Re: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/2004 11:35:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
*My* ethical conviction leads me to live my life a certain way. It does
not afford me power to insist others live *their* lives *my* way.
I'm a vegan. <<<<
And when we meet in three weeks, I'll hog-tie you and and force you to eat a
Big Mac! <g>
Just kidding, y'all! She may even convince me to become vegan! <g>
Or not. <g>
But I'll still love her!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ddzimlew@... writes:
*My* ethical conviction leads me to live my life a certain way. It does
not afford me power to insist others live *their* lives *my* way.
I'm a vegan. <<<<
And when we meet in three weeks, I'll hog-tie you and and force you to eat a
Big Mac! <g>
Just kidding, y'all! She may even convince me to become vegan! <g>
Or not. <g>
But I'll still love her!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***And when we meet in three weeks, I'll hog-tie you and and force you to
eat a
Big Mac! <g>***
I've never had a Big Mac! I once heard there's less meat in a Big Mac
than there are bugs in my teeth after a bike ride. <g> Who knows? I
was raised kosher though so I'd still probably have mine without cheese.
<g> Unless you REALLY intend to corrupt me!
Hog-tieing sounds fun though. <g>
***She may even convince me to become vegan! <g>***
I'll have my tracts handy. <G> Pictures of sad cow eyes and brutal red
neckish characters taking pleasure in cow misery. (not a bad idea!) Oh,
dramatic photo's of tied hogs....
***But I'll still love her!***
Ah, we'll be an inspiration to MASH re-runnering, Basenji loving, Will
Smith fans everywhere. <G>
Deb, vegan (for now anyway!) atheist, tractless, first time conference
attendee, intent on stalking Kelly and her Big Mac all weekend...
eat a
Big Mac! <g>***
I've never had a Big Mac! I once heard there's less meat in a Big Mac
than there are bugs in my teeth after a bike ride. <g> Who knows? I
was raised kosher though so I'd still probably have mine without cheese.
<g> Unless you REALLY intend to corrupt me!
Hog-tieing sounds fun though. <g>
***She may even convince me to become vegan! <g>***
I'll have my tracts handy. <G> Pictures of sad cow eyes and brutal red
neckish characters taking pleasure in cow misery. (not a bad idea!) Oh,
dramatic photo's of tied hogs....
***But I'll still love her!***
Ah, we'll be an inspiration to MASH re-runnering, Basenji loving, Will
Smith fans everywhere. <G>
Deb, vegan (for now anyway!) atheist, tractless, first time conference
attendee, intent on stalking Kelly and her Big Mac all weekend...
Dana Matt
> I've never had a Big Mac! I once heard there'sIt just must be the Montana freaks, Deb, because I've
> less meat in a Big Mac
> than there are bugs in my teeth after a bike ride.
> <g> Who knows?
never had a McDonald's burger either. ;)
Dana
in MOntana
__________________________________
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Deb Lewis
***It just must be the Montana freaks, Deb, because I've
never had a McDonald's burger either. ;)***
Well, come to the conference darlin', and be saved by the Reverend
Lovejoy! ; )
Deb
never had a McDonald's burger either. ;)***
Well, come to the conference darlin', and be saved by the Reverend
Lovejoy! ; )
Deb
Dana Matt
Wish I could, but it looks like I'll be moving to
Washington that week! Hooray!!! :D
Dana
soon to be in Bellingham, WA :D
--- Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...> wrote:
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
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Washington that week! Hooray!!! :D
Dana
soon to be in Bellingham, WA :D
--- Deb Lewis <ddzimlew@...> wrote:
> ***It just must be the Montana freaks, Deb, becausehttp://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/0xXolB/TM
> I've
> never had a McDonald's burger either. ;)***
>
> Well, come to the conference darlin', and be saved
> by the Reverend
> Lovejoy! ; )
>
> Deb
>
>
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[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/2004 1:04:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ddzimlew@... writes:
I've never had a Big Mac! I once heard there's less meat in a Big Mac
than there are bugs in my teeth after a bike ride. <g> Who knows? I
was raised kosher though so I'd still probably have mine without cheese.
<g> Unless you REALLY intend to corrupt me! <<<<<
Deb, Deb, Deb, Deb, DEB!
Big Macs don't COME without cheese!
Don't you know the jingle?
Two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, CHEESE!!!!!, pickles, onions,
on a sesame seed bun!
Maybe we ought to take this offlist, honey!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ddzimlew@... writes:
I've never had a Big Mac! I once heard there's less meat in a Big Mac
than there are bugs in my teeth after a bike ride. <g> Who knows? I
was raised kosher though so I'd still probably have mine without cheese.
<g> Unless you REALLY intend to corrupt me! <<<<<
Deb, Deb, Deb, Deb, DEB!
Big Macs don't COME without cheese!
Don't you know the jingle?
Two all-beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, CHEESE!!!!!, pickles, onions,
on a sesame seed bun!
>>>>Hog-tieing sounds fun though. <g><<<<Yeah. I thought you'd like that! <g>
>>>>Deb, vegan (for now anyway!) atheist, tractless, first time conferenceattendee, intent on stalking Kelly and her Big Mac all weekend... <<<<
Maybe we ought to take this offlist, honey!
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/2004 10:11:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
salgenovese@... writes:
Her
response is to tell the child that she feels uncomfortable about him doing
that and while he lives in her house he needs to live by those standards
whether he agrees or not.<<<<
Right. I've heard for 40-some-odd years, "While you're living under MY roof,
in MY house...." in one breath. In the next breath it's, "This house belongs
to ALL of us, so we ALL need to pitch in and help...."
My response is: PICK ONE! You can't have it both ways. Either we all live
here and we all share equally and we all are partners OR it's MY house and MY
rules; Do as *I* say and mive by MY standards."
cook it? How do you respect and honor what is SO important in unschooling,
the choices of the child, while still living with your own strong feelings
and beliefs?
Has anyone else struggled with this type of thing? I'd love to hear the
thoughts of others...<<<<<<<<
I eat veal (Sorry, Deb). Not often, but I love a veal piccata. So how 'bout
I use something we're going through right now?
My 16 year old smokes pot. I never have---I know, I know! Forty-four and has
never smoked pot? I've never even taken a puff of a cigarette! I hate the
idea of smoke in my lungs. It's also illegal----not that I haven't drunk myself
into a stupor in my youth----and that was illegal too, at the time. But I
would have only gotten in trouble for "under-age" drinking. There's no age
minimum for marijuana. Slap on the wrist for drinking. Jailtime for pot. Anyway,
I'm not a fan.
I know. He knows I know. I know he knows I know! <bwg> We talk about it a
lot. Pros and cons----of pot and of drinking (which I still do---just not as
much!). He doesn't care for alcohol. He'll have a half a beer 2-3 times a year.
He'll have a glass of wine sometimes when we do. He doesn't like hard
liquor. ALL these things are available at all times in our house---nothing locked
up.
We talk about driving under the influence of *any* mind-altering substance.
We suggest that he smoke in the garage rather than somewhere else (from where
he'll have to drive home). No smoking in our house! (OHMYGOD! I HAVE A RULE!
<G>) So he has to be outside. The garage is a suitable place----no smoke in
the house, no driving. Acceptable to all parties.
As for the dope itself. Be careful what you buy. Don't buy crap. Buy
organic. Buy from people you know. Be careful and be smart about it! Don't get
caught.
What about our ability to unschool should he get caught???? What about his
younger brother? What about his friends? What about all those stupid
commercials about drugs and mean police-parents?
And what if I banned the stuff and demanded that he not do it? Right---like
all his friends' parents? <G> Uh huh---that stops *them*! ......Not.
The best that I can do is to share my concerns, my fears, my knowledge, and
my experience. He has to make his decisions for himself. He's informed----and
I've learned a few things from him that *I* didn't know!
His decision now is to smoke, but just not as much. It's EXPENSIVE! That's a
real issue!
He's also starting a documentary on hemp. <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
salgenovese@... writes:
Her
response is to tell the child that she feels uncomfortable about him doing
that and while he lives in her house he needs to live by those standards
whether he agrees or not.<<<<
Right. I've heard for 40-some-odd years, "While you're living under MY roof,
in MY house...." in one breath. In the next breath it's, "This house belongs
to ALL of us, so we ALL need to pitch in and help...."
