Advice needed
Tracy
My 16 year old son wants to go to school because he feels like he's
missing out on schoolish things - like dances and socializing. He
feels he's dumb because he's not up to speed on school subjects like
math. I don't know what to do...I don't want him to go to school, but
he has an idealized view of it.
He works and has started karate recently and we go to the mall and
movies, etc. It's not like he's kept in seclusion.
If he went back to public school - what are the procedures? Would he
be tested to see what grade level he'd be in? I kept no concrete
records of what we did over the years.
Advice would be greatly appreciated!
~ Tracy
missing out on schoolish things - like dances and socializing. He
feels he's dumb because he's not up to speed on school subjects like
math. I don't know what to do...I don't want him to go to school, but
he has an idealized view of it.
He works and has started karate recently and we go to the mall and
movies, etc. It's not like he's kept in seclusion.
If he went back to public school - what are the procedures? Would he
be tested to see what grade level he'd be in? I kept no concrete
records of what we did over the years.
Advice would be greatly appreciated!
~ Tracy
Deborah Markley
I would really like to hear what kind of response you get to this. My son is 15 and we recently moved from FL to WV. He has no desire at all to go to public school, but is talking about taking his GED. He also feels dumb and that he's not up to speed on "normal" school subjects (he is having just a horrible time with math).
He is so afraid to even think about the GED and now, at the ripe old age of 15, he is very concerned about his future.
I just don't know what to tell him - There aren't many unschool resources here in the hills! LOL
Deb
He is so afraid to even think about the GED and now, at the ripe old age of 15, he is very concerned about his future.
I just don't know what to tell him - There aren't many unschool resources here in the hills! LOL
Deb
----- Original Message -----
From: Tracy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 5:33 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Advice needed
My 16 year old son wants to go to school because he feels like he's
missing out on schoolish things - like dances and socializing. He
feels he's dumb because he's not up to speed on school subjects like
math. I don't know what to do...I don't want him to go to school, but
he has an idealized view of it.
He works and has started karate recently and we go to the mall and
movies, etc. It's not like he's kept in seclusion.
If he went back to public school - what are the procedures? Would he
be tested to see what grade level he'd be in? I kept no concrete
records of what we did over the years.
Advice would be greatly appreciated!
~ Tracy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jan 13, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Deborah Markley wrote:
unschooling? For how long?
could go together to an unschooling conference - sounds like he needs
to meet other unschooled kids and young adults who didn't do school
and would also have been considerably "behind" if tested on typical
school subjects but are doing quite amazing and wonderful things with
their lives. We know that school isn't the be-all and end-all of
childhood, but it might seem that way to him if he doesn't understand
unschooling. If he's interested, he could read "The Teenage Liberation
Handbook" by Grace Llewelyn (at least the first half). Sounds like he
doesn't really know what unschooling is all about. My kids didn't buy
into or accept the idea that they ought to learn what school kids were
being taught. They were not impressed at all with what their schooled
friends were studying in school. They had their own interests and
pursued them with great gusto. I'm going to talk to them later about
their attitude and why they were not concerned. They're past it at
this point - one has graduated from college with lots of honors and
has a great career and is continuing some post-grad studies; another
has almost completed all her general ed requirements with straight As
and is transferring from community college to a university; the third
has taken college courses that interest her (including political
science, math, and sign language along with lots of music, theater,
and dance) and also has almost all A's. So - like I said - they are
beyond worrying about any comparisons to schooled kids. They are 24,
21, and 18 (in a couple of weeks).
-pam
> I would really like to hear what kind of response you get to this.I'm confused. Having a horrible time with math? What math? Are you
> My son is 15 and we recently moved from FL to WV. He has no desire
> at all to go to public school, but is talking about taking his GED.
> He also feels dumb and that he's not up to speed on "normal" school
> subjects (he is having just a horrible time with math).
unschooling? For how long?
>Maybe you could either send him to Not-Back-to-School Camp or you
>
> He is so afraid to even think about the GED and now, at the ripe old
> age of 15, he is very concerned about his future.
could go together to an unschooling conference - sounds like he needs
to meet other unschooled kids and young adults who didn't do school
and would also have been considerably "behind" if tested on typical
school subjects but are doing quite amazing and wonderful things with
their lives. We know that school isn't the be-all and end-all of
childhood, but it might seem that way to him if he doesn't understand
unschooling. If he's interested, he could read "The Teenage Liberation
Handbook" by Grace Llewelyn (at least the first half). Sounds like he
doesn't really know what unschooling is all about. My kids didn't buy
into or accept the idea that they ought to learn what school kids were
being taught. They were not impressed at all with what their schooled
friends were studying in school. They had their own interests and
pursued them with great gusto. I'm going to talk to them later about
their attitude and why they were not concerned. They're past it at
this point - one has graduated from college with lots of honors and
has a great career and is continuing some post-grad studies; another
has almost completed all her general ed requirements with straight As
and is transferring from community college to a university; the third
has taken college courses that interest her (including political
science, math, and sign language along with lots of music, theater,
and dance) and also has almost all A's. So - like I said - they are
beyond worrying about any comparisons to schooled kids. They are 24,
21, and 18 (in a couple of weeks).
-pam
Deborah Markley
Started out homeschooling, then went to unschooling. Have been doing that for about 3 years now, but since my son is thinking more and more about the future, he wants to get ready for his GED and therefore feels he needs to "learn" the "right stuff" to get it right. I keep telling him not to worry, but he refuses to listen. he is really upset about this Math thing and all the other things he hasn't "learned" but refuses to see all the things that he has learned, you know what I mean? He is just really scared of what his future will be like without a "school" education...
----- Original Message -----
From: Pamela Sorooshian
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Advice needed
On Jan 13, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Deborah Markley wrote:
> I would really like to hear what kind of response you get to this.
> My son is 15 and we recently moved from FL to WV. He has no desire
> at all to go to public school, but is talking about taking his GED.
> He also feels dumb and that he's not up to speed on "normal" school
> subjects (he is having just a horrible time with math).
I'm confused. Having a horrible time with math? What math? Are you
unschooling? For how long?
>
>
> He is so afraid to even think about the GED and now, at the ripe old
> age of 15, he is very concerned about his future.
Maybe you could either send him to Not-Back-to-School Camp or you
could go together to an unschooling conference - sounds like he needs
to meet other unschooled kids and young adults who didn't do school
and would also have been considerably "behind" if tested on typical
school subjects but are doing quite amazing and wonderful things with
their lives. We know that school isn't the be-all and end-all of
childhood, but it might seem that way to him if he doesn't understand
unschooling. If he's interested, he could read "The Teenage Liberation
Handbook" by Grace Llewelyn (at least the first half). Sounds like he
doesn't really know what unschooling is all about. My kids didn't buy
into or accept the idea that they ought to learn what school kids were
being taught. They were not impressed at all with what their schooled
friends were studying in school. They had their own interests and
pursued them with great gusto. I'm going to talk to them later about
their attitude and why they were not concerned. They're past it at
this point - one has graduated from college with lots of honors and
has a great career and is continuing some post-grad studies; another
has almost completed all her general ed requirements with straight As
and is transferring from community college to a university; the third
has taken college courses that interest her (including political
science, math, and sign language along with lots of music, theater,
and dance) and also has almost all A's. So - like I said - they are
beyond worrying about any comparisons to schooled kids. They are 24,
21, and 18 (in a couple of weeks).
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
raisingexplorers
I just want to say that the GED test is surprisingly easy. I was
completely flunking out of school... I mean with 9s, 13s, etc.
skipping school more than half the year.. and I aced three portions of
the test and made above average scores on the rest of it.
This is a school flunkie who did not study AT ALL, for the GED test.
But, in order to boost his self confidence, maybe you could check out
a GED study book from the library and let him see just how hard it
will be for him. Our state also offers GED study classes to boost your
chances, before taking the test. They are free, except for the
workbooks, I think, which are like $30. Anyway, there are maybe 6
2-hour long classes and there is an instructor.. but, they don't
*teach* they are just there to help if people have questions about
things in the workbooks.
completely flunking out of school... I mean with 9s, 13s, etc.
skipping school more than half the year.. and I aced three portions of
the test and made above average scores on the rest of it.
