Re: Unschooling & College (especially to Valerie)
Karen Kahn
Dear Valerie,
Thanks so much for your response on this issue. I've been reading all I can about Unschooling, and as I read book after book (including yours!) about kids who do things like re-wiring their kitchen at age 7, I get more discouraged than inspired. My kids haven't necessarily found any particularly brag-worthy passion yet (other than Yugio and Pokemon memorization skills), so it's sometimes hard to hear about wunderkinds. Not that I'm glad your daughter has any problems, it just reminds me that comparing my kids to anyone is of no value!
Thanks,
Karen
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Thanks so much for your response on this issue. I've been reading all I can about Unschooling, and as I read book after book (including yours!) about kids who do things like re-wiring their kitchen at age 7, I get more discouraged than inspired. My kids haven't necessarily found any particularly brag-worthy passion yet (other than Yugio and Pokemon memorization skills), so it's sometimes hard to hear about wunderkinds. Not that I'm glad your daughter has any problems, it just reminds me that comparing my kids to anyone is of no value!
Thanks,
Karen
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Michelle
Karen:
I have felt the same way about my almost 7 year old son. That he is not one of the "wunderkids". But you would be surprised!! What you feel is just an ordinary everyday thing that your kids do, is something amazing and wonderful to some other parent. My son decided, a few weeks ago, that he wanted a diary. He had seen one while we were out shopping, and we got a notebook at home and he started writing in it. His writing penmanship is not spectacular, and his spelling is very crude. We discussed it and he decided that it would be good for me to rewrite at the bottom of the page what he had written. It mostly has pictures and a sentence on each page. I told this story to a member of a local group we are in, and she was amazed. Told me how advanced my son is. I did not see this. It was just part of our ordinary life, but from her point of view it was really cool. I love our ordinary life. Doing our ordinary things, and truly enjoying living it with my son
Michelle
Karen Kahn <mamarevkk@...> wrote:
Dear Valerie,
Thanks so much for your response on this issue. I've been reading all I can about Unschooling, and as I read book after book (including yours!) about kids who do things like re-wiring their kitchen at age 7, I get more discouraged than inspired. My kids haven't necessarily found any particularly brag-worthy passion yet (other than Yugio and Pokemon memorization skills), so it's sometimes hard to hear about wunderkinds. Not that I'm glad your daughter has any problems, it just reminds me that comparing my kids to anyone is of no value!
Thanks,
Karen
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I have felt the same way about my almost 7 year old son. That he is not one of the "wunderkids". But you would be surprised!! What you feel is just an ordinary everyday thing that your kids do, is something amazing and wonderful to some other parent. My son decided, a few weeks ago, that he wanted a diary. He had seen one while we were out shopping, and we got a notebook at home and he started writing in it. His writing penmanship is not spectacular, and his spelling is very crude. We discussed it and he decided that it would be good for me to rewrite at the bottom of the page what he had written. It mostly has pictures and a sentence on each page. I told this story to a member of a local group we are in, and she was amazed. Told me how advanced my son is. I did not see this. It was just part of our ordinary life, but from her point of view it was really cool. I love our ordinary life. Doing our ordinary things, and truly enjoying living it with my son
Michelle
Karen Kahn <mamarevkk@...> wrote:
Dear Valerie,
Thanks so much for your response on this issue. I've been reading all I can about Unschooling, and as I read book after book (including yours!) about kids who do things like re-wiring their kitchen at age 7, I get more discouraged than inspired. My kids haven't necessarily found any particularly brag-worthy passion yet (other than Yugio and Pokemon memorization skills), so it's sometimes hard to hear about wunderkinds. Not that I'm glad your daughter has any problems, it just reminds me that comparing my kids to anyone is of no value!
Thanks,
Karen
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Valerie
Thank you, Karen.
We're all human, even the 7-year old electrical genius, and we all
have problems. I honestly don't feel that the achievements of our
children are what defines whether or not unschooling is "working" in
our homes. I feel that the harmony within the home is a more
accurate measure.
