College = bad was: Opinions wanted
[email protected]
> Certain members of the unschooling community seem to feel that collegeI think the important thing is what a child wants to do in life. I have met several artists who went to college to get a "degree" and said that it was 4 wasted years in their lives. They learned squat that they didn't already know or they felt hindered by artistic limitations. I went to college for 5 years to study theatre arts and vocal music. I hated every subject except my theatre, music and psychology classes. Of course I also hated how those other subjects were taught (memorizations of long lists of historical dates or respewing literature professor's own words back to him with no room for free-thought). My own xh is a professional without ever having stepped foot inside an institute of "higher learning." He is one of the smartest people I know. All self-taught.
> is "bad" and this gives me pause; it may not be necessary or ideal for
> every child but you know what? I loved college, personally. So I think
> it is important to allow the child to chose, rather than specifically
> discouraging academic or non-academic pursuits.
Now having said that, I think it is important for children to have realistic expectations. They can't be a doctor (in today's society) without going to college and medical school (and serving an internship). They will have a hard time becoming a librarian without an MLS. Higher learning is probably needed for someone who wants to go into some science field.
I would love to see colleges or "institutes of higher learning" that catered to individuals rather than masses. For instance colleges of music that teach music to musicians rather than history, science, math, literature, and physical education. Colleges that teach dance to dancers. Universities of science to scientists. etc. And many of these fields could be combined. We just need to rethink how we teach. I wouldn't be opposed to saying, "You need X number of field related credits and 3-5 classes outside your field." But not say, "Oh you have to have 9 credits of history and 12 of literature and 6 of foreign language and 6 of psychology and mathematics at least up through calculus (I have never had to figure out the co-sine of anything since college!) and 12 in science to be a theatre major who wants to specialize in singing, acting and dancing. Blech!
>I'm probably guilty of this some as I type at 70+ wpm and don't use a spell check. I string words and phrases together when I e-mail and have had deliciously long run on sentences. My fingers can hardly keep up with my brain. I've even been to leave a few words out ;-) LOL!! And you never know that the person who has the poorest grammar skills won't be the one that can program circles around you or plays in an orchestra as first chair violin!
> It troubles me somewhat when I see people proudly proclaiming
> themselves to be radical unschoolers in posts full of misspellings and
> sentence fragments. Fortunately these are a minority of unschooling
> parents, and I tell myself that just as childen survive bab schools
> their children will survive their unschooling parents.
>Oh yes; and I always skip the prologue of The Scarlet Letter LOL!
> I personally do think that childen, when left to themselves, often
> choose pursuits that would confound the skeptics. I personally do feel
> the need to intervene every so often and assign a specific book that I
> know they can read though it might be a bit hard to start -- Kim by
> Rudyard Kipling was the last one.
>How do you feel that they are "behind" Behind still recognizes public or traditional schooling as the standard. Your children are probably right where they need to be for comprehension. My kids understand concepts of mathematics better than some of their schooled counterparts. And although it is one of my own fearful spots (what if my children don't get math!) I've tried to not get anxious because even my 6yo understand multiplication even if he doesn't know what multiplication is or what the "tables" are.
> Our particular sticking point is math, where they are falling somewhat
> behind. I do think an appreciation of algebra and calculus is a good
> thing,
> and it is one of those things like brushing your teeth whereWell, teeth-brushing isn't an option in our house. I have no guarantees that my kids got my xh's teeth rather than my teeth. My xh is 39 and has never had a cavity in his life! Doesn't even get plaque! I'm 40 and currently am missing 3 teeth that I am in the process of having fixed. Not from lack of brushing. I have wonderful dental hygeine. I have horrible dental genes. I have gorgeous gums (according to my dentist). My teeth are just brittle and break easily. I actually have better teeth than my mom and my grandmother had full dentures by the time she was my age!
> the benefit is not immediately apparent. Actually, if anyone has a
> suggestion on *that* (besides don't worry about it cause they wll when
> they are ready) then I might like to hear it.
>Labels are for people who are insecure with who they are (Can't remember who said that)
> Perhaps I should describe myself as a mixed or eclectic unschooler,
> but I have been around the mulberry bush with the politically correct
> on the various lists that I am not much interested in the labels
> anymore.
> To answer your husband's concern about college; my own difficultiesWhich doesn't say much for your average community college freshman's previous educational experience. :-) Think how much more ready your son will be in 2 more years. And in 2 years he may even have an idea of what he wants to focus on.
> along this line are that they tell me that my 14yo is too young and
> they won't even consider him until he's 16. Otherwise I'd say he's as
> ready as your average community college freshman, math problems and
> all.
I have a friend who has had 6 kids. 3 homeschooled and 3 that went to school at various times in their lives. Not one child went directly from "high school" to college. They all took a few years and went an experienced the world. One kid did missionary work and today is in her last year of seminary to become a UU minister. Another took odd jobs and opened her own health food store (which is doing well) and is a midwife apprentice. Another spent 2 years doing odd jobs and saved every penny he had and went touring Europe. He came home fluent in French and German and now supports himself through his art, tutoring kids in foreign language and playing the guitar. 2 more eventually went to college and did well because they knew what they wanted to do.
I'm not so sure that many 18yo's know what their passion may be and I also don't think that 4 years of "higher education" will help them decide. There is so much pressure to declare your major and get your coursework started.
Michelle
Dana Matt
They will have a hard time becoming a
were happy to have someone who could read, and would
never dream of asking for a MLS...just FYI ;)
Dana
formerly of Montana
now a (Belling)'hamster
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
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> librarian without an MLS.Most rural areas where I have worked as a librarian
were happy to have someone who could read, and would
never dream of asking for a MLS...just FYI ;)
Dana
formerly of Montana
now a (Belling)'hamster
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
dana tierney
I agree with much of this, actually. What I like about college is the
ability to meander through areas of knowledge. Much of that is
defeated if one takes the attitude that no, I can't take Native
American philosophy because I already have my elective for the year :)
Or whatever. But this is an attitude of the student, not necessarily
of the institution. I mean, the library is there. Nobody is going to
tell you you can only take out books that apply to your major.
To answer the specific question about math, a 14yo who has a sound
grasp of basic math but is a bit hazy on multiplication of fractions
and feels no need to get beyond very simple algebra (2x=4) is behind
in my opinion, not only with respect to where he would be in ps but
also with relation to his very advanced skills in other areas. And
yes, to say that he is at approximately the level of the average
college freshman says more about the average college freshman than it
does about his level of skill :)
At the time I had these discussions, I was concerned that he was
spending too much time on fundamentally sterile pursuits (Adult Swim,
Grand Theft Auto) and noticed that he seemed quite interested in my
graduate classes the couple of times I took him along.
I think I have already addressed the spelling thing elsewhere. While I
am as capable of a typo as the next person, it bothers me when people
who don't seem to know or care how to use language are the only
resource their children have for learning this. I think it's only fair
to the child to do a frank self-assessment and make resources
available in areas which are not our strengths.
Dana
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:49:34 -0400, wieldingwords@...
<wieldingwords@...> wrote:
ability to meander through areas of knowledge. Much of that is
defeated if one takes the attitude that no, I can't take Native
American philosophy because I already have my elective for the year :)
Or whatever. But this is an attitude of the student, not necessarily
of the institution. I mean, the library is there. Nobody is going to
tell you you can only take out books that apply to your major.
To answer the specific question about math, a 14yo who has a sound
grasp of basic math but is a bit hazy on multiplication of fractions
and feels no need to get beyond very simple algebra (2x=4) is behind
in my opinion, not only with respect to where he would be in ps but
also with relation to his very advanced skills in other areas. And
yes, to say that he is at approximately the level of the average
college freshman says more about the average college freshman than it
does about his level of skill :)
At the time I had these discussions, I was concerned that he was
spending too much time on fundamentally sterile pursuits (Adult Swim,
Grand Theft Auto) and noticed that he seemed quite interested in my
graduate classes the couple of times I took him along.