This is a school flunkie who did not study AT ALL, for the GED test.
But, in order to boost his self confidence, maybe you could check out
a GED study book from the library and let him see just how hard it
will be for him. Our state also offers GED study classes to boost your
chances, before taking the test. They are free, except for the
workbooks, I think, which are like $30. Anyway, there are maybe 6
2-hour long classes and there is an instructor.. but, they don't
*teach* they are just there to help if people have questions about
things in the workbooks.
aidansutherland
--- In [email protected], "Deborah Markley"
<markley4@...> wrote:
and more about the future, he wants to get ready for his GED and
therefore feels he needs to "learn" the "right stuff" to get it right.
I keep telling him not to worry, but he refuses to listen. he is
really upset about this Math thing and all the other things he hasn't
"learned" but refuses to see all the things that he has learned, you
know what I mean? He is just really scared of what his future will be
like without a "school" education...
Why doesn't he teach himself math with your help? I'm trying to brush
up right now on the math I learned in school, so I can take the
placement test at community college. I found some great books at the
library, and many great online tutorials. One site even has videos of
what I swear is my 7th grade teacher using a dry erase board.
It sounds almost like you're taking this as a philosophical issue,
like he's tearing down unschooling. From what you say, I hear that he
wants to feel competent and has decided on the only solution he can
think of- school. Maybe you can ask him about his concerns, his goals
for himself, and his ideas on how to get where he wants to go. If you
keep arguing with him that everything's fine when he clearly thinks
it's not, he will just keep arguing back. But if you can get on the
same side as him, you can use your greater experience to help him find
alternatives to school.
Does anyone remember/can anyone point to the blog entry by that kid
who tried school for a year and wrote about his experiences? He went
in with wide open eyes and was amazed by how right his parents were!
The kids were immature and ignorant, there was a lot of wasted time.
He really laid it all out there. This would be a great read for your son.
<markley4@...> wrote:
>doing that for about 3 years now, but since my son is thinking more
> Started out homeschooling, then went to unschooling. Have been
and more about the future, he wants to get ready for his GED and
therefore feels he needs to "learn" the "right stuff" to get it right.
I keep telling him not to worry, but he refuses to listen. he is
really upset about this Math thing and all the other things he hasn't
"learned" but refuses to see all the things that he has learned, you
know what I mean? He is just really scared of what his future will be
like without a "school" education...
Why doesn't he teach himself math with your help? I'm trying to brush
up right now on the math I learned in school, so I can take the
placement test at community college. I found some great books at the
library, and many great online tutorials. One site even has videos of
what I swear is my 7th grade teacher using a dry erase board.
It sounds almost like you're taking this as a philosophical issue,
like he's tearing down unschooling. From what you say, I hear that he
wants to feel competent and has decided on the only solution he can
think of- school. Maybe you can ask him about his concerns, his goals
for himself, and his ideas on how to get where he wants to go. If you
keep arguing with him that everything's fine when he clearly thinks
it's not, he will just keep arguing back. But if you can get on the
same side as him, you can use your greater experience to help him find
alternatives to school.
Does anyone remember/can anyone point to the blog entry by that kid
who tried school for a year and wrote about his experiences? He went
in with wide open eyes and was amazed by how right his parents were!
The kids were immature and ignorant, there was a lot of wasted time.
He really laid it all out there. This would be a great read for your son.
Deborah Markley
Thanks everyone for the suggestions -
I'm afraid I'm not much help to him in the Math department. I really suck at math and never got past Algebra. I pretty much failed that. I barely passed history, but that was with a D and it was only because my boyfriend loved history and helped me.
My son and I have been talking more. He know that I dropped out of school in 11th grade for medical reasons and took my GED and passed with flying colors. No prep or studying at all. But he is assuming that the GED has gotten harder now. He plays World of Warcraft a lot and has many friends that he is in contact with thru WOW and I think they may be a factor in his "worry".
The one thing that made him feel so much better is that a friend his age is doing horribly with long division and my son thinks that long division is incredibly easy - this has helped give him quite a boost!
Again, thanks for the advice. We are heading to the library this weekend and I think he will probably get a GED prep book (or whatever it's called).
I'm afraid I'm not much help to him in the Math department. I really suck at math and never got past Algebra. I pretty much failed that. I barely passed history, but that was with a D and it was only because my boyfriend loved history and helped me.
My son and I have been talking more. He know that I dropped out of school in 11th grade for medical reasons and took my GED and passed with flying colors. No prep or studying at all. But he is assuming that the GED has gotten harder now. He plays World of Warcraft a lot and has many friends that he is in contact with thru WOW and I think they may be a factor in his "worry".
The one thing that made him feel so much better is that a friend his age is doing horribly with long division and my son thinks that long division is incredibly easy - this has helped give him quite a boost!
Again, thanks for the advice. We are heading to the library this weekend and I think he will probably get a GED prep book (or whatever it's called).
----- Original Message -----
From: aidansutherland
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:22 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Advice needed
--- In [email protected], "Deborah Markley"
<markley4@...> wrote:
>
> Started out homeschooling, then went to unschooling. Have been
doing that for about 3 years now, but since my son is thinking more
and more about the future, he wants to get ready for his GED and
therefore feels he needs to "learn" the "right stuff" to get it right.
I keep telling him not to worry, but he refuses to listen. he is
really upset about this Math thing and all the other things he hasn't
"learned" but refuses to see all the things that he has learned, you
know what I mean? He is just really scared of what his future will be
like without a "school" education...
Why doesn't he teach himself math with your help? I'm trying to brush
up right now on the math I learned in school, so I can take the
placement test at community college. I found some great books at the
library, and many great online tutorials. One site even has videos of
what I swear is my 7th grade teacher using a dry erase board.
It sounds almost like you're taking this as a philosophical issue,
like he's tearing down unschooling. From what you say, I hear that he
wants to feel competent and has decided on the only solution he can
think of- school. Maybe you can ask him about his concerns, his goals
for himself, and his ideas on how to get where he wants to go. If you
keep arguing with him that everything's fine when he clearly thinks
it's not, he will just keep arguing back. But if you can get on the
same side as him, you can use your greater experience to help him find
alternatives to school.
Does anyone remember/can anyone point to the blog entry by that kid
who tried school for a year and wrote about his experiences? He went
in with wide open eyes and was amazed by how right his parents were!
The kids were immature and ignorant, there was a lot of wasted time.
He really laid it all out there. This would be a great read for your son.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joanna Weir
Hi
I'm new on here (from England), with one 11 yr old son just starting to
unschool.
Just a quick note to pass on this link for an amazing website with
everything to do with math. :)
http://www.khanacademy.org
There have 700+ videos on YouTube covering everything from basic
arithmetic and algebra to differential equations, physics, and finance
which have been recorded by Salman Khan. He has also developed a free,
adaptive math program.
Hope this might be useful
Best wishes
Jo
I'm new on here (from England), with one 11 yr old son just starting to
unschool.
Just a quick note to pass on this link for an amazing website with
everything to do with math. :)
http://www.khanacademy.org
There have 700+ videos on YouTube covering everything from basic
arithmetic and algebra to differential equations, physics, and finance
which have been recorded by Salman Khan. He has also developed a free,
adaptive math program.
Hope this might be useful
Best wishes
Jo
On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 8:31 PM, Deborah Markley <markley4@...> wrote:
> Thanks everyone for the suggestions -
>
> I'm afraid I'm not much help to him in the Math department. I really suck
> at math and never got past Algebra. I pretty much failed that.
>
> The one thing that made him feel so much better is that a friend his age is
> doing horribly with long division and my son thinks that long division is
> incredibly easy - this has helped give him quite a boost!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kelly Lovejoy
You might want to consider hooking him up with Horde or Unschoolers on WoW. Venture Co.
Jill---do you have the immediate WoW info? Duncan just joined. He's talked with David at least once. Hasn't met up with Luke---that I know of.
But getting to know other unschoolers who DON'T have these doubts would help a lot!
Conference? TONS around now!
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah Markley <markley4@...>
My son and I have been talking more. He know that I dropped out of school in
11th grade for medical reasons and took my GED and passed with flying colors.