I feel strongly that "successful" unschooling/parenting depends
mostly on the parents attitude. A positive attitude will mean the
difference between success and failure. (I realize that success and
failure are subjective.) A parent saying, "He just plays games all
day," is seeing unschooling as a failure and maybe it's the parents
own personal doubts getting in the way.
When others would say "he just plays games all day," I'd say, "she's
getting SO good at those games. I wish I could keep up with her,"
and then I'd ask her to play so I could watch. I LOVED watching her
use strategy and beating the bad guy. I especially had a fondness
for Yoshi. <g>
Others saw her as a lazy kid that stayed up all night and slept most
of the day. I saw a kid so interested in what she was doing that
night and day were of no consequence to her schedule. She loved the
quiet time of the night for getting on the computer and/or reading.
I envied her passion for what she was doing and I did eventually
learn to "allow" myself to follow my own passions.
When her father complained that she wasn't helping out enough around
the house and spending too much time on the computer, I was saying
that her time on the computer was her work; she took it very
seriously. Funny now because he doesn't hesitate to phone her and
interrupt her studies or call her at her job so that she can talk
him through fixing something on his computer. When I visited her
last weekend, I realized the irony when I asked her to stop washing
her own dishes and work with me on the computer. She did. After she
helped me, she went back and finished her dishes. (exactly what I
did when she was young)
Parents can choose to see what their children do with a negative or
a positive attitude. The difference will be obvious in the harmony
inside the home. It'll also be obvious when the child becomes an
adult and her attitudes directly reflect on the parent. I was the
positive parent in her childhood and she trusts me 100% with
everything she does. Her father was negative and she's wary of
sharing with him, avoiding it when she can.
btw, I'm not bragging; it saddens me. He has never been able to let
go of trying to control her and therefore she spends much of their
time together making sure he doesn't get too strong a grip on her,
watching what she says so she doesn't reveal things to him that
would cause his controlling side to gear up. If he'd relax they'd
become closer. I must say that she handles him really well, but it
saddens me that she has to.
--- In [email protected], Karen Kahn
<mamarevkk@y...> wrote:
(including yours!) about kids who do things like re-wiring their
kitchen at age 7, I get more discouraged than inspired. My kids
haven't necessarily found any particularly brag-worthy passion yet
(other than Yugio and Pokemon memorization skills), so it's
sometimes hard to hear about wunderkinds. Not that I'm glad your
daughter has any problems, it just reminds me that comparing my kids
to anyone is of no value!
We're all human, even the 7-year old electrical genius, and we all
have problems. I honestly don't feel that the achievements of our
children are what defines whether or not unschooling is "working" in
our homes. I feel that the harmony within the home is a more
accurate measure.
I feel strongly that "successful" unschooling/parenting depends
mostly on the parents attitude. A positive attitude will mean the
difference between success and failure. (I realize that success and
failure are subjective.) A parent saying, "He just plays games all
day," is seeing unschooling as a failure and maybe it's the parents
own personal doubts getting in the way.
When others would say "he just plays games all day," I'd say, "she's
getting SO good at those games. I wish I could keep up with her,"
and then I'd ask her to play so I could watch. I LOVED watching her
use strategy and beating the bad guy. I especially had a fondness
for Yoshi. <g>
Others saw her as a lazy kid that stayed up all night and slept most
of the day. I saw a kid so interested in what she was doing that
night and day were of no consequence to her schedule. She loved the
quiet time of the night for getting on the computer and/or reading.
I envied her passion for what she was doing and I did eventually
learn to "allow" myself to follow my own passions.
When her father complained that she wasn't helping out enough around
the house and spending too much time on the computer, I was saying
that her time on the computer was her work; she took it very
seriously. Funny now because he doesn't hesitate to phone her and
interrupt her studies or call her at her job so that she can talk
him through fixing something on his computer. When I visited her
last weekend, I realized the irony when I asked her to stop washing
her own dishes and work with me on the computer. She did. After she
helped me, she went back and finished her dishes. (exactly what I
did when she was young)
Parents can choose to see what their children do with a negative or
a positive attitude. The difference will be obvious in the harmony
inside the home. It'll also be obvious when the child becomes an
adult and her attitudes directly reflect on the parent. I was the
positive parent in her childhood and she trusts me 100% with
everything she does. Her father was negative and she's wary of
sharing with him, avoiding it when she can.
btw, I'm not bragging; it saddens me. He has never been able to let
go of trying to control her and therefore she spends much of their
time together making sure he doesn't get too strong a grip on her,
watching what she says so she doesn't reveal things to him that
would cause his controlling side to gear up. If he'd relax they'd
become closer. I must say that she handles him really well, but it
saddens me that she has to.