I think I have already addressed the spelling thing elsewhere. While I
am as capable of a typo as the next person, it bothers me when people
who don't seem to know or care how to use language are the only
resource their children have for learning this. I think it's only fair
to the child to do a frank self-assessment and make resources
available in areas which are not our strengths.
Dana
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 20:49:34 -0400, wieldingwords@...
<wieldingwords@...> wrote:
>
>
> > Certain members of the unschooling community seem to feel that college
> > is "bad" and this gives me pause; it may not be necessary or ideal for
> > every child but you know what? I loved college, personally. So I think
> > it is important to allow the child to chose, rather than specifically
> > discouraging academic or non-academic pursuits.
>
> I think the important thing is what a child wants to do in life. I have met several artists who went to college to get a "degree" and said that it was 4 wasted years in their lives. They learned squat that they didn't already know or they felt hindered by artistic limitations. I went to college for 5 years to study theatre arts and vocal music. I hated every subject except my theatre, music and psychology classes. Of course I also hated how those other subjects were taught (memorizations of long lists of historical dates or respewing literature professor's own words back to him with no room for free-thought). My own xh is a professional without ever having stepped foot inside an institute of "higher learning." He is one of the smartest people I know. All self-taught.
>
> Now having said that, I think it is important for children to have realistic expectations. They can't be a doctor (in today's society) without going to college and medical school (and serving an internship). They will have a hard time becoming a librarian without an MLS. Higher learning is probably needed for someone who wants to go into some science field.
>
> I would love to see colleges or "institutes of higher learning" that catered to individuals rather than masses. For instance colleges of music that teach music to musicians rather than history, science, math, literature, and physical education. Colleges that teach dance to dancers. Universities of science to scientists. etc. And many of these fields could be combined. We just need to rethink how we teach. I wouldn't be opposed to saying, "You need X number of field related credits and 3-5 classes outside your field." But not say, "Oh you have to have 9 credits of history and 12 of literature and 6 of foreign language and 6 of psychology and mathematics at least up through calculus (I have never had to figure out the co-sine of anything since college!) and 12 in science to be a theatre major who wants to specialize in singing, acting and dancing. Blech!
>
> >
> > It troubles me somewhat when I see people proudly proclaiming
> > themselves to be radical unschoolers in posts full of misspellings and
> > sentence fragments. Fortunately these are a minority of unschooling
> > parents, and I tell myself that just as childen survive bab schools
> > their children will survive their unschooling parents.
>
> I'm probably guilty of this some as I type at 70+ wpm and don't use a spell check. I string words and phrases together when I e-mail and have had deliciously long run on sentences. My fingers can hardly keep up with my brain. I've even been to leave a few words out ;-) LOL!! And you never know that the person who has the poorest grammar skills won't be the one that can program circles around you or plays in an orchestra as first chair violin!
>
> >
> > I personally do think that childen, when left to themselves, often
> > choose pursuits that would confound the skeptics. I personally do feel
> > the need to intervene every so often and assign a specific book that I
> > know they can read though it might be a bit hard to start -- Kim by
> > Rudyard Kipling was the last one.
>
> Oh yes; and I always skip the prologue of The Scarlet Letter LOL!
>
> >
> > Our particular sticking point is math, where they are falling somewhat
> > behind. I do think an appreciation of algebra and calculus is a good
> > thing,
>
> How do you feel that they are "behind" Behind still recognizes public or traditional schooling as the standard. Your children are probably right where they need to be for comprehension. My kids understand concepts of mathematics better than some of their schooled counterparts. And although it is one of my own fearful spots (what if my children don't get math!) I've tried to not get anxious because even my 6yo understand multiplication even if he doesn't know what multiplication is or what the "tables" are.
>
> > and it is one of those things like brushing your teeth where
> > the benefit is not immediately apparent. Actually, if anyone has a
> > suggestion on *that* (besides don't worry about it cause they wll when
> > they are ready) then I might like to hear it.
>
> Well, teeth-brushing isn't an option in our house. I have no guarantees that my kids got my xh's teeth rather than my teeth. My xh is 39 and has never had a cavity in his life! Doesn't even get plaque! I'm 40 and currently am missing 3 teeth that I am in the process of having fixed. Not from lack of brushing. I have wonderful dental hygeine. I have horrible dental genes. I have gorgeous gums (according to my dentist). My teeth are just brittle and break easily. I actually have better teeth than my mom and my grandmother had full dentures by the time she was my age!
>
> >
> > Perhaps I should describe myself as a mixed or eclectic unschooler,
> > but I have been around the mulberry bush with the politically correct
> > on the various lists that I am not much interested in the labels
> > anymore.
>
> Labels are for people who are insecure with who they are (Can't remember who said that)
>
> > To answer your husband's concern about college; my own difficulties
> > along this line are that they tell me that my 14yo is too young and
> > they won't even consider him until he's 16. Otherwise I'd say he's as
> > ready as your average community college freshman, math problems and
> > all.
>
> Which doesn't say much for your average community college freshman's previous educational experience. :-) Think how much more ready your son will be in 2 more years. And in 2 years he may even have an idea of what he wants to focus on.
>
> I have a friend who has had 6 kids. 3 homeschooled and 3 that went to school at various times in their lives. Not one child went directly from "high school" to college. They all took a few years and went an experienced the world. One kid did missionary work and today is in her last year of seminary to become a UU minister. Another took odd jobs and opened her own health food store (which is doing well) and is a midwife apprentice. Another spent 2 years doing odd jobs and saved every penny he had and went touring Europe. He came home fluent in French and German and now supports himself through his art, tutoring kids in foreign language and playing the guitar. 2 more eventually went to college and did well because they knew what they wanted to do.
>
> I'm not so sure that many 18yo's know what their passion may be and I also don't think that 4 years of "higher education" will help them decide. There is so much pressure to declare your major and get your coursework started.
>
> Michelle
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
pam sorooshian
On Oct 14, 2004, at 3:49 PM, dana tierney wrote:
and who keep their kids in a bubble where they are their kids' only
resource. Are you seriously saying that unschooling parents ARE their
kids' only resource for learning to use language?
bad spellers?
Your first post started out defensively: "Please note that I am not
interested in
suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
we do works for us."
There is no such thing as "politically correct unschooling" and your
use of that phrase was an insult and most people here undoubtedly
recognized it as such, but chose to ignore it and respond to the
content of your post anyway.
However, you also said that you've been told that you're not an
unschooler and, given your focus on your child being "behind" in math,
you're right that it doesn't sound like an unschooling approach. So -
I'm curious about what it is that makes you want to label yourself as
an unschooler? Why does that matter to you? What you do works for you.
You said so yourself. That's great.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> At the time I had these discussions, I was concerned that he wasWhat?
> spending too much time on fundamentally sterile pursuits (Adult Swim,
> Grand Theft Auto)
> and noticed that he seemed quite interested in myWell - how odd that you know people who claim to be radical unschoolers
> graduate classes the couple of times I took him along.
>
> I think I have already addressed the spelling thing elsewhere. While I
> am as capable of a typo as the next person, it bothers me when people
> who don't seem to know or care how to use language are the only
> resource their children have for learning this.
and who keep their kids in a bubble where they are their kids' only
resource. Are you seriously saying that unschooling parents ARE their
kids' only resource for learning to use language?
> I think it's only fairAnd - do you think unschooling parents don't do that because they are
> to the child to do a frank self-assessment and make resources
> available in areas which are not our strengths.
bad spellers?
Your first post started out defensively: "Please note that I am not
interested in
suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
we do works for us."
There is no such thing as "politically correct unschooling" and your
use of that phrase was an insult and most people here undoubtedly
recognized it as such, but chose to ignore it and respond to the
content of your post anyway.