My response is: PICK ONE! You can't have it both ways. Either we all live
here and we all share equally and we all are partners OR it's MY house and MY
rules; Do as *I* say and mive by MY standards."
>>>>How do you handle it if your child asks to eatmeat or veal - especially since you would likely have to purchase it and
cook it? How do you respect and honor what is SO important in unschooling,
the choices of the child, while still living with your own strong feelings
and beliefs?
Has anyone else struggled with this type of thing? I'd love to hear the
thoughts of others...<<<<<<<<
I eat veal (Sorry, Deb). Not often, but I love a veal piccata. So how 'bout
I use something we're going through right now?
My 16 year old smokes pot. I never have---I know, I know! Forty-four and has
never smoked pot? I've never even taken a puff of a cigarette! I hate the
idea of smoke in my lungs. It's also illegal----not that I haven't drunk myself
into a stupor in my youth----and that was illegal too, at the time. But I
would have only gotten in trouble for "under-age" drinking. There's no age
minimum for marijuana. Slap on the wrist for drinking. Jailtime for pot. Anyway,
I'm not a fan.
I know. He knows I know. I know he knows I know! <bwg> We talk about it a
lot. Pros and cons----of pot and of drinking (which I still do---just not as
much!). He doesn't care for alcohol. He'll have a half a beer 2-3 times a year.
He'll have a glass of wine sometimes when we do. He doesn't like hard
liquor. ALL these things are available at all times in our house---nothing locked
up.
We talk about driving under the influence of *any* mind-altering substance.
We suggest that he smoke in the garage rather than somewhere else (from where
he'll have to drive home). No smoking in our house! (OHMYGOD! I HAVE A RULE!
<G>) So he has to be outside. The garage is a suitable place----no smoke in
the house, no driving. Acceptable to all parties.
As for the dope itself. Be careful what you buy. Don't buy crap. Buy
organic. Buy from people you know. Be careful and be smart about it! Don't get
caught.
What about our ability to unschool should he get caught???? What about his
younger brother? What about his friends? What about all those stupid
commercials about drugs and mean police-parents?
And what if I banned the stuff and demanded that he not do it? Right---like
all his friends' parents? <G> Uh huh---that stops *them*! ......Not.
The best that I can do is to share my concerns, my fears, my knowledge, and
my experience. He has to make his decisions for himself. He's informed----and
I've learned a few things from him that *I* didn't know!
His decision now is to smoke, but just not as much. It's EXPENSIVE! That's a
real issue!
He's also starting a documentary on hemp. <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
Kelly,
This isn't really in regards to the pot smoking issue, because I have
personal hang-ups about that one myself. Mostly due to the fact that my
daughter is so much older than my three boys and if I allow it in the house
or any where around the property, I get to do jail time and there is a good
chance that my kids will be taken away as well. I can't/won't take that
risk, because one of my kids decides that smoking Pot is for them. They
shouldn't put the whole family at risk for their need to do something which,
like it or not, is illegal.
Anyway, my issue is smoking. I have 2 friends which started smoking
when they were 10. At 14 they gained the courage to ask their parents for
permission which their parents gave them. I also started smoking at 10, but
never gained that courage. I see those two friends as being highly addicted
to cigarettes to this day. They find it impossible to quit. I quit seven
years ago. Both of these friends say they wish their parents wouldn't have
given them permission. Their theory is that they wouldn't have smoked as
much if they had to hide it from their parents and maybe, just maybe, they
wouldn't need it so much now. I think about my experience quitting and it
WAS quite easy because there were only a few times a day when I wanted to
smoke.
I totally agree with giving our children the opportunity to make their
own decisions and live their life freely, but I guess I have come to
appreciate my parents rule about not smoking. Sometimes I find myself
thinking that it's not so bad to have an unpopular decision. Maybe my kids
might be mad about it in the immediate moment, but later they may just
appreciate it. Does any one else feel this way?
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
In a message dated 8/6/2004 10:11:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
salgenovese@... writes:
Her
response is to tell the child that she feels uncomfortable about him
doing
that and while he lives in her house he needs to live by those standards
whether he agrees or not.<<<<
Right. I've heard for 40-some-odd years, "While you're living under MY
roof,
in MY house...." in one breath. In the next breath it's, "This house
belongs
to ALL of us, so we ALL need to pitch in and help...."
My response is: PICK ONE! You can't have it both ways. Either we all live
here and we all share equally and we all are partners OR it's MY house and
MY
rules; Do as *I* say and mive by MY standards."
cook it? How do you respect and honor what is SO important in
unschooling,
the choices of the child, while still living with your own strong
feelings
and beliefs?
Has anyone else struggled with this type of thing? I'd love to hear the
thoughts of others...<<<<<<<<
I eat veal (Sorry, Deb). Not often, but I love a veal piccata. So how
'bout
I use something we're going through right now?
My 16 year old smokes pot. I never have---I know, I know! Forty-four and
has
never smoked pot? I've never even taken a puff of a cigarette! I hate the
idea of smoke in my lungs. It's also illegal----not that I haven't drunk
myself
into a stupor in my youth----and that was illegal too, at the time. But I
would have only gotten in trouble for "under-age" drinking. There's no
age
minimum for marijuana. Slap on the wrist for drinking. Jailtime for pot.
Anyway,
I'm not a fan.
I know. He knows I know. I know he knows I know! <bwg> We talk about it a
lot. Pros and cons----of pot and of drinking (which I still do---just not
as
much!). He doesn't care for alcohol. He'll have a half a beer 2-3 times a
year.
He'll have a glass of wine sometimes when we do. He doesn't like hard
liquor. ALL these things are available at all times in our
house---nothing locked
up.
We talk about driving under the influence of *any* mind-altering
substance.
We suggest that he smoke in the garage rather than somewhere else (from
where
he'll have to drive home). No smoking in our house! (OHMYGOD! I HAVE A
RULE!
<G>) So he has to be outside. The garage is a suitable place----no smoke
in
the house, no driving. Acceptable to all parties.
As for the dope itself. Be careful what you buy. Don't buy crap. Buy
organic. Buy from people you know. Be careful and be smart about it! Don't
get
caught.
What about our ability to unschool should he get caught???? What about his
younger brother? What about his friends? What about all those stupid
commercials about drugs and mean police-parents?
And what if I banned the stuff and demanded that he not do it?
Right---like
all his friends' parents? <G> Uh huh---that stops *them*! ......Not.
The best that I can do is to share my concerns, my fears, my knowledge,
and
my experience. He has to make his decisions for himself. He's
informed----and
I've learned a few things from him that *I* didn't know!
His decision now is to smoke, but just not as much. It's EXPENSIVE! That's
a
real issue!
He's also starting a documentary on hemp. <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
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--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This isn't really in regards to the pot smoking issue, because I have
personal hang-ups about that one myself. Mostly due to the fact that my
daughter is so much older than my three boys and if I allow it in the house
or any where around the property, I get to do jail time and there is a good
chance that my kids will be taken away as well. I can't/won't take that
risk, because one of my kids decides that smoking Pot is for them. They
shouldn't put the whole family at risk for their need to do something which,
like it or not, is illegal.
Anyway, my issue is smoking. I have 2 friends which started smoking
when they were 10. At 14 they gained the courage to ask their parents for
permission which their parents gave them. I also started smoking at 10, but
never gained that courage. I see those two friends as being highly addicted
to cigarettes to this day. They find it impossible to quit. I quit seven
years ago. Both of these friends say they wish their parents wouldn't have
given them permission. Their theory is that they wouldn't have smoked as
much if they had to hide it from their parents and maybe, just maybe, they
wouldn't need it so much now. I think about my experience quitting and it
WAS quite easy because there were only a few times a day when I wanted to
smoke.
I totally agree with giving our children the opportunity to make their
own decisions and live their life freely, but I guess I have come to
appreciate my parents rule about not smoking. Sometimes I find myself
thinking that it's not so bad to have an unpopular decision. Maybe my kids
might be mad about it in the immediate moment, but later they may just
appreciate it. Does any one else feel this way?
