Opinions wanted on Unschooling
Virginia Glasser
I'm for unschooling, my husband is not. I would like to gather as many
objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach to
homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot and
failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very successful,
or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from folks
who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the input
I can get. Thanks!
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach to
homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot and
failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very successful,
or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from folks
who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the input
I can get. Thanks!
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/12/2004 9:12:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
virginia@... writes:
I'm for unschooling, my husband is not. I would like to gather as many
objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach to
homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot and
failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very successful,
or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from folks
who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the input
I can get. Thanks!<<<<
You won't find the ones who've "failed" here, Virginia.
And to "fail" at unschooling is to plain NOT understand it. If you're doing
it right, if you trust that your child will learn what he needs when he needs
it and that learning is everywhere----that we are surrounded by learning
experiences every single day, if you truly BELIEVE that, then unschooling WILL
"work".
What "work" means is debatable, I guess. In order for it to "work" you have
to trust in the philosophy---that we are learning machines, that we are driven
to learn from the minute we are born until we die----UNLESS that drive is
beaten out of us (school does a damned good job of that---and so can parents
who "school-at-home", if they're not really careful!).
Joyce has said that education is a by-product of a joyful unschooling life;
it is not the goal.
We can make education the goal, but who's to say what's educational? Me?
You? The state?
It will vary from individual to individual. And from age to age. What if
your child doesn't make it to adulthood? Would you prefer to say, "Well, at
least he learned what centrifugal force was!" (I'm on a physics kick. Today was
physics day at the State Fair. Hundreds of high school students were there with
their physics assignments----"Be sure NOT to enjoy the fair while you're
here----you're here to WORK!" BLEAH! Duncan (8) learned more than those physics
students AND had fun!)
What's successful will also vary from person to person. I feel we are
extremely successful because we trust the boys. That's the first hurdle---the trust
issue, and I'm guessing it's yours. Making that paradigm shift is HARD.
You will find wildly "successful" unschoolers here. You will find struggling
unschoolers. You will find people who haven't quite yet made the
commitment.You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably"
You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably" because they don't exist.
If they *understood* unschooling, then they wouldn't have left it: they'd
still be unschooling. People who will tell you that they unschooled but that it
didn't work, didn't REALLY unschool. They *may* have done nothing for a while,
and when the kids "never" picked up a textbook, they abandoned unschooling
as a waste of time. They never *got* it.
Swimming: there are those of us in the deep end, splashing, floating,
diving, doing handstands underwater, telling you that the water's fine. There are
several treading water; sometimes reaching out for our hands, sometimes
grabbing the ledge. There are more who are hanging onto the side of the pool,
thinking, "boy, it sure looks like fun out there----how do you float???" There's a
large number actually sitting on the side with their feet dangling in the
water insisting that they're swimming (except for math and reading!<g>). And
there are those sitting in chairs under umbrellas who have stuck a toe in and
decided that that was swimming, that the water was just too cold, and that no
one can float in there.
No one can make you unschool, Virginia. You simply have to trust.
I am a wildly "successful" unschooling mom. I have a teenager who is
absolutely amazing---and only gets more so each and every day. My best friend (44)
was unschooled and is an actress who runs her own production company.
There are websites devoted to blasting unschooling as neglectful. Google it.
Read and read. Then go to unschooling.com and SandraDodd.com and read some
more. All the John Holt books, Alfie Kohn, Frank Smith, Valerie Fitzenreiter,
Ned Vare/Luz Shosie (Valerie and Ned & Luz have unschoolers that went to
college and beyond). Tell your husband to get off his butt and do some of his OWN
research---or did school burn that desire out of him?
My family really gets into discovering new things and figuring things out
and asking questions. If your husband *doesn't*, then maybe he needs to rethink
his own schooling----it obviously didn't do him as much good as unschooling
is doing for *my* family.
Unschooling is for every child. It' not for every parent----too many can't
get past their school baggage. I'm more than thrilled to help someone learn to
swim. But I can't (and won't) drag someone, who hates to even get wet,
kicking and screaming into the pool.
If the husband is pooh-poohing the idea without even researching, then I
have nothing to say: he doesn't want to learn, and as an unschooler, I'm not
going to coerce him by teaching him---it goes against the philosophy! <g> One
tenant of unschooling is that you can't teach someone who is unwilling to
learn!
If he has some questions, I'm available for answers. What does he want to
know?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
virginia@... writes:
I'm for unschooling, my husband is not. I would like to gather as many
objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach to
homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot and
failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very successful,
or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from folks
who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the input
I can get. Thanks!<<<<
You won't find the ones who've "failed" here, Virginia.
And to "fail" at unschooling is to plain NOT understand it. If you're doing
it right, if you trust that your child will learn what he needs when he needs
it and that learning is everywhere----that we are surrounded by learning
experiences every single day, if you truly BELIEVE that, then unschooling WILL
"work".
What "work" means is debatable, I guess. In order for it to "work" you have
to trust in the philosophy---that we are learning machines, that we are driven
to learn from the minute we are born until we die----UNLESS that drive is
beaten out of us (school does a damned good job of that---and so can parents
who "school-at-home", if they're not really careful!).
Joyce has said that education is a by-product of a joyful unschooling life;
it is not the goal.
We can make education the goal, but who's to say what's educational? Me?
You? The state?
It will vary from individual to individual. And from age to age. What if
your child doesn't make it to adulthood? Would you prefer to say, "Well, at
least he learned what centrifugal force was!" (I'm on a physics kick. Today was
physics day at the State Fair. Hundreds of high school students were there with
their physics assignments----"Be sure NOT to enjoy the fair while you're
here----you're here to WORK!" BLEAH! Duncan (8) learned more than those physics
students AND had fun!)
What's successful will also vary from person to person. I feel we are
extremely successful because we trust the boys. That's the first hurdle---the trust
issue, and I'm guessing it's yours. Making that paradigm shift is HARD.
You will find wildly "successful" unschoolers here. You will find struggling
unschoolers. You will find people who haven't quite yet made the
commitment.You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably"
You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably" because they don't exist.
If they *understood* unschooling, then they wouldn't have left it: they'd
still be unschooling. People who will tell you that they unschooled but that it
didn't work, didn't REALLY unschool. They *may* have done nothing for a while,
and when the kids "never" picked up a textbook, they abandoned unschooling
as a waste of time. They never *got* it.
Swimming: there are those of us in the deep end, splashing, floating,
diving, doing handstands underwater, telling you that the water's fine. There are
several treading water; sometimes reaching out for our hands, sometimes
grabbing the ledge. There are more who are hanging onto the side of the pool,
thinking, "boy, it sure looks like fun out there----how do you float???" There's a
large number actually sitting on the side with their feet dangling in the
water insisting that they're swimming (except for math and reading!<g>). And
there are those sitting in chairs under umbrellas who have stuck a toe in and
decided that that was swimming, that the water was just too cold, and that no
one can float in there.
No one can make you unschool, Virginia. You simply have to trust.
I am a wildly "successful" unschooling mom. I have a teenager who is
absolutely amazing---and only gets more so each and every day. My best friend (44)
was unschooled and is an actress who runs her own production company.
There are websites devoted to blasting unschooling as neglectful. Google it.
Read and read. Then go to unschooling.com and SandraDodd.com and read some
more. All the John Holt books, Alfie Kohn, Frank Smith, Valerie Fitzenreiter,
Ned Vare/Luz Shosie (Valerie and Ned & Luz have unschoolers that went to
college and beyond). Tell your husband to get off his butt and do some of his OWN
research---or did school burn that desire out of him?
My family really gets into discovering new things and figuring things out
and asking questions. If your husband *doesn't*, then maybe he needs to rethink
his own schooling----it obviously didn't do him as much good as unschooling
is doing for *my* family.
Unschooling is for every child. It' not for every parent----too many can't
get past their school baggage. I'm more than thrilled to help someone learn to
swim. But I can't (and won't) drag someone, who hates to even get wet,
kicking and screaming into the pool.
If the husband is pooh-poohing the idea without even researching, then I
have nothing to say: he doesn't want to learn, and as an unschooler, I'm not
going to coerce him by teaching him---it goes against the philosophy! <g> One
tenant of unschooling is that you can't teach someone who is unwilling to
learn!
If he has some questions, I'm available for answers. What does he want to
know?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Glasser
Hi Kelly,
You know I think I've actually had an email from you before. I liked what
you said then, and I like what you say now. :)
Loved the swim analogy. I will present what you have had to say to him and
we'll go from there. His primary concern is that I'll be handicapping
Caitlin and possibly unschooling will sway her from a college education. He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded than
people who don't. He recognizes that not all people who are happy and
productive, are well rounded, etc...went to college. He is just arguing that
the odds are better with a college education. There is no data to say that
unschooling has just as good as odds as a formal education and this bothers
him greatly. He is not one to take a leap of faith in anything. Faith is a
dirty word to him.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 10:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
In a message dated 10/12/2004 9:12:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
virginia@... writes:
I'm for unschooling, my husband is not. I would like to gather as many
objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach
to
homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot
and
failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very
successful,
or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from
folks
who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the
input
I can get. Thanks!<<<<
You won't find the ones who've "failed" here, Virginia.
And to "fail" at unschooling is to plain NOT understand it. If you're
doing
it right, if you trust that your child will learn what he needs when he
needs
it and that learning is everywhere----that we are surrounded by learning
experiences every single day, if you truly BELIEVE that, then unschooling
WILL
"work".
What "work" means is debatable, I guess. In order for it to "work" you
have
to trust in the philosophy---that we are learning machines, that we are
driven
to learn from the minute we are born until we die----UNLESS that drive is
beaten out of us (school does a damned good job of that---and so can
parents
who "school-at-home", if they're not really careful!).
Joyce has said that education is a by-product of a joyful unschooling
life;
it is not the goal.
We can make education the goal, but who's to say what's educational? Me?
You? The state?
It will vary from individual to individual. And from age to age. What if
your child doesn't make it to adulthood? Would you prefer to say, "Well,
at
least he learned what centrifugal force was!" (I'm on a physics kick.
Today was
physics day at the State Fair. Hundreds of high school students were there
with
their physics assignments----"Be sure NOT to enjoy the fair while you're
here----you're here to WORK!" BLEAH! Duncan (8) learned more than those
physics
students AND had fun!)
What's successful will also vary from person to person. I feel we are
extremely successful because we trust the boys. That's the first
hurdle---the trust
issue, and I'm guessing it's yours. Making that paradigm shift is HARD.
You will find wildly "successful" unschoolers here. You will find
struggling
unschoolers. You will find people who haven't quite yet made the
commitment.You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably"
You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably" because they don't
exist.
If they *understood* unschooling, then they wouldn't have left it: they'd
still be unschooling. People who will tell you that they unschooled but
that it
didn't work, didn't REALLY unschool. They *may* have done nothing for a
while,
and when the kids "never" picked up a textbook, they abandoned unschooling
as a waste of time. They never *got* it.
Swimming: there are those of us in the deep end, splashing, floating,
diving, doing handstands underwater, telling you that the water's fine.
There are
several treading water; sometimes reaching out for our hands, sometimes
grabbing the ledge. There are more who are hanging onto the side of the
pool,
thinking, "boy, it sure looks like fun out there----how do you float???"
There's a
large number actually sitting on the side with their feet dangling in the
water insisting that they're swimming (except for math and reading!<g>).
And
there are those sitting in chairs under umbrellas who have stuck a toe in
and
decided that that was swimming, that the water was just too cold, and
that no
one can float in there.
No one can make you unschool, Virginia. You simply have to trust.
I am a wildly "successful" unschooling mom. I have a teenager who is
absolutely amazing---and only gets more so each and every day. My best
friend (44)
was unschooled and is an actress who runs her own production company.
There are websites devoted to blasting unschooling as neglectful. Google
it.
Read and read. Then go to unschooling.com and SandraDodd.com and read some
more. All the John Holt books, Alfie Kohn, Frank Smith, Valerie
Fitzenreiter,
Ned Vare/Luz Shosie (Valerie and Ned & Luz have unschoolers that went to
college and beyond). Tell your husband to get off his butt and do some of
his OWN
research---or did school burn that desire out of him?
My family really gets into discovering new things and figuring things out
and asking questions. If your husband *doesn't*, then maybe he needs to
rethink
his own schooling----it obviously didn't do him as much good as
unschooling
is doing for *my* family.
Unschooling is for every child. It' not for every parent----too many can't
get past their school baggage. I'm more than thrilled to help someone
learn to
swim. But I can't (and won't) drag someone, who hates to even get wet,
kicking and screaming into the pool.
If the husband is pooh-poohing the idea without even researching, then I
have nothing to say: he doesn't want to learn, and as an unschooler, I'm
not
going to coerce him by teaching him---it goes against the philosophy! <g>
One
tenant of unschooling is that you can't teach someone who is unwilling to
learn!
If he has some questions, I'm available for answers. What does he want to
know?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You know I think I've actually had an email from you before. I liked what
you said then, and I like what you say now. :)
Loved the swim analogy. I will present what you have had to say to him and
we'll go from there. His primary concern is that I'll be handicapping
Caitlin and possibly unschooling will sway her from a college education. He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded than
people who don't. He recognizes that not all people who are happy and
productive, are well rounded, etc...went to college. He is just arguing that
the odds are better with a college education. There is no data to say that
unschooling has just as good as odds as a formal education and this bothers
him greatly. He is not one to take a leap of faith in anything. Faith is a
dirty word to him.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 10:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
In a message dated 10/12/2004 9:12:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
virginia@... writes:
I'm for unschooling, my husband is not. I would like to gather as many
objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach
to
homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot
and
failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very
successful,
or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from
folks
who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the
input
I can get. Thanks!<<<<
You won't find the ones who've "failed" here, Virginia.
And to "fail" at unschooling is to plain NOT understand it. If you're
doing
it right, if you trust that your child will learn what he needs when he
needs
it and that learning is everywhere----that we are surrounded by learning
experiences every single day, if you truly BELIEVE that, then unschooling
WILL
"work".
What "work" means is debatable, I guess. In order for it to "work" you
have
to trust in the philosophy---that we are learning machines, that we are
driven
to learn from the minute we are born until we die----UNLESS that drive is
beaten out of us (school does a damned good job of that---and so can
parents
who "school-at-home", if they're not really careful!).
Joyce has said that education is a by-product of a joyful unschooling
life;
it is not the goal.
We can make education the goal, but who's to say what's educational? Me?
You? The state?
It will vary from individual to individual. And from age to age. What if
your child doesn't make it to adulthood? Would you prefer to say, "Well,
at
least he learned what centrifugal force was!" (I'm on a physics kick.
Today was
physics day at the State Fair. Hundreds of high school students were there
with
their physics assignments----"Be sure NOT to enjoy the fair while you're
here----you're here to WORK!" BLEAH! Duncan (8) learned more than those
physics
students AND had fun!)
What's successful will also vary from person to person. I feel we are
extremely successful because we trust the boys. That's the first
hurdle---the trust
issue, and I'm guessing it's yours. Making that paradigm shift is HARD.
You will find wildly "successful" unschoolers here. You will find
struggling
unschoolers. You will find people who haven't quite yet made the
commitment.You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably"
You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably" because they don't
exist.