However, you also said that you've been told that you're not an
unschooler and, given your focus on your child being "behind" in math,
you're right that it doesn't sound like an unschooling approach. So -
I'm curious about what it is that makes you want to label yourself as
an unschooler? Why does that matter to you? What you do works for you.
You said so yourself. That's great.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
dana tierney
Pam
Why does it matter to you what I call myself? I subscribe to the list.
Opinions were asked and I gave mine. Gave it, knowing that certain
people would get all bent out of shape over it.
For the record, it is not you that I am criticizing, and I know
nothing about you. As far as I know the people I am thinking of do not
subscribe to this list.
But here is the heart of the problem for me. When a discussion arose
of why (in a certain person's opinion) so many blacks were lazy and
preferred to go on welfare rather than get a job, she would not even
look at statistics that said otherwise. Because she was a radical
unschooler, and I guess that in her worldview statistics were
schoolish stuff.
This person lives on an isolated farm in Ohio. I know from discussions
of the portfolio she turned in (Ohio requirement) that her children's
exposure to math for the year was limited to the measurements involved
in building a deck. Wow.
Pardon me if I find this a bit light for teenagers. Frankly, I think
those children are being ill-served. Yeah, they could be equally
ill-served in a public school. Yeah yeah yeah, this is schoolish
concern for the level where they should be, sure. But if and when
those children become interested in academic pursuits they will have
several years of work to do if they want to major in anything but
English. Why limit their possibilities?
This is not a flaw of unschooling per se, but of how certain people
use it. I do think that their are things you should learn whose
usefulness is not immediately apparent. Like algebra. So I disagree
with those who would have the educational enterprise be entirely
child-directed. Child driven, sure, but parent guided is what works
for use.
What I am saying is directed to the woman who asked for opinions, and
all I am saying is -- there is a hole there. For those who are
unfamiliar with the quotation, it goes something like this:
I was walking down the street and I fell into a hole
Some people came and saw me and they helped me get out of that hole.
A few days later I was walking down the street
I fell into that hole again and again someone helped me get out
And then
I was walking down the street and I fell in the hole again
I could not believe I fell in that hole again
When I looked at the walls of the hole I saw how to get out
When I got out of the hole, I saw some people
I warned them about the hole
The next day I walked down a different street.
This quote may not quite apply to this particular situation as I don't
believe that I have been in this hole myself, but I like this
quotation, and that is what I am doing -- pointing out a hazard. There
is no reason to let fear of this hazard rule our lives or keep us from
teaching our children as we see fit. But if the hazard seems like a
danger into which we might fall...perhaps we should take heed and um,
maybe bring a ladder or a rope.
Pam, if you'd like to nitpick over typos or tell me that I am not
doing this properly, please feel free. I don't think I have much
respect for your opinion though. You take things as personal attacks
when they aren't meant to be and retaliate unnecessarily.
Be well and be happy
Dana
Why does it matter to you what I call myself? I subscribe to the list.
Opinions were asked and I gave mine. Gave it, knowing that certain
people would get all bent out of shape over it.
For the record, it is not you that I am criticizing, and I know
nothing about you. As far as I know the people I am thinking of do not
subscribe to this list.
But here is the heart of the problem for me. When a discussion arose
of why (in a certain person's opinion) so many blacks were lazy and
preferred to go on welfare rather than get a job, she would not even
look at statistics that said otherwise. Because she was a radical
unschooler, and I guess that in her worldview statistics were
schoolish stuff.
This person lives on an isolated farm in Ohio. I know from discussions
of the portfolio she turned in (Ohio requirement) that her children's
exposure to math for the year was limited to the measurements involved
in building a deck. Wow.
Pardon me if I find this a bit light for teenagers. Frankly, I think
those children are being ill-served. Yeah, they could be equally
ill-served in a public school. Yeah yeah yeah, this is schoolish
concern for the level where they should be, sure. But if and when
those children become interested in academic pursuits they will have
several years of work to do if they want to major in anything but
English. Why limit their possibilities?
This is not a flaw of unschooling per se, but of how certain people
use it. I do think that their are things you should learn whose
usefulness is not immediately apparent. Like algebra. So I disagree
with those who would have the educational enterprise be entirely
child-directed. Child driven, sure, but parent guided is what works
for use.
What I am saying is directed to the woman who asked for opinions, and
all I am saying is -- there is a hole there. For those who are
unfamiliar with the quotation, it goes something like this:
I was walking down the street and I fell into a hole
Some people came and saw me and they helped me get out of that hole.
A few days later I was walking down the street
I fell into that hole again and again someone helped me get out
And then
I was walking down the street and I fell in the hole again
I could not believe I fell in that hole again
When I looked at the walls of the hole I saw how to get out
When I got out of the hole, I saw some people
I warned them about the hole
The next day I walked down a different street.
This quote may not quite apply to this particular situation as I don't
believe that I have been in this hole myself, but I like this
quotation, and that is what I am doing -- pointing out a hazard. There
is no reason to let fear of this hazard rule our lives or keep us from
teaching our children as we see fit. But if the hazard seems like a
danger into which we might fall...perhaps we should take heed and um,
maybe bring a ladder or a rope.
Pam, if you'd like to nitpick over typos or tell me that I am not
doing this properly, please feel free. I don't think I have much
respect for your opinion though. You take things as personal attacks
when they aren't meant to be and retaliate unnecessarily.
Be well and be happy
Dana
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 16:16:51 -0700, pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 14, 2004, at 3:49 PM, dana tierney wrote:
>
> > At the time I had these discussions, I was concerned that he was
> > spending too much time on fundamentally sterile pursuits (Adult Swim,
> > Grand Theft Auto)
>
> What?
>
> > and noticed that he seemed quite interested in my
> > graduate classes the couple of times I took him along.
> >
> > I think I have already addressed the spelling thing elsewhere. While I
> > am as capable of a typo as the next person, it bothers me when people
> > who don't seem to know or care how to use language are the only
> > resource their children have for learning this.
>
> Well - how odd that you know people who claim to be radical unschoolers
> and who keep their kids in a bubble where they are their kids' only
> resource. Are you seriously saying that unschooling parents ARE their
> kids' only resource for learning to use language?
>
> > I think it's only fair
> > to the child to do a frank self-assessment and make resources
> > available in areas which are not our strengths.
>
> And - do you think unschooling parents don't do that because they are
> bad spellers?
>
> Your first post started out defensively: "Please note that I am not
> interested in
> suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
> we do works for us."
>
> There is no such thing as "politically correct unschooling" and your
> use of that phrase was an insult and most people here undoubtedly
> recognized it as such, but chose to ignore it and respond to the
> content of your post anyway.
>
> However, you also said that you've been told that you're not an
> unschooler and, given your focus on your child being "behind" in math,
> you're right that it doesn't sound like an unschooling approach. So -
> I'm curious about what it is that makes you want to label yourself as
> an unschooler? Why does that matter to you? What you do works for you.
> You said so yourself. That's great.
>
> -pam
> National Home Education Network
> <www.NHEN.org>
> Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
> through information, networking and public relations.
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
averyschmidt
> What I like about college is theWhat I like about life is the ability to meander through areas of
> ability to meander through areas of knowledge.
knowledge.
> Much of that isyear :)
> defeated if one takes the attitude that no, I can't take Native
> American philosophy because I already have my elective for the
> Or whatever. But this is an attitude of the student, notnecessarily
> of the institution.It *is* the attitude of the institution if there is only room in the
course load for a certain number of electives with the rest being
filled by requirements.
> To answer the specific question about math, a 14yo who has a soundfractions
> grasp of basic math but is a bit hazy on multiplication of
> and feels no need to get beyond very simple algebra (2x=4) isbehind
> in my opinion, not only with respect to where he would be in ps butIt seems to me that worrying about being on the level of same age
> also with relation to his very advanced skills in other areas.
public school students is really not at all conducive to
unschooling. This is admittedly something I've struggle with myself
(I've been well schooled after all) but it's *my* baggage and not
something I want to be heaping onto my kids. So if I have an urge
to make someone do math, instead of acting on that urge I immerse
myself in unschooling forums (or listen to Pam's math tapes- thanks
Pam) until the urge passes and I've come to my senses.