--- In [email protected], Karen Kahn
<mamarevkk@y...> wrote:
>all I can about Unschooling, and as I read book after book
> Dear Valerie,
>
> Thanks so much for your response on this issue. I've been reading
(including yours!) about kids who do things like re-wiring their
kitchen at age 7, I get more discouraged than inspired. My kids
haven't necessarily found any particularly brag-worthy passion yet
(other than Yugio and Pokemon memorization skills), so it's
sometimes hard to hear about wunderkinds. Not that I'm glad your
daughter has any problems, it just reminds me that comparing my kids
to anyone is of no value!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Karen
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ulrike Haupt
Dear Valerie
I love your posts. And the following line I find tremendously soothing.
nights are for doing his thing. Every morning, when we meet, he shows me
what he created during the night: Animations, CAD designs, Cardboard
structures, Paper planes, more Lego Bey Blades, wire cars, music files,
board games, and more and I see the books lying around that he has read in
and I see from the left overs in the pots what he cooked for himself.
The big thing about this: Since we unschooled he has not been sick for a
single day!
I am deeply grateful for having found this list and reading all your
wonderful messages gives encourages me daily to stay with it, even though I
know no-one in the vicinity, who also unschools.
Ulrike
from Namibia
somewhere in Africa
I love your posts. And the following line I find tremendously soothing.
> Others saw her as a lazy kid that stayed up all night and slept mostAlexander (12) has this rhythm or pattern, too. Days are for sleeping and
> of the day. I saw a kid so interested in what she was doing that
> night and day were of no consequence to her schedule. She loved the
> quiet time of the night for getting on the computer and/or reading.
nights are for doing his thing. Every morning, when we meet, he shows me
what he created during the night: Animations, CAD designs, Cardboard
structures, Paper planes, more Lego Bey Blades, wire cars, music files,
board games, and more and I see the books lying around that he has read in
and I see from the left overs in the pots what he cooked for himself.
The big thing about this: Since we unschooled he has not been sick for a
single day!
I am deeply grateful for having found this list and reading all your
wonderful messages gives encourages me daily to stay with it, even though I
know no-one in the vicinity, who also unschools.
Ulrike
from Namibia
somewhere in Africa
Valerie
--- In [email protected], "Ulrike Haupt" <rica@m...>
wrote:
been sick for a single day!
lists that unschooled kids get sick less?
Laurie was never vaccinated for anything and never had a childhood
disease, except for chicken pox - she had ONE tiny unitchy one on
her nose. She never had ear problems either. She did get bronchitis
a few times a year when younger, but I attribute that to all of the
oil refineries here. She was never into dairy products and has
always loved veggies and whole grains.
I ate my veggies when young too, but I HATED school. I was
vaccinated for everything until age 12 when I said NO MORE...but I
had all of the childhood diseases and faked being sick at every
opportunity. <g> I had lots of colds too.
I really think illness is caused by poor diet, but I think just as
much it's caused by emotional stress, therefore unschooled kids get
sick less.
love, Dr Valerie, MD :-P
www.ubpub.com
wrote:
> Dear Valeriesoothing. The big thing about this: Since we unschooled he has not
>
> I love your posts. And the following line I find tremendously
been sick for a single day!
>> Ulrike***** Thank you Ulrike. I wonder if it's ever been brought up on the
> from Namibia
> somewhere in Africa
lists that unschooled kids get sick less?
Laurie was never vaccinated for anything and never had a childhood
disease, except for chicken pox - she had ONE tiny unitchy one on
her nose. She never had ear problems either. She did get bronchitis
a few times a year when younger, but I attribute that to all of the
oil refineries here. She was never into dairy products and has
always loved veggies and whole grains.
