giving, spending, finances
Susan Maguire
Hi Everyone,
I've been reading through Joyce's and Sandra's sites and am finding a lot of my thinking regarding spending and buying things for the kids challenged. I'm feeling I need to be more lenient but where do you draw the line when your kids are really young and could potentially bankrupt you (okay, that's an exaggeration).
I'll give an example and I'd love to hear how others would have handled it. Yesterday, I was in a stationery store with my boys. My five year old adores anything to do with paper, pens, receipt books, envelopes, anything official looking. I often buy him all kinds of things like this. He was looking for a specific type of sticky label that a friend had. In his roaming he found a self-inking "Take Out" stamp (for a restaurant, I suppose). He liked it. It cost $30 dollars. "Mommy can I have it?" Well I'm thinking to myself, "I'm supposed to say yes, right?" But how can I?! Dilemma. DH would choke if I came home with it. I'd have to lie about the price if he asked <g> and for absolute sure ds would play with it for two days max and then it would land in his craft box forgotten. Ds is just scratching the surface of understanding the prices of things and value (emotional or otherwise). Just. He adds and subtracts any numbers up to five (I know this from playing Monopoly Junior
with him).
So I said, "Is there anything else that you could pick that you'd get more use out of?" Next to the stamp he spied a mini-stapler - he's been wanting his own stapler for awhile, something cuter than my desk stapler which he uses all the time. $6. He loves it, he's happy, we go home. Do I feel good about it? Not really, a niggling voice is saying so what do the hard-core RUNners do (athletes, you are). This week my ds also asked if we could buy a mini-bike, a chainsaw, a tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
Warmly, Susan
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
I've been reading through Joyce's and Sandra's sites and am finding a lot of my thinking regarding spending and buying things for the kids challenged. I'm feeling I need to be more lenient but where do you draw the line when your kids are really young and could potentially bankrupt you (okay, that's an exaggeration).
I'll give an example and I'd love to hear how others would have handled it. Yesterday, I was in a stationery store with my boys. My five year old adores anything to do with paper, pens, receipt books, envelopes, anything official looking. I often buy him all kinds of things like this. He was looking for a specific type of sticky label that a friend had. In his roaming he found a self-inking "Take Out" stamp (for a restaurant, I suppose). He liked it. It cost $30 dollars. "Mommy can I have it?" Well I'm thinking to myself, "I'm supposed to say yes, right?" But how can I?! Dilemma. DH would choke if I came home with it. I'd have to lie about the price if he asked <g> and for absolute sure ds would play with it for two days max and then it would land in his craft box forgotten. Ds is just scratching the surface of understanding the prices of things and value (emotional or otherwise). Just. He adds and subtracts any numbers up to five (I know this from playing Monopoly Junior
with him).
So I said, "Is there anything else that you could pick that you'd get more use out of?" Next to the stamp he spied a mini-stapler - he's been wanting his own stapler for awhile, something cuter than my desk stapler which he uses all the time. $6. He loves it, he's happy, we go home. Do I feel good about it? Not really, a niggling voice is saying so what do the hard-core RUNners do (athletes, you are). This week my ds also asked if we could buy a mini-bike, a chainsaw, a tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
Warmly, Susan
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
Julie Hampton
When this happens to me in the store- like girls want a sheet of stickers for $3 I say "this costs too much lets find different stickers that cost less" then we go looking and sometimes they forget what we were looking for. When I say this they usually say "ok" or the 4 yr old says "how much is it"
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Maguire<mailto:asmb65@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:31 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] giving, spending, finances
Hi Everyone,
I've been reading through Joyce's and Sandra's sites and am finding a lot of my thinking regarding spending and buying things for the kids challenged. I'm feeling I need to be more lenient but where do you draw the line when your kids are really young and could potentially bankrupt you (okay, that's an exaggeration).
I'll give an example and I'd love to hear how others would have handled it. Yesterday, I was in a stationery store with my boys. My five year old adores anything to do with paper, pens, receipt books, envelopes, anything official looking. I often buy him all kinds of things like this. He was looking for a specific type of sticky label that a friend had. In his roaming he found a self-inking "Take Out" stamp (for a restaurant, I suppose). He liked it. It cost $30 dollars. "Mommy can I have it?" Well I'm thinking to myself, "I'm supposed to say yes, right?" But how can I?! Dilemma. DH would choke if I came home with it. I'd have to lie about the price if he asked <g> and for absolute sure ds would play with it for two days max and then it would land in his craft box forgotten. Ds is just scratching the surface of understanding the prices of things and value (emotional or otherwise). Just. He adds and subtracts any numbers up to five (I know this from playing Monopoly Junior
with him).
So I said, "Is there anything else that you could pick that you'd get more use out of?" Next to the stamp he spied a mini-stapler - he's been wanting his own stapler for awhile, something cuter than my desk stapler which he uses all the time. $6. He loves it, he's happy, we go home. Do I feel good about it? Not really, a niggling voice is saying so what do the hard-core RUNners do (athletes, you are). This week my ds also asked if we could buy a mini-bike, a chainsaw, a tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
Warmly, Susan
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com<http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
-----Original Message-----
From: Susan Maguire <asmb65@...>
I'll give an example and I'd love to hear how others would have handled
it.
Yesterday, I was in a stationery store with my boys. My five year old
adores
anything to do with paper, pens, receipt books, envelopes, anything
official
looking. I often buy him all kinds of things like this. He was looking
for a
specific type of sticky label that a friend had. In his roaming he
found a
self-inking "Take Out" stamp (for a restaurant, I suppose). He liked
it. It cost
$30 dollars. "Mommy can I have it?" Well I'm thinking to myself, "I'm
supposed
to say yes, right?" But how can I?!
-=-=-=-=-
How about instead of "supposed to say yes" you try "want to find a way
to meet his needs."
I would get an eraser or ten and MAKE stamps. That's what he WANTS,
right?
-=-=-=-=-
So I said, "Is there anything else that you could pick that you'd get
more use
out of?" Next to the stamp he spied a mini-stapler - he's been wanting
his own
stapler for awhile, something cuter than my desk stapler which he uses
all the
time. $6. He loves it, he's happy, we go home.
-=-=-=-
Cool.
-=-=-=-=-
Do I feel good about it? Not
really, a niggling voice is saying so what do the hard-core RUNners do
(athletes, you are). This week my ds also asked if we could buy a
mini-bike, a
chainsaw, a tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
-=-=-=-=-
Do you really think we buy our kids whatever they ask for? All the time?
It really IS about finding a way to meet his need. The need may be
addressed in other ways. Like with the erasers as stamps.
Go to a mini-bike store and look around. Ask to sit on one.
Go to a hardware store, look at chainsaws. See how heavy they are. Note
how dull the chains actually are. Maybe find someone who is cutting
down a tree and go watch.
Go to the tractor store. Compare the sizes and what each can do. Ask a
farmer for a ride.
Go to an air show. Go inside a helicopter.
Ask each of these people/owners how much their "toys" cost. $5.9
million for a helicopter---that's a wee bit more than our HOUSE! <g>
Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in a
helicopter? <G>
It's hard to understand the value of $$, but talking about how many
houses you could buy for the same amount of $$ might make more sense.
How many CD or video games or shoes could you buy for the price of one
_________? Start making small comparisons---that's how we *all* figure
out the value of $$.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
From: Susan Maguire <asmb65@...>
I'll give an example and I'd love to hear how others would have handled
it.
Yesterday, I was in a stationery store with my boys. My five year old
adores
anything to do with paper, pens, receipt books, envelopes, anything
official
looking. I often buy him all kinds of things like this. He was looking
for a
specific type of sticky label that a friend had. In his roaming he
found a
self-inking "Take Out" stamp (for a restaurant, I suppose). He liked
it. It cost
$30 dollars. "Mommy can I have it?" Well I'm thinking to myself, "I'm
supposed
to say yes, right?" But how can I?!
-=-=-=-=-
How about instead of "supposed to say yes" you try "want to find a way
to meet his needs."
I would get an eraser or ten and MAKE stamps. That's what he WANTS,
right?
-=-=-=-=-
So I said, "Is there anything else that you could pick that you'd get
more use
out of?" Next to the stamp he spied a mini-stapler - he's been wanting
his own
stapler for awhile, something cuter than my desk stapler which he uses
all the
time. $6. He loves it, he's happy, we go home.
-=-=-=-
Cool.
-=-=-=-=-
Do I feel good about it? Not
really, a niggling voice is saying so what do the hard-core RUNners do
(athletes, you are). This week my ds also asked if we could buy a
mini-bike, a
chainsaw, a tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
-=-=-=-=-
Do you really think we buy our kids whatever they ask for? All the time?