No prep or studying at all. But he is assuming that the GED has gotten harder
now. He plays World of Warcraft a lot and has many friends that he is in
contact with thru WOW and I think they may be a factor in his "worry".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jill---do you have the immediate WoW info? Duncan just joined. He's talked with David at least once. Hasn't met up with Luke---that I know of.
But getting to know other unschoolers who DON'T have these doubts would help a lot!
Conference? TONS around now!
~Kelly
-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah Markley <markley4@...>
My son and I have been talking more. He know that I dropped out of school in
11th grade for medical reasons and took my GED and passed with flying colors.
No prep or studying at all. But he is assuming that the GED has gotten harder
now. He plays World of Warcraft a lot and has many friends that he is in
contact with thru WOW and I think they may be a factor in his "worry".
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jill Parmer
On Jan 14, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Kelly Lovejoy wrote:
Realm: The Venture Co.
Guild name: Horde of Unschoolers
Patrick informed me that it is not always obvious....horde
characters. :-)
Luke is on lots of characters and starts many a guild, so it's often
a mystery where he is in Azeroth. We just started some twin orc
hunters (Tek (Luke) and Teik (me)) who we use for role play and
generosity to other horde players and induce fear of death to
alliance players.
Dave and I were just talking that we have plenty of high characters
now, and can help people with dungeon runs when they need them to
help people level, and play with us higher characters. I'll post
info at unschooling_gamers when we have dungeon runs set, also people
can use the in-game calendar to announce plans for groups. We often
do guild runs on Friday nights.
Look for these players for invite to the guild: Bedwyr, Aeolos,
Takulah, Jilam, Lokkan. And please tell us who you are, and/or your
Mom/Dad's name from this list so we know who you are.
~Jill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> You might want to consider hooking him up with Horde or UnschoolersYou got all the info right, Kelly.
> on WoW. Venture Co.
>
> Jill---do you have the immediate WoW info?
Realm: The Venture Co.
Guild name: Horde of Unschoolers
Patrick informed me that it is not always obvious....horde
characters. :-)
> Duncan just joined. He's talked with David at least once. Hasn'tCoolio. What's his character's name?
> met up with Luke---that I know of.
Luke is on lots of characters and starts many a guild, so it's often
a mystery where he is in Azeroth. We just started some twin orc
hunters (Tek (Luke) and Teik (me)) who we use for role play and
generosity to other horde players and induce fear of death to
alliance players.
Dave and I were just talking that we have plenty of high characters
now, and can help people with dungeon runs when they need them to
help people level, and play with us higher characters. I'll post
info at unschooling_gamers when we have dungeon runs set, also people
can use the in-game calendar to announce plans for groups. We often
do guild runs on Friday nights.
Look for these players for invite to the guild: Bedwyr, Aeolos,
Takulah, Jilam, Lokkan. And please tell us who you are, and/or your
Mom/Dad's name from this list so we know who you are.
~Jill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brenna Shugarts
oh, ladies PLEASE limit your childs time on this game. My husband has been addicted to it for years! i can't get him off of it. he looks for ways to stay home from activities/work so he can play. I have seen him actually sit for 10 hrs!!! there also was a virus on one of the scripts & it fried our last computer. (about 3 months ago) Hope you all don't think i am being to nosy just conserned. i often wonder what he could have done w/ his life had he not spent so much time on the games. I know as a mother noone wants to say that about there children. Love & Light. Brenna
reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the angels know of us.
reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the angels know of us.
--- On Wed, 1/14/09, Jill Parmer <jparmer@...> wrote:
From: Jill Parmer <jparmer@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: World of Warcraft ( was: Advice needed)
To: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 8:34 PM
On Jan 14, 2009, at 5:46 PM, Kelly Lovejoy wrote:
> You might want to consider hooking him up with Horde or Unschoolers
> on WoW. Venture Co.
>
> Jill---do you have the immediate WoW info?
You got all the info right, Kelly.
Realm: The Venture Co.
Guild name: Horde of Unschoolers
Patrick informed me that it is not always obvious....horde
characters. :-)
> Duncan just joined. He's talked with David at least once. Hasn't
> met up with Luke---that I know of.
Coolio. What's his character's name?
Luke is on lots of characters and starts many a guild, so it's often
a mystery where he is in Azeroth. We just started some twin orc
hunters (Tek (Luke) and Teik (me)) who we use for role play and
generosity to other horde players and induce fear of death to
alliance players.
Dave and I were just talking that we have plenty of high characters
now, and can help people with dungeon runs when they need them to
help people level, and play with us higher characters. I'll post
info at unschooling_ gamers when we have dungeon runs set, also people
can use the in-game calendar to announce plans for groups. We often
do guild runs on Friday nights.
Look for these players for invite to the guild: Bedwyr, Aeolos,
Takulah, Jilam, Lokkan. And please tell us who you are, and/or your
Mom/Dad's name from this list so we know who you are.
~Jill
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
raisingexplorers
> He know that I dropped out of school in 11th grade for medicalreasons and took my GED and passed with flying colors. No prep or
studying at all. But he is assuming that the GED has gotten harder now.
I took my GED in either 1999 or 2000 and it wasn't hard. This was 2 or
3 years after I dropped out of school (where I was flunking everything
anyhow), so plenty of time to forget almost everything. LOL
The thing that makes the GED test so easy is that almost all of it is
multiple choice... and much of the test gives you context clues in
passages and such, that will help you get the right answer. Even if
you come to a hard part.. you still have a 25% chance of getting the
right answer... but, I'd raise that even further because they always
put at least one answer that is so completely ridiculous that no one
would choose it. LOL
Faith Void
What I am reading is that you are suggesting that:
A) People you don't know should place arbitrary limits on their children's
activities because of your fear that they might become so full of joy with a
game that they will want nothing else when they grown up.
B) That there is something wrong with your husband because he doesn't like
his job more than a video game.
C) That 10 hours of joy is bad if it is in front of a video game.
D) That you feel like their is something lacking in your husband's life due
to playing video games so much as a child.
E) You are attempting to control an adult that you choose to marry.
a) I feel like placing limits is more likely to create an imbalance that
will last until adulthood. I think arbitrary limits inhibit a respectful
trusting relationship between two people. I prefer to celebrate my
children's and my husband's passions and interests. I find that
participating in or sharing the joy brings more joy and friendship and love.
b) Perhaps your husband needs a more fullfilling job. One that brings joy to
him instead of sucks it from him. Perhaps the activities that you are
talking about are less interesting than the game he loves. My husband LOVES
WoW. He plays frequently. He also loves his work and family. Because he
loves and enjoys them all he finds balance.
c) If someone found 10 straight hours of joy while reading would that be ok?
If someone found 10 straight hours of joy at church would that be ok? If
someone found 10 hours of joy working on physics problems? Why would one
passion or pursuit be better than another?
d) You husband is exactly who he needs to be right now at this moment.
Regret is a waste of energy and a vacuum to joy. Sure my life would have
been different if xy or z didn;t happen. Reality is that xyz did happen, it
shaped who I am. I like who I am. If I regret those things I am expressing a
dissatisfaction with who I AM. Instead if I don't like something I am doing
I changer that.
e) I thing trying to control your husband (or children) is just going to
cause resentment and anger. Perhaps you could find a way to celebrate his
video game obsession. Bring him special food while he plays, sit next to him
and rub his shoulders that must be stressed from working a job he doesn't
love.
Faith
A) People you don't know should place arbitrary limits on their children's
activities because of your fear that they might become so full of joy with a
game that they will want nothing else when they grown up.
B) That there is something wrong with your husband because he doesn't like
his job more than a video game.
C) That 10 hours of joy is bad if it is in front of a video game.
D) That you feel like their is something lacking in your husband's life due
to playing video games so much as a child.
E) You are attempting to control an adult that you choose to marry.
a) I feel like placing limits is more likely to create an imbalance that
will last until adulthood. I think arbitrary limits inhibit a respectful
trusting relationship between two people. I prefer to celebrate my
children's and my husband's passions and interests. I find that
participating in or sharing the joy brings more joy and friendship and love.
b) Perhaps your husband needs a more fullfilling job. One that brings joy to
him instead of sucks it from him. Perhaps the activities that you are
talking about are less interesting than the game he loves. My husband LOVES
WoW. He plays frequently. He also loves his work and family. Because he
loves and enjoys them all he finds balance.
c) If someone found 10 straight hours of joy while reading would that be ok?