If they *understood* unschooling, then they wouldn't have left it: they'd
still be unschooling. People who will tell you that they unschooled but
that it
didn't work, didn't REALLY unschool. They *may* have done nothing for a
while,
and when the kids "never" picked up a textbook, they abandoned unschooling
as a waste of time. They never *got* it.
Swimming: there are those of us in the deep end, splashing, floating,
diving, doing handstands underwater, telling you that the water's fine.
There are
several treading water; sometimes reaching out for our hands, sometimes
grabbing the ledge. There are more who are hanging onto the side of the
pool,
thinking, "boy, it sure looks like fun out there----how do you float???"
There's a
large number actually sitting on the side with their feet dangling in the
water insisting that they're swimming (except for math and reading!<g>).
And
there are those sitting in chairs under umbrellas who have stuck a toe in
and
decided that that was swimming, that the water was just too cold, and
that no
one can float in there.
No one can make you unschool, Virginia. You simply have to trust.
I am a wildly "successful" unschooling mom. I have a teenager who is
absolutely amazing---and only gets more so each and every day. My best
friend (44)
was unschooled and is an actress who runs her own production company.
There are websites devoted to blasting unschooling as neglectful. Google
it.
Read and read. Then go to unschooling.com and SandraDodd.com and read some
more. All the John Holt books, Alfie Kohn, Frank Smith, Valerie
Fitzenreiter,
Ned Vare/Luz Shosie (Valerie and Ned & Luz have unschoolers that went to
college and beyond). Tell your husband to get off his butt and do some of
his OWN
research---or did school burn that desire out of him?
My family really gets into discovering new things and figuring things out
and asking questions. If your husband *doesn't*, then maybe he needs to
rethink
his own schooling----it obviously didn't do him as much good as
unschooling
is doing for *my* family.
Unschooling is for every child. It' not for every parent----too many can't
get past their school baggage. I'm more than thrilled to help someone
learn to
swim. But I can't (and won't) drag someone, who hates to even get wet,
kicking and screaming into the pool.
If the husband is pooh-poohing the idea without even researching, then I
have nothing to say: he doesn't want to learn, and as an unschooler, I'm
not
going to coerce him by teaching him---it goes against the philosophy! <g>
One
tenant of unschooling is that you can't teach someone who is unwilling to
learn!
If he has some questions, I'm available for answers. What does he want to
know?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/13/2004 12:00:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
virginia@... writes:
You know I think I've actually had an email from you before.<<<
Yeah---one or two! <g>
we'll go from there. His primary concern is that I'll be handicapping
Caitlin and possibly unschooling will sway her from a college education. He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded than
people who don't. He recognizes that not all people who are happy and
productive, are well rounded, etc...went to college.<<<<<
Statistically unschoolers who chose college do EXTREMELY well there.
*Better* than extremely well there. Ask any college professor whom he'd rather have
in a class: an unschooler who is there because she's pursuing her passion or
a high school graduate who's just there because it's the next step to take
before starting to look for a job. Ask him which student adds more to his
classroom.
Statistically, a person who is unschooled will pursue her passion, will get
a job doing what she loves, will make money while "playing", will not
"settle" for the first guy that asks her to marry him, will have children because
she *wants* them, and will pursue a joyful life.
Thousands of college graduates EACH YEAR realize that their major was a
waste of time not to mention money!----for the $200,000 I would spend to send
Cameron to a four year college, I could pay to open a business for him---and he
wouldn't have to wait for a diploma (or for time to pursue a career: he'd
already HAVE one) OR pay back student loans!
I think your husband hasn't done *any* research what-so-ever on the subject.
I'll bet he's just regurgitating what he's heard all his life. And I heard
it too. My father used to say (and probably still does) that "the number of
years you spend in school is directly proportional to the amount of money
you'll make." Bull-crap. For a while, I was making more grooming dogs than my
husband was with his Masters Degree.
Has he read _The Billionaire Next Door_? Statistically, college grads make
less and are less happy and fulfilled than those who pursue their
passions....well...passionately.
unschooling has just as good as odds as a formal education and this bothers
him greatly.<<<<<
The odds are better if she's happy and passionate. His data is skewed. He's
talking only about schooled children. Creative schooled children are burned
out by fourth or fifth grade. They lose their passions----unless they are
stronger than the pressure of school and society. A child who is free to do and to
be and to change is a horse of a different color---and he won't pull a plow.
I can't count the number of college graduates that I know who are unhappy
and unfulfilled in their jobs. What's your husband's history? College grad?
Degree(s)? What does he do for a living? What does he do to make the living
worthwhile? Does he look forward to mornings? Why? Why not?
He'll hear a lot of dirty words here. Dirty words like Trust, Respect,
Freedom, Laughter, Joy, Learning,----and Faith. Faith in your daughter to be who
she is now---and who she will become.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
virginia@... writes:
You know I think I've actually had an email from you before.<<<
Yeah---one or two! <g>
>>> I liked what you said then, and I like what you say now. :)<<<Thank you.
>>>>Loved the swim analogy. I will present what you have had to say to himand
we'll go from there. His primary concern is that I'll be handicapping
Caitlin and possibly unschooling will sway her from a college education. He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded than
people who don't. He recognizes that not all people who are happy and
productive, are well rounded, etc...went to college.<<<<<
Statistically unschoolers who chose college do EXTREMELY well there.
*Better* than extremely well there. Ask any college professor whom he'd rather have
in a class: an unschooler who is there because she's pursuing her passion or
a high school graduate who's just there because it's the next step to take
before starting to look for a job. Ask him which student adds more to his
classroom.
Statistically, a person who is unschooled will pursue her passion, will get
a job doing what she loves, will make money while "playing", will not
"settle" for the first guy that asks her to marry him, will have children because
she *wants* them, and will pursue a joyful life.
Thousands of college graduates EACH YEAR realize that their major was a
waste of time not to mention money!----for the $200,000 I would spend to send
Cameron to a four year college, I could pay to open a business for him---and he
wouldn't have to wait for a diploma (or for time to pursue a career: he'd
already HAVE one) OR pay back student loans!
I think your husband hasn't done *any* research what-so-ever on the subject.
I'll bet he's just regurgitating what he's heard all his life. And I heard
it too. My father used to say (and probably still does) that "the number of
years you spend in school is directly proportional to the amount of money
you'll make." Bull-crap. For a while, I was making more grooming dogs than my
husband was with his Masters Degree.
Has he read _The Billionaire Next Door_? Statistically, college grads make
less and are less happy and fulfilled than those who pursue their
passions....well...passionately.
>>>>> He is just arguing thatthe odds are better with a college education. There is no data to say that
unschooling has just as good as odds as a formal education and this bothers
him greatly.<<<<<
The odds are better if she's happy and passionate. His data is skewed. He's
talking only about schooled children. Creative schooled children are burned
out by fourth or fifth grade. They lose their passions----unless they are
stronger than the pressure of school and society. A child who is free to do and to
be and to change is a horse of a different color---and he won't pull a plow.
I can't count the number of college graduates that I know who are unhappy
and unfulfilled in their jobs. What's your husband's history? College grad?
Degree(s)? What does he do for a living? What does he do to make the living
worthwhile? Does he look forward to mornings? Why? Why not?
>>>>He is not one to take a leap of faith in anything. Faith is adirty word to him.<<<<<
He'll hear a lot of dirty words here. Dirty words like Trust, Respect,
Freedom, Laughter, Joy, Learning,----and Faith. Faith in your daughter to be who
she is now---and who she will become.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Glasser
Wow you are really good. :)
You have me feeling much better already in the doubts I was starting to have
myself. Thank you for taking time to write to me. :)
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
In a message dated 10/13/2004 12:00:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
virginia@... writes:
You know I think I've actually had an email from you before.<<<
Yeah---one or two! <g>
and
we'll go from there. His primary concern is that I'll be handicapping
Caitlin and possibly unschooling will sway her from a college education.
He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded
than
people who don't. He recognizes that not all people who are happy and
productive, are well rounded, etc...went to college.<<<<<
Statistically unschoolers who chose college do EXTREMELY well there.
*Better* than extremely well there. Ask any college professor whom he'd
rather have
in a class: an unschooler who is there because she's pursuing her passion
or
a high school graduate who's just there because it's the next step to take
before starting to look for a job. Ask him which student adds more to his
classroom.
Statistically, a person who is unschooled will pursue her passion, will
get
a job doing what she loves, will make money while "playing", will not
"settle" for the first guy that asks her to marry him, will have children
because
she *wants* them, and will pursue a joyful life.
Thousands of college graduates EACH YEAR realize that their major was a
waste of time not to mention money!----for the $200,000 I would spend to
send
Cameron to a four year college, I could pay to open a business for
him---and he
wouldn't have to wait for a diploma (or for time to pursue a career: he'd
already HAVE one) OR pay back student loans!
I think your husband hasn't done *any* research what-so-ever on the
subject.
I'll bet he's just regurgitating what he's heard all his life. And I
heard
it too. My father used to say (and probably still does) that "the number
of
years you spend in school is directly proportional to the amount of money
you'll make." Bull-crap. For a while, I was making more grooming dogs
than my
husband was with his Masters Degree.
Has he read _The Billionaire Next Door_? Statistically, college grads make
less and are less happy and fulfilled than those who pursue their
passions....well...passionately.
that
unschooling has just as good as odds as a formal education and this
bothers
him greatly.<<<<<
The odds are better if she's happy and passionate. His data is skewed.
He's
talking only about schooled children. Creative schooled children are
burned
out by fourth or fifth grade. They lose their passions----unless they are
stronger than the pressure of school and society. A child who is free to
do and to
be and to change is a horse of a different color---and he won't pull a
plow.
I can't count the number of college graduates that I know who are unhappy
and unfulfilled in their jobs. What's your husband's history? College
grad?
Degree(s)? What does he do for a living? What does he do to make the
living
worthwhile? Does he look forward to mornings? Why? Why not?
He'll hear a lot of dirty words here. Dirty words like Trust, Respect,
Freedom, Laughter, Joy, Learning,----and Faith. Faith in your daughter to
be who
she is now---and who she will become.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You have me feeling much better already in the doubts I was starting to have
myself. Thank you for taking time to write to me. :)
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
In a message dated 10/13/2004 12:00:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
virginia@... writes:
You know I think I've actually had an email from you before.<<<
Yeah---one or two! <g>
>>> I liked what you said then, and I like what you say now. :)<<<Thank you.
>>>>Loved the swim analogy. I will present what you have had to say tohim
and
we'll go from there. His primary concern is that I'll be handicapping
Caitlin and possibly unschooling will sway her from a college education.
He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded
than
people who don't. He recognizes that not all people who are happy and
productive, are well rounded, etc...went to college.<<<<<
Statistically unschoolers who chose college do EXTREMELY well there.
*Better* than extremely well there. Ask any college professor whom he'd
rather have
in a class: an unschooler who is there because she's pursuing her passion
or
a high school graduate who's just there because it's the next step to take
before starting to look for a job. Ask him which student adds more to his
classroom.
Statistically, a person who is unschooled will pursue her passion, will
get
a job doing what she loves, will make money while "playing", will not
"settle" for the first guy that asks her to marry him, will have children
because
she *wants* them, and will pursue a joyful life.
Thousands of college graduates EACH YEAR realize that their major was a
waste of time not to mention money!----for the $200,000 I would spend to
send
Cameron to a four year college, I could pay to open a business for
him---and he
wouldn't have to wait for a diploma (or for time to pursue a career: he'd
already HAVE one) OR pay back student loans!
I think your husband hasn't done *any* research what-so-ever on the
subject.
I'll bet he's just regurgitating what he's heard all his life. And I
heard
it too. My father used to say (and probably still does) that "the number
of
years you spend in school is directly proportional to the amount of money
you'll make." Bull-crap. For a while, I was making more grooming dogs
than my
husband was with his Masters Degree.
Has he read _The Billionaire Next Door_? Statistically, college grads make
less and are less happy and fulfilled than those who pursue their
passions....well...passionately.
>>>>> He is just arguing thatthe odds are better with a college education. There is no data to say
that
unschooling has just as good as odds as a formal education and this
bothers
him greatly.<<<<<
The odds are better if she's happy and passionate. His data is skewed.
He's
talking only about schooled children. Creative schooled children are
burned
out by fourth or fifth grade. They lose their passions----unless they are
stronger than the pressure of school and society. A child who is free to
do and to
be and to change is a horse of a different color---and he won't pull a
plow.
I can't count the number of college graduates that I know who are unhappy
and unfulfilled in their jobs. What's your husband's history? College
grad?
Degree(s)? What does he do for a living? What does he do to make the
living
worthwhile? Does he look forward to mornings? Why? Why not?
>>>>He is not one to take a leap of faith in anything. Faith is adirty word to him.<<<<<
He'll hear a lot of dirty words here. Dirty words like Trust, Respect,
Freedom, Laughter, Joy, Learning,----and Faith. Faith in your daughter to
be who
she is now---and who she will become.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/13/2004 12:59:54 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
unschooling has just as good as odds as a formal education and this bothers
him greatly.<<<<<
And does he know how many college grads are unemployed?????
Thousands---millions!
BAD odds, if you ask me.
People who see my car inevitably have a question or two. <g> I usually smile
and say, "Yeah, I scare a lot of people."
This is so outside the average American's comfort level that it's not even
funny (unless you're sitting on *this* side of the fence---we're laughing our
butts off! <G>). But most folks can't wrap their heads around this one little
bit. And rather than think about it, just ignore it.
BUT....
If they would, for a moment, step OUT of the box and look at it completely
objectively. Seriously weigh the pros and cons. OBJECTIVELY. Actually compare
and contrast a life filled with passion to a life filled with classrooms. If
they were to examine it critically, they would see, without a doubt, that a
passionate life beats a tradiational one. Hands down. Every time. When you
start thinking creatively and imaginatively and with your passions in mind---when
you realize that there's nothing that can stand in your way because *you*
will find a way----THEN it makes so much sense. THEN you can see that a life of
freedom to be and to become who you are is the only way that will work
anyway.
Your husband *may* be past that ability. Many people are. But if he's
willing to step outside his comfort zone, open his mind, and examine his thoughts
on this, MAYBE he can give his daughter a joyful life----and the shortest
route to a joyful adulthood is a joyful childhood---so start now.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbcdlovejo@... writes:
>>>>> He is just arguing thatthe odds are better with a college education. There is no data to say that
unschooling has just as good as odds as a formal education and this bothers
him greatly.<<<<<
And does he know how many college grads are unemployed?????
Thousands---millions!
BAD odds, if you ask me.
People who see my car inevitably have a question or two. <g> I usually smile
and say, "Yeah, I scare a lot of people."
This is so outside the average American's comfort level that it's not even
funny (unless you're sitting on *this* side of the fence---we're laughing our
butts off! <G>). But most folks can't wrap their heads around this one little
bit. And rather than think about it, just ignore it.
BUT....
If they would, for a moment, step OUT of the box and look at it completely
objectively. Seriously weigh the pros and cons. OBJECTIVELY. Actually compare
and contrast a life filled with passion to a life filled with classrooms. If
they were to examine it critically, they would see, without a doubt, that a
passionate life beats a tradiational one. Hands down. Every time. When you
start thinking creatively and imaginatively and with your passions in mind---when
you realize that there's nothing that can stand in your way because *you*
will find a way----THEN it makes so much sense. THEN you can see that a life of
freedom to be and to become who you are is the only way that will work
anyway.
