Debbie S.

Hello everyone,
I am thoroughly enjoying the sheer volume of e-mails and insightfulness
shared on this list! It is wonderful to have so many active people being so
open about what has and hasn't worked in their lives.
I haven't been a member long, so I'm not sure if there are folks on this
list who could help give me some suggestions. My dh & I are contemplating
separation. He's not a bad person or a bad father, but we are definitely at
very different places in our lives at the moment. We will not part ways
until we can be certain that I am still able to be at home with our daughter
(almost 2). While we may not be able to parent her under the same roof
together, we will not sacrifice her well-being for our own. My biggest
concern about staying is modeling our relationships as an acceptable way to
live - which I fell very strongly it is not! While we can be cordial and
respectful with one another, the affection and closeness is gone. We view
life from very different perspectives. Anyway, I don't really want to get
into any kind of "blame game" here - there are things we both could've done
differently.
So I guess my main questions is - how do you protect the little ones
when dealing with such "adult" issues that effect every aspect of their
lives???

Thank you!

Deb. S.

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie S. <Glasswitch@...>

My dh & I are contemplating
separation. He's not a bad person or a bad father, but we are
definitely at
very different places in our lives at the moment.

-=-=-=

Not that divorce can't be a *good* thing. It's just that it too often
seems like the *only* option. Are you willing to look at other
possibilities?

-=-=-=-=-=-

So I guess my main questions is - how do you protect the little
ones
when dealing with such "adult" issues that effect every aspect of their
lives???

-=-=-=-=-

I'd consider reconsidering. <G> There are so many things to think
about! Is this the "final solution" ??



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org


________________________________________________________________________
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Debbie S.

We have consider and re-considered this decision over and over again. It is definitely not a decision being made lightly. We have been together for over 12 years now and have been through a lot in that time. The reality is that he is bi-polar. When he is "plugged-in" he is a fabulous father, when he's not, he's asleep or growling. While I would prefer not to go too deeply into our lives, perhaps a recent example may be helpful. A few weeks ago our daughter woke up at 2 in the morning and was having a really hard time falling back asleep. She was exhausted and crying. His answer was to leave the bedroom and go lay on the couch. When he left the room, she decided she wanted to go out in the living room also and have me rock her in the rocking chair. All she wanted was to be in the same room with him while she fell back asleep. His answer to that was that he wasn't going to be in the same room with her until she stopped screaming, and he stomped back off into the bedroom and slammed the door. It took me about 10 minutes to get her to settle back down and go back to sleep. The next day I tried to say to him that all she wanted was to be in the same room with him and that I thought it was really crappy that he couldn't give up 10 minutes of sleep for his 20 month old daughter. He said she needs to learn she can't just scream to get what she wants, and he needs him sleep. (Never mind the fact that he spent more than half the day before in bed).
There are plenty more examples of choice I would make differently than him, but I don't really feel it's productive to get into them. The bottom line for me is that if his almost dying didn't change his outlook on life and him literally bringing his daughter into this world (she was born at home), then what chance to I have of coming up with the right words to open his eyes. He was raised in an abusive, alcoholic family and while he never drinks and wouldn't consider raising a hand to her, he is very much stuck in the "victim mentality".
I posted my question to this list because I know that parents who unschool take their children's best interest very seriously. There is a deeper dedication to children among those who take the time to actually care what their life experiences are. If this is not an appropriate venue for my question I apologize.

Deb. S.


-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie S. <Glasswitch@...>

My dh & I are contemplating
separation. He's not a bad person or a bad father, but we are
definitely at
very different places in our lives at the moment.

-=-=-=

Not that divorce can't be a *good* thing. It's just that it too often
seems like the *only* option. Are you willing to look at other
possibilities?

-=-=-=-=-=-

So I guess my main questions is - how do you protect the little
ones
when dealing with such "adult" issues that effect every aspect of their
lives???

-=-=-=-=-

I'd consider reconsidering. <G> There are so many things to think
about! Is this the "final solution" ??



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
Tiphereth Glass Studio / TGlass Studios
Creating items that awaken the spirit while
they beautify the space.
www.tglass.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Julie Dutt

Deb, Just wanted to let you know that I'm in the same boat as you.
There is no hope for my marriage. I still plan on unschooling after
the divorce but know that it will be extremely difficult.

I'm going to school right now to get my real estate license. I also
have a couple of home based businesses that I run. That, along w/
child support, should be enough. I also plan on moving about two hours
south of where I am now to be closer to my brother & his family who
also homeschool for support.