If someone found 10 straight hours of joy at church would that be ok? If
someone found 10 hours of joy working on physics problems? Why would one
passion or pursuit be better than another?
d) You husband is exactly who he needs to be right now at this moment.
Regret is a waste of energy and a vacuum to joy. Sure my life would have
been different if xy or z didn;t happen. Reality is that xyz did happen, it
shaped who I am. I like who I am. If I regret those things I am expressing a
dissatisfaction with who I AM. Instead if I don't like something I am doing
I changer that.
e) I thing trying to control your husband (or children) is just going to
cause resentment and anger. Perhaps you could find a way to celebrate his
video game obsession. Bring him special food while he plays, sit next to him
and rub his shoulders that must be stressed from working a job he doesn't
love.
Faith
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Brenna Shugarts <bshugarts@...>wrote:
> oh, ladies PLEASE limit your childs time on this game. My husband has
> been addicted to it for years! i can't get him off of it. he looks for ways
> to stay home from activities/work so he can play. I have seen him actually
> sit for 10 hrs!!! there also was a virus on one of the scripts & it fried
> our last computer. (about 3 months ago) Hope you all don't think i am being
> to nosy just conserned. i often wonder what he could have done w/ his life
> had he not spent so much time on the games. I know as a mother noone wants
> to say that about there children. Love & Light. Brenna
>
> reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the
> angels know of us.
>
> -
>
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jan 15, 2009, at 5:13 AM, Brenna Shugarts wrote:
Also, was HE brought up by parents who supported his interests?
-pam
> oh, ladies PLEASE limit your childs time on this game. My husbandWhat does your husband have to say about this?
> has been addicted to it for years! i can't get him off of it.
> he looks for ways to stay home from activities/work so he can play.
> I have seen him actually sit for 10 hrs!!! there also was a virus on
> one of the scripts & it fried our last computer. (about 3 months
> ago) Hope you all don't think i am being to nosy just conserned. i
> often wonder what he could have done w/ his life had he not spent so
> much time on the games. I know as a mother noone wants to say that
> about there children. Love & Light. Brenna
Also, was HE brought up by parents who supported his interests?
-pam
Dan Lake
I'm not going to say that someone should impose limits on another person
and I strongly believe in supporting my kids' and wife's passions. I'll also
say that some of you have never met someone suffering from video game
addiction. Some people (I'm one of them) have seriously addictive
mentalities and find the virtual world such an incredible escape from the
"real" world that they completely check out. The built-in systems of
activities and small rewards are more than entertaining to some and become
an extremely addictive driver of behavior. There are countless documented
cases of people losing their jobs, failing school (I know, who cares right?)
and even divorced due to video game addiction and the resulting neglect of
everything and everyone around. People have even died from starvation or
malnutrition while playing WoW, LotR, Everquest, UO, etc.
I'll go out on a limb here and hopefully add some credibility to my story by
saying that my wife and I played WoW for almost 2 years together. We
experienced at least 8-10 hours of "joy" every day during that period. I
played at work, we played together at home, we played when the kids were
sleeping, awake, eating, you name it. The leveling, resource gathering,
quests, raids, and rep grinding were all we thought about day and night. We
lost touch with every real world friend we had known save one, despite how
much they expressed concern for us. Between me and my wife we gained 100
pounds. It really didn't matter because there was always another purple epic
sword or staff our mount or raid boss to conquer. One day we left the water
running while playing and the entire upstairs of our house filled with
water. When we got up from playing at 4am (I had to be at work at 7am), the
carpet in our office was like a marsh. We only played 6 months more after
that happened.
As a kid, I played dozens of similar games, the most notable being the
Ultima 1 - Ultima 8 series. The difference with these games is that they all
had an ending where the game can be beaten or won. The last game I "won" was
Ultima 4 which took me about 2 months playing every day after school. This
was in 1985. Once the game was over, it was back to the real world for a
while for a "reality check". With WoW, the game never ever ends and you can
never obtain or attain the highest levels of gear and proficiencies no
matter how many thousands of hours you commit to it. If you are "casual"
then you might have a great social time, but your progress will stop hard at
some point. The amount of time commitment during what is unfortunately
called the "end game" stage increases exponentially and this is a common
formula among most MMORPGs.
Are the games fun, yes of course! But, video game addiction is as real as
alchoholism or gambling addiction. I've met hundreds of in-game addicts. If
there is someone in your life who has stopped eating, bathing, or leaving
the house, you have a right to be concerned (even if they are just reading
books I would argue). Should you force your will on others? No way. Anyone
who known an alchoholic will tell you the first step to recovery is
recognizing you have a problem. Tell your husband/wife/kids that you miss
them and the types of interactions you used to have together. Ultimately
there needs to be a balance between the video game and the people, places,
things and SELF that you care about in your real world.
There is nothing at all bad about playing WoW. It is an incredible world to
explore. I have been back to Azeroth a few times in the past 2-3 years but I
don't find it very fun because I'm not willing to put in the time to
"succeed" and my friends are all once again in the real world. I would
encourage people to try out WoW even though I wasn't able to hold my
conjured glacier water and murloc fin soup.
~Dan
Some links for you. They are not mine, but might help someone.
http://www.olganon.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_addiction
and I strongly believe in supporting my kids' and wife's passions. I'll also
say that some of you have never met someone suffering from video game
addiction. Some people (I'm one of them) have seriously addictive
mentalities and find the virtual world such an incredible escape from the
"real" world that they completely check out. The built-in systems of
activities and small rewards are more than entertaining to some and become
an extremely addictive driver of behavior. There are countless documented
cases of people losing their jobs, failing school (I know, who cares right?)
and even divorced due to video game addiction and the resulting neglect of
everything and everyone around. People have even died from starvation or
malnutrition while playing WoW, LotR, Everquest, UO, etc.
I'll go out on a limb here and hopefully add some credibility to my story by
saying that my wife and I played WoW for almost 2 years together. We
experienced at least 8-10 hours of "joy" every day during that period. I
played at work, we played together at home, we played when the kids were
sleeping, awake, eating, you name it. The leveling, resource gathering,
quests, raids, and rep grinding were all we thought about day and night. We
lost touch with every real world friend we had known save one, despite how
much they expressed concern for us. Between me and my wife we gained 100
pounds. It really didn't matter because there was always another purple epic
sword or staff our mount or raid boss to conquer. One day we left the water
running while playing and the entire upstairs of our house filled with
water. When we got up from playing at 4am (I had to be at work at 7am), the
carpet in our office was like a marsh. We only played 6 months more after
that happened.
As a kid, I played dozens of similar games, the most notable being the
Ultima 1 - Ultima 8 series. The difference with these games is that they all
had an ending where the game can be beaten or won. The last game I "won" was
Ultima 4 which took me about 2 months playing every day after school. This
was in 1985. Once the game was over, it was back to the real world for a
while for a "reality check". With WoW, the game never ever ends and you can
never obtain or attain the highest levels of gear and proficiencies no
matter how many thousands of hours you commit to it. If you are "casual"
then you might have a great social time, but your progress will stop hard at
some point. The amount of time commitment during what is unfortunately
called the "end game" stage increases exponentially and this is a common
formula among most MMORPGs.
Are the games fun, yes of course! But, video game addiction is as real as
alchoholism or gambling addiction. I've met hundreds of in-game addicts. If
there is someone in your life who has stopped eating, bathing, or leaving
the house, you have a right to be concerned (even if they are just reading
books I would argue). Should you force your will on others? No way. Anyone
who known an alchoholic will tell you the first step to recovery is
recognizing you have a problem. Tell your husband/wife/kids that you miss
them and the types of interactions you used to have together. Ultimately
there needs to be a balance between the video game and the people, places,
things and SELF that you care about in your real world.