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
In a message dated 8/6/2004 10:11:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
salgenovese@... writes:
Her
response is to tell the child that she feels uncomfortable about him
doing
that and while he lives in her house he needs to live by those standards
whether he agrees or not.<<<<
Right. I've heard for 40-some-odd years, "While you're living under MY
roof,
in MY house...." in one breath. In the next breath it's, "This house
belongs
to ALL of us, so we ALL need to pitch in and help...."
My response is: PICK ONE! You can't have it both ways. Either we all live
here and we all share equally and we all are partners OR it's MY house and
MY
rules; Do as *I* say and mive by MY standards."
>>>>How do you handle it if your child asks to eatmeat or veal - especially since you would likely have to purchase it and
cook it? How do you respect and honor what is SO important in
unschooling,
the choices of the child, while still living with your own strong
feelings
and beliefs?
Has anyone else struggled with this type of thing? I'd love to hear the
thoughts of others...<<<<<<<<
I eat veal (Sorry, Deb). Not often, but I love a veal piccata. So how
'bout
I use something we're going through right now?
My 16 year old smokes pot. I never have---I know, I know! Forty-four and
has
never smoked pot? I've never even taken a puff of a cigarette! I hate the
idea of smoke in my lungs. It's also illegal----not that I haven't drunk
myself
into a stupor in my youth----and that was illegal too, at the time. But I
would have only gotten in trouble for "under-age" drinking. There's no
age
minimum for marijuana. Slap on the wrist for drinking. Jailtime for pot.
Anyway,
I'm not a fan.
I know. He knows I know. I know he knows I know! <bwg> We talk about it a
lot. Pros and cons----of pot and of drinking (which I still do---just not
as
much!). He doesn't care for alcohol. He'll have a half a beer 2-3 times a
year.
He'll have a glass of wine sometimes when we do. He doesn't like hard
liquor. ALL these things are available at all times in our
house---nothing locked
up.
We talk about driving under the influence of *any* mind-altering
substance.
We suggest that he smoke in the garage rather than somewhere else (from
where
he'll have to drive home). No smoking in our house! (OHMYGOD! I HAVE A
RULE!
<G>) So he has to be outside. The garage is a suitable place----no smoke
in
the house, no driving. Acceptable to all parties.
As for the dope itself. Be careful what you buy. Don't buy crap. Buy
organic. Buy from people you know. Be careful and be smart about it! Don't
get
caught.
What about our ability to unschool should he get caught???? What about his
younger brother? What about his friends? What about all those stupid
commercials about drugs and mean police-parents?
And what if I banned the stuff and demanded that he not do it?
Right---like
all his friends' parents? <G> Uh huh---that stops *them*! ......Not.
The best that I can do is to share my concerns, my fears, my knowledge,
and
my experience. He has to make his decisions for himself. He's
informed----and
I've learned a few things from him that *I* didn't know!
His decision now is to smoke, but just not as much. It's EXPENSIVE! That's
a
real issue!
He's also starting a documentary on hemp. <g>
~Kelly
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unschoolingbasics/
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
April M
I love this conversation and I'll chime in here....in regards to the smoking
issue. No, I would not allow my kids to smoke in the house or my vehical. I
don't allow anyone to. I dislike how it smells and don't want it in the
house. We have the added issue of two family members are allergic to the
smoke, but it would be the same even if they weren't. My mother and my
sister smoke and they go outside to smoke at my house. If my kids wanted to
smoke, I wouldn't forbid it but it would have to be outside and I wouldn't
buy their cigaretts for them. They wouldn't be 'in trouble', but I wouldn't
change our house rules for them. As far as the illegal drugs, I would hope
for open dialogue, but I wouldn't want it to happen at the house....for the
same legal reasons mentioned earlier. So far, there isn't any interest in
any of these activties (but never fear, other issues abound in regards to
our values and our kids' choices!).
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-8.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"It must be remembered that the purpose of education is not to fill the
minds of students with facts... it is to teach them to think." ~~ Robert
Hutchins
-----Original Message-----
From: G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
[mailto:gmcontractinginc@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 8:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
Kelly,
This isn't really in regards to the pot smoking issue, because I have
personal hang-ups about that one myself. Mostly due to the fact that my
daughter is so much older than my three boys and if I allow it in the
house
or any where around the property, I get to do jail time and there is a
good
chance that my kids will be taken away as well. I can't/won't take that
risk, because one of my kids decides that smoking Pot is for them. They
shouldn't put the whole family at risk for their need to do something
which,
like it or not, is illegal.
Anyway, my issue is smoking. I have 2 friends which started smoking
when they were 10. At 14 they gained the courage to ask their parents for
permission which their parents gave them. I also started smoking at 10,
but
never gained that courage. I see those two friends as being highly
addicted
to cigarettes to this day. They find it impossible to quit. I quit seven
years ago. Both of these friends say they wish their parents wouldn't
have
given them permission. Their theory is that they wouldn't have smoked as
much if they had to hide it from their parents and maybe, just maybe, they
wouldn't need it so much now. I think about my experience quitting and
it
WAS quite easy because there were only a few times a day when I wanted to
smoke.
I totally agree with giving our children the opportunity to make their
own decisions and live their life freely, but I guess I have come to
appreciate my parents rule about not smoking. Sometimes I find myself
thinking that it's not so bad to have an unpopular decision. Maybe my
kids
might be mad about it in the immediate moment, but later they may just
appreciate it. Does any one else feel this way?
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
In a message dated 8/6/2004 10:11:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
salgenovese@... writes:
Her
response is to tell the child that she feels uncomfortable about him
doing
that and while he lives in her house he needs to live by those
standards
whether he agrees or not.<<<<
Right. I've heard for 40-some-odd years, "While you're living under MY
roof,
in MY house...." in one breath. In the next breath it's, "This house
belongs
to ALL of us, so we ALL need to pitch in and help...."
My response is: PICK ONE! You can't have it both ways. Either we all
live
here and we all share equally and we all are partners OR it's MY house
and
MY
rules; Do as *I* say and mive by MY standards."
and
cook it? How do you respect and honor what is SO important in
unschooling,
the choices of the child, while still living with your own strong
feelings
and beliefs?
Has anyone else struggled with this type of thing? I'd love to hear
the
thoughts of others...<<<<<<<<
I eat veal (Sorry, Deb). Not often, but I love a veal piccata. So how
'bout
I use something we're going through right now?
My 16 year old smokes pot. I never have---I know, I know! Forty-four and
has
never smoked pot? I've never even taken a puff of a cigarette! I hate
the
idea of smoke in my lungs. It's also illegal----not that I haven't drunk
myself
into a stupor in my youth----and that was illegal too, at the time. But
I
would have only gotten in trouble for "under-age" drinking. There's no
age
minimum for marijuana. Slap on the wrist for drinking. Jailtime for
pot.
Anyway,
I'm not a fan.
I know. He knows I know. I know he knows I know! <bwg> We talk about it
a
lot. Pros and cons----of pot and of drinking (which I still do---just
not
as
much!). He doesn't care for alcohol. He'll have a half a beer 2-3 times
a
year.
He'll have a glass of wine sometimes when we do. He doesn't like hard
liquor. ALL these things are available at all times in our
house---nothing locked
up.
We talk about driving under the influence of *any* mind-altering
substance.
We suggest that he smoke in the garage rather than somewhere else (from
where
he'll have to drive home). No smoking in our house! (OHMYGOD! I HAVE A
RULE!
<G>) So he has to be outside. The garage is a suitable place----no smoke
in
the house, no driving. Acceptable to all parties.
As for the dope itself. Be careful what you buy. Don't buy crap. Buy
organic. Buy from people you know. Be careful and be smart about it!
Don't
get
caught.
What about our ability to unschool should he get caught???? What about
his
younger brother? What about his friends? What about all those stupid
commercials about drugs and mean police-parents?
And what if I banned the stuff and demanded that he not do it?
Right---like
all his friends' parents? <G> Uh huh---that stops *them*! ......Not.
The best that I can do is to share my concerns, my fears, my knowledge,
and
my experience. He has to make his decisions for himself. He's
informed----and
I've learned a few things from him that *I* didn't know!
His decision now is to smoke, but just not as much. It's EXPENSIVE!
