Nance Confer

unschoolingbasicsBut I don't think it's ever useful for building relationships to
label what someone else likes as stupid or dumb or boring or anything
negative. There are gentler, kinder, more relationship building ways
of sharing our likes and dislikes without using judgmental words.
Even if the members of a family don't find the words hurtful, there
will be other people outside the family who will be put off and feel
put down. And that's a good thing for kids to know, even if their
family is less sensitive.

Joyce



**Well, then we disagree. I think the way my family relates is terrific -- including less-than-perfectly-gentle opinions sometimes -- and if the rest of the world wants to be offended by the way we discuss TV shows, well, they should get a hobby. :)

**There are times when kinder and gentler are appropriate and times when it is OK to speak your mind. I'm not suggesting my kids go out in the world and pick fights about TV shows. But people have different tastes and that's OK. Everyone isn't all that fragile.

Nance



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Sylvia Toyama

**There are times when kinder and gentler are appropriate and times
when it is OK to speak your mind. I'm not suggesting my kids go out in
the world and pick fights about TV shows. But people have different
tastes and that's OK. Everyone isn't all that fragile.

****
Sensitivity has not a thing to do with being fragile. Kinder and
gentler are always appropriate. It is possible to speak one's mind,
while being kind and gentle.

Earlier in this topic you said "he is a Jets fan after all. He's used
to disdain." and I just cringed. I realize you weren't talking to me
directly -- I overheard you much as I might at a gathering. My first
thought, tho, was "are all sports fans that mean-spirited towards each
other?" My next thought was to wonder why you would joke about your
husband being used to disdain. My response is not because I'm
fragile, but because I really think a kinder world is a good thing,
and every little kindness helps.

Sylvia

Joyce Fetteroll

On Aug 8, 2008, at 10:08 AM, Nance Confer wrote:

> I think the way my family relates is terrific -- including less-
> than-perfectly-gentle opinions sometimes -- and if the rest of the
> world wants to be offended by the way we discuss TV shows, well,
> they should get a hobby. :)

The rest of the world is not offended by what you do in your home.

The list is for ideas that move people towards unschooling and
improve relationships. We're discussing ideas. If you've thrown an
idea onto the list that only works with the personalities in your
home, it's not useful to the list.

My family can probably do more teasing than some families. I don't
advocate teasing. It's not a good idea.

> and times when it is OK to speak your mind

This is an aspect where the conversation seems to go wrong. You're
saying that "I don't like that show because of x, y, and z." is not
speaking your mind, but saying "That's dumb," is.

Here's some more where you're saying people *aren't* doing this who
aren't using judgmental words:

> Actually, quite the opposite. I think it frees them to decide what
> they like for themselves. With or without my enthusiasm.

My daughter neither needs my enthusiasm or approval to like
something. And she's achieved that without hearing me call things I
don't like stupid.

> Nobody HAS to watch what the other wants to watch.

No one does in our house, either.

> We went through the things where I pretended to be interested when
> they were very young.

I *showed* interest in her interests. I did things she liked that I
was indifferent to (and let my husband handle the things I really
didn't like). I don't remember pretending interest.

> And watching TV around here has always been an interactive activity
> anyway. We have always sliced and diced ads, for instance.

As do we. But we don't need to call things dumb to have a
conversation. Dumb and stupid -- in general, perhaps not in your
family -- can be conversation stoppers. What does one say to "That's
dumb"? "No, it's not."? It's helpful to get kids to draw out what
they like and don't like. Dumb doesn't really communicate anything.
It's a vague word whose meaning is specific to the person using it.

And that's not meant for your family. It's meant for anyone who is
still reading along and hadn't ever really thought about it. (Or had
conversations stopped by "That was good." or "That was stupid." and
didn't know why.

> I don't know -- we just aren't required to assign value to things
> because the other person likes it.

And no one is saying that either. There are so many ideas you're
pulling out of the suggestion that there are better ways to
communicate than judgmental words that just aren't part of what is
going on.

> But he knows, as the kids know, that the disdain is for the game --
> or those cars all driving very fast while turning left, what the
> heck is entertaining about that! -- and not him.

And it's very helpful for kids out in the world to realize that some
people *do* feel judged when what they like is judged negatively.
Without that awareness those kids are going to hurt without realizing
it. And it won't help those kids if the attitude is that people can
be dismissed as "too sensitive".

I'm not saying you're family isn't aware. I am discussing the idea in
a general way for other people to pick up and examine.

> I'm not going to suggest others should live the way we do

And no one suggests others should live the way the frequent posters
on the list do either (even though it seems like it!) The list is for
people who want to figure out how to move toward unschooling and how
to build better relationships. It's an implied contract that the
posters here will provide that kind of information. Any ideas tossed
into the general pool will get examined against those goals. Any
ideas that moved away will be given critical examination.

Joyce

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Nance Confer

unschoolingbasicsWell, we are unschoolers and have good relationships.

Not every happy unschooling family will look the same.

Maybe that is the reason you find certain words unhelpful and I find the idea of forbidding certain words unhelpful to anyone looking to live as a happy unschooling family.

Nance

***********


And no one suggests others should live the way the frequent posters
on the list do either (even though it seems like it!) The list is for
people who want to figure out how to move toward unschooling and how
to build better relationships. It's an implied contract that the
posters here will provide that kind of information. Any ideas tossed
into the general pool will get examined against those goals. Any
ideas that moved away will be given critical examination.

Joyce


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