There is nothing at all bad about playing WoW. It is an incredible world to
explore. I have been back to Azeroth a few times in the past 2-3 years but I
don't find it very fun because I'm not willing to put in the time to
"succeed" and my friends are all once again in the real world. I would
encourage people to try out WoW even though I wasn't able to hold my
conjured glacier water and murloc fin soup.
~Dan
Some links for you. They are not mine, but might help someone.
http://www.olganon.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_addiction
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Faith Void <littlemsvoid@...> wrote:
> What I am reading is that you are suggesting that:
>
> A) People you don't know should place arbitrary limits on their children's
> activities because of your fear that they might become so full of joy with
> a
> game that they will want nothing else when they grown up.
>
> B) That there is something wrong with your husband because he doesn't like
> his job more than a video game.
>
> C) That 10 hours of joy is bad if it is in front of a video game.
>
> D) That you feel like their is something lacking in your husband's life due
> to playing video games so much as a child.
>
> E) You are attempting to control an adult that you choose to marry.
>
> a) I feel like placing limits is more likely to create an imbalance that
> will last until adulthood. I think arbitrary limits inhibit a respectful
> trusting relationship between two people. I prefer to celebrate my
> children's and my husband's passions and interests. I find that
> participating in or sharing the joy brings more joy and friendship and
> love.
>
> b) Perhaps your husband needs a more fullfilling job. One that brings joy
> to
> him instead of sucks it from him. Perhaps the activities that you are
> talking about are less interesting than the game he loves. My husband LOVES
> WoW. He plays frequently. He also loves his work and family. Because he
> loves and enjoys them all he finds balance.
>
> c) If someone found 10 straight hours of joy while reading would that be
> ok?
> If someone found 10 straight hours of joy at church would that be ok? If
> someone found 10 hours of joy working on physics problems? Why would one
> passion or pursuit be better than another?
>
> d) You husband is exactly who he needs to be right now at this moment.
> Regret is a waste of energy and a vacuum to joy. Sure my life would have
> been different if xy or z didn;t happen. Reality is that xyz did happen, it
> shaped who I am. I like who I am. If I regret those things I am expressing
> a
> dissatisfaction with who I AM. Instead if I don't like something I am doing
> I changer that.
>
> e) I thing trying to control your husband (or children) is just going to
> cause resentment and anger. Perhaps you could find a way to celebrate his
> video game obsession. Bring him special food while he plays, sit next to
> him
> and rub his shoulders that must be stressed from working a job he doesn't
> love.
>
> Faith
>
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Brenna Shugarts <bshugarts@...<bshugarts%40yahoo.com>
> >wrote:
>
>
> > oh, ladies PLEASE limit your childs time on this game. My husband has
> > been addicted to it for years! i can't get him off of it. he looks for
> ways
> > to stay home from activities/work so he can play. I have seen him
> actually
> > sit for 10 hrs!!! there also was a virus on one of the scripts & it fried
> > our last computer. (about 3 months ago) Hope you all don't think i am
> being
> > to nosy just conserned. i often wonder what he could have done w/ his
> life
> > had he not spent so much time on the games. I know as a mother noone
> wants
> > to say that about there children. Love & Light. Brenna
> >
> > reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the
> > angels know of us.
> >
> > -
> >
>
> --
> http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
> www.bearthmama.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sue Roenke
Are there any unschoolers in the Hydraxis realm? My 16 yo daughter is on that realm and I would love to have her connect with other homeschoolers.
Sue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brenna Shugarts
he refuses to accept his addiction & no his parents did not support him. His father was a major acholoic & mother too busy w/ step father & self help seminars to worry about him. Good Luck to you & what you decide w/ it.
reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the angels know of us.
reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the angels know of us.
--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: World of Warcraft ( was: Advice needed)
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 1:24 PM
On Jan 15, 2009, at 5:13 AM, Brenna Shugarts wrote:
> oh, ladies PLEASE limit your childs time on this game. My husband
> has been addicted to it for years! i can't get him off of it.
> he looks for ways to stay home from activities/work so he can play.
> I have seen him actually sit for 10 hrs!!! there also was a virus on
> one of the scripts & it fried our last computer. (about 3 months
> ago) Hope you all don't think i am being to nosy just conserned. i
> often wonder what he could have done w/ his life had he not spent so
> much time on the games. I know as a mother noone wants to say that
> about there children. Love & Light. Brenna
What does your husband have to say about this?
Also, was HE brought up by parents who supported his interests?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
Dan
were you unschooled?
were you fully nurtured and supported by your parents as a child?
This is a board for unschoolers and those on the path towards unschooling.
We are aiming towards respectful parenting and loving partnerships. Stopping
children from playing video games because they might become addicts is as
ridiculous as stopping your children from eating because they might become
over eaters. What one might to do is respectful guide their children towards
balance, allowing their internal pendulum to swing a little.
Faith
were you unschooled?
were you fully nurtured and supported by your parents as a child?
This is a board for unschoolers and those on the path towards unschooling.
We are aiming towards respectful parenting and loving partnerships. Stopping
children from playing video games because they might become addicts is as
ridiculous as stopping your children from eating because they might become
over eaters. What one might to do is respectful guide their children towards
balance, allowing their internal pendulum to swing a little.
Faith
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Dan Lake <danthedad@...> wrote:
> I'm not going to say that someone should impose limits on another
> person
> and I strongly believe in supporting my kids' and wife's passions. I'll
> also
> say that some of you have never met someone suffering from video game
> addiction. Some people (I'm one of them) have seriously addictive
> mentalities and find the virtual world such an incredible escape from the
> "real" world that they completely check out. The built-in systems of
> activities and small rewards are more than entertaining to some and become
> an extremely addictive driver of behavior. There are countless documented
> cases of people losing their jobs, failing school (I know, who cares
> right?)
> and even divorced due to video game addiction and the resulting neglect of
> everything and everyone around. People have even died from starvation or
> malnutrition while playing WoW, LotR, Everquest, UO, etc.
>
> I'll go out on a limb here and hopefully add some credibility to my story
> by
> saying that my wife and I played WoW for almost 2 years together. We
> experienced at least 8-10 hours of "joy" every day during that period. I
> played at work, we played together at home, we played when the kids were
> sleeping, awake, eating, you name it. The leveling, resource gathering,
> quests, raids, and rep grinding were all we thought about day and night. We
> lost touch with every real world friend we had known save one, despite how
> much they expressed concern for us. Between me and my wife we gained 100
> pounds. It really didn't matter because there was always another purple
> epic
> sword or staff our mount or raid boss to conquer. One day we left the water
> running while playing and the entire upstairs of our house filled with
> water. When we got up from playing at 4am (I had to be at work at 7am), the
> carpet in our office was like a marsh. We only played 6 months more after
> that happened.
>
> As a kid, I played dozens of similar games, the most notable being the
> Ultima 1 - Ultima 8 series. The difference with these games is that they
> all
> had an ending where the game can be beaten or won. The last game I "won"
> was
> Ultima 4 which took me about 2 months playing every day after school. This
> was in 1985. Once the game was over, it was back to the real world for a
> while for a "reality check". With WoW, the game never ever ends and you can
> never obtain or attain the highest levels of gear and proficiencies no
> matter how many thousands of hours you commit to it. If you are "casual"
> then you might have a great social time, but your progress will stop hard
> at
> some point. The amount of time commitment during what is unfortunately
> called the "end game" stage increases exponentially and this is a common
> formula among most MMORPGs.
>
> Are the games fun, yes of course! But, video game addiction is as real as
> alchoholism or gambling addiction. I've met hundreds of in-game addicts. If
> there is someone in your life who has stopped eating, bathing, or leaving
> the house, you have a right to be concerned (even if they are just reading
> books I would argue). Should you force your will on others? No way. Anyone
> who known an alchoholic will tell you the first step to recovery is
> recognizing you have a problem. Tell your husband/wife/kids that you miss
> them and the types of interactions you used to have together. Ultimately
> there needs to be a balance between the video game and the people, places,
> things and SELF that you care about in your real world.
>
> There is nothing at all bad about playing WoW. It is an incredible world to
> explore. I have been back to Azeroth a few times in the past 2-3 years but
> I
> don't find it very fun because I'm not willing to put in the time to
> "succeed" and my friends are all once again in the real world. I would
> encourage people to try out WoW even though I wasn't able to hold my
> conjured glacier water and murloc fin soup.