Are you interested in learning more about unschooling? Or have you
already decided it's not for you? (In which case I'm really curious
why you're on this list...)
> I was concerned that he wasSwim,
> spending too much time on fundamentally sterile pursuits (Adult
> Grand Theft Auto) and noticed that he seemed quite interested in myWhat do you mean by "fundamentally sterile pursuits"?
> graduate classes the couple of times I took him along.
And how is Grand Theft Auto "fundamentally sterile" while, say,
algebra is not?
> I think it's only fairSo let's say I'm not a good speller (actually I am, but whatever).
> to the child to do a frank self-assessment and make resources
> available in areas which are not our strengths.
Are you thinking that as an unschooling mother my kids don't come
into contact with anyone else's spelling? My children are
surrounded by print- from our mail, to our books, to our magazines,
to the internet, to their video games and more. My writing, on the
other hand, they don't see much of unless I jot down a note to them
or something. So *my* personal spelling ability is only a tiny
fraction of the print they see in their lives. Why would I ever
have to set about "making resources available" to counteract my own
lack?
Unless what you mean by "resource" is an enforced spelling
curriculum.
Patti
dana tierney
> What I like about life is the ability to meander through areas ofyadda yadda yadda. I am not exposed to jewish literature, say, in my
> knowledge.
daily life. I have found a lot of really wonderful things browsing in
college libraries.
> It *is* the attitude of the institution if there is only room in theso the student can select another major, take a few more classes than
> course load for a certain number of electives with the rest being
> filled by requirements.
four, or gee, take a little longer to graduate. Who's being schoolish
now? You don't have to follow the catalog, you kow.
> It seems to me that worrying about being on the level of same ageWell see, my primary goal is not unschooling actually, but helping my
> public school students is really not at all conducive to
> unschooling.
children grow. So whatever.
> Are you interested in learning more about unschooling? Or have youYou get your email in reverse order too, don't you. I am not trying to
> already decided it's not for you? (In which case I'm really curious
> why you're on this list...)
be sarcastic, but I have already answered this one several times and I
have a life to get to :)
> What do you mean by "fundamentally sterile pursuits"?Algebra is a tool. Grand theft auto is not. If that doesn't help then
> And how is Grand Theft Auto "fundamentally sterile" while, say,
> algebra is not?
I am sorry, I don't have the time.
> So let's say I'm not a good speller (actually I am, but whatever).k...
> Are you thinking that as an unschooling mother my kids don't comein the particular case I was thinking of, maybe not.
> into contact with anyone else's spelling?
My children are
> surrounded by print- from our mail, to our books, to our magazines,good! why is everyone feeling the need to justify their particular situation?
> to the internet, to their video games and more.
> Unless what you mean by "resource" is an enforced spellingNope. I don't enforce spelling. My daughter does it on her own. Math
> curriculum.
on the other hand...
Dana
pam sorooshian
On Oct 14, 2004, at 5:02 PM, dana tierney wrote:
I think if is confusing when people call themselves "unschoolers" but
then go on to talk about their kids being "behind in math." I don't
think it is going to be useful to people who are interested in
understanding unschooling because being "behind" in a subject area is a
school concept. Living our lives as if "schooling" doesn't exist is a
good way of describing "unschooling." Outside of school, there is no
such thing as being "behind." In fact, even IN school, "behind"
changes depending on what school district you're in, what state, and
what year. When I was in elementary school, children in my state were
not taught to read until 2nd grade (Dick and Jane method). Even when
2nd grade started, we didn't get around to starting the actual reading
lessons for weeks. I was impatiently waiting and remember this very
very clearly. These days they have "reading recovery" programs for kids
who are already "behind" in reading - in the very beginning of 1st
grade.
Unschooled kids read at different ages just like they learn all kinds
of things at different ages. They're not "behind" if they don't read by
6 or 8 or 10 or 12 years old. They simply read when the time is right
for them. RIGHT for them. Right on time for them. Neither early nor
late. And the same is true of everything else they learn. They cannot
be ahead of or behind themselves.
-pam
"Children do not need to be made to learn to be better, told what to do
or shown how. If they are given access to enough of the world, they will
see clearly enough what things are truly important to themselves and to
others, and they will make for themselves a better path into that world
then anyone else could make for them"
~John Holt in "How Children Fail"
> Why does it matter to you what I call myself? I subscribe to the list.LOL - there are those "certain people" again.
> Opinions were asked and I gave mine. Gave it, knowing that certain
> people would get all bent out of shape over it.
I think if is confusing when people call themselves "unschoolers" but
then go on to talk about their kids being "behind in math." I don't
think it is going to be useful to people who are interested in
understanding unschooling because being "behind" in a subject area is a
school concept. Living our lives as if "schooling" doesn't exist is a
good way of describing "unschooling." Outside of school, there is no
such thing as being "behind." In fact, even IN school, "behind"
changes depending on what school district you're in, what state, and
what year. When I was in elementary school, children in my state were
not taught to read until 2nd grade (Dick and Jane method). Even when
2nd grade started, we didn't get around to starting the actual reading
lessons for weeks. I was impatiently waiting and remember this very
very clearly. These days they have "reading recovery" programs for kids
who are already "behind" in reading - in the very beginning of 1st
grade.
Unschooled kids read at different ages just like they learn all kinds
of things at different ages. They're not "behind" if they don't read by
6 or 8 or 10 or 12 years old. They simply read when the time is right
for them. RIGHT for them. Right on time for them. Neither early nor
late. And the same is true of everything else they learn. They cannot
be ahead of or behind themselves.
-pam
"Children do not need to be made to learn to be better, told what to do
or shown how. If they are given access to enough of the world, they will
see clearly enough what things are truly important to themselves and to
others, and they will make for themselves a better path into that world
then anyone else could make for them"
~John Holt in "How Children Fail"
pam sorooshian
On Oct 14, 2004, at 5:02 PM, dana tierney wrote:
list pretty regularly talk about the question of "child-driven" and
there are quite a few of us who don't care for that description of
unschooling because it seems to imply that parents are on the
sidelines, watching.
That said, I don't think algebra is important for everyone. I think it
is a waste of time for many. I'm an econometrician, myself, and love
mathematics and use algebra a lot. But it is just a tool and not one
that is useful to everybody.
About you being in on discussions of another family's portfolio, that
strikes me as very strange - why would you be privy to that
information? Are you the evaluator? Is that not confidential
information? Unschoolers will usually turn in the minimum amount of
documentation necessary to satisfy requirements - what is put in a
required portfolio does not remotely indicate the full scope of what is
really going on in their homes.
Unschooled kids who haven't learned algebra or other kinds of math are
not behind, they're just busy with other things. They are learning
something all the time. There is no timetable for life outside of
school - nothing says that they have to learn algebra by 18. My
experience is that when they needed to learn it for their own purposes,
it came easily to them. And my oldest has taken college math and
statistics courses and gotten As, without ever having done one minute
of any kind of math program before that.
-pam
In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find
themselves equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.
Eric Hoffer
>Maybe you could read more? People here and on the UnschoolingDiscussion
> This is not a flaw of unschooling per se, but of how certain people
> use it. I do think that their are things you should learn whose
> usefulness is not immediately apparent. Like algebra. So I disagree
> with those who would have the educational enterprise be entirely
> child-directed. Child driven, sure, but parent guided is what works
> for use.
list pretty regularly talk about the question of "child-driven" and
there are quite a few of us who don't care for that description of
unschooling because it seems to imply that parents are on the
sidelines, watching.
That said, I don't think algebra is important for everyone. I think it
is a waste of time for many. I'm an econometrician, myself, and love
mathematics and use algebra a lot. But it is just a tool and not one
that is useful to everybody.