Your husband *may* be past that ability. Many people are. But if he's
willing to step outside his comfort zone, open his mind, and examine his thoughts
on this, MAYBE he can give his daughter a joyful life----and the shortest
route to a joyful adulthood is a joyful childhood---so start now.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/13/2004 1:07:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
virginia@... writes:
Wow you are really good. :)
You have me feeling much better already in the doubts I was starting to have
myself. Thank you for taking time to write to me. :)<<<<
You're welcome---and I'm not writing *just* to you---there are over two
hundred people on this list! I may hit a home run with one or two! <G>
I like talking with folks who *want* to get it---who are looking to make
that paradigm shift----who want to let go of the side and jump in.
It's something I'm passionate about. And you know what? When you're
*passionate*, <g> you can get pretty good doing what you love! <G> And that's why Ren
& I started this list---to target new unschoolers and unschooling-wannabees.
We LIKE to share our passions---another by-product of doing what you love
and believe in!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
virginia@... writes:
Wow you are really good. :)
You have me feeling much better already in the doubts I was starting to have
myself. Thank you for taking time to write to me. :)<<<<
You're welcome---and I'm not writing *just* to you---there are over two
hundred people on this list! I may hit a home run with one or two! <G>
I like talking with folks who *want* to get it---who are looking to make
that paradigm shift----who want to let go of the side and jump in.
It's something I'm passionate about. And you know what? When you're
*passionate*, <g> you can get pretty good doing what you love! <G> And that's why Ren
& I started this list---to target new unschoolers and unschooling-wannabees.
We LIKE to share our passions---another by-product of doing what you love
and believe in!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela S
Wow! Kelly really summed it all up so very nicely that I don't feel like I
have anything to add, but I just wanted to say that the unschooling way of
life is successful for my family. My girls are 8 and 9.5 and have always
been unschooled. It gets easier to not worry the longer you've been at it.
Our lives are so joyful! Learning happens all the time in too many ways to
count. I am so very thankful that I've discovered this way of life.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
have anything to add, but I just wanted to say that the unschooling way of
life is successful for my family. My girls are 8 and 9.5 and have always
been unschooled. It gets easier to not worry the longer you've been at it.
Our lives are so joyful! Learning happens all the time in too many ways to
count. I am so very thankful that I've discovered this way of life.
Angela ~ Maine
game-enthusiast@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sheila
> You're welcome---and I'm not writing *just* to you---there are overtwo
> hundred people on this list! I may hit a home run with one or two!<G>
>Dear Dear Kelly:
Well you hit a home run with me! Thank you so very much for the past
posts on this subject. A few weeks ago, after burning out on a
curriculum we thought we liked after only two weeks of working with
it, I had taken the plunge. Now after pressure from family members,
I am not sure if I want to swim back to the side and "say I am
swimming". I have the pressure of our family living with my parents
and my dad (who is very ill - which is why we are here) asking when
my dd is going to do English. My husband and I just made the
decision to unschool after years of home"schooling" because (1) of
the situation we are in and wanting our kids to relax and enjoy as
much of life as they can; and (2) I know it fits best for my dd, but
am not sure about my ds. He likes some structure in his days.
I've been deschooling (them and me) for a couple of weeks now - which
of course we have to from the curriculum I've chosen.
Now being in the center of outside family and not the freedom of my
own house, in the midst of illness, the pressure can get high at
times. It's hard because there are not a lot of unschooling families
out there living with ill parents (or are there?) I've met quite a
few homeschooling families living with parents but they are doing the
sit down strict curriculums that I just won't do. I know the
curriculums allow us to look like we are doing something. I know
unschooling looks like they are doing nothing but I also know my kids
are learning all day long. Hard to explain to some folks! Trust is
the BIG word, that's for sure. Oh well, I'll dangle on the side and
read, read, read some more!
Thanks again.
Sheila
J. Stauffer
I think successful unschoolers look differently, a lot of the time, than successful schoolers.
Successful schoolers have learned how to do a lot of things superficially in an order that most school officials know how to predict. If you are in 7th grade successfully, the school can predict that you know how to work fraction problems, how to carry in subtraction, etc. because those were taught at earlier grades. It is an assembly line approach.
Successful unschoolers have learned a lot of things superficially but in a completely unpredictable order. They usually know a few topics that are near and dear to their hearts in great depth. But a 13 year old unschooler may or may not know how to carry in subtraction but when they do come up against something they don't know, they know how to learn it quickly. It is more of an artistic approach.
We have unschooled for about 7 years. My three youngest wanted to try out school this year (2 in K, one in First). The teachers initially wanted to put them all in special ed.. Michelle couldn't completely write her name. Dan held his pencil funny. Marsie wasn't reading at Level 3. All of these things are arbitrary standards that the school has set up, not developmentally based at all, and all in one skill area.
So we went through the rigamarole of meetings, etc.. I had to be very clear with the teachers about my philosophy (unschooling) and that we wouldn't be enforcing homework and that I wasn't worried about the kids, etc.. I made sure the teachers knew that the kids were there by choice (which freaked them out) and that if their homework was done it was because the child chose to do it (which freaked them out because the kids usually like to do it).
I just had my regular teacher conferences and the teachers have had time to get to know the kids. Now they are described as the "perfect" students. They are way above the arbitrary standards set for science and math skills. In fact, the teacher was asking me how my kids learned math so well. I told her it was from using the microwave and making sure nobody in our large family was taking more than their fair share of fish sticks at dinner. I told her Danny learned his sight words by playing video games (freaked her out). But the biggest thing is that the kids are truly interested in what is going on and I think that comes from knowing they are there by choice.
Now Adriane (now almost 14) and Zach (11) went to school before we found unschooling. They have zero desire to return. Adriane didn't pay any attention to spelling until last year when she began emailing friends. She is awesome at math theory and learns math formulas as they come up in her life. She has been able to live a life that would be impossible if she were tied to a curriculum. She works out 15 hours per week and works part time at the gym teaching little kids gymnastics. She hopes to be a gymnastics coach and has met Bella Karolyi and hopes to do an internship with him this summer. She raises show animals which takes a couple of hours work each day and she travels the state doing that.
Zach is just learning to read but is doing it on his own and joyfully. He comes to me asking to read to me. When he was in school he simply wasn't ready developmentally to read and so was made to feel like something was wrong with him. It took him many years of not even touching a book to get over it. His biggest skills are spatial which aren't even addressed by curriculums. He plays pool like a pro, he knows where the baseball is going after it is hit, he has been able to dribble a ball since he was two and this year was a member of the National Skeet and Trap Shooting championship team for his age group. Again, traveling the state to do this. The school says "that's just extra-curricular".....I say its physics theory.
Anyway, that is our story.
Julie S.
Successful schoolers have learned how to do a lot of things superficially in an order that most school officials know how to predict. If you are in 7th grade successfully, the school can predict that you know how to work fraction problems, how to carry in subtraction, etc. because those were taught at earlier grades. It is an assembly line approach.
Successful unschoolers have learned a lot of things superficially but in a completely unpredictable order. They usually know a few topics that are near and dear to their hearts in great depth. But a 13 year old unschooler may or may not know how to carry in subtraction but when they do come up against something they don't know, they know how to learn it quickly. It is more of an artistic approach.
We have unschooled for about 7 years. My three youngest wanted to try out school this year (2 in K, one in First). The teachers initially wanted to put them all in special ed.. Michelle couldn't completely write her name. Dan held his pencil funny. Marsie wasn't reading at Level 3. All of these things are arbitrary standards that the school has set up, not developmentally based at all, and all in one skill area.
So we went through the rigamarole of meetings, etc.. I had to be very clear with the teachers about my philosophy (unschooling) and that we wouldn't be enforcing homework and that I wasn't worried about the kids, etc.. I made sure the teachers knew that the kids were there by choice (which freaked them out) and that if their homework was done it was because the child chose to do it (which freaked them out because the kids usually like to do it).
I just had my regular teacher conferences and the teachers have had time to get to know the kids. Now they are described as the "perfect" students. They are way above the arbitrary standards set for science and math skills. In fact, the teacher was asking me how my kids learned math so well. I told her it was from using the microwave and making sure nobody in our large family was taking more than their fair share of fish sticks at dinner. I told her Danny learned his sight words by playing video games (freaked her out). But the biggest thing is that the kids are truly interested in what is going on and I think that comes from knowing they are there by choice.
Now Adriane (now almost 14) and Zach (11) went to school before we found unschooling. They have zero desire to return. Adriane didn't pay any attention to spelling until last year when she began emailing friends. She is awesome at math theory and learns math formulas as they come up in her life. She has been able to live a life that would be impossible if she were tied to a curriculum. She works out 15 hours per week and works part time at the gym teaching little kids gymnastics. She hopes to be a gymnastics coach and has met Bella Karolyi and hopes to do an internship with him this summer. She raises show animals which takes a couple of hours work each day and she travels the state doing that.
Zach is just learning to read but is doing it on his own and joyfully. He comes to me asking to read to me. When he was in school he simply wasn't ready developmentally to read and so was made to feel like something was wrong with him. It took him many years of not even touching a book to get over it. His biggest skills are spatial which aren't even addressed by curriculums. He plays pool like a pro, he knows where the baseball is going after it is hit, he has been able to dribble a ball since he was two and this year was a member of the National Skeet and Trap Shooting championship team for his age group. Again, traveling the state to do this. The school says "that's just extra-curricular".....I say its physics theory.
Anyway, that is our story.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: kbcdlovejo@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
In a message dated 10/12/2004 9:12:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
virginia@... writes:
I'm for unschooling, my husband is not. I would like to gather as many
objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach to
homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot and
failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very successful,
or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from folks
who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the input
I can get. Thanks!<<<<
You won't find the ones who've "failed" here, Virginia.
And to "fail" at unschooling is to plain NOT understand it. If you're doing
it right, if you trust that your child will learn what he needs when he needs
it and that learning is everywhere----that we are surrounded by learning
experiences every single day, if you truly BELIEVE that, then unschooling WILL
"work".
What "work" means is debatable, I guess. In order for it to "work" you have
to trust in the philosophy---that we are learning machines, that we are driven
to learn from the minute we are born until we die----UNLESS that drive is
beaten out of us (school does a damned good job of that---and so can parents
who "school-at-home", if they're not really careful!).
Joyce has said that education is a by-product of a joyful unschooling life;
it is not the goal.
We can make education the goal, but who's to say what's educational? Me?
You? The state?
It will vary from individual to individual. And from age to age. What if
your child doesn't make it to adulthood? Would you prefer to say, "Well, at
least he learned what centrifugal force was!" (I'm on a physics kick. Today was
physics day at the State Fair. Hundreds of high school students were there with
their physics assignments----"Be sure NOT to enjoy the fair while you're
here----you're here to WORK!" BLEAH! Duncan (8) learned more than those physics
students AND had fun!)
What's successful will also vary from person to person. I feel we are
extremely successful because we trust the boys. That's the first hurdle---the trust
issue, and I'm guessing it's yours. Making that paradigm shift is HARD.
You will find wildly "successful" unschoolers here. You will find struggling
unschoolers. You will find people who haven't quite yet made the
commitment.You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably"
You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably" because they don't exist.
If they *understood* unschooling, then they wouldn't have left it: they'd
still be unschooling. People who will tell you that they unschooled but that it
didn't work, didn't REALLY unschool. They *may* have done nothing for a while,
and when the kids "never" picked up a textbook, they abandoned unschooling
as a waste of time. They never *got* it.
Swimming: there are those of us in the deep end, splashing, floating,
diving, doing handstands underwater, telling you that the water's fine. There are
several treading water; sometimes reaching out for our hands, sometimes
grabbing the ledge. There are more who are hanging onto the side of the pool,
thinking, "boy, it sure looks like fun out there----how do you float???" There's a
large number actually sitting on the side with their feet dangling in the
water insisting that they're swimming (except for math and reading!<g>). And
there are those sitting in chairs under umbrellas who have stuck a toe in and
decided that that was swimming, that the water was just too cold, and that no
one can float in there.
No one can make you unschool, Virginia. You simply have to trust.
I am a wildly "successful" unschooling mom. I have a teenager who is
absolutely amazing---and only gets more so each and every day. My best friend (44)
was unschooled and is an actress who runs her own production company.
There are websites devoted to blasting unschooling as neglectful. Google it.
Read and read. Then go to unschooling.com and SandraDodd.com and read some
more. All the John Holt books, Alfie Kohn, Frank Smith, Valerie Fitzenreiter,
Ned Vare/Luz Shosie (Valerie and Ned & Luz have unschoolers that went to
college and beyond). Tell your husband to get off his butt and do some of his OWN
research---or did school burn that desire out of him?
My family really gets into discovering new things and figuring things out
and asking questions. If your husband *doesn't*, then maybe he needs to rethink
his own schooling----it obviously didn't do him as much good as unschooling
is doing for *my* family.
Unschooling is for every child. It' not for every parent----too many can't
get past their school baggage. I'm more than thrilled to help someone learn to
swim. But I can't (and won't) drag someone, who hates to even get wet,
kicking and screaming into the pool.
If the husband is pooh-poohing the idea without even researching, then I
have nothing to say: he doesn't want to learn, and as an unschooler, I'm not
going to coerce him by teaching him---it goes against the philosophy! <g> One
tenant of unschooling is that you can't teach someone who is unwilling to
learn!
If he has some questions, I'm available for answers. What does he want to
know?
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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J. Stauffer
<<<<<He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded than
people who don't.>>>>>
Here is the problem with that statistic.....Most of the people in the "didn't go to college" category are people that didn't do well in traditional school. They don't believe in their ability to learn. They have been told their entire lives that if they can't get good grades or whatever, they will be failures. Self-fulfilling prophecies are very real.
Another thing to consider is that most people who go to college don't finish. They don't have a clue who they are or what they want. Suddenly, they are having to make all these decisions with very little experience in that skill. It gets overwhelming for them.
Adriane used to say she would never go to college and as a gymnastics coach hopeful it certainly isn't required to enter the field. Now, after being on several college campuses for meets and realizing that she can continue competing through college, she wants to go and is already checking out programs.
Unschoolers often go to college. The difference is they are choosing to go for a reason, not just because it is the next thing they are supposed to do on the life list.
Julie S.
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded than
people who don't.>>>>>
Here is the problem with that statistic.....Most of the people in the "didn't go to college" category are people that didn't do well in traditional school. They don't believe in their ability to learn. They have been told their entire lives that if they can't get good grades or whatever, they will be failures. Self-fulfilling prophecies are very real.
Another thing to consider is that most people who go to college don't finish. They don't have a clue who they are or what they want. Suddenly, they are having to make all these decisions with very little experience in that skill. It gets overwhelming for them.
Adriane used to say she would never go to college and as a gymnastics coach hopeful it certainly isn't required to enter the field. Now, after being on several college campuses for meets and realizing that she can continue competing through college, she wants to go and is already checking out programs.
Unschoolers often go to college. The difference is they are choosing to go for a reason, not just because it is the next thing they are supposed to do on the life list.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Virginia Glasser
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 11:03 PM
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
Hi Kelly,
You know I think I've actually had an email from you before. I liked what
you said then, and I like what you say now. :)
Loved the swim analogy. I will present what you have had to say to him and
we'll go from there. His primary concern is that I'll be handicapping
Caitlin and possibly unschooling will sway her from a college education. He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded than
people who don't. He recognizes that not all people who are happy and
productive, are well rounded, etc...went to college. He is just arguing that
the odds are better with a college education. There is no data to say that
unschooling has just as good as odds as a formal education and this bothers
him greatly. He is not one to take a leap of faith in anything. Faith is a
dirty word to him.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Tuesday, October 12, 2004 10:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
In a message dated 10/12/2004 9:12:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
virginia@... writes:
I'm for unschooling, my husband is not. I would like to gather as many
objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach
to
homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot
and
failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very
successful,
or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from
folks
who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the
input
I can get. Thanks!<<<<
You won't find the ones who've "failed" here, Virginia.