>
> ~Dan
>
> Some links for you. They are not mine, but might help someone.
> http://www.olganon.org/
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_addiction
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jill Parmer
Hey Sue,
We are! We started on that realm (alliance characters) when we first
got WoW because it was the suggested realm. My dd (Addi 14), plays
there mostly, but I get on every now and again. Her main characters
are: Tiibby (two i's) (36 gnome warrior), Flahdy (46 Nelf hunter).
~Jill
We are! We started on that realm (alliance characters) when we first
got WoW because it was the suggested realm. My dd (Addi 14), plays
there mostly, but I get on every now and again. Her main characters
are: Tiibby (two i's) (36 gnome warrior), Flahdy (46 Nelf hunter).
~Jill
On Jan 15, 2009, at 3:32 PM, Sue Roenke wrote:
> Are there any unschoolers in the Hydraxis realm? My 16 yo daughter
> is on that realm and I would love to have her connect with other
> homeschoolers.
> Sue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jodi Bezzola
--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Brenna Shugarts <bshugarts@...> wrote:
~~PLEASE limit your childs time on this game. My husband has been addicted to it for years! i can't get him off of it. he looks for ways to stay home from activities/work so he can play. I have seen him actually sit for 10 hrs!!! there also was a virus on one of the scripts & it fried our last computer. (about 3 months ago) Hope you all don't think i am being to nosy just conserned. i often wonder what he could have done w/ his life had he not spent so much time on the games. I know as a mother noone wants to say that about there children.~~
To me, this really highlights the concept of working through the fears we as parents may have, in order to fully respect and support the interests of our kids.
Comparing the results of growing up in an alcoholic, chaotic, home to being raised in a peaceful, joyful, mindful, respectful, home, is no more helpful than comparing apples to bananas. This kind of comparing just feeds the fear we are trying to understand and heal, and in turn offer our kids something better. I still have a little (very unhelpful!) voice in my head that comes to life every time my girls have watched more than about 3 hours of tv at once, and I'm still a work in progress. I don't know about you, but my kids having *more* of everything than what I received as a child (respect, freedom, etc.), *really* pushes my buttons sometimes!
The people on this list who have older kids, and who have parented mindfully, are the ones to look to for what results come from mindful, respectful, unschooly parenting. Let's ask Joyce, and Kelly, and Ren, and Rue, and a host of others here with older kids what the results are - I have a feeling their kids are turning out just fine :).
Jodi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen Swanay
My husband, myself, and my kids 12 and 10, all play Star Wars Galaxies
Online. We have multiple addictive personalities in our genograms. We
still manage to eat and get the house work done.
If you want to be a slug and do nothing....you'll find ways to do that.
Don't blame a game or a game system for your faults and lack of will. These
"drama and danger" stories have the stench of urban legend about them.
People died from malnutrition from playing WoW? Where's that story?
Where's the death certificate? I want to see that.
Karen
To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it. ~Confucius
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Online. We have multiple addictive personalities in our genograms. We
still manage to eat and get the house work done.
If you want to be a slug and do nothing....you'll find ways to do that.
Don't blame a game or a game system for your faults and lack of will. These
"drama and danger" stories have the stench of urban legend about them.
People died from malnutrition from playing WoW? Where's that story?
Where's the death certificate? I want to see that.
Karen
To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it. ~Confucius
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Jan 15, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Brenna Shugarts wrote:
weeks and my kids are all three happy and productive and successful
and living really good lives.
One thing you might want to consider, though, is that the life of an
unschooled child is one in which there is a rich tapestry of
experience offered and tremendous support provided by the parents.
Playing video games in that environment is not escapism, it is a
choice to do something for the love of it. Moving positively toward
something (choosing to play video games for the pure joy of it) is
very very different than moving away from something (playing video
games to avoid facing problems in one's life).
Still, I feel for you and I'm really sorry you're facing such problems.
-pam
> he refuses to accept his addiction & no his parents did not supportI don't need good luck. My youngest child is going to be 18 in two
> him. His father was a major acholoic & mother too busy w/ step
> father & self help seminars to worry about him. Good Luck to you &
> what you decide w/ it.
>
weeks and my kids are all three happy and productive and successful
and living really good lives.
One thing you might want to consider, though, is that the life of an
unschooled child is one in which there is a rich tapestry of
experience offered and tremendous support provided by the parents.
Playing video games in that environment is not escapism, it is a
choice to do something for the love of it. Moving positively toward
something (choosing to play video games for the pure joy of it) is
very very different than moving away from something (playing video
games to avoid facing problems in one's life).
Still, I feel for you and I'm really sorry you're facing such problems.
-pam
Dan Lake
Karen,
Here is your link. Looks like it was Starcraft and not WoW, sorry about
that. I know, it's an isolated instance. He had all the joy he could handle
I guess.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4137782.stm
Faith,
My education mostly predates unschooling. I was not "nurtured and supported"
by my dad who died in 1983 and my mom who has not spoken to me since our
first child was born in 2001. I don't blame them and I don't blame WoW
either. I had some issues to work through that it sounds like your kids will
never know. Despite all of that, there are in fact people (~4% of WoW
players) who play more than 80 hours per week. Probably most of them are
escaping something as I did to some degree. Probably none of them are
unschooled.
Nowhere did I or would I discourage people from playing WoW or other games.
But for some people on here to say that there is no such thing as gaming
addiction, internet addiction is ridiculous. Further, to call me names for
sharing a personal experience that is obviously not my proudest time doesn't
feel unschooly to me either.
~Dan
Here is your link. Looks like it was Starcraft and not WoW, sorry about
that. I know, it's an isolated instance. He had all the joy he could handle
I guess.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4137782.stm
Faith,
My education mostly predates unschooling. I was not "nurtured and supported"
by my dad who died in 1983 and my mom who has not spoken to me since our
first child was born in 2001. I don't blame them and I don't blame WoW
either. I had some issues to work through that it sounds like your kids will
never know. Despite all of that, there are in fact people (~4% of WoW
players) who play more than 80 hours per week. Probably most of them are
escaping something as I did to some degree. Probably none of them are
unschooled.
Nowhere did I or would I discourage people from playing WoW or other games.
But for some people on here to say that there is no such thing as gaming
addiction, internet addiction is ridiculous. Further, to call me names for
sharing a personal experience that is obviously not my proudest time doesn't
feel unschooly to me either.
~Dan
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 6:12 PM, Karen Swanay <luvbullbreeds@...>wrote:
> My husband, myself, and my kids 12 and 10, all play Star Wars Galaxies
> Online. We have multiple addictive personalities in our genograms. We
> still manage to eat and get the house work done.
>
> If you want to be a slug and do nothing....you'll find ways to do that.
> Don't blame a game or a game system for your faults and lack of will. These
> "drama and danger" stories have the stench of urban legend about them.
> People died from malnutrition from playing WoW? Where's that story?
> Where's the death certificate? I want to see that.
>
> Karen
> To be wronged is nothing unless you continue to remember it. ~Confucius
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dan Lake
Thanks Pam, this is basically the point I was trying to make. Escapism is
often the cause of addiction. Unschooling, although wonderful is not magic.
It's still possible that kids could become unhappy or depressed and escape
into drugs, video games, or something else entirely. If done properly,
unschooling should give all the options of the world and alleviate most
sources of unhappiness in a typical child's life (bullying, homework, fear
of failure, ...). But to say, "that could never happen to my child" is naive
and insulting to kids who might really be suffering from depression or other
issues beyond the direct visibility of the parents.
~Dan
often the cause of addiction. Unschooling, although wonderful is not magic.
It's still possible that kids could become unhappy or depressed and escape
into drugs, video games, or something else entirely. If done properly,
unschooling should give all the options of the world and alleviate most
sources of unhappiness in a typical child's life (bullying, homework, fear
of failure, ...). But to say, "that could never happen to my child" is naive
and insulting to kids who might really be suffering from depression or other
issues beyond the direct visibility of the parents.
~Dan
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
>
> On Jan 15, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Brenna Shugarts wrote:
>
> > he refuses to accept his addiction & no his parents did not support
> > him. His father was a major acholoic & mother too busy w/ step
> > father & self help seminars to worry about him. Good Luck to you &
> > what you decide w/ it.