It really IS about finding a way to meet his need. The need may be
addressed in other ways. Like with the erasers as stamps.
Go to a mini-bike store and look around. Ask to sit on one.
Go to a hardware store, look at chainsaws. See how heavy they are. Note
how dull the chains actually are. Maybe find someone who is cutting
down a tree and go watch.
Go to the tractor store. Compare the sizes and what each can do. Ask a
farmer for a ride.
Go to an air show. Go inside a helicopter.
Ask each of these people/owners how much their "toys" cost. $5.9
million for a helicopter---that's a wee bit more than our HOUSE! <g>
Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in a
helicopter? <G>
It's hard to understand the value of $$, but talking about how many
houses you could buy for the same amount of $$ might make more sense.
How many CD or video games or shoes could you buy for the price of one
_________? Start making small comparisons---that's how we *all* figure
out the value of $$.
~Kelly
Kelly Lovejoy
Conference Coordinator
Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.
oum rayan
We do the same. If I come prepared to spend a little extra, I give my son a limit and help him find options that fit HIS budget. Deep down I don't believe in saying no, so if I didn't bring $ enough this trip, I'll say 'later', and make it up to him. That may take a couple days, but the fact that I don't forget helps prevent a meltdown in the store the next time I have to say 'later'. I'd like to add here that I am a thrifty shopper, and a practical toy-buyer, so my son doesn't usually get the very item he requested first. We work out a compromise.
Julie Hampton <wisdom1133@...> wrote: When this happens to me in the store- like girls want a sheet of stickers for $3 I say "this costs too much lets find different stickers that cost less" then we go looking and sometimes they forget what we were looking for. When I say this they usually say "ok" or the 4 yr old says "how much is it"
Julie Hampton <wisdom1133@...> wrote: When this happens to me in the store- like girls want a sheet of stickers for $3 I say "this costs too much lets find different stickers that cost less" then we go looking and sometimes they forget what we were looking for. When I say this they usually say "ok" or the 4 yr old says "how much is it"
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Maguire<mailto:asmb65@...>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:31 PM
Subject: [unschoolingbasics] giving, spending, finances
Hi Everyone,
I've been reading through Joyce's and Sandra's sites and am finding a lot of my thinking regarding spending and buying things for the kids challenged. I'm feeling I need to be more lenient but where do you draw the line when your kids are really young and could potentially bankrupt you (okay, that's an exaggeration).
I'll give an example and I'd love to hear how others would have handled it. Yesterday, I was in a stationery store with my boys. My five year old adores anything to do with paper, pens, receipt books, envelopes, anything official looking. I often buy him all kinds of things like this. He was looking for a specific type of sticky label that a friend had. In his roaming he found a self-inking "Take Out" stamp (for a restaurant, I suppose). He liked it. It cost $30 dollars. "Mommy can I have it?" Well I'm thinking to myself, "I'm supposed to say yes, right?" But how can I?! Dilemma. DH would choke if I came home with it. I'd have to lie about the price if he asked <g> and for absolute sure ds would play with it for two days max and then it would land in his craft box forgotten. Ds is just scratching the surface of understanding the prices of things and value (emotional or otherwise). Just. He adds and subtracts any numbers up to five (I know this from playing Monopoly Junior
with him).
So I said, "Is there anything else that you could pick that you'd get more use out of?" Next to the stamp he spied a mini-stapler - he's been wanting his own stapler for awhile, something cuter than my desk stapler which he uses all the time. $6. He loves it, he's happy, we go home. Do I feel good about it? Not really, a niggling voice is saying so what do the hard-core RUNners do (athletes, you are). This week my ds also asked if we could buy a mini-bike, a chainsaw, a tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
Warmly, Susan
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com<http://ca.answers.yahoo.com/>
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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Susan Maguire
Well it's good to know I'm at least somewhat on the right track.
When he asked for the stamp my first response was an excited, "Guess what? I think we have a whole bag of stamps from [cousins hand-me down box] at home!" But no, what he really wants is this particular very neat stamp. He probably likes the action of it, the stamp part disappearing then clicking back out all inked.
My biggest issues fall into the same bucket as Leslie (in NJ)'s. Dealing with issues that hit a real hot button. Especially where I feel that we all need to be doing something now in order to make the changes to make this a better world (or even just a world) 20 years from now. How do I hand my money to a cashier when I can tell from the label that this item was made in a sweat shop by child labour? Can I burden my 2 and 5-year-old with that decision and sadness of it. No.
Struggling with all this,
Susan
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
>I would get an eraser or ten and MAKE stamps. That's what he WANTS,right?
When he asked for the stamp my first response was an excited, "Guess what? I think we have a whole bag of stamps from [cousins hand-me down box] at home!" But no, what he really wants is this particular very neat stamp. He probably likes the action of it, the stamp part disappearing then clicking back out all inked.
>Go to a mini-bike store and look around. Ask to sit on one.He's helped operate a chain saw, sat on mini-bikes, sat on tractors, flown in a helicopter (a generous free flight after we helped a harried helicopter mechanic pack up a bunch of stuff at the airport during fire-fighting season). Now he wants his own! After the chain saw I helped him make a big one out of wood. He's happy with that now. I often talk about how many honey pails of quarters something would cost (he seems to have a concept of the relative value of a quarter).
>Go to a hardware store, look at chainsaws. See how heavy they are. Note
>how dull the chains actually are. Maybe find someone who is cutting
>down a tree and go watch.
>Go to the tractor store. Compare the sizes and what each can do. Ask a
>farmer for a ride.
>Go to an air show. Go inside a helicopter.
>Ask each of these people/owners how much their "toys" cost. $5.9
>million for a helicopter---that's a wee bit more than our HOUSE! <g>
>Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in a
>helicopter? <G>
My biggest issues fall into the same bucket as Leslie (in NJ)'s. Dealing with issues that hit a real hot button. Especially where I feel that we all need to be doing something now in order to make the changes to make this a better world (or even just a world) 20 years from now. How do I hand my money to a cashier when I can tell from the label that this item was made in a sweat shop by child labour? Can I burden my 2 and 5-year-old with that decision and sadness of it. No.
Struggling with all this,
Susan
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
Deb
Unschooling is NOT about Yes to everything. It's about evaluating
knee jerk reactions (yes and no) and finding where those are coming
from; it's also about removing arbitrarily determined rules and
boundaries. Budget is a REAL constraint, not an arbitrary one. We've
never had a problem looking at something with DS and saying "gee
that's pretty cool looking. Hmm it's also $30 - that's a bit much
for our money right now. Let's put that on the wish list (a real,
physically written down list when DS was younger, now it resides
more in his memory - an amazing memory at that lol) for next payday
and look for something else right now." Or, if we -had- the money
but it was earmarked for something else, we'd put that on the
table "well, I had been keeping $30 aside so we could go to the
movie on Monday. We can either buy this OR go to the movie but we
don't have the money right now for both. My choice would be the
movie since we could all go and get snacks and everything. What do
you think?" and we'd stand there in the store aisle and discuss pros
and cons of BOTH options plus any other things we could think of
(get a less expensive item and smuggle in our own snacks or get
fewer snacks or whatever). It made for really LONG grocery trips in
particular as we'd go along and see stuff that wasn't in the budget
as planned but could fit if we changed things a bit - e.g. "This
bubble kit looks really cool. Can we get it?" "That's pretty fun
looking. Let's see - it's $5. How about we note it down (I always
have a list and a pen in the grocery store) and come back to it?"
Then we'd finish the alloted shopping and I'd look at the total (I
keep a rough running total on said list with said pen) and see if
there was space to flat out buy that item. If there was (like if the
salmon we'd planned on looked really ugly so we skipped that),
great, we'd head back and get it. If there was no space, we'd look
at what was in the cart and see if there was any wiggle room -
"well, looks like we're right up to the edge of the grocery money.
We did get 3 boxes of cereal so we could have something we all
liked. If we put two back and get just one BIG bag of <brand>
cereal, we'd have enough for the bubbles. Which should we do?" By
then, the bubbles might still be important or they might have lost
their luster in favor of something else (a favorite cereal with a
promised "prize" inside; some ice cream; donuts; cottage cheese -
yes cottage cheese was one of DS' preferences one time - whatever).
One BIG thing is that whatever you offer (we could put these cereals
back to get the bubbles) you need to be willing to follow through
on - offering that as an option then pushing your own choice negates
the whole effort. If you offer a choice, you need to be okay with
whatever is chosen. If there's something totally off limits (we're
not buying that cute $15 dog toy - we don't have a dog!), make sure
it's not offered. (of course, some of those dog toys make cool kid
toys as well).