I ate my veggies when young too, but I HATED school. I was
vaccinated for everything until age 12 when I said NO MORE...but I
had all of the childhood diseases and faked being sick at every
opportunity. <g> I had lots of colds too.
I really think illness is caused by poor diet, but I think just as
much it's caused by emotional stress, therefore unschooled kids get
sick less.
love, Dr Valerie, MD :-P
www.ubpub.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/19/2004 12:32:10 PM Central Standard Time,
valerie@... writes:
I really think illness is caused by poor diet, but I think just as
much it's caused by emotional stress, therefore unschooled kids get
sick less.
~~~
Genetics have a lot to do with it.
None of my kids get sick very often. The two oldest went to school and had
all the vaccinations. The one who has had the most serious illnesses has
never been to school, and had only a few vaccinations.
My extended family are the hearty-stock type, and dh's extended family live
at the doctor's offices. I can't remember even owning a bottle of aspirin
before I married dh. Now we have *everything*. lol.
Unschooled kids might not get lice as often or the virus that's going around
the schools, but I don't think they're particularly immune because they
don't go to school.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
valerie@... writes:
I really think illness is caused by poor diet, but I think just as
much it's caused by emotional stress, therefore unschooled kids get
sick less.
~~~
Genetics have a lot to do with it.
None of my kids get sick very often. The two oldest went to school and had
all the vaccinations. The one who has had the most serious illnesses has
never been to school, and had only a few vaccinations.
My extended family are the hearty-stock type, and dh's extended family live
at the doctor's offices. I can't remember even owning a bottle of aspirin
before I married dh. Now we have *everything*. lol.
Unschooled kids might not get lice as often or the virus that's going around
the schools, but I don't think they're particularly immune because they
don't go to school.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sherri-Lee Pressman
So I am behind, but saved this to follow up on and here I am.
This is one of a very few posts I have seen when dh's are mentioned at all.
So how do our/your dh's fit in with the unschooling thing? Are they
completely supportive? Sharing in the facilitator role? Does their job
interfere? Do they believe and trust like you do in natural child
development? Do they worry when they see things they think aren't great? Do
they disagree with you about this? Do they agree in theory but not in the
practical sense?
How do they fit in for you?
I will say that my dh is very informed about unschooling, he read Summerhill
in the 70's along with the original Holt books. He acts in a very
unschooling sort of way, doesn't take too much responsibility for other
people's things etc, likes to hear the outcomes.. Yes there is a big huge
BUT hanging there. he seems to flip to the entire other side of it and
become almost tyrannical in his actions with dd sometimes. He is old (51:-))
so perhaps he is conflicted in that he buys some of the older theories of
parenting as well in how kids should behave or act for sure. He believes in
spanking but I have only seen him use that when he is frustrated and just
wants her to do what he wants RIGHT NOW!
And if I happen to feel tired or frustrated and complain after a hard day, I
get "well then change the way she acts!" like I have something to say about
it! LOL. When I reply that I am not the only parent here, he says "she won't
listen to me" which I think is a cop out that allows him to take a position
that theoretically supports what I am doing but is quick to toss it back as
not something he bought into in the first place.
So we have some challenges about this and I am wondering how it works for
the rest of you, oh and of course this is not just sent to Valerie (although
I value her input) but to everyone,
Thanks,
Sherri-LeeHe He
_____
From: Valerie [mailto:valerie@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 7:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] attitudes - response to Karen
Thank you, Karen.
We're all human, even the 7-year old electrical genius, and we all
have problems. I honestly don't feel that the achievements of our
children are what defines whether or not unschooling is "working" in
our homes. I feel that the harmony within the home is a more
accurate measure.
I feel strongly that "successful" unschooling/parenting depends
mostly on the parents attitude. A positive attitude will mean the
difference between success and failure. (I realize that success and
failure are subjective.) A parent saying, "He just plays games all
day," is seeing unschooling as a failure and maybe it's the parents
own personal doubts getting in the way.