> >
>
> I don't need good luck. My youngest child is going to be 18 in two
> weeks and my kids are all three happy and productive and successful
> and living really good lives.
>
> One thing you might want to consider, though, is that the life of an
> unschooled child is one in which there is a rich tapestry of
> experience offered and tremendous support provided by the parents.
> Playing video games in that environment is not escapism, it is a
> choice to do something for the love of it. Moving positively toward
> something (choosing to play video games for the pure joy of it) is
> very very different than moving away from something (playing video
> games to avoid facing problems in one's life).
>
> Still, I feel for you and I'm really sorry you're facing such problems.
>
> -pam
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:14 PM, Dan Lake wrote:
depression. The behavior is a symptom not a cause. Removing what is
used as an alleviator doesn't remove the cause.
In fact if there's enough fear and control from the parents it might
cause depression. Feeling out of control and fearful are certainly
good reasons for escape.
An unschooling parent shouldn't assume escapism from behavior. A
unschooling parent should be involved in their child's world enough
to know what's going on.
connected to their kids.
If you're reading the surface of the responses and seeing people
*only* say "Let your kids play as much as they want," you need to
read more and deeper. The goal is to help kids be happy. Happy isn't
achieved when parents detach from kids to let them do whatever they
want. That's neglect. Happy is helped by remaining connected.
Connected might be playing with them, learning enough to have
conversations, bringing them food, finding other kids to play with,
helping them find cheats and walkthroughs on line, buying the gaming
magazines and guides, going to conventions, helping them take breaks
at a convenient pause point to go to the bathroom, and for kids who
are carrying the tension of play into life a parent can help them
become more aware and find strategies to sidetrack it before it grows
so large they can't handle it. And so on.
Unschooling and mindful parenting is *very* hands on.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Unschooling, although wonderful is not magic.But keeping kids away from games won't prevent escape or prevent
> It's still possible that kids could become unhappy or depressed and
> escape
> into drugs, video games, or something else entirely.
depression. The behavior is a symptom not a cause. Removing what is
used as an alleviator doesn't remove the cause.
In fact if there's enough fear and control from the parents it might
cause depression. Feeling out of control and fearful are certainly
good reasons for escape.
An unschooling parent shouldn't assume escapism from behavior. A
unschooling parent should be involved in their child's world enough
to know what's going on.
> But to say, "that could never happen to my child" is naiveWhich is why we discuss relationships so much and help parents stay
> and insulting to kids who might really be suffering from depression
> or other
> issues beyond the direct visibility of the parents.
connected to their kids.
If you're reading the surface of the responses and seeing people
*only* say "Let your kids play as much as they want," you need to
read more and deeper. The goal is to help kids be happy. Happy isn't
achieved when parents detach from kids to let them do whatever they
want. That's neglect. Happy is helped by remaining connected.
Connected might be playing with them, learning enough to have
conversations, bringing them food, finding other kids to play with,
helping them find cheats and walkthroughs on line, buying the gaming
magazines and guides, going to conventions, helping them take breaks
at a convenient pause point to go to the bathroom, and for kids who
are carrying the tension of play into life a parent can help them
become more aware and find strategies to sidetrack it before it grows
so large they can't handle it. And so on.
Unschooling and mindful parenting is *very* hands on.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 15, 2009, at 10:06 PM, Dan Lake wrote:
devoid of it.
*Why* did he play to the point of death? The game didn't do it. It
was whatever was going on in his life that drove him to want to
commit suicide.
It muddles thinking to see two identical surface behaviors (many
hours of game playing) and assume there's a connection. What is
causing the behavior is the key, not the behavior itself.
We can't take away everything that someone might use to commit
suicide! To prevent suicide people need to get to the root causes.
It's possible if there were no video games he wouldn't have had the
courage to kill himself another way. But should society's inability
to support someone who is spiraling down into depression mean we
should deprive millions of people who happily play games because they
enjoy them?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Here is your link. Looks like it was Starcraft and not WoW, sorryI'd say he had little joy and was escaping from a life that was
> about
> that. I know, it's an isolated instance. He had all the joy he
> could handle
> I guess.
devoid of it.
*Why* did he play to the point of death? The game didn't do it. It
was whatever was going on in his life that drove him to want to
commit suicide.
It muddles thinking to see two identical surface behaviors (many
hours of game playing) and assume there's a connection. What is
causing the behavior is the key, not the behavior itself.
We can't take away everything that someone might use to commit
suicide! To prevent suicide people need to get to the root causes.
It's possible if there were no video games he wouldn't have had the
courage to kill himself another way. But should society's inability
to support someone who is spiraling down into depression mean we
should deprive millions of people who happily play games because they
enjoy them?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brenna Shugarts
Dan... Thank you... you said it beautifully. Brenna
reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the angels know of us.
reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the angels know of us.
--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Dan Lake <danthedad@...> wrote:
From: Dan Lake <danthedad@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: World of Warcraft ( was: Advice needed)
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 3:10 PM
I'm not going to say that someone should impose limits on another person
and I strongly believe in supporting my kids' and wife's passions. I'll also
say that some of you have never met someone suffering from video game
addiction. Some people (I'm one of them) have seriously addictive
mentalities and find the virtual world such an incredible escape from the
"real" world that they completely check out. The built-in systems of
activities and small rewards are more than entertaining to some and become
an extremely addictive driver of behavior. There are countless documented
cases of people losing their jobs, failing school (I know, who cares right?)
and even divorced due to video game addiction and the resulting neglect of
everything and everyone around. People have even died from starvation or
malnutrition while playing WoW, LotR, Everquest, UO, etc.
I'll go out on a limb here and hopefully add some credibility to my story by
saying that my wife and I played WoW for almost 2 years together. We
experienced at least 8-10 hours of "joy" every day during that period. I
played at work, we played together at home, we played when the kids were
sleeping, awake, eating, you name it. The leveling, resource gathering,
quests, raids, and rep grinding were all we thought about day and night. We
lost touch with every real world friend we had known save one, despite how
much they expressed concern for us. Between me and my wife we gained 100
pounds. It really didn't matter because there was always another purple epic
sword or staff our mount or raid boss to conquer. One day we left the water
running while playing and the entire upstairs of our house filled with
water. When we got up from playing at 4am (I had to be at work at 7am), the
carpet in our office was like a marsh. We only played 6 months more after
that happened.
As a kid, I played dozens of similar games, the most notable being the
Ultima 1 - Ultima 8 series. The difference with these games is that they all
had an ending where the game can be beaten or won. The last game I "won" was
Ultima 4 which took me about 2 months playing every day after school. This
was in 1985. Once the game was over, it was back to the real world for a
while for a "reality check". With WoW, the game never ever ends and you can
never obtain or attain the highest levels of gear and proficiencies no
matter how many thousands of hours you commit to it. If you are "casual"
then you might have a great social time, but your progress will stop hard at
some point. The amount of time commitment during what is unfortunately
called the "end game" stage increases exponentially and this is a common
formula among most MMORPGs.
Are the games fun, yes of course! But, video game addiction is as real as
alchoholism or gambling addiction. I've met hundreds of in-game addicts. If
there is someone in your life who has stopped eating, bathing, or leaving
the house, you have a right to be concerned (even if they are just reading
books I would argue). Should you force your will on others? No way. Anyone
who known an alchoholic will tell you the first step to recovery is
recognizing you have a problem. Tell your husband/wife/ kids that you miss
them and the types of interactions you used to have together. Ultimately
there needs to be a balance between the video game and the people, places,
things and SELF that you care about in your real world.
There is nothing at all bad about playing WoW. It is an incredible world to
explore. I have been back to Azeroth a few times in the past 2-3 years but I
don't find it very fun because I'm not willing to put in the time to
"succeed" and my friends are all once again in the real world. I would
encourage people to try out WoW even though I wasn't able to hold my
conjured glacier water and murloc fin soup.