That's
a
real issue!
He's also starting a documentary on hemp. <g>
~Kelly
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issue. No, I would not allow my kids to smoke in the house or my vehical. I
don't allow anyone to. I dislike how it smells and don't want it in the
house. We have the added issue of two family members are allergic to the
smoke, but it would be the same even if they weren't. My mother and my
sister smoke and they go outside to smoke at my house. If my kids wanted to
smoke, I wouldn't forbid it but it would have to be outside and I wouldn't
buy their cigaretts for them. They wouldn't be 'in trouble', but I wouldn't
change our house rules for them. As far as the illegal drugs, I would hope
for open dialogue, but I wouldn't want it to happen at the house....for the
same legal reasons mentioned earlier. So far, there isn't any interest in
any of these activties (but never fear, other issues abound in regards to
our values and our kids' choices!).
~April
Mom to Kate-18, Lisa-15, Karl-13, & Ben-8.
*REACH Homeschool Group, an inclusive group meeting throughout Oakland
County.. http://www.homeschoolingonashoestring.com/REACH_home.html
*Michigan Youth Theater...Acting On Our Dreams...
<http://www.michiganyouththeater.org/>
"It must be remembered that the purpose of education is not to fill the
minds of students with facts... it is to teach them to think." ~~ Robert
Hutchins
-----Original Message-----
From: G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
[mailto:gmcontractinginc@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 8:52 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
Kelly,
This isn't really in regards to the pot smoking issue, because I have
personal hang-ups about that one myself. Mostly due to the fact that my
daughter is so much older than my three boys and if I allow it in the
house
or any where around the property, I get to do jail time and there is a
good
chance that my kids will be taken away as well. I can't/won't take that
risk, because one of my kids decides that smoking Pot is for them. They
shouldn't put the whole family at risk for their need to do something
which,
like it or not, is illegal.
Anyway, my issue is smoking. I have 2 friends which started smoking
when they were 10. At 14 they gained the courage to ask their parents for
permission which their parents gave them. I also started smoking at 10,
but
never gained that courage. I see those two friends as being highly
addicted
to cigarettes to this day. They find it impossible to quit. I quit seven
years ago. Both of these friends say they wish their parents wouldn't
have
given them permission. Their theory is that they wouldn't have smoked as
much if they had to hide it from their parents and maybe, just maybe, they
wouldn't need it so much now. I think about my experience quitting and
it
WAS quite easy because there were only a few times a day when I wanted to
smoke.
I totally agree with giving our children the opportunity to make their
own decisions and live their life freely, but I guess I have come to
appreciate my parents rule about not smoking. Sometimes I find myself
thinking that it's not so bad to have an unpopular decision. Maybe my
kids
might be mad about it in the immediate moment, but later they may just
appreciate it. Does any one else feel this way?
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: kbcdlovejo@... [mailto:kbcdlovejo@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 12:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
In a message dated 8/6/2004 10:11:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
salgenovese@... writes:
Her
response is to tell the child that she feels uncomfortable about him
doing
that and while he lives in her house he needs to live by those
standards
whether he agrees or not.<<<<
Right. I've heard for 40-some-odd years, "While you're living under MY
roof,
in MY house...." in one breath. In the next breath it's, "This house
belongs
to ALL of us, so we ALL need to pitch in and help...."
My response is: PICK ONE! You can't have it both ways. Either we all
live
here and we all share equally and we all are partners OR it's MY house
and
MY
rules; Do as *I* say and mive by MY standards."
>>>>How do you handle it if your child asks to eatmeat or veal - especially since you would likely have to purchase it
and
cook it? How do you respect and honor what is SO important in
unschooling,
the choices of the child, while still living with your own strong
feelings
and beliefs?
Has anyone else struggled with this type of thing? I'd love to hear
the
thoughts of others...<<<<<<<<
I eat veal (Sorry, Deb). Not often, but I love a veal piccata. So how
'bout
I use something we're going through right now?
My 16 year old smokes pot. I never have---I know, I know! Forty-four and
has
never smoked pot? I've never even taken a puff of a cigarette! I hate
the
idea of smoke in my lungs. It's also illegal----not that I haven't drunk
myself
into a stupor in my youth----and that was illegal too, at the time. But
I
would have only gotten in trouble for "under-age" drinking. There's no
age
minimum for marijuana. Slap on the wrist for drinking. Jailtime for
pot.
Anyway,
I'm not a fan.
I know. He knows I know. I know he knows I know! <bwg> We talk about it
a
lot. Pros and cons----of pot and of drinking (which I still do---just
not
as
much!). He doesn't care for alcohol. He'll have a half a beer 2-3 times
a
year.
He'll have a glass of wine sometimes when we do. He doesn't like hard
liquor. ALL these things are available at all times in our
house---nothing locked
up.
We talk about driving under the influence of *any* mind-altering
substance.
We suggest that he smoke in the garage rather than somewhere else (from
where
he'll have to drive home). No smoking in our house! (OHMYGOD! I HAVE A
RULE!
<G>) So he has to be outside. The garage is a suitable place----no smoke
in
the house, no driving. Acceptable to all parties.
As for the dope itself. Be careful what you buy. Don't buy crap. Buy
organic. Buy from people you know. Be careful and be smart about it!
Don't
get
caught.
What about our ability to unschool should he get caught???? What about
his
younger brother? What about his friends? What about all those stupid
commercials about drugs and mean police-parents?
And what if I banned the stuff and demanded that he not do it?
Right---like
all his friends' parents? <G> Uh huh---that stops *them*! ......Not.
The best that I can do is to share my concerns, my fears, my knowledge,
and
my experience. He has to make his decisions for himself. He's
informed----and
I've learned a few things from him that *I* didn't know!
His decision now is to smoke, but just not as much. It's EXPENSIVE!
That's
a
real issue!
He's also starting a documentary on hemp. <g>
~Kelly
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robyn Coburn
<<<< Anyway, my issue is smoking. I have 2 friends which started smoking
when they were 10. At 14 they gained the courage to ask their parents for
permission which their parents gave them. I also started smoking at 10, but
never gained that courage. I see those two friends as being highly addicted
to cigarettes to this day. They find it impossible to quit. I quit seven
years ago. Both of these friends say they wish their parents wouldn't have
given them permission. Their theory is that they wouldn't have smoked as
much if they had to hide it from their parents and maybe, just maybe, they
wouldn't need it so much now. >>>>
Were they Unschoolers?
Nice theory but I'm betting it is nonsense - otherwise there just wouldn't
be so many smokers who tell tales of starting young. Cigarettes are supposed
to be hard to quit, even after only a little smoking -they make them that
way! Besides a survey base of three individuals doesn't mean much
statistically.
<<<I think about my experience quitting and it
WAS quite easy because there were only a few times a day when I wanted to
smoke.>>>>
Lucky genetics if you felt it was easy. My mother quit after 20+ years
without one single craving. I quit after about 10 not consecutive years,
with a few days of discomfort. I didn't start until I was in my 20's.
My dh was a *heavy* smoker for his adult life, starting sneaking as a teen -
he quit using Zyban (a prescription medicine), after several cold turkey
attempts. Perhaps that would help your friends, IF they really do want to
stop.
<<<I totally agree with giving our children the opportunity to make their
own decisions and live their life freely, but I guess I have come to
appreciate my parents rule about not smoking. Sometimes I find myself
thinking that it's not so bad to have an unpopular decision. Maybe my kids
might be mad about it in the immediate moment, but later they may just
appreciate it. Does any one else feel this way? >>>
Too many "maybes". They *might* continue to feel secretly resentful forever.
I hope Jayn gets to express her angry feelings without me ever saying,
"You'll thank me for this later". It's right up there with "This hurts me
more than it hurts you".
There are plenty real situations where anyone in the family has to live with
a disappointing outcome or decision - for real reasons like budget, time,
where we live, how tall we have grown, still being too short.
The point is not about having to make unpopular decisions at times. The
point is creating a lifestyle and environment where children get the support
they need to make real decisions as much as is possible, some of which might
be different from the ones that an adult would make on their behalf. The
support could include information, the adults' opinion or experiences,
saying "I support whatever choice you make" and a nice hug. Sometimes the
support could include silence. Sometimes it includes money.