If you want to contact me off list, please email me at:
julieannhg@....

julie

On Feb 18, 2008, at 10:44 PM, Debbie S. wrote:

> We have consider and re-considered this decision over and over again.
> It is definitely not a decision being made lightly. We have been
> together for over 12 years now and have been through a lot in that
> time. The reality is that he is bi-polar. When he is "plugged-in" he
> is a fabulous father, when he's not, he's asleep or growling. While I
> would prefer not to go too deeply into our lives, perhaps a recent
> example may be helpful. A few weeks ago our daughter woke up at 2 in
> the morning and was having a really hard time falling back asleep. She
> was exhausted and crying. His answer was to leave the bedroom and go
> lay on the couch. When he left the room, she decided she wanted to go
> out in the living room also and have me rock her in the rocking chair.
> All she wanted was to be in the same room with him while she fell back
> asleep. His answer to that was that he wasn't going to be in the same
> room with her until she stopped screaming, and he stomped b There are
> plenty more examples of choice I would make differently than him, but
> I don't really feel it's productive to get into them. The bottom line
> for me is that if his almost dying didn't change his outlook on life
> and him literally bringing his daughter into this world (she was born
> at home), then what chance to I have of coming up with the right words
> to open his eyes. He was raised in an abusive, alcoholic family and
> while he never drinks and wouldn't consider raising a hand to her, he
> is very much stuck in the "victim mentality".
> I posted my question to this list because I know that parents who
> unschool take their children's best interest very seriously. There is
> a deeper dedication to children among those who take the time to
> actually care what their life experiences are. If this is not an
> appropriate venue for my question I apologize.
>
> Deb. S.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Debbie S. <Glasswitch@...>
>
> My dh & I are contemplating
> separation. He's not a bad person or a bad father, but we are
> definitely at
> very different places in our lives at the moment.
>
> -=-=-=
>
> Not that divorce can't be a *good* thing. It's just that it too often
> seems like the *only* option. Are you willing to look at other
> possibilities?
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
>
> So I guess my main questions is - how do you protect the little
> ones
> when dealing with such "adult" issues that effect every aspect of
> their
> lives???
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> I'd consider reconsidering. <G> There are so many things to think
> about! Is this the "final solution" ??
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
> Tiphereth Glass Studio / TGlass Studios
> Creating items that awaken the spirit while
> they beautify the space.
> www.tglass.net
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Julie

http://bittybraille.com
http://julieannhandmadegoods.com
http://julieann.etsy.com
http://julieann-handmade-goods.blogspot.com
http://indiediner.blogspot.com
http://findingwonder.blogspot.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pamela Sorooshian

Hi Debbie --

Was that example about the worst thing you could think of? LOTS of
dads don't "get" the idea of comforting and caring for crying children
during the night. Lots of dads don't have that nurturing sense and
lots seem really unwilling to pay attention to baby's and young
children's needs. Just saying, it is not uncommon.

Seriously - I really am certain that many people have started from
situations as bad or worse and made it better, over time.

You won't come up with the right words to "open his eyes," but divorce
is truly very very hard on children and often in ways that are not
anticipated by the parents at the time of divorce, so you're removing
his very apparent difficult behavior and replacing it with other
difficulties that you may not see for years.

I'm not saying don't do it - obviously, we don't know your situation.
You don't need to defend it here, either. Please don't take this as a
criticism. It is just that divorce is seen as "the answer" by so many
people these days and it is much easier to get divorced than imagine
living for years with the difficulties of the marriage. There is a lot
of support for divorce and much less support for sticking with a
marriage that isn't working well. "For the sake of the kids," is out
of fashion, but still worth considering.

Just giving you some support for considering. Unschooling can be
extremely difficult for single moms and once he's not married to you,
there is a good chance he'll find someone else to marry, have children
with her, and that person won't be thrilled with him fully supporting
you and things could get much harder.