~Dan
Some links for you. They are not mine, but might help someone.
http://www.olganon. org/
http://en.wikipedia .org/wiki/ Video_game_ addiction
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 10:03 AM, Faith Void <littlemsvoid@ gmail.com> wrote:
> What I am reading is that you are suggesting that:
>
> A) People you don't know should place arbitrary limits on their children's
> activities because of your fear that they might become so full of joy with
> a
> game that they will want nothing else when they grown up.
>
> B) That there is something wrong with your husband because he doesn't like
> his job more than a video game.
>
> C) That 10 hours of joy is bad if it is in front of a video game.
>
> D) That you feel like their is something lacking in your husband's life due
> to playing video games so much as a child.
>
> E) You are attempting to control an adult that you choose to marry.
>
> a) I feel like placing limits is more likely to create an imbalance that
> will last until adulthood. I think arbitrary limits inhibit a respectful
> trusting relationship between two people. I prefer to celebrate my
> children's and my husband's passions and interests. I find that
> participating in or sharing the joy brings more joy and friendship and
> love.
>
> b) Perhaps your husband needs a more fullfilling job. One that brings joy
> to
> him instead of sucks it from him. Perhaps the activities that you are
> talking about are less interesting than the game he loves. My husband LOVES
> WoW. He plays frequently. He also loves his work and family. Because he
> loves and enjoys them all he finds balance.
>
> c) If someone found 10 straight hours of joy while reading would that be
> ok?
> If someone found 10 straight hours of joy at church would that be ok? If
> someone found 10 hours of joy working on physics problems? Why would one
> passion or pursuit be better than another?
>
> d) You husband is exactly who he needs to be right now at this moment.
> Regret is a waste of energy and a vacuum to joy. Sure my life would have
> been different if xy or z didn;t happen. Reality is that xyz did happen, it
> shaped who I am. I like who I am. If I regret those things I am expressing
> a
> dissatisfaction with who I AM. Instead if I don't like something I am doing
> I changer that.
>
> e) I thing trying to control your husband (or children) is just going to
> cause resentment and anger. Perhaps you could find a way to celebrate his
> video game obsession. Bring him special food while he plays, sit next to
> him
> and rub his shoulders that must be stressed from working a job he doesn't
> love.
>
> Faith
>
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 8:13 AM, Brenna Shugarts <bshugarts@yahoo. com<bshugarts%40yahoo. com>
> >wrote:
>
>
> > oh, ladies PLEASE limit your childs time on this game. My husband has
> > been addicted to it for years! i can't get him off of it. he looks for
> ways
> > to stay home from activities/work so he can play. I have seen him
> actually
> > sit for 10 hrs!!! there also was a virus on one of the scripts & it fried
> > our last computer. (about 3 months ago) Hope you all don't think i am
> being
> > to nosy just conserned. i often wonder what he could have done w/ his
> life
> > had he not spent so much time on the games. I know as a mother noone
> wants
> > to say that about there children. Love & Light. Brenna
> >
> > reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the
> > angels know of us.
> >
> > -
> >
>
> --
> http://faithvoid. blogspot. com/
> www.bearthmama. com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Brenna Shugarts
Once again to each his own & i have a 23 yr old who hates his father because his father was absentee his whole life. My 11 & 12 yr old girls are just as well adjusted as your wonderful children are except that they have an absentee father.Seems that maybe I have touched a sensitive spot for some, or people just really have to much time on there hands. it was just a hamless warning. Please read Dans info if you do not believe that it can become a real addiction. There are countless website available about this info as well. Not saying no video games just becareful.Love & Light brenna
reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the angels know of us.
reputation is what men & women think of us. character is what God & the angels know of us.
--- On Thu, 1/15/09, Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
From: Pamela Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: World of Warcraft ( was: Advice needed)
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 9:49 PM
On Jan 15, 2009, at 4:16 PM, Brenna Shugarts wrote:
> he refuses to accept his addiction & no his parents did not support
> him. His father was a major acholoic & mother too busy w/ step
> father & self help seminars to worry about him. Good Luck to you &
> what you decide w/ it.
>
I don't need good luck. My youngest child is going to be 18 in two
weeks and my kids are all three happy and productive and successful
and living really good lives.
One thing you might want to consider, though, is that the life of an
unschooled child is one in which there is a rich tapestry of
experience offered and tremendous support provided by the parents.
Playing video games in that environment is not escapism, it is a
choice to do something for the love of it. Moving positively toward
something (choosing to play video games for the pure joy of it) is
very very different than moving away from something (playing video
games to avoid facing problems in one's life).
Still, I feel for you and I'm really sorry you're facing such problems.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Faith Void
I am wondering why you/we as a culture call it gaming addiction? To me that
sounds like blame instead of taking the responsibility for your choice of
using escapism to avoid life's issues for a while. I was abused as a child,
raped as my first sexual experience and I have an anxiety and personality
disorder. I do not use these as an excuse for dealing with my issues and
moving forward to be the best parent I can for my children. I do not use
fear as a reason for controlling my child. I have addiction and alcoholism
in my family as well. I could go on, but what i am getting at is it is an
excuse to use the word addiction.
Faith
sounds like blame instead of taking the responsibility for your choice of
using escapism to avoid life's issues for a while. I was abused as a child,
raped as my first sexual experience and I have an anxiety and personality
disorder. I do not use these as an excuse for dealing with my issues and
moving forward to be the best parent I can for my children. I do not use
fear as a reason for controlling my child. I have addiction and alcoholism
in my family as well. I could go on, but what i am getting at is it is an
excuse to use the word addiction.
Faith
On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 10:06 PM, Dan Lake <danthedad@...> wrote:
> Karen,
> Here is your link. Looks like it was Starcraft and not WoW, sorry about
> that. I know, it's an isolated instance. He had all the joy he could handle
> I guess.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4137782.stm
>
> Faith,
> My education mostly predates unschooling. I was not "nurtured and
> supported"
> by my dad who died in 1983 and my mom who has not spoken to me since our
> first child was born in 2001. I don't blame them and I don't blame WoW
> either. I had some issues to work through that it sounds like your kids
> will
> never know. Despite all of that, there are in fact people (~4% of WoW
> players) who play more than 80 hours per week. Probably most of them are
> escaping something as I did to some degree. Probably none of them are
> unschooled.
>
> Nowhere did I or would I discourage people from playing WoW or other games.
> But for some people on here to say that there is no such thing as gaming
> addiction, internet addiction is ridiculous. Further, to call me names for
> sharing a personal experience that is obviously not my proudest time
> doesn't
> feel unschooly to me either.
>
> ~Da
>
>
>
>
--
http://faithvoid.blogspot.com/
www.bearthmama.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aidansutherland
--- In [email protected], "raisingexplorers"
<raisingexplorers@...> wrote:
take a prep class. However, I have so rarely come across any occasions
where it did me any good, I really question why I did it at all. I
mean, if he wants to go to college, I think he should do it. But a GED
is not much of a goal in itself because as an adult, no-one questions
whether I finished high school or not. There are so few jobs where
they are going to check and see if you graduated high school. What
does he see doing in the future he's imagining? If it involves
anything with more requirements than grocery store cashier or factory
worker, you could help him to stop sweating the small stuff. Because
learning the kind of basic math they test for on the GED probably
won't be all that hard for him, and is just one step of the journey.
<raisingexplorers@...> wrote:
>now.
> > He know that I dropped out of school in 11th grade for medical
> reasons and took my GED and passed with flying colors. No prep or
> studying at all. But he is assuming that the GED has gotten harder
>I took my GED when I was 16, too. It really was easy, though I did
> I took my GED in either 1999 or 2000 and it wasn't hard. This was 2 or
> 3 years after I dropped out of school (where I was flunking everything
> anyhow), so plenty of time to forget almost everything. LOL
>
take a prep class. However, I have so rarely come across any occasions
where it did me any good, I really question why I did it at all. I
mean, if he wants to go to college, I think he should do it. But a GED
is not much of a goal in itself because as an adult, no-one questions
whether I finished high school or not. There are so few jobs where
they are going to check and see if you graduated high school. What
does he see doing in the future he's imagining? If it involves
anything with more requirements than grocery store cashier or factory
worker, you could help him to stop sweating the small stuff. Because
learning the kind of basic math they test for on the GED probably
won't be all that hard for him, and is just one step of the journey.