The support could include past experience of their folks not holding it
against them or saying "I told you so" (in *any* manner) when some of those
choices crap out. People making free and thoughtful choices, with reasoning
behind them that is not colored by any need to rebel or assert personal
autonomy in secret, can see that they made a mistake without parents
necessarily pointing it out to them.
This last thing is something I see a lot, and really work hard to avoid in
myself. Statement parent feel compelled to make like: "I warned you it was
slippery and that you might fall", "I told you that wouldn't work", "You
should have done it this way", "Next time you should...", or (my personal
favorite) "Oh look what happened...the bag fell over" even while the kid is
picking it up again. AArgghhhh!!!
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004
when they were 10. At 14 they gained the courage to ask their parents for
permission which their parents gave them. I also started smoking at 10, but
never gained that courage. I see those two friends as being highly addicted
to cigarettes to this day. They find it impossible to quit. I quit seven
years ago. Both of these friends say they wish their parents wouldn't have
given them permission. Their theory is that they wouldn't have smoked as
much if they had to hide it from their parents and maybe, just maybe, they
wouldn't need it so much now. >>>>
Were they Unschoolers?
Nice theory but I'm betting it is nonsense - otherwise there just wouldn't
be so many smokers who tell tales of starting young. Cigarettes are supposed
to be hard to quit, even after only a little smoking -they make them that
way! Besides a survey base of three individuals doesn't mean much
statistically.
<<<I think about my experience quitting and it
WAS quite easy because there were only a few times a day when I wanted to
smoke.>>>>
Lucky genetics if you felt it was easy. My mother quit after 20+ years
without one single craving. I quit after about 10 not consecutive years,
with a few days of discomfort. I didn't start until I was in my 20's.
My dh was a *heavy* smoker for his adult life, starting sneaking as a teen -
he quit using Zyban (a prescription medicine), after several cold turkey
attempts. Perhaps that would help your friends, IF they really do want to
stop.
<<<I totally agree with giving our children the opportunity to make their
own decisions and live their life freely, but I guess I have come to
appreciate my parents rule about not smoking. Sometimes I find myself
thinking that it's not so bad to have an unpopular decision. Maybe my kids
might be mad about it in the immediate moment, but later they may just
appreciate it. Does any one else feel this way? >>>
Too many "maybes". They *might* continue to feel secretly resentful forever.
I hope Jayn gets to express her angry feelings without me ever saying,
"You'll thank me for this later". It's right up there with "This hurts me
more than it hurts you".
There are plenty real situations where anyone in the family has to live with
a disappointing outcome or decision - for real reasons like budget, time,
where we live, how tall we have grown, still being too short.
The point is not about having to make unpopular decisions at times. The
point is creating a lifestyle and environment where children get the support
they need to make real decisions as much as is possible, some of which might
be different from the ones that an adult would make on their behalf. The
support could include information, the adults' opinion or experiences,
saying "I support whatever choice you make" and a nice hug. Sometimes the
support could include silence. Sometimes it includes money.
The support could include past experience of their folks not holding it
against them or saying "I told you so" (in *any* manner) when some of those
choices crap out. People making free and thoughtful choices, with reasoning
behind them that is not colored by any need to rebel or assert personal
autonomy in secret, can see that they made a mistake without parents
necessarily pointing it out to them.
This last thing is something I see a lot, and really work hard to avoid in
myself. Statement parent feel compelled to make like: "I warned you it was
slippery and that you might fall", "I told you that wouldn't work", "You
should have done it this way", "Next time you should...", or (my personal
favorite) "Oh look what happened...the bag fell over" even while the kid is
picking it up again. AArgghhhh!!!
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004
Jon and Rue Kream
>>Their theory is that they wouldn't have smoked asmuch if they had to hide it from their parents and maybe, just maybe, they
wouldn't need it so much now.
**I smoked a pack and a half a day and my parents had no idea. (I was just
wondering recently how on earth they didn't smell it on me.) Cigarettes are
made to be addictive. You can be just as addicted smoking 10 a day as 30.
As far as quitting, I highly recommend Wellbutrin. I completely stopped
craving cigarettes within 2 or 3 weeks and have never had the urge to smoke
again. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/6/2004 9:36:27 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
I'm a vegan. <<<<
And when we meet in three weeks, I'll hog-tie you and and force you to eat a
Big Mac! <g>
*********************
It's okay, Deb. Julian will protect you.
Kathryn
Come to the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference August 27-29 in Peabody, MA!
For more information, go to www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected] writes:
I'm a vegan. <<<<
And when we meet in three weeks, I'll hog-tie you and and force you to eat a
Big Mac! <g>
*********************
It's okay, Deb. Julian will protect you.
Kathryn
Come to the Live and Learn Unschooling Conference August 27-29 in Peabody, MA!
For more information, go to www.LiveandLearnConference.org
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
>>>Nice theory but I'm betting it is nonsense - otherwise there justwouldn't
be so many smokers who tell tales of starting young. Cigarettes are supposed
to be hard to quit, even after only a little smoking -they make them that
way! Besides a survey base of three individuals doesn't mean much
statistically.>>>
Robyn,
So what you're saying is that my life experience with this issue doesn't
really matter? You "sound" very offended by my observations. Who are you,
exactly to tell me that my observations are nonsense and that they don't
mean much. As far as statistically goes I thought Unschoolers were anti
statistics anyway. I am willing to bet though that if they did such studies
that you would find that people who smoked a pack and 1/2 of cigarettes a
day would have a tougher time quitting than those that smoked 1/2 a pack a
day.
I have a nagging question. Why is it that, for the most part, I hear a
lot about how terrible our parents were and that their decisions in regards
to raising us were all wrong? There seems to be soooo much negativity with
our upbringing. Believe me I had a horrific childhood, but I refuse to let
it cloud my every judgment and action. I have definitely learned from my
parents mistakes, but I would be a fool to say that every decision they made
was wrong. I think very few of you can say that EVERYTHING, every moment
was just unbearable. I do believe that some of the things they did was
because they loved me and didn't want me to get hurt. I can look back on
that now and see what they wanted for me. I have chosen a different path
for my children; a different way to parent; to live my life. I'm not doing
it to somehow prove to my parents that they were wrong in their choices.
Maybe I'm reading too much in to your post, but I'm really offended that
you could just blow off my opinion in such a manner. If I wanted to be
blown off I would go back to school.
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Robyn Coburn [mailto:dezigna@...]
Sent: Saturday, August 07, 2004 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
<<<< Anyway, my issue is smoking. I have 2 friends which started smoking
when they were 10. At 14 they gained the courage to ask their parents for
permission which their parents gave them. I also started smoking at 10, but
never gained that courage. I see those two friends as being highly addicted
to cigarettes to this day. They find it impossible to quit. I quit seven
years ago. Both of these friends say they wish their parents wouldn't have
given them permission. Their theory is that they wouldn't have smoked as
much if they had to hide it from their parents and maybe, just maybe, they
wouldn't need it so much now. >>>>
Were they Unschoolers?
Nice theory but I'm betting it is nonsense - otherwise there just wouldn't
be so many smokers who tell tales of starting young. Cigarettes are supposed
to be hard to quit, even after only a little smoking -they make them that
way! Besides a survey base of three individuals doesn't mean much
statistically.
<<<I think about my experience quitting and it
WAS quite easy because there were only a few times a day when I wanted to
smoke.>>>>
Lucky genetics if you felt it was easy. My mother quit after 20+ years
without one single craving. I quit after about 10 not consecutive years,
with a few days of discomfort. I didn't start until I was in my 20's.
My dh was a *heavy* smoker for his adult life, starting sneaking as a teen -
he quit using Zyban (a prescription medicine), after several cold turkey
attempts. Perhaps that would help your friends, IF they really do want to
stop.
<<<I totally agree with giving our children the opportunity to make their
own decisions and live their life freely, but I guess I have come to
appreciate my parents rule about not smoking. Sometimes I find myself
thinking that it's not so bad to have an unpopular decision. Maybe my kids
might be mad about it in the immediate moment, but later they may just
appreciate it. Does any one else feel this way? >>>
Too many "maybes". They *might* continue to feel secretly resentful forever.