About you being in on discussions of another family's portfolio, that
strikes me as very strange - why would you be privy to that
information? Are you the evaluator? Is that not confidential
information? Unschoolers will usually turn in the minimum amount of
documentation necessary to satisfy requirements - what is put in a
required portfolio does not remotely indicate the full scope of what is
really going on in their homes.
Unschooled kids who haven't learned algebra or other kinds of math are
not behind, they're just busy with other things. They are learning
something all the time. There is no timetable for life outside of
school - nothing says that they have to learn algebra by 18. My
experience is that when they needed to learn it for their own purposes,
it came easily to them. And my oldest has taken college math and
statistics courses and gotten As, without ever having done one minute
of any kind of math program before that.
-pam
In times of change, learners inherit the earth, while the learned find
themselves equipped to deal with a world that no longer exists.
Eric Hoffer
dana tierney
::shrug:: I read the list but don't normally pay attention to who is
saying what. It's all sort of homogeneous. Thus certain people. The
reaction was predictable although I could not have named anyone in
particular I expected to have it.
I think it's a bit disingenuous though to claim I confused the lady.
Do I claim, even by omission, to represent politically correct
unschooling as it is manifested on this list? Well then :)
Dana
saying what. It's all sort of homogeneous. Thus certain people. The
reaction was predictable although I could not have named anyone in
particular I expected to have it.
I think it's a bit disingenuous though to claim I confused the lady.
Do I claim, even by omission, to represent politically correct
unschooling as it is manifested on this list? Well then :)
Dana
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 18:47:22 -0700, pam sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 14, 2004, at 5:02 PM, dana tierney wrote:
>
> > Why does it matter to you what I call myself? I subscribe to the list.
> > Opinions were asked and I gave mine. Gave it, knowing that certain
> > people would get all bent out of shape over it.
>
> LOL - there are those "certain people" again.
>
> I think if is confusing when people call themselves "unschoolers" but
> then go on to talk about their kids being "behind in math." I don't
> think it is going to be useful to people who are interested in
> understanding unschooling because being "behind" in a subject area is a
> school concept. Living our lives as if "schooling" doesn't exist is a
> good way of describing "unschooling." Outside of school, there is no
> such thing as being "behind." In fact, even IN school, "behind"
> changes depending on what school district you're in, what state, and
> what year. When I was in elementary school, children in my state were
> not taught to read until 2nd grade (Dick and Jane method). Even when
> 2nd grade started, we didn't get around to starting the actual reading
> lessons for weeks. I was impatiently waiting and remember this very
> very clearly. These days they have "reading recovery" programs for kids
> who are already "behind" in reading - in the very beginning of 1st
> grade.
>
> Unschooled kids read at different ages just like they learn all kinds
> of things at different ages. They're not "behind" if they don't read by
> 6 or 8 or 10 or 12 years old. They simply read when the time is right
> for them. RIGHT for them. Right on time for them. Neither early nor
> late. And the same is true of everything else they learn. They cannot
> be ahead of or behind themselves.
>
> -pam
> "Children do not need to be made to learn to be better, told what to do
> or shown how. If they are given access to enough of the world, they will
> see clearly enough what things are truly important to themselves and to
> others, and they will make for themselves a better path into that world
> then anyone else could make for them"
>
> ~John Holt in "How Children Fail"
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
pam sorooshian
On Oct 14, 2004, at 5:02 PM, dana tierney wrote:
unschooling parents because they have poor spelling, that you're just
asking for people to nitpick you own grammar, spelling, etc. And it is
EASY to do - as easy as looking right at whatever post I might have had
in front of me at that moment.
People WILL do that. They may not post it, but they'll be reading you
posts thinking, "She's not so perfect, why does SHE think she should
judge others."
I'm not taking anything you've said personally. You're talking about
some anonymous "certain people" and I have no idea who those people are
and don't really care. I don't even care if it IS me, to be honest.
You started this thread with saying:
"well
I've been told I am not "really" an unschooler, but here is some input
for what it is worth. Please note that I am not interested in
suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
we do works for us."
So - if you are not an unschooler and not interested in suggestions
about how to unschool, why are you here?
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Pam, if you'd like to nitpick over typos or tell me that I am notYou missed the point. I was saying that if YOU judge people as bad
> doing this properly, please feel free. I don't think I have much
> respect for your opinion though. You take things as personal attacks
> when they aren't meant to be and retaliate unnecessarily.
unschooling parents because they have poor spelling, that you're just
asking for people to nitpick you own grammar, spelling, etc. And it is
EASY to do - as easy as looking right at whatever post I might have had
in front of me at that moment.
People WILL do that. They may not post it, but they'll be reading you
posts thinking, "She's not so perfect, why does SHE think she should
judge others."
I'm not taking anything you've said personally. You're talking about
some anonymous "certain people" and I have no idea who those people are
and don't really care. I don't even care if it IS me, to be honest.
You started this thread with saying:
"well
I've been told I am not "really" an unschooler, but here is some input
for what it is worth. Please note that I am not interested in
suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
we do works for us."
So - if you are not an unschooler and not interested in suggestions
about how to unschool, why are you here?
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
averyschmidt
> yadda yadda yadda. I am not exposed to jewish literature, say, inmy
> daily life. I have found a lot of really wonderful things browsingin
> college libraries.You could find Jewish literature in places other than college
libraries if you had a hankering for it.
My point was that one doesn't need to set foot on a college campus
in order to meander through areas of knowledge.
> so the student can select another major, take a few more classesthan
> four, or gee, take a little longer to graduate. Who's beingschoolish
> now?I was describing schools, not my own learning theories, so
your "schoolish" accusation is nonsensical.
Colleges have requirements for graduation, at least the ones that I
know about.
> Algebra is a tool. Grand theft auto is not. If that doesn't helpthen
> I am sorry, I don't have the time.A tool for what? Really, I'm curious. I know lots of busy,
productive people and I can't think of one that uses an algebra
curriculum as a life tool.
> good! why is everyone feeling the need to justify their particularsituation?
You're missing the point- on purpose, I think.
You insisted that an unschooling child with a poorly spelling parent
must be exposed to alternate spelling resources.
I was pointing out the many different sources of correct spelling
children are exposed to just in daily living.
So what did *you* mean exactly by an alternate source, if not some
sort of spelling curriculum?
Patti
dana tierney
She volunteered the information on the list. ::shrug::
pretty happy with my results. So while I appreciate your suggestions
of further reading, um, thanks :)
Dana
> About you being in on discussions of another family's portfolio, thatAs for the rest... I've been doing this a while, you know, and am
> strikes me as very strange - why would you be privy to that
> information? Are you the evaluator? Is that not confidential
> information? Unschoolers will usually turn in the minimum amount of
> documentation necessary to satisfy requirements - what is put in a
> required portfolio does not remotely indicate the full scope of what is
> really going on in their homes.
pretty happy with my results. So while I appreciate your suggestions
of further reading, um, thanks :)
Dana
Kate Sitzman
> Algebra is a tool. Grand theft auto is not. If that doesn't helpthen
> I am sorry, I don't have the time.I had to chuckle at this one - I recently applied for a job at Nintendo.
They didn't care if I'd had any algebra, but a few hours of GTA under my
belt would have really helped my application!
Kate
dana tierney
I also think that you are missing my point, deliberately :) so there
is little point in continuing this, is there?
But just in case. Actually, I can't really think of where else in
Albuquerque I might find Jewish literature. Possibly in the one or two
independent bookstores. But the idea is not to sit up one day and say
"I will research Jewish literature" but rather to stumble across some
while looking for a copy of the Blessing Way or a book about Japanese
woodcuts :)
who says you have to graduate? Not me, that's for sure :)
And why would you use algebra? Gee :) How many pizzas do we have to
buy so that each of nine people gets three slices? I can't believe I
am explaining this :)
You'd use algebra to determine where supply and demand curves meet if
you wanted to set an optimum price for your product. If you had the
tools, you'd be a little better off using calculus.