And to "fail" at unschooling is to plain NOT understand it. If you're
doing
it right, if you trust that your child will learn what he needs when he
needs
it and that learning is everywhere----that we are surrounded by learning
experiences every single day, if you truly BELIEVE that, then unschooling
WILL
"work".
What "work" means is debatable, I guess. In order for it to "work" you
have
to trust in the philosophy---that we are learning machines, that we are
driven
to learn from the minute we are born until we die----UNLESS that drive is
beaten out of us (school does a damned good job of that---and so can
parents
who "school-at-home", if they're not really careful!).
Joyce has said that education is a by-product of a joyful unschooling
life;
it is not the goal.
We can make education the goal, but who's to say what's educational? Me?
You? The state?
It will vary from individual to individual. And from age to age. What if
your child doesn't make it to adulthood? Would you prefer to say, "Well,
at
least he learned what centrifugal force was!" (I'm on a physics kick.
Today was
physics day at the State Fair. Hundreds of high school students were there
with
their physics assignments----"Be sure NOT to enjoy the fair while you're
here----you're here to WORK!" BLEAH! Duncan (8) learned more than those
physics
students AND had fun!)
What's successful will also vary from person to person. I feel we are
extremely successful because we trust the boys. That's the first
hurdle---the trust
issue, and I'm guessing it's yours. Making that paradigm shift is HARD.
You will find wildly "successful" unschoolers here. You will find
struggling
unschoolers. You will find people who haven't quite yet made the
commitment.You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably"
You won't find unschoolers who "failed miserably" because they don't
exist.
If they *understood* unschooling, then they wouldn't have left it: they'd
still be unschooling. People who will tell you that they unschooled but
that it
didn't work, didn't REALLY unschool. They *may* have done nothing for a
while,
and when the kids "never" picked up a textbook, they abandoned unschooling
as a waste of time. They never *got* it.
Swimming: there are those of us in the deep end, splashing, floating,
diving, doing handstands underwater, telling you that the water's fine.
There are
several treading water; sometimes reaching out for our hands, sometimes
grabbing the ledge. There are more who are hanging onto the side of the
pool,
thinking, "boy, it sure looks like fun out there----how do you float???"
There's a
large number actually sitting on the side with their feet dangling in the
water insisting that they're swimming (except for math and reading!<g>).
And
there are those sitting in chairs under umbrellas who have stuck a toe in
and
decided that that was swimming, that the water was just too cold, and
that no
one can float in there.
No one can make you unschool, Virginia. You simply have to trust.
I am a wildly "successful" unschooling mom. I have a teenager who is
absolutely amazing---and only gets more so each and every day. My best
friend (44)
was unschooled and is an actress who runs her own production company.
There are websites devoted to blasting unschooling as neglectful. Google
it.
Read and read. Then go to unschooling.com and SandraDodd.com and read some
more. All the John Holt books, Alfie Kohn, Frank Smith, Valerie
Fitzenreiter,
Ned Vare/Luz Shosie (Valerie and Ned & Luz have unschoolers that went to
college and beyond). Tell your husband to get off his butt and do some of
his OWN
research---or did school burn that desire out of him?
My family really gets into discovering new things and figuring things out
and asking questions. If your husband *doesn't*, then maybe he needs to
rethink
his own schooling----it obviously didn't do him as much good as
unschooling
is doing for *my* family.
Unschooling is for every child. It' not for every parent----too many can't
get past their school baggage. I'm more than thrilled to help someone
learn to
swim. But I can't (and won't) drag someone, who hates to even get wet,
kicking and screaming into the pool.
If the husband is pooh-poohing the idea without even researching, then I
have nothing to say: he doesn't want to learn, and as an unschooler, I'm
not
going to coerce him by teaching him---it goes against the philosophy! <g>
One
tenant of unschooling is that you can't teach someone who is unwilling to
learn!
If he has some questions, I'm available for answers. What does he want to
know?
~Kelly
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J. Stauffer
<<<I'm not sure about my son. He likes some structure.>>>
So give him some structure....but it doesn't have to be in a workbook unless that is how he likes it.
When we first started unschooling, dh wasn't exactly on board. The kids kept asking when we were going to do school. So I started projects. We put in a garden, we built a shed, we raised animals, we baked, we played on the computer. You know how kids are....you start something and they definitely want in to see what it is all about.
The kids had a bit of structure. I had specific skills to talk to dh about when he got home. After a bit, the kids would either continue the project with me or wander off. Dh calmed down and realized that the kids were learning.
Now I always have my projects going that sometimes the kids are interested in (Marsie, age 7, is helping me spin yarn). But the kids have their projects. Adriane is remodeling her bedroom, doing all the planning, painting, building herself. Zach is practicing golf.
My mom used to send me all the articles on education and traditional homeschooling. I would try to explain to her that we weren't doing that. Then she spent a week with the kids. She said "I don't know how it works, but it obviously works." She works in admissions at a state university.
Julie S.
So give him some structure....but it doesn't have to be in a workbook unless that is how he likes it.
When we first started unschooling, dh wasn't exactly on board. The kids kept asking when we were going to do school. So I started projects. We put in a garden, we built a shed, we raised animals, we baked, we played on the computer. You know how kids are....you start something and they definitely want in to see what it is all about.
The kids had a bit of structure. I had specific skills to talk to dh about when he got home. After a bit, the kids would either continue the project with me or wander off. Dh calmed down and realized that the kids were learning.
Now I always have my projects going that sometimes the kids are interested in (Marsie, age 7, is helping me spin yarn). But the kids have their projects. Adriane is remodeling her bedroom, doing all the planning, painting, building herself. Zach is practicing golf.
My mom used to send me all the articles on education and traditional homeschooling. I would try to explain to her that we weren't doing that. Then she spent a week with the kids. She said "I don't know how it works, but it obviously works." She works in admissions at a state university.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: Sheila
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 6:19 AM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Opinions wanted on Unschooling
> You're welcome---and I'm not writing *just* to you---there are over
two
> hundred people on this list! I may hit a home run with one or two!
<G>
>
Dear Dear Kelly:
Well you hit a home run with me! Thank you so very much for the past
posts on this subject. A few weeks ago, after burning out on a
curriculum we thought we liked after only two weeks of working with
it, I had taken the plunge. Now after pressure from family members,
I am not sure if I want to swim back to the side and "say I am
swimming". I have the pressure of our family living with my parents
and my dad (who is very ill - which is why we are here) asking when
my dd is going to do English. My husband and I just made the
decision to unschool after years of home"schooling" because (1) of
the situation we are in and wanting our kids to relax and enjoy as
much of life as they can; and (2) The big question is... HOW??? I will have to work on that.
Anyone have any thoughts? Suggestions? I've been deschooling (them and me) for a couple of weeks now - which
of course we have to from the curriculum I've chosen.
Now being in the center of outside family and not the freedom of my
own house, in the midst of illness, the pressure can get high at
times. It's hard because there are not a lot of unschooling families
out there living with ill parents (or are there?) I've met quite a
few homeschooling families living with parents but they are doing the
sit down strict curriculums that I just won't do. I know the
curriculums allow us to look like we are doing something. I know
unschooling looks like they are doing nothing but I also know my kids
are learning all day long. Hard to explain to some folks! Trust is
the BIG word, that's for sure. Oh well, I'll dangle on the side and
read, read, read some more!
Thanks again.
Sheila
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[email protected]
> Now being in the center of outside family and not the freedom of myI don't know about your particular situation, but there are those of us that do get a lot of strife from our families. My mother absolutely detests that I am homeschooling (I don't even mention the word unschooling around her) We see each other often and things are fine as long as we don't talk about homeschooling, religion, poilitics, gay rights, vegetarianism, me working from home, or health care options. (So we talk about knitting, home redecorating, and gardening - all safe subjects). Just yesterday she was at my house and Keon (6yo) and I were rolling change. Mom asked Keon, "So what did you do for school today." Keon answered (a tad indignantly), "I'm *home*schooled now!" Mom said, "Yes; but what did you do for homeschool." He just rolled his eyes. So I looked up at her and said, "Ssshhhh, we are doing math." (and rolled my eyes). We then separated pennies into pre-1983 and post 1983 all while looking for older pennies (pre-1950 wheat pennies - we actually found one). So I looked at her and said, "History." Then Keon mentioned that we needed to shine the pennies (we are going on a Disney trip soon and we collect pressed pennies) I asked him how we could shine them and he said, "If we put them in catsup or spaghetti sauce they will get clean." I again looked at Mom and said, "Science." She shut up (for now). I know we will have many more conversations on how my children will be behind their peers (NOT) or missing in social opportunities (oh like resource day, gymnastics, scouting, church) and unprepared for life after their teen years (sort of like their father who has a professional job and is essentially "home-colleged.")
> own house, in the midst of illness, the pressure can get high at
> times. It's hard because there are not a lot of unschooling families
> out there living with ill parents (or are there?)
My mother has several friends who are educators or school administrators and they all are very nice people (I know them as well). They keep telling my mother about these wonderful programs taht are in their schools. How my children could excel by being enrolled. How much they would benefit from the daily social environment at their particular schools. My mother buys into it. She doesn't understand why I refused to submit an application for the arts magnate for my two younger children. She doesn't understand why I think that magnate schools are wrong and that *all* schools should have the same opportunities that the "chosen few" are given.
Of course I don't live with it on a daily basis. It does come up often enough, though, to make it annoying. I would probably do about the same I am doing now, but then I'm pretty surly when it comes to people pushing at my decisions.
Michelle
Michelle
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/13/2004 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
<<<<<He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded than
people who don't.>>>>>
******************************************************************************
**************************
forgive me, because this is sort of unrelated, but my favorite commercial
these days is the one that says "a high school graduate will make $200,000 more
in his lifetime than a non-grad". Hmmm....$200,000 at say 45 years in the
work force is only $4444.44 more a year!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
<<<<<He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded than
people who don't.>>>>>
******************************************************************************
**************************
forgive me, because this is sort of unrelated, but my favorite commercial
these days is the one that says "a high school graduate will make $200,000 more
in his lifetime than a non-grad". Hmmm....$200,000 at say 45 years in the
work force is only $4444.44 more a year!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/13/2004 7:21:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
luv2lrnhs@... writes:
(2) I know it fits best for my dd, but
am not sure about my ds. He likes some structure in his days.
I've been deschooling (them and me) for a couple of weeks now - which
of course we have to from the curriculum I've chosen. <<<<<
Structure can come in the form of a daytimer. Both my boys have one---well.
Cameron has his own; Duncan shares mine. Cameron's more my dreamer----very
artistic and "go-with-the-flow", but he's soooo busy lately, that he *needs* to
keep a handle on what he's doing when.
Duncan likes more structure. He likes knowing what we're doing tomorrow and
the day after and the day after. He's constantly aware of what time it is. He
likes a *plan*. (Makes it harder for me sometimes, 'cause I'm a little more
"take-it-as-it-comes"!) Today we're going to mix up a bunch of stuff in the
kitchen. I think I need to go get some dry ice! <g>
times. <<<<
You have my sympathy. I can only imagine!
unschooling looks like they are doing nothing but I also know my kids
are learning all day long. Hard to explain to some folks!<<<<<<
You *could* just blow them off. <g> That's my choice! <BWG>
But one way would be to have them *see* you documenting the learning that IS
happening every day. This would help in several ways: the extended family
would see *you* taking an active role in the learning process (as the
"teacher", you must "know"----we "need" to have standards and progress and
documentation and comparisons to make sure we're learning! <G>), you and your husband
could put your fears to rest, and the foundation for that next unschooling book
would be in the works! <g>
Use a teacher's log, if that would make it easier----they're at all the
teacher supply stores. A journal. A diary. A daytimer could be enough----I keep
all our stuff in there---especially "firsts"---like Cameron's first movie
schedule and Duncan's first reading of a book. Things like multiplication: "Hey
mom, did you know five fives are 25?" Or yesterday's discussion of molecules
(here in our house). The poem Duncan wrote. My "NON-reading" 16 year old's
picking up Hesse's _Siddhartha_ to read! <BWG> I have to document due to my
state laws (and "keep attendance" :-P~~~*), so it's become habit. But it's fun to
look through the last few years to see what we've "learned".
That way, if someone asks----AND you're in a generous mood! <g>----you can
reel off what's been discussed and thought through and attempted and learned
and mastered. All in a handy dandy notebook. <g>
If you're NOT in a generous mood, you can tell them to take a hike. These
are *your* children, and *you* will make the decisions regarding their
education. Thank you. End of discussion. <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
luv2lrnhs@... writes:
(2) I know it fits best for my dd, but
am not sure about my ds. He likes some structure in his days.
I've been deschooling (them and me) for a couple of weeks now - which
of course we have to from the curriculum I've chosen. <<<<<
Structure can come in the form of a daytimer. Both my boys have one---well.
Cameron has his own; Duncan shares mine. Cameron's more my dreamer----very
artistic and "go-with-the-flow", but he's soooo busy lately, that he *needs* to
keep a handle on what he's doing when.
Duncan likes more structure. He likes knowing what we're doing tomorrow and
the day after and the day after. He's constantly aware of what time it is. He
likes a *plan*. (Makes it harder for me sometimes, 'cause I'm a little more
"take-it-as-it-comes"!) Today we're going to mix up a bunch of stuff in the
kitchen. I think I need to go get some dry ice! <g>
>>>>Now being in the center of outside family and not the freedom of myown house, in the midst of illness, the pressure can get high at
times. <<<<
You have my sympathy. I can only imagine!
>>>>>>> I know thecurriculums allow us to look like we are doing something. I know
unschooling looks like they are doing nothing but I also know my kids
are learning all day long. Hard to explain to some folks!<<<<<<
You *could* just blow them off. <g> That's my choice! <BWG>
But one way would be to have them *see* you documenting the learning that IS
happening every day. This would help in several ways: the extended family
would see *you* taking an active role in the learning process (as the
"teacher", you must "know"----we "need" to have standards and progress and
documentation and comparisons to make sure we're learning! <G>), you and your husband
could put your fears to rest, and the foundation for that next unschooling book
would be in the works! <g>
Use a teacher's log, if that would make it easier----they're at all the
teacher supply stores. A journal. A diary. A daytimer could be enough----I keep
all our stuff in there---especially "firsts"---like Cameron's first movie
schedule and Duncan's first reading of a book. Things like multiplication: "Hey
mom, did you know five fives are 25?" Or yesterday's discussion of molecules
(here in our house). The poem Duncan wrote. My "NON-reading" 16 year old's
picking up Hesse's _Siddhartha_ to read! <BWG> I have to document due to my
state laws (and "keep attendance" :-P~~~*), so it's become habit. But it's fun to
look through the last few years to see what we've "learned".