I hope Jayn gets to express her angry feelings without me ever saying,
"You'll thank me for this later". It's right up there with "This hurts me
more than it hurts you".
There are plenty real situations where anyone in the family has to live with
a disappointing outcome or decision - for real reasons like budget, time,
where we live, how tall we have grown, still being too short.
The point is not about having to make unpopular decisions at times. The
point is creating a lifestyle and environment where children get the support
they need to make real decisions as much as is possible, some of which might
be different from the ones that an adult would make on their behalf. The
support could include information, the adults' opinion or experiences,
saying "I support whatever choice you make" and a nice hug. Sometimes the
support could include silence. Sometimes it includes money.
The support could include past experience of their folks not holding it
against them or saying "I told you so" (in *any* manner) when some of those
choices crap out. People making free and thoughtful choices, with reasoning
behind them that is not colored by any need to rebel or assert personal
autonomy in secret, can see that they made a mistake without parents
necessarily pointing it out to them.
This last thing is something I see a lot, and really work hard to avoid in
myself. Statement parent feel compelled to make like: "I warned you it was
slippery and that you might fall", "I told you that wouldn't work", "You
should have done it this way", "Next time you should...", or (my personal
favorite) "Oh look what happened...the bag fell over" even while the kid is
picking it up again. AArgghhhh!!!
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004
Yahoo! Groups Links
Robyn Coburn
<<<<So what you're saying is that my life experience with this issue
doesn't really matter? You "sound" very offended by my observations. Who
are you, exactly to tell me that my observations are nonsense and that they
don't mean much.>>>>
I'm saying that one person's experience, or two other people's opposite
experience, is not necessarily typical, or universal, or enough information
to base an Unschooling principle upon - although it might be!
I was referring to the theory you told us *your friends* developed,
apparently based entirely on their specific experience in contrast to yours,
that if only they had been controlled more by their parents they would not
have smoked so much. One idea behind it that could worth discussing for
Unschoolers is what happens when parents are controlling, and children feel
the need to act secretively.
<<<As far as statistically goes I thought Unschoolers were anti
statistics anyway.>>>
Did you? My experience on this and other Unschooling lists is that when
people cite studies or statistics, other list members ask penetrating
questions and ask people to quote their sources. Another question that
people ask a lot is whether the children referred to in studies were
Unschooled or Schooled, as this makes the biggest difference in comparing to
our collective experiences with any particular study results.
Many people come to these lists and talk about their personal experiences
with their own children with words like "If I didn't make him stop my son
would just do nothing but play video games all day".
If people's personal experience is only of controlling or only of schools or
only of having to hide things they wanted to do from their parents, they
come to specific conclusions about how the world works. When people come to
these lists they get the combined experience of many others who are doing
things a different way, and have different conclusions.
<<<I have a nagging question. Why is it that, for the most part, I hear a
lot about how terrible our parents were and that their decisions in regards
to raising us were all wrong? There seems to be soooo much negativity with
our upbringing. Believe me I had a horrific childhood, but I refuse to let
it cloud my every judgment and action. I have definitely learned from my
parents mistakes, but I would be a fool to say that every decision they made
was wrong. >>>>
Some people Unschooling had troubled childhoods, but it is not universal. We
have people who are unschooling now who in their childhoods endured abuse,
whose parents were middle of the road, whose parents were loving, whose
parents punished, or not, whose parents were free thinkers, whose parents
were absent, even whose parents were unschoolers.
Looking at Unschooling through the lens of what to avoid is only one path to
get to what Unschooling actually is. Sometimes when people are first
learning about it, what it is *not* is easier to grasp.
<<<< I think very few of you can say that EVERYTHING, every moment
was just unbearable.>>>>
Is anyone saying this? Sweeping generalizations tend to be rare from long
time Unschoolers. There is a long way between "unbearable" and "pretty darn
good but I can still do better".
<<<Maybe I'm reading too much in to your post, but I'm really offended that
you could just blow off my opinion in such a manner. If I wanted to be
blown off I would go back to school.>>>
I'm not sure which part of the post I was blowing off, since there were a
lot of issues touched on in the whole post, unless you just mean your
friends' notion as expressed above. I'm never trying to offend anyone,
indeed I have been surprised on the few occasions that I have done so. From
my end I only look at ideas that are presented, some of which I may continue
to challenge, just as some of mine will be.
Would someone please repost the list guidelines? Yesterday I cleared my
Deleted Items folder so I no longer have them.
Robyn L. Coburn
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doesn't really matter? You "sound" very offended by my observations. Who
are you, exactly to tell me that my observations are nonsense and that they
don't mean much.>>>>
I'm saying that one person's experience, or two other people's opposite
experience, is not necessarily typical, or universal, or enough information
to base an Unschooling principle upon - although it might be!
I was referring to the theory you told us *your friends* developed,
apparently based entirely on their specific experience in contrast to yours,
that if only they had been controlled more by their parents they would not
have smoked so much. One idea behind it that could worth discussing for
Unschoolers is what happens when parents are controlling, and children feel
the need to act secretively.
<<<As far as statistically goes I thought Unschoolers were anti
statistics anyway.>>>
Did you? My experience on this and other Unschooling lists is that when
people cite studies or statistics, other list members ask penetrating
questions and ask people to quote their sources. Another question that
people ask a lot is whether the children referred to in studies were
Unschooled or Schooled, as this makes the biggest difference in comparing to
our collective experiences with any particular study results.
Many people come to these lists and talk about their personal experiences
with their own children with words like "If I didn't make him stop my son
would just do nothing but play video games all day".
If people's personal experience is only of controlling or only of schools or
only of having to hide things they wanted to do from their parents, they
come to specific conclusions about how the world works. When people come to
these lists they get the combined experience of many others who are doing
things a different way, and have different conclusions.
<<<I have a nagging question. Why is it that, for the most part, I hear a
lot about how terrible our parents were and that their decisions in regards
to raising us were all wrong? There seems to be soooo much negativity with
our upbringing. Believe me I had a horrific childhood, but I refuse to let
it cloud my every judgment and action. I have definitely learned from my
parents mistakes, but I would be a fool to say that every decision they made
was wrong. >>>>
Some people Unschooling had troubled childhoods, but it is not universal. We
have people who are unschooling now who in their childhoods endured abuse,
whose parents were middle of the road, whose parents were loving, whose
parents punished, or not, whose parents were free thinkers, whose parents
were absent, even whose parents were unschoolers.
Looking at Unschooling through the lens of what to avoid is only one path to
get to what Unschooling actually is. Sometimes when people are first
learning about it, what it is *not* is easier to grasp.
<<<< I think very few of you can say that EVERYTHING, every moment
was just unbearable.>>>>
Is anyone saying this? Sweeping generalizations tend to be rare from long
time Unschoolers. There is a long way between "unbearable" and "pretty darn
good but I can still do better".
<<<Maybe I'm reading too much in to your post, but I'm really offended that
you could just blow off my opinion in such a manner. If I wanted to be
blown off I would go back to school.>>>
I'm not sure which part of the post I was blowing off, since there were a
lot of issues touched on in the whole post, unless you just mean your
friends' notion as expressed above. I'm never trying to offend anyone,
indeed I have been surprised on the few occasions that I have done so. From
my end I only look at ideas that are presented, some of which I may continue
to challenge, just as some of mine will be.
Would someone please repost the list guidelines? Yesterday I cleared my
Deleted Items folder so I no longer have them.
Robyn L. Coburn
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G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
Robyn,
I, maybe unjustly, think that when someone asks, "were they Unschooled"
it actually means it doesn't count if they weren't. Like somehow if a child
was raised with parents who forbade smoking doesn't count in the opinion
pole. No one likes to be controlled, but can you at all see that someone
who's parents said no to smoking, maybe, just maybe smoked less than the
kids parents who said yes. This would give the kid who smokes less a little
better chance at quitting when they wanted to. I am not saying tell all
kids not to smoke, heck I don't tell my daughter that. What I'm saying is
that I don't see my parents as being evil for not allowing it, and yes I do
know that you didn't say they were evil.
I did take offense to your post because you were calling my observation
nonsense. A total stranger in cyberspace hurt my feelings. I just
shouldn't take it so personally I guess.