The result at our house is a 9 yr old who had birthday money plus
allowance in his pocket (roughly $60), looked at a $40 brand new
videogame and said "Gee this is $40 that's too expensive, let's look
for something else." And we found a less expensive and now favorite
game instead.
A helicopter? LOL he's got big aspirations doesn't he? That's where
you might say "Wow that'd be cool. What could we do if we actually
had a real helicopter?" and go with it, along with "They cost more
than our whole house (or whatever)" and "How about we go over to
<airport> and bring a picnic lunch and sit in the car and watch the
helicopters and planes" and "Well, a real helicopter is very
expensive but we could go to <dollar store> and see if they have any
littler ones that we could get for us to play with"
The paradigm shift between conventional thinking and unschooling
goes something like this:
conventional: we have to make examples of saying No to kids because
they have to learn that they can't have everything they want. they
need to buck up, deal with disappointment, learn to work for what
they want.
unschooling: Life has it's own real boundaries and parameters and
kids will run into them no matter what, it's our job to facilitate
as MUCH of what our family wants (grownups count too) as possible in
the circumstances, creative thinking is important, don't 'settle'
for less when more is possible
I know it was a big shining moment for my DH when he realized that
not only could we give DS things he wanted (when we had the money
for them) just because he wanted them BUT DH (and I) could also have
what we wanted just because we wanted it (when we had the money
available). All of his growing up he got birthday and holiday
presents and that was it - everything else was *earned*, with good
grades, extra chores, "proper" behavior, etc. (his family also hit a
really bad streak financially for quite a while so there were times
with no money available at all). To be able to get himself something
simply because he wanted it was part of healing the inside of him
that always felt like he was never "enough" (working hard enough,
being good enough, etc), always lacking something, a sense of want
not abundance. Something as simple as a $5 magnifying lense (we're
talking an 11" lense that can set wood on fire) really made his day
when he bought it.
And, too, simply having wants taken seriously can help with that
sense of abundance even IF you can't have the item (now or in the
foreseeable future).
--Deb
--Deb
knee jerk reactions (yes and no) and finding where those are coming
from; it's also about removing arbitrarily determined rules and
boundaries. Budget is a REAL constraint, not an arbitrary one. We've
never had a problem looking at something with DS and saying "gee
that's pretty cool looking. Hmm it's also $30 - that's a bit much
for our money right now. Let's put that on the wish list (a real,
physically written down list when DS was younger, now it resides
more in his memory - an amazing memory at that lol) for next payday
and look for something else right now." Or, if we -had- the money
but it was earmarked for something else, we'd put that on the
table "well, I had been keeping $30 aside so we could go to the
movie on Monday. We can either buy this OR go to the movie but we
don't have the money right now for both. My choice would be the
movie since we could all go and get snacks and everything. What do
you think?" and we'd stand there in the store aisle and discuss pros
and cons of BOTH options plus any other things we could think of
(get a less expensive item and smuggle in our own snacks or get
fewer snacks or whatever). It made for really LONG grocery trips in
particular as we'd go along and see stuff that wasn't in the budget
as planned but could fit if we changed things a bit - e.g. "This
bubble kit looks really cool. Can we get it?" "That's pretty fun
looking. Let's see - it's $5. How about we note it down (I always
have a list and a pen in the grocery store) and come back to it?"
Then we'd finish the alloted shopping and I'd look at the total (I
keep a rough running total on said list with said pen) and see if
there was space to flat out buy that item. If there was (like if the
salmon we'd planned on looked really ugly so we skipped that),
great, we'd head back and get it. If there was no space, we'd look
at what was in the cart and see if there was any wiggle room -
"well, looks like we're right up to the edge of the grocery money.
We did get 3 boxes of cereal so we could have something we all
liked. If we put two back and get just one BIG bag of <brand>
cereal, we'd have enough for the bubbles. Which should we do?" By
then, the bubbles might still be important or they might have lost
their luster in favor of something else (a favorite cereal with a
promised "prize" inside; some ice cream; donuts; cottage cheese -
yes cottage cheese was one of DS' preferences one time - whatever).
One BIG thing is that whatever you offer (we could put these cereals
back to get the bubbles) you need to be willing to follow through
on - offering that as an option then pushing your own choice negates
the whole effort. If you offer a choice, you need to be okay with
whatever is chosen. If there's something totally off limits (we're
not buying that cute $15 dog toy - we don't have a dog!), make sure
it's not offered. (of course, some of those dog toys make cool kid
toys as well).
The result at our house is a 9 yr old who had birthday money plus
allowance in his pocket (roughly $60), looked at a $40 brand new
videogame and said "Gee this is $40 that's too expensive, let's look
for something else." And we found a less expensive and now favorite
game instead.
A helicopter? LOL he's got big aspirations doesn't he? That's where
you might say "Wow that'd be cool. What could we do if we actually
had a real helicopter?" and go with it, along with "They cost more
than our whole house (or whatever)" and "How about we go over to
<airport> and bring a picnic lunch and sit in the car and watch the
helicopters and planes" and "Well, a real helicopter is very
expensive but we could go to <dollar store> and see if they have any
littler ones that we could get for us to play with"
The paradigm shift between conventional thinking and unschooling
goes something like this:
conventional: we have to make examples of saying No to kids because
they have to learn that they can't have everything they want. they
need to buck up, deal with disappointment, learn to work for what
they want.
unschooling: Life has it's own real boundaries and parameters and
kids will run into them no matter what, it's our job to facilitate
as MUCH of what our family wants (grownups count too) as possible in
the circumstances, creative thinking is important, don't 'settle'
for less when more is possible
I know it was a big shining moment for my DH when he realized that
not only could we give DS things he wanted (when we had the money
for them) just because he wanted them BUT DH (and I) could also have
what we wanted just because we wanted it (when we had the money
available). All of his growing up he got birthday and holiday
presents and that was it - everything else was *earned*, with good
grades, extra chores, "proper" behavior, etc. (his family also hit a
really bad streak financially for quite a while so there were times
with no money available at all). To be able to get himself something
simply because he wanted it was part of healing the inside of him
that always felt like he was never "enough" (working hard enough,
being good enough, etc), always lacking something, a sense of want
not abundance. Something as simple as a $5 magnifying lense (we're
talking an 11" lense that can set wood on fire) really made his day
when he bought it.
And, too, simply having wants taken seriously can help with that
sense of abundance even IF you can't have the item (now or in the
foreseeable future).
--Deb
--Deb
[email protected]
In a message dated 6/22/2007 6:05:33 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
asmb65@... writes:
This week my ds also asked if we could buy a mini-bike, a chainsaw, a
tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
*I* say, that I am really sorry we can't, but that we simply don't have the
money to spend right now on that. I keep it simple and clear. When I am able
and I CAN, I do say yes to as many things as are asked for - but I also have a
responsibility to use the household money as wisely as possible. My kids
seem to really get this. They know, Julian especially (who is 4) that we do
often get a little something, so when I have to say "no" it's reasonable, and
that his ants and needs are respected. My gut feeling, is that this is really
the goal. Always saying yes to things like items and toys and what-not, no
matter the consequences, seems like an odd suggestion for any parenting style. It
seems that what we are trying to impart is a sense of fun, learning, the
support to help our children think critically, t always think about why we say
"no" to something and how we can alter that to either a different word or a
different response. So many of us conventionally trained folks say "no" for
reasons that if one thinks critically about, make no sense. I see *this* as the
deeper part of the issue. Simply saying yes to all things all the time really
doesn't make sense to me (like the request for a helicopter...you can
discuss how purchasing one is not affordable, but you can mention that flight
lessons are available, and that maybe we can't purchase one, but maybe we should
look into having a scenic ride, or becoming a pilot). I want the few "no's" I
say to make sense and be respectful and thoughtful answers. I say no to many
things, but I always try to discuss it, why I say "no" and all issues
surrounding it. Am I getting the unschooling parenting? I think so. I feel good,
open and fairly honest, lol, I know I'm not perfect and that's cool with me.
What I AM doing is becoming more and more comfortable with following my children
as they lead me, with my style, with my terminology, with myself. It's an
ongoing process, lol! I think the more I do so, the more I'll be able to use
more "yes" type language, or rather more, "Why not?" style of responding to the
kids. I'm getting better. But I'm also comfy with my times I say "no."
Hope that makes sense, I really rambled here!