-pam


On Feb 18, 2008, at 7:44 PM, Debbie S. wrote:

> There are plenty more examples of choice I would make differently
> than him, but I don't really feel it's productive to get into them.
> The bottom line for me is that if his almost dying didn't change his
> outlook on life and him literally bringing his daughter into this
> world (she was born at home), then what chance to I have of coming
> up with the right words to open his eyes. He was raised in an
> abusive, alcoholic family and while he never drinks and wouldn't
> consider raising a hand to her, he is very much stuck in the "victim
> mentality".
> I posted my question to this list because I know that parents who
> unschool take their children's best interest very seriously. There
> is a deeper dedication to children among those who take the time to
> actually care what their life experiences are. If this is not an
> appropriate venue for my question I apologize.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lspswr

--- "Debbie S." <Glasswitch@...> wrote:
>The bottom line for me is that if his almost dying didn't change his
outlook on life and him literally bringing his daughter into this world
(she was born at home), then what chance to I have of coming up with
the right words to open his eyes. He was raised in an abusive,
alcoholic family and while he never drinks and wouldn't consider
raising a hand to her, he is very much stuck in the "victim mentality".<

Hi Debbie,

I know it's tough to find the good when you're feeling so bad; I've
been there, done that. I'm one who has "stuck it out" even when
everyone else told me to leave... and I'm so glad that I have. One
question that really helped me to wrap my brain around the possibility
of *staying* was, "Would things really be BETTER if we weren't
together?" Of course they would be different, but would they be
BETTER? Using your example - would your daughter have calmed down any
sooner if dh was not in the house? Knowing he's in the next room but
not visible might be more comforting than knowing you have no immediate
access. Yes, it feels like rejection when he's not willing to give a
few minutes generously, but would it feel less like rejection if he
wasn't there at all?

I'm not here to judge *anything;* I encourage you to think about
the "big picture" and not just the details. Details pile up into big
heaps, but even the heaps don't block out the whole picture. Back up
away from the piles and the heaps until you can see the giant picture.
If you can see the entire horizon and can SEE the BETTER, then maybe
you can stay in the picture and find the better at the same time.

The other thing I would suggest is that giving this lifestyle a chance
and extending it to dh will probably, over time, bring some positive
changes as well. Using your example, how would you have handled dh's
reaction if he was another child? So often we get caught up in
expecting our partners to "behave like adults" (whatever that means)
that we fail to treat them as well as we do our children. How would
you have handled it if dh was a child instead of dh? Would following
him into the space he retreated into have seemed kind? Mainstream
thinking expects that adults will be in control and that we "train" our
children to "be in control." That's not this lifestyle's goal. The
goal is joyful living. If you can possibly extend that generousity to
your dh and think in terms of helping *him* to feel better as well as
your dd, you'll be further on your way to BETTER. I know it's a tough
mind change and requires a lot of generousity! But as one person who
has BTDT, I can highly recommend it as worthwhile and as WAY BETTER
than I could have ever imagined when I started!

We've been on this life journey for 2 years now, and I can't even begin
to tell you how drastically different our marriage and family have
become through this life. It's been really really hard at times -- and
I can tell you without a doubt that it's SO much BETTER because I made
the effort. Many many weeks I felt like I shouldn't HAVE to give what
I gave... but that was the trick. When I gave it because I wanted our
whole family to feel better and not because I HAD to then magic things
started to happen.

Again, I'm not trying to talk you out of anything you know is right for
you and your family. I'm just sharing what my experience has been and
that truly LIVING this lifestyle and applying it to ALL members of the
family has brought gifts beyond my wildest dreams. "Generousity of
spirit" is what I think was the key for me. I felt like I was giving
and giving and getting nothing... but then after a while it started
coming back to me and now I can honestly say that I GET SO MUCH! It's
been so worth it!