You'd use calculus to find a better way to render 3-d graphics, either
on the hardware or the software end.
You'd use summation to calculate the beta or volatility of a given stock.
Not to mention what you would use to make the next leap in quantum
computing -- a little over my head -- but an eigenvalue, I think.
Then there are growth curves in biology and microbiology....velocities
and orbits of planets, ballistics (bound to be a growth field if Bush
is re-elected) and good old plain vanilla chemical reactions and
circuit theory.
I am sure that there are those out there saying yuck pooey what if he
doesn't want to learn all that? Ah, but what if he does? And what if
he does but doesn't know it yet?
That's all. And now I am outta here :)
Dana
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 02:19:56 -0000, averyschmidt
<patti.schmidt2@...> wrote:
is little point in continuing this, is there?
But just in case. Actually, I can't really think of where else in
Albuquerque I might find Jewish literature. Possibly in the one or two
independent bookstores. But the idea is not to sit up one day and say
"I will research Jewish literature" but rather to stumble across some
while looking for a copy of the Blessing Way or a book about Japanese
woodcuts :)
who says you have to graduate? Not me, that's for sure :)
And why would you use algebra? Gee :) How many pizzas do we have to
buy so that each of nine people gets three slices? I can't believe I
am explaining this :)
You'd use algebra to determine where supply and demand curves meet if
you wanted to set an optimum price for your product. If you had the
tools, you'd be a little better off using calculus.
You'd use calculus to find a better way to render 3-d graphics, either
on the hardware or the software end.
You'd use summation to calculate the beta or volatility of a given stock.
Not to mention what you would use to make the next leap in quantum
computing -- a little over my head -- but an eigenvalue, I think.
Then there are growth curves in biology and microbiology....velocities
and orbits of planets, ballistics (bound to be a growth field if Bush
is re-elected) and good old plain vanilla chemical reactions and
circuit theory.
I am sure that there are those out there saying yuck pooey what if he
doesn't want to learn all that? Ah, but what if he does? And what if
he does but doesn't know it yet?
That's all. And now I am outta here :)
Dana
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 02:19:56 -0000, averyschmidt
<patti.schmidt2@...> wrote:
>
>
> > yadda yadda yadda. I am not exposed to jewish literature, say, in
> my
> > daily life. I have found a lot of really wonderful things browsing
> in
> > college libraries.
>
> You could find Jewish literature in places other than college
> libraries if you had a hankering for it.
> My point was that one doesn't need to set foot on a college campus
> in order to meander through areas of knowledge.
>
> > so the student can select another major, take a few more classes
> than
> > four, or gee, take a little longer to graduate. Who's being
> schoolish
> > now?
>
> I was describing schools, not my own learning theories, so
> your "schoolish" accusation is nonsensical.
> Colleges have requirements for graduation, at least the ones that I
> know about.
>
> > Algebra is a tool. Grand theft auto is not. If that doesn't help
> then
> > I am sorry, I don't have the time.
>
> A tool for what? Really, I'm curious. I know lots of busy,
> productive people and I can't think of one that uses an algebra
> curriculum as a life tool.
>
> > good! why is everyone feeling the need to justify their particular
> situation?
>
> You're missing the point- on purpose, I think.
> You insisted that an unschooling child with a poorly spelling parent
> must be exposed to alternate spelling resources.
> I was pointing out the many different sources of correct spelling
> children are exposed to just in daily living.
> So what did *you* mean exactly by an alternate source, if not some
> sort of spelling curriculum?
>
> Patti
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
averyschmidt
> But just in case. Actually, I can't really think of where else intwo
> Albuquerque I might find Jewish literature. Possibly in the one or
> independent bookstores. But the idea is not to sit up one day andsay
> "I will research Jewish literature" but rather to stumble acrosssome
> while looking for a copy of the Blessing Way or a book aboutJapanese
> woodcuts :)There are all sorts of things to stumble across in all areas of
life, not just in college libraries.
You said "what I like about college is being able to meander through
areas of knowledge." (Or something like that). I can do that at
Barnes and Noble, or a mall, or a museum, or any other number of
places. Dreaming up an example of something that will only be found
in a college library will not change that fact.
> who says you have to graduate? Not me, that's for sureAnd I go a little further and say that you don't even have to go.
> And why would you use algebra? Gee :) How many pizzas do we have toI
> buy so that each of nine people gets three slices? I can't believe
> am explaining thisWhat you're explaining is a real life example of using real life
math. And that proves your belief in the need for an algebra
curriculum.... how?
> You'd use algebra to determine where supply and demand curves meetif
> you wanted to set an optimum price for your product. If you had theI come from an extended family of entrepeneurs who are always
> tools, you'd be a little better off using calculus.
developing and marketing various products, and what you're
describing can be learned and done through experience and without
even knowing the word "algebra".
> You'd use calculus to find a better way to render 3-d graphics,either
> on the hardware or the software end.stock.
> You'd use summation to calculate the beta or volatility of a given
> Not to mention what you would use to make the next leap in quantumNone of these things are of any interest to me whatsoever, and if
> computing -- a little over my head -- but an eigenvalue, I think.
they're ever of any interest to my children then I won't be able to
*stop* them from learning about them.
> I am sure that there are those out there saying yuck pooey what ifhe
> doesn't want to learn all that? Ah, but what if he does? And whatif
> he does but doesn't know it yet?OH PLEASE. Would you like it if someone forced you to take a class
you had zero interest in all because they were certain you really
wanted to but just didn't know it yet?
That demonstrates very little respect for your child.
Patti
TreeGoddess
On Oct 14, 2004, at 10:44 PM, dana tierney wrote:
why anyone would feel the need to use a curriculum in order to learn
it. Using the pizza example above is pretty simple to figure out even
for a young child who has never heard the word "algebra".
Algebra is useful in everyday living without *calling it* algebra.
-Tracy-
> [And why would you use algebra? Gee :) How many pizzas do we haveI don't think it was asked *why* anyone would use algebra, but rather
> to buy so that each of nine people gets three slices? I can't believe
> I am explaining this :) ]
why anyone would feel the need to use a curriculum in order to learn
it. Using the pizza example above is pretty simple to figure out even
for a young child who has never heard the word "algebra".
Algebra is useful in everyday living without *calling it* algebra.
-Tracy-
Robyn Coburn
<<<<This person lives on an isolated farm in Ohio. I know from discussions
of the portfolio she turned in (Ohio requirement) that her children's
exposure to math for the year was limited to the measurements involved
in building a deck. Wow.>>>>
Did you see the portfolio? Did she include every minute of the year in the
portfolio? How fancy was the deck? Do they till, sow, fertilize and reap on
her farm? Is it a commercial concern with produce being sold? Do they pay
taxes? Buy groceries and animal feed? Pay bills? Have cel phones with
numbers of minutes? Are they on the electricity grid or do they make their
own power? Do they collect eggs from their own chickens? Are they on line?
DO THEY MAKE COOKIES?
You seem to be missing the point of life experience based learning, which is
that everything is a learning situation. Unfortunately some States force
Unschoolers to have to contrive "educationese" out of their daily living.
Often the recommendation is only to record the minimum required, rather than
give the States the opportunity to increase regulations.
<<<< So I disagree
with those who would have the educational enterprise be entirely
child-directed. Child driven, sure, but parent guided is what works
for use.>>>>
You have already said that people don't consider you an unschooling family.
The people who are Unschooling here, and on the sister lists, are engaging
in a child directed educational lifestyle with great success.
<<<<I was walking down the street and I fell into a hole
Some people came and saw me and they helped me get out of that hole.
A few days later I was walking down the street
I fell into that hole again and again someone helped me get out
And then I was walking down the street and I fell in the hole again
I could not believe I fell in that hole again
When I looked at the walls of the hole I saw how to get out
When I got out of the hole, I saw some people
I warned them about the hole
The next day I walked down a different street.>>>>
HUH??