Karen
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
asmb65@... writes:
This week my ds also asked if we could buy a mini-bike, a chainsaw, a
tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
*I* say, that I am really sorry we can't, but that we simply don't have the
money to spend right now on that. I keep it simple and clear. When I am able
and I CAN, I do say yes to as many things as are asked for - but I also have a
responsibility to use the household money as wisely as possible. My kids
seem to really get this. They know, Julian especially (who is 4) that we do
often get a little something, so when I have to say "no" it's reasonable, and
that his ants and needs are respected. My gut feeling, is that this is really
the goal. Always saying yes to things like items and toys and what-not, no
matter the consequences, seems like an odd suggestion for any parenting style. It
seems that what we are trying to impart is a sense of fun, learning, the
support to help our children think critically, t always think about why we say
"no" to something and how we can alter that to either a different word or a
different response. So many of us conventionally trained folks say "no" for
reasons that if one thinks critically about, make no sense. I see *this* as the
deeper part of the issue. Simply saying yes to all things all the time really
doesn't make sense to me (like the request for a helicopter...you can
discuss how purchasing one is not affordable, but you can mention that flight
lessons are available, and that maybe we can't purchase one, but maybe we should
look into having a scenic ride, or becoming a pilot). I want the few "no's" I
say to make sense and be respectful and thoughtful answers. I say no to many
things, but I always try to discuss it, why I say "no" and all issues
surrounding it. Am I getting the unschooling parenting? I think so. I feel good,
open and fairly honest, lol, I know I'm not perfect and that's cool with me.
What I AM doing is becoming more and more comfortable with following my children
as they lead me, with my style, with my terminology, with myself. It's an
ongoing process, lol! I think the more I do so, the more I'll be able to use
more "yes" type language, or rather more, "Why not?" style of responding to the
kids. I'm getting better. But I'm also comfy with my times I say "no."
Hope that makes sense, I really rambled here!
Karen
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
meals - that widget would cost 6 kid's meals, that over there is only
half a kid's meal, just a cheeseburger really not even the fries and
soda,... It was a familiar thing, the numbers of a size he could deal
with (approx $3). And, anything more than about 10 kid's meals was "a
lot" to him.
--Deb
>LOL when DS was younger, we'd compare things to Burger King kid's
> It's hard to understand the value of $$, but talking about how >many
> houses you could buy for the same amount of $$ might make more
>sense.
> How many CD or video games or shoes could you buy for the price of
>one
> _________? Start making small comparisons---that's how we *all*
>figure
> out the value of $$.
meals - that widget would cost 6 kid's meals, that over there is only
half a kid's meal, just a cheeseburger really not even the fries and
soda,... It was a familiar thing, the numbers of a size he could deal
with (approx $3). And, anything more than about 10 kid's meals was "a
lot" to him.
--Deb
Su Penn
On Jun 22, 2007, at 1:55 PM, Susan Maguire wrote:
do you assume that all things created in a certain country (for
instance China) are produced by children working in sweatshops? That
could be a faulty assumption.
I don't want to argue international politics, exactly...just to say
that what we think we know, what we are so sure about--like "this toy
was produced in a sweatshop by child labor" may be _wrong_. It can
even be argued--quite persuasively--that by helping China's economy
grow, we improve the lot of children in that country.
For anyone interested, below is part of a report I wrote up for a
friend when I read the book "Why Globalization Works" last winter
(she doesn't have time to read so she likes me to tell her about the
books I read). I don't want to derail the list, but when we're making
decisions about how to respond to our children based on our beliefs
about how the world works and what is good and bad, it's important to
keep in mind that we could be wrong.
Su
To my friend Adrianne:
I've been reading "Why Globalization Works" by Martin Wolf, and
regretting it. First, it is the most dense and difficult book I have
tackled since last year's history-of-markets-and-portfolio-theory
crash course. But mainly I am regretting it because it is turning me
into an opponent of trade barriers and an advocate of free trade.
Because trade barriers are bad and free trade is good, and I am way
too tired and lazy and overwhelmed by all the info I have taken in
and not fully assimilated to give you a big rundown of it, but I will
give you some highlights.
I remember when I read "The Travels of a T-Shirt in the Global
Economy," the author of that book mentioned that the kinds of
manufacturing being done now in China for low wages relative to wages
in the west is one step on a known trajectory of development, and
it's a step that can't be skipped. But that author didn't go into
detail. Wolf does. Here are some of the details:
1. You can't go right to more complex, less labor-intensive, and
higher-paid industries in a developing nation because the population
of the developing nation is neither skilled nor productive enough.
The kind of low-skilled, labor-intensive manufacturing being done in
China now has already been done in Japan and Korea, to name two
places, neither of which does that kind of manufacturing anymore--
they've moved on to more complex and sophisticated manufacturing that
requires experienced and skilled managers and workers. If you try to
pay western-style wages in a place that is at the level of
development China is at right now, for instance, no one will start
businesses there because the cost of labor will make the inevitable
mistakes and failures of infant industries too costly to bear.
2. Wages are low in China because the alternative--agricultural
labor--is even worse paid and yet there are still plenty of people to
do it. Wages for factory work will not rise in China until enough
people have migrated from the rural areas to the developed areas in
search of the improved opportunities there. When there is an
agricultural labor shortage, agriculture wages will rise and so will
factory wages, probably very quickly when it does happen (this has
happened in Japan and Korea). This is part of why what is happening
in China is a step that can't be skipped. But it may be a prolonged
step because of internal barriers on migration from rural areas. [A
note added just now: I recently heard a report on NPR about how
factories in China are beginning to have difficulty finding workers
at the same low wages, so this upward wage pressure is beginning to
happen there, apparently.]
Two really interesting China factoids to remember the next time
someone tells you, as someone recently told me, "I don't let my
children buy toys made in China. I tell them that some kid just like
them had to work in a factory in China to make that toy, and if they
buy that toy, it hurts that child."
1. The percentage of the Chinese people living in extreme poverty
dropped from 33% in 1990 to 18% in 1999. This 9-year drop is
described by Wolf as the most rapid and extensive decline in poverty
rates that has ever been recorded. Ever. Anywhere.
2. The percentage of Chinese children aged 10-14 who are in the labor
force dropped from 30% in 1980 to 8% in the late 1990s.
Both of these changes have been driven by China's liberalizing
economic policies and the growth of manufacturing for export.
Wolf says, "People don't put their children to work unless poverty
drives them to do so. The best way to get children out of the
workforce is to reduce poverty." Simply implementing a policy against
child labor can do more harm than good if poverty rates are not
improved and other options are not made available. For instance,
under international pressure to eliminate child labor in Bangladeshi
factories where goods were being produced for Wal-Mart, children were
laid off from Bangladesh factories. The numbers of children engaged
in prostitution in Bangladesh consequently quadrupled.
> . How do I hand my money to a cashier when I can tell from theWow, you can tell that from a label? Does it say right on there, or
> label that this item was made in a sweat shop by child labour?
do you assume that all things created in a certain country (for
instance China) are produced by children working in sweatshops? That
could be a faulty assumption.
I don't want to argue international politics, exactly...just to say
that what we think we know, what we are so sure about--like "this toy
was produced in a sweatshop by child labor" may be _wrong_. It can
even be argued--quite persuasively--that by helping China's economy
grow, we improve the lot of children in that country.
For anyone interested, below is part of a report I wrote up for a
friend when I read the book "Why Globalization Works" last winter
(she doesn't have time to read so she likes me to tell her about the
books I read). I don't want to derail the list, but when we're making
decisions about how to respond to our children based on our beliefs
about how the world works and what is good and bad, it's important to
keep in mind that we could be wrong.
Su
To my friend Adrianne:
I've been reading "Why Globalization Works" by Martin Wolf, and
regretting it. First, it is the most dense and difficult book I have
tackled since last year's history-of-markets-and-portfolio-theory
crash course. But mainly I am regretting it because it is turning me
into an opponent of trade barriers and an advocate of free trade.
Because trade barriers are bad and free trade is good, and I am way
too tired and lazy and overwhelmed by all the info I have taken in
and not fully assimilated to give you a big rundown of it, but I will
give you some highlights.
I remember when I read "The Travels of a T-Shirt in the Global
Economy," the author of that book mentioned that the kinds of
manufacturing being done now in China for low wages relative to wages
in the west is one step on a known trajectory of development, and
it's a step that can't be skipped. But that author didn't go into
detail. Wolf does. Here are some of the details:
1. You can't go right to more complex, less labor-intensive, and
higher-paid industries in a developing nation because the population
of the developing nation is neither skilled nor productive enough.
The kind of low-skilled, labor-intensive manufacturing being done in
China now has already been done in Japan and Korea, to name two
places, neither of which does that kind of manufacturing anymore--
they've moved on to more complex and sophisticated manufacturing that
requires experienced and skilled managers and workers. If you try to
pay western-style wages in a place that is at the level of
development China is at right now, for instance, no one will start
businesses there because the cost of labor will make the inevitable
mistakes and failures of infant industries too costly to bear.