All the best to you!
Linda

Jodi Bezzola

~~~The other thing I would suggest is that giving this lifestyle a chance
and extending it to dh will probably, over time, bring some positive
changes as well.. If you can possibly extend that generousity to
your dh and think in terms of helping *him* to feel better as well as
your dd, you'll be further on your way to BETTER. I know it's a tough
mind change and requires a lot of generousity! We've been on this life journey for 2 years now, and I can't even begin to tell you how drastically different our marriage and family have
become through this life. It's been really really hard at times -- and
I can tell you without a doubt that it's SO much BETTER because I made
the effort. Many many weeks I felt like I shouldn't HAVE to give what
I gave... but that was the trick. When I gave it because I wanted our
whole family to feel better and not because I HAD to then magic things
started to happen. "Generousity of spirit" is what I think was the key for me. I felt like I was giving and giving and getting nothing... but then after a while it started
coming back to me and now I can honestly say that I GET SO MUCH! It's
been so worth it.~~
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This post speak very clearly to my situation. I can *so* relate to all that has been shared in this thread! Dh and I are going through a pretty rocky time , in fact just about every day I think about leaving, usually after yet another conflict that leaves me feeling pretty hopeless and exhausted about how things are between us right now.

I have received the message so many times that 'if it is to be it is up to me', and MAN, do I hate hearing that! I too have felt so often like I shouldn't have to give as much as I give, to the girls, to dh, and then I sit and think of the alternative. Me committed to being home with the girls, dh not making enough to support 2 households, me being a single mama with no other adult in the house hardly at all, the girls missing their dad all the time, the message it would send to the girls about how hard we work for those we love, etc., these are all things that run through my mind. I can love and hate that man in the space of 3 seconds it seems!

And to be honest (and when I'm being totally out of denial and blaming him), I see that I can be just a little challenging to be in relationship with too!! It has helped me *immeasureably* to treat dh like a third child. To apply the unschooling principles to him as well as to the girls. To give him freedom. To let him see what we're doing and work it out for himself. I have no idea if it will come back to me yet, since I'm still in the giving giving giving phase of all this. I just wanted to encourage you as well to look at the big picture. My dh was raised in a family where what was really going on was never mentioned, and it's a completely new thought to him (much to my amazement) that his childhood has anything to do with how he parents and is relationship now! So he's beginning his journey, and we're along for the ride <g>.

Jodi


---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

lspswr

> I have received the message so many times that 'if it is to be it
is up to me', and MAN, do I hate hearing that!<

That's it, in a nutshell. It DOES have to be me, because I'm the one
who sees something I want to change. Dh doesn't see it and is not
interested in learning, but he certainly is FEELING better and more
respected and therefore is much more capable of learning something
different. This is a lifestyle that is learned by FEELINGS -- if it
feels better, then of course go with what brings joy. But it's not
just for the kids! I've found that extending these principles to dh
has been WAY harder, but ultimately WAY more influential in the grand
scheme of achieving family happiness. I really do think
that "unschooling our partners" is the biggest piece of finding the
joy we're seeking. If I don't show dh how to live differently and
how it feels BETTER to live differently then of course he will have
no reason to ever change. I'm not saying I expect him to change -
I'm saying that one *cannot* change if they do not see or feel any
benefits of changing. Prior to this I gave a lot of ultimatums and
did a lot of talking, which never feels good for anyone and rarely
does anything other than send fear and resentment. When I decided to
BE KIND and to treat dh at least as well as I treated ds... then he
felt better and wanted to participate in our lives more. It's that
whole rules vs. principles thing. This life is amazing!

Linda

Jodi Bezzola

I'm so looking forward to getting to "this life is amazing!". I still revert back to doing *way* too much talking with dh. I believe the same, that unschooling our partners is a very key piece to having a joyful life. Cuz clearly what I'm doing with him *isn't* working! I still go off in fantasy though about him being 'unschooly' already too.

Jodi

lspswr <lspswr@...> wrote:
> I have received the message so many times that 'if it is to be it
is up to me', and MAN, do I hate hearing that!<

That's it, in a nutshell. It DOES have to be me, because I'm the one
who sees something I want to change. Dh doesn't see it and is not
interested in learning, but he certainly is FEELING better and more
respected and therefore is much more capable of learning something
different. This is a lifestyle that is learned by FEELINGS -- if it
feels better, then of course go with what brings joy. But it's not
just for the kids! I've found that extending these principles to dh
has been WAY harder, but ultimately WAY more influential in the grand
scheme of achieving family happiness. I really do think
that "unschooling our partners" is the biggest piece of finding the
joy we're seeking. If I don't show dh how to live differently and