So you are quoting some story about some individual who is too stupid to
stay out of the same hole days in a row, and it is relevant how? I don't see
the analogy.
<<<<This quote may not quite apply to this particular situation as I don't
believe that I have been in this hole myself, but I like this
quotation, and that is what I am doing -- pointing out a hazard.>>>
No you are not pointing out a hazard. You have simply been saying, in
increasingly barbed and offensive ways, that we must be neglecting our
children's educations, and now that we are too stupid to stay out of an
imaginary hole.
If you don't want to Unschool then don't. I'm sure you and your kids are
leading a perfectly happy life. However this is a list for people who DO
want to learn about Unschooling. The "hazard" you are talking about, and I'm
still not clear on what that is, is not real in the experience of people who
are Unschooling. Some of the long time Unschoolers freely giving up their
time and energy here have been doing it for over 20 years. Their children
are grown and almost grown. If you can't learn something about Unschooling
from the people here, you can at least refrain from telling us how little
respect you have for us.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004
of the portfolio she turned in (Ohio requirement) that her children's
exposure to math for the year was limited to the measurements involved
in building a deck. Wow.>>>>
Did you see the portfolio? Did she include every minute of the year in the
portfolio? How fancy was the deck? Do they till, sow, fertilize and reap on
her farm? Is it a commercial concern with produce being sold? Do they pay
taxes? Buy groceries and animal feed? Pay bills? Have cel phones with
numbers of minutes? Are they on the electricity grid or do they make their
own power? Do they collect eggs from their own chickens? Are they on line?
DO THEY MAKE COOKIES?
You seem to be missing the point of life experience based learning, which is
that everything is a learning situation. Unfortunately some States force
Unschoolers to have to contrive "educationese" out of their daily living.
Often the recommendation is only to record the minimum required, rather than
give the States the opportunity to increase regulations.
<<<< So I disagree
with those who would have the educational enterprise be entirely
child-directed. Child driven, sure, but parent guided is what works
for use.>>>>
You have already said that people don't consider you an unschooling family.
The people who are Unschooling here, and on the sister lists, are engaging
in a child directed educational lifestyle with great success.
<<<<I was walking down the street and I fell into a hole
Some people came and saw me and they helped me get out of that hole.
A few days later I was walking down the street
I fell into that hole again and again someone helped me get out
And then I was walking down the street and I fell in the hole again
I could not believe I fell in that hole again
When I looked at the walls of the hole I saw how to get out
When I got out of the hole, I saw some people
I warned them about the hole
The next day I walked down a different street.>>>>
HUH??
So you are quoting some story about some individual who is too stupid to
stay out of the same hole days in a row, and it is relevant how? I don't see
the analogy.
<<<<This quote may not quite apply to this particular situation as I don't
believe that I have been in this hole myself, but I like this
quotation, and that is what I am doing -- pointing out a hazard.>>>
No you are not pointing out a hazard. You have simply been saying, in
increasingly barbed and offensive ways, that we must be neglecting our
children's educations, and now that we are too stupid to stay out of an
imaginary hole.
If you don't want to Unschool then don't. I'm sure you and your kids are
leading a perfectly happy life. However this is a list for people who DO
want to learn about Unschooling. The "hazard" you are talking about, and I'm
still not clear on what that is, is not real in the experience of people who
are Unschooling. Some of the long time Unschoolers freely giving up their
time and energy here have been doing it for over 20 years. Their children
are grown and almost grown. If you can't learn something about Unschooling
from the people here, you can at least refrain from telling us how little
respect you have for us.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Robyn Coburn
<<<<And why would you use algebra? Gee :) How many pizzas do we have to
buy so that each of nine people gets three slices? I can't believe I
am explaining this :)>>>
That depends on how many slices there are in each pizza.
This is exactly the kind of dumb question that you find in math workbooks.
Robyn L. Coburn
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buy so that each of nine people gets three slices? I can't believe I
am explaining this :)>>>
That depends on how many slices there are in each pizza.
This is exactly the kind of dumb question that you find in math workbooks.
Robyn L. Coburn
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pam sorooshian
On Oct 14, 2004, at 7:00 PM, dana tierney wrote:
it is when people are excessively worried about offending others in
terms of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I understand that you
mean it as an insult, but I don't understand what you mean by it in
this context. What is it exactly that you consider to be "politically
correct unschooling?"
You are giving advice on a list called: "Unschooling Basics" and I
think, yes, you are implying that you are giving unschooling advice.
Talking about kids being "behind" in math is most definitely
school-talk and it is confusing and misleading to pass that off as
"unschooling" advice.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> I think it's a bit disingenuous though to claim I confused the lady.My understanding of what the term "politically correct" means is that
> Do I claim, even by omission, to represent politically correct
> unschooling as it is manifested on this list? Well then :)
it is when people are excessively worried about offending others in
terms of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. I understand that you
mean it as an insult, but I don't understand what you mean by it in
this context. What is it exactly that you consider to be "politically
correct unschooling?"
You are giving advice on a list called: "Unschooling Basics" and I
think, yes, you are implying that you are giving unschooling advice.
Talking about kids being "behind" in math is most definitely
school-talk and it is confusing and misleading to pass that off as
"unschooling" advice.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
J. Stauffer
I think I have figured out why dana doesn't like the list that has little room for argument. She appears to revel in it.
<<<<"yadda yadda yadda.... So whatever....Algebra is a tool. Grand theft auto is not. If that doesn't help then
I am sorry, I don't have the time.>>>
These are not the words of someone interested in discussions, just arguments. Why don't we try to help people unschool who actually want to?
Julie S.
<<<<"yadda yadda yadda.... So whatever....Algebra is a tool. Grand theft auto is not. If that doesn't help then
I am sorry, I don't have the time.>>>
These are not the words of someone interested in discussions, just arguments. Why don't we try to help people unschool who actually want to?
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: dana tierney
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: College = bad was: Opinions wanted
> What I like about life is the ability to meander through areas of
> knowledge.
yadda yadda yadda. I am not exposed to jewish literature, say, in my
daily life. I have found a lot of really wonderful things browsing in
college libraries.
> It *is* the attitude of the institution if there is only room in the
> course load for a certain number of electives with the rest being
> filled by requirements.
so the student can select another major, take a few more classes than
four, or gee, take a little longer to graduate. Who's being schoolish
now? You don't have to follow the catalog, you kow.
> It seems to me that worrying about being on the level of same age
> public school students is really not at all conducive to
> unschooling.
Well see, my primary goal is not unschooling actually, but helping my
children grow. So whatever.
> Are you interested in learning more about unschooling? Or have you
> already decided it's not for you? (In which case I'm really curious
> why you're on this list...)
You get your email in reverse order too, don't you. I am not trying to
be sarcastic, but I have already answered this one several times and I
have a life to get to :)
> What do you mean by "fundamentally sterile pursuits"?
> And how is Grand Theft Auto "fundamentally sterile" while, say,
> algebra is not?
Algebra is a tool. Grand theft auto is not. If that doesn't help then
I am sorry, I don't have the time.
> So let's say I'm not a good speller (actually I am, but whatever).
k...
> Are you thinking that as an unschooling mother my kids don't come
> into contact with anyone else's spelling?
in the particular case I was thinking of, maybe not.
My children are
> surrounded by print- from our mail, to our books, to our magazines,
> to the internet, to their video games and more.
good! why is everyone feeling the need to justify their particular situation?
> Unless what you mean by "resource" is an enforced spelling
> curriculum.
Nope. I don't enforce spelling. My daughter does it on her own. Math
on the other hand...
Dana
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***...her children's exposure to math for the year was limited to the
measurements involved
in building a deck. Wow.