2. Wages are low in China because the alternative--agricultural
labor--is even worse paid and yet there are still plenty of people to
do it. Wages for factory work will not rise in China until enough
people have migrated from the rural areas to the developed areas in
search of the improved opportunities there. When there is an
agricultural labor shortage, agriculture wages will rise and so will
factory wages, probably very quickly when it does happen (this has
happened in Japan and Korea). This is part of why what is happening
in China is a step that can't be skipped. But it may be a prolonged
step because of internal barriers on migration from rural areas. [A
note added just now: I recently heard a report on NPR about how
factories in China are beginning to have difficulty finding workers
at the same low wages, so this upward wage pressure is beginning to
happen there, apparently.]
Two really interesting China factoids to remember the next time
someone tells you, as someone recently told me, "I don't let my
children buy toys made in China. I tell them that some kid just like
them had to work in a factory in China to make that toy, and if they
buy that toy, it hurts that child."
1. The percentage of the Chinese people living in extreme poverty
dropped from 33% in 1990 to 18% in 1999. This 9-year drop is
described by Wolf as the most rapid and extensive decline in poverty
rates that has ever been recorded. Ever. Anywhere.
2. The percentage of Chinese children aged 10-14 who are in the labor
force dropped from 30% in 1980 to 8% in the late 1990s.
Both of these changes have been driven by China's liberalizing
economic policies and the growth of manufacturing for export.
Wolf says, "People don't put their children to work unless poverty
drives them to do so. The best way to get children out of the
workforce is to reduce poverty." Simply implementing a policy against
child labor can do more harm than good if poverty rates are not
improved and other options are not made available. For instance,
under international pressure to eliminate child labor in Bangladeshi
factories where goods were being produced for Wal-Mart, children were
laid off from Bangladesh factories. The numbers of children engaged
in prostitution in Bangladesh consequently quadrupled.
Chris
This discussion has been very helpful to me. Thanks, Kelly, for the
distinction between "finding a way to meet needs" vs. "supposed to
say yes." That's such a helpful way for me to think about it.
I'm struggling with a bit of a twist on this topic. I want to
say "yes" to my kids but I am having trouble accepting all the stuff
that comes into our house. It just seems like a constant flow of
tiny little toys that the kids use for a few days and then forget
about but aren't willing to part with. We give them their own $$ to
spend weekly and we recently increased the amount b/c I felt like we
really weren't giving them enough to work with so they couldn't hope
to do anything but buy $1 toys. (They're 4 and 7.) But even with the
increased amount, they really don't seem to be able to wait and save
it so now we end up with cheap (not well made) $5 toys!
This sort of dovetails with the earlier McDonald's discussion b/c I
my husband and I have made a value judgment for ourselves about
bringing more material things into our lives. It's not that we don't
buy things, we're just trying to be a lot more thoughtful about what
we buy and why. So I am not sure how to work with this value that we
have without foisting it onto our children.
We give our kids their own money b/c I want them to have it as a
tool to use and so they'll have money that we don't have any say
over. But then I find it terribly hard to let them do as they wish
with it b/c at this point, it means a constant flow of stuff into
our lives which we don't want!
Any thoughts on this appreciated!
Chris
distinction between "finding a way to meet needs" vs. "supposed to
say yes." That's such a helpful way for me to think about it.
I'm struggling with a bit of a twist on this topic. I want to
say "yes" to my kids but I am having trouble accepting all the stuff
that comes into our house. It just seems like a constant flow of
tiny little toys that the kids use for a few days and then forget
about but aren't willing to part with. We give them their own $$ to
spend weekly and we recently increased the amount b/c I felt like we
really weren't giving them enough to work with so they couldn't hope
to do anything but buy $1 toys. (They're 4 and 7.) But even with the
increased amount, they really don't seem to be able to wait and save
it so now we end up with cheap (not well made) $5 toys!
This sort of dovetails with the earlier McDonald's discussion b/c I
my husband and I have made a value judgment for ourselves about
bringing more material things into our lives. It's not that we don't
buy things, we're just trying to be a lot more thoughtful about what
we buy and why. So I am not sure how to work with this value that we
have without foisting it onto our children.
We give our kids their own money b/c I want them to have it as a
tool to use and so they'll have money that we don't have any say
over. But then I find it terribly hard to let them do as they wish
with it b/c at this point, it means a constant flow of stuff into
our lives which we don't want!
Any thoughts on this appreciated!
Chris
--- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Susan Maguire <asmb65@...>
>
>
> I'll give an example and I'd love to hear how others would have
handled
> it.
> Yesterday, I was in a stationery store with my boys. My five year
old
> adores
> anything to do with paper, pens, receipt books, envelopes,
anything
> official
> looking. I often buy him all kinds of things like this. He was
looking
> for a
> specific type of sticky label that a friend had. In his roaming he
> found a
> self-inking "Take Out" stamp (for a restaurant, I suppose). He
liked
> it. It cost
> $30 dollars. "Mommy can I have it?" Well I'm thinking to
myself, "I'm
> supposed
> to say yes, right?" But how can I?!
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> How about instead of "supposed to say yes" you try "want to find a
way
> to meet his needs."
>
> I would get an eraser or ten and MAKE stamps. That's what he
WANTS,
> right?
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> So I said, "Is there anything else that you could pick that you'd
get
> more use
> out of?" Next to the stamp he spied a mini-stapler - he's been
wanting
> his own
> stapler for awhile, something cuter than my desk stapler which he
uses
> all the
> time. $6. He loves it, he's happy, we go home.
>
> -=-=-=-
>
> Cool.
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Do I feel good about it? Not
> really, a niggling voice is saying so what do the hard-core
RUNners do
> (athletes, you are). This week my ds also asked if we could buy a
> mini-bike, a
> chainsaw, a tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
>
> -=-=-=-=-
>
> Do you really think we buy our kids whatever they ask for? All the
time?
>
> It really IS about finding a way to meet his need. The need may be
> addressed in other ways. Like with the erasers as stamps.
>
> Go to a mini-bike store and look around. Ask to sit on one.
> Go to a hardware store, look at chainsaws. See how heavy they are.
Note
> how dull the chains actually are. Maybe find someone who is
cutting
> down a tree and go watch.
> Go to the tractor store. Compare the sizes and what each can do.
Ask a
> farmer for a ride.
> Go to an air show. Go inside a helicopter.
>
> Ask each of these people/owners how much their "toys" cost. $5.9
> million for a helicopter---that's a wee bit more than our HOUSE!
<g>
> Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in
a
> helicopter? <G>
>
> It's hard to understand the value of $$, but talking about how
many
> houses you could buy for the same amount of $$ might make more
sense.
> How many CD or video games or shoes could you buy for the price of
one
> _________? Start making small comparisons---that's how we *all*
figure
> out the value of $$.
>
>
> ~Kelly
>
> Kelly Lovejoy
> Conference Coordinator
> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>
>
>
>
_____________________________________________________________________
___
> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
free
> from AOL at AOL.com.
>
asmb65
> I'm struggling with a bit of a twist on this topic. I want tostuff
> say "yes" to my kids but I am having trouble accepting all the
> that comes into our house. It just seems like a constant flow ofwe
> tiny little toys that the kids use for a few days and then forget
> about but aren't willing to part with. We give them their own $$ to
> spend weekly and we recently increased the amount b/c I felt like
> really weren't giving them enough to work with so they couldn'thope
> to do anything but buy $1 toys. (They're 4 and 7.) But even withthe
> increased amount, they really don't seem to be able to wait andsave
> it so now we end up with cheap (not well made) $5 toys!One way I deal with this is by bringing the boys shopping at garage
>
sales and thrift shops. My oldest remarked to his dad that he can get
way more at a garage sale than in a store for the same amount of
money. I had not said anything to him in this regard, he realized it
himself. This helped me realize that these stores and sales were the
best places to bring the kids for them to spend their precious coins.
And then when we are finished with the cheap toys, sports equipment,
binders, you name it, we can return them to the thrift shop for
someone else to buy.
I must admit, I do midnight culls of the stuff they haven't played
with in ages that I'm pretty sure they've forgotten. I won't do this
much longer but I'll have to come up with some ideas from ds1 as to
what to do with things that aren't getting used anymore.
Susan
Susan
> It just seems like a constant flow ofI recognize this problem! A solution we came up with that has worked
> tiny little toys that the kids use for a few days and then forget
> about but aren't willing to part with.
well is for the to kids pick a charity/cause and donate the toys to
them about twice a year. In the past they've picked women & children's
shelters where the kids have only a few, if any, possessions. Once
they filled 2 boxes to give to a family that lost everything in a
house fire. Last time they picked an agency that collects items for
young mothers. They're extremely generous when they're picking out
things to give to kids who have very little.