That way, if someone asks----AND you're in a generous mood! <g>----you can
reel off what's been discussed and thought through and attempted and learned
and mastered. All in a handy dandy notebook. <g>
If you're NOT in a generous mood, you can tell them to take a hike. These
are *your* children, and *you* will make the decisions regarding their
education. Thank you. End of discussion. <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/13/2004 10:19:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
Leslie530@... writes:
forgive me, because this is sort of unrelated, but my favorite commercial
these days is the one that says "a high school graduate will make $200,000
more
in his lifetime than a non-grad". Hmmm....$200,000 at say 45 years in the
work force is only $4444.44 more a year!<<<<
And that doesn't include the four lost years of income, the college tuition,
or the repayment of student loans! <G>
A college education ain't all it's cracked up to be! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie530@... writes:
forgive me, because this is sort of unrelated, but my favorite commercial
these days is the one that says "a high school graduate will make $200,000
more
in his lifetime than a non-grad". Hmmm....$200,000 at say 45 years in the
work force is only $4444.44 more a year!<<<<
And that doesn't include the four lost years of income, the college tuition,
or the repayment of student loans! <G>
A college education ain't all it's cracked up to be! <G>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pam sorooshian
On Oct 13, 2004, at 4:19 AM, Sheila wrote:
the house - spending time away from that kind of pressure would be
necessary for your own mental health, I'm sure!!
You might want to print out the "Unschooling Course of Study" <g> that
I have adapted from one written originally by Carol Narigon and added
material from our state standards and some other stuff. Your father
might be very calmed by it.
You can get it here:
<http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/iblog/unschooling/index.html>.
If you'd like it as a word file, email me offlist and I'll send it as
an attachment.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
> Now being in the center of outside family and not the freedom of myI can imagine, Sheila!! I hope you take plenty of time to get out of
> own house, in the midst of illness, the pressure can get high at
> times.
the house - spending time away from that kind of pressure would be
necessary for your own mental health, I'm sure!!
You might want to print out the "Unschooling Course of Study" <g> that
I have adapted from one written originally by Carol Narigon and added
material from our state standards and some other stuff. Your father
might be very calmed by it.
You can get it here:
<http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/iblog/unschooling/index.html>.
If you'd like it as a word file, email me offlist and I'll send it as
an attachment.
-pam
National Home Education Network
<www.NHEN.org>
Serving the entire homeschooling community since 1999
through information, networking and public relations.
Virginia Glasser
That is very funny. You have to wonder if the "genius" who came up with that
ad actually did the math themselves.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie530@... [mailto:Leslie530@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
In a message dated 10/13/2004 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
<<<<<He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded
than
people who don't.>>>>>
****************************************************************************
**
**************************
forgive me, because this is sort of unrelated, but my favorite commercial
these days is the one that says "a high school graduate will make $200,000
more
in his lifetime than a non-grad". Hmmm....$200,000 at say 45 years in the
work force is only $4444.44 more a year!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ad actually did the math themselves.
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: Leslie530@... [mailto:Leslie530@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 9:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
In a message dated 10/13/2004 9:14:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
<<<<<He
says statistically people who go to college get better paying jobs, get
married, live happier more productive lives and are more well rounded
than
people who don't.>>>>>
****************************************************************************
**
**************************
forgive me, because this is sort of unrelated, but my favorite commercial
these days is the one that says "a high school graduate will make $200,000
more
in his lifetime than a non-grad". Hmmm....$200,000 at say 45 years in the
work force is only $4444.44 more a year!
Leslie in SC
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Glasser
Michelle, that is so cool how you handled your mom while your son and you
were rolling pennies. :)
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: wieldingwords@... [mailto:wieldingwords@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 8:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Opinions wanted on Unschooling
that do get a lot of strife from our families. My mother absolutely detests
that I am homeschooling (I don't even mention the word unschooling around
her) We see each other often and things are fine as long as we don't talk
about homeschooling, religion, poilitics, gay rights, vegetarianism, me
working from home, or health care options. (So we talk about knitting, home
redecorating, and gardening - all safe subjects). Just yesterday she was at
my house and Keon (6yo) and I were rolling change. Mom asked Keon, "So what
did you do for school today." Keon answered (a tad indignantly), "I'm
*home*schooled now!" Mom said, "Yes; but what did you do for homeschool."
He just rolled his eyes. So I looked up at her and said, "Ssshhhh, we are
doing math." (and rolled my eyes). We then separated pennies into pre-1983
a nd post 1983 all while looking for older pennies (pre-1950 wheat pennies -
we actually found one). So I looked at her and said, "History." Then Keon
mentioned that we needed to shine the pennies (we are going on a Disney trip
soon and we collect pressed pennies) I asked him how we could shine them
and he said, "If we put them in catsup or spaghetti sauce they will get
clean." I again looked at Mom and said, "Science." She shut up (for now).
I know we will have many more conversations on how my children will be
behind their peers (NOT) or missing in social opportunities (oh like
resource day, gymnastics, scouting, church) and unprepared for life after
their teen years (sort of like their father who has a professional job and
is essentially "home-colleged.")
My mother has several friends who are educators or school administrators
and they all are very nice people (I know them as well). They keep telling
my mother about these wonderful programs taht are in their schools. How my
children could excel by being enrolled. How much they would benefit from
the daily social environment at their particular schools. My mother buys
into it. She doesn't understand why I refused to submit an application for
the arts magnate for my two younger children. She doesn't understand why I
think that magnate schools are wrong and that *all* schools should have the
same opportunities that the "chosen few" are given.
Of course I don't live with it on a daily basis. It does come up often
enough, though, to make it annoying. I would probably do about the same I
am doing now, but then I'm pretty surly when it comes to people pushing at
my decisions.
Michelle
Michelle
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
were rolling pennies. :)
Virginia Glasser
StampinUp! Demonstrator
http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
-----Original Message-----
From: wieldingwords@... [mailto:wieldingwords@...]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 8:58 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Opinions wanted on Unschooling
> Now being in the center of outside family and not the freedom of myI don't know about your particular situation, but there are those of us
> own house, in the midst of illness, the pressure can get high at
> times. It's hard because there are not a lot of unschooling families
> out there living with ill parents (or are there?)
that do get a lot of strife from our families. My mother absolutely detests
that I am homeschooling (I don't even mention the word unschooling around
her) We see each other often and things are fine as long as we don't talk
about homeschooling, religion, poilitics, gay rights, vegetarianism, me
working from home, or health care options. (So we talk about knitting, home
redecorating, and gardening - all safe subjects). Just yesterday she was at
my house and Keon (6yo) and I were rolling change. Mom asked Keon, "So what
did you do for school today." Keon answered (a tad indignantly), "I'm
*home*schooled now!" Mom said, "Yes; but what did you do for homeschool."
He just rolled his eyes. So I looked up at her and said, "Ssshhhh, we are
doing math." (and rolled my eyes). We then separated pennies into pre-1983
a nd post 1983 all while looking for older pennies (pre-1950 wheat pennies -
we actually found one). So I looked at her and said, "History." Then Keon
mentioned that we needed to shine the pennies (we are going on a Disney trip
soon and we collect pressed pennies) I asked him how we could shine them
and he said, "If we put them in catsup or spaghetti sauce they will get
clean." I again looked at Mom and said, "Science." She shut up (for now).
I know we will have many more conversations on how my children will be
behind their peers (NOT) or missing in social opportunities (oh like
resource day, gymnastics, scouting, church) and unprepared for life after
their teen years (sort of like their father who has a professional job and
is essentially "home-colleged.")
My mother has several friends who are educators or school administrators
and they all are very nice people (I know them as well). They keep telling
my mother about these wonderful programs taht are in their schools. How my
children could excel by being enrolled. How much they would benefit from
the daily social environment at their particular schools. My mother buys
into it. She doesn't understand why I refused to submit an application for
the arts magnate for my two younger children. She doesn't understand why I
think that magnate schools are wrong and that *all* schools should have the
same opportunities that the "chosen few" are given.
Of course I don't live with it on a daily basis. It does come up often
enough, though, to make it annoying. I would probably do about the same I
am doing now, but then I'm pretty surly when it comes to people pushing at
my decisions.
Michelle
Michelle
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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[email protected]
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<Another thing to consider is that most people who go to college don't
finish. >>>
Like that well known layabout Bill Gates ;)
When I first went to college after finishing high school, it was to study
science under pressure to do something academically worthy. I lasted one
unpleasant year. When I returned to college a number of years later to study
what I really was passionate about, Theater Design, I could have brought my
credits across and basically skipped the first year. Then I would have
missed out on a bunch of fun, and had much worse grades incidentally. The
feeling and experience was so different on my return to college.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004
finish. >>>
Like that well known layabout Bill Gates ;)
When I first went to college after finishing high school, it was to study
science under pressure to do something academically worthy. I lasted one
unpleasant year. When I returned to college a number of years later to study
what I really was passionate about, Theater Design, I could have brought my
credits across and basically skipped the first year. Then I would have
missed out on a bunch of fun, and had much worse grades incidentally. The
feeling and experience was so different on my return to college.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004
Rachel and Carson Milgroom
> MAYBE he can give his daughter a joyful life----and the shortestWhen we were really starting to get the idea of an unschooling lifestyle -
> route to a joyful adulthood is a joyful childhood---so start now.
>
> ~Kelly
>
trusting our kids and ourselves and letting go of the "safety" rules and
shoulds - I had this sort of epiphany. It went something like "What if my
kids grow up and always remember they had a very happy childhood?" And then
after some time I realized that letting go of all those rules meant that in
fact I was entitled to a very happy parenthood as well.
Still learning to just let myself relax and enjoy my terrific life,
Rachel
_________________________
My baby is a DiaperFreeBaby!!!
www.DiaperFreeBaby.org
dana tierney
well
I've been told I am not "really" an unschooler, but here is some input
for what it is worth. Please note that I am not interested in
suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
we do works for us.
It is not clear to me who is ill at your house, but I have found that
the flexibility of unschooling accomodates itself admirably to
doctor's appointments, procedures, and hospital stays.
Certain members of the unschooling community seem to feel that college
is "bad" and this gives me pause; it may not be necessary or ideal for
every child but you know what? I loved college, personally. So I think
it is important to allow the child to chose, rather than specifically
discouraging academic or non-academic pursuits.
It troubles me somewhat when I see people proudly proclaiming
themselves to be radical unschoolers in posts full of misspellings and
sentence fragments. Fortunately these are a minority of unschooling
parents, and I tell myself that just as childen survive bab schools
their children will survive their unschooling parents.
I personally do think that childen, when left to themselves, often
choose pursuits that would confound the skeptics. I personally do feel
the need to intervene every so often and assign a specific book that I
know they can read though it might be a bit hard to start -- Kim by
Rudyard Kipling was the last one.
Our particular sticking point is math, where they are falling somewhat
behind. I do think an appreciation of algebra and calculus is a good
thing, and it is one of those things like brushing your teeth where
the benefit is not immediately apparent. Actually, if anyone has a
suggestion on *that* (besides don't worry about it cause they wll when
they are ready) then I might like to hear it.
Perhaps I should describe myself as a mixed or eclectic unschooler,
but I have been around the mulberry bush with the politically correct
on the various lists that I am not much interested in the labels
anymore. Some people take unschooling to the point that they think you
should allow the child to sleep as late as he/she likes and act as
he/she pleases. I don't go there. I may be a laissez-faire parent but
I feel it is my role to be a parent and be authoritative when the
situation requires it.
To answer your husband's concern about college; my own difficulties
along this line are that they tell me that my 14yo is too young and
they won't even consider him until he's 16. Otherwise I'd say he's as
ready as your average community college freshman, math problems and
all.
Hope this frank appraisal of pros and cons as I see them helps you a little.
Dana
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:14:32 -0500, Virginia Glasser
<virginia@...> wrote:
I've been told I am not "really" an unschooler, but here is some input
for what it is worth. Please note that I am not interested in
suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
we do works for us.
It is not clear to me who is ill at your house, but I have found that
the flexibility of unschooling accomodates itself admirably to
doctor's appointments, procedures, and hospital stays.
Certain members of the unschooling community seem to feel that college
is "bad" and this gives me pause; it may not be necessary or ideal for
every child but you know what? I loved college, personally. So I think
it is important to allow the child to chose, rather than specifically
discouraging academic or non-academic pursuits.
It troubles me somewhat when I see people proudly proclaiming
themselves to be radical unschoolers in posts full of misspellings and
sentence fragments. Fortunately these are a minority of unschooling
parents, and I tell myself that just as childen survive bab schools
their children will survive their unschooling parents.
I personally do think that childen, when left to themselves, often
choose pursuits that would confound the skeptics. I personally do feel
the need to intervene every so often and assign a specific book that I
know they can read though it might be a bit hard to start -- Kim by
Rudyard Kipling was the last one.
Our particular sticking point is math, where they are falling somewhat
behind. I do think an appreciation of algebra and calculus is a good
thing, and it is one of those things like brushing your teeth where
the benefit is not immediately apparent. Actually, if anyone has a
suggestion on *that* (besides don't worry about it cause they wll when
they are ready) then I might like to hear it.
Perhaps I should describe myself as a mixed or eclectic unschooler,
but I have been around the mulberry bush with the politically correct
on the various lists that I am not much interested in the labels
anymore. Some people take unschooling to the point that they think you
should allow the child to sleep as late as he/she likes and act as
he/she pleases. I don't go there. I may be a laissez-faire parent but
I feel it is my role to be a parent and be authoritative when the
situation requires it.
To answer your husband's concern about college; my own difficulties
along this line are that they tell me that my 14yo is too young and
they won't even consider him until he's 16. Otherwise I'd say he's as
ready as your average community college freshman, math problems and
all.
Hope this frank appraisal of pros and cons as I see them helps you a little.
Dana
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:14:32 -0500, Virginia Glasser
<virginia@...> wrote:
>
> I'm for unschooling, my husband is not. I would like to gather as many
> objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach to
> homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot and
> failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very successful,
> or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from folks
> who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
> unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the input
> I can get. Thanks!
>
> Virginia Glasser
> StampinUp! Demonstrator
> http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
> I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
> Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/13/2004 8:07:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
dana.tierney@... writes:
well
I've been told I am not "really" an unschooler, but here is some input
for what it is worth. Please note that I am not interested in
suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
we do works for us.<<<<
And since Virginia asked for different people's experiences and opinions on
unschooling, I'll let it slide for the most part. But as a radical unschooler,
I *will* point out that trust is the foundation of unschooling. So not
trusting that a child will read and do math isn't really unschooling. Assigning
books and math problems is not showing trust in the philosophy that children
*will* do these things when they're ready. Assuming that your children are
falling behind in any "subject" isn't showing respect of where that child is in
his life's journey.
But Dana *did* say she wasn't an unschooler, so....
every child but you know what? I loved college, personally. So I think
it is important to allow the child to chose, rather than specifically
discouraging academic or non-academic pursuits.<<<<
I think *any* coerced education is bad. And coersion can come in the form of
societal expectations. Going to college just because it's what you're
supposed to do isn't a goal of unschooling.
I loved college too. Had a blast. And I didn't dislike grammar school,
middle school, or high school either. Of course, I had no other options. But I had
good teachers (overall). I learned a lot. And I had fun. I look back now and
think of so much more I *could* have done withOUT school, and it's
staggering. Hindsight being what it is and all.