When others would say "he just plays games all day," I'd say, "she's
getting SO good at those games. I wish I could keep up with her,"
and then I'd ask her to play so I could watch. I LOVED watching her
use strategy and beating the bad guy. I especially had a fondness
for Yoshi. <g>
Others saw her as a lazy kid that stayed up all night and slept most
of the day. I saw a kid so interested in what she was doing that
night and day were of no consequence to her schedule. She loved the
quiet time of the night for getting on the computer and/or reading.
I envied her passion for what she was doing and I did eventually
learn to "allow" myself to follow my own passions.
When her father complained that she wasn't helping out enough around
the house and spending too much time on the computer, I was saying
that her time on the computer was her work; she took it very
seriously. Funny now because he doesn't hesitate to phone her and
interrupt her studies or call her at her job so that she can talk
him through fixing something on his computer. When I visited her
last weekend, I realized the irony when I asked her to stop washing
her own dishes and work with me on the computer. She did. After she
helped me, she went back and finished her dishes. (exactly what I
did when she was young)
Parents can choose to see what their children do with a negative or
a positive attitude. The difference will be obvious in the harmony
inside the home. It'll also be obvious when the child becomes an
adult and her attitudes directly reflect on the parent. I was the
positive parent in her childhood and she trusts me 100% with
everything she does. Her father was negative and she's wary of
sharing with him, avoiding it when she can.
btw, I'm not bragging; it saddens me. He has never been able to let
go of trying to control her and therefore she spends much of their
time together making sure he doesn't get too strong a grip on her,
watching what she says so she doesn't reveal things to him that
would cause his controlling side to gear up. If he'd relax they'd
become closer. I must say that she handles him really well, but it
saddens me that she has to.
--- In [email protected], Karen Kahn
<mamarevkk@y...> wrote:
(including yours!) about kids who do things like re-wiring their
kitchen at age 7, I get more discouraged than inspired. My kids
haven't necessarily found any particularly brag-worthy passion yet
(other than Yugio and Pokemon memorization skills), so it's
sometimes hard to hear about wunderkinds. Not that I'm glad your
daughter has any problems, it just reminds me that comparing my kids
to anyone is of no value!
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is one of a very few posts I have seen when dh's are mentioned at all.
So how do our/your dh's fit in with the unschooling thing? Are they
completely supportive? Sharing in the facilitator role? Does their job
interfere? Do they believe and trust like you do in natural child
development? Do they worry when they see things they think aren't great? Do
they disagree with you about this? Do they agree in theory but not in the
practical sense?
How do they fit in for you?
I will say that my dh is very informed about unschooling, he read Summerhill
in the 70's along with the original Holt books. He acts in a very
unschooling sort of way, doesn't take too much responsibility for other
people's things etc, likes to hear the outcomes.. Yes there is a big huge
BUT hanging there. he seems to flip to the entire other side of it and
become almost tyrannical in his actions with dd sometimes. He is old (51:-))
so perhaps he is conflicted in that he buys some of the older theories of
parenting as well in how kids should behave or act for sure. He believes in
spanking but I have only seen him use that when he is frustrated and just
wants her to do what he wants RIGHT NOW!
And if I happen to feel tired or frustrated and complain after a hard day, I
get "well then change the way she acts!" like I have something to say about
it! LOL. When I reply that I am not the only parent here, he says "she won't
listen to me" which I think is a cop out that allows him to take a position
that theoretically supports what I am doing but is quick to toss it back as
not something he bought into in the first place.
So we have some challenges about this and I am wondering how it works for
the rest of you, oh and of course this is not just sent to Valerie (although
I value her input) but to everyone,
Thanks,
Sherri-LeeHe He
_____
From: Valerie [mailto:valerie@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2004 7:25 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] attitudes - response to Karen
Thank you, Karen.
We're all human, even the 7-year old electrical genius, and we all
have problems. I honestly don't feel that the achievements of our
children are what defines whether or not unschooling is "working" in
our homes. I feel that the harmony within the home is a more
accurate measure.
I feel strongly that "successful" unschooling/parenting depends
mostly on the parents attitude. A positive attitude will mean the
difference between success and failure. (I realize that success and
failure are subjective.) A parent saying, "He just plays games all
day," is seeing unschooling as a failure and maybe it's the parents
own personal doubts getting in the way.