The other thing they willingly do is gather up stuff and "trade" it in
at a thrift store (like Goodwill) by donating it and then using a few
dollars to find some "new" things. And when they grow tired of those
items they'll do it again.
-- Susan
Schuyler
Linnaea loves stuffed animals, loves them. There are more stuffed animals in
our house than I know. But they are hers, they aren't mine. It is her stuff,
not mine, that she is bringing into our house, the house that is each of
ours. Maybe it will help if you really examine who "we" is and see that it
is an issue for you and maybe for your husband, but not for the other people
who share your home.
If I can look at the things she is buying as her things, and her choices for
her use and her pleasure, than it is separate from my things, my choices, my
house.
The other day Simon bought a yu-gi-oh duel disk, something that I've been
resistant to him buying for a long time. Whenever he would discover it again
in Toys R Us I would distract him, or mention something else that I knew he
wanted. He's been wearing his duel disk for 3 days, challenging me for duels
all over the place. He loves it. What I saw as an awkward hunk of plastic,
he sees as a connection to one of his favorite shows and a part of the story
telling he does. So, all the distraction and movement away from the duel
disk that I did kept him from this aspect of his storytelling, this part of
his relationship with yu-gi-oh.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
our house than I know. But they are hers, they aren't mine. It is her stuff,
not mine, that she is bringing into our house, the house that is each of
ours. Maybe it will help if you really examine who "we" is and see that it
is an issue for you and maybe for your husband, but not for the other people
who share your home.
If I can look at the things she is buying as her things, and her choices for
her use and her pleasure, than it is separate from my things, my choices, my
house.
The other day Simon bought a yu-gi-oh duel disk, something that I've been
resistant to him buying for a long time. Whenever he would discover it again
in Toys R Us I would distract him, or mention something else that I knew he
wanted. He's been wearing his duel disk for 3 days, challenging me for duels
all over the place. He loves it. What I saw as an awkward hunk of plastic,
he sees as a connection to one of his favorite shows and a part of the story
telling he does. So, all the distraction and movement away from the duel
disk that I did kept him from this aspect of his storytelling, this part of
his relationship with yu-gi-oh.
Schuyler
www.waynforth.blogspot.com
>
> We give our kids their own money b/c I want them to have it as a
> tool to use and so they'll have money that we don't have any say
> over. But then I find it terribly hard to let them do as they wish
> with it b/c at this point, it means a constant flow of stuff into
> our lives which we don't want!
>
> Any thoughts on this appreciated!
>
> Chris
>
> --- In [email protected], kbcdlovejo@... wrote:
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Susan Maguire <asmb65@...>
>>
>>
>> I'll give an example and I'd love to hear how others would have
> handled
>> it.
>> Yesterday, I was in a stationery store with my boys. My five year
> old
>> adores
>> anything to do with paper, pens, receipt books, envelopes,
> anything
>> official
>> looking. I often buy him all kinds of things like this. He was
> looking
>> for a
>> specific type of sticky label that a friend had. In his roaming he
>> found a
>> self-inking "Take Out" stamp (for a restaurant, I suppose). He
> liked
>> it. It cost
>> $30 dollars. "Mommy can I have it?" Well I'm thinking to
> myself, "I'm
>> supposed
>> to say yes, right?" But how can I?!
>>
>> -=-=-=-=-
>>
>> How about instead of "supposed to say yes" you try "want to find a
> way
>> to meet his needs."
>>
>> I would get an eraser or ten and MAKE stamps. That's what he
> WANTS,
>> right?
>>
>> -=-=-=-=-
>>
>> So I said, "Is there anything else that you could pick that you'd
> get
>> more use
>> out of?" Next to the stamp he spied a mini-stapler - he's been
> wanting
>> his own
>> stapler for awhile, something cuter than my desk stapler which he
> uses
>> all the
>> time. $6. He loves it, he's happy, we go home.
>>
>> -=-=-=-
>>
>> Cool.
>>
>> -=-=-=-=-
>>
>> Do I feel good about it? Not
>> really, a niggling voice is saying so what do the hard-core
> RUNners do
>> (athletes, you are). This week my ds also asked if we could buy a
>> mini-bike, a
>> chainsaw, a tractor, a helicopter. So what do you say?????
>>
>> -=-=-=-=-
>>
>> Do you really think we buy our kids whatever they ask for? All the
> time?
>>
>> It really IS about finding a way to meet his need. The need may be
>> addressed in other ways. Like with the erasers as stamps.
>>
>> Go to a mini-bike store and look around. Ask to sit on one.
>> Go to a hardware store, look at chainsaws. See how heavy they are.
> Note
>> how dull the chains actually are. Maybe find someone who is
> cutting
>> down a tree and go watch.
>> Go to the tractor store. Compare the sizes and what each can do.
> Ask a
>> farmer for a ride.
>> Go to an air show. Go inside a helicopter.
>>
>> Ask each of these people/owners how much their "toys" cost. $5.9
>> million for a helicopter---that's a wee bit more than our HOUSE!
> <g>
>> Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in
> a
>> helicopter? <G>
>>
>> It's hard to understand the value of $$, but talking about how
> many
>> houses you could buy for the same amount of $$ might make more
> sense.
>> How many CD or video games or shoes could you buy for the price of
> one
>> _________? Start making small comparisons---that's how we *all*
> figure
>> out the value of $$.
>>
>>
>> ~Kelly
>>
>> Kelly Lovejoy
>> Conference Coordinator
>> Live and Learn Unschooling Conference
>> http://www.LiveandLearnConference.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> ___
>> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
> free
>> from AOL at AOL.com.
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
> Ask each of these people/owners how much their "toys" cost. $5.9We gave dh an hour tour/lesson in a small 2-seater helicopter for Father's Day. He's hooked <g>. And not only did he look up how to get his pilot's license as soon as we got home, but asked his instructor how much a helicopter like the one he flew cost. When he told me it was $200,000, I thought "well, that's about a 1/3 of the cost of a house around here..." and further thought "we could rent/live in a smaller house with a big garage, if having a helicopter would make him happier <BWG>." I'm always trying to figure out what I could live with/live without so we can be as happy as we can. Sometimes, it requires a complete shift of what I thought were priorities.
> million for a helicopter---that's a wee bit more than our HOUSE!
> Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in a
> helicopter?
BTW, it cost about 5 CDs/DVDs for the helicopter lesson...:-)
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~I think it is important for her to know me, who I am, and that,
among other things, I live by certain values and convictions. ~~
It's true, that we can honor our own preferences while still
respecting our children's, but have you thought about the fact that a
lot of our "values" and "convictions" would go right out the window if
we didn't live in such luxury?
Some of the discussions about vegetarianism and what companies to
support etc...are completely pointless when one lives in poverty.
Suddenly your "values" are all about surviving and you can't be as
uptight with those when one is worried about the next meal.
I realize most of us have a fridge full of food, a comfortable house
and such, but recently I've realized that a lot of my high ideals are
a result of living in complete luxury for most of my life. Makes one
think about "values" differently.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
among other things, I live by certain values and convictions. ~~
It's true, that we can honor our own preferences while still
respecting our children's, but have you thought about the fact that a
lot of our "values" and "convictions" would go right out the window if
we didn't live in such luxury?
Some of the discussions about vegetarianism and what companies to
support etc...are completely pointless when one lives in poverty.
Suddenly your "values" are all about surviving and you can't be as
uptight with those when one is worried about the next meal.
I realize most of us have a fridge full of food, a comfortable house
and such, but recently I've realized that a lot of my high ideals are
a result of living in complete luxury for most of my life. Makes one
think about "values" differently.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Jennifer Barber
Thank you Ren for making this point.
We made the decision to unschool about a week ago. With endless resources online and through the internet, and a house stocked full of books, puzzles, games, movies, etc- I have no doubt we can meet the kids' learning needs. And while it appears there may be little if any distinction between unschooling and "unparenting", there still is some in my mind. And that may be due to money (or our lack thereof).
The "unparenting" (I'm still unsure about what the official term is) has a ring of elitism to it. And take what I say with a grain of salt, because my exposure to all this has been exactly one week. But I've been reading posts to my husband over the past week, and we've come to the conclusion that we just flat can't afford to live this lifestyle.
Times were good when I was working, so we have a lot of "things" leftover from that era. It's hard to come to our home and think of the kids as deprived. We did maintain a subscription to netflix, so the kids get to take turns picking movies. They get to choose what to wear from what they have, and in general we try to accommodate their requests when we can. (There are small and creative ways we've been able to do this.) But we get Angelfood (boxes of food that is picked out by someone else), which has been a lifesaver for us, but at the same time removes all choice as to what we eat from the equation. We eat what we get. All of us do. We don't have the gas money to go wherever we want, and we can't buy any new "things".