I had a crappy childhood, but that's not why I Unschool. I Unschool
because the public school system sucks and I can't bare to put my kids
through it. I am so open to every and any conversation that my kids want to
have with me.
Haven't you or anyone else ever looked back on their childhood and said
you know my parents were real jerks about a certain situation, but they had
my best interest in mind. Do you think that any Unschooling kids have
looked back and said gee I wish my parents would have put their foot down a
little more? Maybe I wouldn't have....
There's a lot of maybe's in homeschooling/Unschooling and well in life in
general I guess.
I don't know if you were saying I wasn't following group guidelines by
suggesting they be posted again, but I hope you weren't. I don't want to
feel like I can't say what I want to say. That's the blowing off I was
referring to. Like my opinion didn't seem to matter.
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Robyn Coburn [mailto:dezigna@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 4:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
<<<<So what you're saying is that my life experience with this issue
doesn't really matter? You "sound" very offended by my observations. Who
are you, exactly to tell me that my observations are nonsense and that they
don't mean much.>>>>
I'm saying that one person's experience, or two other people's opposite
experience, is not necessarily typical, or universal, or enough information
to base an Unschooling principle upon - although it might be!
I was referring to the theory you told us *your friends* developed,
apparently based entirely on their specific experience in contrast to yours,
that if only they had been controlled more by their parents they would not
have smoked so much. One idea behind it that could worth discussing for
Unschoolers is what happens when parents are controlling, and children feel
the need to act secretively.
<<<As far as statistically goes I thought Unschoolers were anti
statistics anyway.>>>
Did you? My experience on this and other Unschooling lists is that when
people cite studies or statistics, other list members ask penetrating
questions and ask people to quote their sources. Another question that
people ask a lot is whether the children referred to in studies were
Unschooled or Schooled, as this makes the biggest difference in comparing to
our collective experiences with any particular study results.
Many people come to these lists and talk about their personal experiences
with their own children with words like "If I didn't make him stop my son
would just do nothing but play video games all day".
If people's personal experience is only of controlling or only of schools or
only of having to hide things they wanted to do from their parents, they
come to specific conclusions about how the world works. When people come to
these lists they get the combined experience of many others who are doing
things a different way, and have different conclusions.
<<<I have a nagging question. Why is it that, for the most part, I hear a
lot about how terrible our parents were and that their decisions in regards
to raising us were all wrong? There seems to be soooo much negativity with
our upbringing. Believe me I had a horrific childhood, but I refuse to let
it cloud my every judgment and action. I have definitely learned from my
parents mistakes, but I would be a fool to say that every decision they made
was wrong. >>>>
Some people Unschooling had troubled childhoods, but it is not universal. We
have people who are unschooling now who in their childhoods endured abuse,
whose parents were middle of the road, whose parents were loving, whose
parents punished, or not, whose parents were free thinkers, whose parents
were absent, even whose parents were unschoolers.
Looking at Unschooling through the lens of what to avoid is only one path to
get to what Unschooling actually is. Sometimes when people are first
learning about it, what it is *not* is easier to grasp.
<<<< I think very few of you can say that EVERYTHING, every moment
was just unbearable.>>>>
Is anyone saying this? Sweeping generalizations tend to be rare from long
time Unschoolers. There is a long way between "unbearable" and "pretty darn
good but I can still do better".
<<<Maybe I'm reading too much in to your post, but I'm really offended that
you could just blow off my opinion in such a manner. If I wanted to be
blown off I would go back to school.>>>
I'm not sure which part of the post I was blowing off, since there were a
lot of issues touched on in the whole post, unless you just mean your
friends' notion as expressed above. I'm never trying to offend anyone,
indeed I have been surprised on the few occasions that I have done so. From
my end I only look at ideas that are presented, some of which I may continue
to challenge, just as some of mine will be.
Would someone please repost the list guidelines? Yesterday I cleared my
Deleted Items folder so I no longer have them.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.735 / Virus Database: 489 - Release Date: 8/6/2004
Yahoo! Groups Links
I, maybe unjustly, think that when someone asks, "were they Unschooled"
it actually means it doesn't count if they weren't. Like somehow if a child
was raised with parents who forbade smoking doesn't count in the opinion
pole. No one likes to be controlled, but can you at all see that someone
who's parents said no to smoking, maybe, just maybe smoked less than the
kids parents who said yes. This would give the kid who smokes less a little
better chance at quitting when they wanted to. I am not saying tell all
kids not to smoke, heck I don't tell my daughter that. What I'm saying is
that I don't see my parents as being evil for not allowing it, and yes I do
know that you didn't say they were evil.
I did take offense to your post because you were calling my observation
nonsense. A total stranger in cyberspace hurt my feelings. I just
shouldn't take it so personally I guess.
I had a crappy childhood, but that's not why I Unschool. I Unschool
because the public school system sucks and I can't bare to put my kids
through it. I am so open to every and any conversation that my kids want to
have with me.
Haven't you or anyone else ever looked back on their childhood and said
you know my parents were real jerks about a certain situation, but they had
my best interest in mind. Do you think that any Unschooling kids have
looked back and said gee I wish my parents would have put their foot down a
little more? Maybe I wouldn't have....
There's a lot of maybe's in homeschooling/Unschooling and well in life in
general I guess.
I don't know if you were saying I wasn't following group guidelines by
suggesting they be posted again, but I hope you weren't. I don't want to
feel like I can't say what I want to say. That's the blowing off I was
referring to. Like my opinion didn't seem to matter.
AnnMarie
-----Original Message-----
From: Robyn Coburn [mailto:dezigna@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 4:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [unschoolingbasics] Conflict of Belief Question
<<<<So what you're saying is that my life experience with this issue
doesn't really matter? You "sound" very offended by my observations. Who
are you, exactly to tell me that my observations are nonsense and that they
don't mean much.>>>>
I'm saying that one person's experience, or two other people's opposite
experience, is not necessarily typical, or universal, or enough information
to base an Unschooling principle upon - although it might be!
I was referring to the theory you told us *your friends* developed,
apparently based entirely on their specific experience in contrast to yours,
that if only they had been controlled more by their parents they would not
have smoked so much. One idea behind it that could worth discussing for
Unschoolers is what happens when parents are controlling, and children feel
the need to act secretively.
<<<As far as statistically goes I thought Unschoolers were anti
statistics anyway.>>>
Did you? My experience on this and other Unschooling lists is that when
people cite studies or statistics, other list members ask penetrating
questions and ask people to quote their sources. Another question that
people ask a lot is whether the children referred to in studies were
Unschooled or Schooled, as this makes the biggest difference in comparing to
our collective experiences with any particular study results.
Many people come to these lists and talk about their personal experiences
with their own children with words like "If I didn't make him stop my son
would just do nothing but play video games all day".
If people's personal experience is only of controlling or only of schools or
only of having to hide things they wanted to do from their parents, they
come to specific conclusions about how the world works. When people come to
these lists they get the combined experience of many others who are doing
things a different way, and have different conclusions.
<<<I have a nagging question. Why is it that, for the most part, I hear a
lot about how terrible our parents were and that their decisions in regards
to raising us were all wrong? There seems to be soooo much negativity with
our upbringing. Believe me I had a horrific childhood, but I refuse to let
it cloud my every judgment and action. I have definitely learned from my
parents mistakes, but I would be a fool to say that every decision they made
was wrong. >>>>
Some people Unschooling had troubled childhoods, but it is not universal. We
have people who are unschooling now who in their childhoods endured abuse,
whose parents were middle of the road, whose parents were loving, whose
parents punished, or not, whose parents were free thinkers, whose parents
were absent, even whose parents were unschoolers.
Looking at Unschooling through the lens of what to avoid is only one path to
get to what Unschooling actually is. Sometimes when people are first
learning about it, what it is *not* is easier to grasp.
<<<< I think very few of you can say that EVERYTHING, every moment
was just unbearable.>>>>
Is anyone saying this? Sweeping generalizations tend to be rare from long
time Unschoolers. There is a long way between "unbearable" and "pretty darn
good but I can still do better".