how it feels BETTER to live differently then of course he will have
no reason to ever change. I'm not saying I expect him to change -
I'm saying that one *cannot* change if they do not see or feel any
benefits of changing. Prior to this I gave a lot of ultimatums and
did a lot of talking, which never feels good for anyone and rarely
does anything other than send fear and resentment. When I decided to
BE KIND and to treat dh at least as well as I treated ds... then he
felt better and wanted to participate in our lives more. It's that
whole rules vs. principles thing. This life is amazing!

Linda






---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keetry

Does anyone know of an instance where the roles in a situation like
this were reversed? Not that I don't think we should all give
however much we can, especially if it's something we want. I'm just
curious if anyone knows of any husbands/fathers who have felt they
had to treat their wives as another child because she just wasn't
getting what he was trying to accomplish? Or, is it that it's always
going to be the wife/mother/woman in this position since she is the
primary childcare giver during the early years?

Alysia

--- In [email protected], Jodi Bezzola
<jodibezzola@...> wrote:
>
> ~~~The other thing I would suggest is that giving this lifestyle a
chance
> and extending it to dh will probably, over time, bring some
positive
> changes as well.. If you can possibly extend that generousity to
> your dh and think in terms of helping *him* to feel better as well
as
> your dd, you'll be further on your way to BETTER. I know it's a
tough
> mind change and requires a lot of generousity! We've been on this
life journey for 2 years now, and I can't even begin to tell you how
drastically different our marriage and family have
> become through this life. It's been really really hard at times --
and
> I can tell you without a doubt that it's SO much BETTER because I
made
> the effort. Many many weeks I felt like I shouldn't HAVE to give
what
> I gave... but that was the trick. When I gave it because I wanted
our
> whole family to feel better and not because I HAD to then magic
things
> started to happen. "Generousity of spirit" is what I think was the
key for me. I felt like I was giving and giving and getting
nothing... but then after a while it started
> coming back to me and now I can honestly say that I GET SO MUCH!
It's
> been so worth it.~~
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
>
> This post speak very clearly to my situation. I can *so* relate
to all that has been shared in this thread! Dh and I are going
through a pretty rocky time , in fact just about every day I think
about leaving, usually after yet another conflict that leaves me
feeling pretty hopeless and exhausted about how things are between
us right now.
>
> I have received the message so many times that 'if it is to be
it is up to me', and MAN, do I hate hearing that! I too have felt
so often like I shouldn't have to give as much as I give, to the
girls, to dh, and then I sit and think of the alternative. Me
committed to being home with the girls, dh not making enough to
support 2 households, me being a single mama with no other adult in
the house hardly at all, the girls missing their dad all the time,
the message it would send to the girls about how hard we work for
those we love, etc., these are all things that run through my mind.
I can love and hate that man in the space of 3 seconds it seems!
>
> And to be honest (and when I'm being totally out of denial and
blaming him), I see that I can be just a little challenging to be in
relationship with too!! It has helped me *immeasureably* to treat
dh like a third child. To apply the unschooling principles to him
as well as to the girls. To give him freedom. To let him see what
we're doing and work it out for himself. I have no idea if it will
come back to me yet, since I'm still in the giving giving giving
phase of all this. I just wanted to encourage you as well to look
at the big picture. My dh was raised in a family where what was
really going on was never mentioned, and it's a completely new
thought to him (much to my amazement) that his childhood has
anything to do with how he parents and is relationship now! So he's
beginning his journey, and we're along for the ride <g>.
>
> Jodi
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
Mobile. Try it now.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----
From: keetry <keetry@...>

Does anyone know of an instance where the roles in a situation like
this were reversed? Not that I don't think we should all give
however much we can, especially if it's something we want. I'm just
curious if anyone knows of any husbands/fathers who have felt they
had to treat their wives as another child because she just wasn't
getting what he was trying to accomplish? Or, is it that it's always
going to be the wife/mother/woman in this position since she is the
primary childcare giver during the early years?

-=-=-=-=-

I think it's simply that there are more wives/moms on these lists.

I do know of a handful of husbands/dads that are either the
stay-at-home parents and/or the parents who "get it" more than their
wives, and their wives need the convincing. So if they were to share
here, they would probably be in that position. It's just that the
overwhelming majority here are moms.

I'm not wild about considering treating Ben as "another child"---nor
would I appreciate it if he referred to me that way. <g> I look at it
as treating *all* members of our family as important and worthy and
valued. And yes, Ben treats me that way too. <g> It's that Golden Rule
thang.

Sometimes dads are so removed from the day-to-day goings-on because
they're simply not there---they're *literally* removed. To assume that
dads can understand and grasp this concept when absent (when some of