I like some of the things I've read in this thread. Someone suggested that it's a "want" the kids need fulfilled. Our challenge is to find a way to meet that want without spending any money at all. Sometimes the effort involved is all the kids need to know their desires are being respected, and that we hear their voices.
(I would say I'm giving my $.02, but we're watching every penny ;-)
:-) Jennifer (Ethan-9, Emily-4, Eliot-2 on Monday)
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~I think it is important for her to know me, who I am, and that,
among other things, I live by certain values and convictions. ~~
It's true, that we can honor our own preferences while still
respecting our children's, but have you thought about the fact that a
lot of our "values" and "convictions" would go right out the window if
we didn't live in such luxury?
Some of the discussions about vegetarianism and what companies to
support etc...are completely pointless when one lives in poverty.
Suddenly your "values" are all about surviving and you can't be as
uptight with those when one is worried about the next meal.
I realize most of us have a fridge full of food, a comfortable house
and such, but recently I've realized that a lot of my high ideals are
a result of living in complete luxury for most of my life. Makes one
think about "values" differently.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We made the decision to unschool about a week ago. With endless resources online and through the internet, and a house stocked full of books, puzzles, games, movies, etc- I have no doubt we can meet the kids' learning needs. And while it appears there may be little if any distinction between unschooling and "unparenting", there still is some in my mind. And that may be due to money (or our lack thereof).
The "unparenting" (I'm still unsure about what the official term is) has a ring of elitism to it. And take what I say with a grain of salt, because my exposure to all this has been exactly one week. But I've been reading posts to my husband over the past week, and we've come to the conclusion that we just flat can't afford to live this lifestyle.
Times were good when I was working, so we have a lot of "things" leftover from that era. It's hard to come to our home and think of the kids as deprived. We did maintain a subscription to netflix, so the kids get to take turns picking movies. They get to choose what to wear from what they have, and in general we try to accommodate their requests when we can. (There are small and creative ways we've been able to do this.) But we get Angelfood (boxes of food that is picked out by someone else), which has been a lifesaver for us, but at the same time removes all choice as to what we eat from the equation. We eat what we get. All of us do. We don't have the gas money to go wherever we want, and we can't buy any new "things".
I like some of the things I've read in this thread. Someone suggested that it's a "want" the kids need fulfilled. Our challenge is to find a way to meet that want without spending any money at all. Sometimes the effort involved is all the kids need to know their desires are being respected, and that we hear their voices.
(I would say I'm giving my $.02, but we're watching every penny ;-)
:-) Jennifer (Ethan-9, Emily-4, Eliot-2 on Monday)
Ren Allen <starsuncloud@...> wrote:
~~I think it is important for her to know me, who I am, and that,
among other things, I live by certain values and convictions. ~~
It's true, that we can honor our own preferences while still
respecting our children's, but have you thought about the fact that a
lot of our "values" and "convictions" would go right out the window if
we didn't live in such luxury?
Some of the discussions about vegetarianism and what companies to
support etc...are completely pointless when one lives in poverty.
Suddenly your "values" are all about surviving and you can't be as
uptight with those when one is worried about the next meal.
I realize most of us have a fridge full of food, a comfortable house
and such, but recently I've realized that a lot of my high ideals are
a result of living in complete luxury for most of my life. Makes one
think about "values" differently.:)
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
---------------------------------
You snooze, you lose. Get messages ASAP with AutoCheck
in the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Ren Allen
~~The "unparenting" (I'm still unsure about what the official term is)
has a ring of elitism to it.~~
Let me try to clear this up, maybe a little bit anyway.:)
"Unparenting" is a diragatory term, used by people who believe that
respecting your kids needs and desires, allowing them to sleep when
they're tired, eat what they like etc... means NOT being a parent.
They equate it to neglect basically. Which is not what we're
advocating here at all.
Nor are we advocating "buy anything and everything your kids want at
all costs", no, no, no. The entire point (which will be easier to pick
up on after reading discussions over the long-term, it's harder to
decipher after a week, truly) is simply giving our children the same
respect that the adults get.
Many of us believe that children should have the same access to the
world that we get as adults. I share the resources we have with them
equally.
I'll give some examples:
My oldest child has a girlfriend that live 1.5 hours away. I work
full-time and we don't have unlimited resources. But I know that if I
really, really wanted to see someone I would find a way. So we found a
way to get her up here several weekends. We did some creative problem
solving with friends that were doing driving anyway. I drove before or
after work some days...we made it work because it mattered to him.
I could have said "Well get a job then, I can't afford it" then
proceeded to buy art supplies I really wanted. That would be
hypocritical.
I try to find ways for us all to get our needs met. We all work
towards that end, most of the time. The occasional break-downs are
usually a good time for reflection and learning where we could do
better the next time.
We don't buy everything we want. We work within the very real budget
we have. But the kids needs and desires are taken seriously. The tools
they choose for exploring their world is something we believe is
important.
We trust them as intelligent human beings that get tired and hungry
and need help and assistance at times....but not control. Last night,
as I sat at this very computer, Jalen came in and said "I'm tired Mom,
come lay down with me now."
How many six year olds that have an arbitrary bed time (a time that is
convenient for the parents, not when the child is tired) will do that?
I NEVER would have asked to be put to bed as a child.
The results of trust are pretty well-balanced and trusting
individuals. Trust builds trust. FUnny eh? We're not saying "say yes
to everything" nor are we telling anyone to live outside of their
personal reality as far as money, resources and living situations.
We've lived in some pretty tiny, cheap places and driven beater cars
in the past. We've eaten beans and rice a lot too! Through those times
we still found ways to get access to most of the things the kids
wanted to do. Not Disneyworld maybe, but the day to day things
happened with some creative problem solving. :)
How we treat our children, the respect we give them and trust we're
willig to extend, has nothing to do with budget or the kind of shelter
or city or anything else in our daily lives. It's simply a choice.
It's not "unparenting". It's being the most connected, mindful and
gentle parent we can possibly be.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
has a ring of elitism to it.~~
Let me try to clear this up, maybe a little bit anyway.:)
"Unparenting" is a diragatory term, used by people who believe that
respecting your kids needs and desires, allowing them to sleep when
they're tired, eat what they like etc... means NOT being a parent.
They equate it to neglect basically. Which is not what we're
advocating here at all.
Nor are we advocating "buy anything and everything your kids want at
all costs", no, no, no. The entire point (which will be easier to pick
up on after reading discussions over the long-term, it's harder to
decipher after a week, truly) is simply giving our children the same
respect that the adults get.
Many of us believe that children should have the same access to the
world that we get as adults. I share the resources we have with them
equally.
I'll give some examples:
My oldest child has a girlfriend that live 1.5 hours away. I work
full-time and we don't have unlimited resources. But I know that if I
really, really wanted to see someone I would find a way. So we found a
way to get her up here several weekends. We did some creative problem
solving with friends that were doing driving anyway. I drove before or
after work some days...we made it work because it mattered to him.
I could have said "Well get a job then, I can't afford it" then
proceeded to buy art supplies I really wanted. That would be
hypocritical.
I try to find ways for us all to get our needs met. We all work
towards that end, most of the time. The occasional break-downs are
usually a good time for reflection and learning where we could do
better the next time.
We don't buy everything we want. We work within the very real budget
we have. But the kids needs and desires are taken seriously. The tools
they choose for exploring their world is something we believe is
important.
We trust them as intelligent human beings that get tired and hungry
and need help and assistance at times....but not control. Last night,
as I sat at this very computer, Jalen came in and said "I'm tired Mom,
come lay down with me now."
How many six year olds that have an arbitrary bed time (a time that is
convenient for the parents, not when the child is tired) will do that?
I NEVER would have asked to be put to bed as a child.
The results of trust are pretty well-balanced and trusting
individuals. Trust builds trust. FUnny eh? We're not saying "say yes
to everything" nor are we telling anyone to live outside of their
personal reality as far as money, resources and living situations.
We've lived in some pretty tiny, cheap places and driven beater cars
in the past. We've eaten beans and rice a lot too! Through those times
we still found ways to get access to most of the things the kids
wanted to do. Not Disneyworld maybe, but the day to day things
happened with some creative problem solving. :)
How we treat our children, the respect we give them and trust we're
willig to extend, has nothing to do with budget or the kind of shelter
or city or anything else in our daily lives. It's simply a choice.
It's not "unparenting". It's being the most connected, mindful and
gentle parent we can possibly be.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Meredith
--- In [email protected], "Ren Allen"
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
Revolution Will Not be Microwaved" which talks about underground
food movements and supporting local farms. There's one story about a
couple who decided to *only* eat foods grown within a hundred mile
radius for a year and discovered that in order to do it they would
have to give up being vegetarians. Most of what we vegetarians eat
is decidedly non-local. A lot of it is international *and* passes
through the hands of some very big businesses. That's not
necessarily a bad thing, but it does create a situation where
actually living some of my political values puts those values in
conflict.