When others would say "he just plays games all day," I'd say, "she's
getting SO good at those games. I wish I could keep up with her,"
and then I'd ask her to play so I could watch. I LOVED watching her
use strategy and beating the bad guy. I especially had a fondness
for Yoshi. <g>
Others saw her as a lazy kid that stayed up all night and slept most
of the day. I saw a kid so interested in what she was doing that
night and day were of no consequence to her schedule. She loved the
quiet time of the night for getting on the computer and/or reading.
I envied her passion for what she was doing and I did eventually
learn to "allow" myself to follow my own passions.
When her father complained that she wasn't helping out enough around
the house and spending too much time on the computer, I was saying
that her time on the computer was her work; she took it very
seriously. Funny now because he doesn't hesitate to phone her and
interrupt her studies or call her at her job so that she can talk
him through fixing something on his computer. When I visited her
last weekend, I realized the irony when I asked her to stop washing
her own dishes and work with me on the computer. She did. After she
helped me, she went back and finished her dishes. (exactly what I
did when she was young)
Parents can choose to see what their children do with a negative or
a positive attitude. The difference will be obvious in the harmony
inside the home. It'll also be obvious when the child becomes an
adult and her attitudes directly reflect on the parent. I was the
positive parent in her childhood and she trusts me 100% with
everything she does. Her father was negative and she's wary of
sharing with him, avoiding it when she can.
btw, I'm not bragging; it saddens me. He has never been able to let
go of trying to control her and therefore she spends much of their
time together making sure he doesn't get too strong a grip on her,
watching what she says so she doesn't reveal things to him that
would cause his controlling side to gear up. If he'd relax they'd
become closer. I must say that she handles him really well, but it
saddens me that she has to.
--- In [email protected], Karen Kahn
<mamarevkk@y...> wrote:
>all I can about Unschooling, and as I read book after book
> Dear Valerie,
>
> Thanks so much for your response on this issue. I've been reading
(including yours!) about kids who do things like re-wiring their
kitchen at age 7, I get more discouraged than inspired. My kids
haven't necessarily found any particularly brag-worthy passion yet
(other than Yugio and Pokemon memorization skills), so it's
sometimes hard to hear about wunderkinds. Not that I'm glad your
daughter has any problems, it just reminds me that comparing my kids
to anyone is of no value!
>Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> Thanks,
>
> Karen
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Sylvia Toyama
So how do our/your dh's fit in with the unschooling thing? Are they completely supportive? Sharing in the facilitator role? Does their job interfere? Do they believe and trust like you do in natural child development?
*****
Dh, Gary, is very supportive of unschooling. He has been since the beginning of our homeschooling journey. In his case, it's more that he has complete trust in me first, then he comes around later to whatever it is I choose to do with the kids. In large part, that's because our oldest child is actually my son, and since I was a parent 10 yrs longer than Gary, he figures I know more what in that arena than he does. Add to that, I'm an oldest child (he's an only) so he feels much less experienced at it all.
It has made my life easier to have his confidence and support. The only downside is that it leaves me feeling I must be right and not over-extend my position -- wouldn't want to fail miserably and have him not trust my future explorations. Also, to his parents (and other outsiders) it can look like he just lets me do whatever I want, and is uninvolved. Not only does it make me the heavy, it sells him short. He's a great Dad, and really very involved with the boys.
Syl
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*****
Dh, Gary, is very supportive of unschooling. He has been since the beginning of our homeschooling journey. In his case, it's more that he has complete trust in me first, then he comes around later to whatever it is I choose to do with the kids. In large part, that's because our oldest child is actually my son, and since I was a parent 10 yrs longer than Gary, he figures I know more what in that arena than he does. Add to that, I'm an oldest child (he's an only) so he feels much less experienced at it all.
It has made my life easier to have his confidence and support. The only downside is that it leaves me feeling I must be right and not over-extend my position -- wouldn't want to fail miserably and have him not trust my future explorations. Also, to his parents (and other outsiders) it can look like he just lets me do whatever I want, and is uninvolved. Not only does it make me the heavy, it sells him short. He's a great Dad, and really very involved with the boys.
Syl
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]