the moms who are working at it both online with us and at home with
their kids are having a very difficult time making changes) is a large
order! Treating them (our husbands) as whole and learning and wanting
the best for their kids too is a kind and generous way to go about it.

We assume our children want to be the best people they can be, and by
treating them that way, they can't help but BE the best people they can
be. Why would treating our spouses the same way not work?

Unfortunately many come with some ugly baggage that is hard to shed.
But when they know we want the best for THEM too (and that it's not
always mom-&-the-kids against the dad), they're more likely to join us
on the journey.

I know that Ben and I are better spouses---not just better
parents---due to this lifestyle/philosophy change.

Just before finding unschooling, Ben and I attended Retrouvaille. I
cannot recommend it enough as far as saving our marriage. It's a
Catholic church thing, but they do NOT push the religion bit---I mean,
if *I* can attend it, *anyone* can! <g> Retrouvaille got us out of the
pit. Unschooling has allowed us to fly.



~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org





________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

Kathleen Gehrke

--- In [email protected], Pamela Sorooshian
<pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Debbie --
>
> Was that example about the worst thing you could think of? LOTS of
> dads don't "get" the idea of comforting and caring for crying
children
> during the night. Lots of dads don't have that nurturing sense and
> lots seem really unwilling to pay attention to baby's and young
> children's needs. Just saying, it is not uncommon.
>
> Seriously - I really am certain that many people have started from
> situations as bad or worse and made it better, over time.


I wanted to share dh and I spent several years in the midst of our
marriage hovering on the edge of divorce. I did not like the way he
was with the kids. I thought he was critical and not compassionate. I
thought he should try harder, do better. Do I sound a bit critical;]?
I thought he could potentially be endangering to their well
being.Plus I thought he was a jerk.

After being seperated one Christmas and the kids seeing him part of
Christmas Day my daughter then nine said it was the worse Christmas
of her life.

When hubby and I reconcilled things were still not perfect, but I
decided to be happy. I DECIDED TO BE HAPPY> I decided to be the lover
of my children and the lover of my hubby.

FF I am probably more in love with my dh than ever. I am glad my kids
do not have to travel between us. I am glad that it is me he is
married to and not someone else and visa versa.

I still am a bit critical of him also of myself in the parenting
department. I am working on it. He sometimes is not the most
compassionate guy, but sometimes he really is GREAT!

I am not telling you what to do, or advocating one way or the other.
I am just saying for us it got much, much better.

The reasons that Kelly stated were ones that made me choose to stay
and today I am really glad I did.

kathleen

lspswr

> I'm just curious if anyone knows of any husbands/fathers who have
felt they had to treat their wives as another child because she just
wasn't getting what he was trying to accomplish? Or, is it that it's
always going to be the wife/mother/woman in this position since she
is the primary childcare giver during the early years? <

My first thought after reading your question was, "Of course, there
are millions of husbands who feel they have to treat their wives as
another child; just look at the number of overbearing, budget
controlling, domineering, bullying in the name of training
husbands." In my childhood as well as in dh's it most certainly was
that way. That was the expected behavior of the dad and husband.
But on the other hand the "expected" behavior of the mom and wife was
to "obey" the "man of the house" and to live up to his expectations
and demands, while "training" the children to do the same. Yuck!

My goal is to live a different kind of life. I care passionately
about making that change, but dh, not so much yet. He kind of liked
thinking that it was acceptable behavior to be the "King of the
Household" in much the same way that his father did. When I learned
better, I did better. *I* have to be the one to SHOW dh that it DOES
feel better when everyone is respected and valued and given real
validation and choice, and that means treating HIM that way as much
as any child. It's really kind of crazy to think that just because I
found something that I think is "better" that he would
automatically "get it" and make a complete change based on no
personal experience. He really didn't care a lot about what was
going on at home as long as HIS needs were being met. But the thing
is that his needs WEREN'T really being met because I was so resentful
and sarcastic and quick to internally condemn "his selfishness" that
he couldn't possibly feel safe or welcome, loved, or truly part of
the family. The best meal really doesn't taste very good when served
with a big ol' side of resentment.

The thing about this lifestyle is that it's about EVERYBODY'S needs
being met, and balancing that is quite the challenge when you're
learning something that's never been modeled. So when I say that
I "treat dh like another child" what I mean is that I don't expect
him to behave any differently than he always has just because I
decided to change some things. By "treating him like a child" I mean
extending to him the same freedom, support, choice, kindness,
forgiveness, respect and attention that I extend to ds. It's the
backward but same thinking as, "Would I treat dh/friend the way I am
treating my child?" I had some pretty lofty expectations that dh
would behave in the parental and spousal manner that I thought he