Its a good read - I was pleasantly surprised by how much the
philosophy of the book mirrored the philosophy of unschooling. If
you're interested, here's the author's website:
http://www.wildfermentation.com/
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
<starsuncloud@...> wrote:
>> Some of the discussions about vegetarianism and what companies toThis is a good point. I just finished reading a book called "The
> support etc...are completely pointless when one lives in poverty.
> Suddenly your "values" are all about surviving and you can't be as
> uptight with those when one is worried about the next meal.
Revolution Will Not be Microwaved" which talks about underground
food movements and supporting local farms. There's one story about a
couple who decided to *only* eat foods grown within a hundred mile
radius for a year and discovered that in order to do it they would
have to give up being vegetarians. Most of what we vegetarians eat
is decidedly non-local. A lot of it is international *and* passes
through the hands of some very big businesses. That's not
necessarily a bad thing, but it does create a situation where
actually living some of my political values puts those values in
conflict.
Its a good read - I was pleasantly surprised by how much the
philosophy of the book mirrored the philosophy of unschooling. If
you're interested, here's the author's website:
http://www.wildfermentation.com/
---Meredith (Mo 5.5, Ray 13)
Ren Allen
~~That's not
necessarily a bad thing, but it does create a situation where
actually living some of my political values puts those values in
conflict.~~
Good things to ponder. I'm going to check out the book as I've been
very focused on sustainable food (which has little to do with organic)
and how to become more independant in regards to food.
It's really easy to get stuck thinking our values are "good" without
really looking at all the issues at play. It's really easy to get
stuck on our values when we live in a society that grants us so much
wealth!
"Values" are relative to situations in many cases. It's helpful to
look at the "what if's" sometimes to keep us grounded. I can't deny my
children their own learning-takes in regards to all these issues. They
deserve the same right to discover their "values" without all my
personal judgements...though they know my views on many issues.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
necessarily a bad thing, but it does create a situation where
actually living some of my political values puts those values in
conflict.~~
Good things to ponder. I'm going to check out the book as I've been
very focused on sustainable food (which has little to do with organic)
and how to become more independant in regards to food.
It's really easy to get stuck thinking our values are "good" without
really looking at all the issues at play. It's really easy to get
stuck on our values when we live in a society that grants us so much
wealth!
"Values" are relative to situations in many cases. It's helpful to
look at the "what if's" sometimes to keep us grounded. I can't deny my
children their own learning-takes in regards to all these issues. They
deserve the same right to discover their "values" without all my
personal judgements...though they know my views on many issues.
Ren
learninginfreedom.com
Rose
Su, I just wanted to say that you must be an awesome friend!
Especially if you are reading books like this for your friend!
and spending and such since our kids our getting to be almost grown
and we've been through this.
My husband and I are both self-employed and have to pay for our own
health insurance which is outrageous so we never have any extra money!
We have always included at least something for the kids allowance in
our budget so we knew they could experience the joy of buying
something of their very own no matter how small.
Each of our boys made different decisions about what they would do
with their money. The two older ones generally would decide to save
for awhile and then buy something when they had something saved up.
Our youngest, however, has always loved toys, especially electronics.
Everytime he was with me when I went to the store he always wanted to
go to the toy section and he always just had to buy something. It was
his money so he could do with it whatever he wanted. I did have a hard
time at first just letting him do that but I would discuss with him
the options he could have if he did save it up for a little while.
While he was still very young, he always decided to just go ahead an
buy something. It didn't take very long for him to learn that his
money was going to waste buying toys that would just break a day or
two after he made his purchase and he eventually began waiting a
little longer to make a purchase. I suggested that he could keep a
list of things he really wanted to buy and how much they cost so he
could save up for them. He did make lists in his head anyway. Now, my
biggest spender has the biggest bank account. He has saved his money
for a long time now and only spends it when there is something he
really, really wants. And he never really, really wants anything
without thinking over how long he will enjoy it, and being the son of
someone who sells things on ebay, how much he could sell it for when
he is done with it.
For me it was just trusting that he would learn from his experience.
He bought a lot of toys for 1.00 or 2.00 and got enjoyment out of them.
Especially if you are reading books like this for your friend!
> For anyone interested, below is part of a report I wrote up for aI also just wanted to add our families experience with kids, allowance
> friend when I read the book "Why Globalization Works" last winter
> (she doesn't have time to read so she likes me to tell her about the
> books I read).
and spending and such since our kids our getting to be almost grown
and we've been through this.
My husband and I are both self-employed and have to pay for our own
health insurance which is outrageous so we never have any extra money!
We have always included at least something for the kids allowance in
our budget so we knew they could experience the joy of buying
something of their very own no matter how small.
Each of our boys made different decisions about what they would do
with their money. The two older ones generally would decide to save
for awhile and then buy something when they had something saved up.
Our youngest, however, has always loved toys, especially electronics.
Everytime he was with me when I went to the store he always wanted to
go to the toy section and he always just had to buy something. It was
his money so he could do with it whatever he wanted. I did have a hard
time at first just letting him do that but I would discuss with him
the options he could have if he did save it up for a little while.
While he was still very young, he always decided to just go ahead an
buy something. It didn't take very long for him to learn that his
money was going to waste buying toys that would just break a day or
two after he made his purchase and he eventually began waiting a
little longer to make a purchase. I suggested that he could keep a
list of things he really wanted to buy and how much they cost so he
could save up for them. He did make lists in his head anyway. Now, my
biggest spender has the biggest bank account. He has saved his money
for a long time now and only spends it when there is something he
really, really wants. And he never really, really wants anything
without thinking over how long he will enjoy it, and being the son of
someone who sells things on ebay, how much he could sell it for when
he is done with it.
For me it was just trusting that he would learn from his experience.
He bought a lot of toys for 1.00 or 2.00 and got enjoyment out of them.
[email protected]
>>> Ask each of these people/owners how much their "toys" cost. $5.9We gave dh an hour tour/lesson in a small 2-seater helicopter for Father's
> million for a helicopter-- million for a helicopter--<WBR>-that's a
> Would he be willing for all of you to give up your home to live in a
> helicopter?
Day. He's hooked <g>. And not only did he look up how to get his pilot's
license as soon as we got home, but asked his instructor how much a helicopter
like the one he flew cost. When he told me it was $200,000, I thought "well,
that's about a 1/3 of the cost of a house around here..." and further thought
"we could rent/live in a smaller house with a big garage, if having a
helicopter would make him happier <BWG>." I'm always trying to figure out what I could
live with/live without so we can be as happy as we can. Sometimes, it
requires a complete shift of what I thought were priorities.<<<<<
What I love about this is that you're valuing a passion of your partner's --
not just the kids. I get concerned sometimes that many unschoolers focus so
much on the passions of their kids to the exclusion of the parents. Why
would a kid want to be an adult if it looks like you don't get to have fun and
follow your dreams anymore???
You probably won't end up purchasing a helicopter (but wouldn't it be cool
if you did?), but I have no doubt that you'll find ways to make those dreams
real. (And I am sitting here thinking that there have to be used helicopters
available, etc.)
Kathryn
************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
> What I love about this is that you're valuing a passion of your partner's --That's a good point. I've felt, at times, that the only thing I was modelling was drudgery and migraine headaches...<sigh>. Who would want to grow up to have that?
> not just the kids. I get concerned sometimes that many unschoolers focus so
> much on the passions of their kids to the exclusion of the parents. Why
> would a kid want to be an adult if it looks like you don't get to have fun and
> follow your dreams anymore???
You know, it was only after reading and reading on unschooling lists (and some wise advice from a friend) that I could see it was about the joyful honoring of everyone's needs/wants/dreams that tended to bring harmony and peace to our family. I *did* tend to focus more on my dd's desires and passions (and still do, to the extent that I am often the one to help make those things happen), but realized that my dh needed to be heard, too. And he does the same for me.
>I told him that I wrote to this list about my thinking of what I could do to make a
> You probably won't end up purchasing a helicopter (but wouldn't it be cool
> if you did?), but I have no doubt that you'll find ways to make those dreams
> real. (And I am sitting here thinking that there have to be used helicopters
> available, etc.)
helicopter dream happen and he put his arm around me and hugged me close. Just
that I was thinking about it made a difference to him. I realized that
sometimes the willingness to listen and think about possibilities is important
for both my dd and dh.
He *is* going to look into lessons, has talked to other friends who already fly
and are thinking about building their own helicopter (hmmm...maybe it's a good thing they're in Texas <g>).
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]