Pardon me if I find this a bit light for teenagers. ***
I think it's possible her kids also played games, figured the cost of
merchandise they wanted, purchased items, counted change, divided food
portions, cooked, etc. She may not have noted in the "health and
fitness" portion of her portfolio that her children were breathing and
eating, but I'll wager they were.
***This is not a flaw of unschooling per se, but of how certain people
use it. ***
This is the strength of unschooling and the strength of the people who
understand it. People learn. They're learning all the time. If
they're not learning math notation it's because they're not needing math
notation.
***I do think that their are things you should learn whose
usefulness is not immediately apparent.***
I think unschooling parents understand their children are learning all
the time though the usefulness of what they're learning is not always
immediately apparent.
***Like algebra. ***
If a person discovers they need algebra they can learn algebra.
***So I disagree with those who would have the educational enterprise be
entirely child-directed. Child driven, sure, but parent guided is what
works
for use.***
I think we understand you disagree with trusting children to learn and
that you know it won't work for you. But I'm not interested in what
"works" in regards to education. I'm interested in my son having the
opportunity to live the life he loves. I'm interested in him trusting
his own decisions and trusting his ability. My son is not in pursuit of
an educational enterprise, he's living life. He's learning all the time,
but not because he has been made to believe he must get educated. He's
learning because it would be impossible for him to not learn. When he
needed to talk he talked. When he needed to walk he walked. When he
needed to read he read. I have witnessed twelve years of constant
learning and have no doubt he can and will learn whatever he decides he
needs. I'm available to provide him with resources, support, ideas,
assistance, etc.
It is very possible he doesn't know at this moment that when he's twenty
five he will want to know how to put a new engine in his Jeep .
But by that time he will have had twenty five years of learning
experience, of understanding he is capable of learning anything he wants
to learn and he will learn how to put a new engine in his Jeep. I could
take up his time today and for then next week with engine repair
instruction but how do I know what might be depriving him of by forcing
him to do something else, isn't the very thing he would need to know when
he was twenty four?
I can't look at the life of any other individual on the planet and know
what they will need in ten or twelve years. I certainly can't know that
for my son. If anyone has any idea it will be him.
Deb Lewis
measurements involved
in building a deck. Wow.
Pardon me if I find this a bit light for teenagers. ***
I think it's possible her kids also played games, figured the cost of
merchandise they wanted, purchased items, counted change, divided food
portions, cooked, etc. She may not have noted in the "health and
fitness" portion of her portfolio that her children were breathing and
eating, but I'll wager they were.
***This is not a flaw of unschooling per se, but of how certain people
use it. ***
This is the strength of unschooling and the strength of the people who
understand it. People learn. They're learning all the time. If
they're not learning math notation it's because they're not needing math
notation.
***I do think that their are things you should learn whose
usefulness is not immediately apparent.***
I think unschooling parents understand their children are learning all
the time though the usefulness of what they're learning is not always
immediately apparent.
***Like algebra. ***
If a person discovers they need algebra they can learn algebra.
***So I disagree with those who would have the educational enterprise be
entirely child-directed. Child driven, sure, but parent guided is what
works
for use.***
I think we understand you disagree with trusting children to learn and
that you know it won't work for you. But I'm not interested in what
"works" in regards to education. I'm interested in my son having the
opportunity to live the life he loves. I'm interested in him trusting
his own decisions and trusting his ability. My son is not in pursuit of
an educational enterprise, he's living life. He's learning all the time,
but not because he has been made to believe he must get educated. He's
learning because it would be impossible for him to not learn. When he
needed to talk he talked. When he needed to walk he walked. When he
needed to read he read. I have witnessed twelve years of constant
learning and have no doubt he can and will learn whatever he decides he
needs. I'm available to provide him with resources, support, ideas,
assistance, etc.
It is very possible he doesn't know at this moment that when he's twenty
five he will want to know how to put a new engine in his Jeep .
But by that time he will have had twenty five years of learning
experience, of understanding he is capable of learning anything he wants
to learn and he will learn how to put a new engine in his Jeep. I could
take up his time today and for then next week with engine repair
instruction but how do I know what might be depriving him of by forcing
him to do something else, isn't the very thing he would need to know when
he was twenty four?
I can't look at the life of any other individual on the planet and know
what they will need in ten or twelve years. I certainly can't know that
for my son. If anyone has any idea it will be him.
Deb Lewis
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/15/2004 12:13:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
Do I claim, even by omission, to represent politically correct
unschooling as it is manifested on this list? Well then :)
*********************************
I've often noticed that people use the term "politically correct" when
they're about to insult other people.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
Do I claim, even by omission, to represent politically correct
unschooling as it is manifested on this list? Well then :)
*********************************
I've often noticed that people use the term "politically correct" when
they're about to insult other people.
Kathryn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/15/2004 12:11:07 PM Central Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
year did they use that experience,for math??one experiment can go a long way
,to '''teach'''.
my 2 cents worth.....
i,like many have gained alot of wisdom from valerie,ren,and others that have
done this before.there are always exceptions with anything ,,,but THEY prove
to me ,by doing it ''right'',,that they are on to something here,,,
im not an unschooler by definition....but i am alot more relaxed at it than
i used to be ,,more of an ecletic/relaxed/leaning heavy toward
unschooling....but i am willing to learn from others..and have..
ddzimlew@... writes:
>and how long did it take to build a deck,,and how many other times during the
>
> ***...her children's exposure to math for the year was limited to the
> measurements involved
> in building a deck. Wow.
>
year did they use that experience,for math??one experiment can go a long way
,to '''teach'''.
my 2 cents worth.....
i,like many have gained alot of wisdom from valerie,ren,and others that have
done this before.there are always exceptions with anything ,,,but THEY prove
to me ,by doing it ''right'',,that they are on to something here,,,
im not an unschooler by definition....but i am alot more relaxed at it than
i used to be ,,more of an ecletic/relaxed/leaning heavy toward
unschooling....but i am willing to learn from others..and have..
>>June[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Daniel MacIntyre
"Grand theft Auto", the video game?
Could be a tool
Could be a tool
On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 19:25:57 -0600, dana tierney <dana.tierney@...> wrote:
>
> > What I like about life is the ability to meander through areas of
> > knowledge.
>
> yadda yadda yadda. I am not exposed to jewish literature, say, in my
> daily life. I have found a lot of really wonderful things browsing in
> college libraries.
>
> > It *is* the attitude of the institution if there is only room in the
> > course load for a certain number of electives with the rest being
> > filled by requirements.
>
> so the student can select another major, take a few more classes than
> four, or gee, take a little longer to graduate. Who's being schoolish
> now? You don't have to follow the catalog, you kow.
>
> > It seems to me that worrying about being on the level of same age
> > public school students is really not at all conducive to
> > unschooling.
>
> Well see, my primary goal is not unschooling actually, but helping my
> children grow. So whatever.
>
> > Are you interested in learning more about unschooling? Or have you
> > already decided it's not for you? (In which case I'm really curious
> > why you're on this list...)
>
> You get your email in reverse order too, don't you. I am not trying to
> be sarcastic, but I have already answered this one several times and I
> have a life to get to :)
>
> > What do you mean by "fundamentally sterile pursuits"?
> > And how is Grand Theft Auto "fundamentally sterile" while, say,
> > algebra is not?
>
> Algebra is a tool. Grand theft auto is not. If that doesn't help then
> I am sorry, I don't have the time.
>
> > So let's say I'm not a good speller (actually I am, but whatever).
>
> k...
>
> > Are you thinking that as an unschooling mother my kids don't come
> > into contact with anyone else's spelling?
>
> in the particular case I was thinking of, maybe not.
>
> My children are
> > surrounded by print- from our mail, to our books, to our magazines,
> > to the internet, to their video games and more.
>
> good! why is everyone feeling the need to justify their particular situation?
>
> > Unless what you mean by "resource" is an enforced spelling
> > curriculum.
>
> Nope. I don't enforce spelling. My daughter does it on her own. Math
> on the other hand...
>
> Dana
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>