I try to balance it out. Most folks think that college is a necessary step
for success. It's important to understand (and not just as unschoolers;
everyone should understand this!) that college is not the be-all-end-all. It's not a
guarantee of a happy, successful, joyful life. It's NOT. It *can* be a great
place to spend a few years. It can be a great place to meet interesting
people. It can be a great place to discover something new. It can be a great
place to learn about life semi-on-your-own But it's not the only place or the
only way.
sentence fragments. Fortunately these are a minority of unschooling
parents, and I tell myself that just as childen survive bab schools
their children will survive their unschooling parents.<<<<
Who is this? On this board? On U-D? On A-L? I see much more of that with the
crazed curriculum users. They're *teaching* improper grammar because they
don't know better. The *most* articulate homeschoolers *I* see are the
unschoolers. Hands down.
the need to intervene every so often and assign a specific book that I
know they can read though it might be a bit hard to start -- Kim by
Rudyard Kipling was the last one.<<<<
I think the key phrase here is "Children, when left to themselves, CHOOSE
pursuits!"
It's amazing, but children WILL choose to pursue different activities and
passions when they get to choose.
thing,<<<<
Unschoolers appreciate algebra and calculus; we just don't try to cram it
down our children's throats. We see it in our everyday lives and help point it
out or explain it. We also never feel our children are behind themselves.
suggestion on *that* (besides don't worry about it cause they wll when
they are ready) then I might like to hear it.<<<<<
And teeth brushing is NOT an unschooling issue. (It can be a radical
unschooling issue.) But a parent who is willing to force-feed algebra or Kipling
should have no problem forcing a toothbrush in a child's mouth.
on the various lists that I am not much interested in the labels
anymore.<<<<<
Eclectic HOMEschooler. UNschooling is a different critter altogether.
he/she pleases. <<<<<
Radical unschoolers. That would be the listowners and the list moderators,
for sure. <g>
My boys sleep until they are finished sleeping. Why would I purposefully
deprive them of sleep by waking them before they are well-rested?
Act as they please? I just spent an hour (between starting and finishing
this post) listening to my eight year old's crying over the fact that there are
murderers in the world. And mean people. And guns. He behaves the absolute
best that he can at all times. His best may not be good enough for some people,
but he's kind and considerate and loving and wants to please. And he'll
gather more and more control over himself as he gets older---as we all do. He acts
as he pleases.
I think it's important on an unschooling list to give out unschooling
advice, but this post was in reference to a request for anti-unschooling
opinions----which is what she got. Lying on a float in the kiddie pool isn't swimming.
<g> I won't let non-unschooling advice/opinions go unanswered on my list.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dana.tierney@... writes:
well
I've been told I am not "really" an unschooler, but here is some input
for what it is worth. Please note that I am not interested in
suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
we do works for us.<<<<
And since Virginia asked for different people's experiences and opinions on
unschooling, I'll let it slide for the most part. But as a radical unschooler,
I *will* point out that trust is the foundation of unschooling. So not
trusting that a child will read and do math isn't really unschooling. Assigning
books and math problems is not showing trust in the philosophy that children
*will* do these things when they're ready. Assuming that your children are
falling behind in any "subject" isn't showing respect of where that child is in
his life's journey.
But Dana *did* say she wasn't an unschooler, so....
>>>>Certain members of the unschooling community seem to feel that collegeis "bad" and this gives me pause; it may not be necessary or ideal for
every child but you know what? I loved college, personally. So I think
it is important to allow the child to chose, rather than specifically
discouraging academic or non-academic pursuits.<<<<
I think *any* coerced education is bad. And coersion can come in the form of
societal expectations. Going to college just because it's what you're
supposed to do isn't a goal of unschooling.
I loved college too. Had a blast. And I didn't dislike grammar school,
middle school, or high school either. Of course, I had no other options. But I had
good teachers (overall). I learned a lot. And I had fun. I look back now and
think of so much more I *could* have done withOUT school, and it's
staggering. Hindsight being what it is and all.
I try to balance it out. Most folks think that college is a necessary step
for success. It's important to understand (and not just as unschoolers;
everyone should understand this!) that college is not the be-all-end-all. It's not a
guarantee of a happy, successful, joyful life. It's NOT. It *can* be a great
place to spend a few years. It can be a great place to meet interesting
people. It can be a great place to discover something new. It can be a great
place to learn about life semi-on-your-own But it's not the only place or the
only way.
>>>>It troubles me somewhat when I see people proudly proclaimingthemselves to be radical unschoolers in posts full of misspellings and
sentence fragments. Fortunately these are a minority of unschooling
parents, and I tell myself that just as childen survive bab schools
their children will survive their unschooling parents.<<<<
Who is this? On this board? On U-D? On A-L? I see much more of that with the
crazed curriculum users. They're *teaching* improper grammar because they
don't know better. The *most* articulate homeschoolers *I* see are the
unschoolers. Hands down.
>>>>>I personally do think that childen, when left to themselves, oftenchoose pursuits that would confound the skeptics. I personally do feel
the need to intervene every so often and assign a specific book that I
know they can read though it might be a bit hard to start -- Kim by
Rudyard Kipling was the last one.<<<<
I think the key phrase here is "Children, when left to themselves, CHOOSE
pursuits!"
It's amazing, but children WILL choose to pursue different activities and
passions when they get to choose.
>>>>Our particular sticking point is math, where they are falling somewhatbehind. I do think an appreciation of algebra and calculus is a good
thing,<<<<
Unschoolers appreciate algebra and calculus; we just don't try to cram it
down our children's throats. We see it in our everyday lives and help point it
out or explain it. We also never feel our children are behind themselves.
>>>>and it is one of those things like brushing your teeth wherethe benefit is not immediately apparent. Actually, if anyone has a
suggestion on *that* (besides don't worry about it cause they wll when
they are ready) then I might like to hear it.<<<<<
And teeth brushing is NOT an unschooling issue. (It can be a radical
unschooling issue.) But a parent who is willing to force-feed algebra or Kipling
should have no problem forcing a toothbrush in a child's mouth.
>>>>>Perhaps I should describe myself as a mixed or eclectic unschooler,but I have been around the mulberry bush with the politically correct
on the various lists that I am not much interested in the labels
anymore.<<<<<
Eclectic HOMEschooler. UNschooling is a different critter altogether.
>>>>Some people take unschooling to the point that they think youshould allow the child to sleep as late as he/she likes and act as
he/she pleases. <<<<<
Radical unschoolers. That would be the listowners and the list moderators,
for sure. <g>
My boys sleep until they are finished sleeping. Why would I purposefully
deprive them of sleep by waking them before they are well-rested?
Act as they please? I just spent an hour (between starting and finishing
this post) listening to my eight year old's crying over the fact that there are
murderers in the world. And mean people. And guns. He behaves the absolute
best that he can at all times. His best may not be good enough for some people,
but he's kind and considerate and loving and wants to please. And he'll
gather more and more control over himself as he gets older---as we all do. He acts
as he pleases.
I think it's important on an unschooling list to give out unschooling
advice, but this post was in reference to a request for anti-unschooling
opinions----which is what she got. Lying on a float in the kiddie pool isn't swimming.
<g> I won't let non-unschooling advice/opinions go unanswered on my list.
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jecaam28
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@a... wrote:
the baggage and jump in. I really like the idea but waver from family
pressure. I was just about to decide to give up and homeschool after
talking to a school teacher while getting my car fixed, talking to my
aunt who had talked to her friend who was a shoolteacher who
mentioned a homeschooled child who had returned to school and was
*behind* and she had to *catch* him up (whew!...sorry), and trying to
give answers to "how's the homeschooling going" from other friends
and family members, and trying to integrate my husbands comfort
level, then I read this thread. I just feel like we are doing nothing
and my kids will be so far behind, and what if this doesn't work out
and we send them back to school, and what if..., and what if... ugh!
I have to defend SO many of my positions to people because they
aren't the *norm*. Do I really want to add another one? And one on
such a sensitive subject for my family? College was not an option in
my family it was just the next step. I come from a family of school
teachers from way back. I can see the point you make about doing what
you are passionate about. I am 33 and have just now found mine. I
think I knew when I was 20, I just didn't know what to do with it.
Would I if I had been unschooled? Would I have known sooner? I don't
know. I'm so very confused and frustrated and feel like I'm doing no
good by my children right now and maybe I should have just kept them
in school. But if I can get past this, I can see how this could be
SO good! How do you let go of the baggage?
Jennifer
> I like talking with folks who *want* to get it---who are looking tomake
> that paradigm shift----who want to let go of the side and jump in.Well, I *want* to get it. but just can't seem to. I can't let go of
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
the baggage and jump in. I really like the idea but waver from family
pressure. I was just about to decide to give up and homeschool after
talking to a school teacher while getting my car fixed, talking to my
aunt who had talked to her friend who was a shoolteacher who
mentioned a homeschooled child who had returned to school and was
*behind* and she had to *catch* him up (whew!...sorry), and trying to
give answers to "how's the homeschooling going" from other friends
and family members, and trying to integrate my husbands comfort
level, then I read this thread. I just feel like we are doing nothing
and my kids will be so far behind, and what if this doesn't work out
and we send them back to school, and what if..., and what if... ugh!
I have to defend SO many of my positions to people because they
aren't the *norm*. Do I really want to add another one? And one on
such a sensitive subject for my family? College was not an option in
my family it was just the next step. I come from a family of school
teachers from way back. I can see the point you make about doing what
you are passionate about. I am 33 and have just now found mine. I
think I knew when I was 20, I just didn't know what to do with it.
Would I if I had been unschooled? Would I have known sooner? I don't
know. I'm so very confused and frustrated and feel like I'm doing no
good by my children right now and maybe I should have just kept them
in school. But if I can get past this, I can see how this could be
SO good! How do you let go of the baggage?
Jennifer
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<< I was just about to decide to give up and homeschool after
talking to a school teacher while getting my car fixed, talking to my
aunt who had talked to her friend who was a shoolteacher who
mentioned a homeschooled child who had returned to school and was
*behind* and she had to *catch* him up (whew!...sorry), and trying to
give answers to "how's the homeschooling going" from other friends
and family members, and trying to integrate my husbands comfort
level, then I read this thread.>>>
This is why I try so hard not to do school or HOME school conversations. I
have an utterly committed husband and we are both absolutely Rad.
Unschoolers, but even I get distressed on the rare occasions that I am
involved in even listening to other people on the subject of how they "have
to" force their child to do X.
Just last Tuesday a woman was saying that she has a minimum number of
sentences that she makes her 8 year old write (copy out in a penmanship
book) every day. She considers 3 sentences to be that number - but the poor
little girl gets to choose what those sentences are. I couldn't get away. I
have actually been losing sleep and crying at home because I wasn't able to
say anything to convince her that fighting her dd as she is, is just so
wrong - partly because all the smart eloquent sentences that I would have
liked to orate simply didn't arrive in my brain - still haven't.
All I know is that this mother who is so loving and trusting of her infant,
seems not to be able to extend that to her older dd's. She is considering
the purpose of handwriting to be demonstrating a developmental milestone
that her daughter is failing to meet - and so basically is telling her dd
that she is a failure on a daily basis.
I consider the purpose of writing to be to make a record of my thoughts and
sometimes to convey those thoughts to others. The thoughts can be as basic
as a shopping list. If I couldn't hold a pen as some people can't maybe I
could still type or use a recording device of some sort, but I would still
have ideas. I wanted to ask that other mother if she considers the ideas of
Stephen Hawking to be valueless because he is unable to write them out for
himself.
This same mother "tried Unschooling" but since her daughter took that as an
opportunity to "do nothing" she forgot how to form the letters she had
"learnt" previously. Another person who thought erroneously that Unschooling
meant the parent sits back and waits for their child to spontaneously create
a six subject workday complete with book reports and pages of math problems.
***Sigh***
This came on top of my very foolishly getting into a "forcing history
lessons and quizzing is not an Unschooling approach and not what John Holt
recommended" conversation on my local list. The response has been a lot of
"let's all get along" and people quoting definitions of Unschooling from
sources hostile to Unschooling. A bit like sending someone interested in
learning about Wicca to Jerry Falwell for a definition.
The point is I have become emotionally in miserable turmoil because I got
involved in not one but two "how to school" conversations with people who
are not interested in Unschooling. I should have known better. I *do* know
better.
<<<<<I just feel like we are doing nothing
and my kids will be so far behind, and what if this doesn't work out
and we send them back to school, and what if..., and what if... ugh!
I have to defend SO many of my positions to people because they
aren't the *norm*. Do I really want to add another one? And one on
such a sensitive subject for my family? College was not an option in
my family it was just the next step. I come from a family of school
teachers from way back. >>>>
Limit (or eliminate for now) the conversations. They are making you crazy.
Let your children be the proof of the pudding *in due course* - after all
you can't rush a masterpiece and if you keep opening the oven door you spoil
the baking (mixed yet I think appropriate metaphors).
We can live our lives in fear of catastrophe, and keep looking to an
imagined disastrous future. Or we can acknowledge that even with the best of
intentions our children *might* end up in PS because of some external force,
but in the mean time we can make the present as wonderful as possible. If we
live in fear we never leave the house and never cross the road. If we live
in the joyful present we need have no regrets should some horrible
unforeseen event cloud the future.
It sounds macabre, but I sometimes think what if Jayn came down with some
disease, or was hurt or killed in an auto accident (the largest cause of
death and injury for people between the ages of 1 and 18 - more than all
others combined according to govt. stats). Would I be wishing I had spent
more time going over the basics of addition and drilling her on the state
capitals? Or would I be wishing we could cuddle again and I could listen to
her singing a song of her own devising as she plays with several of her
little princess castles, as she is at this moment across the room?
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004
talking to a school teacher while getting my car fixed, talking to my
aunt who had talked to her friend who was a shoolteacher who
mentioned a homeschooled child who had returned to school and was
*behind* and she had to *catch* him up (whew!...sorry), and trying to
give answers to "how's the homeschooling going" from other friends
and family members, and trying to integrate my husbands comfort
level, then I read this thread.>>>
This is why I try so hard not to do school or HOME school conversations. I
have an utterly committed husband and we are both absolutely Rad.
Unschoolers, but even I get distressed on the rare occasions that I am
involved in even listening to other people on the subject of how they "have
to" force their child to do X.
Just last Tuesday a woman was saying that she has a minimum number of
sentences that she makes her 8 year old write (copy out in a penmanship
book) every day. She considers 3 sentences to be that number - but the poor
little girl gets to choose what those sentences are. I couldn't get away. I
have actually been losing sleep and crying at home because I wasn't able to
say anything to convince her that fighting her dd as she is, is just so
wrong - partly because all the smart eloquent sentences that I would have
liked to orate simply didn't arrive in my brain - still haven't.
All I know is that this mother who is so loving and trusting of her infant,
seems not to be able to extend that to her older dd's. She is considering
the purpose of handwriting to be demonstrating a developmental milestone
that her daughter is failing to meet - and so basically is telling her dd
that she is a failure on a daily basis.
I consider the purpose of writing to be to make a record of my thoughts and
sometimes to convey those thoughts to others. The thoughts can be as basic
as a shopping list. If I couldn't hold a pen as some people can't maybe I
could still type or use a recording device of some sort, but I would still
have ideas. I wanted to ask that other mother if she considers the ideas of
Stephen Hawking to be valueless because he is unable to write them out for
himself.
This same mother "tried Unschooling" but since her daughter took that as an
opportunity to "do nothing" she forgot how to form the letters she had
"learnt" previously. Another person who thought erroneously that Unschooling
meant the parent sits back and waits for their child to spontaneously create
a six subject workday complete with book reports and pages of math problems.
