay to experiment! It can be pretty
validating to kids, actually, to have parents say "I'm not sure if
this is a good idea, but can we try it as an experiment?" It can help
build a sense of partnership by breaking down the idea that adults
are always supposed to know what to do.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)
>> Do you think it's because they're being "told" to go to bed andBeing "told" to do anything at all can create a Lot of resistance!
> they're just resisting that?
Where sleep is concerned, that means the whole idea of "having" to go
to bed can get in the way of a good night's sleep. The younger kids
don't see any logical reason why they should "have" to go to bed
early - its just a weird attempt to control their behavior. So they
resist. Its a vicious cycle.
> I'd love to have the courage to "let them"that
> stay up without my husband or I actually initiating bedtime, so that
> they can experience total exhaustion myself. I wonder if we did
> for a while, whether they'd be more in tune with their own tirednessMy experience, similar to many other longtime unschoolers, is that,
> and start resisting bed less, but the fear is that they'll just get
> used to going to bed later and later, and the cycle will continue?
given the freedom to stay up as late as they want, whenever they
want, kids really do figure out what "tired" feels like and what to
do about it. It helps if they can have someone stay up with them to
help out - help them get snacks and drinks when they get too tired to
do that without making a mess, remind them to be quiet, help problem
solve, that sort of thing.
> it stillThat's more likely to happen if they're resisting going to bed - they
> doesn't seem like they're getting enough sleep by the indicators the
> next day.
won't get enough sleep, bc being in control of *when* they go to bed
takes precedence over figuring out how much sleep they need, what
feels right to their bodies.
> It also doesn't always work for them to sleep in for ages,Can you hang out and talk quietly on the porch? If not, model being
> because we sometimes get visitors about 9am
courteous of others' sleep: "I'm sorry, the kids are still asleep and
I don't want to disturb them." If you start staying up late with the
kids, call your friends and let them know that 9am is too early to
visit. I know two families of homeschoolers (not even unschoolers)
that I'd never dream of calling before 10am, so 9 sounds awfully
early, unless the kids are really little.
>Any suggestions for how to provide "big boySet the younger kids up with a really fun game or movie *first* - you
> time" for the older kids (and sometimes we like to connect with them
> in this way, watching a movie that isn't really appropriate for the
> younger ones)
can do that any time, not just late at night, too. It really helps to
think all 'round the clock, not just "night is for adults". Watch a
scary movie in the afternoon while the younger kids play outside.
Hang out with the older guys in the morning, while the younger are
still sleeping! Plan some nice breakfasts with foods the little ones
don't appreciate yet - work it in with dad's schedule, too, so he
doesn't get left out.
>> Oh, and of course there's always the issue that my husband justisn't
> open to the idea of totally free bedtimes. He works shiftwork...For
> him, that peace and quiet definitely equals kids tucked up safelyin bed.
This is trickier. Its reasonable to say: you can stay up *if* you're
quiet so dad can sleep. That's something that takes practice, and you
being up with the kids to help them remember, but its doable - its
harder if the kids are feeling pressured to go to bed at
some "reasonable time" though ;)
Dad wanting quiet time is the part that gets tricky. Can he get that
in the bedroom with the door shut? Can you sit with him and chat for
a few minutes, if part of what he wants is some connection with you?
Are there other times and ways he can get his needs met? Can you and
he go for a walk together when he gets home? I know its challenging
to shift gears from work to home. Its challenging for the kids, too -
dad's home, why can't we play with him? We've waited All Day! Maybe
you can act as a buffer between kids and dad for a little while when
he gets in, so he has time to unwind.
> I find it hard to know how everyone's needs can be met.Everyone's needs can be met if some expectations can be let go.
That's the hard part. The expectations are standing in the way of
problem solving and reducing the matter to "when do they go to bed."
One option - something to suggest, maybe, as an experiment - is to
somehow pick a "bed time" and then also work out a schedule for
extending it. So, for example, maybe you'd start with 11:30 and every
week add another half hour - or hour, if you like. Maybe it would be
a "solid" bedtime, or maybe just a guide for when mom and dad get to
start turning the lights down - that's something to think about, too.
Either way, you'd just about guarantee they'd stay up good and late
every night for awhile - but on the other hand, you'd Know it and
could plan around it. Work it into dad's shift schedule in some more
convenient way. Warn off the morning visitors in advance so you can
sleep late, too.
The catch to all of this is that you need to be simultaneously
looking for other ways/times to connect with the older kids and for
dad to have down time. I'd talk about it with everyone in the family
individulally First, get input, get ideas - for all the issues
involved. Don't expect it to all come together overnight (as it
were). Maybe come up with a variety of plans to try - do some
experimenting. Its really Okay to experiment! It can be pretty
validating to kids, actually, to have parents say "I'm not sure if
this is a good idea, but can we try it as an experiment?" It can help
build a sense of partnership by breaking down the idea that adults
are always supposed to know what to do.
---Meredith (Mo 7, Ray 15)