should, without showing him why or how. I assumed a lot, and you
know about ass-u-me-ing....

I believe that those who are capable are the ones who
should "lead/show" by example. Right now in this situation I'm the
one who is capable and wants to see the changes. Therefore it IS up
to me to demonstrate WHY I believe this path is one worth walking. I
can encourage or discourage my partner into joining me on this path
by how I choose to treat him. I strive to make it a safe,
fulfilling, and enjoyable experience for all of us. Sometimes it
means stepping back and seeing how far we've come rather than how far
we still have to go. It's not about "being there" but about finding
the good in each and every day. Knowing that we are working
TOWARD "better" and keeping that at my center every day is what
sometimes keeps me going. And it's worth it, especially in being
able to model "better" and striving for harmony for ds.

A lot of people think, "Well what about me? Who is showing me
respect or consideration; who is meeting my needs?" To that I say
that my need for a peaceful and joyful family encompasses most every
other need I have. If my family is FEELING the love they will be
capable of sharing the love. It has to start somewhere, so if it is
to be then it has to start with me. It doesn't come out of thin air,
it's something that has to be created.

Pay it forward,
Linda

[email protected]

This was a lovely post in its entirety, but especially the last two
paragraphs.

Thanks for sharing!

~Kelly

Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org

-----Original Message-----
From: lspswr <lspswr@...>

I believe that those who are capable are the ones who
should "lead/show" by example. Right now in this situation I'm the
one who is capable and wants to see the changes. Therefore it IS up
to me to demonstrate WHY I believe this path is one worth walking. I
can encourage or discourage my partner into joining me on this path
by how I choose to treat him. I strive to make it a safe,
fulfilling, and enjoyable experience for all of us. Sometimes it
means stepping back and seeing how far we've come rather than how far
we still have to go. It's not about "being there" but about finding
the good in each and every day. Knowing that we are working
TOWARD "better" and keeping that at my center every day is what
sometimes keeps me going. And it's worth it, especially in being
able to model "better" and striving for harmony for ds.

A lot of people think, "Well what about me? Who is showing me
respect or consideration; who is meeting my needs?" To that I say
that my need for a peaceful and joyful family encompasses most every
other need I have. If my family is FEELING the love they will be
capable of sharing the love. It has to start somewhere, so if it is
to be then it has to start with me. It doesn't come out of thin air,
it's something that has to be created.

________________________________________________________________________
More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
http://webmail.aol.com

Debbie S.

I want to thank all of you wonderful women for the thoughtful e-mails and
sharing your experiences. You've certainly give me a lot to consider. My
first priority is my daughter. Hopefully, dh and I can work through this
somehow.

Blessings,
Deb. S.

----- Original Message -----
From: <kbcdlovejo@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling through divorce


> This was a lovely post in its entirety, but especially the last two
> paragraphs.
>
> Thanks for sharing!
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lspswr <lspswr@...>
>
> I believe that those who are capable are the ones who
> should "lead/show" by example. Right now in this situation I'm the
> one who is capable and wants to see the changes. Therefore it IS up
> to me to demonstrate WHY I believe this path is one worth walking. I
> can encourage or discourage my partner into joining me on this path
> by how I choose to treat him. I strive to make it a safe,
> fulfilling, and enjoyable experience for all of us. Sometimes it
> means stepping back and seeing how far we've come rather than how far
> we still have to go. It's not about "being there" but about finding
> the good in each and every day. Knowing that we are working
> TOWARD "better" and keeping that at my center every day is what
> sometimes keeps me going. And it's worth it, especially in being
> able to model "better" and striving for harmony for ds.
>
> A lot of people think, "Well what about me? Who is showing me
> respect or consideration; who is meeting my needs?" To that I say
> that my need for a peaceful and joyful family encompasses most every
> other need I have. If my family is FEELING the love they will be
> capable of sharing the love. It has to start somewhere, so if it is
> to be then it has to start with me. It doesn't come out of thin air,
> it's something that has to be created.
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> http://webmail.aol.com
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Karen Swanay

One more thing to consider...

You say your husband is bipolar but you don't mention if he's
medicated. My BIL is bipolar too and I know he had to have a lot of
fine tuning with his meds to get to a comfortable place. Perhaps he
should see his MD or even a holistic practitioner for a "tweek" of his
meds? I know my BIL swears by fish body oil for helping him stay on a
more normal plane.

hth,
Karen

On Feb 20, 2008 10:58 AM, Debbie S. <Glasswitch@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I want to thank all of you wonderful women for the thoughtful e-mails and
> sharing your experiences. You've certainly give me a lot to consider. My
> first priority is my daughter. Hopefully, dh and I can work through this
> somehow.
>
> Blessings,