<<<Maybe I'm reading too much in to your post, but I'm really offended that
you could just blow off my opinion in such a manner. If I wanted to be
blown off I would go back to school.>>>
I'm not sure which part of the post I was blowing off, since there were a
lot of issues touched on in the whole post, unless you just mean your
friends' notion as expressed above. I'm never trying to offend anyone,
indeed I have been surprised on the few occasions that I have done so. From
my end I only look at ideas that are presented, some of which I may continue
to challenge, just as some of mine will be.
Would someone please repost the list guidelines? Yesterday I cleared my
Deleted Items folder so I no longer have them.
Robyn L. Coburn
---
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Yahoo! Groups Links
TreeGoddess
On Aug 8, 2004, at 6:31 PM, G&M Contracting Inc., Kenneth Gillilan
wrote:
unschooling list there are people here that want to learn about
UNschooling and how it might affect their children/family. If stories
of children - especially "negative" ones - are posted it helps to know
right off the bat if these are stories of children who attended schools
or if they are about unschooled children. I hope that makes sense. :)
-Tracy-
wrote:
> [I, maybe unjustly, think that when someone asks, "were theyNo, it doesn't mean that, BUT it does help to clarify the story. On an
> Unschooled"
> it actually means it doesn't count if they weren't. ]
unschooling list there are people here that want to learn about
UNschooling and how it might affect their children/family. If stories
of children - especially "negative" ones - are posted it helps to know
right off the bat if these are stories of children who attended schools
or if they are about unschooled children. I hope that makes sense. :)
-Tracy-
Robyn Coburn
<<< I, maybe unjustly, think that when someone asks, "were they
Unschooled" it actually means it doesn't count if they weren't. >>>
It makes a difference to how children *probably* relate to their parents.
Most Unschoolers of long standing do not create systems of communicating
with their children where secrecy or deception are a big part of their life.
For many Unschoolers the concept of "permission" is one that will be hotly
discussed.
<<< Like somehow if a child was raised with parents who forbade smoking
doesn't count in the opinion pole. >>>
Were we taking a poll? You told your story about you and your two friends.
Some other people told their quitting stories. Once again: I was commenting
that *your friends'* theory, not *your* opinion, was probably not viable,
especially since it was based on the experiences of only three people.
Most of the time Unschoolers are utilizing other strategies for dealing with
conflicting desires than "forbidding" some behavior. Nor does "I'd better
give you permission because I can't trust you anyway" feature big in the
thinking process of Unschoolers.
Some people have told stories of how, as Unschoolers, they have dealt with
their children's desire to smoke, or engage in other undesirable behaviors.
That is much more helpful for other people seeking to learn about
Unschooling, than stories about third parties, who aren't/weren't ever
unschoolers. On the other hand, be happy - your story sparked a lot of great
discussion and helpful ideas about this broader issue that we will probably
all have to deal with as our children get older.
<<<<Do you think that any Unschooling kids have
looked back and said gee I wish my parents would have put their foot down a
little more? Maybe I wouldn't have....>>>
My daughter is too young for me to ask her about that. Other people may have
something to relate. Also, there is a teen discussion board on
www.unschooling.com . Maybe you would get an answer to this question there.
Nowhere in Unschooling is there a recommendation that we leave our almost
adult children to sink or swim by their own "bad" choices. Most of the time
the recommendation is to be a lot more proactive and supportive.
<<<<I don't know if you were saying I wasn't following group guidelines by
suggesting they be posted again, but I hope you weren't. I don't want to
feel like I can't say what I want to say. That's the blowing off I was
referring to. Like my opinion didn't seem to matter.>>>>
I wanted to quote the part about not posting what you don't want held up to
examination, and I wanted to do so accurately. Maybe this paraphrase will
do. (I also want to have them on file, but deleted them, and this reminded
me that I had done so.)
Just because we say something doesn't mean everyone will agree. If your
opinion truly did not matter, maybe no-one would bother responding at all. I
think when people tell a story that brings up ideas that are pertinent to
Unschooling, then that is a good thing.
Robyn L. Coburn
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Unschooled" it actually means it doesn't count if they weren't. >>>
It makes a difference to how children *probably* relate to their parents.
Most Unschoolers of long standing do not create systems of communicating
with their children where secrecy or deception are a big part of their life.
For many Unschoolers the concept of "permission" is one that will be hotly
discussed.
<<< Like somehow if a child was raised with parents who forbade smoking
doesn't count in the opinion pole. >>>
Were we taking a poll? You told your story about you and your two friends.
Some other people told their quitting stories. Once again: I was commenting
that *your friends'* theory, not *your* opinion, was probably not viable,
especially since it was based on the experiences of only three people.
Most of the time Unschoolers are utilizing other strategies for dealing with
conflicting desires than "forbidding" some behavior. Nor does "I'd better
give you permission because I can't trust you anyway" feature big in the
thinking process of Unschoolers.
Some people have told stories of how, as Unschoolers, they have dealt with
their children's desire to smoke, or engage in other undesirable behaviors.
That is much more helpful for other people seeking to learn about
Unschooling, than stories about third parties, who aren't/weren't ever
unschoolers. On the other hand, be happy - your story sparked a lot of great
discussion and helpful ideas about this broader issue that we will probably
all have to deal with as our children get older.
<<<<Do you think that any Unschooling kids have
looked back and said gee I wish my parents would have put their foot down a
little more? Maybe I wouldn't have....>>>
My daughter is too young for me to ask her about that. Other people may have
something to relate. Also, there is a teen discussion board on
www.unschooling.com . Maybe you would get an answer to this question there.
Nowhere in Unschooling is there a recommendation that we leave our almost
adult children to sink or swim by their own "bad" choices. Most of the time
the recommendation is to be a lot more proactive and supportive.
<<<<I don't know if you were saying I wasn't following group guidelines by
suggesting they be posted again, but I hope you weren't. I don't want to
feel like I can't say what I want to say. That's the blowing off I was
referring to. Like my opinion didn't seem to matter.>>>>
I wanted to quote the part about not posting what you don't want held up to
examination, and I wanted to do so accurately. Maybe this paraphrase will
do. (I also want to have them on file, but deleted them, and this reminded
me that I had done so.)
Just because we say something doesn't mean everyone will agree. If your
opinion truly did not matter, maybe no-one would bother responding at all. I
think when people tell a story that brings up ideas that are pertinent to
Unschooling, then that is a good thing.
Robyn L. Coburn
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[email protected]
In a message dated 8/8/2004 5:44:38 PM Central Standard Time,
gmcontractinginc@... writes:
I, maybe unjustly, think that when someone asks, "were they Unschooled"
it actually means it doesn't count if they weren't. Like somehow if a child
was raised with parents who forbade smoking doesn't count in the opinion
pole.
~~~
It's not that it doesn't count. It's just that the data can be seen in a
new light. If it's not from the unschooling perspective, how valuable can it
be to unschooling people?
Most studies about children are done on kids who go to school, simply
because more kids go to school than are unschooled. Heck, most studies about
HOMESCHOOLERS don't include unschoolers at all. School or unschool is a huge
factor. The statistics about how many children come home from school to empty
houses (latchkey children) simply don't apply to unschoolers. The rate of
juvenile crime is highest between 3 and 5 pm. But it's not the unschoolers
getting into mischief. It's the latchkey children. Simply irrelevant to the
unschooling perspective.
It's important to note that when applying statitistics to unschoolers.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gmcontractinginc@... writes:
I, maybe unjustly, think that when someone asks, "were they Unschooled"
it actually means it doesn't count if they weren't. Like somehow if a child
was raised with parents who forbade smoking doesn't count in the opinion
pole.
~~~
It's not that it doesn't count. It's just that the data can be seen in a
new light. If it's not from the unschooling perspective, how valuable can it
be to unschooling people?
Most studies about children are done on kids who go to school, simply
because more kids go to school than are unschooled. Heck, most studies about
HOMESCHOOLERS don't include unschoolers at all. School or unschool is a huge
factor. The statistics about how many children come home from school to empty
houses (latchkey children) simply don't apply to unschoolers. The rate of
juvenile crime is highest between 3 and 5 pm. But it's not the unschoolers
getting into mischief. It's the latchkey children. Simply irrelevant to the
unschooling perspective.
It's important to note that when applying statitistics to unschoolers.
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]