***Sigh***
This came on top of my very foolishly getting into a "forcing history
lessons and quizzing is not an Unschooling approach and not what John Holt
recommended" conversation on my local list. The response has been a lot of
"let's all get along" and people quoting definitions of Unschooling from
sources hostile to Unschooling. A bit like sending someone interested in
learning about Wicca to Jerry Falwell for a definition.
The point is I have become emotionally in miserable turmoil because I got
involved in not one but two "how to school" conversations with people who
are not interested in Unschooling. I should have known better. I *do* know
better.
<<<<<I just feel like we are doing nothing
and my kids will be so far behind, and what if this doesn't work out
and we send them back to school, and what if..., and what if... ugh!
I have to defend SO many of my positions to people because they
aren't the *norm*. Do I really want to add another one? And one on
such a sensitive subject for my family? College was not an option in
my family it was just the next step. I come from a family of school
teachers from way back. >>>>
Limit (or eliminate for now) the conversations. They are making you crazy.
Let your children be the proof of the pudding *in due course* - after all
you can't rush a masterpiece and if you keep opening the oven door you spoil
the baking (mixed yet I think appropriate metaphors).
We can live our lives in fear of catastrophe, and keep looking to an
imagined disastrous future. Or we can acknowledge that even with the best of
intentions our children *might* end up in PS because of some external force,
but in the mean time we can make the present as wonderful as possible. If we
live in fear we never leave the house and never cross the road. If we live
in the joyful present we need have no regrets should some horrible
unforeseen event cloud the future.
It sounds macabre, but I sometimes think what if Jayn came down with some
disease, or was hurt or killed in an auto accident (the largest cause of
death and injury for people between the ages of 1 and 18 - more than all
others combined according to govt. stats). Would I be wishing I had spent
more time going over the basics of addition and drilling her on the state
capitals? Or would I be wishing we could cuddle again and I could listen to
her singing a song of her own devising as she plays with several of her
little princess castles, as she is at this moment across the room?
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004
Robyn Coburn
<<<<It troubles me somewhat when I see people proudly proclaiming
themselves to be radical unschoolers in posts full of misspellings and
sentence fragments. Fortunately these are a minority of unschooling
parents, and I tell myself that just as childen survive bab schools
their children will survive their unschooling parents.>>>>>
What sort of schools did you say? "bab" schools? "Surviving their parents" -
what an offensive concept to post here.
Everyone makes typos. I usually only mention them when the meaning really is
unclear, if I am trying to understand. Computerized spell checkers don't
work when the word is simply another real word - like "lose" and "loose".
Most of us are snatching at our emails between the needs of our children for
attention, or hurrying late at night to get them done. Many of us write in a
colloquial style, reminiscent of our verbal communication. Some of us are
even people for whom English is a second language, or like me come from an
English speaking country that yet has different spellings. And yes, some of
us are lousy spellers. BTW the grammar checker on my computer gave me an
"alert" - green underlining - for some of the prior paragraph.
<<<I personally do think that childen, when left to themselves, often
choose pursuits that would confound the skeptics. I personally do feel
the need to intervene every so often and assign a specific book that I
know they can read though it might be a bit hard to start -- Kim by
Rudyard Kipling was the last one.>>>
No one is going to come to your house and force you to fully Unschool.
However I will never assign a book in the way you mention, because I hope
that Jayn will enjoy reading, and not find me dividing books into easy
versus "a bit hard to start". My opinion on that issue may differ from hers.
If she does not enjoy reading despite choosing the material for herself, all
the assigning in the world would not make it more pleasurable for her, or
make the books themselves more memorable. Jayn's needs for self
determination outweigh any residual need to control that I may have.
<<<Our particular sticking point is math, where they are falling somewhat
behind. I do think an appreciation of algebra and calculus is a good
thing, and it is one of those things like brushing your teeth where
the benefit is not immediately apparent. Actually, if anyone has a
suggestion on *that* (besides don't worry about it cause they wll when
they are ready) then I might like to hear it.>>>
Trying to tell people what to reply or not reply to you is a bit of a "red
rag to a bull". It is likely to raise the devilish desire to post exactly
what you are not interested in hearing in some of us.
Nor are you the only person on the list who may be struggling with the same
issues at any time, so suggestions are really to anyone who can make use of
them. I find that just when I am about to post a question, someone else will
post about the same concern.
So guess what - don't worry about it, they will do it when they are ready -
unless the adults in their life make "it" (any "it") into a power struggle
and a pain - then they will fight doing it even if they would have been
ready.
<<<Perhaps I should describe myself as a mixed or eclectic unschooler,
but I have been around the mulberry bush with the politically correct
on the various lists that I am not much interested in the labels
anymore. >>>
One of the purposes of this list is to clarify the definition of Unschooling
and describe how it works in people's lives. Labels are important for the
purposes of the list, even if in practical life you choose to eschew them -
except I notice when you refer to your kids as "falling somewhat behind".
<<<Some people take unschooling to the point that they think you
should allow the child to sleep as late as he/she likes and act as
he/she pleases. I don't go there. >>>>
This list "goes there" cyclically. Check the archives.
<<<<<I may be a laissez-faire parent but
I feel it is my role to be a parent and be authoritative when the
situation requires it.>>>>
Let's hear about the situations. It could generate some great thought
provoking discussion.
<<<<To answer your husband's concern about college; my own difficulties
along this line are that they tell me that my 14yo is too young and
they won't even consider him until he's 16. Otherwise I'd say he's as
ready as your average community college freshman, math problems and
all.>>>
Can he audit some classes to see if they are fun? At the least it might give
him a really good idea of which ones he would want to enroll in when the
time comes.
<<<<Hope this frank appraisal of pros and cons as I see them helps you a
little.>>>>
The only con I got from this is that some parents aren't good spellers. The
rest is you not actually fully committing to Unschooling, as you say in your
first paragraph.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004
themselves to be radical unschoolers in posts full of misspellings and
sentence fragments. Fortunately these are a minority of unschooling
parents, and I tell myself that just as childen survive bab schools
their children will survive their unschooling parents.>>>>>
What sort of schools did you say? "bab" schools? "Surviving their parents" -
what an offensive concept to post here.
Everyone makes typos. I usually only mention them when the meaning really is
unclear, if I am trying to understand. Computerized spell checkers don't
work when the word is simply another real word - like "lose" and "loose".
Most of us are snatching at our emails between the needs of our children for
attention, or hurrying late at night to get them done. Many of us write in a
colloquial style, reminiscent of our verbal communication. Some of us are
even people for whom English is a second language, or like me come from an
English speaking country that yet has different spellings. And yes, some of
us are lousy spellers. BTW the grammar checker on my computer gave me an
"alert" - green underlining - for some of the prior paragraph.
<<<I personally do think that childen, when left to themselves, often
choose pursuits that would confound the skeptics. I personally do feel
the need to intervene every so often and assign a specific book that I
know they can read though it might be a bit hard to start -- Kim by
Rudyard Kipling was the last one.>>>
No one is going to come to your house and force you to fully Unschool.
However I will never assign a book in the way you mention, because I hope
that Jayn will enjoy reading, and not find me dividing books into easy
versus "a bit hard to start". My opinion on that issue may differ from hers.
If she does not enjoy reading despite choosing the material for herself, all
the assigning in the world would not make it more pleasurable for her, or
make the books themselves more memorable. Jayn's needs for self
determination outweigh any residual need to control that I may have.
<<<Our particular sticking point is math, where they are falling somewhat
behind. I do think an appreciation of algebra and calculus is a good
thing, and it is one of those things like brushing your teeth where
the benefit is not immediately apparent. Actually, if anyone has a
suggestion on *that* (besides don't worry about it cause they wll when
they are ready) then I might like to hear it.>>>
Trying to tell people what to reply or not reply to you is a bit of a "red
rag to a bull". It is likely to raise the devilish desire to post exactly
what you are not interested in hearing in some of us.
Nor are you the only person on the list who may be struggling with the same
issues at any time, so suggestions are really to anyone who can make use of
them. I find that just when I am about to post a question, someone else will
post about the same concern.
So guess what - don't worry about it, they will do it when they are ready -
unless the adults in their life make "it" (any "it") into a power struggle
and a pain - then they will fight doing it even if they would have been
ready.
<<<Perhaps I should describe myself as a mixed or eclectic unschooler,
but I have been around the mulberry bush with the politically correct
on the various lists that I am not much interested in the labels
anymore. >>>
One of the purposes of this list is to clarify the definition of Unschooling
and describe how it works in people's lives. Labels are important for the
purposes of the list, even if in practical life you choose to eschew them -
except I notice when you refer to your kids as "falling somewhat behind".
<<<Some people take unschooling to the point that they think you
should allow the child to sleep as late as he/she likes and act as
he/she pleases. I don't go there. >>>>
This list "goes there" cyclically. Check the archives.
<<<<<I may be a laissez-faire parent but
I feel it is my role to be a parent and be authoritative when the
situation requires it.>>>>
Let's hear about the situations. It could generate some great thought
provoking discussion.
<<<<To answer your husband's concern about college; my own difficulties
along this line are that they tell me that my 14yo is too young and
they won't even consider him until he's 16. Otherwise I'd say he's as
ready as your average community college freshman, math problems and
all.>>>
Can he audit some classes to see if they are fun? At the least it might give
him a really good idea of which ones he would want to enroll in when the
time comes.
<<<<Hope this frank appraisal of pros and cons as I see them helps you a
little.>>>>
The only con I got from this is that some parents aren't good spellers. The
rest is you not actually fully committing to Unschooling, as you say in your
first paragraph.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.773 / Virus Database: 520 - Release Date: 10/5/2004
Sheila
> You might want to print out the "Unschooling Course of Study" <g>that
> I have adapted from one written originally by Carol Narigon andadded
> material from our state standards and some other stuff. Your fatheras
> might be very calmed by it.
>
> You can get it here:
> <http://homepage.mac.com/pamsoroosh/iblog/unschooling/index.html>.
>
> If you'd like it as a word file, email me offlist and I'll send it
> an attachment.Thank you Pam for that link. I read it and it actually helped me as
>
I start this adventure into unschooling. We do that entire course of
study! (LOL) If there are any other links or books you can suggest,
please feel free to suggest them. I'm just about to begin "Teach
Your Own" by John Holt.
Thanks again.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/14/2004 1:01:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jecaam28@... writes:
Well, I *want* to get it. but just can't seem to. I can't let go of
the baggage and jump in. I really like the idea but waver from family
pressure. I was just about to decide to give up and homeschool after
talking to a school teacher while getting my car fixed, talking to my
aunt who had talked to her friend who was a shoolteacher who
mentioned a homeschooled child who had returned to school and was
*behind* and she had to *catch* him up (whew!...sorry), and trying to
give answers to "how's the homeschooling going" from other friends
and family members, and trying to integrate my husbands comfort
level, then I read this thread. I just feel like we are doing nothing
and my kids will be so far behind, and what if this doesn't work out
and we send them back to school, and what if..., and what if... ugh!
I have to defend SO many of my positions to people because they
aren't the *norm*. Do I really want to add another one? And one on
such a sensitive subject for _my family_ (mip://05d4a9a0/my%20family) ?
College was not an option in
my family it was just the next step. I come from a family of school
teachers from way back. I can see the point you make about doing what
you are passionate about. I am 33 and have just now found mine. I
think I knew when I was 20, I just didn't know what to do with it.
Would I if I had been unschooled? Would I have known sooner? I don't
know. I'm so very confused and frustrated and feel like I'm doing no
good by my children right now and maybe I should have just kept them
in school. But if I can get past this, I can see how this could be
SO good! How do you let go of the baggage? <<<<<
Sorry you're struggling so much, Jennifer!
What's one more? <g>
It takes a pretty thick skin to get through the first year or so of
unschooling.
You will hear a lot of negative comments from well-meaning family members,
friends, and even strangers-----and they *are* well-meaning! They really think
you are making a grave mistake and are trying to save you a ton of regret and
pain. But what do *you* think----in your heart? Do you think that 12 to 14
years of school will make a person worthy? That good grades make you more
worthy? That learning can only happen when it's taught? In a classroom? From
8:30-3:00? For 180 days a year?
I thought a lot of that. Brainwashing at its finest! <g> Private schools,
good grades, college.
I spent my junior year of college in Vienna, Austria. I got to see a
different world. It changed my views on a lot of things----especially what is
important to learn/know---for *me* anyway. And I STILL put my precious baby in
school at four years old! The same private school I went to!
I spent all day sometimes at the school helping out in the classroom or in
the parent resource room. Room mom. Volunteer. Chaperone. Field trip planner.
Parents' Board. I did it all. I was incredibly involved with the school, with
the classroom, and with Cameron's learning/grades/homework.
But I watched this child who was filled with wonder for everything, who
looked for reasons to ask questions and see answers, who threw himself into
projects and imaginative play, who LOVED to LEARN----I watched this sweet boy
slowly stop caring and stop learning and -----he had what I read in Stephen
King's book _It_. Those dead lights. Staring eyes with no life in them? That's
what he'd become. A twelve year old with dead lights.
Cameron mentioned to me one night (it was the eve of his birthday night, in
fact) that he would like to be homeschooled. I laughed and said something not
very nice. Then I started thinking about it. I went to the library and
checked out every book on homeschooling. I found John Holt among them and was
changed overnight. (Well, I knew what I wanted; I just didn't know how to get
there! <g>)
My mother and my in-laws thought I'd lost my mind. How could a ROOM MOM turn
against schools? <g> Oddly, their biggest concerns seemed to be
social----and I don't mean that in the same way most people do. The grandmothers were
most worried about football and the prom! LOL
My father put my mother in her place by saying that all the homeschooling
mothers he'd met had been very smart and caring. The kids seemed better off
with homeschooling than with school. My dad's an adolescent psychiatrist! <G>
Cameron spent the first year getting algebra and history questions from the
aunts and uncles (a nurse, a doctor, and a teacher! ugh!). I put a stop to
that by asking *them* a few math and history questions (like which high school
did Ben Franklin graduate? how many unschoolers did it take to sign a
Declaration of Independence? <g>). But I always felt on the defensive--- and I didn't
like it. I decided to change tactics: I asked them----no, I *told* them---to
lay off the boys. I don't drill their children. Don't drill mine!
That worked as far as the boys were concerned
But then *their* kids started noticing how much freedom our children had.
That made for some *very* uncomfortable situations. "Why can't...? How come...?
But Cameron can...! Why not?"
It's kind of like the stages of grief/ You know----denial, anger,
bargaining, acceptance? That's what it seemed like every time we got together!
---although there wasn't a whole lot of the acceptance part! <g>
Being comfortable with your decision is the first step---knowing in your
heart that you're dong the right thing. That unschooling is GOOD for you and
your kids. Start writing here---you have a willing audience! Other newbies
looking for ways to get over this hump too. The more you do it, the better you get
(kind of like learning, huh? <g>). If you can defend/explain unschooling
here on this e-list to the "newbi-ers" coming in, well, that's a good start in
helping you to find the words you need IRL. (You can always delete here until
you get it right! <G>) I've seen a lot of folks here recently starting to
paddle out to answer questions! Getting their feet wet!
You can just avoid the in-laws and aunts by saying that you're gong to try
this for a year and that, if it doesn't work out, you can always send them
back to school or purchase a curriculum. One year won't make that much
difference. And you can say that every year! <G>
You can tell them to back off, they're your children, you'll make the
decisions, thank you very much.
You can smile and say, "Thanks for your opinion; I'll take it under
consideration. Please pass the bean dip."