> Deb. S.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <kbcdlovejo@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling through divorce
>
> > This was a lovely post in its entirety, but especially the last two
> > paragraphs.
> >
> > Thanks for sharing!
> >
> > ~Kelly
> >
> > Kelly Lovejoy
> > Conference Coordinator
> > Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> > http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: lspswr <lspswr@...>
> >
> > I believe that those who are capable are the ones who
> > should "lead/show" by example. Right now in this situation I'm the
> > one who is capable and wants to see the changes. Therefore it IS up
> > to me to demonstrate WHY I believe this path is one worth walking. I
> > can encourage or discourage my partner into joining me on this path
> > by how I choose to treat him. I strive to make it a safe,
> > fulfilling, and enjoyable experience for all of us. Sometimes it
> > means stepping back and seeing how far we've come rather than how far
> > we still have to go. It's not about "being there" but about finding
> > the good in each and every day. Knowing that we are working
> > TOWARD "better" and keeping that at my center every day is what
> > sometimes keeps me going. And it's worth it, especially in being
> > able to model "better" and striving for harmony for ds.
> >
> > A lot of people think, "Well what about me? Who is showing me
> > respect or consideration; who is meeting my needs?" To that I say
> > that my need for a peaceful and joyful family encompasses most every
> > other need I have. If my family is FEELING the love they will be
> > capable of sharing the love. It has to start somewhere, so if it is
> > to be then it has to start with me. It doesn't come out of thin air,
> > it's something that has to be created.
> >
> > __________________________________________________________
> > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
> > http://webmail.aol.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Debbie S.

Yes, he's medicated - sort of... Very long story short - before he was
diagnosed with Leukemia, they had his meds fairly well balanced.
Unfortunately, through our research of causes of this particular type of
leukemia, we found out that the particular med combo he was on has a fairly
high risk of being one of the many causes. Whether the cause is the
combination of drugs or the bipolar predisposing someone to immune issues is
a whole other debate. At this point he uses Prozac and holistic measures to
remain balanced. For the majority of the time it works out well.
More than anything, most of our issues stem from his really crappy
childhood (alcoholism, drugs, physical & mental abuse) and old patterns that
seem to be resolved only to pop up again and again.

Deb. S.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Swanay" <luvbullbreeds@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling through divorce


> One more thing to consider...
>
> You say your husband is bipolar but you don't mention if he's
> medicated. My BIL is bipolar too and I know he had to have a lot of
> fine tuning with his meds to get to a comfortable place. Perhaps he
> should see his MD or even a holistic practitioner for a "tweek" of his
> meds? I know my BIL swears by fish body oil for helping him stay on a
> more normal plane.
>
> hth,
> Karen
>
> On Feb 20, 2008 10:58 AM, Debbie S. <Glasswitch@...> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I want to thank all of you wonderful women for the thoughtful e-mails and
>> sharing your experiences. You've certainly give me a lot to consider. My
>> first priority is my daughter. Hopefully, dh and I can work through this
>> somehow.
>>
>> Blessings,
>> Deb. S.
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <kbcdlovejo@...>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 12:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Re: Unschooling through divorce
>>
>> > This was a lovely post in its entirety, but especially the last two
>> > paragraphs.
>> >
>> > Thanks for sharing!
>> >
>> > ~Kelly
>> >
>> > Kelly Lovejoy
>> > Conference Coordinator
>> > Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
>> > http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: lspswr <lspswr@...>
>> >
>> > I believe that those who are capable are the ones who
>> > should "lead/show" by example. Right now in this situation I'm the
>> > one who is capable and wants to see the changes. Therefore it IS up
>> > to me to demonstrate WHY I believe this path is one worth walking. I
>> > can encourage or discourage my partner into joining me on this path
>> > by how I choose to treat him. I strive to make it a safe,
>> > fulfilling, and enjoyable experience for all of us. Sometimes it
>> > means stepping back and seeing how far we've come rather than how far
>> > we still have to go. It's not about "being there" but about finding
>> > the good in each and every day. Knowing that we are working
>> > TOWARD "better" and keeping that at my center every day is what
>> > sometimes keeps me going. And it's worth it, especially in being
>> > able to model "better" and striving for harmony for ds.
>> >
>> > A lot of people think, "Well what about me? Who is showing me
>> > respect or consideration; who is meeting my needs?" To that I say
>> > that my need for a peaceful and joyful family encompasses most every
>> > other need I have. If my family is FEELING the love they will be
>> > capable of sharing the love. It has to start somewhere, so if it is
>> > to be then it has to start with me. It doesn't come out of thin air,
>> > it's something that has to be created.
>> >
>> > __________________________________________________________
>> > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! -
>> > http://webmail.aol.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>