You can hand them a book list (John Holt, Frank Smith, Valerie Fitzenreiter,
Mary Griffith) and give them an assignment: "Read these and when you're
done, I'll administer the test. If you fail, you don't get to make any more
comments on the children's education."
A huge smile and a "Unschooling's GREAT! Wonderful! I can't believe how
happy everyone is! How much we're learning! God, I wish we'd done this sooner!"
can go a long way too! <G>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It's simple, but it's hard.
Getting to the paradigm shift takes a lot of thinking and doing. You know
it's the right thing, but you just can't get to that point where it's "natural"
or "flowing" or whatever. I made the commitment to unschool *months* before
actually being able to put it into practice. I understood it, but it just
wouldn't come. Then one day, it just seemed clear----and all this negativity
just disappeared. I had been doing what Sandra and Joyce and Anne and Mary and
Pam had been telling me to do: play with the children, watch them, do for them,
be with them---and it just clicked.
WHEN it clicks, you're going to be doing that V-8 hand against the head
thing because it's *so simple*---it's just hard! <G>
Avoid the peopple who don't understand---they're feeding you doubts. As soon
as you're comfortable with what you're doing, you can go back and explain
with better words what it is you're doing and why. But letting them add stress
and raoadblocks to your life will only make it harder to get where you're
going.
Oh, Gawd---I sound like the cult brainwasher! <G> "Cut off all contact with
the outside world until you believe as I do!" Yikes! LOL I guess that's how
school works so well at brainwashing sheeple! <G>
Buit seriously, the more unschoolers you can surround youself with IRL, the
easier it will be the emulate them and make the shift.
Losing the baggage is very, very gradual----until one day, it's just GONE.
But every day, if you can say yes just one extra time or see the learning that
happens during a video game or watch the joy in your child's eyes when he
masters something----if you can accept these things as unschooling, then the
baggage will get lighter and lighter until it's gone.
If you have specific questions, ask away----there may be a newbie out here
who wants to tell her story and explain it to you!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jecaam28@... writes:
Well, I *want* to get it. but just can't seem to. I can't let go of
the baggage and jump in. I really like the idea but waver from family
pressure. I was just about to decide to give up and homeschool after
talking to a school teacher while getting my car fixed, talking to my
aunt who had talked to her friend who was a shoolteacher who
mentioned a homeschooled child who had returned to school and was
*behind* and she had to *catch* him up (whew!...sorry), and trying to
give answers to "how's the homeschooling going" from other friends
and family members, and trying to integrate my husbands comfort
level, then I read this thread. I just feel like we are doing nothing
and my kids will be so far behind, and what if this doesn't work out
and we send them back to school, and what if..., and what if... ugh!
I have to defend SO many of my positions to people because they
aren't the *norm*. Do I really want to add another one? And one on
such a sensitive subject for _my family_ (mip://05d4a9a0/my%20family) ?
College was not an option in
my family it was just the next step. I come from a family of school
teachers from way back. I can see the point you make about doing what
you are passionate about. I am 33 and have just now found mine. I
think I knew when I was 20, I just didn't know what to do with it.
Would I if I had been unschooled? Would I have known sooner? I don't
know. I'm so very confused and frustrated and feel like I'm doing no
good by my children right now and maybe I should have just kept them
in school. But if I can get past this, I can see how this could be
SO good! How do you let go of the baggage? <<<<<
Sorry you're struggling so much, Jennifer!
>>>I have to defend SO many of my positions to people because theyaren't the *norm*. Do I really want to add another one? <<<
What's one more? <g>
It takes a pretty thick skin to get through the first year or so of
unschooling.
You will hear a lot of negative comments from well-meaning family members,
friends, and even strangers-----and they *are* well-meaning! They really think
you are making a grave mistake and are trying to save you a ton of regret and
pain. But what do *you* think----in your heart? Do you think that 12 to 14
years of school will make a person worthy? That good grades make you more
worthy? That learning can only happen when it's taught? In a classroom? From
8:30-3:00? For 180 days a year?
I thought a lot of that. Brainwashing at its finest! <g> Private schools,
good grades, college.
I spent my junior year of college in Vienna, Austria. I got to see a
different world. It changed my views on a lot of things----especially what is
important to learn/know---for *me* anyway. And I STILL put my precious baby in
school at four years old! The same private school I went to!
I spent all day sometimes at the school helping out in the classroom or in
the parent resource room. Room mom. Volunteer. Chaperone. Field trip planner.
Parents' Board. I did it all. I was incredibly involved with the school, with
the classroom, and with Cameron's learning/grades/homework.
But I watched this child who was filled with wonder for everything, who
looked for reasons to ask questions and see answers, who threw himself into
projects and imaginative play, who LOVED to LEARN----I watched this sweet boy
slowly stop caring and stop learning and -----he had what I read in Stephen
King's book _It_. Those dead lights. Staring eyes with no life in them? That's
what he'd become. A twelve year old with dead lights.
Cameron mentioned to me one night (it was the eve of his birthday night, in
fact) that he would like to be homeschooled. I laughed and said something not
very nice. Then I started thinking about it. I went to the library and
checked out every book on homeschooling. I found John Holt among them and was
changed overnight. (Well, I knew what I wanted; I just didn't know how to get
there! <g>)
My mother and my in-laws thought I'd lost my mind. How could a ROOM MOM turn
against schools? <g> Oddly, their biggest concerns seemed to be
social----and I don't mean that in the same way most people do. The grandmothers were
most worried about football and the prom! LOL
My father put my mother in her place by saying that all the homeschooling
mothers he'd met had been very smart and caring. The kids seemed better off
with homeschooling than with school. My dad's an adolescent psychiatrist! <G>
Cameron spent the first year getting algebra and history questions from the
aunts and uncles (a nurse, a doctor, and a teacher! ugh!). I put a stop to
that by asking *them* a few math and history questions (like which high school
did Ben Franklin graduate? how many unschoolers did it take to sign a
Declaration of Independence? <g>). But I always felt on the defensive--- and I didn't
like it. I decided to change tactics: I asked them----no, I *told* them---to
lay off the boys. I don't drill their children. Don't drill mine!
That worked as far as the boys were concerned
But then *their* kids started noticing how much freedom our children had.
That made for some *very* uncomfortable situations. "Why can't...? How come...?
But Cameron can...! Why not?"
It's kind of like the stages of grief/ You know----denial, anger,
bargaining, acceptance? That's what it seemed like every time we got together!
---although there wasn't a whole lot of the acceptance part! <g>
Being comfortable with your decision is the first step---knowing in your
heart that you're dong the right thing. That unschooling is GOOD for you and
your kids. Start writing here---you have a willing audience! Other newbies
looking for ways to get over this hump too. The more you do it, the better you get
(kind of like learning, huh? <g>). If you can defend/explain unschooling
here on this e-list to the "newbi-ers" coming in, well, that's a good start in
helping you to find the words you need IRL. (You can always delete here until
you get it right! <G>) I've seen a lot of folks here recently starting to
paddle out to answer questions! Getting their feet wet!
You can just avoid the in-laws and aunts by saying that you're gong to try
this for a year and that, if it doesn't work out, you can always send them
back to school or purchase a curriculum. One year won't make that much
difference. And you can say that every year! <G>
You can tell them to back off, they're your children, you'll make the
decisions, thank you very much.
You can smile and say, "Thanks for your opinion; I'll take it under
consideration. Please pass the bean dip."
You can hand them a book list (John Holt, Frank Smith, Valerie Fitzenreiter,
Mary Griffith) and give them an assignment: "Read these and when you're
done, I'll administer the test. If you fail, you don't get to make any more
comments on the children's education."
A huge smile and a "Unschooling's GREAT! Wonderful! I can't believe how
happy everyone is! How much we're learning! God, I wish we'd done this sooner!"
can go a long way too! <G>
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It's simple, but it's hard.
Getting to the paradigm shift takes a lot of thinking and doing. You know
it's the right thing, but you just can't get to that point where it's "natural"
or "flowing" or whatever. I made the commitment to unschool *months* before
actually being able to put it into practice. I understood it, but it just
wouldn't come. Then one day, it just seemed clear----and all this negativity
just disappeared. I had been doing what Sandra and Joyce and Anne and Mary and
Pam had been telling me to do: play with the children, watch them, do for them,
be with them---and it just clicked.
WHEN it clicks, you're going to be doing that V-8 hand against the head
thing because it's *so simple*---it's just hard! <G>
Avoid the peopple who don't understand---they're feeding you doubts. As soon
as you're comfortable with what you're doing, you can go back and explain
with better words what it is you're doing and why. But letting them add stress
and raoadblocks to your life will only make it harder to get where you're
going.
Oh, Gawd---I sound like the cult brainwasher! <G> "Cut off all contact with
the outside world until you believe as I do!" Yikes! LOL I guess that's how
school works so well at brainwashing sheeple! <G>
Buit seriously, the more unschoolers you can surround youself with IRL, the
easier it will be the emulate them and make the shift.
Losing the baggage is very, very gradual----until one day, it's just GONE.
But every day, if you can say yes just one extra time or see the learning that
happens during a video game or watch the joy in your child's eyes when he
masters something----if you can accept these things as unschooling, then the
baggage will get lighter and lighter until it's gone.
If you have specific questions, ask away----there may be a newbie out here
who wants to tell her story and explain it to you!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
<<<<I do think an appreciation of algebra and calculus is a good
thing,>>>>
Why? I have a Master's of Science degree from the University of Houston and never took calculus, don't even know what it is for particularly. In my life, I am much more likely to need to know the attack points of a particular Yu-Gi-Oh monster than some type of math higher than division.
So of course, calculus is fine and dandy for those interested in it but certainly not necessarily a "good thing" for someone longing to do something else.
And yes, I think the term eclectic describes what you are doing very well.
Julie S.
thing,>>>>
Why? I have a Master's of Science degree from the University of Houston and never took calculus, don't even know what it is for particularly. In my life, I am much more likely to need to know the attack points of a particular Yu-Gi-Oh monster than some type of math higher than division.
So of course, calculus is fine and dandy for those interested in it but certainly not necessarily a "good thing" for someone longing to do something else.
And yes, I think the term eclectic describes what you are doing very well.
Julie S.
----- Original Message -----
From: dana tierney
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 7:05 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Opinions wanted on Unschooling
well
I've been told I am not "really" an unschooler, but here is some input
for what it is worth. Please note that I am not interested in
suggestions on how to unschool in a politically correct manner; what
we do works for us.
It is not clear to me who is ill at your house, but I have found that
the flexibility of unschooling accomodates itself admirably to
doctor's appointments, procedures, and hospital stays.
Certain members of the unschooling community seem to feel that college
is "bad" and this gives me pause; it may not be necessary or ideal for
every child but you know what? I loved college, personally. So I think
it is important to allow the child to chose, rather than specifically
discouraging academic or non-academic pursuits.
It troubles me somewhat when I see people proudly proclaiming
themselves to be radical unschoolers in posts full of misspellings and
sentence fragments. Fortunately these are a minority of unschooling
parents, and I tell myself that just as childen survive bab schools
their children will survive their unschooling parents.
I personally do think that childen, when left to themselves, often
choose pursuits that would confound the skeptics. I personally do feel
the need to intervene every so often and assign a specific book that I
know they can read though it might be a bit hard to start -- Kim by
Rudyard Kipling was the last one.
Our particular sticking point is math, where they are falling somewhat
behind. I do think an appreciation of algebra and calculus is a good
thing, and it is one of those things like brushing your teeth where
the benefit is not immediately apparent. Actually, if anyone has a
suggestion on *that* (besides don't worry about it cause they wll when
they are ready) then I might like to hear it.
Perhaps I should describe myself as a mixed or eclectic unschooler,
but I have been around the mulberry bush with the politically correct
on the various lists that I am not much interested in the labels
anymore. Some people take unschooling to the point that they think you
should allow the child to sleep as late as he/she likes and act as
he/she pleases. I don't go there. I may be a laissez-faire parent but
I feel it is my role to be a parent and be authoritative when the
situation requires it.
To answer your husband's concern about college; my own difficulties
along this line are that they tell me that my 14yo is too young and
they won't even consider him until he's 16. Otherwise I'd say he's as
ready as your average community college freshman, math problems and
all.
Hope this frank appraisal of pros and cons as I see them helps you a little.
Dana
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004 20:14:32 -0500, Virginia Glasser
<virginia@...> wrote:
>
> I'm for unschooling, my husband is not. I would like to gather as many
> objective opinions(if that's possible) as I can, regarding this approach to
> homeschooling. I would love to hear from anyone who has given it a shot and
> failed miserably, as well as from those who love it and are very successful,
> or from those falling any where in between. I also want to hear from folks
> who have teens, and hear from people who are grown who might have been
> unschooled. I know this is a tall order but I'm really needing all the input
> I can get. Thanks!
>
> Virginia Glasser
> StampinUp! Demonstrator
> http://www.virginiaglasser.stampinup.net
> I'm proud to be a Stampin' Up demonstrator!
> Ask me how you can earn free stamping or scrapbooking supplies!
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sheila
> The point is I have become emotionally in miserable turmoil becauseI got
> involved in not one but two "how to school" conversations withpeople who
> are not interested in Unschooling. I should have known better. I*do* know
> better.I'm glad you have written about this. We've just moved this summer
>
to a new area (actually my old home town). Anyway, I've been going
to quite a few different support group meetings in the area. I want
to allow myself to get a feel of how each is run. Since we've
decided to unschool, I've found many of the support groups do not
help me in my endeavor. I found one right in town that have a
mixture of homeschooling philosophies, but quite a few unschoolers.
I also found myself leaning towards them and really listening when
they would share. Recently I found out there is a branch of this
group which is an unschooling group. I plan on going to the first
meeting Monday night and am looking so forward to it. With all that
said, I have found that I need to hang with "like-minded" people.
Unschooling floats in my soul but does not come out naturally for
me. It does with my husband though. Anytime we talk about what we
want for the kids, his approach is total natural learning. Mine is
school baggage. Hanging with like-minded people on-line or at groups
allows me to grow more confident each day with this adventure, just
as the actual choice to homeschool did in the beginning.
>the best of
> We can live our lives in fear of catastrophe, and keep looking to an
> imagined disastrous future. Or we can acknowledge that even with
> intentions our children *might* end up in PS because of someexternal force,
> but in the mean time we can make the present as wonderful aspossible. If we
> live in fear we never leave the house and never cross the road. Ifwe live
> in the joyful present we need have no regrets should some horribleThank you for this too. One woman share the other night at a
> unforeseen event cloud the future.
>
meeting about a situation where her friend unschooled her children.
She said "I always wondered what they were learning and felt -not
much because they appeared to be doing nothing all of the time." The
friend came upon financial difficulty and had to go back to work
therefore putting her children in PS. This woman shared how the kids
were way behind in their grades and were having an awful time in PS
(like an I told you so). She shared she "schools" grade specific
because if anything happened to her, she'd want her children to be
ready for PS. Well that put the fear of God in me. So off I went
for the next two days ready to look into Sonlight curriculum,
figuring this just wasn't going to work. Then my kids came down and
sat with my mother and I to watch the debates. 12 1/2 and almost
11! I realized I didn't ask them to. They wanted to watch the
debates! I thought of my nieces in PS and told myself, I can
guarantee they are not wanting to see what each candidate believes
in. It led into some discussion, etc. etc. So I'm holding on and
watching as my kids prove how learning is so natural. They are
teaching me! ;)
Sheila